portal 2 must be DX11

[illford_baker]

portal 2 must have a new engine that will lay the foundation for ep3, HL3 and L4D3. and for it to be future proof, must have a DX11 option.
edit: but i am in no way saying it must only be DX11, have a DX9 option. (to avoid flame)

[circumnombulate]

DX means addicted to M$.

[AXidenT]

I don't mind too much as it is the Source engine... But it would be nice. :)

[illford_baker]

DX means addicted to M$.
i am addicted and i love it. like openGL is better, why would we want macs to have it anyway? they don't game.
i am not trolling, being serious. if you game on a mac, you are a PC trapped in a mac body.

[MλRCO]

i am addicted and i love it. like openGL is better, why would we want macs to have it anyway? they don't game.

Quoted for truth

[circumnombulate]

i am addicted and i love it. like openGL is better, why would we want macs to have it anyway? they don't game.
i am not trolling, being serious. if you game on a mac, you are a PC trapped in a mac body.

It's not just MAC. We're talking Linux here as well.

[illford_baker]

It's not just MAC. We're talking Linux here as well.
yea, all 1% of them.

[circumnombulate]

yea, all 1% of them.

Maybe the reason there is 1% is because there's nothing compatible? Chicken before the egg. I can tell you that right now, the ONLY reason i'm running M$ is because of games (specifially valve games). If they ran on Linux, that would be my desktop OS.

[aforumtotalkon1]

DX11 support would be quite good.

[slayer20]

Gabe already said no DX11, only Larabee.

[Choster]

Valve should switch to opengl to ease development for linux.

[Directx10]

portal 2 must have a new engine that will lay the foundation for ep3, HL3 and L4D3. and for it to be future proof, must have a DX11 option.
edit: but i am in no way saying it must only be DX11, have a DX9 option. (to avoid flame)

No trust me, it wont

[HG131]

portal 2 must have a new engine that will lay the foundation for ep3, HL3 and L4D3. and for it to be future proof, must have a DX11 option.
edit: but i am in no way saying it must only be DX11, have a DX9 option. (to avoid flame)

No, it doesn't. Now shut up.

[illford_baker]

Valve should switch to opengl to ease development for linux.
i would rather the majority of users have access to beautiful DX11 than satisfy the small minority of linux users. plus, linux users are usualy crafty and good with their operating system, they can figure it out. (still no sympathy for mac though, they are still stupid)
No, it doesn't. Now shut up.
umad? mad cause bad?

[Sarge945]

DX11 = DX9 on Windows 7/Vista.

Really, thats the ONLY real difference

[illford_baker]

DX11 = DX9 on Windows 7/Vista.

Really, thats the ONLY real difference
nope, do you know anything about it? mostly the main feature is hardware tessellation, which allows for FAR more triangles to be rendered by a cards like the ATI 5000 series or nvidia's upcoming 400 series. things will be less blocky, like our cubes!

[Spectlaser]

Imagine smooth balls in Portal 2.

DX11 is a must!

[Sarge945]

nope, do you know anything about it? mostly the main feature is hardware tessellation, which allows for FAR more triangles to be rendered by a cards like the ATI 5000 series or nvidia's upcoming 400 series. things will be less blocky, like our cubes!

It doesnt really make that much of a difference. Not to mention that with the larger overheads produced by the later versions of Windows, it all evens out

[RomeoJGuy]

DX11 = DX9 on Windows 7/Vista.

Really, thats the ONLY real difference

Your face is just your ♥♥♥ on opengl, nobody had to state that obvious point.

[Sarge945]

Well since OpenGL is mainly OPEN source, it can be as powerful or as non-powerful as you want it. The only reason people think OpenGL is crap is because it hasnt been used for ages, so its only on old games. If a game company was actually willing to put the time and effort into it, it would do the same things as DirectX at a much faster speed, and it would be completely compatible with Windows, Linux AND Mac.

Fun Fact: The PS3 uses OpenGL as a base, so dont you dare say it looks crap.

[Lemonosity]

No.

10noes.

[RomeoJGuy]

Any tools can look as good as warranted, primarily how your art team uses your engine and everything will determine how the game looks.

Calling DX11 DX9 assumes all of the great improvements since dx9 are trivial. Dynamic Branching for one is a very great benefit. No longer having to write shaders many times for each branch permutations or the overhead of coding your own system to automate the process.

[peteypiranha128]

No more source engine? D:

[circumnombulate]

Well since OpenGL is mainly OPEN source, it can be as powerful or as non-powerful as you want it. The only reason people think OpenGL is crap is because it hasnt been used for ages, so its only on old games. If a game company was actually willing to put the time and effort into it, it would do the same things as DirectX at a much faster speed, and it would be completely compatible with Windows, Linux AND Mac.

Fun Fact: The PS3 uses OpenGL as a base, so dont you dare say it looks crap.

This. Does OP work for M$? You have to wonder why people stick up for DX.

[dengolmaurgin]

i am addicted and i love it. like openGL is better, why would we want macs to have it anyway? they don't game.
i am not trolling, being serious. if you game on a mac, you are a PC trapped in a mac body.

closed minded logic bungie used to only program for mac

[HG131]

Well since OpenGL is mainly OPEN source, it can be as powerful or as non-powerful as you want it. The only reason people think OpenGL is crap is because it hasnt been used for ages, so its only on old games. If a game company was actually willing to put the time and effort into it, it would do the same things as DirectX at a much faster speed, and it would be completely compatible with Windows, Linux AND Mac.

Fun Fact: The PS3 uses OpenGL as a base, so dont you dare say it looks crap.

The PS3 is crap.

[NChoodedsniper]

This argument is crap.

Dx11 honestly would do nothing important.

Honestly, i hope portal 2 is on just a slightly updated source version, same with hl2 EP3.

Valve doesnt need good graphics, they already make the best games.

[Pc_Madness]

This argument is crap.

Dx11 honestly would do nothing important.

Honestly, i hope portal 2 is on just a slightly updated source version, same with hl2 EP3.

Valve doesnt need good graphics, they already make the best games.

Exactly, Valve won't do a new engine since Portal and Episode 3 don't need one. If all your playing these games for is how they look, then you've missed something along the way.

[cwbys21]

DX11 would be nice, and since Windows should have updated all Vista users DX10 to 11 there is no point in doing DX10. If Valve really is putting Steam onto macs like it seems they are, it would be logical to put their games on mac as well and that points to opengl use, so the whole dx9/10/11 thing wouldn't matter. And if you think graphics don't matter, your wrong. You don't have to have cutting edge graphics like Crysis does, but it is needed to continually update them from game to game.

[adamspurgin]

DX11 = DX9 on Windows 7/Vista.

Really, thats the ONLY real difference

yeah, except for:

real time ambient occlusion
real time radiosity
hardware tessellation
dynamic displacement maps
etc...

[aforumtotalkon1]

DX11 as an optional option would be great.

[Cprossu]

lol nah....

Seeing what others have done, and knowing that somewhere close to 1/2 of the community is still running XP, I don't see being a must/locked down...

I do however expect some nice graphics upgrades though, but most of it will be in the confines of dx9 (or be able to make run with dx9 despite anyone's efforts), and will work just fine for most people.

[deek0146]

The main reason they won't do directX 11 is because only very new graphics cards have support for it. This would make the game inaccessible for people with less than a super gaming computer less than a year old. They won't advance past directX 9 until it is NEEDED. Since its probably not needed (as they are going to be developing this game in less than 6 months they probably are NOT going to make major advances in their graphics technology.) And valve for a very long time have not been supporting linux, and they are not going to start now. In case you didn't know, the original half life engine had the option to be rendered with directX OR openGL (probably only due to the fact that graphics hardware was less compliant with stuff back then.) OpenGL is not crap, valve have just gone with directX, since they are not going to support linux or mac, theres no need for them to make an opengl renderer.

[crazy_killer]

DX11 is overrated, just more Windows marketing. I still remember when they marketed the crap out of DirectX so that people would use that instead of OpenGL.

[cwbys21]

@deek
you can have both dx9 and dx11 in the same game. how do you know they aren't going to support mac? all the evidence points to the fact that they are.

[jimmysmitty]

DX11 = DX9 on Windows 7/Vista.

Really, thats the ONLY real difference

Um not really..... DX9 cannot support Teselation, SM 5.0 and quite a few other features that only DX10/11 can support. SO if they are added like in AVP, for example uses tesselation, than people with XP can't see the extra smooth Alien models but people with Vista and a HD5K+ can.

As for the OP, nah. DX11 is great and it would be nice to have a Source 2.0 but it wont make any difference. This is VALVe. The game will be great even if it doesn't have kill your PC capable graphics.

Besides, it was announced to be out this year which means it will be an updated Source engine. And a new engine will be reserved for HL3+.

OpenGL is not crap, valve have just gone with directX, since they are not going to support linux or mac, theres no need for them to make an opengl renderer.

OpenGL is not crap, but its behind DX by quite a bit. In fact the newest OpenGL is barely on par feature wise as DX10.

besides, not enough Mac/Linux owners actually game. And those that do tend to have a Windows PC for gaming.

[crazy_killer]

And a new engine will be reserved for HL3+.

Link to Valve's statement on this?

[Cprossu]

I can make dx9 support a lot of things that it's not supposed to by backporting certain pieces of code (and not very much of it)

./start rant
The big MS didn't do this, even though it's simple because they are in the business of selling new os's, not chasing around money that was already spent twice
./end rant

[jimmysmitty]

Link to Valve's statement on this?

Don't need a link to a statement. We have known that Source would be VALVe play engine for a long time and until there is a need for it or even a new game in the main series (Half Life, not Portal/TF ect), there wont be a new engine.

[kimr120]

Gabe already said no DX11, only Larabee.
he's sure lying. they will give a awesome dx11 suprise in portal (sarkasm) ;)

[surfrock22]

Gabe already said no DX11, only Larabee.

That was a long time ago. And seeing that almost 50% of Steamers are DX10 ready, it would be much more plausible to include 10 instead of 11..

Also, in that interview, I believe he was talking about DX10, not DX11..

[SaneDunk]

portal 2 must have a new engine that will lay the foundation for ep3, HL3 and L4D3. and for it to be future proof, must have a DX11 option.
edit: but i am in no way saying it must only be DX11, have a DX9 option. (to avoid flame)

Don't think so. HL3 will be the beginning of a new game engine.

[EVIL-JURA]

dx9 or dx10 is enough,dx11 does not exist :mad: its only better graphics on a few games!

[HyperTech]

One can only hope for DX11 in Portal 2 :)

[Rimo]

ITT:
people are unaware that things that will be possible with DX11 have been possible for AT LEAST 3 years on openGL. And as things get added and video cards get more possibilities openGL has been and will ALWAYS be the first one to include the new features. Whereas DX only gets updated if you pay for a new OS.

(And then we didn't even mention that openGL performs better AND on more platforms)

If directX will ♥♥♥♥ the gaming market more than it already has, there will be a huge gaping gap in the pc gaming market. And this gap will be filled up by fresh new blood. New indie devs that will dig a goldmine of unsatisfied pc gamers.

Even for business reasons openGL is the way to go for Valve. It might not go well at first, but in the end it's self-preservation.

And self-preservation is the ONLY reason DX even exists.

http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-should-use-OpenGL-and-not-DirectX
(read this carefully. it is a well written article, citing many sources and very professional game developers as well, as well stating cold hard facts such as nVidia bluntly stating that openGL is faster than directX)

/thread

[Vlad211]

Imagine smooth balls in Portal 2.

DX11 is a must!
That's what she said. But I agree with Portal having a new DirectX version. It should include DirectX 10 but not 11 because according to the Steam Hardware Survey for February, the majority of users have DirectX 10 graphics cards so they are able to run it so they should make a new DirectX version as well as keeping DirectX 9 for the older PCs. If Valve really wants to satisfy Mac and Linux (both of which suck for gaming) then they should go for it by adding support for OpenGL.

[Doomguy123]

No DX11 i still am at XP.
Also stop asking a new engine not everybody has the money for a fancy PC.

i would rather the majority of users have access to beautiful DX11 than satisfy the small minority of linux users. plus, linux users are usualy crafty and good with their operating system, they can figure it out. (still no sympathy for mac though, they are still stupid)

umad? mad cause bad?

What about the people with XP who cant do ♥♥♥♥ due to M$ forcing gamers to move. Dosent L4D2 look nice in DX9?

[johnjohnx2]

Oh man DX11 in portal? That would look so sexy.

[greenman19]

It'll most likely be a more tweaked version of the L4D[2] engine, which looks great by the way.

http://www.pcgameshardware.com/screenshots/medium/2009/11/Left-4-Dead-2-Maximale-Grafik-Jay-Gee-00.jpg

[MADDOGGE]

It's not just MAC. We're talking Linux here as well.

Maybe the reason there is 1% is because there's nothing compatible? Chicken before the egg. I can tell you that right now, the ONLY reason i'm running M$ is because of games (specifially valve games). If they ran on Linux, that would be my desktop OS.If you penguins would ever get it together and set a single Linux standard maybe there would be more people using it. But each one of you though wants to run a different flavor and thats just too much trouble for any developer to put up with.



And no DX11 is not DX9 on Vista/win7. It has more capabilities and is easier for the developers to develop using the DX11. DX10 is dead with Vista.

[Ath]

No DX11 i still am at XP.
Also stop asking a new engine not everybody has the money for a fancy PC.



What about the people with XP who cant do ♥♥♥♥ due to M$ forcing gamers to move. Dosent L4D2 look nice in DX9?

No DX at all i still am at Windows 3.11/DOS. Valve must make Portal 2 software rendered because I can't keep up with technology.

Considering the broad availiability of DirectX 10 hardware and the mass exodus of users from XP to 7 there is no reason why DX10 shouldn't be supported, or even be a baseline with DX10.1/11 support on top.

[Sierra Oscar]

You do not need an entire new engine for graphical improvements. The Source Engine is a modular engine, and is continually being improved upon.

[MADDOGGE]

DX9 is dead except for those still on that dinosaur XP. I still see DX9 support though just because of the kind of company Valve is. DX10 is a real dead end and has been replaced by DX11.




Edit: Giggles, Sierra, I love your new tag with the portals.LOL

[Doomguy123]

DX9 is dead except for those still on that dinosaur XP. I still see DX9 support though just because of the kind of company Valve is. DX10 is a real dead end and has been replaced by DX11.




Edit: Giggles, Sierra, I love your new tag with the portals.LOL

The dinosaur called XP sure is better than that Vista slug.

[MADDOGGE]

The dinosaur called XP sure is better than that Vista slug.I can't ague there, though it turned out to be a damn stable slug for such a rocky start. Still I love my Win7 like I used to love my XP. Win7 the only OS I actually bought retail and have never regretted the decision. I might even like DX11 one day if I every get a DX11 card!:eek::D;)

[Lysander]

The dinosaur called XP sure is better than that Vista slug.

Vista is an exceptional OS. The problem was just that most people didn't have the hardware to run it.

[Ath]

The dinosaur called XP sure is better than that Vista slug.

The dinosaur called 95 sure is better than that XP slug.

Seriously, how can you guys like that slow and bloated XP with it's fischer-price GUI. Windows 95 is so much faster and uses less resources.

:rolleyes:

[zpr23]

Gameplay over graphics.

[Redirect Left]

DX11 would eliminate alot of players with weaker PCs, unless it's made to also work with lower DX's, like other Source games.

[Darkmushroom]

ITT:
people are unaware that things that will be possible with DX11 have been possible for AT LEAST 3 years on openGL.
*SNIP*
Even for business reasons openGL is the way to go for Valve. It might not go well at first, but in the end it's self-preservation.

And self-preservation is the ONLY reason DX even exists.

http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-should-use-OpenGL-and-not-DirectX
(read this carefully. it is a well written article, citing many sources and very professional game developers as well, as well stating cold hard facts such as nVidia bluntly stating that openGL is faster than directX)

/thread
Rimo makes a good, if not heavy-handed, argument.
The link is an eye-opener.
OpenGL + VALVe Principals? Multi-platform success.

[rv3ags]

Not everything here with computers that pull DX11.

[Doomguy123]

I can't ague there, though it turned out to be a damn stable slug for such a rocky start. Still I love my Win7 like I used to love my XP. Win7 the only OS I actually bought retail and have never regretted the decision. I might even like DX11 one day if I every get a DX11 card!:eek::D;)

True.

[ozku]

Why should Valve waste time with DX11 right now? Only the newest gpu's support it, and there aren't really that many users who got those. Sure DX11 has many cool features that could make the game look awesome, but for a game that is (likely) going to be made of simple rooms with platforms and puzzles...I mean is it really that big deal?

The dinosaur called 95 sure is better than that XP slug.

Seriously, how can you guys like that slow and bloated XP with it's fischer-price GUI. Windows 95 is so much faster and uses less resources.

:rolleyes:

So what if some of us prefer using xp over Vista/7? Some people hardware runs Xp way better than vista or 7. Not to mention that almost all new games and programs currently support Xp. Yeah, sorry but awerage 2-3 years old laptop simply runs slower on Vista/7 than custombuild pc with i7, 8GB ram and brand new ATI card.

Sure if you got good rig then Windows 7 is ultimately better OS.

[ge6a_101]

Why should Valve waste time with DX11 right now? Only the newest gpu's support it, and there aren't really that many users who got those. Sure DX11 has many cool features that could make the game look awesome, but for a game that is (likely) going to be made of simple rooms with platforms and puzzles...I mean is it really that big deal?

quoted for truth

You have NO idea how angry I am because of DX11. I buy my new PC with my new video card that supports DX10, and just TWO FRIKKING MONTHS LATER Micro$oft releases DX11. I GOT SCREWED REALLY HARD :o.

[MithranArkanere]

i am addicted and i love it. like openGL is better, why would we want macs to have it anyway? they don't game.
i am not trolling, being serious. if you game on a mac, you are a PC trapped in a mac body.

Word.

Intel + nVidia + DX = "The way it's meant to be played".

Many people stick to WinXP, afraid of Win7 being anything like Vista, so I doubt they will make it DX11 only. Most games have both DX9 and DX10 nowadays.

Y have 7, and don't worry, it works way better than both WinXP and Vista.

Windows XP is losing support soon, anyways. So don't be surprised if we get DX10/11 only games in a year or two.

Just DO NOT touch Vista. That thing is gruesome in a WinME-ish way.

[littlenick]

Maybe the reason there is 1% is because there's nothing compatible? Chicken before the egg. I can tell you that right now, the ONLY reason i'm running M$ is because of games (specifially valve games). If they ran on Linux, that would be my desktop OS.

QTF, I dual boot. Still my Linux install gets barely any love because of enforced M$ use for games. Except when I played WoW. I booted Linux all the damn time! Yay for OpenGL.

[greenman19]

Gabe recently said they are happy with DX9 for now.

[Ath]

So what if some of us prefer using xp over Vista/7? Some people hardware runs Xp way better than vista or 7. Not to mention that almost all new games and programs currently support Xp. Yeah, sorry but awerage 2-3 years old laptop simply runs slower on Vista/7 than custombuild pc with i7, 8GB ram and brand new ATI card.

Sure if you got good rig then Windows 7 is ultimately better OS.

And I'm sure the same hardware would run 98 or 95 "way better" than XP.

A 2-3 year old laptop isn't really designed to be a gaming machine, it's like entering a tractor into a Formula 1 race and expecting it to win.

My ~3 year old laptop runs 7 fine (Could do with a bit more RAM to make things cushy), because I use it as it was intended, i.e. a laptop.

[MADDOGGE]

DX11 would eliminate alot of players with weaker PCs, unless it's made to also work with lower DX's, like other Source games.Valve doesn't work that way. They very much support backwards compatibility. Hell I only been a short while ago they stopped supporting Win98. Giving us DX11 isn't going to stop DX9 support, not with Valve.;)

[leahcim]

ITT:
people are unaware that things that will be possible with DX11 have been possible for AT LEAST 3 years on openGL.


Well no. dirextx and opengl are complete misnomers here. They are only apis. You don't need to use them at all if you don't want to. Unless you plan on running your 3d in software the only two interesting questions are

(a) What can your hardware do and
(b) What software exists that uses that hardware that you want to run.

So please name these consumer cards that, 3 years ago, supported these opengl "things" that, presumably, you are saying only the couple of months old 58xx and 57xx now support in directx 11.

Then name 10 games that are using the features of those opengl cards.

[MADDOGGE]

I actually miss OpenGl but can't remember a recent game I own that supports it. Lots of my old games do though. OpenGl support has been crappy for years from both GPU manufacturers and their backwards compatibility sucks and has crashed many older games. In the end though I just want my games to run. Whatever works I'll use.

[Cprossu]

And I'm sure the same hardware would run 98 or 95 "way better" than XP.


95 won't run on most current pc's without a virtualization layer because of a memory timing conflict that prevents it from starting, windows 98 and more than 512mb of ram is asking for trouble as well (because of a glitch), not to mention the fact that there are no drivers for the current crop of soundcards (intel hda) or graphics cards for 9x, and good luck getting your high speed USB to function properly... and then there's directx issues... correct me if I am wrong, but those are the reasons I can think of off the top of my head.


Windows 2000 today on the other hand might not be that bad though..

[GoDMiN]

No DX11 till HL3 or source engine 2, at least thats what I hope. I think too much work is put into making games LOOK good, more time should be put in to making it play well. Which is want valve does because they're not EA.

[Frozenology]

I want to run this game on windows xp and graphic using DX11 class
So It's possible with OpenGL only

[surfrock22]

You do not need an entire new engine for graphical improvements. The Source Engine is a modular engine, and is continually being improved upon.

How long do you think Valve will use this upgradable engine? Compare, say, the upgraded Left 4 Dead version of Source to when Source was first unveiled at E3. Underwhelming, is it not?

I understand that the majority of users run Source well it its current state. However, it would be awesome to see Valve "get back on the horse" of their innovations in technology, in comparison to previous years. Seems like most of their upgrades to the engine are an attempt at playing catch up with bigger and better things..

Don't get me wrong, however, Left 4 Dead 1 and 2 look great. Just not amazing, like Source once was.. :)

[HyperTech]

I really hope that Portal 2 will use DX11. I just bought a new graphic card today that supports DX11 :D

[BrentNewland]

Well no. dirextx and opengl are complete misnomers here. They are only apis. You don't need to use them at all if you don't want to. Unless you plan on running your 3d in software the only two interesting questions are

(a) What can your hardware do and
(b) What software exists that uses that hardware that you want to run.

So please name these consumer cards that, 3 years ago, supported these opengl "things" that, presumably, you are saying only the couple of months old 58xx and 57xx now support in directx 11.

Then name 10 games that are using the features of those opengl cards.


The entire Radeon 2xxx-5xxx series supports Tessellation via the OpenGL extension, and the cards themselves have supported tessellation since 2001 (http://blogs.amd.com/play/2009/09/09/directx-11-%E2%80%93-what-to-expect/)

The Unigine engine supports the OpenGL Tessellation extension, and here are the games that use that engine (14 total are in development right now) http://unigine.com/clients/


And as far as your two questions

(a) What can your hardware do
What your hardware can do doesn't matter, because the API (OpenGL or DirectX) can be used in a way that unsupported features are disabled in the game. And you can always replace your hardware.


(b) What software exists that uses that hardware that you want to run.
The software that exists that uses the hardware... is the API, which interfaces with the driver... etc. Using a different API can give you access to different features. Why wouldn't you want the option to choose new and cool features?

[illford_baker]

No DX11 till HL3 or source engine 2, at least thats what I hope. I think too much work is put into making games LOOK good, more time should be put in to making it play well. Which is want valve does because they're not EA.
1. valve has probably been working on it for a long time, hiring the best people to make a sequel to the game of the decade! look how big the announcement was!
2. your logic would assume everyone does everything, there are no programmers, no storyboard writers, just people. people do certain things, they specialize. though crysis looks good, it has a bad storyline because they just happen to hire more graphics guys than storyline guys. portal was such a huge success, valve probably hired tones of both, working for a long time. there is not correlation between quality of game, and quality of graphics.

[cwbys21]

DX9 is dead except for those still on that dinosaur XP. I still see DX9 support though just because of the kind of company Valve is. DX10 is a real dead end and has been replaced by DX11.
I know this is from a few pages back but I just wanted to say, dx9 isn't going anywhere anytime soon because that is what the 360 uses, so a port to the 360 will require it. It isn't to hard to support both directx and opengl because every multiplatform game has to since the ps3 runs on opengl.

[MADDOGGE]

I know this is from a few pages back but I just wanted to say, dx9 isn't going anywhere anytime soon because that is what the 360 uses, so a port to the 360 will require it. It isn't to hard to support both directx and opengl because every multiplatform game has to since the ps3 runs on opengl.Ummmmm you used the "C" word!:eek: I'm telling MOM. Forgot about the stupid ♥♥♥ dinosaur" holding back gaming progress" consoles, with one staring me in the face.:D

[illford_baker]

Ummmmm you used the "C" word!:eek: I'm telling MOM. Forgot about the stupid ♥♥♥ dinosaur" holding back gaming progress" consoles, with one staring me in the face.:D
consoles are a bad idea in general. can you just drop a new grapics card in a Xbox or PS3? no! is it backwards compatable? mostly not, new PS3s are not. and the wii? just with gamecube (all those other you buy and download don't count). consoles can kiss my crysis and dos games! like using a controller better? i got a wired 360 i can just plug into my comp.

[The_One]

DX11 would be a great addition to source engine based games, so hopefully Portal 2 has it.

[YoungScripter]

DX11 would be awesome.

[BiO_MaN]

No trust me, it wont

I love the irony !

[McMasterGold]

How does Valve support PC gaming by not helping move the technology forward? I'm not saying no to DX8 support, but seriously, start giving the DX11 users who payed more for new cards some advantage.

Yes, there is a difference. DX11 games look better (unless it's not implemented right) and games are more efficient to the hardware. It can use multiple cores for assigning tasks to the GPU and processes anti-aliasing more efficiently.

[-p0ppa-]

portal 2 must have a new engine that will lay the foundation for ep3, HL3 and L4D3. and for it to be future proof, must have a DX11 option.
edit: but i am in no way saying it must only be DX11, have a DX9 option. (to avoid flame)

i was about to flame you when i read your first sentence:mad:, but you edited you post now i can say nothing:p;) lol

[seseorang]

What would use the features of DX11 in Portal 2? Someone give an example as to WHAT it can be applied to and make you think - WOW, that's awesome.

Bump-mapping can be used on almost everything and that still looks good when done right

[Harry101]

What would use the features of DX11 in Portal 2? Someone give an example as to WHAT it can be applied to and make you think - WOW, that's awesome.

As has been said before; there are a number of things; although they may not necessarily create a 'wow'-factor, they would help to improve the game slightly:

Ambient Occlusion - much better support for more realistic shadowing and definition.
Motion-Blur - more realistic, dynamic and fluid motion-blur effects.
Tesselation - objects that appear to be much more detailed and smooth and run with greater performance.
Dynamic Shader-Branching - allows textures and other special effects to run with better performance.
Dynamic, Physical Water - better support for fluid dynamics (almost like the Gels) with realistic ripples and other physical properties.

Those are a few I can think of; not amazing, but it wouldn't hurt the game to have those features for those that have computers capable of it. Of course, DX9 compatibility would be there too.

Personally, I run Windows 7 and I love it; it's much better than XP in my experience. :)

[McMasterGold]

Not to mention that with tessellation you can use low-poly models that increase performance and decrease disc space requirements. And they look even better.

[Doomguy123]

As has been said before; there are a number of things; although they may not necessarily create a 'wow'-factor, they would help to improve the game slightly:

Ambient Occlusion - much better support for more realistic shadowing and definition.
Motion-Blur - more realistic, dynamic and fluid motion-blur effects.
Tesselation - objects that appear to be much more detailed and smooth and run with greater performance.
Dynamic Shader-Branching - allows textures and other special effects to run with better performance.
Dynamic, Physical Water - better support for fluid dynamics (almost like the Gels) with realistic ripples and other physical properties.

Those are a few I can think of; not amazing, but it wouldn't hurt the game to have those features for those that have computers capable of it. Of course, DX9 compatibility would be there too.

Personally, I run Windows 7 and I love it; it's much better than XP in my experience. :)

Ok first of all your bumping an old thread. Second VALVe is not even using DX10 and it still looks amazing. Third coders and developers don't even use DX11 at it's max. Forth VALVe makes there games run on ancient machines so I doubt they will integrate such a feature. Face it there's a lot more then people with 500$ HPs people with a 2000$ 5970 crossfire setup with a i7 930.

Also what would be the use for dynamic water in such a game? The gels work fine with Havock.

[p0rtalplayer]

Ok first of all your bumping an old thread. Second VALVe is not even using DX10 and it still looks amazing. Third coders and developers don't even use DX11 at it's max. Forth VALVe makes there games run on ancient machines so I doubt they will integrate such a feature. Face it there's a lot more then people with 500$ HPs people with a 2000$ 5970 crossfire setup with a i7 930.

Also what would be the use for dynamic water in such a game? The gels work fine with Havock.

He wasn't the first to necrobump.

But still, what would be the problem with adding neat features for those who can use them?

[termospullo]

Valve should just use openGL and abandon DX, so people with win XP could also use those features...

[FourTwenny]

It is going to run on the Source engine. DX9.

[F-ing-Foley]

DX11 = DX9 on Windows 7/Vista.

Really, thats the ONLY real difference

Sure is smart in here.

[Jinoruizraged]

Source was doing things DX10 could do in 2007.

I'm sure it will utilize DX11 in some way, but not use it as its core way to run.

[Lemonosity]

i am addicted and i love it. like openGL is better, why would we want macs to have it anyway? they don't game.
i am not trolling, being serious. if you game on a mac, you are a PC trapped in a mac body.

Whaaaat?

OpenGL had all the ♥♥♥♥ "new" in DX11, but 3 years ago.

[iMart]

Portal 2 has some of the best graphics in a game ever and you want a new engine. /facepalm

[McMasterGold]

Portal 2 has some of the best graphics in a game ever and you want a new engine. /facepalm

Remember the case with Portal? Portal 2 will have worse graphics than the trailer.

[Az']

Remember the case with Portal? Portal 2 will have worse graphics than the trailer.

Gameplay presentations in this case. Portal 2 will be exactly the same or better.

[J*Rod]

Source is an evolving machine. It will never be replaced by another engine, even if hacks become as common as porn sprays. Here's why:

Source has full support for a wide spectrum of DX versions. Half-Life 2 shipped with support for DX 6 and DX 9, and Left 4 Dead 2 shipped with DX 10 support down to DX 8. Most Source games now have OpenGL support for Mac now, but they don't want to risk having choices on Windows since it's too experimental.

Source takes your hardware (graphics card, CPU, etc.) and automatically calculates the DX version and best video settings your computer can run. From then on, it's up to what minor settings like resolution you may want to change.

Did you see that super-realistic lighting in the Portal 2 demos? Those were no doubt the power of DX 11 you're seeing, and that's likely what you can expect on Windows 7. They will still give support for at least DX 9, because they did in the past and they (unlike Micro$oft) support their customers.

Just because they would put DX11 into Source doesn't mean DX9 will be trashed right next to Windows ME.

[Doomguy123]

Half-Life 2 shipped with support for DX 6 and DX 9, and Left 4 Dead 2 shipped with DX 10 support down to DX 8.

What?! L4D2 only supports DX9 even if it used Dx10 why would it not show up in the options since I have a 5770. Also it does not support DX8 I tried back when I had my 6150LE. Portal 2 will most likely be in Dx9 considering how VALVe sees that there are more people with cheap HP PCs then super gaming rigs.

PS: Hl2 only goes down to DX7 not DX6.

[McMasterGold]

You are wrong. Left 4 Dead 2 doesn't support DX8 or DX10. Only DX9.

[ddrkreature]

the option would be nice, but I wont care if it wasn't.

[surfrock22]

Please make use of my 5870. :D

[McMasterGold]

Please make use of my 5870. :D

Your HD 5870, my HD 5770 and the many people who have DX11.

[surfrock22]

Well, according to Steam's survey, not too many people have DX11 cards (Steamers, anyway).

Last time I checked, it was only somewhere around 10%.

[KooKas]

Regarding Linux, the answer is simple: WINE.

[McMasterGold]

Well, according to Steam's survey, not too many people have DX11 cards (Steamers, anyway).

Last time I checked, it was only somewhere around 10%.

5.6% has DX11, but the last check was on May 2010. Pretty old. I guess 10% will have DX11 by now.

If Valve games and new games on Steam start to use DX11, that number will be doubled.

EDIT: I calculated this by myself, as of August 2010 9.31% has DX11. By February 2011 this number should be increased a lot more as many new games by then (such as Crysis 2) will be released with DX11 support. If Valve wants to help technology move forward, they should support it.

[surfrock22]

5.6% has DX11, but the last check was on May 2010. Pretty old. I guess 10% will have DX11 by now.

If Valve games and new games on Steam start to use DX11, that number will be doubled.

EDIT: I calculated this by myself, as of August 2010 9.31% has DX11. By February 2011 this number should be increased a lot more as many new games by then (such as Crysis 2) will be released with DX11 support. If Valve wants to help technology move forward, they should support it.

That's a good point.

But, I suppose, the same could have been argued for the inclusion of DX10; Valve hasn't had to support it, because the majority (correct me if this has changed, I don't have the numbers with me since I'm at work) of their customers don't have hardware to support it. So they stick with supporting DX9 until Steam users start to upgrade their hardware.

I am not really sure what Valve gets out of pushing for hardware that people don't have.

[McMasterGold]

That's a good point.

But, I suppose, the same could have been argued for the inclusion of DX10; Valve hasn't had to support it, because the majority (correct me if this has changed, I don't have the numbers with me since I'm at work) of their customers don't have hardware to support it. So they stick with supporting DX9 until Steam users start to upgrade their hardware.

I am not really sure what Valve gets out of pushing for hardware that people don't have.

56.36% has DX10. And if users with DX10 cards who use Windows XP switch to Windows 7 that number will be increased even more.

[surfrock22]

Thanks. I don't think you can push new technology on customers, though, as you are selling games, not hardware, in this context. Valve has had zero problems selling products and making people happy, using DX9 and below. I think, as developers, they will continue to accommodate customers for what they own instead of what they don't. Meaning, since most customers now have access to DX10, Valve will probably start supporting it; when customers adopt DX11 in the future, the hardware will be supported when the time comes, rather than pressuring people to spend money that they don't need to.

What is the benefit of pressuring customers to buy new hardware, as a software developer that already makes a considerable amount of profit supporting older technology?

[ash47]

Well since OpenGL is mainly OPEN source, it can be as powerful or as non-powerful as you want it. The only reason people think OpenGL is crap is because it hasnt been used for ages, so its only on old games. If a game company was actually willing to put the time and effort into it, it would do the same things as DirectX at a much faster speed, and it would be completely compatible with Windows, Linux AND Mac.

Fun Fact: The PS3 uses OpenGL as a base, so dont you dare say it looks crap.

Ever heard of Doom 3, Doom 4, Rage? All of ID's games are made in OpenGL!!!

[jeanlain]

Why DX11? You can already achieve much better graphics than the latest Source iteration with DX 9. Doom 3 offered unprecedented graphics in its days, and it wasn't even using DX9-level features. I think it was openGL 1.3 or 1.4.
If you look at the Portal 2 gameplay trailers, you can already see that lightning effects are head and shoulders above any current Source game.

[ultradude25]

I'll support DX11 just for tessellation. At least make it optional for people who want smooth models. Also PhysX would be nice, purely visual of course so the 33% of ATi gamers don't whine.

[A Noobcake]

Wouldn't having DX11 make the game unplayable on XP? Valve is still supporting Windows XP, so there won't be DX11.

[McMasterGold]

Wouldn't having DX11 make the game unplayable on XP? Valve is still supporting Windows XP, so there won't be DX11.

If it still supports DX9, there's no problem.

I noticed many blocky models in the trailers. Tessellation would smooth them out.

[cerealkeller]

it's to the point where almost all video cards on the market support DX10. And you can get a dx11 card with decent performance for around $150. Which in most cases would be a huge upgrade. ie GTX460. I'm not supporting ATI anymore. Their drivers are garbage. Actually, on DX11 games they run very well. But anything less and they run like crap. I mean my old 4850x2 ran some games better than my newer 5970. How the heck does that make sense?

Also, get a job. Throw down some dough on Win7. XP is dead and Linux is crap. Win7 is frickin awesome. I have no trouble whatsoever with Win7 64bit. And Macs lick. Yeah, $1500 for a PC I could build for $300. I want that. You're better off buying an Ipad at this point.

[cerealkeller]

Quote:
Fun Fact: The PS3 uses OpenGL as a base, so dont you dare say it looks crap.

I have a PS3. There are like 3 games for it that look good. The rest are crap. It looks like crap and they play like crap. It does have potential. Which is very rarely tapped into. If you think most PS3 games look good you need to have your eyes examined.

[Doomguy123]

it's to the point where almost all video cards on the market support DX10. And you can get a dx11 card with decent performance for around $150. Which in most cases would be a huge upgrade. ie GTX460. I'm not supporting ATI anymore. Their drivers are garbage. Actually, on DX11 games they run very well. But anything less and they run like crap. I mean my old 4850x2 ran some games better than my newer 5970. How the heck does that make sense?

Also, get a job. Throw down some dough on Win7. XP is dead and Linux is crap. Win7 is frickin awesome. I have no trouble whatsoever with Win7 64bit. And Macs lick. Yeah, $1500 for a PC I could build for $300. I want that. You're better off buying an Ipad at this point.
Ok I'm really tired of all you guys reviving this dead thread. It will be DX9 (or possibly 10) but yet the demos look like they were done in DX11. The gels look amazing yet the game still uses Havoc and not PhysX. VALVe makes games look good and run on old machines (ok maybe not bloated TF2 but that one an exception)
listen some people dont have cash for a BRAND NEW GTX45641564! I have no clue why people say XP IZ SHAT GET WIND0S 7 it's a solid OS and it still is very stable compared to 7 (my 7 machine has some weird failures every now and then). You got to consider if they make it DX10-11 only it would not sell as much (see the Crysis 1 sales in 2007). So no it wont happen.

[The Comfy Chair]

I'd imagine episode 3 will showcase a new version of the source engine with dx11. Simply because valve are never too far behind the curve. Considering dx11/w7 are seeing adoption rates that would make m$ have wet dreams during the first 2 years of xp, dx9 is not a limitation any more.

To those saying 'no difference from dx9/dx11' need to do some reading :P The visual differences at the moment, however, won't seem much as nearly every game is still just a dx9 game.

[skinlo]

Ok I'm really tired of all you guys reviving this dead thread. It will be DX9 (or possibly 10) but yet the demos look like they were done in DX11. The gels look amazing yet the game still uses Havoc and not PhysX. VALVe makes games look good and run on old machines (ok maybe not bloated TF2 but that one an exception)
listen some people dont have cash for a BRAND NEW GTX45641564! I have no clue why people say XP IZ SHAT GET WIND0S 7 it's a solid OS and it still is very stable compared to 7 (my 7 machine has some weird failures every now and then). You got to consider if they make it DX10-11 only it would not sell as much (see the Crysis 1 sales in 2007). So no it wont happen.

THe gels I don't think are volumetric liquid physics though, they are advanced particle effects.The demos look like they were done in DX9 to me.

Crysis was a DX9 game that also had DX10 features, so I don't really know what you're talking about. Plus, the graphics market of 2007 is considerably different to 2010/11.

Finally, just because you are happy with a 8 year old operating system doesn't mean everyone else is.

[Doomguy123]

I'd imagine episode 3 will showcase a new version of the source engine with dx11. Simply because valve are never too far behind the curve. Considering dx11/w7 are seeing adoption rates that would make m$ have wet dreams during the first 2 years of xp, dx9 is not a limitation any more.

To those saying 'no difference from dx9/dx11' need to do some reading :P The visual differences at the moment, however, won't seem much as nearly every game is still just a dx9 game.

Really there is no advantage to DX11 I mean look at AvP it looks only a little better. Developers still need to figure it out. Also CONSOLES they are a freaking boulder holing us back with only DX9 support

[freekkiller7]

THe gels I don't think are volumetric liquid physics though, they are advanced particle effects.The demos look like they were done in DX9 to me.

Crysis was a DX9 game that also had DX10 features, so I don't really know what you're talking about. Plus, the graphics market of 2007 is considerably different to 2010/11.

Finally, just because you are happy with a 8 year old operating system doesn't mean everyone else is.

The gel was npc_blob. It has been said numerous times, and it also looks exactly like it. It isn't hard on the pc, doesn't use any kind of water physics, but behaves exactly like it. It does exactly the same as simple water physics, but it is much lighter on the system.

FYI npc_blob is the npc with water bubbles and stuff that was in the leaked source 2007 demo. It was only in the demo, and was never included in the new version of the engine. Just search it up on youtube, "npc_blob".

[Pinstripe]

I find it funny that people immediately upgrade their video card while there are no games out there to support it. By the time a game uses DX11 to full extend the nerds will already have bought a DX13 card and complain that there are no games out for it.

[Doomguy123]

I find it funny that people immediately upgrade their video card while there are no games out there to support it. By the time a game uses DX11 to full extend the nerds will already have bought a DX13 card and complain that there are no games out for it.

Exactly!

[hahahafr]

I'm looking for the implementation of DX11 in Source 2011 to have the tesselation. That's all. Also maybe the indirect occlusion (SSDO) to simulate real-time global illumination (example 1 (http://unigine.com/devlog/101102-ssdo1.jpg) example 2 (http://unigine.com/devlog/101102-ssdo2.jpg)).

[skinlo]

I find it funny that people immediately upgrade their video card while there are no games out there to support it. By the time a game uses DX11 to full extend the nerds will already have bought a DX13 card and complain that there are no games out for it.

For the same reason people upgrade to the latest iPhone when the last one worked perfectly fine. Partly peer pressure (more so in the case of phone), partly because they just like technology and want to be at the cutting edge. Not everyone was is happy with 8 year old technology.

[trenmost]

DX11 is a great technology, but valve will wait until it gets more common.

the process of changing to DX11 will be a lot faster than the DX10: DX10 was held back by Vista. Now that Vista and win7 both support DX11, nad there are a lot less XP users than in 2006, conversion to DX11 is a lot faster and smoother.

in 1-2 VGA card generations (Radeon HD 8000 series) DX11 will be so common, that even valve will use it (this means probably end of 2012).

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/directx/
according to this, more than 27% of steam users have DX11 cards (Radeon HD 5xxx and 6xxx series, and GeForce GTX 4xx and 5xx series are DX11), which does not mean DX11 systems, but they are more or less ready to change to DX11

and as the new generation of videocards are just arriving, this ratio will incrase.

[hahahafr]

I actually believe there will be DirectX11 options in the next game Valve releases.

[skinlo]

I actually believe there will be DirectX11 options in the next game Valve releases.

I don't think there will be in Portal 2 or DOTA 2, although I will be happy to be proved wrong.

[leahcim]

The entire Radeon 2xxx-5xxx series supports Tessellation via the OpenGL extension, and the cards themselves have supported tessellation since 2001 (http://blogs.amd.com/play/2009/09/09/directx-11-%E2%80%93-what-to-expect/)

The Unigine engine supports the OpenGL Tessellation extension, and here are the games that use that engine (14 total are in development right now) http://unigine.com/clients/


So, to go over your mistakes. Firstly the tessellation in early ati cards != that in their new directx 11 cards.

You couldn't name any existing AAA titles at all? Ah well.


And as far as your two questions
What your hardware can do doesn't matter, because the API (OpenGL or DirectX) can be used in a way that unsupported features are disabled in the game. And you can always replace your hardware.


Don't be silly. What your hardware can do is the only important thing for a real time 3d application like a game. All this nonsense over this API or that API means diddly squat. Not the least because, fixed function pipelines aren't the order of the day anymore. What your hardware can do really amounts to how much code it can run per frame - your code, note, not opengl or directx. 99% of what you see on screen these days is code written by the game developer running on either your cpu or gpu and not some magic api call at all. Do you think it matters what API they use to load their code and textures onto the hardware? Not really. Carmack had an argument once but I bet you 3 packets of hobnobs he'd give a different answer to the same questions today.

You could talk to the metal if you wanted to. But, as I said, unless you do features in software (which is typically too slow for games) you need to worry about what features said hardware has.


The software that exists that uses the hardware... is the API, which interfaces with the driver... etc.


Yes, you see. The api being discussed isn't even talking to the metal itself. So you can quite easily bypass opengl or directx and still not be talking directly to the metal. If you can't see what a fallacy the opengl v directx nonsense is after writing the above sentence, you need to think about it more. Although you neglected to consider that the software that really uses the hardware the most is the shaders, not the api or the driver at all.


Using a different API can give you access to different features. Why wouldn't you want the option to choose new and cool features?

Yes and no. If you're limited to using a specific api (by your boss or skillset or because you're writing a game for a specific platform) then you could argue that unless the feature exists in that api you can't use it. But this is a political limitation not a technical one.

Many games written these days use an existing engine. So, in some sense, they often limit themselves far more than you imagine. To the features in that engine not just some random api. But it would be dumb (cf: Duke Nukem for how dumb) to switch engines every time you decided you wanted some cool feature that the other engine had. Switching API is no different to doing that.

Similarly, it makes little sense at all technically to switch to or from opengl to get access to a hardware feature because the idea that opengl can do something directx can't or vice-versa is, mostly nonsense.

[CrazyTesla]

DX means addicted to M$.

you're using DirectX 9.0 to run source engine games, therefore you are addicted to M$

[LulWutKThnx]

portal 2 must have a new engine that will lay the foundation for ep3, HL3 and L4D3. and for it to be future proof, must have a DX11 option.
edit: but i am in no way saying it must only be DX11, have a DX9 option. (to avoid flame)

please no i can barely run portal 1! however good idea.

[slipperywhenwet]

Then, lulwut, I think it is time you upgrade :p Portal 2 will undoubtedly run much slower, if at all on your computer anyway, if you can barely run Portal.

[LulWutKThnx]

Then, lulwut, I think it is time you upgrade :p Portal 2 will undoubtedly run much slower, if at all on your computer anyway, if you can barely run Portal.

Cba just get it for .... console hope they dont do a tf2 with this though