Please Don't Use VPK

[Lemonosity]

We of the sourcemodding Community want to be able to create actual Sourcemods. And that's currently not possible with said VPK system. So please, Valve, use your old system so we can create fully-fledged Portal mods.


Please.

[Shadow TIm]

implying that you can't use vpk for mods and it's just left 4 dead itself that made mods unpossible.

[Apply]

You can unpack .vpk just the same as you can the old .gcf. Update your version gcf scape - http://nemesis.thewavelength.net/index.php?p=26

[KaneXLS]

criticizing everything long before its released..

never change steam community

[Lemonosity]

I know about GCFScape, Apply. It's the fact that using a VPK system makes it impossible to make stand-alone Source mods (that still require Portal 2, of course). And Tim, who said that Valve would ONLY use the VPK system for Left 4 Dead 1/2? They found a new system that they like, why wouldn't they use it.

If Valve keeps VPK files, they can basically just say "♥♥♥♥ you" to all modders.

[RustySpannerz]

What the ♥♥♥♥? The VPK system is incredibly usedul to mappers who want to make a single map. I wish it was included in Gmod. It would make custom content a lot easier. Surely it's helping modders who only want to make one map.

And I'm sure Valve (the inventors of both VPK and Source SDK) will be able to figure out a workaround if you are correct. They're not going to abandon their modding community any time soon.

[Lemonosity]

What the ♥♥♥♥? The VPK system is incredibly usedul to mappers who want to make a single map. I wish it was included in Gmod. It would make custom content a lot easier. Surely it's helping modders who only want to make one map.

And I'm sure Valve (the inventors of both VPK and Source SDK) will be able to figure out a workaround if you are correct. They're not going to abandon their modding community any time soon.

I'm not talking about maps. I agree, maps are easier, but I'm talking about MODS, that go in the Sourcemods folder. And they sure as hell abandoned the L4D modding community. People who planned on making mods were rendered to just making maps.

And I'm pretty sure VPK wasn't made by Valve, as it was first used in Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, which was made by Troika.

[Hunterbrute]

VPK is a bunch of garbage wrapped up in a pretty package, no one cares if its slightly faster by .0001 seconds.

[Lemonosity]

VPK is a bunch of garbage wrapped up in a pretty package, no one cares if its slightly faster by .0001 seconds.

Exactly.

[Epsilon]

I don't even know why you'd want to make a mod for L4D1/2, they haven't released the source code for the game bit of it, so you can't change the way the game plays or anything like that. There's not a massive amount of point.

The most you can do is change sounds and models and things, and there's nothing stopping you doing that right now.

You can just make a mod for the version of the Source engine that TF2 uses if you want to do a proper mod with your own gameplay.

That's the underlying reason they haven't fixed you a solution yet, because it's pointless.

[Hunterbrute]

I don't even know why you'd want to make a mod for L4D1/2, they haven't released the source code for the game bit of it, so you can't change the way the game plays or anything like that. There's not a massive amount of point.

The most you can do is change sounds and models and things, and there's nothing stopping you doing that right now.

You can just make a mod for the version of the Source engine that TF2 uses if you want to do a proper mod with your own gameplay.

That's the underlying reason they haven't fixed you a solution yet, because it's pointless.

Its more about DRAG AND DROP than it is about sounds, textures, and models supported in a single file. With the GCF system you can create a Sourcemod off of the original game and have it completely separate with separate materials, models, scripts, and sounds. With the VPK system you cant have sourcemods so everything has to be added to the original game.

GCF > VPK

[Lemonosity]

I don't even know why you'd want to make a mod for L4D1/2, they haven't released the source code for the game bit of it, so you can't change the way the game plays or anything like that. There's not a massive amount of point.

The most you can do is change sounds and models and things, and there's nothing stopping you doing that right now.

You can just make a mod for the version of the Source engine that TF2 uses if you want to do a proper mod with your own gameplay.

That's the underlying reason they haven't fixed you a solution yet, because it's pointless.

That's the point! People WANT to make mods, but cannot because Valve won't let them; because they're using a crappy addon system instead of a modding system.

[Vonje]

If done right, modding will be just like Half-Life 1. Where mod folders go inside the exe dir and not sourcemods.

[Lawliet89]

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't L4D come with Source Base as well? So you can make the same HL2 mods with the same base?

[Vonje]

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't L4D come with Source Base as well? So you can make the same HL2 mods with the same base?

You mean the content that every other game has? Nope, they're stored in GCFs which L4D doesn't support.

[Lawliet89]

So the issue is you cannot mod the assets of L4Ds because they are not stored in GCFs?

(sorry for the noob questions)

[Vonje]

So the issue is you cannot mod the assets of L4Ds because they are not stored in GCFs?

(sorry for the noob questions)

Totally unrelated. GCFs are only used by Steam as some kind of pack.

[psihomir2]

Can somebody PLEASE post a technical explanation of what the VPK format precludes you from doing exactly, since so far in this thread I've only seen vague explanations mixed with random rants but nothing straight to the point.

From what I've managed to understand, the only problem is that you can't make a mod that's launched from Steam directly, is that it?

[BarracudaATA]

The current official archiver vpk.exe is also a big mess, it creates vpk files in-memory (wtf?) and crashes when trying to pack files with a total size above a gigabyte or something. It also dislikes some file extensions for some reason.
And what are the multi-chunk files of big vpk archives for? It doesn't make any sense to split big files on NTFS file systems at all...

However, I like the idea of the add-on system. It's much easier to handle a few files in one folder than hundreds in many sub-folders. But the main game assets should remain in the steamapps folder so other games can use them as well.

[Lemonosity]

The VPK system makes it so that you can only install addons. Not mods. You can't make a total conversion with VPK system, which there were plenty of people wanting to create total conversion mods for Left 4 Dead, and couldn't because the VPK system made creating custom NPC's and new weapons completely impossible.

While with a GCF, Source-mods can be installed into the "Sourcemods" folder and basically "reference" to the game that it modifies, via gameinfo. It's a fraction of a second longer to load, but a more efficient system, and supports the modding community.

A SOLUTION?
Earlier, I thought of a way that Valve could use both the VPK system and allow actual MODS. Instead of using the GCF, you could use a VPK system that works as if it's a mod itself. It uses all the gameinfo and such, models and materials and maps all have their own VPK.

And to create a mod, you take all the mod content and package THEM into VPK files and then put them in a mod directory. After that, a gameinfo is created for the mod. It uses the MAIN APPLICATION (portal2.exe?) and then instead of using Portal 2's normal VPK files, it uses the new VPK files located in the mod. Similar to skins and such. Anything NOT in the VPK files in the mod file will be used from the main game's VPK files.

This combines the GCF concept, the VPK system, and still allows modding. And less negativity (and threads like this) towards Valve.

[psihomir2]

Even if Portal/L4D used GCF, you still wouldn't be able to make a total conversion mod because the source code for those games has never been released. The closest you could do is write your own mod where you try to replicate the "feeling" of the mod you want to base it on, but I can't really see anyone enthusiastic enough to try to code a complete replica of Portal's portal system and all that.

[RustySpannerz]

But what I still don't understand is that L4D is a multiplayer game, you can't make a mod for a multiplayer game, there's no point. They've never really made modding available to multiplayer games, have you ever played a CS:S mod? Or a TF2 mod? No. What I was meaning is that since Valve created both systems, then why can't the make some sort of workaround.

The VPK system is wonderful for mappers who want to just make a single map, it reduces the need for programs like Pakrat, and makes packaging custom content a lot quicker and easier which helps add diversity to singleplayer maps.

The modding system is great for a full mod. It's been used in every other single-player game belonging to Valve since at least 2004. Valve treasures their modding community and aren't going to drop them anytime soon. So with the VPK system they tried to make something as close to modding, but available for a single map, or campaign because you can have multiple BSPs in one VPK, so, really without the VPK system, how on earth would you have been able to make campaigns? Without making the players download 4 or 5 individual BSPs.

The VPK system suited L4D, Valve will use whatever system suits Portal, a singleplayer game, best. Be it modding, VPK and Mods, or even a totally new system that allows both mods and custom content packaged into one file.

[Fluffles]

The VPK system only sucks because it doesn't have a server download system available with it!

you can't make a mod for a multiplayer game, there's no point. They've never really made modding available to multiplayer games, have you ever played a CS:S mod? Or a TF2 mod? No.
Yes, yes.
There are tons of ingame mods for CSS and Tf2.

[psihomir2]

RustySpannerz's post is pretty much what I wanted to say, but was too lazy to type it up :p Really, the only thing the VPK system doesn't allow you to do, isn't doable in Portal/L4D to begin with, so the point about hindering modders is moot.

Furthermore, VPK actually makes the other aspects of modding - packing custom content together - easier and more streamlined.

The only single problem I can still see arising is if you would want to use Portal 2's content in your own full-fledged mod for Half-Life 2 without having to pack it in - as I understand it, this won't be possible. But then again, this was possible with Portal 1 yet how many mods are there that utilize it? I can't think of even one :)

[RustySpannerz]

Yes, yes.
There are tons of ingame mods for CSS and Tf2.

There are mods for TF2? All I can find is texture packs and reskins all packaged into one. But I was using ModDB, is there a better place to find TF2 mods?

http://www.moddb.com/games/team-fortress-2/mods

EDIT: And I quote I found on one of the mods:
All you people realise that TF2 has no proper SDK and only a map editor, right?

[psihomir2]

There are lots of SourceMod-based mods for TF2, this is true. I've played several new gamemodes and such. Dodgeball, PropHunt, the custom Civilian gamemode, etc. Modding a multiplayer game always has potential, and there's certainly a lot that can be changed in TF2 if it were possible - but so far, SourceMod is more or less the only thing modders can use to modify the gameplay.

[Fluffles]

There are mods for TF2? All I can find is texture packs and reskins all packaged into one. But I was using ModDB, is there a better place to find TF2 mods?

http://www.moddb.com/games/team-fortress-2/mods

EDIT: And I quote I found on one of the mods:

I clearly said ingame mods right there sir!

On a different note, VPK doesn't effect mod making in any way, it only effects the way maps are handled, and without a download system from the server it just ruins the game and makes it hard to play on custom map servers.

VPK is fine, we just need a full mod making SDK like RustySpannerz here says

[RustySpannerz]

I clearly said ingame mods right there sir!

My mistake.

So yeah, in conclusion: Valve is awesome.

[zarrten]

I think the reason they used VPKs is because L4D was a different type of game. But it all really depends on what engine P2 uses.

[Lemonosity]

Even if Portal/L4D used GCF, you still wouldn't be able to make a total conversion mod because the source code for those games has never been released. The closest you could do is write your own mod where you try to replicate the "feeling" of the mod you want to base it on, but I can't really see anyone enthusiastic enough to try to code a complete replica of Portal's portal system and all that.

But Portal mods DO exist.

Portal Prelude
Aperture Deja Vu
Project Beta
And I'm a developer for Blue Portals.

[psihomir2]

But Portal mods DO exist.

Portal Prelude
Aperture Deja Vu
Project Beta
And I'm a developer for Blue Portals.

Do any of those mods feature gameplay changes, or are they just content mods - new maps/textures/models/etc assets?

[Lemonosity]

Do any of those mods feature gameplay changes, or are they just content mods - new maps/textures/models/etc assets?

That's not the point. Someone said that you can't have Portal mods that are actually SOURCE MODS. That's proof because you put them in Sourcemods and they work as Sourcemods.

[Marcem7121]

Why would you want to make a portal 2 mod? Make bonus maps.

[Bonsay]

Why would you want to make a portal 2 mod? Make bonus maps.
I could think of a Portal multiplayer where you get to "fight" etc. If you're creative, you can have tons of ideas for Portal 2 mods. So it's not just about maps.

[Marcem7121]

I'm thinking that could be a map too. Just not much of a fun one.

[K4z3yu]

VPK is a bunch of garbage wrapped up in a pretty package, no one cares if its slightly faster by .0001 seconds.

Doesn't VPK stand for Valve PAK file or something?
Also Masquerade Vampire Bloodlines used the Source engine.
I'm guessing Valve made it long time ago, but didn't bother to implement it in their games until L4D.

[Lemonosity]

See this thread for further conversations about this. (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1180604)

[LATTEH]

I love the VPK it makes it so much easier to add maps... but if hes talking about using the portal engine so we can make mods like Zombie panic source and stuff then yes i agree but i like the VPK it makes it way easier for me to make my maps and put them in one file

[Hiroshima]

Use the old system please. Skins and models are a pain in the gay with L4D.

[Smashman]

Also, using the VPK system, it's alot harder to add custom models and such. With TF2 all you do is name it correctly, and whack it in the right folder. With L4D and L4D2 you have to edit the VPKs and hope you don't break the game. Valve's entire premise is modular gaming. The VPKs let this down.

[Hunterbrute]

To put it simply

GCF has better drag and drop support while VPK has to be edited to much and if you want custom skins to work in all game modes of L4D you have to use a hex editor on the pak01. With a GCF game you just drop the skin/model in place and if a server has sv_pure off or an edited whitelist you can use them ingame.

[Hiroshima]

GCF if they know what is good for them.

[psihomir2]

That's not the point. Someone said that you can't have Portal mods that are actually SOURCE MODS. That's proof because you put them in Sourcemods and they work as Sourcemods.

Then explain to me. What IS the point, because so far I still fail to see it.

So the only, single, difference is how players are going to launch your mod then? The difference between VPK and GCF is whether the player will click your mod's icon in Steam, or they'll have to pick it from an in-game "custom chapters" or something menu?

So how does that hinder modders? If somebody has your mod installed, they'll play it. Doesn't really matter how they'll have to launch it. In terms of creativity possibilities, both systems give you exactly the same limits in what you can do with the game's gameplay.

I'm reinforcing this point because of something you said earlier

because the VPK system made creating custom NPC's and new weapons completely impossible

You're making it sound like it was the VPK system's fault that people weren't able to make code changes to L4D, when in fact, it had nothing to do with it.

[Lemonosity]

like it was the VPK system's fault that people weren't able to make code changes to L4D, when in fact, it had nothing to do with it.

That's the thing! You're talking about CHANGES and addons, I'm talking about ADDITIONS and Source mods.

[psihomir2]

... and like I said, even though Portal 1 uses GCFs, how many mods are there for it that modify its gameplay - be it even through adding code via SourceMod? Zero, I think. And I'm sure it's not due to lack of interest.

Btw, Server-based SourceMods are still possible in L4D, no?

[Hiroshima]

... and like I said, even though Portal 1 uses GCFs, how many mods are there for it that modify its gameplay - be it even through adding code via SourceMod? Zero, I think. And I'm sure it's not due to lack of interest.

Btw, Server-based SourceMods are still possible in L4D, no?
http://www.moddb.com/mods?filter=t&=Search&kw=Search+...&released=def&style=def&theme=def&game=9995&type=def

[psihomir2]

http://www.moddb.com/mods?filter=t&=Search&kw=Search+...&released=def&style=def&theme=def&game=9995&type=def

Apart from AAA, I don't see any that fit the description. And I'm not sure what it's using, it looks more like a HL2 mod with the portal gun modded in to me... I'll look into it.

Edit: yep:

we plan to release partial code somewhere between november-janurary. it will be a downgraded version of what we have developed at the time (as the full code is too important to the mod to give away)

They themselves coded the portal gun into a HL2-based mod and took it from there. This is not modding Portal. It's replicating the original, and noone will be stopping you from doing that with Portal 2. (well unless you want to use the new engine of course, but Valve may come up with a solution for that by then :p)

[SiPlus.c]

Stop hating VPK. NCF disallows community to make mods. VPK useful to make addons, but doesn't disallows to make full mods.

[kraid08]

Left 4 Dead was never intended to have full game mods, the source code isn't even out, so the VPK system was very useful for campaign/map-packages.

Now, the question is: Does that apply to Portal 2 too?
We don't know, but if so, then the VPK-System would be most useful.

[redban]

VPK made me stop playing L4D2 :/

[kraid08]

VPK made me stop playing L4D2 :/

obvious troll is obvious

[LATTEH]

The VPK i think is a good thing for adding maps but what i really want is to be able to use the new engine to make new mods!

[RustySpannerz]

Left 4 Dead was never intended to have full game mods, the source code isn't even out, so the VPK system was very useful for campaign/map-packages.

Now, the question is: Does that apply to Portal 2 too?
We don't know, but if so, then the VPK-System would be most useful.

Exactly, VPK was useful for a game that couldn't possibly have supported full on mods, like Zombie Panic or Synergy because it's a multiplayer game. Half Life 2 was a singleplayer game, as was Portal which made modding possible.

Portal 2 is also a singleplayer so it will include modding in the traditional sense, much like Portal. And I hope, it will also support VPKs, so that you can either.

- Make a single map with custom content using the VPK.
Or
- Make a full on mod with multiple levels, New weapons and more.

[GanGSISoft]

1)vpk create very many duplicate files
Example L4D1 and L4D2. L4D2 don't use files from L4D1 as HL2 Episode 2 use files from Episode one and HL2.
2)I am can't use models, materials, from L4D in my mod for HL2
3)Valve can't update engine L4D1, as engine CSS
4)Garrys mod not work on L4D2.

5)I am use russian localization and have some problems with this, I am haven't problems with gcf.

In my opinion ncf/vpk not suitable for valve games.

Sorry for my english.

[michael89]

VPK is a bunch of garbage wrapped up in a pretty package, no one cares if its slightly faster by .0001 seconds.

+ it wont fragment easily as GCF.

[slipperywhenwet]

I know about GCFScape, Apply. It's the fact that using a VPK system makes it impossible to make stand-alone Source mods (that still require Portal 2, of course). And Tim, who said that Valve would ONLY use the VPK system for Left 4 Dead 1/2? They found a new system that they like, why wouldn't they use it.

If Valve keeps VPK files, they can basically just say "♥♥♥♥ you" to all modders.

Um... L4D uses five map campaigns, not 100 different maps. The VPK just packs all the stuff into an easy to use format for people downloading it. It's not the VPK so much as it is the SDK that came with it that didn't let you make full-fledged mods.

[Kidbanhammer]

criticizing everything long before its released..

never change steam community

Pretty sure L4D and L4D2 have been released.

never change, ignorant folk.

[kommandojoe]

It works perfectly fine for modding, you speak like a master of a subject you know nothing about.

[slipperywhenwet]

It works perfectly fine for modding, you speak like a master of a subject you know nothing about.

Modding =/= mapping

Modding replaces and/or adds elements to the games, and usually uses a separate launch file entirely. Mapping is making maps for a game. Making maps is just fine in L4D and L4D2, but you can't make mods.

[Motanum]

I hate vkp. I like messing up with files. It feels more leets

[nrnoble]

WOW... what an old thread brought back from grave.

[Groxkiller585]

Pretty sure L4D and L4D2 have been released.

never change, ignorant folk.

He was talking about Portal 2. Did you even read the OP?

Never change, troll.

[Right 4 Alive]

Can't you mod Alien Swarm, doesn't that use the VPK system?

[Groxkiller585]

Can't you mod Alien Swarm, doesn't that use the VPK system?

Yes but we can only mod in MAPS, not CODE.

[neurotiq]

Just make the SDK available so we can have Portal 2 prophunt and etc.

That will make the community happy, plain and simple.