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Murdats
01-09-2010, 07:57 AM
So just like every other game forum with third party DRM this is the obligatory "No sale for you" thread, also to warn those who don't realise this game comes with

3 activation limit Starforce

because the store page doesn't mention it.
if steam will refund me this game (because there was no thread or store warning about it) then that is a lost sale from me, otherwise I guess I got suckered into buying a gimped game.

oto niel
01-09-2010, 08:31 AM
thank you for reporting this.

r3belsk
01-09-2010, 08:35 AM
what does this 3 activation limit Starforce mean?

Redshirt54
01-09-2010, 09:01 AM
Cheers for sharing this with everyone. I was on the fence about getting it (as i'd need a decent joystick as well to enjoy the game) but with draconian DRM they are not getting my money.

skullman86
01-09-2010, 09:15 AM
From what I was reading, you can deactivate the game to get your activations back and if you run out you just contact yuplay.com for more.I absolutely hate this kind of DRM, but telling people their game is completely useless after 3 installs is a bit misleading, blix.

blix2006
01-09-2010, 09:46 AM
any game with starforce is worthless.misleading is not telling people the danger of having it on your system

oto niel
01-09-2010, 10:07 AM
any game with starforce is worthless.misleading is not telling people the danger of having it on your system

agreed, it's not only the worthless drm, after all, if we are on steam, why one drm on top of another?, but the fact they that steam tries to hide this fact.

skullman86
01-09-2010, 10:09 AM
any game with starforce is worthless.misleading is not telling people the danger of having it on your system

My comment was regarding the install limit and the ability to get activations back.It isn't really that much of a silver lining, but some people can tolerate this kind of stuff and they have the right to know how it affects them.

Incognito_gbg
01-09-2010, 10:12 AM
I will not consider any purchase of this game anymore, until I am assured that this game no longer contains any DRM besides Steam.

Jimmy Damage
01-09-2010, 10:26 AM
Damn, just damn. They never learn...

Mavi222
01-09-2010, 10:34 AM
This game looked so awesome... graphics.. achievements.. controller support.. but then I went to forums to read that it have Starforce with 3 install limits -.-' no sale for me :(

Lacolo
01-09-2010, 10:43 AM
I was kinda interested in this game, as I love all WW2 stuff. Good thing I looked at the forums first before impulse buying.

mark92392
01-09-2010, 10:45 AM
Ding!

Thanks Murdats! NO SALE due to the odius Starforce drivers. Why have Starforce on Steam???

Every game they sell that has Starforce DRM the buyer should be made aware of this.

repeat! NO SALE

Sharkey
01-09-2010, 10:52 AM
Wow. I just read the glowing review on IGN, and someone in the comments pointed me here. Companies are still using Starforce? Amazing.

It is far-fetched, but possible, that the Steam people did not realize Starforce was in this game. (After all, have any of them commented on this yet?)

geckofish52
01-09-2010, 10:53 AM
yeah no way. this game even looked cool. bummer.

plus, its not like this game has steam as a drm already so... oh wait IT DOES

rejer133
01-09-2010, 10:57 AM
Noooooo i wanted this game so bad. No buy here :(

Ender1183
01-09-2010, 11:33 AM
Does anyone know if the demo has DRM? I just installed it with out thinking about it...:eek: Same thing happened to me with the bio shock demo. Oh well was thinking about geting this game. Extra DRM = no buy.

Twitchn
01-09-2010, 11:43 AM
If you want the game do what I did as is probably the best thing since it is going to be supported better is buy it direct from Yuplay.

skullman86
01-09-2010, 12:33 PM
Does anyone know if the demo has DRM? I just installed it with out thinking about it...:eek: Same thing happened to me with the bio shock demo. Oh well was thinking about geting this game. Extra DRM = no buy.

I didn't see anything starforce related in my registry so it might be clean.


For those of you that want this game, but not the DRM, I suggest you go to the yuplay forums and discuss DRMs there.Most of the people there seem ok with activation limits and I doubt the development team is paying much attention to this board.If your voice isn't heard, nothing will change.

Incognito_gbg
01-09-2010, 12:50 PM
I didn't see anything starforce related in my registry so it might be clean.


For those of you that want this game, but not the DRM, I suggest you go to the yuplay forums and discuss DRMs there.Most of the people there seem ok with activation limits and I doubt the development team is paying much attention to this board.If your voice isn't heard, nothing will change.

I have done that now. I will report back any answers I get from there.

Herodotus07
01-09-2010, 01:11 PM
Steam has an obligation to notify customers of this (installing a 3rd party software program without prior permission is illegal), and they have not done so. Poor show.
As for having to beg for more activations from Yuplay.com...forget it.

Patates
01-09-2010, 01:12 PM
Well i was thinking to get this game from steam

starforce ruins everything so no sale here..

Sharkfood
01-09-2010, 01:22 PM
Wow, I was actually going through the pages to buy this one but randomly decided to click the "Visit the forums" link to see if there were any crash/lockup bugs on Vista. Thank you to the original poster!

I would have NEVER imagined a for-Steam version would still carry Starforce DRM. This strictly prevents me from spending a dime on it. Heck, I boycotted X3 since the CD version had Starforce and that was enough to taint the developers from me 100%.

H8Cr1me
01-09-2010, 01:23 PM
I have been playing this game all night and I have to say, IGNORANCE IS BLISS!

simonjames1975
01-09-2010, 01:33 PM
I did notice a DRM when I installed it, did not know it was Starforce though. Launching the game I noticed a YUPlay app opened in my system tray. A bit pissed but not overlay so, I've been fortunate to have had no issues with DRMs before.

robert3353
01-09-2010, 01:41 PM
I am glad I had a pre sales question about this game that I wanted to ask which brought me to the forums. Thanks so much for your thread concerning the crap DRM forced on you if you buy this game. I have no pre sales questions now as I have no intention of ever supporting these lame developers ever. Even if they at some future time see the light and remove all their stupid DRM I will still never purchase any of their games. They have too much competition out there as far as I am concerned. I hope that someone out there cracks all DRM games and uploads them to bit torrent!!!!!
I know that this game is nothing like Wings of Prey but one bright spot that I found on Steam is World of Goo. In my opinion it is a really fun family oriented game with no war, gore or shooting. And by the way if you buy if directly form their website there is NO DRM of any kind and you get the Windows, Mac, and Linux versions of the game for the same 20 bucks that you spend here on steam and only get the pc version. The way I am and my feelings about DRM is that I will buy any game that is DRM free (to support the developers) even if I don't like the game personally and have no intention of playing it myself. Guess it is a political statement on my part voicing my opposition to DRM of any kind.
Robert B

oto niel
01-09-2010, 01:55 PM
Steam has an obligation to notify customers of this (installing a 3rd party software program without prior permission is illegal), and they have not done so. Poor show.
As for having to beg for more activations from Yuplay.com...forget it.

you need to ask yuplay for more activations??

omg should you run into trouble not two but three companies (gaijin, yuplay and steam) will be playing pingpong with the poor customer.

what kind of crazy business model is this???

robert3353
01-09-2010, 02:15 PM
Hello again,
If any of you are really serious about the comments concerning the DRM you might consider emailing the company directly. I found the parent company for the game Gaijin Entertainment by going to the Wings of Prey website. This is the contact info that they have on the Gaijin Entertainment site.

b.2 stroenie 2, Eniseyskaya str., 12th floor
129344, Moscow, Russian Federation.
Tel.,: (+7 499)189-25-48, 189-26-70, 189-41-76, 189-56-76, 189-56-85.

901 North Pitt str. Suite 325
Alexandria, VA 22314
Phone/fax: +1-888-227-7105

They also had the following link
If you have some general questions, please contact president - Anton Yudintsev

this is his email address "anton@gaijin.ru" <anton@gaijin.ru>

I just sent him an email voicing my opposition to their use of DRM

Incognito_gbg
01-09-2010, 02:32 PM
Hello again,
They also had the following link
If you have some general questions, please contact president - Anton Yudintsev

this is his email address "anton@gaijin.ru" <anton@gaijin.ru>

I just sent him an email voicing my opposition to their use of DRM

He is a regular poster in the yuplay forum about the game. The impression I get from his posts is that he is not overly concerned about the steam customers. I really hope that he posts an answer in my thread over there, but I don´t have any real hope anymore that they will adress the situation. And if they don´t, then ♥♥♥♥ it. I 40 games in my steam account, so I really do have enough games that I don´t have the beg the developers of another one to let me buy their game without being hassled by double layers of DRM for a game that is already cracked (and no, I won´t pirate it either).

fearlessfrog
01-09-2010, 02:38 PM
..not overly concerned about the steam customers..

It's amazing how often that happens with Steam or DRM or something with Sim / niche devs. A couple of times of forum'd or emailed a company about reconsidering and they basically laugh at you.

Not sure if it's a Russian / East European thing or not either (yeah, I know I shouldn't generalize) but they tend to think people complaining about 'rights' or such as a bit of a wacko...

I just keep thinking it'll basically come back and bite them eventually - I see if as basically throwing money/customers away...

Kradath
01-09-2010, 02:39 PM
As a matter of fairness it should be mentioned that your actications reset after a month, so basically you can acticate it 3 times a month and get more if you get in contact with them.

Don't remember when I installed a game 3 times within one month.

skullman86
01-09-2010, 02:49 PM
As a matter of fairness it should be mentioned that your actications reset after a month, so basically you can acticate it 3 times a month and get more if you get in contact with them.

Don't remember when I installed a game 3 times within one month.

why bother with activations then?

ametller
01-09-2010, 02:59 PM
As a matter of fairness it should be mentioned that your actications reset after a month, so basically you can acticate it 3 times a month and get more if you get in contact with them.

Don't remember when I installed a game 3 times within one month.

Are you really sure about this? Did a developer say so?

FubyDoo
01-09-2010, 04:05 PM
There is also an "activate.exe" program in the main folder.. if for some reason you change hardware etc.. just use it to deactivate the program and then reactivate it when done or moved to new hardware..no count against your 3 installs.

This game is to good to let any of this bother your purchase.. it really rocks and rolls.. dedicated server software is comming also.along with a mission editor..

skullman86
01-09-2010, 04:10 PM
This game is to good to let any of this bother your purchase...

and this is why developers and publishers do it.

Incognito_gbg
01-09-2010, 04:12 PM
This game is to good to let any of this bother your purchase.. it really rocks and rolls.. dedicated server software is comming also.along with a mission editor..

If its anything like Birds of Prey on PS3, then no. It isn´t. Its well worth 32€ if its DRM free, but its not good enough to accept Starforce. There is a reason that only russian and eastern developers use it nowadays.

Gentlemen?
01-09-2010, 04:19 PM
Argh!

I instantly bought this game the moment it came on Steam.

Aside from anticipation of enjoying the game. I felt pleased to be supporting a diminishing genre, and by way of a sale, to let the developers know it was the right decision to put the game on Steam.

Well guess what? It turns out they don't give a ♥♥♥♥ about me. Starforce... ♥♥♥♥ YOU

I have immediately asked for a refund.

Ranmaru
01-09-2010, 04:25 PM
STARFORCE = NO PURCHASE.

I was going to buy it, I'm glad I had a look at the forums beforehand.

H8Cr1me
01-09-2010, 04:27 PM
all this talk of DRM is putting this post in front of mine, dealing with more important issues, like missing Swastikas and $#!7. Please cease and desist.

fearlessfrog
01-09-2010, 04:38 PM
lol - 'Stop harping on about personal freedoms as I need my n-a-z-i symbols displayed!'

Incognito_gbg
01-09-2010, 04:55 PM
This is the answer from the developer. After this he closed my thread.

"The first answer and I hope, the last.
1. We are using FrontLine ProActive DRM, not StarForce.
It is done by the same guys, but it is completely different - it doesn't install ANY drivers or anyhow else affects Operating System, so can't lead to any hardware problems at all.
Simply, if the game is not running now, no any track in system from DRM is present.

2. Second, activations limit is not an actual limit. Activations will be increased upon request - all you have to do, is to register the game and send the message to support@yuplay.com. The only reason, why they are limited - because otherwise it would be simple way of playing game for thousands of players with one key.

I can't see ANY potential problems with DRM we used.
Thread is closed."

http://forum.yuplay.com/index.php?showtopic=871

I will now forget any ideas on buying this game, and move on to others. I don´t want to support these people.

Double layers of DRM is and will always be the wrong way.

oto niel
01-09-2010, 05:00 PM
This is the answer from the developer. After this he closed my thread.

"The first answer and I hope, the last.
1. We are using FrontLine ProActive DRM, not StarForce.
It is done by the same guys, but it is completely different - it doesn't install ANY drivers or anyhow else affects Operating System, so can't lead to any hardware problems at all.
Simply, if the game is not running now, no any track in system from DRM is present.

2. Second, activations limit is not an actual limit. Activations will be increased upon request - all you have to do, is to register the game and send the message to support@yuplay.com. The only reason, why they are limited - because otherwise it would be simple way of playing game for thousands of players with one key.

I can't see ANY potential problems with DRM we used.
Thread is closed."

http://forum.yuplay.com/index.php?showtopic=871

I will now forget any ideas on buying this game, and move on to others. I don´t want to support these people.

Double layers of DRM is and will always be the wrong way.


***Second, activations limit is not an actual limit.***

what a CEO minded answer

I almost had a flashback to 3DFX times: our 16bits are more like 24bits. :eek:

Herodotus07
01-09-2010, 05:58 PM
all this talk of DRM is putting this post in front of mine, dealing with more important issues, like missing Swastikas and $#!7. Please cease and desist.
Russian Devs aren't allowed to display the Swastika (look at "IL2). So Cease and Desist.

H8Cr1me
01-09-2010, 06:09 PM
This is the answer from the developer. After this he closed my thread.

"The first answer and I hope, the last.
1. We are using FrontLine ProActive DRM, not StarForce.
It is done by the same guys, but it is completely different - it doesn't install ANY drivers or anyhow else affects Operating System, so can't lead to any hardware problems at all.
Simply, if the game is not running now, no any track in system from DRM is present.

2. Second, activations limit is not an actual limit. Activations will be increased upon request - all you have to do, is to register the game and send the message to support@yuplay.com. The only reason, why they are limited - because otherwise it would be simple way of playing game for thousands of players with one key.

I can't see ANY potential problems with DRM we used.
Thread is closed."

http://forum.yuplay.com/index.php?showtopic=871

I will now forget any ideas on buying this game, and move on to others. I don´t want to support these people.

Double layers of DRM is and will always be the wrong way.

If you don't remember to deactivate using the Activate.exe, you then have this option. They aren't using Starforce and no malicious chit is on your comptuer. Sounds reasonable to me. Steam IS a means of DRM but that is circumvented easily. Look at all the steam rips on torrent sites. I should know, I have pirated some of it (yes, I am a jerkoff). While I am sure this DRM will also be circumvented, you can't blame them for trying. Quit your bellyaching. This game is sick!

Say you are at your activation limit and your computer takes a dump. Taking the little amount of time to authorize additional activations, and not being able to play the game for a few extra minutes, is a minor inconvenience to not being able to play this game at all. Get over it.

This activation thing is getting to be pretty common. I have a list of games that I try to remember to uninstall before I reformat. If I forget, or am unable to, I have no worries that I won't be able to reactivate my game.

H8Cr1me
01-09-2010, 06:14 PM
Russian Devs aren't allowed to display the Swastika (look at "IL2). So Cease and Desist.

They had them on there before, and the hack is working for the YuPlay version, Genius. So YOU Cease and Desist, sir! Quit spewing lies!

JTWibble
01-09-2010, 06:17 PM
If your not going to buy the game because of the DRM then don't. Move on, don't sit around the forum crying about it. This is the protection they have decided to use. The game is awesome, if DRM stands in your way then that's sad for you. This is the best WW2 game since IL2.

fearlessfrog
01-09-2010, 06:20 PM
If your not going to buy the game because of the DRM then don't. Move on

Actually, it's worth complaining as a lot of people will see this on steam front page, then come to this forum - so it's relevant.

If the dev's notice then they might do something different next time (hey, unlikely but you never know by not trying...)

JTWibble
01-09-2010, 06:24 PM
Or you can ignore the rumors about DRM breaking your hardware, and find that the activation limits are not an issue as you won't change hardware often enough to run out before it resets. When I install a game it's on my system for months, activation limits are not a problem. If you install again on the same hardware it does not care.

fearlessfrog
01-09-2010, 06:29 PM
Or you can ignore the rumors about DRM breaking your hardware

Actually I'm more in the camp that the DRM is an unnecessary insult as a consumer and I don't really care how it's implemented. Just because it phones home in a nice way is nothing to do with it - the fact that it has 3 activations as a concept is just not what I want to support with a purchase.

Ranmaru
01-09-2010, 06:34 PM
Or you can ignore the rumors about DRM breaking your hardware

1. Go to starforce site.

2. Read about the features of this fantastic DRM.

3. ????

4. Start rumors about the DRM yourself. (No profit, however).

Murdats
01-09-2010, 06:37 PM
Or you can ignore the rumors about DRM breaking your hardware, and find that the activation limits are not an issue as you won't change hardware often enough to run out before it resets. When I install a game it's on my system for months, activation limits are not a problem. If you install again on the same hardware it does not care.

your right, activation limits aren't so bad, I mean I only own 180 other games then this, so when I want to format in the near future, I should have no problem with needing to deactivate all of these first, then reactivating them on format right, on each machine, thats what you want the future to be right?

I prefer the current system of I format, run steam, it installs its service and then I am done.

the hassle of one game having this sort of DRM is irritating, but by accepting it the future wont be just this one game, it will be most, and then that becomes taking a day of wrestling with deactivation and activation systems just so I can spend 30min formatting, then another half day of reactivating everything again before I even start setting up my computer

H8Cr1me
01-09-2010, 06:39 PM
Actually I'm more in the camp that the DRM is an unnecessary insult as a consumer and I don't really care how it's implemented. Just because it phones home in a nice way is nothing to do with it - the fact that it has 3 activations as a concept is just not what I want to support with a purchase.

You are overly sensitive if you feel insulted.

Just because illegal immigrants circumvent, and take advantage of our welfare system, doesn't mean that there shouldn't be some sort of barrier for either them or citizens to get it.

The whole notion that removing DRM will contribute to less piracy is a load of crap. Look at what happened to Stardock with Demigod. They released it DRM free and the overload of pirates assisted in breaking the multiplayer component upon release.

H8Cr1me
01-09-2010, 06:42 PM
@Ranmaru: I believe he is talking about THIS DRM breaking your hardware. Since this game doesn't use Starforce, there is no chance of that now is there?

JTWibble
01-09-2010, 06:43 PM
your right, activation limits aren't so bad, I mean I only own 180 other games then this, so when I want to format in the near future, I should have no problem with needing to deactivate all of these first, then reactivating them on format right, on each machine, thats what you want the future to be right?

I prefer the current system of I format, run steam, it installs its service and then I am done.

the hassle of one game having this sort of DRM is irritating, but by accepting it the future wont be just this one game, it will be most, and then that becomes taking a day of wrestling with deactivation and activation systems just so I can spend 30min formatting, then another half day of reactivating everything again before I even start setting up my computer

Since your only doing a format and the hardware has not changed it won't matter about deactivating.

Ranmaru
01-09-2010, 06:44 PM
The whole notion that removing DRM will contribute to less piracy is a load of crap. Look at what happened to Stardock with Demigod. They released it DRM free and the overload of pirates assisted in breaking the multiplayer component upon release.

Look at what happened to Stardock with Sins of a Solar Empire.

Ranmaru
01-09-2010, 06:50 PM
@Ranmaru: I believe he is talking about THIS DRM breaking your hardware. Since this game doesn't use Starforce, there is no chance of that now is there?

Read the features please, so you can understad why we don't like it.



http://www.star-force.com/solutions/products/fl_proactive/

Froost
01-09-2010, 06:59 PM
all this talk of DRM is putting this post in front of mine, dealing with more important issues, like missing Swastikas and $#!7. Please cease and desist.

"To enable swastika in game, open 'documents and settings\my games\wings of prey\config.blk' and write on a new line:"

debug { swastika:b=true;}

oto niel
01-09-2010, 07:07 PM
@Ranmaru: I believe he is talking about THIS DRM breaking your hardware. Since this game doesn't use Starforce, there is no chance of that now is there?

ah but the thing is, it is using starforce.

oto niel
01-09-2010, 07:12 PM
ah cool h8cr1me must work for a pretty well known company that likes to posts links to "outlawed" software, read that posting links offering pirated products of companies that refused to included their malware on their products.

so, in case anybody had any doubts, there are starforce agents hanging around here.

skullman86
01-09-2010, 07:13 PM
http://isohunt.com/torrents/?ihq=sins+of+a+solar+empire
easy, peezy, lemon squeezy. There is no way of proving that the removal of DRM for this title contributed to less pirating. Generally people will be less likely to pirate a game if the multiplayer experience will be its main focus. And it is more likely to do well if it is a GOOD game. This is the case with Sins.


Well then gaijin should have nothing to worry about ;)

H8Cr1me
01-09-2010, 07:16 PM
ah cool h8cr1me must work for a pretty well known company that likes to posts links to "outlawed" software, read that posting links offering pirated products of companies that refused to included their malware on their products.

so, in case anybody had any doubts, there are starforce agents hanging around here.

does anybody understand what he is trying to say?

Ranmaru
01-09-2010, 07:19 PM
There is no way of proving that the removal of DRM for this title contributed to less pirating.

Neither is there a way of proving that adding DRM contributes to less piracy, btw, I have a crack here for WoP, want it? I heard it was something you couldn't crack.

Exactly which feature is it that you don't like?

I don't like how they can decide how it should be distributed in the future, forcing me not to use Steam and having to use something I dislike.

Neither do I like how they can region lock the game when they feel like it.

I also don't like how they can limit at will the game's functionality.

I dislike also how they can even specify how many times can I run it.

I DO dislike too how they can decide how much time can I have the game running.

What's not to love? And with no suspicious files at all, this can be done, what a wonderful piece of software it is!

oto niel
01-09-2010, 07:24 PM
does anybody understand what he is trying to say?

what were you trying to prove by posting that link?t

I could as well say that there is no way of proving that including a drm (specially one as draconian as this) will contribute to less piracy, as a matter of fact, if you were not such a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ person you'd realized that right there, in the same site you posted, there are the first cracked version of wings of prey.

so, what is it that you are trying to say?

that starforce latest version contributes to less piracy?

H8Cr1me
01-09-2010, 07:26 PM
@Ranmaru: You have a Crack? Sure, give it here.

Features - You honestly think that Steam will let them force you NOT to use steam. You honestly think they are going to limit functionality, how many times you can run it, or how MUCH time you can run it. These measures are intended for demos and such. Get real dude.

H8Cr1me
01-09-2010, 07:31 PM
what were you trying to prove by posting that link?t

I could as well say that there is no way of proving that including a drm (specially one as draconian as this) will contribute to less piracy, as a matter of fact, if you were not such a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ person you'd realized that right there, in the same site you posted, there are the first cracked version of wings of prey.

so, what is it that you are trying to say?

that starforce latest version contributes to less piracy?

The link post was intended to prove that Sins was pirated even though the Stardock showed "respect" and omitted DRM. As will WoP. My point is that just because it is going to happen, doesn't mean that there shouldn't be at least a reasonable attempt to curb it; even though resistance is futile. In the case of this DRM as the developer describes it, it doesn't sound unreasonable.

skullman86
01-09-2010, 07:34 PM
H8Cr1me, I know how much you LOVE Liberals; would you trust the government with this type of control? Instead of a game -- it's your car.Just because they are the benevolent developer doesn't mean anything.The fact is you are paying them to have these powers that shouldn't be needed in the first place because the only people they would use them on are the people that have totally bypassed the system.

If it's only intended for "demos and such", why is it on a full game? :confused:

Ranmaru
01-09-2010, 07:39 PM
@Ranmaru: You have a Crack? Sure, give it here.

And be banned, google away, it was the third link I think.

Features - You honestly think that Steam will let them force you NOT to use steam. You honestly think they are going to limit functionality, how many times you can run it, or how MUCH time you can run it. These measures are intended for demos and such. Get real dude.

What worries me is not what will allow or disallow Steam, it's that they have the ability to do so in a program that is installed in my machine, to be more precise, in a folder wich requires admin privileges to get access to. That's a lot of stuff they can do in an admin password requiring folder, isn't it?

oto niel
01-09-2010, 07:45 PM
What worries me is not what will allow or disallow Steam, it's that they have the ability to do so in a program that is installed in my machine, to be more precise, in a folder wich requires admin privileges to get access to. That's a lot of stuff they can do in an admin password requiring folder, isn't it?

the fun thing is that they *insist* that the game is yours.

oto niel
01-09-2010, 07:49 PM
The link post was intended to prove that Sins was pirated even though the Stardock showed "respect" and omitted DRM. As will WoP. My point is that just because it is going to happen, doesn't mean that there shouldn't be at least a reasonable attempt to curb it; even though resistance is futile. In the case of this DRM as the developer describes it, it doesn't sound unreasonable.

I will take any company that shows "respect" for the customer over any company that shows "disrespect" for the customer including draconian drms.

H8Cr1me
01-09-2010, 07:57 PM
alright look, I could care less about DRM, what game has it, what game doesn't. I bought the game and I have NO worries about not playing it for the rest of my life, whenever I want. The DRM in question is marketed for more than just games, it is just a capability of it and a service that they can offer a company looking to implement DRM. It doesn't mean that you have some overlord with an oppressive boot on your neck. My ultimate point is that this DRM, as the developers describe it, has not and will not ever impede my ability to play this game whenever I want. They say that there is no malicious stuff on my rig and I am gonna believe them. Therefore, IMO the DRM is a non-issue.

I will say that I wish you ♥♥♥♥ WOULD buy the game so I can gun your sorry asses down

Ranmaru
01-09-2010, 08:17 PM
I have NO worries about not playing it for the rest of my life, whenever I want.

As long as you're online.

They say that there is no malicious stuff on my rig

Wich is true, DRM is serverside, still it does make your admin password protected folder "unsafeish" while you play.

you F4g$

Manners. We wouldn't worry about this if we weren't interested in the game. I wouldn't want to play however with someone that is so quick when it come to swearwords, they're fond on ragequitting I heard.

Sky_Rail
01-09-2010, 10:32 PM
Thanks for the heads up! I downloaded the demo and couldn't find a joystick setup in options so I came here to see if the full game was joystick supported. I saw this thread and now I could care less because I wont buy it!

Maybe I will get it in a month or so when the price drops to $9.99.

stinkfinger
01-09-2010, 10:45 PM
Thanks for the heads up! I downloaded the demo and couldn't find a joystick setup in options so I came here to see if the full game was joystick supported. I saw this thread and now I could care less because I wont buy it!

Maybe I will get it in a month or so when the price drops to $9.99.

The Joystick options are in plain sight under the "keybind" and "device" menu. Its a great game.

Sky_Rail
01-09-2010, 11:07 PM
The Joystick options are in plain sight under the "keybind" and "device" menu. Its a great game.

Problem is Keybind and device menu is under a selection called profile. (Must be a console term) Did ya see where I said I wont support DRM? It doesn't matter if it is a great game I wont support DRM. Besides like I said i will play it in a month when it's 9.99.

todace
01-10-2010, 12:56 AM
So just like every other game forum with third party DRM this is the obligatory "No sale for you" thread, also to warn those who don't realise this game comes with

3 activation limit Starforce

because the store page doesn't mention it.
if steam will refund me this game (because there was no thread or store warning about it) then that is a lost sale from me, otherwise I guess I got suckered into buying a gimped game.


1. DRM is FrontLine, not StarForce. It doesn't install any drivers or anything else to your OS. When game is not running there is no any track of it. It is safe and user-friendly.
2. You have 3 activations and 10 deactivations by default (that means you can install the game 13 times)
3. Just when you'll need more activations - write mail on support@yuplay.com and you'll get it.

So there is no any problems in fact.

Kradath
01-10-2010, 01:29 AM
As a matter of fairness it should be mentioned that your actications reset after a month, so basically you can acticate it 3 times a month and get more if you get in contact with them.

Don't remember when I installed a game 3 times within one month.

Just want to say that I'm not right here. Tages gives you 3 activations per month which is more reasonable than starforce.

Incognito_gbg
01-10-2010, 02:50 AM
this game is too awesome to let petty concerns keep you from playing it, really :cool:


In this day and age, the question about DRM is not petty. Its pretty ignorant to call consumers rights "petty".

milkweg
01-10-2010, 07:11 AM
Wow. I just read the glowing review on IGN, and someone in the comments pointed me here. Companies are still using Starforce? Amazing.

It is far-fetched, but possible, that the Steam people did not realize Starforce was in this game. (After all, have any of them commented on this yet?)

Do you really think Valve cares? All they care about is that you buy games from them and make them richer.

milkweg
01-10-2010, 07:13 AM
this game is too awesome to let petty concerns keep you from playing it, really :cool:

and it definitely won't be $9.99 in a month lol@dumbassery

You just by-passed the swear filter. That's an insta-ban and seeing as you feel so self righteous I am sure you will agree.

milkweg
01-10-2010, 07:17 AM
If your not going to buy the game because of the DRM then don't. Move on, don't sit around the forum crying about it. This is the protection they have decided to use. The game is awesome, if DRM stands in your way then that's sad for you. This is the best WW2 game since IL2.

Really? It's just a bunch of single missions strung together. Don't be wowed by the pretty graphics. Apart from nice graphics this game is as shallow as Britney Spears.

This is the best WWII game since IL-2 was released and in some ways is better than Il-2. Full dynamic campaign that you control like a RT strat game.

http://www.matrixgames.com/products/353/details/Battle.of.Britain.II.-.Wings.of.Victory

Bishop7
01-10-2010, 07:22 AM
There is not 3 limits.
Quit your crying and read the article.
It's not starforce DRM.
Same people who made it, made starforce but it's completely different.
Also you can reactivate the game as much as you want.
You can just only have it on 3 systems at any time.

Frankly your childish biased is costing you a very fun game.
your loss.

Clearly you barely played the game if your calling it just a bunch of strung together missions. Now your just lieing to make people not want it, because your temper tantruming about your DRM.
seriously?
stfu and go troll somewhere else.
Stop spamming this lame ♥♥♥ topic.

The game is totally worth it.
you fail.

VargasCole
01-10-2010, 07:49 AM
means if you have to install it 3 times whatever the reason may be your rental of the game is over..no more installing.plus starforce tends to screw alot of peoples computers up.any company who resorts to using them can eat ♥♥♥♥ if you ask me.

Yeah it starforce is a little extream for steam. I got dirt and i did not have any problem from starforce plus you can always remove starforce afther to uninstall it, but still it is pretty lame that you have to do that

simonjames1975
01-10-2010, 07:53 AM
Don't let the DRM put you off guys, this ain't a bad game imo. I had a little trouble with my firewall and activation but apart from that the DRM was not a big deal for me.

Incognito_gbg
01-10-2010, 08:01 AM
Don't let the DRM put you off guys, this ain't a bad game imo. I had a little trouble with my firewall and activation but apart from that the DRM was not a big deal for me.

Please read up on the discussion instead of suggesting such things.

Rocketfu3l
01-10-2010, 08:01 AM
The gamers that give their views on DRM here do it for the gaming community and not only the developers or distributors. After all, the more gamers that agree and do not buy these 'grey area of rental rather than license purchase games' the more in future it will affect sales figures of those companies that choose to put their customers through this DRM ♥♥♥♥ for the sake of a handful of pirates!

Not to mention that Steam is an effective type of DRM without the hassle. Those companies really should do a Steam version and remove the additional DRMs.

oto niel
01-10-2010, 08:02 AM
There is not 3 limits.
Quit your crying and read the article.
It's not starforce DRM.
Same people who made it, made starforce but it's completely different.
Also you can reactivate the game as much as you want.
You can just only have it on 3 systems at any time.

Frankly your childish biased is costing you a very fun game.
your loss.

Clearly you barely played the game if your calling it just a bunch of strung together missions. Now your just lieing to make people not want it, because your temper tantruming about your DRM.
seriously?
stfu and go troll somewhere else.
Stop spamming this lame ♥♥♥ topic.

The game is totally worth it.
you fail.

hey you might be right, maybe it's not starforce, let me check:

http://www.star-force.com/solutions/products/fl_proactive/

nope, no such luck, looks starforce alright:

Starforce Frontline ProActive


@todace

1. DRM is FrontLine, not StarForce. It doesn't install any drivers or anything else to your OS. When game is not running there is no any track of it. It is safe and user-friendly.


A. It is Starforce Frontline, learn to read, and learn to speak consumerish, not publisherish.

2. You have 3 activations and 10 deactivations by default (that means you can install the game 13 times)

A. Yah, but their argument is that you bought the game, you really must work for starforce or gaijin or something, because no matter how you can arrange it, it stays the same, I am being limited in what use I can do with as A LEGIT USER


3. Just when you'll need more activations - write mail on support@yuplay.com and you'll get it.

A. Riiiiittteeeeeeeee!!!!

simonjames1975
01-10-2010, 08:25 AM
Please read up on the discussion instead of suggesting such things.

I've followed the discussion closely, you and many others are talking about DRMs. It is of my opinion that the DRM used by Yuplay is far from being the big bad entity you all make it out to be.

DRMs in the past have been intrusive, damaging and illegal in some cases. This DRM is not of any those in my opinion.

Incognito_gbg
01-10-2010, 08:34 AM
I've followed the discussion closely, you and many others are talking about DRMs. It is of my opinion that the DRM used by Yuplay is far from being the big bad entity you all make it out to be.

DRMs in the past have been intrusive, damaging and illegal in some cases. This DRM is not of any those in my opinion.

1. The DRM is unneccessary for the Steam version. The reason that its there, is that they do not want to make the effort to remove it.
2. The use of extra DRM invalidates many of the reasons to buy the game on Steam.

Suds13
01-10-2010, 08:38 AM
I've followed the discussion closely, you and many others are talking about DRMs. It is of my opinion that the DRM used by Yuplay is far from being the big bad entity you all make it out to be.

DRMs in the past have been intrusive, damaging and illegal in some cases. This DRM is not of any those in my opinion.

I agree. And if it's needed to keep the yuPlay and Steam MP community together, and keep all the pirate hackers out, then so be it.

Ranmaru
01-10-2010, 08:41 AM
There is not 3 limits.

You have 3 activations and 10 deactivations.

It's not starforce DRM.

It's starforce made DRM, wich is a big drawback for lots of people.

it's completely different.

It's completely different, true, DRM is serverside, not on your machine, HOWEVER, it does come from the STARFORCE team, wich in the past compromised several machines, and it just happens that this serverside DRM could leave your admin password protected program files folder vulnerable while you play.

Frankly your childish biased is costing you a very fun game.

There are more games out there.

The game is totally worth it.

I don't doubt it, but I've decided not to buy it because I don't like the company behind it's DRM.

mundox86
01-10-2010, 08:42 AM
Starforce?! A you effin kidding me? I though devs had learn their lesson about that POS computer damaging DRM.

solvalou
01-10-2010, 08:52 AM
Cry me a river...

Who cares it has Starforce? If the game works it's fine with me.

Sorry, but lately those DRM crybabies are getting on my nerves...

Incognito_gbg
01-10-2010, 08:53 AM
Cry me a river...

Who cares it has Starforce? If the game works it's fine with me.

Sorry, but lately those DRM crybabies are getting on my nerves...

If you want anyone to care about your opinions, then read up about the discussion.

Its kinda lame to talk about crying when people discuss consumers right and are actually interested in this game.

Bishop7
01-10-2010, 08:54 AM
Starforce?! A you effin kidding me? I though devs had learn their lesson about that POS computer damaging DRM.

Read.. then talk..
ug..
We have already pointed out the TRUE facts of this matter.

The DRM is completely different.
It is in no way shape or form similar to the DRM your all complaining about.
The only thing keeping you guys from buying it, is that starforce DRM hurt your feelings.

IE: Your all butt hurt..lol..

So please move on and stop giving bad reviews to a very fun game. Simply because some old ♥♥♥, non-related DRM hurt your feelings.
WOP does not have that DRM.

Ranmaru
01-10-2010, 08:59 AM
Cry me a river...

Sure, if it helps you drowning.

Who cares it has Starforce?

99% of the playerbase?

If the game works it's fine with me.

Good. If it seems like a risk to my machine, it's not fine with me.

Sorry, but lately those DRM crybabies are getting on my nerves...

Give it some thinking. Most of us own games with DRM, and we don't complain. Heck, I have GTA IV wich includes R Social Club, SecuROM AND GFWL. And I didn't complain. Yet I complain about this one DRM company. Mmmmmight be something wrong with them, dontcha think?

Incognito_gbg
01-10-2010, 09:02 AM
Well I for one don´t accept SecuRom on Steam games either. I decided against buying the Crysis pack during the holiday sale because of that. I accept Steam as DRM, thats it.

JunkanooPunch
01-10-2010, 09:03 AM
lost sale.

O well, get rid of DRM then ill consider it.

Bishop7
01-10-2010, 09:06 AM
Sure, if it helps you drowning.



99% of the playerbase?



Good. If it seems like a risk to my machine, it's not fine with me.



Give it some thinking. Most of us own games with DRM, and we don't complain. Heck, I have GTA IV wich includes R Social Club, SecuROM AND GFWL. And I didn't complain. Yet I complain about this one DRM company. Mmmmmight be something wrong with them, dontcha think?

Give it up already..

where is this 99%?
The only place it exists is in your mind.
95% of the people responding to these topics agree your over reacting.
therefore you mean 5% of the public?
Out of that 5%, I'd say 1% will end up not buying it in the end.

My total counter argument to your statement is this.
It's not the same DRM.. fact.
I work with facts, your working with hurt feelings.
Hurt feelings don't keep games in my games list, or I wouldn't have every fear expansion. lol
Or L4d1 and L4D2.

Get over it and go have some fun.

Ranmaru
01-10-2010, 09:13 AM
where is this 99%?
The only place it exists is in your mind.

The internet is linked to my mind? Awesome.

It's not the same DRM.. fact.

It's from the same makers and allows remote acces to an admin password protected folder in your machine... fact.

I work with facts

So do I.

Get over it and go have some fun.

Will do, with some other game.

todace
01-10-2010, 09:21 AM
Wow. I just read the glowing review on IGN, and someone in the comments pointed me here. Companies are still using Starforce? Amazing.

It is far-fetched, but possible, that the Steam people did not realize Starforce was in this game. (After all, have any of them commented on this yet?)

Just one more time.
This DRM is not StarForce.
It's made by the same guys, but it is harmless, and have no any drivers or anything else installing to OS.
Also you have not 3 activations by default, but also 10 deactivations (that means that you can re-install game 13 times and you can install it on your 3 computers in the same time).
And moreover. We use this key as way to detect our customers for multiplayer servers and whatever more.
That means that you can get as much activations as you need buy writing email to our support. Also you are able to download distributive from not only Steam but from our site.
If (or when) we'll make sequel (and we are working on it) you'll get discount - for all that we use this key.

In fact it's hard to understand what is the problem.
This DRM is much more forgiven then even steam's, it works on different computers at the same time, both offline and online, it is safe, it is unnoticeable after activation, it is harmless.
And in any case - we have to use some keys to provide all the services.

Ardbug
01-10-2010, 09:23 AM
3 activation limit Starforce

Oh man thanks for the heads up, I was very close to making the same mistake as you, here is a rep cookie for your loss Sir ....

oto niel
01-10-2010, 09:36 AM
Just one more time.
This DRM is not StarForce.
It's made by the same guys, but it is harmless, and have no any drivers or anything else installing to OS.
Also you have not 3 activations by default, but also 10 deactivations (that means that you can re-install game 13 times and you can install it on your 3 computers in the same time).
And moreover. We use this key as way to detect our customers for multiplayer servers and whatever more.
That means that you can get as much activations as you need buy writing email to our support. Also you are able to download distributive from not only Steam but from our site.
If (or when) we'll make sequel (and we are working on it) you'll get discount - for all that we use this key.

In fact it's hard to understand what is the problem.
This DRM is much more forgiven then even steam's, it works on different computers at the same time, both offline and online, it is safe, it is unnoticeable after activation, it is harmless.
And in any case - we have to use some keys to provide all the services.

It's become clear that you do work for gaijin, so let me tell you this:

One last time, it is starforce, they just replaced the disc based check for a web based one, why are you trying to convince with your lies?

The people that already bought the game? The people that don't care of about consumers rights and freedom as long as they get their gaming fix?

You should be concerned about how many people are turning their backs to your product, was it really worth it?

Your argument of check the key for multiplayer servers thus the need to include starforce products in your program is moot, many other companies have done the same without wanting to ♥♥♥♥ the customers rights to privacy and fair treatment.

I can download a cracked version of the l4d games, I can play it locally without problems, can I go online?

no

does valve states that it needs to include draconian drm?

no

I can download sins of a solar empire (as a matter of fact one of your drones had the nerve to post a direct link here for it to download) it's a great game to play single player but can I go online?

no

does stardocks states that it needs to include a draconian drm?

no

I could go long with example but the point here is, who are you trying to convince that you made the right decision? you said that you are "an small indie company", really? why all the EA like talk and behavior? should we make a list of how many small time indie companies include any sort of drm here on steam? (or any other worthwhile digital download service for that matter)

BigEV
01-10-2010, 09:38 AM
Regardless of its potential damage to your computer, ANY kind of extra DRM (with activation limits or not) IS SUPPOSED to be mentioned on the Steam store page.

This needs to be addressed.

piman
01-10-2010, 10:37 AM
There is also an "activate.exe" program in the main folder.. if for some reason you change hardware etc.. just use it to deactivate the program and then reactivate it when done or moved to new hardware..no count against your 3 installs.

This game is to good to let any of this bother your purchase.. it really rocks and rolls.. dedicated server software is comming also.along with a mission editor..

I can't tell you how many times I've changed my OS or reconfigured my Machine (yes I like to monkey around with it) and forgot to deactivate the games I have with the same type of protection. While it sounds easy most will not remember to deactivate before doing something that may cause you to have to reinstall the game. If you can get as many activations as you need why have it at all?

with that said the games I have with this same type protection are not Steam games So I live with it and have had no problem getting extra activations (almost instantly) from the developers . But why they have to do this with Steam versions is beyond? If you buy it retail it doesn't have 2 layers of DRM. I guess they do it to bug thier honest customers more or their just lazy?

piman
01-10-2010, 10:41 AM
Really? It's just a bunch of single missions strung together. Don't be wowed by the pretty graphics. Apart from nice graphics this game is as shallow as Britney Spears.

[/url]

that may be but I sure as heck won't mind taking Britney for a spin or two. I wonder how many activations she comes with :-)

Incognito_gbg
01-10-2010, 10:42 AM
I guess they do it to bug thier honest customers more or their just lazy?

I don´t want to call them lazy. I´m sure they are very hard working people who has put a lot of effort in to this game. But they have said that they don´t want to make the effort to pull the Starforce DRM from the Steam version.

oto niel
01-10-2010, 11:36 AM
I don´t want to call them lazy. I´m sure they are very hard working people who has put a lot of effort in to this game. But they have said that they don´t want to make the effort to pull the Starforce DRM from the Steam version.

I have been left under the impression that they don't want to make any kind of effort with anything related to the steam version.

which makes me wonder, if yuplay was going to be the main focus of their efforts, why put it here on the first place?

Sky_Rail
01-10-2010, 12:58 PM
this game is too awesome to let petty concerns keep you from playing it, really :cool:

and it definitely won't be $9.99 in a month lol@dumbassery

Enjoy your ban skippy! We will see. I bought Section 8 for 12.00 it was hyped out the kazoo. That's right in a month or so I will grab a game from the bargin bin for a fraction of what you paid for it! LOLZ! burns you up don't it?

blazemonkey
01-10-2010, 04:52 PM
phew, thanks for the heads up, just about bought this one.

Wolfseven
01-10-2010, 04:56 PM
"you will go to your grave with out even giving it a chance and to never have know what it was like.."

Shaz
01-11-2010, 12:45 AM
Was interested in this game, as a fan of WWII planes, until I noticed the game isn't fully implemented with steam, and includes 3rd party DRM.

The thing that itches me is that if every game I buy contains random 3rd party software, it'll get on my nerves. I want to buy the game, not miscellaneous software that comes with it. I think this is the feeling that many people have. Best to draw the line in the sand early.

P.S. I hate punkbuster

Ardbug
01-11-2010, 01:26 AM
The thing that itches me is that if every game I buy contains random 3rd party software, it'll get on my nerves. I want to buy the game, not miscellaneous software that comes with it. I think this is the feeling that many people have. Best to draw the line in the sand early.

If half my games had this activation scheme, and I did get into a situation where I had to reactivate them all, then I would have to do it for more than 100 games, just imagine the headache and annoyance of having to talk to 100 support desk popes ....

If the multiplayer is still active when this game gets rid of starforce, then I might considder getting it.

rejer133
01-11-2010, 05:03 AM
I have bought 1 game whit a DRM and damn so many problems. Icant even install it now. But anyway DRM = stasi stuff. Steam should be the protection just like MW2.

stinkfinger
01-11-2010, 07:06 AM
why bother with activations then?

Ummm.. so you don't buy the game and lend it out you all your friends so they install it and play multi-player with out paying for the game?

Maybe that for starters...:eek:

oto niel
01-11-2010, 07:13 AM
Ummm.. so you don't buy the game and lend it out you all your friends so they install it and play multi-player with out paying for the game?

Maybe that for starters...:eek:

ah, excellent, this display of distrust to the legal user is yours? or is it the official position of the company towards the people that supported them with their money?

stinkfinger
01-11-2010, 07:19 AM
ah, excellent, this display of distrust to the legal user is yours? or is it the official position of the company towards the people that supported them with their money?

Um, no its like having actual living experience and understanding basic human nature.

freibooter
01-11-2010, 09:07 AM
This game looked so awesome... graphics.. achievements.. controller support.. but then I went to forums to read that it have Starforce with 3 install limits -.-' no sale for me :(

Wow ... that's pretty much the same for me:

Small, upcoming development studio that I usually gladly support: Wooohh!
Very fair Euro-pricing: Wooohooooh!
Steamworks integration and achievements: Wooohh!
Impressive graphics: Wooohh!
Small-release-celebration-discount: Woo ...
Controller support: Wooohh!
Interesting gameplay: Wooohh!

Additional, pointless Starforce (!) DRM with rigid activation limit on Steam: absolutely no ♥♥♥♥ing way!

This is one of the most idiotic ways to lose sales I have ever seen ...

Frankly, this game could be offered with a 90% discount and come with free ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥s and I still wouldn't buy it. I didn't even know that Starforce was still around, I haven't seen it used in years ...

oto niel
01-11-2010, 09:10 AM
Um, no its like having actual living experience and understanding basic human nature.

your speech sound awfully like the other people that work for gaijin that have attempted to come here to do damage control.

you sure you don't work for them and or yuplay?

PS
your sense of reality definitely is borderline with psychosis.

Murdats
01-11-2010, 09:21 AM
Um, no its like having actual living experience and understanding basic human nature.

obviously you haven't read the chapter that explains insulting your customers does not increase sales

or the part that explains how restricting those who are honest and not those who aren't doesn't encourage honesty or sales

freakshowfreak
01-11-2010, 09:31 AM
Ummm.. so you don't buy the game and lend it out you all your friends so they install it and play multi-player with out paying for the game?

Maybe that for starters...:eek:
with steam you can't you can't login with more people on 1 account.
thus no need for this drm crap on steam

imagine yourself buying a book

you open the book

you read the book

you close the book

you place the book on the bookself

a year later you want to read the book but it won't open

OMG you closed it you upgreded to a bigger bookself and now

you need to run back to the bookstore and ask pretty pretty please of the shopkeeper want's to reset your book usage so you can reuse and reread the book you bought and owned.
now if you made illigal copies of the book you wouldn't have this problem.........


so what is wrong with this story

the only people you bug with this drm are buying customers the pirates will hack it annyway and have less hastle then us.



p.s. for evryone who agrees with mee please sign my petition on the forum http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1106419

stinkfinger
01-11-2010, 09:44 AM
with steam you can't you can't login with more people on 1 account.
thus no need for this drm crap on steam


Yes I understand that, the yuplay DRM was already implemented in the product "prior" to the availability on the Steam store.

The Steam availability was obviously not on the to-do list for the makers, and an unfortunately double DRM was implemented because Steam is DRM in its self. Remove "steam" and own the game without the original DRM, there goes the piracy. Just like Steam, YuPlay will only let one user log on per sale of title. How is that inherently different from what Valve already does?

The point of view from the game makers is the "first" DRM was to protect their assets. Steam was an afterthought.

I personally have yet to experience any trouble reinstalling DRM titles on multiple machines ever. (Knock on wood)

stinkfinger
01-11-2010, 09:51 AM
you need to run back to the bookstore and ask pretty pretty please of the shopkeeper want's to reset your book usage so you can reuse and reread the book you bought and owned.



No no its very simple and easy...no need to run anywhere. No need to be subservient and ask pretty please, its your game, you can just say ...do it. Please "is" always nice.

You send an Email if you need more, I guarantee you won't spend any gas or break a sweat in the process.

You tell me you have plans to change your Computer more than three times anytime soon? Well that in its own right is a "process" that takes more time and effort than writing a simple email. If you have the time and desire to change all that, one more simple step wont kill you.

Murdats
01-11-2010, 09:55 AM
Yes I understand that, the yuplay DRM was already implemented in the product "prior" to the availability on the Steam store.

The Steam availability was obviously not on the to-do list for the makers, and an unfortunately double DRM was implemented because Steam is DRM in its self. Remove "steam" and own the game without the original DRM, there goes the piracy. Just like Steam, YuPlay will only let one user log on per sale of title. How is that inherently different from what Valve already does?

The point of view from the game makers is the "first" DRM was to protect their assets. Steam was an afterthought.

I personally have yet to experience any trouble reinstalling DRM titles on multiple machines ever. (Knock on wood)

so you are saying they implemented yuplay as DRM, then added starforce v2 then left it for steam, so there is 3 versions of DRM in total?

I don't really know much about yuplay because as soon as I discovered the DRM I started the threads to warn people, put in a steam support ticket and refuse to play it as that would counter my refund request and start running all the garbage again

freakshowfreak
01-11-2010, 09:56 AM
Yes I understand that, the yuplay DRM was already implemented in the product "prior" to the availability on the Steam store.

The Steam availability was obviously not on the to-do list for the makers, and an unfortunately double DRM was implemented because Steam is DRM in its self. Remove "steam" and own the game without the original DRM, there goes the piracy. Just like Steam, YuPlay will only let one user log on per sale of title. How is that inherently different from what Valve already does?

The point of view from the game makers is the "first" DRM was to protect their assets. Steam was an afterthought.

I personally have yet to experience any trouble reinstalling DRM titles on multiple machines ever. (Knock on wood)

the key witch you suply would have been aducuate enough as you don't have tcp/ip play and you need to use the yuplay server so yuplay users and steam users would have been protected enough.

and nothing is 100% foul proof.

stinkfinger
01-11-2010, 09:58 AM
your speech sound awfully like the other people that work for gaijin that have attempted to come here to do damage control.

you sure you don't work for them and or yuplay?

PS
your sense of reality definitely is borderline with psychosis.

Sorry, pretty sure a licensed Psychologist is not posting here today. You have no idea what Psychosis is obviously. The reality of the situation speaks for itself.

Here is some unsolicited advice for you sir.

Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

stinkfinger
01-11-2010, 10:05 AM
but since you are a dev I want to ask you a few questions.

why remove the swastika of steam ?? yuplay users seem to be able to activate it.....



Never claimed to be a Developer... how could I say anything about the censorship? In fact bringing that up is whats referred to as "straw man tactics" The debate was DRM implications not censorship.

All I can say about that is in my recollection IL-2 retail shipped with the same censored swastikas, at least in my version.

You can't blame anyone for trying to take advantage of DLC anyways, the market "has" supported it and made it a viable option. You should of been more concerned about the DLC period years ago when company's everywhere first testing it out on a massive scale. But no we gobbled it up and the trend is here to stay.

Murdats
01-11-2010, 10:05 AM
Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

if we are resorting to ad hominems here, I could suggest you take your own advice

stinkfinger
01-11-2010, 10:12 AM
if we are resorting to ad hominems here, I could suggest you take your own advice

Figures that you would be the first to take that "obvious" retort.

Should I ring a bell next? Get your drool cloth!

Remind me Murdats of all the factual, non biased information you've bestowed upon us. All Ive seen is accusations, assumptions and what ifs.

Mavi222
01-11-2010, 10:18 AM
Wow ... that's pretty much the same for me:

Small, upcoming development studio that I usually gladly support: Wooohh!
Very fair Euro-pricing: Wooohooooh!
Steamworks integration and achievements: Wooohh!
Impressive graphics: Wooohh!
Small-release-celebration-discount: Woo ...
Controller support: Wooohh!
Interesting gameplay: Wooohh!

Additional, pointless Starforce (!) DRM with rigid activation limit on Steam: absolutely no ♥♥♥♥ing way!

This is one of the most idiotic ways to lose sales I have ever seen ...

Frankly, this game could be offered with a 90% discount and come with free ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥s and I still wouldn't buy it. I didn't even know that Starforce was still around, I haven't seen it used in years ...

yeah, all the points are my thoughts ... well instead of this I supported other indie developers (Wolfire with their Overgrowth have some awesome deal right now :p )

Murdats
01-11-2010, 10:20 AM
Figures that you would be the first to take that "obvious" retort.

Should I ring a bell next? Get your drool cloth!

Remind me Murdats of all the factual, non biased information you've bestowed upon us. All Ive seen is accusations, assumptions and what ifs.

your right, I am biased in my accusations that this game has DRM developed by starforce.

I am making the assumption that this game will not magically revoke my activation count on format unless I specifically uninstall just this game

I am also assuming that this DRM will limit the number of computers I can have this game on simultaneously.

and how dare I be biased by reading their own forums, before the inclusion of DRM was revealed to steam customers and reading the devs own post that steam customers are being treated at a lower priority

how dare I accuse this game of having multiple layers of DRM

and you are right, the retort is obvious, for a good reason. if you walk up to someone, and you have a massive pimple on the end of your nose and you tell them they should treat their blemish because it makes them ugly, how would you expect them to respond?

oto niel
01-11-2010, 10:26 AM
Sorry, pretty sure a licensed Psychologist is not posting here today. You have no idea what Psychosis is obviously. The reality of the situation speaks for itself.

Here is some unsolicited advice for you sir.

Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

oh let me guess, you were born in '76 and have a master on history and psychiatry?

**Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt**

you dish advise you don't follow yourself?

quickly dude shut up, everybody is going to notice!! :eek:

stinkfinger
01-11-2010, 10:32 AM
oh let me guess, you were born in '76 and have a master on history and psychiatry?

Not fair ^^ "THAT'S" what I am saying to you! You cant just be a parrot and have an argument.

I know enough to say for fact that many companies have made faulty or bad products to later on redesign themselves and continue on to be successful. Most companies that do that actually dissolve the named company and restart as a different entity.

Through out History this is a constant, no Degree needed to understand that.

All you provide is snarky remarks with no base, you Sir are the one calling diagnosis in your oh so funny "internetz" humor.

I'm definitely amused on this side of the screen.

I'm not the one that desires to "be noticed".

(Let me give you some "internetz rep" +1) Just so you know!

Murdats
01-11-2010, 10:33 AM
I know enough to say for fact that many companies have made faulty or bad products to later on redesign themselves and continue on to be successful. Most companies that do that actually dissolve the named company and restart as a different entity.

Through out History this is a constant, no Degree needed to understand that.

and many conman also start a new con under a different name too

a new name also doesn't change the fact that the people running the company are arrogant, insulting bastards, even if they throw a new name on their product

stinkfinger
01-11-2010, 10:47 AM
and many conman also start a new con under a different name too

a new name also doesn't change the fact that the people running the company are arrogant, insulting bastards, even if they throw a new name on their product

I agree, what morons for at least not doing everything they could manage to change that tainted name. Fools!

That's the Corporate world, not much we can do.

It sucks, remember the "prove it" campaign? That was the definition of arrogance. http://www.star-force.com/press_room/promotion/index.php?promotion=1911 /facepalm

Snus
01-11-2010, 10:58 AM
In 1, 2 .. or however many years later, after I've exhausted my activations and YuPlay has been bought out or gone bellyup. How am I supposed to install and play this game .. legally?

Why should I purchase this game if I can't be guaranteed that I will be able to play it at any time in the foreseeable future, provided I have a system that meets the system requirements.

I'm not saying the game shouldn't use DRM. But at the least, the DRM model should be simliar to Tages, where activations are renewed monthly. Using only Steam DRM would be even better but I understand that the game is not Steam exclusive.

The current DRM puts a fixed lifetime on the game, nullifying the concept of 'owning' the game.

stinkfinger
01-11-2010, 11:10 AM
Ok that's an assumption that can happen obviously. I personally can not name any games that have suffered that disability on that scale. I have always read more of Companies selling the rights or the game, if I was going belly up, that's the best thing to do.

In fact Cryptic sold City of Heroes and now has a new game just like it Champions online.

If we are playing devils advocate and Gaijin Entertainment is Bankrupt why would they not sell the game to another house? It happens all the time.

Like I said I have never read of a DRM games company going kaput, and making the game a brick.

Please point me in the right direction, I'll google the story and change my tune.

The only thing you do by causing all the fuss is help insure the indie company may have financial trouble.

Sgt Jigglebelly
01-11-2010, 11:26 AM
It sucks, remember the "prove it" campaign? That was the definition of arrogance. http://www.star-force.com/press_room/promotion/index.php?promotion=1911 /facepalm

http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_9.html

or not...

stinkfinger
01-11-2010, 11:28 AM
http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_9.html

or not...

Nice find thank you!:cool:

Sgt Jigglebelly
01-11-2010, 11:36 AM
Nice find thank you!:cool:

so can anyone actually provide a confirmed case of the old starforce drm, which is NOT what is used in WoP, actually damaging someone's comp in any way? :confused:

out of all this arguing, that's the one thing i've yet to see provided by either camp...

stinkfinger
01-11-2010, 11:42 AM
so can anyone actually provide a confirmed case of the old starforce drm, which is NOT what is used in WoP, actually damaging someone's comp in any way? :confused:

out of all this arguing, that's the one thing i've yet to see provided by either camp...

Two things actually..

a. "a confirmed case of the old starforce drm, which is NOT what is used in WoP, actually damaging someone's comp in any way?"

b. A confirmed case of a company that had implemented DRM and then gone belly up rendering purchased software obsolete.

Otherwise it just sounds like a case for either laziness and/or piracy.

Snus
01-11-2010, 11:53 AM
In fact Cryptic sold City of Heroes and now has a new game just like it Champions online.
Wings of Prey is not a subscription based game, unlike City of Heroes, there would be no incentive for another company to provide customer support and maintain the DRM activations.

Even without the DRM server being shut down, there are already complaints from various games on the Steam forums about people getting ping-ponged by the publishers, developers, and DRM providers when trying to request additional activations. Typically induced by games with non-renewing DRM schemes.

While you have provided an example of how one company has migrated its DRM over to another company, we still have no guarantees as to how other companies will handle their DRM. Which is why I posed the question in the first place, in the case that YuPlay falls off the map, what then, what guarantees do I have that I will be able to play the game I payed for?
Why should I spend money on a product, knowing that my ownership can be revoked through no fault of my own at a future date.

b. A confirmed case of a company that had implemented DRM and then gone belly up rendering purchased software obsolete.

There's no need to provide a confirmed case when the is concept is entirely plausible. With DRM becoming more and more prevalent, such situation will inevitably occur. As mentioned before, you'd only need to search the Steam forums themselves to come up with posts from frustrated customers trying to get customer support for activations on games that are currently supported.

stinkfinger
01-11-2010, 12:08 PM
Wings of Prey is not a subscription based game, unlike City of Heroes, there would be no incentive for another company to provide customer support and maintain the DRM activations.

Even without the DRM server being shut down, there are already complaints from various games on the Steam forums about people getting ping-ponged by the publishers, developers, and DRM providers when trying to request additional activations. Typically induced by games with non-renewing DRM schemes.

While you have provided an example of how one company has migrated its DRM over to another company, we still have no guarantees as to how other companies will handle their DRM. Which is why I posed the question in the first place, in the case that YuPlay falls off the map, what then, what guarantees do I have that I will be able to play the game I payed for?
Why should I spend money on a product, knowing that my ownership can be revoked through no fault of my own at a future date.




There's no need to provide a confirmed case when the is concept is entirely plausible. With DRM becoming more and more prevalent, such situation will inevitably occur. As mentioned before, you'd only need to search the Steam forums themselves to come up with posts from frustrated Pirates trying to get customer support for activations.

All you say is WHAT IF?
Well the thing to do when going bankrupt is to recover any revenue so a "sale" would be on the table you would think at the least. Wouldn't you want to try to get some money? Maybe try again with the money...like cryptic. And yet not subscription based but DLC minded. Micro transactions none the less.

Yeah bud lots of things in life are plausible, that's a grand blanket statement. Proof is needed?

I proved a game company DID do it.

There are no guarantees, that's life.

Oh wait! What will you do when Steam goes belly up? Ha I just imagined myself at 92 years old trying to get a frag in on Counterstrike.

WHAT IF?

Sgt Jigglebelly
01-11-2010, 12:14 PM
There's no need to provide a confirmed case when the is concept is entirely plausible.

i'm really not trying to insult you sir, but do you realize i really can't take a statement like that seriously? i mean, just say it to yourself and think about it. no offense, really, but... do you not see how that fails on a logical level?

Snus
01-11-2010, 12:54 PM
Oh wait! What will you do when Steam goes belly up?

Steam has a large customer base, and a profitable business model, therefore it would be picked up and supported by another distributor. Can't say the same for Wings of Prey publishers and developers. Which is a problem since the lifetime of their game is dependent on how long they choose to support it.

Yeah bud lots of things in life are plausible, that's a grand blanket statement. Proof is needed?

You're essentially asking me to prove thats its plausible for a company to fail to provide support for a product/service due to financial issues, corporate takeover, or negligence. Easy enough:

http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/30/news/economy/auto_warrantees/index.htm

Surely another company could have stepped in and provided support as you suggested earlier in your example? Well no one did, leading to government intervention. Somehow I don't think the government will come to save the day when my activations run out.

Well the thing to do when going bankrupt is to recover any revenue so a "sale" would be on the table you would think at the least. Wouldn't you want to try to get some money? Maybe try again with the money...like cryptic. And yet not subscription based but DLC minded. Micro transactions none the less.

The buyer will pick and choose what terms they will agree to, and somehow I think they wouldn't consider continuation of customer support for a 1-5 year old game as profitable. Chances are, by the time YuPlay falls off the map, trying to offer DLC would be laughable. At best, they might buy the license to the game so that they can make a sequel. But in no form or fashion would they be obligated to make sure you can still activate your old game.

I really don't understand how you could think someone is always going to be there to answer our email requests for activations for this game 1-5 years down the road.

WHAT IF?

Yep, thats the question, there will eventually be a time where I have to email someone to allow me to install my game, what if no one answers that email? And this isnt the only game with this issue.

Snus
01-11-2010, 01:13 PM
i'm really not trying to insult you sir, but do you realize i really can't take a statement like that seriously? i mean, just say it to yourself and think about it. no offense, really, but... do you not see how that fails on a logical level?

"If I drop a ball, there's a chance that it will fall to the ground."

This is a plausible statement. By declaring it plausible, I am saying it occurs with enough frequency that there is no need for me to prove it.

I cannot guarantee that it will happen, but years of living under the effect of gravity, highschool physics, first hand experience demonstrate that it is indeed plausible.

Are you still doubtful? Do you require that I provide a video showing proof that a ball falling from my hand hits the ground? Perhaps some links to articles proving that its possible for balls to fall to the ground? Do you not trust your own rational judgement and base your decision solely on me providing you with some kind of online justification right this instant, else my words must be meaningless?

It is possible that a company will fail to support a service or product for a given duration. (for example: DRM support for the next 1-5 years)

This is also plausible statement, in fact its common sense that it can happen. Companies fail, we see it happening every day, and there's never been any guarantee that another company will jump in to pick up the pieces. And I am surprised that people need me to prove that such a basic "what if" scenario is possible.

saf
01-11-2010, 01:28 PM
"If I drop a ball, there's a chance that it will fall to the ground."

This is a plausible statement. There's no need to provide a confirmed case when the is concept is entirely plausible.

I cannot guarantee that it will happen, but years of living under the effect of gravity, highschool physics, first hand experience demonstrate that it is indeed plausible.

Are you still doubtful? Do you require that I provide a video showing proof that a ball falling from my hand hits the ground? Perhaps some links to articles proving that its possible for balls to fall to the ground? Do you not trust your own rational judgement and base your decision solely on me providing you with some kind of online justification right this instant, else my words must be meaningless?

The concept of a company failing to support a service or product for the duration of your lifetime is plausible, in fact its common sense that it can happen. Companies fail, we see it happening every day, and there's never been any guarantee that another company will jump in to pick up the pieces. And I am surprised that people need me to prove that such a basic "what if" scenario is possible.

It`s company procedure for some to make a patch that will remove all protection if that should happen.

What the devs of WOP have arranged "if" it should happen it`s just to head over to the forum and ask.

Snus
01-11-2010, 01:38 PM
It`s company procedure for some to make a patch that will remove all protection if that should happen.

What the devs of WOP have arranged "if" it should happen it`s just to head over to the forum and ask.

That would be the ideal solution, though the final decision will be up to the publisher. All publishers using DRM should have this particular "what if" in writing. I'd certainly like to see the Wings of Prey publisher/developer provide a comment.

stinkfinger
01-11-2010, 01:59 PM
"If I drop a ball, there's a chance that it will fall to the ground."

This is a plausible statement.

Really I always was taught and experienced gravity as a Physical Law.

A hard fact.

Plausible –adjective

1. having an appearance of truth or reason; seemingly worthy of approval or acceptance; credible; believable: a plausible excuse; a plausible plot.

Gravity is a hard fact no gray area. No appearance of truth.

saf
01-11-2010, 02:01 PM
That would be the ideal solution, though the final decision will be up to the publisher. All publishers using DRM should have this particular "what if" in writing. I'd certainly like to see the Wings of Prey publisher/developer provide a comment.


Mmm agree, but go and ask and ease your mind :)

Snus
01-11-2010, 02:07 PM
Really I always was taught and experienced gravity as a Physical Law.

A hard fact.

Plausible –adjective

1. having an appearance of truth or reason; seemingly worthy of approval or acceptance; credible; believable: a plausible excuse; a plausible plot.

Gravity is a hard fact no gray area. No appearance of truth.

I stated that the ball hitting the ground was plausible.

I did not debate the credibility of gravity.

Sgt Jigglebelly
01-11-2010, 02:38 PM
Are you still doubtful? Do you require that I provide a video showing proof that a ball falling from my hand hits the ground? Perhaps some links to articles proving that its possible for balls to fall to the ground?

are you likening a ball falling to the ground from gravity to this drm scenario? are you saying they are just as likely? :p

Snus
01-11-2010, 02:44 PM
are you likening a ball falling to the ground from gravity to this drm scenario? are you saying they are just as likely? :p

No, I made two independent plausible statements.

The first one about dropping a ball was specifically for you, to demonstrate that something can be plausible and need no justification.

I would hope that you don't still need evidence that balls fall and companies fail.

stinkfinger
01-11-2010, 02:48 PM
I stated that the ball hitting the ground was plausible.

I did not debate the credibility of gravity.

So long as the ball is dropped it IS NOT PLAUSABLE the ball will hit the ground.

It is FACTUAL that the ball will hit the ground. Seriously are you a short bus rider?

Where else is the ball going to go? Up? Are you going to catch it? That's not plausibility, that intentional manipulation!

Ardbug
01-11-2010, 03:00 PM
It is not factul, a hurricane could carry it to the sea, Al Queaiedadada could drop a nuke and incinerate it in midair, the earth could explode and send the ball flying into the emptyness of space, 2 african swallows with a string attached between them could pick it up, a tornado could form above and suck the ball up and into the sea, someone might pass and kick the thing before it hit the ground, a dog might mistake it for playtime and grab it, and so on, its not factual unless there is no doubt :)

Snus
01-11-2010, 03:07 PM
So long as the ball is dropped it IS NOT PLAUSABLE the ball will hit the ground.

It is FACTUAL that the ball will hit the ground. Seriously are you a short bus rider?

Where else is the ball going to go? Up? Are you going to catch it? That's not plausibility, that intentional manipulation!

You'd seriously declare that as fact without bothering to ask:

1) Where is the ground with reference to the ball?
If I drop a ball in space, will it hit the ground?

2) Is the ball in motion with reference to the ground?
If the person holding the ball is moving at escape velocity, will the ball hit the ground?

3) What is considered 'ground'?
If I am on Mars, do I consider Mars the ground or Earth?

4) How long will the ball be observed?
If the ball is a helium filled weather balloon, will it hit the ground within the next hour?

What if someone catches it before it hits the ground?

Be careful with your 'facts', thats why I said it was likely to hit the ground, not guaranteed.

Though I'm not sure why you're busy questioning my knowledge of physics in an 11 page discussion about DRM.

oto niel
01-11-2010, 03:10 PM
Be careful with your 'facts', thats why I said it was likely to hit the ground, not guaranteed.

I've been telling him to take his medication, he just won't

stinkfinger
01-11-2010, 05:36 PM
You'd seriously declare that as fact without bothering to ask:

1) Where is the ground with reference to the ball?
If I drop a ball in space, will it hit the ground?

2) Is the ball in motion with reference to the ground?
If the person holding the ball is moving at escape velocity, will the ball hit the ground?

3) What is considered 'ground'?
If I am on Mars, do I consider Mars the ground or Earth?

4) How long will the ball be observed?
If the ball is a helium filled weather balloon, will it hit the ground within the next hour?

What if someone catches it before it hits the ground?

Be careful with your 'facts', thats why I said it was likely to hit the ground, not guaranteed.

Though I'm not sure why you're busy questioning my knowledge of physics in an 11 page discussion about DRM.

Of course, you take the argument here, are you female or really this moronic. You change your for instance every post. Now you are in space? LOL

When is the next time you will be in space? Space, and Mars are Moot, the hand is a cop out. If you wanna get stupid on your level, yes eventually the hand holding the ball will release the ball it, if if because of death.

Oh wait its a ROBOT HAND! YOU GOT ME!

Escape velocity or not the energy will dissipate and friction will come into play and it will indeed hit the ground.

You will never be in space, you will never be on Mars, you are too slow to catch a ball.

I only quoted your own words. You can't make up stupid nonsense to justify your rambling.

stinkfinger
01-11-2010, 05:41 PM
I've been telling him to take his medication, he just won't
Why don't you write me that script Doc. Rather be crazy than a Moron any day.

Fozzy the bear
01-11-2010, 05:44 PM
lame thread is lame.

stinkfinger
01-11-2010, 05:50 PM
Steam has a large customer base, and a profitable business model, therefore it would be picked up and supported by another distributor. Can't say the same for Wings of Prey publishers and developers. Which is a problem since the lifetime of their game is dependent on how long they choose to support it.



You're essentially asking me to prove thats its plausible for a company to fail to provide support for a product/service due to financial issues, corporate takeover, or negligence. Easy enough:

http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/30/news/economy/auto_warrantees/index.htm

Surely another company could have stepped in and provided support as you suggested earlier in your example? Well no one did, leading to government intervention. Somehow I don't think the government will come to save the day when my activations run out.



The buyer will pick and choose what terms they will agree to, and somehow I think they wouldn't consider continuation of customer support for a 1-5 year old game as profitable. Chances are, by the time YuPlay falls off the map, trying to offer DLC would be laughable. At best, they might buy the license to the game so that they can make a sequel. But in no form or fashion would they be obligated to make sure you can still activate your old game.

I really don't understand how you could think someone is always going to be there to answer our email requests for activations for this game 1-5 years down the road.



Yep, thats the question, there will eventually be a time where I have to email someone to allow me to install my game, what if no one answers that email? And this isnt the only game with this issue.

You are saying everything I said already. Steam is not bullet proof. Steam was small once too, and as is still has many whom do not like the service. Just ask some old timers what they think about GM Motors, every on will tell you they would of never thought it would happen. GM is no comparison to Steam.

And why would the Government be involved , again apples and oranges, Oil is not involved.

I was keeping the debate about "GAME COMPANY'S" buying out other Game Company's. Which is established and documented. Does everyone here resort to straw man tactics to try to make points?

stinkfinger
01-11-2010, 05:58 PM
Are you still doubtful? Do you require that I provide a video showing proof that a ball falling from my hand hits the ground? Perhaps some links to articles proving that its possible for balls to fall to the ground? Do you not trust your own rational judgement and base your decision solely on me providing you with some kind of online justification right this instant, else my words must be meaningless?



See your own words, no mention of space, Mars, or a hand "catching".

In fact the words you used are, "a ball falling from my hand"

Not "my hand catching the ball".

Get a grip.

You whiners don't like DRM, good, don't buy the game, problem solved.

oto niel
01-11-2010, 06:27 PM
Why don't you write me that script Doc. Rather be crazy than a Moron any day.

of the SPD I can cure you, of the borderline moronitis you are suffering unfortunately not. :(

Ranmaru
01-11-2010, 07:49 PM
You whiners don't like DRM, good, don't buy the game, problem solved.

I think tis is the only smart thing you have said, and tis just what I did.

I'd like to ask a little something:

What kind of DRM is used in consoles?

I guess my question leads to: /thread

Oh, I am so in need of a Morrigan avatar for my appearances.

Murdats
01-11-2010, 08:23 PM
well I am not going to quote you here stinkfinger because your crazy ramblings are too plentiful

1. the whole being in space and whatnot was meant to prove that when you stated something as FACT! you did it with very little information, they mentioned how indeed it was not a FACT! that when you drop a ball it hits the ground, its just a likely scenario.

also you keep claiming that gaijin will be bought out if it fails because lots of other game companies have.

I would like to point out as well that a lot of game companies haven't, its usually the ones with a library of IP or games that get bought, outside of russia gaijin owns almost no games, half of them are based on movies so they have very little IP.

it seems you are way to quick to focus on the unimportant parts of peoples comments and spend pages rambling about something that is totally not the point, rather then arguing the actual point of someones comment, this is not a good debating tactic, it in fact makes you look like you argue the pointless parts because you can't argue the actual point

I am also a little annoyed that you have essentially hijacked what was meant to be a straw poll thread

vindolin
01-12-2010, 06:46 AM
almost bought it.

Snus
01-12-2010, 08:24 AM
Well that was quite a bit of rambling stinkfinger, still missing the point though.


I was keeping the debate about "GAME COMPANY'S" buying out other Game Company's. Which is established and documented. Does everyone here resort to straw man tactics to try to make points?

You seem to be convinced that another game company will always step in and provide DRM authentications if the original publisher fails to stay afloat. This is not a fact and it would be foolish to assume it will always happen.

So far your only response is that it you've never heard of DRM servers being shut down, and you wouldn't believe it could happen without proof.

There's already been a DRM server scare with music, what's to stop it from happening with games?

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2008/04/drm-sucks-redux-microsoft-to-nuke-msn-music-drm-keys.ars
http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2008/09/wal-mart-latest-to-shut-down-drm-key-servers.ars
http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2008/07/drm-still-sucks-yahoo-music-going-dark-taking-keys-with-it.ars

Someone has to pay to keep those servers running, and pay salaries to provide customer support. It's not unreasonable to consider the possibility that someday the money will run out, and no one will answer your email request for an activation.

Demo_Boy
01-12-2010, 09:07 AM
Starforce breaks my computer, so thank you for saving me from buying this game.




So just like every other game forum with third party DRM this is the obligatory "No sale for you" thread, also to warn those who don't realise this game comes with

3 activation limit Starforce

because the store page doesn't mention it.
if steam will refund me this game (because there was no thread or store warning about it) then that is a lost sale from me, otherwise I guess I got suckered into buying a gimped game.

Fozzy the bear
01-12-2010, 09:27 AM
Well that was quite a bit of rambling stinkfinger, still missing the point though.



You seem to be convinced that another game company will always step in and provide DRM authentications if the original publisher fails to stay afloat. This is not a fact and it would be foolish to assume it will always happen.

So far your only response is that it you've never heard of DRM servers being shut down, and you wouldn't believe it could happen without proof.

There's already been a DRM server scare with music, what's to stop it from happening with games?

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2008/04/drm-sucks-redux-microsoft-to-nuke-msn-music-drm-keys.ars
http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2008/09/wal-mart-latest-to-shut-down-drm-key-servers.ars
http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2008/07/drm-still-sucks-yahoo-music-going-dark-taking-keys-with-it.ars

Someone has to pay to keep those servers running, and pay salaries to provide customer support. It's not unreasonable to consider the possibility that someday the money will run out, and no one will answer your email request for an activation.

Good read my friend. You made a very valid point in the last paragraph. Since I know that most Russian software firms always seem to belly up, this is all the more reason why I don't like this DRM business.

yogibbear
01-12-2010, 11:55 AM
Hello again,
If any of you are really serious about the comments concerning the DRM you might consider emailing the company directly. I found the parent company for the game Gaijin Entertainment by going to the Wings of Prey website. This is the contact info that they have on the Gaijin Entertainment site.

-snip-
I just sent him an email voicing my opposition to their use of DRM

Hey, I just emailed Anton, and got a reply very snappy. Wasn't expecting a reply actually. So I find it very humbling that I would receive a response to my query regarding the possibility of a Starforce-less Steam version for sale. Anywho, basically Anton wrote to me that the version of Starforce FrontLine (whatever it's called) is not the same as what we call Starforce [as it doesn't install to the OS, and is only running when the game is running]. I interpret this to mean that it's kind of like the Securom version that runs with Mass Effect plus then the 3 activations/10 deactivation deal.

Hm... going to ponder whether to buy this one or not overnight. I really want to support developers of niche genres, but they're making it hard for me to hand over my money. :eek:

Guat
01-12-2010, 01:52 PM
Hm... going to ponder whether to buy this one or not overnight. I really want to support developers of niche genres, but they're making it hard for me to hand over my money. :eek:

This is exactly where i'm standing.

One of the things i love about steam and the reason i buy my games here is because i like the feature of being able to download my games wherever i am without having to go through any hoops for an activation, but the 3 installation limit on a service like steam seems counter productive in the first place.

It would be an easy sell to me if they removed the 3/10 limit on the steam version.

Guat
01-12-2010, 01:59 PM
Oh, and one more thing if any of the developers read this forum.

I understand that you want to protect your work, but nothing you do will stop people from pirating the game. All this DRM stuff only brings problems to legal owners and scare potential buyers.

Steam has shown that this is all the DRM gamers need because Steam is convenient.

Plus, people who pirate game do not care about DRM, people who buy games do.

Sky_Rail
01-12-2010, 05:42 PM
Another thing. I Played the demo the game looks beautiful and is fun but because of the DRM I will not buy it. My loss? Nope. Will losing one sale or 50 matter? probably not. One point and I am just making these numbers up for every one player not buying because of DRM there are probably thousands pirating it.

Jalek
01-12-2010, 05:46 PM
You whiners don't like DRM, good, don't buy the game, problem solved.

Welcome to page 1 of the thread. Did you notice the subject prior to ranting?
I think it was more advisory at that point than anything.

The DRM was somewhat disappointing, I'd logged into Steam for the first time in a couple of weeks looking for a sim, but I guess I stay with my Ubisoft games.

preefix
01-12-2010, 07:38 PM
I was just looking @ this game in the Steam store thinking.. hmm maybe. I'm glad i stopped here first. I'm planning on upgrading my PC in < 4 months so that'd only leave one more activation after that. F-that sh*t. DRM itself doesn't necessarily scare me off, but 3 activations? rott in hell.

mriguy
01-12-2010, 08:07 PM
WHAT WERE THEY THINKING ???
Why a company would select StarForce as their DRM is beyond me.
I do not care how benign they claim their new and improved FrontLine is, it feels like they are forcing me to give the keys of my house to a known felon. StarForce should have been shut down long ago. Even companies like Ubisoft have jumped ship in favor of others.

Out of all the DRM schemes out there, StarForce (as a company) has the worst reputation in the industry.

I really wanted this title while I waited for 'Storm of War: Battle of Britain'. I am strongly against limited activations, but if you must do it follow Egosoft's lead of removing it after a year. This way people that are firmly against additional DRM can simply wait and get it on a good weekend deal.

I will not repeat my mantra that third party DRM is not needed on Steam and actually hinders sales. Instead I will thank Gaijin Entertainment for helping me decide which flight simulator I will endorse, and it's NOT 'Wings of Prey'.

Redboy
01-12-2010, 09:40 PM
Pardon my ignore this can reset back to 3 activation after 3 months something ?

Sgt Jigglebelly
01-12-2010, 11:25 PM
Anywho, basically Anton wrote to me that the version of Starforce FrontLine (whatever it's called) is not the same as what we call Starforce [as it doesn't install to the OS, and is only running when the game is running].

i don't think you could even get some of these people to notice or accept that if you slapped them in the face with it :p

Murdats
01-13-2010, 04:20 AM
i don't think you could even get some of these people to notice or accept that if you slapped them in the face with it :p

and you have failed to notice that most of our arguments arent about the version of starforce being used.

its about a restriction on our consumer rights, the companies attitudes towards its customers (one a small publisher can't afford, especially with a fairly niche title), starforces attitude towards everyone and the needless installation of potentially harmful software (they have a bad track record, and if not harmful then a waste of resources)

I own almost 200 games on steam, I dont want my future to be taking half a day off to wait for them all to dial home to unregister my game, and while I do want this game, there are plenty of other games and publishers out there that have shown they won't insult me after taking my money, I feel they deserve it more

Ranmaru
01-13-2010, 05:11 AM
i don't think you could even get some of these people to notice or accept that if you slapped them in the face with it :p

We have noticed, we don't like it.

In fact, remove it, put there SecuROM, GFWL, Rockstar Social Club, TAGES and then Booby trap it and I'm in.

That's how much I love Frontline, (or any other Starforce product).

No, I don't like how their DRM works, even if its serverside, and no, time wont make me like it.

Also I don't think you are aware that some of us do have game consoles apart from gaming pcs, and while consoles are cheaper and pretty easy to pirate, there ins't crap like this in their games.

oto niel
01-13-2010, 08:14 AM
i don't think you could even get some of these people to notice or accept that if you slapped them in the face with it :p

all you do is dish half butted remarks full of pathetic attempts at sarcasm, why don't you just come forward with some real life facts that the drm is not starforce and does not comes from starforce?

ChurchBurner
01-13-2010, 09:25 AM
Thanks for the heads-up, this is something which should always be VERY CLEARLY STATED at every stage, to enable consumers to make an informed decision on whether to buy it. I was ready to make a frivolous purchase I would have regretted when I saw this thread.

Just to be clear for the "debunkers", lots of gamers have come to their own conclusions about Starforce, and do not want to buy anything that involves it - so please don't think it's relevant for you to argue us into it after the fact. Who cares. If you don't mind, buy it.

Consumers have a right to know what they're buying, thanks again.

CJRamze
01-13-2010, 09:39 AM
After 10 years of gaming. Don't understand the problem with starforce.
Installed on mine fine, 3 Activations and if I need more I email a dude? Crappy yes! Reason to boycott the game?

No.

Ranmaru
01-13-2010, 09:50 AM
After 10 years of gaming. Don't understand the problem with starforce.

After 25 years of the same, I sure do.

Installed on mine fine, 3 Activations and if I need more I email a dude? Crappy yes!

Will that dude be there for you always?

Reason to boycott the game?

No.

No, we boycott STARFORCE, we would gladly buy the game.

Pilotclan9404
01-13-2010, 10:31 AM
This game looked so awesome... graphics.. achievements.. controller support.. but then I went to forums to read that it have Starforce with 3 install limits -.-' no sale for me :(

WHY DOES IT SAY 10? and i agree starforce DRM fails

Mavi222
01-13-2010, 10:33 AM
WHY DOES IT SAY 10? and i agree starforce DRM fails

10 are uninstall limits I think

milkweg
01-13-2010, 11:49 AM
and you have failed to notice that most of our arguments arent about the version of starforce being used.

its about a restriction on our consumer rights, the companies attitudes towards its customers (one a small publisher can't afford, especially with a fairly niche title), starforces attitude towards everyone and the needless installation of potentially harmful software (they have a bad track record, and if not harmful then a waste of resources)

I own almost 200 games on steam, I dont want my future to be taking half a day off to wait for them all to dial home to unregister my game, and while I do want this game, there are plenty of other games and publishers out there that have shown they won't insult me after taking my money, I feel they deserve it more

Exactly. I bought the uBoat add-on to Silent Hunter4 direct from Ubisoft. The ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥s only gave me one activation. Every time I re-install the add-on I have to contact Ubi for a new activation. That takes a good day or so and annoys the ♥♥♥♥ out of me.

Snus
01-13-2010, 12:30 PM
After 10 years of gaming. Don't understand the problem with starforce.
Installed on mine fine, 3 Activations and if I need more I email a dude? Crappy yes! Reason to boycott the game?

No.

I don't like the idea of having to track down and exchange emails with tech support to get permission to install a game I own. This gets more complicated when you have multiple games in your steam library using this method of DRM, and even more complicated as time goes by and you try to contact tech support for game companies that have gone under or changed hands. I don't want to put myself in a position where I'm having to contact 20+ different companies in a year or so from now just to install my games.

By taking DRM seriously, I'll avoid having my steam library filled with secondary DRMs that will cause a hassle later.

Phixion
01-13-2010, 12:45 PM
It makes me wonder where this game will be in 5+ years time when the developers have abandoned it and no longer want to spend their time giving out activations...

My bet is it'll be dead with no reply from the devs.

If the devs don't realise that their decision to use Starforce has severely crippled sales then it's their loss!

Snus
01-13-2010, 01:10 PM
Even now, determining who to send an email to for more activations isn't clear.
-the sticky at the top of the Steam WoP forums tells you to contact Gaijin's support but provides no email address.
-the steam store page doesn't have contact info
-the website for WoP linked from the steam store has a Contact page, but there are no email contacts, only a link to Gaijin's website
-the Contact page on Gaijin's website has three emails, none of which specify that they handle tech support for the game or DRM activations.
-hopefully you'll notice the forums for the game are hosted on Yuplay, which provides two more email addresses

That's five emails to contact just to find out who you need to send an email to for DRM activations. Now figure in russian business hours and waiting for responses, then go explain to your friends what's taking so long for you to get WoP installed and join their game. And that's just one game, some of us own quite a few games.

I would hope that the game will at least tell you exactly who to contact when you've run out of activations to save you some trouble. If it doesn't, I wonder how much trouble it will be to figure out who to email a few years from now.

RogMcDog
01-13-2010, 01:13 PM
I really want this game but there is no way I'm putting it on my PC if it contains Starforce. As soon as a Starforce free version is available on Steam I'll buy it - but until then...

bazjak
01-13-2010, 01:17 PM
Awsome game,just played demo,but im afraid no sale unless this is sorted steam.
Tell these fools, sorry i mean publishers, to get there act together and they will have a lot of sales.
If they read these foruns and don't act they deserve to go under,and i for one wont be crying for them becouse they have lost there jobs.
Would be nice to hear from them.
Put presure on them steam you are a big big player in the gameing industry, so use that power.
Baz[UK]

Smokanci
01-13-2010, 01:44 PM
Same here, loved the demo. Almost went out to buy a controller and I saw this. I will not support a game with starforce or activation limits.
Thanks for sharing.

Chris_Ihao
01-13-2010, 03:42 PM
Being no fan of starforce myself, I have to say that it was the rootkit business back in the days that made me cringe whenever I heard the word, and it actually directly affected my dvd-burner (which was the main thing starforce could mess up in a system).

Now that this has passed, the term starforce is neither worse or better than any other activation drm around. I've stayed away from "Lock-on burning cliffs" all these years though, just because it was close to the release of worse versions of the protection scheme.

Personally I think copy protections make no sense these days, as obviously people find other ways to play these games anyways. However, I think a lot of you are putting this far out of proportion. Its like you are buying a frickin' car or something. IF, and I dont think it will happen anytime soon, Gaijin should go bankrupt or something, I would probably find a way to play my own game. The game servers would be lost no matter if DRM is involved or not.

I've been waiting for this game for some time now, so I'm just very happy that I bought it. If it at some point lose its DRM (with exception of Steam) I would be even happier.

Oh, and regarding the "if the company get shut down at some point" argument, nothing lasts forever. And guys, dont act like Gaijin will "go under" because of this thread. Thats just lame. In fact Wings of Prey was #9 on the steam top sellers list two days ago: http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.pl?action=viewstory&threadid=106218

If you dont get it. Im on your side here. There are however different ways of saying things, so dont be totally disrespectful no matter what you feel about the DRM. I dont know if this is the case here, and I seriously doubt most fo you do either, but usually its the publisher that choose what kind of DRM to use.

mriguy
01-13-2010, 04:12 PM
... but usually its the publisher that choose what kind of DRM to use.

FYI: Gaijin Entertainment is BOTH developer and publisher.

Chris_Ihao
01-13-2010, 04:29 PM
FYI: Gaijin Entertainment is BOTH developer and publisher.

Ok. I see thats what listed on the product page.

However, on their completely dated site I see that "1C/505 Games" are listed as the publisher on this page, which would be logical as 1C published the original Il-2:

http://www.gaijinent.com/projects/il2.htm

If I'm wrong here, their bad. If not, then Gaijin is probably just listed as publisher in the west or something. Not very likely however, as 1C have published some fine games like Kings bounty over here.

oto niel
01-13-2010, 04:46 PM
FYI: Gaijin Entertainment is BOTH developer and publisher.

apparently not:

Anton Yudintsev
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post Today, 09:16 AM
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QUOTE (FOZ83 @ Jan 13 2010, 05:22 AM) *
Please have the decency to get back on that forum and let us know what is going on./Quote


I simply can't. Not allowed, I mean. BoP's international publisher is 505 Games, and they can forbid developer's to have public relations - and they did it.

Chris_Ihao
01-13-2010, 05:02 PM
Good find oto niel. I dont know where you found this, but after looking a bit more around I think these companies may be distributing the console versions only though. Its apparently called Il-2 Sturmovik: Birds of Prey on the consoles.

http://www.505games.co.uk/Search.aspx?find=birds

http://www.1cpublishing.eu/games

In which case Gaijin possibly could be the actual publisher for the pc version, even though they also mention only the console versions on their site. Confusing business.

oto niel
01-13-2010, 05:18 PM
However, I think a lot of you are putting this far out of proportion. Its like you are buying a frickin' car or something. IF, and I dont think it will happen anytime soon, Gaijin should go bankrupt or something, I would probably find a way to play my own game. The game servers would be lost no matter if DRM is involved or not.


No we are not taking this thing out of proportion, I posted the example in another thread so I'll make it short here:

If, regarding to drm protected music, people didn't take this out of proportion right companies like itunes, wouldn't be offering drm free music, amazon dot com would not be offering drm free music and the wouldn't be a load of smaller companies offering drm free music because they would be subject to licensing issues.

That is why it's worthy to fight the good fight my friend


I've been waiting for this game for some time now, so I'm just very happy that I bought it. If it at some point lose its DRM (with exception of Steam) I would be even happier.


so I am, the difference between you and me is that I stand by my principles.

Oh, and regarding the "if the company get shut down at some point" argument, nothing lasts forever. And guys, dont act like Gaijin will "go under" because of this thread. Thats just lame. In fact Wings of Prey was #9 on the steam top sellers list two days ago: http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.pl?action=viewstory&threadid=106218

so? there has been a lot of talking about if the top sellers related to number of sales or the amount of money raised by X game, all along the holiday sales modern warfare 2 was on the top 10 sellers, and it never was on sale.

If you dont get it. Im on your side here. There are however different ways of saying things, so dont be totally disrespectful no matter what you feel about the DRM. I dont know if this is the case here, and I seriously doubt most fo you do either, but usually its the publisher that choose what kind of DRM to use.

We do appreciate that you are on our side, but if we have been disrespectful you should keep track on the "jewels" this Antone guys comes up with at the yuplay forums, he is always so full of crap that gets edited a little after, the most notorious one was that in his concept steam users were like second hand and that patches and updates and support come first for yuplay ones, then it was toned down to "special discounts", here is the latest:

Anton Yudintsev
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post Yesterday, 11:13 AM
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QUOTE (dano @ Jan 13 2010, 10:33 AM) *
1) If it was clearly stated you could end any and all discussion of 'I didn't know this had activations/DRM'.

It is mentionted in end user license agreement on site, that games we sell can have DRM.
It is mentioned in FAQ.
It is, in the end common practice to have DRM. Almost every game, every digital service (GG, Steam, BigFish, Real Arcade) do have DRM, and doesn't mention it on each product page (only in general information, sometimes).
I agree, that having 'different' DRM than common is potentially could be an issue - that's why it is now on Steam page.
Just write on each page of each game that it has DRM - is ridicoluos. This information is general.

QUOTE
2) Transparency, seems like you are trying to hide it by not putting DRM information on the sales page.

Yeah. By not telling obvious things.

QUOTE
That's because Steam is it's own DRM, not a third party one likely to cause bad feeling due to the developers past behaviour like Yuplay is using.

Gamer's Gate is also not showing that they use DRM.
And, of course, 99% do not care, which DRM exactly use - digital services, company's, or anyone else.

That's ridicolous.
This thread is closed.

We use DRM, because otherwise we won't get money at all. I don't know if you cares, but on PC that's the only way to have at least some money.
Even with DRM, sales are mediocre, compared to consoles.
Without it - games are not selling at all.

So, protesting against DRM - is useless. If you want support the game - buy it. If you don't want to support the game - then don't buy it.
Don't ask developers to remove DRM, just because you don't like it, without any real problems with it.
That's pointless.


http://forum.yuplay.com/index.php?showtopic=968
-----------------------------------------------------


PS
In which case Gaijin IS probably the publisher for the pc version. Confusing business.

you are right, it's confusing, and sometimes very hard to figure out, lot's of contradicting arguments, somebody around here mentioned that probably is because it's a regional thing

mriguy
01-13-2010, 05:24 PM
Here is a link to 'Wings of Prey' website.
It lists Gaijin Entertainment as both developer and publisher.
http://www.airwargame.com/eng/game/

It appears that Gaijin Entertainment has decided to self publish the PC release. I am normally excited about companies that self publish because it means that the developer has full control of a title's release. In this case it means any DRM decisions rest solely with Gaijin Entertainment. They could could remove limited activations from the Steam release if they desired.

Snus
01-13-2010, 05:25 PM
Oh, and regarding the "if the company get shut down at some point" argument, nothing lasts forever.

I don't expect to be able to play my game forever, but I do expect to be able to play it regardless of the financial status of Gaijin.

The fact that Gaijin could flip a switch tomorrow and make it impossible to install a game I paid for tends to rub me the wrong way. I'll throw in a car analogy and ask .. would you buy a car knowing that you can only crank it as long as the dealership you bought it from stays in business?

We chose Steam to avoid the hassle of keeping up with physical media and be able to install our games to any machine at will. At this rate I have more confidence in how long I can keep a physical disc safe than I do in how long I'll able to install a digital copy of the game.

At the least, they should have chosen a DRM scheme that renews its activations each month instead of using a fixed amount.

AnonymousPoster
01-13-2010, 07:32 PM
Warning, asking questions about the activation or the DRM on the yuPlay forums will now get your post deleted and your account banned. Anton actually replied to my deleted post by selectively quoting me and modifying what I had written.

The topic was here, http://forum.yuplay.com/index.php?showtopic=901&st=20&start=20

From the stuff he deleted and was unwilling to answer it seems that you can't request more activations unless you run out (only 1 will be granted at a time) and their support is obviously not 24/7 so if you run out on the weekend you won't be able to get a new activation earliest until the next weekday (dunno what their office hours are).

It also appears that this game can not run offline (no internet connection) due to yuPlay/starforce or both since he deleted that part when he compares their DRM to steam.

He keeps claiming that they are not using Starforce (different company, see a few replies above in that thread) and when I pointed out that their activation screens and help mention Starforce and the manual activation site is hosted on starforce.com that also obviously got deleted.

Sorry if this has been posted before, I've read through most of this thread now and didn't see it.

oto niel
01-13-2010, 08:00 PM
Warning, asking questions about the activation or the DRM on the yuPlay forums will now get your post deleted and your account banned. Anton actually replied to my deleted post by selectively quoting me and modifying what I had written.

The topic was here, http://forum.yuplay.com/index.php?showtopic=901&st=20&start=20

From the stuff he deleted and was unwilling to answer it seems that you can't request more activations unless you run out (only 1 will be granted at a time) and their support is obviously not 24/7 so if you run out on the weekend you won't be able to get a new activation earliest until the next weekday (dunno what their office hours are).

It also appears that this game can not run offline (no internet connection) due to yuPlay/starforce or both since he deleted that part when he compares their DRM to steam.

He keeps claiming that they are not using Starforce (different company, see a few replies above in that thread) and when I pointed out that their activation screens and help mention Starforce and the manual activation site is hosted on starforce.com that also obviously got deleted.

Sorry if this has been posted before, I've read through most of this thread now and didn't see it.

can you post the pictures to this thread?

Guat
01-13-2010, 08:10 PM
I have decided that i'm going to support the guys and buy the game from Steam.

I still don't agree with the extra DRM or specially with the activation limits, but at least i know for a fact that the developers have heard our toughs on the matter and have been willingly enough to offer their personal help. For this i'm going to give them all the benefit and trust them with my purchase.

I'm going to support them because i want them to know that there is people from the Steam community who is willing to support and appreciate good games, and this one is a great flight sim. Hopefully they will understand how important we really are and things could change in the future.

Fozzy the bear
01-13-2010, 08:21 PM
Why do Russians always act so shady when doing business? Is it their culture or years of living under Communism?

I wanted to buy a game called Tiger vs. T34 until I found out they use DRM, customer service via forums and email is all in Russian. Well recently, like most Russian software producers, they went out of business, leaving the consumer in limbo on how to get support for their game.

Suds13
01-13-2010, 08:28 PM
Warning, asking questions about the activation or the DRM on the yuPlay forums will now get your post deleted and your account banned. Anton actually replied to my deleted post by selectively quoting me and modifying what I had written.

The topic was here, http://forum.yuplay.com/index.php?showtopic=901&st=20&start=20

From the stuff he deleted and was unwilling to answer it seems that you can't request more activations unless you run out (only 1 will be granted at a time) and their support is obviously not 24/7 so if you run out on the weekend you won't be able to get a new activation earliest until the next weekday (dunno what their office hours are).

It also appears that this game can not run offline (no internet connection) due to yuPlay/starforce or both since he deleted that part when he compares their DRM to steam.

He keeps claiming that they are not using Starforce (different company, see a few replies above in that thread) and when I pointed out that their activation screens and help mention Starforce and the manual activation site is hosted on starforce.com that also obviously got deleted.

Sorry if this has been posted before, I've read through most of this thread now and didn't see it.

I see that the thread has been locked, but your account still seems to be active.

AnonymousPoster
01-13-2010, 08:46 PM
can you post the pictures to this thread?

I didn't post pictures in that thread. I thought they were already posted here or maybe it was on yuPlay (could be deleted now). I will try to look for them later through my history. I don't own the game so I can't take any screenshots of the activation process.

I see that the thread has been locked, but your account still seems to be active.

It isn't. I can login but I can't actually do anything, I can't start a new thread, post a reply or even send a PM. It just tells me I don't have permission to do it, so maybe not banned but just no permissions to do anything (I was able to post a comment on Antons profile though)...

btw, Antons quote about Starforce (post 35 here http://forum.yuplay.com/index.php?showtopic=901&st=20&p=5366&#entry5366)

Starforce is not installed, as mentioned many, many times. It's not using Starforce, but another program developed by the same company.

Actually not even the same company, I know for sure, I've signed agreement.
Although it is the same people, right. They've proven to be good engineers, but not customer's friendly - but that's not what engineers do. Now, it is another situation - customer's friendly DRM but still well protecting.


Wonder what he thinks this other company is called?

oto niel
01-13-2010, 09:08 PM
I didn't post pictures in that thread. I thought they were already posted here or maybe it was on yuPlay (could be deleted now). I will try to look for them later through my history. I don't own the game so I can't take any screenshots of the activation process.



It isn't. I can login but I can't actually do anything, I can't start a new thread, post a reply or even send a PM. It just tells me I don't have permission to do it, so maybe not banned but just no permissions to do anything (I was able to post a comment on Antons profile though)...

btw, Antons quote about Starforce (post 35 here http://forum.yuplay.com/index.php?showtopic=901&st=20&p=5366&#entry5366)



Wonder what he thinks this other company is called?

that is the thing the strikes me the creepiest about this guy, he signed the deal andb he is sure that it is the same guys, but it's different drm, but it's a different company yet he is not allowed to tell which one is it, yet in another topic he says it's from starforce company but it isn't starforce drm, yet in another topic he says it's starforce drm but it's more user friendly.

what is he hiding anyway?

PS
I know which pictures are you referring too, I've seen them there, thought you had different ones.

AnonymousPoster
01-13-2010, 09:23 PM
that is the thing the strikes me the creepiest about this guy, he signed the deal andb he is sure that it is the same guys, but it's different drm, but it's a different company yet he is not allowed to tell which one is it, yet in another topic he says it's from starforce company but it isn't starforce drm, yet in another topic he says it's starforce drm but it's more user friendly.

what is he hiding anyway?

Btw, the optical disc protection from Starforce is also called FrontLine Disc (http://www.star-force.com/solutions/products/fl_disc/). Starforce doesn't have a product called Starforce so I'm also confused what he is trying to say.

He did mention (or it might have been an admin) that they are using Starforce to protect the files (exe from being modified) so they could still be installing a driver on the users system. As far as I know the starforce file level protection works by installing a Virtual FileSystem Driver and all calls to the encrypted files by the application get routed through that.

http://fr.star-force.com/support/users/group2.php#21


2. Protection driver

2.1 Do the applications that require activation via the Internet use the protection driver?

No! Since such applications require no optical media in the drive and do not check the uniqueness of such media, they require no protection against optical drive emulators, and therefore, do not use special protection driver designed to work with optical media.

However, according to a publisher’s choice, some applications can employ the protected container technology; the driver is used in this case.


Not sure why they would be using Starforce otherwise, they authenticate enough through Steam and yuPlay...


PS
I know which pictures are you referring too, I've seen them there, thought you had different ones.

Would you have a link to them, I can't find them in my history?

oto niel
01-13-2010, 09:31 PM
Btw, the optical disc protection from Starforce is also called FrontLine Disc (http://www.star-force.com/solutions/products/fl_disc/). Starforce doesn't have a product called Starforce so I'm also confused what he is trying to say.

He did mention (or it might have been an admin) that they are using Starforce to protect the files (exe from being modified) so they could still be installing a driver on the users system. As far as I know the starforce file level protection works by installing a Virtual FileSystem Driver and all calls to the encrypted files by the application get routed through that.

http://fr.star-force.com/support/users/group2.php#21



Not sure why they would be using Starforce otherwise, they authenticate enough through Steam and yuPlay...



Would you have a link to them, I can't find them in my history?


StarForce product families

Currently known official versions of StarForce include:

StarForce Pro 3
Requires a "disk key" to be entered when the software is installed. This key is the same for all copies of the game, as it encodes the nature of the protection scheme as present on the master; this disk key is different from -- and thus should not be mistaken with -- the serial number which games traditionally use for online gameplay. An option to store the key on the product disk was added in later revisions.[2]
StarForce 3.5
Added support for 64-bit systems.[3] StarForce-protected software that works on 64-bit Windows can be identified by the presence of a .x64 file in the software's install directory. Earlier versions would reboot the system or simply refuse to run the application on such systems.
StarForce FrontLine 4.0
Fully supports 64-bit applications.
Fully supports Windows Vista 32/64 bit.
The first version of StarForce to pass WHQL Testing and be "Certified for Microsoft Windows Vista" .
StarForce FrontLine 4.7[4]
Seems it is just an evolution of 4.0. No additional information available.
StarForce Frontline 5.0 [5]
Provides a user interface for driver removal
Allows for the deactivation and reactivation of online-authenticated applications
FrontLine ProActive [6]
Provides DRM + Protection solution for web distributed games and applications. Disc binding replaced by web activation.

Protection Technology provides a driver update tool,[7] but it does not widen compatibility for StarForce-protected games. For example, to add 64-bit support to a game built before StarForce supported it, a developer would be required to create patches specific to their product(s).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starforce


PICS
http://forum.yuplay.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=882&view=findpost&p=4851

mriguy
01-13-2010, 10:50 PM
Just once, I would like to see a manufacture post a public news release or forum posting; that they have reconsidered the need for additional DRM on top of Steam and decided that it is not needed and will be removed.

It would be interesting to see how many people would gather around the developer/publisher and praise them.

I would gladly pay full retail, at that moment, just to say thank you.

This thread (and others) would be instantly replaced with one thanking Gaijin Entertainment for their dedication to their users.

The forum would then be full of people discussing what they liked about the game and what direction they would like to see the developer take.

The additional sales and enthusiasm of this move would make 'Wings of Prey' a poster child for the marketing gains generated by working with a digital distributor's DRM rather than just ignoring it.

Murdats
01-13-2010, 10:58 PM
Just once, I would like to see a manufacture post a public news release or forum posting that they have reconsidered the need for additional DRM on top of Steam and decided that it is not needed and will be removed.

It would be interesting to see how many people would gather around the developer/publisher and praise them.

I would gladly pay full retail, at that moment, just to say thank you.

This thread (and others) would be instantly replaced with one thanking Gaijin Entertainment for their dedication to their users.

The forum would then be full of people discussing what they liked about the game and what direction they would like to see the developer take.

actually I think with their attitude to their customers and the way they have handled this I think they would need much more then removing the DRM to redeem themselves. they made a crappy situation, then decided to just keep on digging

AnonymousPoster
01-13-2010, 11:56 PM
Reading more about yuPlay and Starforce and I noticed this...

http://yuplay.com/help.php?page=faq

I cannot download, what shall I do?

Perhaps your network, proxy server or firewall settings do not allow yuPlay client to connect to our network server or any other content sources. In such case please try to open the torrent file of the required content item with an alternative torrent client software, µTorrent for example. You can find the content item torrent file in the downloads folder which is «My Documents\yuPlay» by default. The filename represents the internal ID of the content item which you can find in the item full description on yuPlay web site or in the client.

So yuPlay is just a torrent client, if you leave it running in the background you are seeding the games... ugh. Probably not the case for the steam version since it allegedly doesn't run when the game isn't running but scary if you bought it directly from yuPlay.

Can anybody with yuPlay installed confirm if it seeds in the background, is there an option to turn it off? During download you must seed because the download speed is proportional to your upload speed, correct?

So them using Starforce is making more sense now, yuPlay is just a torrent client, no way to authenticate users (anybody can download, with any client) so they need Starforce in there to handle the authorization/authentication.

Murdats
01-13-2010, 11:58 PM
@AnonymousPoster

this would be very important to know for those in Australia who have their uploads counted

AnonymousPoster
01-14-2010, 12:29 AM
Yup it looks like the yuPlay client is just a torrent client. If you want an HTTP download then you have to buy a premium subscription, lol.

http://yuplay.com/story.php?title=Premium-account-30-days
http://yuplay.com/story.php?title=Premium-account-1-year

You can purchase this subscription to download any yuPlay content not only via yuPlay client or uTorrent, but also directly in your favorite browser. 30 days subscription

Seriously, this is too funny. So you buy a game and if you don't want to do any uploading (some people can't) then you also need to buy a premium subscription, so you can download from the browser instead of the yuPlay client. Wow, yuPlay already gets a cut from the game sale but apparently its not enough...

Still wondering if you can turn that off so it doesn't upload in the background (while not downloading), I might setup a VM tomorrow so I can take a look at their client (don't trust it on my machine, no idea what suprises will come with it). Unless someone with the client already installed can enlightem me.

Ranmaru
01-14-2010, 05:45 AM
+Rep Anon.

Music to my ears. Not only a very shady DRM but you are torrenting files, pretty nice feature for online play.

What I don't get is how they aren't publishing directly through Steam instead of Yuplay, I believe everybody did read what Tripwire's view was regarding the matter:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=25595

If I were in the business, I would most certainly not go for a company like that, I hope they're getting a very good deal off Yuplay.

_GoBBLeS_
01-14-2010, 05:53 AM
Still wondering if you can turn that off so it doesn't upload in the background (while not downloading), I might setup a VM tomorrow so I can take a look at their client (don't trust it on my machine, no idea what suprises will come with it). Unless someone with the client already installed can enlightem me.

You could just try Netlimiter there you can limit or grand bandwidth to individual connections/programs...

Mavi222
01-14-2010, 06:36 AM
You could just try Netlimiter there you can limit or grand bandwidth to individual connections/programs...
well yeah, but that isn't reason, have another software running only to stop uploading.. without telling
.... + rep AnonymousPoster, nice find... this is really ridiculous :eek:

Chris_Ihao
01-14-2010, 09:01 AM
Hi guys. Sorry for coming off so harsh last night, but honestly some of the comments here are pretty childish and uninformative. I was not targeting anyone specific with my comments, but rather a tendency.

@oto niel: I have many principles when it comes to DRM so please refrain from attributing me like that. You dont know me. Like I said I didnt get flaming cliffs which had a similar DRM, and even if I wanted that addon really bad I never gave in just because of this. Honestly I were not aware of the DRM in WoP until after I got it, but having already bought it I'm happy I did. Otherwise I would perhaps have waited myself, maybe not.

That said, I personally dont get so worked up about activation DRM's, especially when we have deactivation schemes. Dead space had a similar DRM, with activation limits, and while I find it somewhat discomforting I sort of accepted it at the time. Any developer/publisher with any self respect should release a DRM removal kit for their titles if they know they are going to go under, but obviously there is no guarantee for this.

Again, sorry for my tone last night. I completely agree that Steam is enough DRM for anything, so go on fighting the good fight.

PS: I were not aware of the fact that Anton have been acting in an unpolite "hard against hard" manner, which obviously isnt very good for PR. Love the game though.

Wow. I just read the glowing review on IGN, and someone in the comments pointed me here. Companies are still using Starforce? Amazing.

It is far-fetched, but possible, that the Steam people did not realize Starforce was in this game. (After all, have any of them commented on this yet?)

Very unlikely.

oto niel
01-14-2010, 10:40 AM
Hi guys. Sorry for coming off so harsh last night, but honestly some of the comments here are pretty childish and uninformative. I was not targeting anyone specific with my comments, but rather a tendency.

@oto niel: I have many principles when it comes to DRM so please refrain from attributing me like that. You dont know me. Like I said I didnt get flaming cliffs which had a similar DRM, and even if I wanted that addon really bad I never gave in just because of this. Honestly I were not aware of the DRM in WoP until after I got it, but having already bought it I'm happy I did. Otherwise I would perhaps have waited myself, maybe not.

That said, I personally dont get so worked up about activation DRM's, especially when we have deactivation schemes. Dead space had a similar DRM, with activation limits, and while I find it somewhat discomforting I sort of accepted it at the time. Any developer/publisher with any self respect should release a DRM removal kit for their titles if they know they are going to go under, but obviously there is no guarantee for this.

Again, sorry for my tone last night. I completely agree that Steam is enough DRM for anything, so go on fighting the good fight.

PS: I were not aware of the fact that Anton have been acting in an unpolite "hard against hard" manner, which obviously isnt very good for PR. Love the game though.



Very unlikely.


no chris, I was not attributing you anything.

zenpunk
01-14-2010, 10:49 AM
wow... I was just about to buy it... thanks for letting me know about the DRM. Whew... close call.

Morning
01-14-2010, 11:21 AM
3 activation limit Starforce

This is a complete insult.


What the ♥♥♥♥ were they thinking when they were implementing Steamworks features like the achievements.

Fozzy the bear
01-14-2010, 02:38 PM
This is a complete insult.


What the ♥♥♥♥ were they thinking when they were implementing Steamworks features like the achievements.

What do you expect from a Russian company that is out of touch with what Westerners want?

dozerking
01-14-2010, 08:20 PM
Dear Publishers: PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE GOD OR IT YOU'RE A FELLOW ATHEIST, FOR THE LOVE OF PETE!! Please remove DRM from STEAM versions of your games. This is a single sign-on service, so it makes absolutely no sense at all.

When the DRM is removed, I'll give you money, period.

Fozzy the bear
01-15-2010, 12:46 AM
Dear Publishers: PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE GOD OR IT YOU'RE A FELLOW ATHEIST, FOR THE LOVE OF PETE!! Please remove DRM from STEAM versions of your games. This is a single sign-on service, so it makes absolutely no sense at all.

When the DRM is removed, I'll give you money, period.

Agreed, signed and hopefully they deliver.

Dcode
01-15-2010, 03:56 AM
Gets my vote.

bazjak
01-15-2010, 04:50 AM
Would be interesting to hear what Steam has to say about this situation.
If the publishers wont respond to the fact that Steam is a drm in itself then why not pull the plug on this game,perhaps then it will give them the kick in the butt they need.
So come on Steam lets hear whats your take on this.
Baz[UK]

Panimala
01-15-2010, 01:40 PM
Was just about to buy this, but then I felt the urge to look up the list of planes included. Found the Steam forums and saw these threads about the DRM. And wow, am I glad I did. 3 times activation... On Steam? That's BS. The developers won't get a penny till they remove the DRM. It's Steam already FFS.
Signed, yo. I really hope Gaijin takes notice. They are a small company after all, and should listen to the costumers, or the to-be-costumers.

paralipsis
01-15-2010, 01:44 PM
Adding my "no sale" comment to this thread. As positive reviews started coming in, I thought I might really enjoy this game. But I have been burnt too many times by this kind of DRM setup to fall prey to it again.

+ activation limit DRM = -1 purchase by me.

RogMcDog
01-16-2010, 11:24 AM
First, we've provide description to Valve, they made page themselves. I asked them to add DRM note, as soon as I got that request here.
Second, as soon as they were able to - they've added this note. Now, it is on Steam's page (and it was the time you post your lies).

Wow - I can't believe this guys attitude (admin on YuPlay re Wings of Prey). I have the Steam Storepage in front of me now - the DRM note has been removed. So who's posting lies. Really I can not support anyone with this attitude to their custoemrs. Man this is how he talks to people pre-sales. God help anyono who needs help post-sale. Forget it. I'll keep my crappy £30.99 thanks.

freibooter
01-16-2010, 11:39 AM
Even when switching to the UK store there is a DRM note ... fairly well hidden but that's to be expected and it is where it usually is: under game details on the right, just below "languages".

It won't change much, however. The attitude of the developers is still surprisingly hostile and really doesn't make me want to support them at all.

Let's hope that we will see a sale on this game in the not too distant future - celebrating the removal of the DRM. :)

I can wait, I have enough other games to play. If that happens, great, if not ... well, I'll be fine.

oto niel
01-16-2010, 11:51 AM
Wow - I can't believe this guys attitude (admin on YuPlay re Wings of Prey). I have the Steam Storepage in front of me now - the DRM note has been removed. So who's posting lies. Really I can not support anyone with this attitude to their custoemrs. Man this is how he talks to people pre-sales. God help anyono who needs help post-sale. Forget it. I'll keep my crappy £30.99 thanks.

you mean the note that said:

You can only deactivate the game 10 times, then you need to email yuplay asking for more activation times.

Why the heck was it removed? it's the truth after all.

Could you post the original link for that post?

This Anton character is truly creepy, he implies that it was in steam's hands to having put the drm info in the first place, yet, as soon as the heat got up to him and decided to move his lazy butt and feed steam with the updated info, steam updated the info, yet he was there in the yuplay forums calling people liars :


QUOTE (syazel @ Jan 14 2010, 12:11 AM) *
I don't think so, a lot of people like me has asked for a money refund, because in the steam WoP page there is no warn about any DRM. Steam user generally hate DRM you can check it at WoP Steam forum.

Anton:
That's a lie.
There is.

http://forum.yuplay.com/index.php?showtopic=972&view=findpost&p=5657


as if it was there since the beginning.

It's been said here that it's a different business model because of regional difference, to me it's a business model based on lies and deceit, Antone is leaving gaijin's image on the ground, and covering it with ♥♥♥♥, this guy really needs to get fired, unless he is the ceo ;)

JuiceRabbit
01-16-2010, 01:44 PM
To the devs:


Steam is already DRM!

Why do I have to put up with another level of DRM on top of that?

This game is probably already cracked and on torrents. Thieves can steal this game for nothing and they don't have to put up with 2 levels of DRM!

I was going to buy but I'm too p*ssed off.

Why did you even bother putting it up on steam in the first place?

AnonymousPoster
01-16-2010, 02:07 PM
you mean the note that said:
This Anton character is truly creepy, he implies that it was in steam's hands to having put the drm info in the first place, yet, as soon as the heat got up to him and decided to move his lazy butt and feed steam with the updated info, steam updated the info, yet he was there in the yuplay forums calling people liars :

QUOTE (syazel @ Jan 14 2010, 12:11 AM) *
I don't think so, a lot of people like me has asked for a money refund, because in the steam WoP page there is no warn about any DRM. Steam user generally hate DRM you can check it at WoP Steam forum.

Anton:
That's a lie.
There is.

Notice how the original post by syazel has also been deleted, it is quoted by a few other members but the post itself is gone. Anton's reply is cencored, removing the list of URLs to forum posts of users complaining. I'm guessing syazel was also banned soon after posting that, same as me (Anton also called my a liar). In my deleted post I also mentioned that it was unethical and dishonest for their company to hide the fact that Starforce is included.

Syazel's profile: http://forum.yuplay.com/index.php?showuser=1071
It says he has 5 posts but only 4 show on the posts screen. If an account gets banned on yuPlay there is no status attached to the account, you can still login but just not do anything, this is because the forum account is the same as the yuPlay client account.

It is not up to valve to write the description for the page, provide system requirements or DRM information. That is all the responsibility of the publisher (Gaijin). Or do you think valve wrote the description for their game? What I think happened is that valve received a lot of complaints about missing DRM info and then asked/required/forced the publisher to provide that information.

Herodotus07
01-16-2010, 02:43 PM
If you look in Game Details on the Steam page, the DRM is listed.

MWMJoker
01-16-2010, 04:41 PM
DRM shouldn't dissuade you form a purchase. There is a very simple, easy way to get around DRM.

Get a secondary hard drive. Doesn't have to be super large or expensive. You can get a 500 GB SATA for about 80 bucks.

Move your Steam folder on to THAT drive and put NOTHING else on it. If your system ever crashes, you won't have to worry about re-installing everything.

Take Bioshock for example. It's got DRM on it. A limit of 5 I believe. I've had to format my C drive at least 7 times since purchasing that game two years ago but because it's on my secondary hard drive, Steam reads it as already installed. No fuss.

What's more, it's not illegal.

Fozzy the bear
01-16-2010, 09:42 PM
Russians run their business like the communist ran their government for all these years: tricks, lies, hostility.

fearlessfrog
01-16-2010, 11:58 PM
@MWMJoker - that might be because unless you're changing hardware (motherboard, CPU etc) then the activation won't change i.e. nothing to do with putting it on a separate hard-drive.

It's probably more to do with how the 3-limit activation DRM works out how 'unique' your PC is with Id's. A reformat and reinstall of windows on the same hardware might not even triggger the re-activation.

Personally I think the 3-limit activation DRM on top of steam sucks, but more because of the idea of having to email the dev to ask for more keys when I run out i.e. who knows what will happen 6 or 12 months down the line; and you might be left with a game you can't unlock (but have paid for).

Mavi222
01-17-2010, 12:27 AM
DRM shouldn't dissuade you form a purchase. There is a very simple, easy way to get around DRM.

Get a secondary hard drive. Doesn't have to be super large or expensive. You can get a 500 GB SATA for about 80 bucks.

Move your Steam folder on to THAT drive and put NOTHING else on it. If your system ever crashes, you won't have to worry about re-installing everything.

Take Bioshock for example. It's got DRM on it. A limit of 5 I believe. I've had to format my C drive at least 7 times since purchasing that game two years ago but because it's on my secondary hard drive, Steam reads it as already installed. No fuss.

What's more, it's not illegal.

Well this is just another bypassing of the DRM, and it cost money to do it (if you dont have another HDD..) and when you tried to format your drive sixth time? Before or after 20th June 2008? because then they removed DRM from Bioshock... ( http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2008/06/20/bioshock-drm-removed/1 ) and that was reason why I bought it instantly on Steam...

well maybe that bypassing will work even when you format only one partition (C:\ for example) and then it will still think it is installed? (And I am not even mentioning about the MB/GPU/CPU changing.. who knows what it does with this DRM...) ..

I dont know, but why even bother with this solution when the best think what can be done is removing the DRM...

sambeckett
01-17-2010, 08:53 AM
NO SALE = EXTRA DRM IS BAD! DUH

Phrix89
01-18-2010, 08:50 AM
No sale here thanks to limited machine activations and yuplay.

landstriker
01-18-2010, 11:49 AM
hahaha, I'm finding all these topics incredible entertaining to read.

bazjak
01-18-2010, 11:55 AM
Still no comment from Steam.
In my previous post on this subject i asked if steam would be doing anything about it,or remove from sale,so COME ON STEAM whats your take on this situation.
Be interesting to find out.
Baz[UK]

sammii
01-18-2010, 02:35 PM
Steam should punish the dev's for this, and sell the game half price ;)

Fozzy the bear
01-18-2010, 02:48 PM
Steam should punish the dev's for this, and sell the game half price ;)

Wal-Mart makes manufactures sale an item at a price they want it to be sold at or made into a more attractive augmented product. So why can't Steam flex it's muscle since they have a pretty significant market share that would allow them to call the shots?

fearlessfrog
01-18-2010, 06:54 PM
hahaha, I'm finding all these topics incredible entertaining to read.

ESL I guess? Yes, they are very good. Plus allows people visiting the forum to quickly recognize the DRM restrictions too. Thanks for playing.

suntox
01-19-2010, 05:51 AM
so funny. can anyone think of something more stupid then using a DRM that causes hassle for retail customers? after all no drm is save. anyone with internet access can circumvent it. so why the heck would you include a drm that gives retail customers extra work?

serial for multiplayer, thats the way to go. plus a drm which doesnt affect paying customers in any way.

avoid like the plague i'd say.

Poks
01-19-2010, 04:45 PM
I bought this game before coming here... I'm angry about this DRM :mad:

fearlessfrog
01-21-2010, 11:22 AM
serial for multiplayer, thats the way to go. plus a drm which doesnt affect paying customers in any way.

I agree. One thing I don't understand is that given it's 'steam' plus an online game already then why not just use the on-line sign-on, i.e. if you've bought the game and can sign on then that should be enough (like lots of other PC games without 3 activation DRM limits?)

Sky_Rail
01-23-2010, 12:02 PM
Just send STEAM an e-mail stating untill they stop selling DRM games...they no longer get your game dollars.

fearlessfrog
01-23-2010, 02:18 PM
Just send STEAM an e-mail stating untill they stop selling DRM games

Steam is a form of DRM, it's just a subtle middle-ground on what's acceptable to people.

Having a 3 times activation limit and another service to sign up (yoplay?) for plus DRM written by the same people as Starforce (remember that, not cool) is a step too far.

With the amount of cash Steam makes I think that on retrospect they should have dictated terms to the devs about this game. It's still one of the few sim's here but must bring a much bigger audience than a russian games site would have, i.e. steam has the power here...