Buff the Berserker?

[Corion]

After extensively playing all of the perks, I have come to the conclusion that the Berserker falls behind the other perks in terms of usefulness and survivability, especially in the later waves.

If you disagree, please post why.

If you agree, please post your idea(s) for balancing things out a bit.

I'd like to see each level of Berserker increase his swing radius and the number of targets he can hit, as well as decreasing the time for your attack to hit after clicking the mouse.

Currently it's only possible to hit one target at a time, and often times a target will be in your apparent attack radius only to be missed by your swings. Melee attacks are also significantly delayed from when you click the mouse - there is a delay before the animation plays and an additional delay before the damage is done after the animation.

Additionally, perhaps trading some of his Bloat bile damage-resistance for Siren and/or Crawler damage-resistance could be useful in improving survivability without making him too powerful.

[pillbox]

You're going to have a hard time finding someone who disagrees. It's like saying, "The firebug is too versatile!"

Berserk is clearly in need of some love. He's the definition of a "Glass Cannon." Sure, his damage output is fantastic, but unless you have a medic attached at the hip, or your team will sit behind you while you cover a choke point (rarely happensa), it's pretty easy to get over-taken by the horde.

The zed-time combo chains are really useful though. That needs to stay.

Perhaps if the weapons were tweaked to work like the weapon-trees of other classes? Buff chainsaw and katana - but make them more expensive? As it is, if you can afford a chainsaw, you can afford the katana - and I've never seen anyone pick chainsaw - except for the lols.

[Nitronumber9]

In part I agree with you, in others I disagree totally.
Although it is currently possible to hit one and only one target with any melee weapon, its balanced out by the pure firepower of the perk, a good berserker played right can do wonders for a team, often destracting a horde long enough for the rest of your teammates to gun them down, you also take less damage overall putting you in a very nice tank roll, you also gain the most cash overall and get up close and personal.

Sure your weak against Husks if you can't close the distance on them, Sirens are exactly the same and crawlers can be a nightmare if you don't know how to take them on, but once thats sorted, your a monster more able than any perk.

[Edit] The chainsaw actually is the best weapon against crawlers, crouch back, rev it up, laugh as a crawler jumps on it, take no damage, take a load out.

[Mister.D]

Chainsaw doesn't do anything that the Katana can't already do 10x better.

The Bezerker weapons need something unique between them.

example

Make Katana hit multiple targets in a wide arc, *slash* like the animation shows, but no stun except for the heavy swing which is a slower attack.

Make Chainsaw stun so you can't get swiped by gores and other crap while you're attacking.

Keep Katana as fast attack for rushing in the open, and for horde bashing.

Keep Chainsaw as the powerhouse chokepoint defense, but slower movement like it is.

[Mark-James]

It'd be nice if the Berserker got the same armor bonus as the Medic.

[RalphMalph]

It'd be nice if the Berserker got the same armor bonus as the Medic.

This would go a long way to making things right, IMO.

[Corion]

It'd be nice if the Berserker got the same armor bonus as the Medic.I'd like to see him get more health bonuses rather than armor bonuses.

[Lawnmooer]

I'd like to see a Health boost and/or introduction of health regen... maybe something like 5hp per 5 seconds and maybe going slightly higher at lower health?

[RalphMalph]

I'd like to see a Health boost and/or introduction of health regen... maybe something like 5hp per 5 seconds and maybe going slightly higher at lower health?

Regeneration of health is pretty much always a difficult thing to find a balance point for: it's either way overpowered or useless from my experience in other games where this has been a big feature in certain classes/characters.

[Corion]

Regeneration of health is pretty much always a difficult thing to find a balance point for: it's either way overpowered or useless from my experience in other games where this has been a big feature in certain classes/characters.They could take a lesson from TF2 (http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=1656) and make the health regen much lower when the berserker is actively taking damage and higher after he's out of combat.

Or maybe they could add a 5 or 10 second health regen when he kills an enemy. It wouldn't stack so you could still be overwhelmed by multiple enemies, but attacking crawlers, sirens, and husks (three enemies that commonly hit you as you attack them) wouldn't be as detrimental as it is now.

I know it's possible to attack these without taking damage, but even some of the best players have only a ~50/50 chance of avoiding this EVERY TIME.

[CannibalBob]

One of the berzerker's biggest advantages over the other 6 classes is that he has 'infinite' ammo with his primary (sword/chainsaw).

I think this advantage needs to be made more important. Longer waves, no ammo pickups, more zombies, reduced trader availability etc. would make the berzerker an asset to the team by making everyone else's ammo more stringent.

edit: I think health regeneration isn't a good idea since the Medic already provides this. The issue is the berzerker's advantages simply are not enough. It's just not worth taking out 2 Supports, Commandos or Sharpshooters for a berzerker and medic.

[Lawnmooer]

edit: I think health regeneration isn't a good idea since the Medic already provides this. The issue is the berzerker's advantages simply are not enough. It's just not worth taking out 2 Supports, Commandos or Sharpshooters for a berzerker and medic.

i was thinking maybe instead of doing the medics job, the berserker would allow the medic to heal other people, or play another perk (if the zerker is good).

I agree that its not worth taking out another perk for a berserker.i think a main problem is that they are supposed to be a "Tank" that gets up close and closes down a corridor (or be a ninja) and they cant stand up to FP's... Only firebugs and berserkers cannot stand up to a FP solo :(

[Nocta]

The Berserker is the Sharpshooter's best friend ( ZED time x 4 or 5 ). Killing 5 Clots gives the Sharpshooter a lot of headshots.

I don't see what could we add. A charging attack ? A knockback on Big baddies ? Sure, he's a good human shield, but he should also be able to cover his team.

I would so charge and knockback a Fleshpound out of a window on Office. Heheh.

[Lawnmooer]

The Berserker is the Sharpshooter's best friend ( ZED time x 4 or 5 ). Killing 5 Clots gives the Sharpshooter a lot of headshots.

I don't see what could we add. A charging attack ? A knockback on Big baddies ? Sure, he's a good human shield, but he should also be able to cover his team.

I would so charge and knockback a Fleshpound out of a window on Office. Heheh.

As a berserker sharpies are my worst nightmare (bullets > running)

Maybe an adrenaline shot? increases run speed and can allow knocking down/back zeds? :)

Edit: could also reduce damage taken by x% :)

[CannibalBob]

i was thinking maybe instead of doing the medics job, the berserker would allow the medic to heal other people, or play another perk (if the zerker is good).

I agree that its not worth taking out another perk for a berserker.i think a main problem is that they are supposed to be a "Tank" that gets up close and closes down a corridor (or be a ninja) and they cant stand up to FP's... Only firebugs and berserkers cannot stand up to a FP solo :(

Interesting idea, but I still think the Medic's job shouldn't be taken away or mitigated in any way. Rather, the Medic's job should become more important and there's no easier way to do this than to make playing Berzerker more appealing and important (zerkers always take damage and hence a Medic is important).

Since Zerkers just aren't that appealing to play as, then Medics become less appealing (not much to heal).

Here's an idea though; instead of nerfing everyone's ammo (so a zerker's ammo-free damage is amazing), why not buff a zed so that only a berzerker can kill it easily? Scrakes are already easily dealt with by a zerker; imagine if scrakes gained a bit of health and were immune to headshots? That would make a berzerker pretty much REQUIRED for later waves... either that, or intelligent pipebomb traps.

[Corion]

Here's an idea though; instead of nerfing everyone's ammo (so a zerker's ammo-free damage is amazing), why not buff a zed so that only a berzerker can kill it easily? Scrakes are already easily dealt with by a zerker; imagine if scrakes gained a bit of health and were immune to headshots? That would make a berzerker pretty much REQUIRED for later waves... either that, or intelligent pipebomb traps. Maybe just make the scrake's headshot location smaller and more difficult to hit, as well as increase the number of headshots required to kill one? I don't think they need to be any worse for the other classes to kill, just sharpshooter.

As far as the berserker/medic thing, perhaps the berserker should be allowed to continue healing even if he's attacked. Currently if you get hit mid-heal the heal stops completely. If the berserker didn't have to worry about this it would be a nice buff and make healing them (as a medic) not quite as frustrating.

I still think the main problem is the significant dependence on a medic and the fact that many of the enemies are difficult or impossible to kill without taking any damage. The advantages of having or being a berserker (over another class) are outweighed by these two things.

That's not even taking into account the fact that you have to be right next to enemies to attack them and that you can only hit one at a time.

EDIT: I wonder if Throwing Knives would be a worthwhile addition to the berserker's inventory. Perhaps having a single ranged weapon would make him a little more versatile and valuable?

What if the berserker's melee attacks dazed/maimed enemies like Scrakes and Fleshpounds so they couldn't run nearly as fast?

[Mister.D]

Why would I want throwing knives when I can already use the Xbow with Katana combo..

Best thing would be to make the Chainsaw a valued weapon, and make the choice of using it with the Katana a worthwhile decision.

It should not be about making the only Melee class into something he's not.

[xdiamantx]

The less hp berserker has, the more damage they do? It's a classic skill that most berserker classes have.

[turtlesoup]

berserker needs absolutely no buff imo, he's basically the most powerful class in the game. I got no problem surviving or making kills on suicidal, and no you don't need a full time medic. I was going to make this huge long winded post on how you're doing it wrong and should l2p, but there's plenty of guides and "lets buff zerk since I don't know how to use him" threads floating around that you could find on your own.

tw just nerfed the chainsaw and auto slash last patch in hopes to contain him, but that only works on scrubs. so you have less than zero chance they would even consider rebuffing, all the op crying used to be about berserker. then hitboxes were fixed and people realised that sharpshooter was good, and killwhоres got their semi auto rifle, so now there are new things to blame.

[Baloban]

berserker needs absolutely no buff imo, he's basically the most powerful class in the game. I got no problem surviving or making kills on suicidal, and no you don't need a full time medic. I was going to make this huge long winded post on how you're doing it wrong and should l2p, but there's plenty of guides and "lets buff zerk since I don't know how to use him" threads floating around that you could find on your own.

tw just nerfed the chainsaw and auto slash last patch in hopes to contain him, but that only works on scrubs. so you have less than zero chance they would even consider rebuffing, all the op crying used to be about berserker. then hitboxes were fixed and people realised that sharpshooter was good, and killwhоres got their semi auto rifle, so now there are new things to blame.

Contain him?

I think they nerfed the chainsaw and then added the Husk to complicate camping?

Even before the nerfing of the chainsaw i never saw too many berserkers doing well on suicidial. The same problem remains: the berserker gets hurt too easily. Medic is better as a berserker due to improved armour, healingcapability and speed.

Berserker is still best used for stationary purposes and here is where the prenerfed chainsaw worked wonders for a team with a medic behind. The chainsaw today does not impress simply because it leaves alive zeds after striking, which is hazardous.

[Zaqq]

Buff the firebug. Firebug are extinct on battlefields of KF

[Winter Rain]

It'd be nice if the Berserker got the same armor bonus as the Medic.
Agreed. I would think this would be relatively easy to implement and would help some of the issues the perk has enormously.
Buff the firebug. Firebug are extinct on battlefields of KF
The Firebug is in need of attention as well. It might be nice to add a weapon or two for the perk, something that could broaden their focus just a bit.

[pillbox]

I was going to make this huge long winded post on how you're doing it wrong and should l2p...

I would like a well-written post that explains how to play the Zerk properly.

As a legitimate level 6 zerk, I would like details of how I am "doing it wrong."

I am telling you I've never seen a successful 'zerk on suicidal. It's just not viable. You have to expose yourself to attacks from multiple directions to even get kills, unless you're camping a choke-point.

You are no where near as useful as classes that can attack from a distance. I'm calling you out, my friend!

[Corion]

You are no where near as useful as classes that can attack from a distance. I'm calling you out, my friend!Yeah, the issue isn't so much whether or not the Berserker is or can be a viable class in any situation (or a specific one), but the fact that in any situation another class is going to be superior.

Some classes are clearly superior in one regard or another, or at least on equal footing in nearly every aspect, but the Berserker doesn't do anything that the other classes can't already do better (in addition to being more useful all-around).

I don't think the zeds or the Berserker should be changed in such a way that Berserkers feel mandatory on a team, but I do think they should be buffed to the point that having a Berserker on any given wave is as useful or more useful than other classes in more situations.

[turtlesoup]

I would like a well-written post that explains how to play the Zerk properly.


no need, I'm sure this has been linked here before:
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=34151

and I'll say this, berserker is the only class that can feasibly rambo on 6p suicidal with a katana/xbow loadout and survive, which is why chainsaw/auto slash got nerfed. people think sharpies can do this, but that only works on hard and below. assuming your team is dead/useless and you are facing 500 zombies, sharpie will run out of ammo or die to a fleshpound with an m14.

[pillbox]

That was well written and I've seen it before. However, I'm sorry, but I found nothing in that thread that I didn't already learn through casual play. My point still stands - this is not simply a "L2P" issue.

You cannot solo multiple scrakes\fp's\trash - even with an X-Bow\Katana load-out - unless you're doing nothing but hitting "S" the entire match.

I find this boring. Anyone can run in a circle and engage targets one at a time. It is not necessarily "doing it right" and you can make the argument that any class can achieve the same results with their Primary + X-Bow. (Assuming you're not trying to solo 500+, then obviously the Katana is most useful.)

The very fact that you're telling me to rely on an X-Bow to balance out a melee-based class deserves further consideration. That I have to rely on ranged weapons from other classes to make the melee class even playable on suicidal tells me something needs a tweek - even if it's small.

Please, make a stronger case or reconsider the "L2P" statement.

[Corion]

no need, I'm sure this has been linked here before:
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=34151

and I'll say this, berserker is the only class that can feasibly rambo on 6p suicidal with a katana/xbow loadout and surviveObviously there are problems with this loadout if, in a somewhat team-oriented game on the hardest difficulty you can "rambo" successfully. And what maps does this strategy work on? Farm? I can't imagine it working out well in more cramped maps like BioticsLab.

people think sharpies can do this, but that only works on hard and below. assuming your team is dead/useless and you are facing 500 zombies, sharpie will run out of ammo or die to a fleshpound with an m14.This shouldn't be the only situation where having a Berserker is more useful than another class. It seems ridiculous to assume that, since the Berserker could possibly survive in this scenario when the others could not, this somehow offsets the perk's shortcomings in normal play. You shouldn't have to wait for everybody else on the team to die before you are uniquely valuable.

And isn't it highly probable that, had you been another class, you could have been more useful and possibly prevented your team's demise in the first place?

The very fact that you're telling me to rely on an X-Bow to balance out a melee-based class deserves further consideration. That I have to rely on ranged weapons from other classes to make the melee class even playable on suicidal tells me something needs a tweek - even if it's small. Exactly. Using the Xbow to offset the shortcomings of the Berserker does not mean the Berserker needs no extra help. If anything, it speaks volumes about the OP-ness of the Xbow. It's probably the most-used weapon by classes other than the class it's primarily meant for.... But that discussion is for another thread.



turtlesoup, it seems that you think the Berserker is overpowered in his ability to rambo. What steps would you take to balance things out so that he is less of a "rambo"-style class? I.e. what would you change that makes him less overpowered in this claimed ability to solo 500 specimen on suicidal yet somehow makes him more useful in more typical scenarios?

[turtlesoup]

That was well written and I've seen it before. However, I'm sorry, but I found nothing in that thread that I didn't already learn through casual play. My point still stands - this is not simply a "L2P" issue.

You cannot solo multiple scrakes\fp's\trash - even with an X-Bow\Katana load-out - unless you're doing nothing but hitting "S" the entire match.

I find this boring. Anyone can run in a circle and engage targets one at a time. It is not necessarily "doing it right" and you can make the argument that any class can achieve the same results with their Primary + X-Bow. (Assuming you're not trying to solo 500+, then obviously the Katana is most useful.)

The very fact that you're telling me to rely on an X-Bow to balance out a melee-based class deserves further consideration. That I have to rely on ranged weapons from other classes to make the melee class even playable on suicidal tells me something needs a tweek - even if it's small.

Please, make a stronger case or reconsider the "L2P" statement.

your degree of amusement has absolutely nothing to do with how effective the strategy is. I used xbow as an example to make him playable solo, which would mean that he is doing someone else's job, which would also mean that perhaps you have confused yourself. nothing about that says he is not capable of doing his part among a team.

Obviously there are problems with this loadout if, in a somewhat team-oriented game on the hardest difficulty you can "rambo" successfully. And what maps does this strategy work on? Farm? I can't imagine it working out well in more cramped maps like BioticsLab.

exactly why I use the word "feasible". farm would be more likely, biolabs obviously less likely, but both possible for berserker simply because of the fact that he needs way less ammo, and is capable of effectively handling any zed with that loadout.

This shouldn't be the only situation where having a Berserker is more useful than another class. It seems ridiculous to assume that, since the Berserker could possibly survive in this scenario when the others could not, this somehow offsets the perk's shortcomings in normal play. You shouldn't have to wait for everybody else on the team to die before you are uniquely valuable.

see above reply to pillbox, you guys are way overthinking this.

And isn't it highly probable that, had you been another class, you could have been more useful and possibly prevented your team's demise in the first place?

possibly? yes. definitely? no.

my position to your original post being that if you and your team know how to use him, then he can be just as effective as anyone else in his role. which imo is to:

a. drastically reduce ammo consumption
b. drastically reduce zed count (clots/gores)
c. protect sharpshooter/medic
d. area denial

sure commando/support/demo could do b/c/d, but obviously the point is they're limited in ammo. if you really want to make it about who's better or worse, we can also say that with a relatively minimal amount of support, he does what costs them hundreds in cash every round, for free. and we can leave stockpiling out of this since it's not possible in every situation.

Exactly. Using the Xbow to offset the shortcomings of the Berserker does not mean the Berserker needs no extra help. If anything, it speaks volumes about the OP-ness of the Xbow. It's probably the most-used weapon by classes other than the class it's primarily meant for.... But that discussion is for another thread.

see above reply to pillbox, again going off on the poor innocent xbow. nothing about this makes it overpowered, in his hands it's not nearly as effective as a sharpshooter. extra long reload, 1/3rd the damage, 2 shots to kill a fleshpound, this makes the difference between life and death should you get caught in the wrong situation.

it seems that you think the Berserker is overpowered in his ability to rambo. What steps would you take to balance things out so that he is less of a "rambo"-style class? I.e. what would you change that makes him less overpowered in this claimed ability to solo 500 specimen on suicidal yet somehow makes him more useful in more typical scenarios?

that's not what I'm saying at all, and I really couldn't care if berserkers can solo a late game wave. people seemed to think this was a problem before sharpie got so popular, but imo this is hard enough so that it's rarely doable. my point is simple, I disagree that his drawbacks outweigh the benefits.

[demogorgon]

what about a riot shield?

just like CS

[Zaqq]

just like MW2 or L4D2 (cutted off weap)?

[pillbox]

your degree of amusement has absolutely nothing to do with how effective the strategy is. I used xbow as an example to make him playable solo, which would mean that he is doing someone else's job, which would also mean that perhaps you have confused yourself. nothing about that says he is not capable of doing his part among a team.

Thank you, this is what I was looking for - an argument laid out with actual content.

And I have to agree - my amusement has absolutely nothing to do with how effective a strategy can be. "S+M1" is certainly the strongest tactic available (for any class) when you either ignore your team, or have just escaped certain death if your team was just overwhelmed.

But, that said, I am saying he is not capable of doing his part.

If we are playing suicidal, everyone is equal in perk-level (5/6), and we are successfully holding a position, then I am suggesting that the Zerk actually has less to do.

The commandos, sharps, supports will take care of everything. The zerk literally has to step well away from the team to be of use. Now, granted, you can hold a choke point and take care of anything that might slip by, but unless your team is healing you - you're in serious trouble! Because you will take hits.

Now, this might be where you would chime in, "pillbox - you need to L2P! When I do it, I do it right, and don't take hits at all - and still get lots and lots of kills!"

Well, then I am going to need more than your word. I'm going to need a video or some kind of proof. Because I believe if that's even possible, it must require you to juke all over the place - including in the fire-zone of your team mates.

I'm just not convinced, based on my experiences, that Zerk is fine as-is. The fact that I never, ever see one in a suicidal match (unless we're all going zerk to take down the Pat.)tells me a great deal.

[turtlesoup]

...

The commandos, sharps, supports will take care of everything. The zerk literally has to step well away from the team to be of use. Now, granted, you can hold a choke point and take care of anything that might slip by, but unless your team is healing you - you're in serious trouble! Because you will take hits.

...

like I said it takes teamwork, which you may not get in pubs and lower difficulties where players fully intend to killwhоre all game, even at the cost of a wipe. this is the main cause of wipes, when players fail at delegating firepower among themselves and get overwhelmed. berserker is more capable than anyone else to prevent this from happening, because he can more efficiently kill the bulk of a wave, if you plan for this and choose your targets wisely.

this is the reason we have 8 different zombies instead of 1, to play on the strengths of each class. if you're all just killing the first thing you see then of course guns will do better than knives, until there are more enemies than you can shoot, or you run out of bullets. you have to think of it strategically if you want to understand what I'm saying, instead of who can rack up the most kills.

if you're focused purely on getting a good score, then obviously ranged weapons are going to outperform the melee when team sticks together but makes absolutely no compromises to exploit the melee advantage. you claim to be taking teamwork into consideration, but I don't think you're actually looking at it this way besides imagining all players fighting in the same place. we're dealing with bots here, that have priorites and line of sight that can be manipulated. if you understand how the ai attack priority works, there's always a way to position the team so that the bersker(s) are their main focus of aggro. this doesn't mean that others have to stay out of sight, or obscure their vision, you just have to use the terrain to your advantage. it even works in ff, as long as there's no directly opposing crossfire.

we always see berserkers running ahead or to the side exactly because people don't understand this, so they can get attack priority and retreat when they have to. obviously it doesn't have to be that way, if players are smart enough to divide enemies up efficiently. this works in any situation, all you have to think about is where they are coming from and what not to kill on sight. this is also why familiar teams always do so much better than random players, because people who know each other are more likely to play strategically.



tl;dr

"S + M1" has nothing to do with ignoring your team or overreaching yourself, unless you're doing it as a ranged player who could have been fighting from a better position.

[pillbox]

...
if you're focused purely on getting a good score, then obviously ranged weapons are going to outperform the melee when team sticks together but makes absolutely no compromises to exploit the melee advantage. you claim to be taking teamwork into consideration, but I don't think you're actually looking at it this way besides imagining all players fighting in the same place. we're dealing with bots here, that have priorites and line of sight that can be manipulated. if you understand how the ai attack priority works, there's always a way to position the team so that the bersker(s) are their main focus of aggro. this doesn't mean that others have to stay out of sight, or obscure their vision, you just have to use the terrain to your advantage. it even works in ff, as long as there's no directly opposing crossfire.
...

So, perhaps that's my problem right there. In the typical environment in which this game is played (a pub)individuals are frequently gunning down zeds as soon as they appear.

There is, frequently, very little fire control. Precisely because there's no reason or incentive for anyone to exploit the melee advantage.

I like to think I understand the target priority. Zerks are ideal for holding back the masses of clots, gfasts, even crawlers if you're good enough. If you're using the environment to the fullest, as you suggest - here I'm thinking a single-entry point - you can even engage Scrakes one at a time.

So, you'll still have to rely on your team to pick out bloats, sirens (which you can solo, perhaps, but not more than 2 at a time) and of course you have to work together to take down the FP's

So, yes, I have played this way - this is the ideal format for a 'zerk in teamplay. As the tank, the aggro guy.

All that said, I'm still making the case that the medic preforms this function even better. And, in suicidal game where you have 2+ commandos, or 2+ sharps - they can successfully kill everything before it reaches your aggro spot, for the most part.

And, I gather that it's not a matter of score at this point - truly, I don't care about my personal kill counter. But based on my time as a zerk, I can't help but feel that something can be done to make it more appealing or useful.

This may be an area that we are destined to not find a middle-ground or area of agreement. What you are describing is perhaps a rare, ideal set of circumstances for seasoned players. For others, I think the conditions are different.

[turtlesoup]

I'm still making the case that the medic preforms this function even better.

you're going to have the guy least capable of fighting back, to soak up damage for no reason, instead of healing and killing the trash. so no you haven't played it this way, there's no "tanking" involved here.

I think there's plenty of incentive for fire control, like winning, and living long enough for your score to matter. simply saying that "people aren't smart enough to do this" doesn't really make much of a case.

it's obvious imo, and the only thing holding us back is the scoreboard, and leveling. if you were to take that away, I guarantee that the failures who kept playing would figure this out and change their strategies immediately, and realise how easy it is. then blame their boredom on berserkers/sharpshooters, and the lack of a score.

a challenging win is just more fun than an easy one.