New Add On Co-Op Play!

[Blade01]

http://yuplay.com/story.php?title=Wings-Prey--Wings-Luftwaffe--pre-order-1

£7.00 english, a bargain!

[Vetron]

Already pre-ordered :cool: - it is indeed an excellent bargain (£7) considering the amount of content included.

Co-op and aircraft skins will be a great addition to the game, can't wait till its released...

[fearlessfrog]

Hmmm

- No steam option for DLC, i.e. have to set up your credit card with yuplay.ru

- Extra planes 'gouging'

- Previous content that was going to be free is now being charged for (Dev's said co-op would be free before, what changed?).

Guys, it's good to support a struggling company but it might be easier to set up a 'Donate Now' paypal button or something via a fan-site? That way people could subsidize this company out of honest charity rather than paying for patches/updates that were going to be free...

[King Midol]

Ripoff. Should be 100% free.

[oto niel]

Did they come forward with dedis?? if not this is nothing more than a gimmick to try and milk some naive people, a little more.

To answer a guy commenting on the link posted

What about Steam users ?

Screwed baby, since the very beginning.

[fearlessfrog]

Did they come forward with dedis?? if not this is nothing more than a gimmick to try and milk some naive people, a little more.

To answer a guy commenting on the link posted



Screwed baby, since the very beginning.

Man, their forum thread is a train-wreck. For comedy value it's here:

http://forum.yuplay.com/index.php?showtopic=1776&st=40&p=12139&#entry12139

They are threatening to stop support for the game unless people buy this extra mode.

What with the DRM activations, looks like it's time to take bets on how long the game can be played for. The devs have not said anywhere that they will release the 3 activation limit DRM if they stop support.

i.e from the game dev's CEO:

http://forum.yuplay.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=1776&view=findpost&p=12060

QUOTE (1GC_Trok @ Mar 26 2010, 09:51 PM)
another payware... add-on!

We've been working long and hard on this add-on. We already have released tens of free updates.
And still, currently, the game have not even break even.
So either we abandon support, or we'll provide really big addons (such as this one) - as add-ons, not free updates.

If it is not reasonable - then I don't know what is.

What I find really annoying is that they still haven't figured out that DRM hurt their sales, i.e. the 'add-on' pack to play co-op still has the same starforce DRM and 3 activation limits - any mention of it on the forums (i.e. the links above) is immediately deleted from their 'community'.

So sad - flight sims struggle on the PC so much, and these bozos do this...

[flybywire527]

Hi;is this new add on strictly multi player use only,or also single player?

[yuhaoyang]

I've never been more disappointed with a purchase TBH... played for a total of 5 and a bit hours, found so many annoyances that I stopped for good... That, and the 9 DEACTIVATION LIMIT... Rawr, really pisses me off...
People on that forum are going like "this will eventually be more realistic than IL-2."
Right, thus it will be because it's based on the same physics engine.

For shame... I'm back at 1946, for 1/5 the price

[Fozzy the bear]

Right, thus it will be because it's based on the same physics engine.

This isn't the sequel to il2. I have read on the simHQ forums that there is no relation in the two engines being used in the game, other than both being set in WW2.

What I find really annoying is that they still haven't figured out that DRM hurt their sales, i.e. the 'add-on' pack to play co-op still has the same starforce DRM and 3 activation limits - any mention of it on the forums (i.e. the links above) is immediately deleted from their 'community'.

So sad - flight sims struggle on the PC so much, and these bozos do this...

You have to bare in mind that Russians are new to the whole capitalist system of doing business. So you shouldn't expect them to operate as a western company would. Years of being told where to work and how to do this and that has led to a melt down in common sense when it comes to business matters.

The bigger question, how long do you think this company will stay in business? They seem to be hinting that a cash flow they were hoping to achieve at a certain point hasn't materialized, so they are probably borrowing money and digging deeper into the red. Because of their horrible business model, they have not only hurt themselves - from not listening to their consumer -, but hurt the flight sim community.


Anton Yudintsev
It costs like BigMac and Cola

LOL WTF? When did a "Big Mac" and "Cola" cost $10?

[Hokum]

They are threatening to stop support for the game unless people buy this extra mode.

Don't be surprised in the slightest if they do... this company stopped supporting my Xbox version (failing to release a desperately needed patch that they had already made for the PS3 version) and then blamed it all on their publisher... now they're working for themselves and it seems they're acting exactly the same way. I would never buy one of their products again expecting it to be supported for more than a week. They produce nice stuff, but they have no understanding of the concept of long term (i.e. beyond one month) support for their games. By fall this year they'll be trying to push Wings of Prey 2 on us on both the console and PC, well all I have to say is once bitten, twice shy...

[fearlessfrog]

...

LOL WTF? When did a "Big Mac" and "Cola" cost $10?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_index

..so must be an expensive cola.

There are doing exactly the wrong thing, in that they'll target a paid for add-on that should be free and then only the hard-core will buy it, i.e. they are beyond hope and tiny in number, plus considering 'supporting' the game like some sort of charity, i.e. homeless cats, xmas hampers for the destitute and now self-destructive pc flight-sims.

If they followed the IL-2 route, i.e. form a community that has servers, sdks, free add-on and, ahem, none of the 3 activations DRM :) (go on, you know it was coming...) then they would have stood a chance.

[fearlessfrog]

Don't be surprised in the slightest if they do... this company stopped supporting my Xbox version (failing to release a desperately needed patch that they had already made for the PS3 version) and then blamed it all on their publisher... now they're working for themselves and it seems they're acting exactly the same way. I would never buy one of their products again expecting it to be supported for more than a week. They produce nice stuff, but they have no understanding of the concept of long term (i.e. beyond one month) support for their games. By fall this year they'll be trying to push Wings of Prey 2 on us on both the console and PC, well all I have to say is once bitten, twice shy...

My prediction would be something like in about 3 months:

'Gaijin are proud to announce Tetris WW2 Edition - DDay in Blocks - 3D Edition. Unfortunately due to rampant piracy on the PC we've decided to make this a console only title, initially just targetting the Wii. We're excite to share that you can now buy the 'flat tetris piece' for only $7 from our new yupaytwice.ru store!'

Plus the deluded Wings of Pay users will then get their DRM server turned off in about 3 months + 1 day's time...

[oto niel]

What a sad way to do treat their customer, and it's even more sad the state of delusional Hammer Legion Memberism some people display on that forums.

As I said before, what is the use of releasing coop without dedis, (I won't even get into the chargin for it thingy), with an online multiplayer community that is mostly dead, with some hardcore fans even acknowledging the huge online shortcomings.

Still at that:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
QUOTE (Dude27 @ Mar 27 2010, 02:10 PM) *
Ok, let me get this clear: will this new addon's "fees" will provide you the way to implement REAL changes in this game? (more simulation (random) campaign, bigger maps, career mode, Missions editor, more support to the Modding community to import new skin new skins or change the monochromatic tone of the game) if yes, I will support you buying this BUT if not, consider me OUT of your little "game" with your consumers, I will wait patiently for Storm of War.

As you noticed before, a LOT (more than 80%) of your community are from PC and simulation, so please think about them also... 10 more (arcade style) missions won't cut the deal for me and for them.

Todace:
Ok let me get this clear.

we are not wizards and can't create features by only our wish. And all of them needs time and money.
And some needs more then others.
For example dedicated servers and mission editor need MUCH MORE then co-op.

If players will like the game and will support it - they'll have all of them someday. For example, we are working on mission editor right now, but it wont be ready soon - it needs lots of work more.
this addon will have coop mode.

Look to the todo list and you'll see that nothing to whine about.

http://forum.yuplay.com/index.php?showtopic=1776&view=findpost&p=12139
------------------------------------------------------------------

So I'm like, OMG, if coop under the current crappy online code costs 10, then how much will things like dedis or editors will cost, if they are so much more hard to add?

I have said this from the beginning, what a big corporate money making mindset for such an small indie company.

[Blade01]

Lol, they should rename this forum to the WOP Haters Union.

You guys could get a room & hate on each other all day.

No wonder anyone sensible never posts here.

That is all.

[Fozzy the bear]

Lol, they should rename this forum to the WOP Haters Union.

You guys could get a room & hate on each other all day.

No wonder anyone sensible never posts here.

That is all.

So asking for Gaijin to make dedicated server files instead of more arcadey addons is hating?

Oh, please leave your "in Mother Russia you don't buy game, game buys you" mentality out of future discussions on this forum. You clearly show you are unable to have an academic discussion about what Gaijin should prioritize without you taking everything someone says as "hating." You merely posting in this thread has made us all a little more stupid and wasted 10 seconds of our lives trying to make sense of your statement.

[fearlessfrog]

Lol, they should rename this forum to the WOP Haters Union.

You guys could get a room & hate on each other all day.

No wonder anyone sensible never posts here.

That is all.

I'd post on the yuplay forum but they delete posts that ask questions they don't approve of. Steam doesn't do that.

All that's left in that forum is basically guys like you hanging off the dev's appendages telling them how great they are. I don't think you realize that you aren't helping them, and basically just hastening the games demise.

Also, I kind of liked the 'Wings of Pay' pun... :-)

[oto niel]

So asking for Gaijin to make dedicated server files instead of more arcadey addons is hating?

Oh, please leave your "in Mother Russia you don't buy game, game buys you" mentality out of future discussions on this forum. You clearly show you are unable to have an academic discussion about what Gaijin should prioritize without you taking everything someone says as "hating." You merely posting in this thread has made us all a little more stupid and wasted 10 seconds of our lives trying to make sense of your statement.

I guess if we were posting things like what's below,that would make us "sensible" posters. :eek:

I love this game! Sure it has some issues, every game does, and the support for this game has been very good. I plan on buying the addon to keep this game going. My hope is that the devs make the most of this game, such as: implementing a dynamic campaign system with new plane sets, heck I would pay as much I paid for the game to get that!
http://forum.yuplay.com/index.php?showtopic=1776&view=findpost&p=12223

Just throwing this out there, but I would pay another $30.00 for a North African expansion. I would love to see this sim with some real desert terrain!!!

I want to bomb some convoys!!!! :)

And PLEEEEAAASE seperate Target Tracking from Target Labels. I want the head lock without the labels. I would pay just for that!!!!
http://forum.yuplay.com/index.php?showtopic=1776&view=findpost&p=12255



everybody is entitled to their own opinions, damn right, but the question remains, are they going to turn this title into payware without fixing the common issues?

[BasketCaseOIC]

LOL, I'm still amazed at the lack of professionalism in the dev's forum posts. They are honest, but my god....are they trying to promote the game or destroy it? They have done NOTHING to gain the consumers confidence. Forcing people to update using torrent with the optional PAID patch downloading is beyond ludicrous. I keep checking on the game's status, hoping to find an excuse to buy the game.....but I just can't justify giving my money to these guys.

Such a complete waste of a great game being distributed in this manner:(

[Fozzy the bear]

LOL, I'm still amazed at the lack of professionalism in the dev's forum posts. They are honest, but my god....are they trying to promote the game or destroy it? They have done NOTHING to gain the consumers confidence. Forcing people to update using torrent with the optional PAID patch downloading is beyond ludicrous. I keep checking on the game's status, hoping to find an excuse to buy the game.....but I just can't justify giving my money to these guys.

Such a complete waste of a great game being distributed in this manner:(

I agree with you. Are we dealing with a real gaming studio or a group of n00bs making a game? I forget.

Once they decide to be professional, get rid of DRM and arcadey addons, then I'll purchase the game.

[T-1001]

Lol, they should rename this forum to the WOP Haters Union.

You guys could get a room & hate on each other all day.

No wonder anyone sensible never posts here.

That is all.
QFT!
I play and enjoy the full game,
and the new add-on is amazing.
And I don't post here often.
I visit this forum maybe once a month,
and all I see are hate threads/posts;
get a life people!

[BasketCaseOIC]

I'm absolutely sure that the game / add-on is amazing......never questioned that. However, the form of distribution, and support is very much in question. I simply refuse to support Yuplay, when they find it acceptable to charge extra $$$ to download a freaking patch (yes, I know the torrent patches work, but that's just silly:)

So there you go.....If you like the game, great! I'm waiting for the day that they fully support the Steam version, which probably won't happen. I have plenty of other games / flight sims to keep me occupied.

[Blade01]

You're right about the amazing part.

Just can't understand why people deny themselve's a quality product because of principles, there a scene in the movie Pulp Fiction, where the boxer played by Bruce Willis is talkin to the gangster about losin/throwin the fight, he talks about Pride, have a listen & you'll see where i'm comin from.

[fearlessfrog]

...

Just can't understand why people deny themselve's a quality product because of principles, ...

^ There's your problem, friend...

Are you absolutely sure you understand what a principle is? If you never had to deny yourself anything just because you wanted to make a stand or take a position then anyone could do it. You're basically describing the thought process of a 2 year old, i.e. you take a position on something, unless you *really* want it - then it's ok to just give in...

Wings of Pay users often pop up on this forum and say 'Ah, the DRM is not what I like - but I bought it anyway'. That's cool, but from my point of view that kinds of invalidates any future complaints if (a) you get even more DRM and (b) you can't play your game in a few months when support stops and yupay goes under.

Principles are a personal thing, and I've long ago realized that some people are just kinda weak when it comes to getting what they want, i.e. they don't see a connection between cause/effect of their actions. They basically live off the goodwill of others, in that responsibility is someone else's problem. It's a slippery slope, i.e. why not steal if you can get away with it, why bother to vote, maybe just try to do the minimum in life etc?

The ironic thing is that people that dislike the DRM and then still buy Wings of Pay are morally much more alike to software pirates / stealing than people who stand by their princples and won't buy something they want but still vote with their wallet..

Sad really..

[Blade01]

^ There's your problem, friend...

Are you absolutely sure you understand what a principle is? If you never had to deny yourself anything just because you wanted to make a stand or take a position then anyone could do it. You're basically describing the thought process of a 2 year old, i.e. you take a position on something, unless you *really* want it - then it's ok to just give in...

Wings of Pay users often pop up on this forum and say 'Ah, the DRM is not what I like - but I bought it anyway'. That's cool, but from my point of view that kinds of invalidates any future complaints if (a) you get even more DRM and (b) you can't play your game in a few months when support stops and yupay goes under.

Principles are a personal thing, and I've long ago realized that some people are just kinda weak when it comes to getting what they want, i.e. they don't see a connection between cause/effect of their actions. They basically live off the goodwill of others, in that responsibility is someone else's problem. It's a slippery slope, i.e. why not steal if you can get away with it, why bother to vote, maybe just try to do the minimum in life etc?

The ironic thing is that people that dislike the DRM and then still buy Wings of Pay are morally much more alike to software pirates / stealing than people who stand by their princples and won't buy something they want but still vote with their wallet..

Sad really..


Excellent retort.

You're right, thanks, i agree with your sentiments.

Ps: enjoy life(that includes playin great online flight sims), it's too short.

[fearlessfrog]

Excellent retort.

You're right, thanks, i agree with your sentiments.

Ps: enjoy life(that includes playin great online flight sims), it's too short.

We're lucky that there are many (many) other games to spend money/time on Steam. Choosing not to play WoP because of the 3 activation limit DRM isn't really that much of a hardship..

Life being short is a good reason not to throw away your principles just because something looks shiny.

[Blade01]

Mmmmmm shiny..he he.

I like shiny so i'll play it.

[Fozzy the bear]

Mmmmmm shiny..he he.

I like shiny so i'll play it.

I'm sure you do. You are the reason why gaming in general has gone down hill in the last few years. Back in the days gamers didn't play games just because they were fun, but because they were pretty much art lovers. Then came along your crowd that brought in the era of spawn, die, spawn, die, spawn, die and rinse and repeat game genre.

In conclusion, there are more of you than us, which will result in more DRM and bastardization of the gaming industry. Because of your inability to stand on principle, you have given a green light to game studios that DRM is no big deal and other game breaking functions in the name of anti-piracy.

[Blade01]

Thanks.

[oto niel]

Ps: enjoy life(that includes playin great online flight sims), it's too short.

Enjoying life includes playing great online flight sims???

You must not be talking about WOP because it ain't even a sim, much less great one, but, you sure it's not the time to be getting out of your parent's basement??

[T-1001]

Dudes, if you don't like the distributionthe, DRM, or whatever the ♥♥♥♥, go get the retail version from 777 Studios and stop QQ'ing.

[BasketCaseOIC]

Dudes, if you don't like the distributionthe, DRM, or whatever the ♥♥♥♥, go get the retail version from 777 Studios and stop QQ'ing.

ummmmm.....because it still relies on Yuplay for updates, instead of a REAL download service. It is only $39 on www.gogamer.com / not a bad price for a more up-to-date version, but still too much for the hassle.

[fearlessfrog]

Dudes, if you don't like the distributionthe, DRM, or whatever the ♥♥♥♥, go get the retail version from 777 Studios and stop QQ'ing.

Is the 3 activation DRM not on the 777 Studios release then? I didn't hear anything about changes, but a link would be good...


Edit - Nope, it's the EXACT SAME DRM from starforce, but this time on a disk. Wow, how inept...

'Jason from 777 Studios

It's the same system yes. However, you can Deactivate each install and therefore never run out of activations. Or if you do run out of activations Gaijin will gladly give you more.

Jason'
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2991253/Re_777_Studios_Partners_with_G.html#Post2991253

[Ancient Seraph]

I'd post on the yuplay forum but they delete posts that ask questions they don't approve of. Steam doesn't do that.

All that's left in that forum is basically guys like you hanging off the dev's appendages telling them how great they are. I don't think you realize that you aren't helping them, and basically just hastening the games demise.

Also, I kind of liked the 'Wings of Pay' pun... :-)

You should check the YuPlay forums before making statements like that. We don't delete anything just because it's bad for YuPlay/Gaijin/WoP.
I can see how it may seem odd that there's positive posts on the YuPlay forums, since company forums are usually used for complaints and/or problems. But there's actually guys liking the game and showing that. Kind of like you guys disliking the game and showing it.

(...)
everybody is entitled to their own opinions, damn right, but the question remains, are they going to turn this title into payware without fixing the common issues?
You do realize that since the release 8 patches have been released fixing the common issues? Glass half empty people say the game was released unfinished, and they would rather wait 5 years for a finished games. Still, if that's not developer support, I don't know what is.

LOL, I'm still amazed at the lack of professionalism in the dev's forum posts. They are honest, but my god....are they trying to promote the game or destroy it? They have done NOTHING to gain the consumers confidence. Forcing people to update using torrent with the optional PAID patch downloading is beyond ludicrous. I keep checking on the game's status, hoping to find an excuse to buy the game.....but I just can't justify giving my money to these guys.

Such a complete waste of a great game being distributed in this manner:(
In PR companies are either blamed for being too political and not getting to the point, or not sweet-talking enough. A lose-lose situation basically. Give me the honest companies anytime.
The distribution method isn't as smooth as can be, sure, but if they'd hired a publisher to do it better, WoP might've cost a lot more, and Gaijin might've been limited in certain things by the publisher (see the BoP history).

And don't give me the 'you're a company guy' stuff. I'm not part of Gaijin, even if I'm a mod, and I try not to base my arguments on opinions.

[fearlessfrog]

You should check the YuPlay forums before making statements like that. We don't delete anything just because it's bad for YuPlay/Gaijin/WoP.
I can see how it may seem odd that there's positive posts on the YuPlay forums, since company forums are usually used for complaints and/or problems. But there's actually guys liking the game and showing that. Kind of like you guys disliking the game and showing it.
(snip)

True, I haven't had any posts deleted (kind of hard to prove others have been deleted, as I wouldn't see them), but I've seen threads locked too soon, i.e. annoyed developers responding with 'locked thread'. I think that's the wrong approach personally.

Also, please don't misunderstand that all people here who (a) want to let people know on Steam about the DRM (this game launched here not actually saying about the DRM) and (b) who disagree with the DRM policy and mechanism, actively dislike the game. It's actually the opposite.

Consider this - if we really disliked the game then what would be our motivation for contributing to the DRM threads on this forum? It is because I think it might one day influence that decision, i.e. it is *because* we like the potential of this game that we're still here commenting.

It is too easy to paint broad strokes of 'DRM Trolls' and 'those people on the steam forums' when actually you may misunderstand our motivations. Marginalizing a section of the community as 'paranoid' or 'would never change their mind' does a disservice to both groups.

WoP isn't a lost cause on Steam, but it would now take a brave decision by Gaijin to change their mind in reorganizing the DRM. I think it is up to you who have their ear to make sure these messages get passed on (i.e. locked threads don't help reiterate the level of support etc.)

[oto niel]

You should check the YuPlay forums before making statements like that. We don't delete anything just because it's bad for YuPlay/Gaijin/WoP.
I can see how it may seem odd that there's positive posts on the YuPlay forums, since company forums are usually used for complaints and/or problems. But there's actually guys liking the game and showing that. Kind of like you guys disliking the game and showing it.

I tend to disagree, I too have seen dissenting posted either censored or locked too soon, and every once in a while when the devs mess up and show their true colors their posts are mysteriously toned down.

Kind of like you guys disliking the company's business practices and showing it.

Speaking for myself, I had to straighten you up there, yet, the only difference is that if we go there and show our dislike, we will get banned, here nobody gets banned for expressing either their like or dislike of the game.


You do realize that since the release 8 patches have been released fixing the common issues? Glass half empty people say the game was released unfinished, and they would rather wait 5 years for a finished games. Still, if that's not developer support, I don't know what is.

Depends on what your concept of common issues are, have they release the much needed dedicated servers? a mission editor?? stopped charging for downloading patches via http?

Yeah, and then there's the so called expansion, and they intend to charge for it, so what's in the future to fix the common issues (lack of dedicated servers for example)? charge for each every fix for those "common issues" ?

So, to answer you, yes, a glass half empty situation, a half empty glass for their users (empty for steamers) and half full for them.

In PR companies are either blamed for being too political and not getting to the point, or not sweet-talking enough. A lose-lose situation basically. Give me the honest companies anytime. The distribution method isn't as smooth as can be, sure, but if they'd hired a publisher to do it better, WoP might've cost a lot more, and Gaijin might've been limited in certain things by the publisher (see the BoP history).

It's not like they have been shinning for their honesty since the beginner, but this has been discussed one too many times here, dig the forum history if you care to.

And don't give me the 'you're a company guy' stuff. I'm not part of Gaijin, even if I'm a mod, and I try not to base my arguments on opinions.

Yes, you were different in the way you posted, but a nice start point for change would be some of the actual company representatives making hands on business with their steam customer base, posting here, like many other companies do.

Thanks for your post.

[Ancient Seraph]

I tend to disagree, I too have seen dissenting posted either censored or locked too soon, and every once in a while when the devs mess up and show their true colors their posts are mysteriously toned down.

'Their true colors'? What, they're the devil himself now? From one side, they're too honest and don't know how to do PR, and now they're blamed for slightly editing their posts for PR reasons. In any case, the only time when I can imagine they did that (I've never seen it, but I'll go out on a limb here) is when the DRM discussions were running hot on the YuPlay forums. Seeing the arguments people used, I was pissed myself, so I can imagine how they might've felt.


Speaking for myself, I had to straighten you up there, yet, the only difference is that if we go there and show our dislike, we will get banned, here nobody gets banned for expressing either their like or dislike of the game.
You got banned? Around the same time as those DRM discussions maybe? I wasn't a mod yet, but I was around, so I don't know if anyone got banned there. I do know that since then there's been complaints of this and that, and people are supposed to, it's a forum, you go their for questions or complaints. However, there haven't been any bans recently.


Depends on what your concept of common issues are, have they release the much needed dedicated servers? a mission editor?? stopped charging for downloading patches via http?

Yeah, and then there's the so called expansion, and they intend to charge for it, so what's in the future to fix the common issues (lack of dedicated servers for example)? charge for each every fix for those "common issues" ?

So, to answer you, yes, a glass half empty situation, a half empty glass for their users (empty for steamers) and half full for them.
Agreed, depends on the concept. The bigger features like the dedi's require a lot of time and resources. But I can't speak about future plans regarding paid content, just like you can't.


It's not like they have been shinning for their honesty since the beginner, but this has been discussed one too many times here, dig the forum history if you care to.
I've never seen them lie, can't really find anything like that either (yeah, big conspiracy theory, they deleted all the evidence, etc). So if you bring bold statements like that you should bring something tangible.



Yes, you were different in the way you posted, but a nice start point for change would be some of the actual company representatives making hands on business with their steam customer base, posting here, like many other companies do.

Thanks for your post.
The devs are exactly that, developers, they spend time on their own forums and the SimHQ ones, where serious questions are being asked. The Steam forums, at the moment, are notoriously useless. The devs won't convince you, nor Fozzy, nor fearlessfrog of anything, so I don't see that changing anytime fast. I can imagine they'd rather work on WoP than attempting that.
I suggest that if you really want to ask them some questions, you go to the YuPlay forums, or if you think we'll ban you there just for showing up on the SimHQ forums.

[fearlessfrog]

..The devs are exactly that, developers, they spend time on their own forums and the SimHQ ones, where serious questions are being asked. The Steam forums, at the moment, are notoriously useless. The devs won't convince you, nor Fozzy, nor fearlessfrog of anything, so I don't see that changing anytime fast. I can imagine they'd rather work on WoP than attempting that.
...

I don't really understand that line of thinking, i.e. that people can't be convinced and should be given up on.

These steam forums are exactly the product what people want to make them, saying that they are useless is just as much a reflection on the game and Gaijin as anything else. All you have to do to make these DRM threads (which as a rule I only contribute too, i.e. I don't start new ones off topic etc) diminish in views is to contribute some better content.

When an actual WoP question comes up then it's often ignored - where are the developers, and why is that my fault again?

You can try to demonise a couple of vocal contributers to the DRM debate but do you really think only 3 people alone have made the steam forum 'useless'? Have you counted how many 'no sale' comments there are in the DRM discussion thread, or are they 'paranoid' and 'not worth discussing with' either? I think you are giving a few of us a lot more credit than we deserve as an easy way out.

One potential conflict of interest is that Yuplay is too similar a service to Steam, i.e. on a few levels it competes with it. It's as if Gaijin decided to publish here but then only did it half-hearted.

I struggle to have sympathy for saying that 'they are just devs' - they are a business like anything else and should stand on their merit. You have an affiliation and fondness for them that is admirable (i.e. you're here, you're commenting for free that helps them) but in all serious, where are they again?

A lot of people here especially really like Steam, I know that sounds obvious and contrite, but Yuplay have to deal with that better if they want the game to work here.

You are a keen advocate for the game, but one thing to consider is that you might not be helping Gaijin - they've put their hands over their ears on this issue and using a core of enthusiasts to agree with them. If you really want to help them with Steam you should ask them to re-engage here rather than running away...

[oto niel]

Their true colors'? What, they're the devil himself now? From one side, they're too honest and don't know how to do PR, and now they're blamed for slightly editing their posts for PR reasons. In any case, the only time when I can imagine they did that (I've never seen it, but I'll go out on a limb here) is when the DRM discussions were running hot on the YuPlay forums. Seeing the arguments people used, I was jarateed myself, so I can imagine how they might've felt.


Ok, let's leave it at really outstanding poor PR, out of honesty, so those initial statements by Anton where a mistake because he was being too honest:

No DRM on the game---> There's DRM on the game but there is not a trace of anything related to starforce--->There is DRM on the game and it's made by the same people but it's not starforce.

yuplayers come first for support and patches, then steamers---->yuplayers come first for offers and discounts, then steamers.

I see a trend there, still, conceding you the point that he was beeing *too* honest, instead of backing his words, his posts *did* get toned down.


You got banned? Around the same time as those DRM discussions maybe? I wasn't a mod yet, but I was around, so I don't know if anyone got banned there. I do know that since then there's been complaints of this and that, and people are supposed to, it's a forum, you go their for questions or complaints. However, there haven't been any bans recently.

No, I never said I was banned, as said a some people's comments where deleted and they complained here of not being able to post again.


Agreed, depends on the concept. The bigger features like the dedi's require a lot of time and resources. But I can't speak about future plans regarding paid content, just like you can't.

Your mistake there, I never said they were coming forward with dedis as payware, *I asked* if they intend to do the same everything they want to add something major (IE, fixing the issue of poor online experience with dedis).

I've never seen them lie, can't really find anything like that either (yeah, big conspiracy theory, they deleted all the evidence, etc). So if you bring bold statements like that you should bring something tangible.


This is really way behind us now, I no longer care about it, I still keep an eye on this game because I love flying games, simesques or arcadeish, I love the, but I will not endorse the actions of a company whose brand equals draconian drm.

If you want facts, look for them yourself, here on this forums, because they are not longer available at yuplay's which is our point, the freedom of speech level here is a little higher than there, but that's understandable, they use their forums as part of their business, it's their right.

The devs are exactly that, developers, they spend time on their own forums and the SimHQ ones, where serious questions are being asked. The Steam forums, at the moment, are notoriously useless.

If you care to take the time to look into other steam forums, for games coming from real "small time indie developers" you will find that that the back and forth communication is a refreshing activity among the trend of the big players who have forgotten that it is us who are putting the food on their tables.


The devs won't convince you, nor Fozzy, nor fearlessfrog of anything, so I don't see that changing anytime fast. I can imagine they'd rather work on WoP than attempting that.

Nobody has to convince me of anything, I know exactly what I want, a WOP fully integrated into steam, draconian DRMless and activation less.

I suggest that if you really want to ask them some questions, you go to the YuPlay forums, or if you think we'll ban you there just for showing up on the SimHQ forums


{pondering the idea}

[BasketCaseOIC]

It's really nice that the dev's / Yuplay mods are treating Steam, and the Steam forum community as the red-headed-stepchild (no offense to the ginger community). Whats really ironic, is that Steam is the far-superior way to reach potential customers.

I really have nothing against Yuplay, other than the way they charge for their non-torrent downloads....but to me, that's a deal breaker. Its a GOOD thing for Steam to have competition, but Yuplay is NOT going to challenge Steam for game sales.

---So, why not:
* wake up.....update the Steam version through Steam?
* offer "yuplay exclusive" content (aircraft) to Steam customers?
* sell DLC (expansion / booster packs) through the Steam store?

Do these simple things, and your game sales would increase dramatically, even with the activation limits. But then again, what do we know? We are just the people that would pay for your product, if you were a little bit smarter about your whole marketing strategy.

[Blade01]

Enjoying life includes playing great online flight sims???

You must not be talking about WOP because it ain't even a sim, much less great one, but, you sure it's not the time to be getting out of your parent's basement??

My parents died 30 years ago prick,i sold their house & it had no basement. now you've made me stoop to the same base level it appears you can only achieve.

Your posts are allways derogatory & worthless, i will not reply to you or others of your pathetic ilk again.

This forum is clearly the "AssHats" department of WOP.

[Ancient Seraph]

It's really nice that the dev's / Yuplay mods are treating Steam, and the Steam forum community as the red-headed-stepchild (no offense to the ginger community). Whats really ironic, is that Steam is the far-superior way to reach potential customers.

I really have nothing against Yuplay, other than the way they charge for their non-torrent downloads....but to me, that's a deal breaker. Its a GOOD thing for Steam to have competition, but Yuplay is NOT going to challenge Steam for game sales.

---So, why not:
* wake up.....update the Steam version through Steam?
* offer "yuplay exclusive" content (aircraft) to Steam customers?
* sell DLC (expansion / booster packs) through the Steam store?

Do these simple things, and your game sales would increase dramatically, even with the activation limits. But then again, what do we know? We are just the people that would pay for your product, if you were a little bit smarter about your whole marketing strategy.

* All updates have been delivered to Steam, but they haven't done anything with it for now.
* They're not the first to promote their own system over a 3rd party's.
* I know the updates have been delivered to Steam, not 100% sure about the DLC's, but I can imagine they're included.

[Ancient Seraph]

(..)
No, I never said I was banned, as said a some people's comments where deleted and they complained here of not being able to post again.
I've seen some posts in which people actually cursed at the devs, of course they'll be deleted and banned.


Your mistake there, I never said they were coming forward with dedis as payware, *I asked* if they intend to do the same everything they want to add something major (IE, fixing the issue of poor online experience with dedis).

Roger.


This is really way behind us now, I no longer care about it, I still keep an eye on this game because I love flying games, simesques or arcadeish, I love the, but I will not endorse the actions of a company whose brand equals draconian drm.

If you want facts, look for them yourself, here on this forums, because they are not longer available at yuplay's which is our point, the freedom of speech level here is a little higher than there, but that's understandable, they use their forums as part of their business, it's their right.

I think this'll just end up in a 'I'm right' 'No I'm right' fight, until someone can actually bring something to the table.


If you care to take the time to look into other steam forums, for games coming from real "small time indie developers" you will find that that the back and forth communication is a refreshing activity among the trend of the big players who have forgotten that it is us who are putting the food on their tables.

My mistake, I generalized too much. WoP Steam forums.


Nobody has to convince me of anything, I know exactly what I want, a WOP fully integrated into steam, draconian DRMless and activation less.
Draconian.. well, that's just based on opinion and principle, as you well know. I don't have any problems with the activations, but well, I must be biased. As far as removing the DRM goes, I'm guessing this won't happen until Gaijin goes out of business, which might take a while. And I don't think WoP will ever be 'fully integrated' into Steam, simply because they'd have to change all the network code just for verification.

So basically you're waiting for those things to happen, and meanwhile keep an eye on the progress? In that case I really suggest the YuPlay or SimHQ forums, since they're more updated on these things.

[Ancient Seraph]

I don't really understand that line of thinking, i.e. that people can't be convinced and should be given up on.

These steam forums are exactly the product what people want to make them, saying that they are useless is just as much a reflection on the game and Gaijin as anything else. All you have to do to make these DRM threads (which as a rule I only contribute too, i.e. I don't start new ones off topic etc) diminish in views is to contribute some better content.

When an actual WoP question comes up then it's often ignored - where are the developers, and why is that my fault again?

You can try to demonise a couple of vocal contributers to the DRM debate but do you really think only 3 people alone have made the steam forum 'useless'? Have you counted how many 'no sale' comments there are in the DRM discussion thread, or are they 'paranoid' and 'not worth discussing with' either? I think you are giving a few of us a lot more credit than we deserve as an easy way out.

One potential conflict of interest is that Yuplay is too similar a service to Steam, i.e. on a few levels it competes with it. It's as if Gaijin decided to publish here but then only did it half-hearted.

I struggle to have sympathy for saying that 'they are just devs' - they are a business like anything else and should stand on their merit. You have an affiliation and fondness for them that is admirable (i.e. you're here, you're commenting for free that helps them) but in all serious, where are they again?

A lot of people here especially really like Steam, I know that sounds obvious and contrite, but Yuplay have to deal with that better if they want the game to work here.

You are a keen advocate for the game, but one thing to consider is that you might not be helping Gaijin - they've put their hands over their ears on this issue and using a core of enthusiasts to agree with them. If you really want to help them with Steam you should ask them to re-engage here rather than running away...

It's odd to see how the expectations for information from a company have changed. Only a few years ago you had to contact the company to get information on anything (through any communication means), or wait until an interview was published. Now people demand that the information is brought on their doorstep.
(Remember that the next part comes from me, not Gaijin)
The way I see it, Steam was used just as another method of distribution. The main focus is their own system, YuPlay. That's where they'll put most emphasis on, which we can all see. But there's no direct reason to engage in these forums. In WoP's case, what I think is that you can compare the way Steam's used with the way Direct2Drive is used: it's a distribution method only. D2D doesn't have any forums, for obvious reasons. For troubleshooting, you go to the developer's/publisher's forums. This isn't because companies don't care about D2D customers, but because they can't be everywhere all the time.
Steam happens to have forums, and some companies make use of that, that's great, but this doesn't mean all developers have to be active on them. I bet there's more Steam forums where no developer shows up.
Basically, if you want something from someone, you can shout really hard and hope they come to you, or just go over and ask.

[BasketCaseOIC]

* All updates have been delivered to Steam, but they haven't done anything with it for now.
* They're not the first to promote their own system over a 3rd party's.
* I know the updates have been delivered to Steam, not 100% sure about the DLC's, but I can imagine they're included.

That's great news! I will check back to see if the Steam version is updated. If that happens, and they actually sell their dlc through Steam, I will buy the game. They already added the Steam achievements feature, so I hope they continue to support the Steam version in more meaningful ways.

Again, I would not be posting here, if I did not want to see the game succeed. I was absolutely blown away be the demo, and DO want to buy the game!

I have already explained my aversion to Yuplay, so I won't go into that again. I may be dense or hard headed for feeling this way, but that's the way it is. The burden of making the game accessible falls on Gaijin.

Hopefully the devs can use of these comments / suggestions as a way to sell more copies, or make suggestion to improve the Yuplay client.

Thanks again for the update, it is appreciated

[fearlessfrog]

It's odd to see how the expectations for information from a company have changed. Only a few years ago you had to contact the company to get information on anything (through any communication means), or wait until an interview was published. Now people demand that the information is brought on their doorstep.
(Remember that the next part comes from me, not Gaijin)
The way I see it, Steam was used just as another method of distribution. The main focus is their own system, YuPlay. That's where they'll put most emphasis on, which we can all see. But there's no direct reason to engage in these forums. In WoP's case, what I think is that you can compare the way Steam's used with the way Direct2Drive is used: it's a distribution method only. D2D doesn't have any forums, for obvious reasons. For troubleshooting, you go to the developer's/publisher's forums. This isn't because companies don't care about D2D customers, but because they can't be everywhere all the time.
Steam happens to have forums, and some companies make use of that, that's great, but this doesn't mean all developers have to be active on them. I bet there's more Steam forums where no developer shows up.
Basically, if you want something from someone, you can shout really hard and hope they come to you, or just go over and ask.

I think we're getting closer to why this game has been received poorly on Steam. It's not really the game (which seems like a really nice looking flight game) but Gaijin's whole strategy of Yuplay as a sort of Russian Steam thing.

If they were EA then they could probably justify doing their own 'steam', and just using this as a bytes to download distribution system, but, as you've pointed out a few times, they aren't anything like EA - they're a very small outfit that are struggling to break even and not sure how to cope with customers, patches and running an online system.

A lot of the feedback in the DRM thread was also about people buying here on Steam and then finding out it's not really a Steam game. On reflection, I bet Valve probably regret taking the title as it reflects badly on both parties.

I'm personally saddened, as I wanted more PC flight sims and this business move by Gaijin has probably spelled the end of their involvement in the genre.

One thing you might not be appreciating Ancient (Mr Seraph?) :) is that there are many indie / small companies like Gaijin that have used Steam to grow their community and companies - for small companies it is extremely unusual not to have developer or developer appointed mods here on the forums.

Also, and I know this is uncomfortable for some, especially in the older 'I want a physical disk' flight sim community, but I am happier just to have Steam as my single games platform/distribution system. I don't want to keep credit cards, patching info, and tracking various accounts amongst various online systems. Steam works because there are excellent at what they do, Gaijin trying to compete with Yuplay is just the wrong thing to concentrate their (small but productive) dev efforts too.

I.e TL;DR - Concentrate on making a good PC flight sim, stop wasting time trying to rewrite Steam and then acting surprised when it doesn't sell well...

[fearlessfrog]

My parents died 30 years ago prick,i sold their house & it had no basement. now you've made me stoop to the same base level it appears you can only achieve.

Your posts are allways derogatory & worthless, i will not reply to you or others of your pathetic ilk again.

This forum is clearly the "special needs" department of WOP.

Probably best to review the forums rules and infractions stuff, if you are unhappy with a post you can report it. Info here:

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=351

Insulting someone back isn't constructive. As a parent of a 'special needs' child I find your reply quite offensive. Please consider editing it.

[oto niel]

Probably best to review the forums rules and infractions stuff, if you are unhappy with a post you can report it. Info here:

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=351

Insulting someone back isn't constructive...

whoa whoa!! stop it there, there were no insults in my original post, he is not insulting me "back", it's totally unilateral.

[Blade01]

Probably best to review the forums rules and infractions stuff, if you are unhappy with a post you can report it. Info here:

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=351

Insulting someone back isn't constructive. As a parent of a 'special needs' child I find your reply quite offensive. Please consider editing it.

Edited out of respect,shame others here have none.

[fearlessfrog]

whoa whoa!! stop it there, there were no insults in my original post, he is not insulting me "back", it's totally unilateral.

Apologies Oto then if that's the case - I was just trying to stop us losing more members of this forum due to heated arguments...

[fearlessfrog]

Edited out of respect,shame others here have none.

Thank you.

[oto niel]

Apologies Oto then if that's the case - I was just trying to stop us losing more members of this forum due to heated arguments...

no need for apologies fearless :) .

[Ancient Seraph]

I think we're getting closer to why this game has been received poorly on Steam. It's not really the game (which seems like a really nice looking flight game) but Gaijin's whole strategy of Yuplay as a sort of Russian Steam thing.

If they were EA then they could probably justify doing their own 'steam', and just using this as a bytes to download distribution system, but, as you've pointed out a few times, they aren't anything like EA - they're a very small outfit that are struggling to break even and not sure how to cope with customers, patches and running an online system.

A lot of the feedback in the DRM thread was also about people buying here on Steam and then finding out it's not really a Steam game. On reflection, I bet Valve probably regret taking the title as it reflects badly on both parties.

I'm personally saddened, as I wanted more PC flight sims and this business move by Gaijin has probably spelled the end of their involvement in the genre.

One thing you might not be appreciating Ancient (Mr Seraph?) :) is that there are many indie / small companies like Gaijin that have used Steam to grow their community and companies - for small companies it is extremely unusual not to have developer or developer appointed mods here on the forums.

Also, and I know this is uncomfortable for some, especially in the older 'I want a physical disk' flight sim community, but I am happier just to have Steam as my single games platform/distribution system. I don't want to keep credit cards, patching info, and tracking various accounts amongst various online systems. Steam works because there are excellent at what they do, Gaijin trying to compete with Yuplay is just the wrong thing to concentrate their (small but productive) dev efforts too.

I.e TL;DR - Concentrate on making a good PC flight sim, stop wasting time trying to rewrite Steam and then acting surprised when it doesn't sell well...

The YuPlay system was already up and running when WoP came out (WoP isn't their only game). You suggested they'd use Steam only as a distribution method, with just Steam DRM, and say that's a smart move marketing-wise. However, if they'd done that, they wouldn't have been able to publish the DVDs. Steam would be the only distributor, and having just one other company sell your game isn't usually the best way to go. Since they're the only distribution method, they can set whatever price they like (if this is how Steam works, I'm not sure about that, don't pin me on it if Steam can only set prices suggested by the devs/publishers.). Using their own system, with a general DRM, they can choose more ways to distribute the game, which doesn't seem like that bad of a move.
As explained before (although I'm not sure on this forum as well) having a Steam DRM only version, and an 'other' version would split the player database, which would be a very bad move.

[fearlessfrog]

The YuPlay system was already up and running when WoP came out (WoP isn't their only game). You suggested they'd use Steam only as a distribution method, with just Steam DRM, and say that's a smart move marketing-wise. However, if they'd done that, they wouldn't have been able to publish the DVDs. Steam would be the only distributor, and having just one other company sell your game isn't usually the best way to go. Since they're the only distribution method, they can set whatever price they like (if this is how Steam works, I'm not sure about that, don't pin me on it if Steam can only set prices suggested by the devs/publishers.). Using their own system, with a general DRM, they can choose more ways to distribute the game, which doesn't seem like that bad of a move.
As explained before (although I'm not sure on this forum as well) having a Steam DRM only version, and an 'other' version would split the player database, which would be a very bad move.

I got the impression the DVD release were a bit of a recent move, i.e. they led with YuPlay, probably expecting more success - I honestly don't know.

(Edit: Also, just to add, many (many) developers here do sell a disk AND steam version - just because it's steam doesn't mean no DVD, plus on the DVD you can add any Frontline/Starforce DRM you like as there is a better alternative in Steam for those that care about that stuff).

I think (although don't know for sure) that a developer can set their own prices for their games on Steam, but what is probably more unpopular is the 'cut' percentage that Steam takes - I've heard it's high (but still low compared to a bricks shop/retail). My premise is that cut in this case would probably be worth it for sheer audience size rather than using your own.

One thing to consider is that splitting the player base would be bad, but you're probably giving far too much emphasis to YuPlay on actually being able to realistically compete, i.e. take a look at these numbers:

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

At the time of writing there are 2,418,806 concurrent Steam users. There are about 5 million steam users worldside. How many people are playing WoP online at the moment? To make it fairer, albeit to a AAA title (so not that fair :) ), there are about 100,000 people online with Steam now playing CoD:MW2 (there's even about 67,000 still playing the CounterStrike that came out in 2000(!) - why?!)

I think WoP had a potential to be a 'cross-over' title to a lot of people here on Steam, i.e. a niche genre flight sim but a very (very) attractive and playable one. While it's not really my thing, I can see the arcade mode and various more 'fun' elements being able to create a large player base here. Using the full Steam platform (friends, find servers, more acheivements, early stress on MP/CooP rather than SP, no activation counts based DRM :) etc etc) might have really helped that.

I know a lot of this is theoretical, and now on retrospect, so I guess I am just frustrated to see (what I personally think) have been mistakes on Gaijins part lose the opportunity of a successful PC flight sim franchise on the platform I prefer. They seem over-stretched too thin, made early strategic errors on how hard this all is, and will now (unfortunately) start blaming their customer base rather than looking in the mirror...

[Ancient Seraph]

I got the impression the DVD release were a bit of a recent move, i.e. they led with YuPlay, probably expecting more success - I honestly don't know.

(Edit: Also, just to add, many (many) developers here do sell a disk AND steam version - just because it's steam doesn't mean no DVD, plus on the DVD you can add any Frontline/Starforce DRM you like as there is a better alternative in Steam for those that care about that stuff).

I think (although don't know for sure) that a developer can set their own prices for their games on Steam, but what is probably more unpopular is the 'cut' percentage that Steam takes - I've heard it's high (but still low compared to a bricks shop/retail). My premise is that cut in this case would probably be worth it for sheer audience size rather than using your own.

One thing to consider is that splitting the player base would be bad, but you're probably giving far too much emphasis to YuPlay on actually being able to realistically compete, i.e. take a look at these numbers:

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

At the time of writing there are 2,418,806 concurrent Steam users. There are about 5 million steam users worldside. How many people are playing WoP online at the moment? To make it fairer, albeit to a AAA title (so not that fair :) ), there are about 100,000 people online with Steam now playing CoD:MW2 (there's even about 67,000 still playing the CounterStrike that came out in 2000(!) - why?!)

I think WoP had a potential to be a 'cross-over' title to a lot of people here on Steam, i.e. a niche genre flight sim but a very (very) attractive and playable one. While it's not really my thing, I can see the arcade mode and various more 'fun' elements being able to create a large player base here. Using the full Steam platform (friends, find servers, more acheivements, early stress on MP/CooP rather than SP, no activation counts based DRM :) etc etc) might have really helped that.

I know a lot of this is theoretical, and now on retrospect, so I guess I am just frustrated to see (what I personally think) have been mistakes on Gaijins part lose the opportunity of a successful PC flight sim franchise on the platform I prefer. They seem over-stretched too thin, made early strategic errors on how hard this all is, and will now (unfortunately) start blaming their customer base rather than looking in the mirror...
To be honest, I don't want to engage in this kind of discussion. Neither of us can determine what would bring in most customers. Steam might have more players online at a given time, but that doesn't mean every player checks out every recent game (I, for example, would only use Steam if I had to, and just ignore the whole site/forums/everything. Luckily I haven't had to use it yet. My opinion). Reviews have been posted on various sites, which lead people to YuPlay. In conclusion, don't start this discussion, since you and I both don't have the info to actually come up with something useful. I know you're smart enough to understand.
I explained the whole Steam-DRM only problem, and I stick with my point: having the option for more distributors is better in any case. Again, I don't think you're a marketing professional, nor am I, so a discussion about this would be very subjective, i.e. not have any real outcome.
In retrospective, I think you see the same point, and just have to accept the path Gaijin has chosen. I think I can safely say Steam-only will never come, and DRM removal might come at a certain point, although I wouldn't hold my breath.

[fearlessfrog]

To be honest, I don't want to engage in this kind of discussion. Neither of us can determine what would bring in most customers. Steam might have more players online at a given time, but that doesn't mean every player checks out every recent game (I, for example, would only use Steam if I had to, and just ignore the whole site/forums/everything. Luckily I haven't had to use it yet. My opinion). Reviews have been posted on various sites, which lead people to YuPlay. In conclusion, don't start this discussion, since you and I both don't have the info to actually come up with something useful. I know you're smart enough to understand.
I explained the whole Steam-DRM only problem, and I stick with my point: having the option for more distributors is better in any case. Again, I don't think you're a marketing professional, nor am I, so a discussion about this would be very subjective, i.e. not have any real outcome.
In retrospective, I think you see the same point, and just have to accept the path Gaijin has chosen. I think I can safely say Steam-only will never come, and DRM removal might come at a certain point, although I wouldn't hold my breath.

Good response. You are correct in that we can't really know, and this is just speculation, but, well 'Welcome to the Internet' :)

I still maintain that a huge network like Steam, that properly pushed/integrated a title would actually be more successful than a new Russian network (especially for existing Valve title owners, who always use Steam). I think there is a thirst for a decent PC flight sim that looks good (besides waiting for SoW forever...).

Also, for this bit

(I, for example, would only use Steam if I had to, and just ignore the whole site/forums/everything. Luckily I haven't had to use it yet. My opinion

..could you expand on that please, as I'm struggling to see why you'd prefer YuPlay over Steam - is it merely a 'competition is good thing, or has Steam done something wrong for you, or is it something Yuplay has that you think would benefit Steam?

Again, I don't think you're a marketing professional, nor am I, so a discussion about this would be very subjective, i.e. not have any real outcome.

:) I think a lot of people would be pretty shocked here to find out what I do for a living, but in the capacity of contributing to this forum I'm just a plain ol potential customer...

[Ancient Seraph]

(...)
..could you expand on that please, as I'm struggling to see why you'd prefer YuPlay over Steam - is it merely a 'competition is good thing, or has Steam done something wrong for you, or is it something Yuplay has that you think would benefit Steam?
I was just referring to your numbers about players. Even though Steam has more members, that doesn't necessarily mean every member checks out all recent games and will be a potential buyer. In this case, I think advertisement on the right sites, with some reviews here and there does a way better job. But, Gaijin has never been one to advertise much..
As for my opinion about Steam: had a bad experience a long while ago, so I never really liked it. I'm sure they fixed it by now though. Luckily for me, I don't have to struggle with any principles regarding these programs running on my computer. I honestly don't care whether I use Steam or YuPlay. I don't have any trust issues in general, and especially with Gaijin since it published at least one 360 game. Too much effort for just a scam :). But, as I said, I don't care one way or the other. YuPlay works just fine, and I heard it takes up even less resources on the computer than Steam (although I personally think that both programs are so low I don't really care). All in all, I'm quite a flexible customer.


:) I think a lot of people would be pretty shocked here to find out what I do for a living, but in the capacity of contributing to this forum I'm just a plain ol potential customer...
Well, apologies if I was wrong in assuming (what are the odds) ;). If you feel a relevant professional opinion could help the discussion, feel free to add it. I might not give in automatically though ¬¬.

[BasketCaseOIC]

Ancient Seraph, the number of people that simply sign in to Steam on a regular basis is HUGE. Whenever a new game is released, it is splashed across the store page for days at a time. There is also additional advertisement for the product when an update or dlc is released, simply by this being listed on the main page. Quite honestly, having a game sold on Steam is probably one of the BEST forms of advertisement you can have. This is why it would benefit Gaijin to update their game / sell dlc through the Steam store. I know you said that Steam is sitting on the updates, so hopefully we won't be waiting much longer.

Gaijin is fortunate to have their game listed on Steam, regardless of anyone's past experience with the service. Honestly, WOP is one of the few GREAT games sold on the Yuplay site....so probably not a huge amount of traffic there for the game sales to skyrocket.

[fearlessfrog]

Ancient Seraph, the number of people that simply sign in to Steam on a regular basis is HUGE. Whenever a new game is released, it is splashed across the store page for days at a time. There is also additional advertisement for the product when an update or dlc is released, simply by this being listed on the main page. Quite honestly, having a game sold on Steam is probably one of the BEST forms of advertisement you can have. This is why it would benefit Gaijin to update their game / sell dlc through the Steam store. I know you said that Steam is sitting on the updates, so hopefully we won't be waiting much longer.

Gaijin is fortunate to have their game listed on Steam, regardless of anyone's past experience with the service. Honestly, WOP is one of the few GREAT games sold on the Yuplay site....so probably not a huge amount of traffic there for the game sales to skyrocket.

I agree with that, and one thing to add: Steam users are almost certainly more sensitive about DRM than most other player bases, as in, a lot of people use Steam exactly because of the type of DRM it uses. I would suspect that Steam buyers are probably more DRM aware and not oblivious to the various choices (i.e. they check forums, wait for Steam sales, are more technical than console owners in general)

It shouldn't be a shock to anyone that putting an activation based DRM new title here would cause a reaction that leads to poor sales.

Edit: Also, to add. One way I tend to buy games here and that I like is that Steam shows me what my friends have bought and are playing, i.e. if I fancy a MP game it's easy to see who's playing what and where. It's stuff like this that makes it more than a bits & bytes download service...

See more discussion here on how Steam represents a '3rd way' over what we have and people just stealing games...

http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/boyn9/okay_so_we_all_hate_drm_but_what_would_you_do_if/

[milkweg]

DRM hurt sales but also the fact it doesn't cater enough to the hardcore simmers. Most people into flight sims want realism and not arcade flight sims. Rise of Flight had even worse DRM (internet connection required for SP) and they are doing ok, and that is because it is hardcore and not arcade.

I bought Black Shark, FC and FC2 from Eagly Dynamics and they use the same DRM as WoP is using but I haven't bought WoP purely because I don't think it has the features I require from a flight sim.

[fearlessfrog]

DRM hurt sales but also the fact it doesn't cater enough to the hardcore simmers. Most people into flight sims want realism and not arcade flight sims. Rise of Flight had even worse DRM (internet connection required for SP) and they are doing ok, and that is because it is hardcore and not arcade.

I bought Black Shark, FC and FC2 from Eagly Dynamics and they use the same DRM as WoP is using but I haven't bought WoP purely because I don't think it has the features I require from a flight sim.

Yep, that's true. From what I saw in the demo it's looks amazing, but it's not really the FM / weapons modelling of something that I'd really 'get in to'.

The ideal thing would have been it sold a lot here (perhaps people that liked flying in BF2 etc), that then enabled the developers to flush it out more i.e. have a Sim vs Arcade path where both got better. A SDK path would have been ok too, i.e. the number of ARMA and IL2 mods/conversions is staggering and 'tune' games towards target audiences better.

What might happen now is they stall in the middle ground of initially trying to pitch it at the casual flyer but now trying to add the core sim stuff later (i.e. the hardcore fan-base are the ones that are left and will shout loudest, so the devs start the mistaken path of chasing their tails of those (small) amount of dollars on paid DLC).

PS Bit off-topic but how's FC2? I thought they were doing a DCS A10 next?

[Guat]

* All updates have been delivered to Steam, but they haven't done anything with it for now.
* They're not the first to promote their own system over a 3rd party's.
* I know the updates have been delivered to Steam, not 100% sure about the DLC's, but I can imagine they're included.

Funny thing about issue number two is that Steam users can have access to all the "exclusive" planes by just following one easy step that even the developers explained on the Yuplay forums.

[Chris_Ihao]

Omg. I almost cant believe it. For you whom it may concern, you've been going on and on and on about the same things since the games release now. Lol. Its like I stepped into a time machine and went back 3 months when checking out these forums again.

Never seen a game get so much attention by so many haters before. Why not spend the rest of your lives doing something more positive than hanging out on forums of games you are determined not to play? Just a suggestion.

[Sgt Jigglebelly]

Omg. I almost cant believe it. For you whom it may concern, you've been going on and on and on about the same things since the games release now. Lol. Its like I stepped into a time machine and went back 3 months when checking out these forums again.

Never seen a game get so much attention by so many haters before. Why not spend the rest of your lives doing something more positive than hanging out on forums of games you are determined not to play? Just a suggestion.

I have to agree with this stance... but at the same time, the tears just taste so sweet!!! :p :D

[fearlessfrog]

I have to agree with this stance... but at the same time, the tears just taste so sweet!!! :p :D

Agreed - it's a lot of fun! :)

PS How's the game selling - got lots of people to play with? Oh....

[fearlessfrog]

Omg. I almost cant believe it. For you whom it may concern, you've been going on and on and on about the same things since the games release now. Lol. Its like I stepped into a time machine and went back 3 months when checking out these forums again.

Never seen a game get so much attention by so many haters before. Why not spend the rest of your lives doing something more positive than hanging out on forums of games you are determined not to play? Just a suggestion.

From a commercial stand-point the DRM discussions have been quite successful here, in that Gaijin have admitted to not even breaking even as yet, and have been reduced to charging for small feature updates. Multiplayer is now pretty much dead too isn't it? (I don't know, as I won't buy the game in protest to the 3 activation limit former-Starforce team DRM :) )

Just think, if the players that actually didn't mind the DRM had contributed to the community here in a positive way (rather than getting banned a lot of the time) then the game could have made it.

Such a shame, as it's a nice looking arcade shooter for those who have trouble with IL-2's FM and over complex weapons/tactics, i.e. a nice PC niche title for the console generation...

[Sgt Jigglebelly]

got lots of people to play with? Oh....

mmmmmm sweetness, keep them coming

[fearlessfrog]

mmmmmm sweetness, keep them coming

Um, ok then, let me try a few more for fun :)

- I understand you spending a lot of time here, the yuplay forums do seem to be emptying out. Apart from the 'How I Got Banned From Steam' most of the discussion seem to have settled down to 'Where is Everybody?'

- How many activations do you have left? Is it more fun waiting for an empty multiplayer P2P game or just emailing yuplay to grovel and beg for a few more times to play the game? Try not to run out on a weekend though...

- I've heard the rumor that Wings of Pay is getting Horse Armour soon - is it true? If you really supported the poor suffering developer then be truly joyous about the $40 yuplay exclusive DLC price. PS It's already downloaded in the last patch, just pay to unlock it.

- Dedicated Servers, mission editors, flight models, weapons that aren't infinite, being able to turn both left and right on your Xbox Controller are COMING REALLY SOON, HONESTLY. If you deeply cared for the game you'd buy 15 copies of the Horse Armour to help sponsor the desperate needy developers. To deny them this revenue shows how mean a fan-base you really are.

- During the Fifa 2010 World Cup the Yuplay client will be used to transmit live coverage of all games via Bittorrent. This will help off-set development costs and help pay the foodstamps for the upcoming 'Horse Armour 2 - Co-op Edition with Real Axis Flags We Must Have'.

- 'Horse Armour 3 - Fixes for Horse Armour 2' should be only $30 and include the left wing of an Italian bi-plane as bonus content. Unfortunately due to DRM server problems the yuplay distribution method will have to be the developer driving around to each customers house to type a code into their computer keyboard. You are expected to make a hot dinner for the developer and let them before a quick house search for illegal materials first. Anyone thinking this unreasonable is not truly a WoP fan, and probably has something to hide.

- After careful review Wings of Pay has decided to take the franchise in a new direction after 'HA-3'. Fisher Price toys will scoop up the IP and release a 'Toddler Tykes Pretty Playthings' conversion. You'll use the full CH controllers setup to make pretty patterns. Barney the Dinosaur will only be $30 DLC exclusively from yuplay. Forum members celebrate with the statement 'This is far too inexpensive, and will surely now mean the mission editors is next!!!'

:)

[Guat]

Um, ok then, let me try a few more for fun :)

- I understand you spending a lot of time here, the yuplay forums do seem to be emptying out. Apart from the 'How I Got Banned From Steam' most of the discussion seem to have settled down to 'Where is Everybody?'

I honestly find your condescending aggressive/passive behavior amusing at best. I get a good chuckle once a week when you post unfounded comments about a game you have admitted you don't own, a system you don't use and a forum you obviously don't post.

In some place you would be called a troll for that reason alone, but you sugar coat your insinuations pretty well.

You once asked why people who can contribute into building a WoP Steam community don't post here? Well, if you still want to know, it's because the condescending aggressive/passive behavior of the few like you.

Can i ask you a serious question, though? Apart from the DRM dilemma your living in, is there anything else you would like to talk or know about WoP?

[fearlessfrog]

I honestly find your condescending aggressive/passive behavior amusing at best. I get a good chuckle once a week when you post unfounded comments about a game you have admitted you don't own, a system you don't use and a forum you obviously don't post.

In some place you would be called a troll for that reason alone, but you sugar coat your insinuations pretty well.

You once asked why people who can contribute into building a WoP Steam community don't post here? Well, if you still want to know, it's because the condescending aggressive/passive behavior of the few like you.

Can i ask you a serious question, though? Apart from the DRM dilemma your living in, is there anything else you would like to talk or know about WoP?

Hi Gaut!

You're taking this all far too seriously, as in, the previous reply was just a joke reply to Sgt JigglyBelly. It won't help getting offensive, calling people trolls just because you don't agree with them or accusing them of being 'aggressive'. A sense of humor is important, especially on-line. Relax! :)

Please take this time to review the forum rules and guidelines:
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=351

As you seem to be an avid reader rather than contributor here, you do, unfortunately, lay down some very serious accusations: Could you please point out some of these 'unfounded comments' please? (ignoring the Horse Armour joke for a bit please :) ). Links would be ideal.

As for topic of WoP I'd like to discuss, as I rule I just reply when the subject is relevant, as in either on the DRM thread or when some aspect of that comes up. Please don't feel you have to wait for me though, i.e. go ahead and start.

You seem to be used to forums where you can ban people for disagreeing with you (i.e. when they are 'condescending' to you). Steam isn't those types of forums luckily. Please take a look at the thread here, where I make some suggestions on how to improve the community:

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13756046#post13756046

Perhaps you could apply to be this games moderator here? This could be the sort of game to be turned around, even at this late stage, by active community involvement on this forum and then perhaps even a late surprise of the 3 limit activation being removed in a patch! I'm always the optimist, and it's further motivation to keep active here...

I'll see you in the skies soon, I hope!!

[Guat]

Thanks for proving my point.

And FYI, I've been a Steam member since October 23 2003, so please don't patronize me.

[fearlessfrog]

Thanks for proving my point.

And FYI, I've been a Steam member since October 23 2003, so please don't patronize me.


What's your point again? I'm honestly not sure.

PS Dont you owe me some links or have you been making unmerited accusations since October 23 2003?

:)

[Blade01]

What's your point again? I'm honestly not sure.

PS Dont you owe me some links or have you been making unmerited accusations since October 23 2003?

:)

Fail Troll, fails.

[Ancient Seraph]

Thanks for proving my point.

And FYI, I've been a Steam member since October 23 2003, so please don't patronize me.

Fail Troll, fails.
Wow..
Guys, fearlessfrog doesn't like WoP for now (DRM, style, whatever, doesn't matter) and he shows it. Whatever reason he has for posting negative comments on WoP on this forum while he doens't even own the game, it doesn't really matter. He's posting what he thinks about WoP/Gaijin, and it's his right. I haven't seen (uncalled for) personal attacks to other posters by him, and he's usually polite. He's not trolling, since he's not randomly posting crap in every thread.
Personal attacks by you guys won't do anything but start some flame war.
If you don't like what he's saying, or don't agree, tell him. Don't start 'I laugh at your ridiculous posts', since that won't make him go away, nor change his opinion. If you think he's said something ridiculous, quote it and correct him.
Learn to take some criticism. If it's false, correct him, if it's true, explain.

[Guat]

Ancient, it's me Sleazy. Believe me, i know what i'm saying about Fearless.

It's not about his opinion about Gaijin or the DRM, that is fine.

It's the fact that he like to sweet-bait people into confronting him with his passive/aggressive attitude and then he goes gloating around about the people who got banned in here, even threatening others about it.

That's not being polite, that's being condescending and i'm not playing his game by dignifying his responses with a reply when his post history speak for itself.

This is my last post in this thread anyhow, there is no constructive point to talk about here.

[BasketCaseOIC]

Fearlessfrog, have some rep for your insight and clarity. You do a good job of posting what's on my mind, and it saves me the trouble of getting flamed lol.

[fearlessfrog]

Wow..
Guys, fearlessfrog doesn't like WoP for now (DRM, style, whatever, doesn't matter) and he shows it. Whatever reason he has for posting negative comments on WoP on this forum while he doens't even own the game, it doesn't really matter. He's posting what he thinks about WoP/Gaijin, and it's his right. I haven't seen (uncalled for) personal attacks to other posters by him, and he's usually polite. He's not trolling, since he's not randomly posting crap in every thread.
Personal attacks by you guys won't do anything but start some flame war.
If you don't like what he's saying, or don't agree, tell him. Don't start 'I laugh at your ridiculous posts', since that won't make him go away, nor change his opinion. If you think he's said something ridiculous, quote it and correct him.
Learn to take some criticism. If it's false, correct him, if it's true, explain.

Thanks for that Ancient. I shouldn't have posted a reply here to be honest (I was joking regarding Sgt JellyBelly reply, and thought some of the jokes were actually ok, but it's inflammatory), and I'll refrain from now on.

My intention isn't to infruriate people, so I'll drop it.

[fearlessfrog]

Fearlessfrog, have some rep for your insight and clarity. You do a good job of posting what's on my mind, and it saves me the trouble of getting flamed lol.

Cheers - although in retrospect I should have kept quiet, or at least contained to replies in the DRM thread.

[fearlessfrog]

Ancient, it's me Sleazy. Believe me, i know what i'm saying about Fearless.

It's not about his opinion about Gaijin or the DRM, that is fine.

It's the fact that he like to sweet-bait people into confronting him with his passive/aggressive attitude and then he goes gloating around about the people who got banned in here, even threatening others about it.

That's not being polite, that's being condescending and i'm not playing his game by dignifying his responses with a reply when his post history speak for itself.

This is my last post in this thread anyhow, there is no constructive point to talk about here.

Gaut/Sleazy,

I think you and I have got off on the wrong foot, and you seem genuinely upset. I'm sorry you find what I wrote condescending, but I'm not sure what to change about that.

Listen to Ancient, in that I'm not trying to antagonise you. I probably shouldn't have posted replies to people on this thread, and if it matters to you then I do apologize.

You seem to blame me for more or less everything that happens on this forum, which I think is a little unfair.

I won't expect a reply to this, but we're bound to meet on Steam some more (you have a similar list of games to me!) so I don't want any bad feelings or animosity, especially just over a game and some fun on a forum...

[Sgt Jigglebelly]

Um, ok then, let me try a few more for fun :)

- I understand you spending a lot of time here, the yuplay forums do seem to be emptying out. Apart from the 'How I Got Banned From Steam' most of the discussion seem to have settled down to 'Where is Everybody?'

- How many activations do you have left? Is it more fun waiting for an empty multiplayer P2P game or just emailing yuplay to grovel and beg for a few more times to play the game? Try not to run out on a weekend though...

play with my brother, wings of luftwaffe, good fun :)
as well as trying to perform some flight stunts with him and friends, so no troubles there

no trouble with activations either - i installed it, it plays, and has been playing fine ever since then :)

the rest of your comment was i guess meant to be funny but... you just aren't that funny bro, sorry :(

[fearlessfrog]

play with my brother, wings of luftwaffe, good fun :)
as well as trying to perform some flight stunts with him and friends, so no troubles there

no trouble with activations either - i installed it, it plays, and has been playing fine ever since then :)

the rest of your comment was i guess meant to be funny but... you just aren't that funny bro, sorry :(

Yep, great feedback - thanks.

PS Nice to see someone with a sense of humor - cheers!

:)