Weapon Balance thread

[WaZzUp115]

I'd thought I start this thread to discuss weapons and their balance, and what can be adjusted to make some weapons more viable..

There are several factors to a weapon, I will list them here.Range, damage, magazine, reload time, spread, rate of fire, piercing power, perks and weight.

In addition to these factors I have some ideas of other factors that can be included in the game to make some weapons better or worse.

New Factors
Ramp up - The more you shoot at a target the more the damage your bullets will do to that target
Knock Back - Either single target knockback, or have the target being knocked into other zombies which would then be pushed back as well.
Boss Damage - Some weapons could be better against bosses than others

List of Weapons
I think all weapons should have some slight knockback, with the nail gun not having anything at all in return for slightly higher damage, as this would make it stand out a bit from the rest and also be realistic

Handguns
Hand guns are generally weak because of their fire rate, and at harder difficulty they can't be compared to other weapons.

Glock
Beretta
Add more knock back and ramp up

Dual Glock
Smith & Wesson
Add a lot of knock back and more piercing power

Rifles
Good weapons all around with great accuracy, can definitely be used at harder difficulty.

M4A1
AK-47

SMGs
Good fire rate and ammo capacity, pretty decent for crowd control.

Nailgun
Less knock back than other weapons but more damage.

Mac10
Uzi
Dual Uzi
MP5

Shotguns
Shotguns are decent at low difficulty, but lacks the ammo capacity and rate of fire to be viable at higher levels.

Jack Hammer
Add more knock back

M1014 Shotgun
Add more knock back and piercing power

Super Shotty
Add more knock back piercing power

Heavy Weapons
The heavy weapons are probably what most people strive to get their hands on in a free play game.
With the flame thrower being a bit subpar longer into the game, and the grenade launcher being quite hard to use in general.

Steam Hammer
M79 Grenade Launcher
M240B Machine Gun
FlameThrower
Add a ramp up to make zombies take more damage the more you grill them, would make this weapon a bit better in the later parts of the game, because bosses would die a lot easier.
Also a perk that increase fire damage would be good for this weapon, or increase the duration of the fire and perhaps even spreading the fire from one zombie to another.

AA-12

Melee Weapons
Melee weapons are clearly the weakest ones and no one would ever use them at higher difficulty.
Add a lot of knock back and more damage to bosses, also a faster rate of attack with perhaps more combo's and more related perks..
Having dual wield melee weapons might be interesting and make them a bit more viable..

Machete
Crowbar
Hammer
Change into a large 2 handed sledge with a wide arc and a extreme knock back, but less fire rate

Axe

[ColdSeer]

Nice suggestions for the weapons. They obviously make the game easier without killing the balance.

[WaZzUp115]

- Separated all the weapons into categories and added some personal thoughts about each group of weapons..

I don't think all weapons will ever be balanced towards each other while still keeping some kind of realism and uniqueness..
Handguns for example will never be as good as rifles or sub-machineguns, but perhaps they could fill a role despite that.

A pretty good idea would be to have the lesser weapons drop early in the game while the better ones would start dropping later on.
This coupled with Jano_Lapin's idea of upgrading weapons through perks would be quite interesting and make the game a bit more challenging and add quite a lot of variation, instead of just getting a Mac5 the first thing that drops and sticking to it until you get the AA-12 100 kills later which can make the game quite dull..

[SnowBrigade]

Well there is a number of things we can do with the ideas here and we can still easily add this to the small update tomorrow which fixes the glitches/bugs of last Thursday's update.

Option 1:

We increase the firepower of the handguns and shotguns. Basically they should be viable weapons at any time of the game, not just in the beginning.

Option 2:

We could drop all non-automatic weapons: handguns, shotguns (excluding the AA-12 since it's automatic), flamethrower, etc. more often in the first few minutes of a game, and drop automatic weapons less often. Then as the game progresses, you'll get fewer handguns and more automatic weapons.

For example in the first few minutes: 90% chance of a handgun/shotgun drop and 10% chance of an automatic weapon.
As the game goes on, this becomes 50%-50%.

Option 3: Add both Option 1 & 2:)

Then we should also increase the melee attack speed by 25-50% so that attacks feel faster without the initial delay.

Thoughts?

[WaZzUp115]

I definitely think some weapons should be weaker than others..
A weapon being weak makes it unique rather than being just as powerful but different, by having weak weapons you can have more progression when it comes to weapon that drops, it becomes more exciting to upgrade to a slightly better weapon rather than upgrading to a different weapon.
Although each weapon category should have at least one weapon which is really good.

So I vote for Option 2, I would vote for both 1 & 2 but I don't think just increasing fire power would be the way to go.
I'd rather have each weapon be unique by adding knock back for the shotguns and Smith & Wesson making it play different rather than just making it as powerful.

I also think the idea of having mostly weaker weapons drop the first 1000 kills or so would be quite good, there should be weapons of each category but only the weakest ones, so as you progress you get better and better weapons which will add more to the feeling of progression, rather than getting the best first thing that happens.

Basically as it is now weapons aren't that exciting because it's not hard to get your favorite one..
And once you have it you won't switch, which means if you get it early you will stick with it, which leads to less variation because you just use the same weapon the whole game, which I think is sad because one of the best aspect of the game is that there are a lot of different weapons.

@Melee weapons
There definitely needs to be a knock back as well, perhaps even some combo moves like 360 degree attacks, but I guess that would be something for a later update, and I guess you don't have the code for knock backs yet?

@Flamethrower
I really like the flamethrower because of it's unique play-style, I'd love it if some more love would be put into the flamethrower to make it more viable further into the game.

@More weapons
By having weaker weapons you can also add in more weapons of the same types but that vary in power.
A Desert Eagle for example could be the ultimate Handgun with extreme piercing power, range, damage and knock back.

[SnowBrigade]

Hello WaZzUp115,

Then an Option 4 should be the one with the most strategic/gameplay depth, along the lines of what was discussed before:

- At the start of the game, only handguns and melee weapons are unlocked/dropped.

- When you level up, there is no 'unlock weapon' perk, instead three stages of unlock:

'unlock Shotguns'

'unlock SMGs'

'unlock Heavy Weapons' (Automatic weapons or Flame Thrower)

This could work since it gets rid of the general unlock weapons and instead replaces it with 3 useful steps.

[CaptainDingo]

Well there is a number of things we can do with the ideas here and we can still easily add this to the small update tomorrow which fixes the glitches/bugs of last Thursday's update.

Option 1:

We increase the firepower of the handguns and shotguns. Basically they should be viable weapons at any time of the game, not just in the beginning.

Option 2:

We could drop all non-automatic weapons: handguns, shotguns (excluding the AA-12 since it's automatic), flamethrower, etc. more often in the first few minutes of a game, and drop automatic weapons less often. Then as the game progresses, you'll get fewer handguns and more automatic weapons.

For example in the first few minutes: 90% chance of a handgun/shotgun drop and 10% chance of an automatic weapon.
As the game goes on, this becomes 50%-50%.

Option 3: Add both Option 1 & 2:)

Then we should also increase the melee attack speed by 25-50% so that attacks feel faster without the initial delay.

Thoughts?

Agree x100 with the melee attack speed.

[ColdSeer]

I think any damage increase on melee weapons would overpower them for those who know how to use them. An speed increase, however, would change the gameplay with melee weapons.
I agree with adding attack speed.

[WaZzUp115]

I think any damage increase on melee weapons would overpower them for those who know how to use them. An speed increase, however, would change the gameplay with melee weapons.
I agree with adding attack speed.

But can you honestly say a damage increase would make them better than the steam hammer or machine gun?

The one thing I want for melee apart from the speed increase is a huge knock back, I want to see zombies fly into the air as I come running with a hammer hurling it back and forth..
Because the main issue with melee is that you're way too close, a knock back would make you able to take on larger crowds and have some breathing space.
You'd still have to watch your back and keep attacking in all directions though.

Hello WaZzUp115,

Then an Option 4 should be the one with the most strategic/gameplay depth, along the lines of what was discussed before:

- At the start of the game, only handguns and melee weapons are unlocked/dropped.

- When you level up, there is no 'unlock weapon' perk, instead three stages of unlock:

'unlock Shotguns'

'unlock SMGs'

'unlock Heavy Weapons' (Automatic weapons or Flame Thrower)

This could work since it gets rid of the general unlock weapons and instead replaces it with 3 useful steps.

That would make those perks, must-have..
I don't really like it because it takes up 3 perk slots and a player can just unlock all weapons in the first 3 levels and thus ruining any kind of gradual progression making it the same as it is now but with 3 less perks.

[Jano_Lapin]

FlameThrower
Add a ramp up to make zombies take more damage the more you grill them, would make this weapon a bit better in the later parts of the game, because bosses would die a lot easier.
Also a perk that increase fire damage would be good for this weapon, or increase the duration of the fire and perhaps even spreading the fire from one zombie to another.

+1
Past about 1000 kills this weapon becomes useless.

But to me the problem is this: perks (experience) should not be too much linked to weapons.

I don't like having melee perks pop up all the time for example. So a flamethrower perk could be annoying too if you're playing with another weapon.


That would make those perks, must-have..
I don't really like it because it takes up 3 perk slots and a player can just unlock all weapons in the first 3 levels and thus ruining any kind of gradual progression making it the same as it is now but with 3 less perks.

I agree, I don't like too much using perks to unlock weapons. (also because they usually don't justify the cost)

Well I'll say it one more time ;) (I promise it will be the last time :D )
Experience for perks, and money for weapons. This could work, really. This obviously requires a bit of work to decide the values of weapons etc... but would really serve the gameplay.

I already see myself in front a group of zombies, wondering how I will pick this pile of cash (still thinking about an action key: you could need to quickly crouch to take the money) just in the middle of them to upgrade my glock to a beretta. ;)




Well ok, I stop dreaming: I vote for Option 2 (with a bit of Option 1 maybe)

[WaZzUp115]

A bit of option 1 is definitely needed in my opinion :)

Cash for weapons might makes things overly complex though..
I do like your idea of a upgrading your current weapon with a 'weapon upgrade' perk though.
And I definitely think there should be some kind of weapon related perk like the 'unlock weapon' perks we have now, as an alternative to regular perks.

[EnsignBlue]

The Magnum, as it is, is pretty much worthless. I'd cut its reload time in half so as to make it actually viable, and since handguns aren't that hard to reload.

Edit: Personally, the best way to balance melee weapons is to make a Storm Shield-sized circle around the player and have every melee weapon swing affect all zombies within that area, so that you can constantly cover 360 degrees. That would put the weapons on par with the rest of the arsenal.

[TSO]

"Having dual wield melee weapons might be interesting and make them a bit more viable.."

Perhaps a player can get two blades and melee attacks just become spinning motions but held for to long and the player becomes dazed. XP

[WaZzUp115]

"Having dual wield melee weapons might be interesting and make them a bit more viable.."

Perhaps a player can get two blades and melee attacks just become spinning motions but held for to long and the player becomes dazed. XP

Perhaps you could have both a melee weapon and a gun, and make the melee weapon drain stamina to balance it..

[WaZzUp115]

What about giving an XP Boost to the weapons with a low kill rate, to compensate?

[MSIMagus]

I think I would go more like this.

Handguns and machine gun type weapons - Increase to bullets not power(or maybe slight increase to power in addition). These weapons should never be high instant damage dealing weapons, I think they should remain as fast shooting damage over time weapons. Giving each of them a nice clip size increase could make them more usefull without having to up the damage they deal. The only weapon id say a power increase over a clip increase is the nail gun.

Shotguns and other limited clip/range weapons - Increase the power or the range(or maybe a very very minor increase to both)but leave the clip size alone. Knockback I question the usefullness too since usually I unload several rounds killing whatever is in front of me instantly.

The hand to hand Weapons I think are what are most needing of an overhaul. Yes I dont use the handguns are machine gun type weapons as often, but I still use them and never feel I die because of them. H2H weapons however I NEVER use, hell I lock almost every weapon I pick up just so I dont accidentally pick up a h2h on accident! Most of the times where I have picked up one on accident iv died shortly after....I mean id actually rather take a risk diving into a mass of zombies to try and grab any other weapon then keep using a h2h weapon.

Anyways now that iv ♥♥♥♥♥ed about them ill try and offer some suggestions. I think the idea of duel wielding could be cool, but not make sense when you are swinging a sledge hammer with 1 hand ;) I think a better solution is to increase the speed at which they swing at and also add a block % to all weapons. By this I mean make it so when your wielding a h2h weapon you either take a % less damage or you have a small chance for your character to completely block incoming damage(there could be perks to help these %'s). So it could be like 25% less damage taken while using a h2h weapon or 10% chance to negate an attack. This would make perfect sense too since with a handgun your not going to be able to block an incoming attack, but with a h2h weapon you would obviously have the abilty to use it to shield off attacks.

Flame Thrower is the one I use the least often of these. Id say give it a fair damage increase but its fine otherwise.

[WaZzUp115]

I was just going to bump this thread when I saw your reply Magus, I must have missed it..

Making melee weapons block attacks would be really sweet together with some kind of deflect animation!
I doubt melee weapons will ever replace projectile weapons, but I know Snow mentioned they were looking into having both a melee and projectile weapon at the same time and being able to switch between them so as long as they can be different and powerful enough but with a drawback(stamina usage), I think they will be really good in certain situations.

I also think knock-back could be really good for shotguns if the amount of bullets and spread was increased slightly, would make shotguns quite good for crowd control.

[MSIMagus]

I was just going to bump this thread when I saw your reply Magus, I must have missed it..

Making melee weapons block attacks would be really sweet together with some kind of deflect animation!
I doubt melee weapons will ever replace projectile weapons, but I know Snow mentioned they were looking into having both a melee and projectile weapon at the same time and being able to switch between them so as long as they can be different and powerful enough but with a drawback(stamina usage), I think they will be really good in certain situations.

I also think knock-back could be really good for shotguns if the amount of bullets and spread was increased slightly, would make shotguns quite good for crowd control.

Really, id just like to see melee weapons taken out of the game entirely. I feel bad that they spent the time programing them in...but honestly they just are not viable and I dont ever see them becoming so without completely overpowering them. When I first started playing this game I avoided melee weapons after using them a few times, as I become more and more experienced I find that I not only avoid them I lock every last weapon I pick up, even if its not a good one and the only reason I do this is because im terrified I might accidentally pick up a melle weapon.

[WaZzUp115]

Well if you limit melee weapons so they drain stamina, you wouldn't be able to use them constantly and they wouldn't be overpowered, even if the attacks would be really powerful.

[CaptainDingo]

Could work. Ramp up the overall usability of melee weapons significantly, and make them draw energy from the same pool you use to dive.

Would also make Lone Wolf a good melee perk.

[WaZzUp115]

Obviously, we'd still need to be able to have one melee and one projectile weapon at the same time and switch between them..

Melee weapons will never be able to replace automatic weapons without being overpowered, but they could complement each other..

[ColdSeer]

WaZzup, althought I agree with others when they say the best solution for making melee useful is to add the possibility of carrying a melee and a ranged weapon at the same time, I disagree when one says that it's not possible to make them useful without overpowering them.

You and several other players have made countless, useful suggestions, maybe the community just haven't come up with a good suggestion for melee?

My suggestion is :
We play a couple of rounds using only melee weapons, and let our creativity do the rest of the work :)

[WaZzUp115]

Well the thing is, the closer the zombies are, the more dangerous it becomes..
You always want to be as far away as possible, since it's very hard to have any control at close range and you can easily get overwhelmed, if you change that then you could just stand still and attack which would be overpowered.

I think the optimal solution would be to make several key changes:

1. Being able to pick up both a melee and projectile weapon.
2. 30% chance of a melee weapon deflecting a blow from a zombie.
3. More damage.
4. Large knockback radius (zombies get knocked into each other).
6. 10-25% Stamina drainage per attack (not sure how fast it regens which will have to be taken into account)

This makes melee weapons a bit more defensive than projectile weapons.
And quite powerful but also limited because of the stamina usage, so you'd have to switch back when you're out of stamina or be very conservative.

[Liliith]

Introduce weapon durability like in RPGs = problem solved. Right now it's about waiting for the weapon of your choice with no initiative to ever switch.

Easy to program in & allowing for OP weapons.

[WaZzUp115]

Introduce weapon durability like in RPGs = problem solved. Right now it's about waiting for the weapon of your choice with no initiative to ever switch.

Easy to program in & allowing for OP weapons.

Actually, limited ammo would make more sense..

But Snow has already told us they don't want to change the base game(free play) that much, but are considering it for new game modes.

[MSIMagus]

Actually, limited ammo would make more sense..

But Snow has already told us they don't want to change the base game(free play) that much, but are considering it for new game modes.

*would be extremely annoyed if the weapons had limited ammo or durability levels*

Wouldn't mind if as you said they did it in a different game-play mode...but at this point I really would like to see the changes to free play be limited.

[Liliith]

There should be something like HC mode. Many people can play freeplay all day long without getting killed once. It was suggested many times.

[CaptainDingo]

When you die, the game is removed from your library.

...Well, maybe not that hardcore.

[MSIMagus]

There should be something like HC mode. Many people can play freeplay all day long without getting killed once. It was suggested many times.

This I can agree to. Big difference between stripping a version of the game we all love to be harder, and coming up with a new mode to make it so a larger group can enjoy the game.

In another thread someone was asking for a map where it was darker then usual and hard to see the zombies. I think combining this idea with limited bullets and a few other ideas iv seen tossed around could result in a really nifty new mode for players who think their too good at free play.