Map Defence-b2 Blacklisted?

[sebaz19]

Hi all,

I have a problem in the Defence-b2 map, i cant level my perk anymore and a lot of people have the same problem.

Anyone knows what is the problem? Is the Map blacklistet from Valve?

[pillbox]

After much debate, it appears that the community was able to convince someone to de-whitelist the map.

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=41409&page=8

So, no more level grinding on that map. Plenty of others to choose from though.

[Smertnik]

Good, it started getting tiresome seeing this map everywhere, especially on suicidal.

[Corion]

Drat. So close to level 6 Demolitions. Defence_b2 was easy, but hey, at least it was fun. I guess I can level perks on less-fun maps and play defence_b2 if I ever want to mindlessly gib things.

Probably a good idea to blacklist it, though. You could level Demolitions almost 10 times faster on that map than any other perk on any other map...

[pillbox]

Try KF-Prison until that gets blacklisted. You'll level at the same rate.

If anything, this might add some variety to the suicidal server selection. Other than that, I personally could give a toss less if someone wants to grind their levels out. That was kind of the beauty of obvious grind maps - I could avoid them.

[moosecatlol]

BLACK LIST KF FARM! Just because you cant use the doors to get on the roof, doesn't mean you cant still get up there to perk camp suicidal Fleshpounds.

TL;DR Unprofessional.

While you're at it all maps M through T should just be taken off as well.

If you want I can go through all 170 screen shots...

FFS the whole concept of the whitelist is broken due the fact that, its not really being moderated by tripwire, but more so the public. Basically if the public doesn't like it, than it probably will get petitioned and removed. Even if it doesn't have any exploits.

There's over 100 maps that are on the whitelist that you could just as easily perk level on, but they're not being removed. Maps like Icebreaker, Bedlam, and Tachikawa are all whitelisted despite their massive faults.

[Grease]

there is a bug on defense-b2, you can sit under the stairs in the building and the zeds won't know where you are. They'll just stand outside the door and wander around inside the building and walk up/down the stairs trying to find you.

[Corion]

there is a bug on defense-b2, you can sit under the stairs in the building and the zeds won't know where you are. They'll just stand outside the door and wander around inside the building and walk up/down the stairs trying to find you.Maybe we'll get to see a defence_b3 with some bug and balance fixes. That'd be nice.

[InsertEvilLaugh]

Maybe we'll get to see a defence_b3 with some bug and balance fixes. That'd be nice.

Yeah like they could place some obstacles to prevent someone from getting under the stairs at all.

[thegrimace]

I welcome this change. Of course there will be others, but the last time I tried to play the 9 best servers available to me were on defence-b2. That's pretty insane, no matter how you look at it. There may be other maps just waiting to be exploited, but at least for a while server owners and the people voting will be trying out others to see what's next. Variety is good.

Also, as soon as something else is getting played exclusively, it will probably get blacklisted. It is somewhat arbitrary, but I think the effect it has is desirable. So many people put in a lot of time to get the map count for this game up. I'd like to see the number of maps available in KF reflected to some extent in the server browser.

[Corion]

I'd like to see the number of maps available in KF reflected to some extent in the server browser.I never thought about it until recently, but it would be great to have a lobby system that would list all potentially available maps and find you a server with that map. I was trying to hunt down a server that had Candlesmoke and it took a while since at the time none were playing it - I had to connect to about 8 different servers playing other maps before I found a server that had it.

[Izsu]

So it finally got blacklisted, huh?

Well, I'm still going to keep the night-version of the map on my server, cause I love how it looks. All those pretty lanterns..

[Zonker]

I was trying to hunt down a server that had Candlesmoke and it took a while since at the time none were playing it - I had to connect to about 8 different servers playing other maps before I found a server that had it.

I'd love to include Candlesmoke in our map-cycle... but I got the feeling the map might be a LITTLE too difficult to run it on a suicidal server. :)

Concerning Defence: I'm actually glad it got kicked from the whitelist, although it will only be a matter of time till all the suicidal servers will be occupied with the next big leveling thing, I guess.

[Grease]

Hi all,

I have a problem in the Defence-b2 map, i cant level my perk anymore and a lot of people have the same problem.

Anyone knows what is the problem? Is the Map blacklistet from Valve?

Just because it's on steam doesn't mean that valve made it.

KF is Tripwire Interactive, not Valve.


And the blacklist isn't run by official TWI employees, it's run by a few elitist forum-goers on the KF website.

[Nathuram]

Aw this is complete crap. I loved defense. Most fun map I ever played.

[steiner666]

Wooohooo! There is a god, and he works for TWI :-D

[Corion]

Aw this is complete crap. I loved defense. Most fun map I ever played.Nothing's stopping you from playing it! You just can't level perks at absurd rates on that map anymore.

[Nathuram]

Nothing's stopping you from playing it! You just can't level perks at absurd rates on that map anymore.

Is there some hidden rule where we all play a game with a levelling system but have to pretend that levelling doesn't add to the fun?

It's the whole theme of the game. an FPS game with experience earned for doing stuff.


Meanwhile levelling on defence was hardly any easier than other maps. Unless the map ran absurd mutators which you can do on any map anyway.

[Corion]

Is there some hidden rule where we all play a game with a levelling system but have to pretend that levelling doesn't add to the fun?

It's the whole theme of the game. an FPS game with experience earned for doing stuff.While I do agree that leveling is fun, some fun is leeched out of the game by it being too easy and losing its significance. You could probably hack the game and gain all the levels instantly, which is far easier than any map out there, but it's not nearly as fun (IMO) as actually earning it the normal way. Though not as extreme, using super-easy maps to level takes away some of the fun, too.
Meanwhile leveling on defence was hardly any easier than other maps. Unless the map ran absurd mutators which you can do on any map anyway.You're either fooling yourself or you never played Demolitions on that map. You could easily gain about 25% of level 5 or 6 in a single playthrough of a 10-wave game. I'd have ~600 kills by the end of a game - and that's with NO mutators on hard difficulty. Defence_b2 was like shooting fish in a barrel with a grenade launcher.

If the map isn't enjoyable at all unless you can level your perks on it, perhaps the map isn't that good in the first place...

And anyways, the map being blacklisted wasn't just about the fact that leveling is significantly easier on that map anyway, it's about the fact that there are known exploits that make it impossible for the specimen to attack you, like camping underneath the stairs. If it were an official TWI map they could just fix it and update it with a patch, but since it's a community-made map the only thing they can do is blacklist it until the author fixes it.

Nathuram, If you're so sore about them removing this map, maybe you could find out exactly what got it blacklisted and fix the map yourself. Complaining about it in the forums isn't going to fix the map and it isn't going to get it re-whitelisted.

[AeonGrey]

This is what happens when games are based around perks and achievements. You end up with a bunch of jackasses trying to get their characters leveled up as fast as they can! ZOMG!!!

[Ebay]

First of all, yes, I grinded most of my perks to level 6.
Why? Because back in the mod days, I was one of the regulars. Suicidal was all I was playing, and I had a lot of fun back then.
When I started playing KF (during the free weekend), I already had a basic knowledge of the perks and the way those level up.

I then realised that unless I would level up for hours and hours, I would not be able to play on my favorite difficulty because my perks were too low level.
Now understand, I'm not a bad player. In fact, I consider myself quite good without a crosshair. So when I was not playing the game with Hard, I was grinding my perks on a custom map.
This way I grinded Demo,Firebug,Support and to some extent, SS.
In the meantime, my Medic perk leveled pretty fast without me having to play it much. Now I'm trying to level up my Zerker and commando, both 4.
I like and I hate commando at the same time, because if there is another commando higher level than me, it become useless to try and level up my perk.

Do I regret grinding my perks? Only a little. I really enjoy having being able to use my perks at their maximum in my favorite difficulty. I just kinda miss the leveling aspect, but since it was more annoying than anything, its not too bad.

Now, about the map.
The map was big, stupidly empty and incredibly easy. It was boring to play and didn't pose any challenge.

[Grease]

First of all, yes, I grinded most of my perks to level 6.
Why? Because back in the mod days, I was one of the regulars. Suicidal was all I was playing, and I had a lot of fun back then.
When I started playing KF (during the free weekend), I already had a basic knowledge of the perks and the way those level up.

I then realised that unless I would level up for hours and hours, I would not be able to play on my favorite difficulty because my perks were too low level.
Now understand, I'm not a bad player. In fact, I consider myself quite good without a crosshair. So when I was not playing the game with Hard, I was grinding my perks on a custom map.
This way I grinded Demo,Firebug,Support and to some extent, SS.
In the meantime, my Medic perk leveled pretty fast without me having to play it much. Now I'm trying to level up my Zerker and commando, both 4.
I like and I hate commando at the same time, because if there is another commando higher level than me, it become useless to try and level up my perk.

Do I regret grinding my perks? Only a little. I really enjoy having being able to use my perks at their maximum in my favorite difficulty. I just kinda miss the leveling aspect, but since it was more annoying than anything, its not too bad.

Now, about the map.
The map was big, stupidly empty and incredibly easy. It was boring to play and didn't pose any challenge.

If you regret grinding up your perks, there is something you can write in one of the files to have all your perks and achievements reset. If you want to, I'll look it up.

[Ebay]

If you regret grinding up your perks, there is something you can write in one of the files to have all your perks and achievements reset. If you want to, I'll look it up.

I already know that. But I'd be smashing my head on my desk if I had to re-level all my perks.

Stupid grind.

[kamikazekrieg]

First of all, yes, I grinded most of my perks to level 6.
Why? Because back in the mod days, I was one of the regulars. Suicidal was all I was playing, and I had a lot of fun back then.
When I started playing KF (during the free weekend), I already had a basic knowledge of the perks and the way those level up.

in the mod you had lvl 0, and lvl 1. the perks didnt play any significant role in the game like they do now. and your perks were also saved to the server. ill say it again, in the mod days, perks didnt mean crap.

so if you played suicidal ok back then, but needed to grind to lvl 6 so you can play suicidal now that is very odd because kf mod was far harder than retail. i think you are just talking out of your ...

[thegrimace]

...so if you played suicidal ok back then, but needed to grind to lvl 6 so you can play suicidal now that is very odd because kf mod was far harder than retail. i think you are just talking out of your ...

He's probably more concerned with being kicked from suicidal servers. Low level perks are generally not welcome in suicidal servers, resulting in kicks. With good reason of course, perks play a huge role in the retail KF.

This whole whitelist/blacklist business reminds me of the removal of perking in 6+ servers. I was so upset when that happened last summer, but ultimately it worked out and I'm still playing. Just remember why you played the game in the first place guys, it wasn't for defence-b2.

[kamikazekrieg]

really odd how everyones banding together over this map :-\ theres clearly a group of ppl who both like it and hate it. there never really was such a thing back in the mod. except i do remember a period when ppl would play KF-A_Bargain over and over, and that was equally as rushed. like someone who learned how to play "smoke on the water" and then runs out to show the world. his later maps became alot better, but as for the guy behind kf-defence, where is he?!

[RalphMalph]

I only played it a half dozen times ever, all in the last 2 weeks.

Meh, it was a bit of mindless enjoyment. The only reason I was playing it was because it was fun as all of my perks are 5/6 with the exception of demo.

The only real exploit I saw was a way to stand on teh trader's wall when it closed to get 10 feet in the air and immune to anything except husks and sirens.

As far as the stairs go, I saw bad pathing for the crawlers that would get them under the stairs but the couldnt get back out.

If I actually still see it on a server, Ill play it but Im sure that will be a rare happening if it isnt on the whitelist anymore.


EDIT: I went back and played this again last night and actually went in those alcoves next to the doors.

Yeah, those murder holes are kind of a problem. I still havent seen anyone hide under stairs though. The few times Ive played the map I havent seen anyone blatantly using a mechanic like that except the previously mentioned trader door/wall thing.

Meh, white listed or not if I see it on a server Ill jump in and play if I am of a mood.

Block up under the stairs and make the murder holes a lot smaller and I bet it would be fine.

[Friendliest]

FFS the whole concept of the whitelist is broken due the fact that, its not really being moderated by tripwire, but more so the public. Basically if the public doesn't like it, than it probably will get petitioned and removed. Even if it doesn't have any exploits.

The real problem is that "the public" = "loudmouths who hang out on the forums" and not "everyone who plays the game". It's a problem with a lot of games, IMO.

Cripes look what a relatively few misguided complainers (oh ahem excuse me.... "pros") did to the game of Quake! :( :( :(

[InsertEvilLaugh]

Just because it's on steam doesn't mean that valve made it.

KF is Tripwire Interactive, not Valve.


And the blacklist isn't run by official TWI employees, it's run by a few elitist forum-goers on the KF website.

Sadly your right, TWI makes a general decision. They play all maps submitted and give them a couple of playthroughs, if they feel it's balanced enough they'll put it on the Whitelist, if they feel it's too easily camped they reject it.

Once a map is on the whitelist people will play it and have fun or ditch it all together. Defence was yes a pretty good grind map, though, any map can be a grind map, many maps had at least one section where you could sit down and mow down the enemies as they shambled towards you. People ♥♥♥♥♥ed about Defence for several reasons.

1) Well yeah pretty easy map, if your alone sit at the top of one of the stairs and wait for them to come up to your, if there were more people, everyone welds and takes the door and kills specimens who attack their door and the tower makes an easy spot to massacre the Patriarch on.

2) It had the stair issue, in the tower a person could go in, turn it onto a long game flip on the Poundamonium mutator, and shove your chainsaw through the stairs and kill them all grinding your Berserker class up to level 6.

3) The elitist's didn't like it because it was easy and let people grind easily though I've still seen even some more experienced players get overrun even on some higher difficulties.

Well I could list a couple more not many but mostly it's all just, again that group of people who are on the forums constantly ♥♥♥♥♥ing about what they like or dislike. Now, I would like to see Defence returned to the whitelist though with some changes, woo another list.

1) Block the stairs in the tower so you can't slip under them and hide there to prevent perk grinding in that spot.

2) Make it so the little windows beside the doors that allow people to look to the doors don't protect you from siren screams and it's easier to be attacked through by speciments.

3) Make the doors weaker

4) remove some of the ammo and weapon drops, their pretty predictable and easy to fall back on. Even on Suicidal it's pretty ridiculous how many there are.

I doubt a new version will be made and whitelisted but I can dream, and hope, I'd make it though my brains tend to hurt when I try to use the SDK though I think I should just tinker with it some more.

[scalindor]

Since the whilelist was made, this game come to worst to worst...IMO

[Corion]

Since the whilelist was made, this game come to worst to worst...IMOI think the whitelist makes sense.

Perk-leveling maps were exploits of the perk system, whether you like to admit that or not.

They probably could have avoided a lot of bickering on the forums if they just made perk leveling only work on official maps (and the ones that got picked up by TwI from the leveling contest), but would that really be better?

I'd rather have the whitelist than an official-maps-only policy, and certain maps being excluded is a side effect of the system.

[trilance]

Since the whilelist was made, this game come to worst to worst...IMO

I assume you've never played on KF_Leveling or any of the true leveling maps before the whitelist was implemented. Those were the REAL leveling maps where you could do anything you wanted to to level.

There were doors with millions of points so you could weld forever, the burning stack of horses/cows in the back so you could level your medic, and a massive fenced off area where specimens dropped into where you could stand safely behind a fence or up on a walkway and blast them to your heart's content.

Then there was that second famous leveling map where everything spawned in this narrow hallway and you could shoot whatever and never get touched. Moreover? Weapons of all types were placed everywhere so you could simply drop and reload in an instant.

Better yet? There was another hallway trap where only stalkers spawned for easy Commando leveling.

So...is the whitelist a bad idea? Quite on the contrary.

[scalindor]

I assume you've never played on KF_Leveling or any of the true leveling maps before the whitelist was implemented. Those were the REAL leveling maps where you could do anything you wanted to to level.

There were doors with millions of points so you could weld forever, the burning stack of horses/cows in the back so you could level your medic, and a massive fenced off area where specimens dropped into where you could stand safely behind a fence or up on a walkway and blast them to your heart's content.

Then there was that second famous leveling map where everything spawned in this narrow hallway and you could shoot whatever and never get touched. Moreover? Weapons of all types were placed everywhere so you could simply drop and reload in an instant.

Better yet? There was another hallway trap where only stalkers spawned for easy Commando leveling.

So...is the whitelist a bad idea? Quite on the contrary.

yeha i heard about that map before, that was so hilarious map, in this case whitelist is a good option, BUT, in a fu**ck**!ng map where exist 4 doors and every zed are incoming from anywhere... it doesn't make me sense... I dont know what kind of ideas have twi about this system, but with this case, is so annoying...

EDIT:
some people says about playing in solo mode, don't let you level up any perk, so what is the idea? huh¿? what next? playing in farm + bloat mut = farming = cheat? to be honest i dont know what to wait...

[thegrimace]

some people says about playing in solo mode, don't let you level up any perk, so what is the idea? huh¿? what next? playing in farm + bloat mut = farming = cheat? to be honest i dont know what to wait...

I'd imagine one of the motivating factors is if a map is taking over the server list. If a map dominates the list and it contains major glitches/has too many exploits it gets blacklisted. This is of course subjective. It depends on what the player base does with that map and how TWI perceives the map.

I don't think it's a result of "loud mouths". It's a subjective assessment of what is fun and what is a detriment to the community. The "loud mouths" explode when the crossbow or M14 comes up, but nothing has happened yet, so there is more going on than meets the eye.

They don't just get their way because they say things on this forum. People say things all the time. Only when TWI agrees does something happen. So don't blame the people who bother to give feedback. It's up to TWI.

[turtlesoup]

yeha i heard about that map before, that was so hilarious map, in this case whitelist is a good option, BUT, in a fu**ck**!ng map where exist 4 doors and every zed are incoming from anywhere... it doesn't make me sense... I dont know what kind of ideas have twi about this system, but with this case, is so annoying...

EDIT:
some people says about playing in solo mode, don't let you level up any perk, so what is the idea? huh¿? what next? playing in farm + bloat mut = farming = cheat? to be honest i dont know what to wait...

once again, there were three (3) known exploits on kf-defence able to camp out of danger, and that's why it was taken off the list. you can still play it whenever you want, plenty of custom servers still running this map.

the original mapper is MIA but there is supposedly a remix version being worked on, which might get listed soon.

[Petar1337]

Why is there even a whitelist in the first place? Has anyone who complains about rare, hard to find map exploits ever even realized that console commands can be used? You can set yourself to infinite health, super-high jumping, and any specimen to massive health (allows for demo-boosting; also there are console commands that can level you to Level 6 in one shot for Firebug and Support Spec.). I think that perhaps instead of Black-listing maps that are 90% used for fun, TWI should not allow the use of Console Commands in game with no penalty.

[turtlesoup]

Why is there even a whitelist in the first place? Has anyone who complains about rare, hard to find map exploits ever even realized that console commands can be used? You can set yourself to infinite health, super-high jumping, and any specimen to massive health (allows for demo-boosting; also there are console commands that can level you to Level 6 in one shot for Firebug and Support Spec.). I think that perhaps instead of Black-listing maps that are 90% used for fun, TWI should not allow the use of Console Commands in game with no penalty.

leveling gets disabled if you change any related game variables. you can still play on them and perks still work, you just can't advance your rank.

what difference does it make if you can't level on it, unless you only play on the same grinding maps over and over?

[moosecatlol]

leveling gets disabled if you change any related game variables. you can still play on them and perks still work, you just can't advance your rank.

what difference does it make if you can't level on it, unless you only play on the same grinding maps over and over?

Forgot the "Except on listen servers."

No one cares to do their research anymore, quite disheartening.

[Shinnizle]

[Deleted]