Water should pass through Portals in Portal 2

[SpectralJulian]

Could create some interesting puzzles.

And it's about time games had water physics.

[GrownupLawolf]

Could create some interesting puzzles.

And it's about time games had water physics.

If paint can pass through (and I'm pretty sure it will, according to the GI article), I'm sure that water also will.

[The Mayor]

Sorry, dynamic fluid physics are still too advanced.

Unless you want to play Portal 2: Slideshow, that is.

[GrownupLawolf]

Sorry, dynamic fluid physics are still too advanced.

Unless you want to play Portal 2: Slideshow, that is.

Ever seen the nVidia PhysX demos?
Especially the one with the dynamic fluid physics?
I mean the one which plays at a decent 40FPS?

It shows it's possible. Maybe Valve finds (or has already found) a way to implement dynamic fluid physics into Portal 2.

[TheRyanx2]

That would be cool but yeah, I really doubt thats gonna happen. especially in the source engine...

[Moose Muscles]

It would be realistic to expect that

[Swordsman]

Also it's possible on source

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTugivcG64Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3fF6uiAyFk&feature=related

dunno if that's the correct video, it doesn't open to me but i saw a hl2 video with dynamic water, i think it's that one

[wade]

Ever seen the nVidia PhysX demos?
Especially the one with the dynamic fluid physics?
I mean the one which plays at a decent 40FPS?

It shows it's possible. Maybe Valve finds (or has already found) a way to implement dynamic fluid physics into Portal 2.

The demo may run at 40FPS, but keep in mind that your GPU will already have to handle rendering a game on top of that, and that not everyone has a physx gpu. It seems unlikely that dynamic fluids would be made a key gameplay element.

However they still have to put paint through portals somehow, I suppose we'll just have to wait and see what they've done. They may indeed surprise us with something nifty.

I'd like to see them use some of the new Open CL stuff from Havok.

[Moose Muscles]

If your GPU can handle the Hard Rain water from L4D2 you can see that it has already laid some decent foundation. I'm sure that dynamic fluid could make its way here.

But then again: 1) I'm an optimist and 2)I never crudely write anything off until fully proven false.

[JayShadow]

It seems unlikely that dynamic fluids would be made a key gameplay element.That pretty much sums it up there. Doesn't matter if something is technically possible on some people's hardware. It would have to be possible on everyone's hardware for something gameplay related to be included.

I assume paint will just be a combination of particle effect and decals. Pretty much the same as TAG but more refined.

[Panikarn]

Also it's possible on source

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTugivcG64Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3fF6uiAyFk&feature=related

dunno if that's the correct video, it doesn't open to me but i saw a hl2 video with dynamic water, i think it's that one

Those are the right vids.

To be honest the fluid doesn't look very realistic though, and looks like utter crap up close. I'd honestly rather have it left out, unless it looks and behaves better.

[Claybay1]

Also it's possible on source

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTugivcG64Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3fF6uiAyFk&feature=related

dunno if that's the correct video, it doesn't open to me but i saw a hl2 video with dynamic water, i think it's that one
But thats a PARTICLE effect and is not real physics.

[Monshroud]

This probably won't work/happen.

1> Shooting a portal beam into a body of water would scatter the energy. Not to mention energy dissipation in water. Now if we are talking about an empty pool, shoot portal, fill pool, you still have a bunch of technical issues.

2> Said technical issues are based on the dynamics of the water. The spray of water you see is one thing from a dynamic POV. Notice how the water level is not rising as more water is being added into a pool? (as displayed in the youtube video that was linked) You are talking a HUGE amount of code to compensate for the dynamic placement of portals, logic to determine rate of flow and mass of flow depending on the location of a portal in relation to the water.

It's not as easy as it would sound, it's a huge graphical and engine based technology so I wouldn't really count on it.

[Zekiran]

Of course it works. (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_9vgJ1nwu_xA/R7uJjIAMMYI/AAAAAAAAAKA/0pUN44RQUMM/s400/PORTAL+COFFEE+CUP.jpg) ;)

[wade]

But thats a PARTICLE effect and is not real physics.

Dynamic water basically amounts to a particle effect. It's like if you have a room full of balls, you just replace the balls with particles and put a dynamic mesh on top to make it look like one body of water. The particles then react to whatever touches them so that objects can displace the water.

So the video is a bit closer than you might think, it's just a bit crude, and lacks the dynamic mesh.

[Krazy Bomb]

Dynamic water basically amounts to a particle effect. It's like if you have a room full of balls, you just replace the balls with particles and put a dynamic mesh on top to make it look like one body of water. The particles then react to whatever touches them so that objects can displace the water.

So the video is a bit closer than you might think, it's just a bit crude, and lacks the dynamic mesh.

True, and it could work in a simpler way by using a water rise/lower trigger when particles are formed /dissapate near such a trigger to Simulate* dynamic water.

[Vlad211]

I think it'll work because the Source Engine uses the Havok physics engine to simulate all the physics. I believe that it can be done because Havok is the leading physics program used for development in software and games.

[Vlad211]

Of course it works. (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_9vgJ1nwu_xA/R7uJjIAMMYI/AAAAAAAAAKA/0pUN44RQUMM/s400/PORTAL+COFFEE+CUP.jpg) ;)
Awesome picture!

[Zekiran]

Awesome picture!

Wish I could take credit for it, but I can't :) It's been around almost as long as Portal has :D

[conan96]

I got a weird image in my head that could work as an idea for co-op, If Valve could make water pass through portals, then you could pee on your friend through a portal. That would be an epic ''♥♥♥♥ you'' to your friend. ''Yeah, you suck... now i pee on you''

[Spectlaser]

Maybe in Source Engine 2.

Cryostasis has fluid dynamics using NVIDIA PhysX, but it's a very system intensive game. Seeing water dynamically flow around is very cool, though. Also, there's the problem that making PhysX an essential part of the gameplay would alienate ATI users. They'd have to find a solution that worked with both company's cards, like OpenCL.

[MADDOGGE]

I got a weird image in my head that could work as an idea for co-op, If Valve could make water pass through portals, then you could pee on your friend through a portal. That would be an epic ''♥♥♥♥ you'' to your friend. ''Yeah, you suck... now i pee on you''Ah no! No golden showers!:eek:

[Twilight Mage]

I think it'll take till standard x86 architechture before we start seeing serious applications of 3D liquid in games.

[trakmiro]

Ever seen the nVidia PhysX demos?
Especially the one with the dynamic fluid physics?
I mean the one which plays at a decent 40FPS?

It shows it's possible. Maybe Valve finds (or has already found) a way to implement dynamic fluid physics into Portal 2.

Hold up a second: if that guy can make dynamic water as an ADDON in gmod, can't valve do it too? :confused: Cuz if not, they seriously need to hire this guy. :p

[wade]

I think it'll take till standard x86 architechture before we start seeing serious applications of 3D liquid in games.

HydroEngine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HydroEngine)

You can see it in action here: Youtubes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiORN77g28Y&feature=related)

I'm not entirely sure on how the water works, but it's apparently dynamic. Nice to see it slowly creeping into games anyhow.

[Radical Pi]

Keep in mind that the idea of portal itself is VERY taxing on the system. I believe in the dev commentary that the physics of portal actually requires the system to maintain 2 physics environments: 1 for regular space, and 1 around the portal. So, you have 2 physics environments, now you want to add in the physics calculations for fluid dynamics, have it be able to cross between multiple physics systems, and on top of that have the already crazy rendering of portal have to deal with water?

Have fun with your quad-core GPU

[SpectralJulian]

Yeah, I didn't think it would really be super possible at this point in time. Maybe by Portal 3 and HL3.

[Some_weirdGuy]

It seems to me that people are thinking the water needs to be a lot more complex than it really needs to be.

Make it that you place the portal under water, than place the second portal above the hole or whatever. Just a simple generic water flowing effect could be places from the 'out portal', and then change the water levels in the two places. Doesn't sound hard to me.

It doesn't have to be all this fancy overly dynamic stuff.

[relaxeder]

If people think liquid physics are too advanced for Source then how do they think the paint feature will work? My guess is its gonna be the exact same idea. There will be some colorful particle effects made to look like splotches of airborne paint that can pass through portals and create paint splatter decals with special physics properties when they hit different surfaces. Just my guessing though.

It doesn't have to be volumetric water or anything like that -- they can probably rig up a really clever system that uses water particle effect emitters in streams and makes those streams obey the instructions of the physics engine (gravity, velocity, etc) and then lets them pass through user defined portals. Then if they wanted to get really creative they could come up with a way to tell the engine to begin to fill up the exit space with water. Currently water in the Source engine behaves as a static element thats pre-baked into the map geometry but perhaps they could design that to "accumulate" from the bottom up in different places to simulate actual water behavior? It would still be like a flat plane with water shaders inside and on top but the idea is you could make it "pool" anywhere the water stream fell. I don't know.

[relaxeder]

It seems to me that people are thinking the water needs to be a lot more complex than it really needs to be.

Make it that you place the portal under water, than place the second portal above the hole or whatever. Just a simple generic water flowing effect could be places from the 'out portal', and then change the water levels in the two places. Doesn't sound hard to me.

It doesn't have to be all this fancy overly dynamic stuff.
Yeah, what he said.

[Patcher]

Also it's possible on source

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTugivcG64Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3fF6uiAyFk&feature=related

dunno if that's the correct video, it doesn't open to me but i saw a hl2 video with dynamic water, i think it's that one

It's not water. It's just particles like smoke from chimneys in TF2. Only it's set to fly downwards and more quickly. It can't fill up anything. If there will be a dynamic water, I bet it will be in very small amounts.

[wade]

It seems to me that people are thinking the water needs to be a lot more complex than it really needs to be.

Make it that you place the portal under water, than place the second portal above the hole or whatever. Just a simple generic water flowing effect could be places from the 'out portal', and then change the water levels in the two places. Doesn't sound hard to me.

It doesn't have to be all this fancy overly dynamic stuff.

You're forgetting that people will intentionally try to do silly things, for your method to work you'd need to either try and think of all the possible things people might try to do with the water and cater for this, or restrict where they can place portals to make sure nothing weird can end up happening. One method over complicates an idea that's meant to simplify things, and the other basically removes the puzzle.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

[SpectralJulian]

It seems to me that people are thinking the water needs to be a lot more complex than it really needs to be.

Make it that you place the portal under water, than place the second portal above the hole or whatever. Just a simple generic water flowing effect could be places from the 'out portal', and then change the water levels in the two places. Doesn't sound hard to me.

It doesn't have to be all this fancy overly dynamic stuff.

Technically true, but as said above you'd need every possibility considered, and you'd have to have the rooms pretty simple

[MagicPickle]

that would be so awesome if you could move bodys of water, send it surging down a hallway knocking around those pesky sentury guns :D

[ruthlessebk]

Water going into a portal and filling a cup to make a seesaw thing so you can get to the other side? :D Sounds a bit advanced.

[Priami]

I think that Valve isn`t going to force players to buy super computer from Nasa for perfectly realistic liquid physics. At least i dont want anything really advanced stuff, because i`m sure that my computer cant handle it.

[TacticGamer470]

So, you put a portal in a flooded room. And thats suppose to solve some water-related puzzle?

[Huxley Bonham]

So, you put a portal in a flooded room. And thats suppose to solve some water-related puzzle?
READ THE THREAD BEFORE YOU POST.

We were just discussing how Valve could easily implement a STREAM of water, not anything that has to be Volumetric.

[AkujiTheSniper]

This could be a useful effect in the game. Maybe turrets get short-circuited in water?

[PowerfulGiraffe]

That would be cool if there was like a pool of water and you had to place a portal at the bottom, then place one on the wall somewhere else to get a long row of something wet. I think this would be even better if the portal gun had an active setting where one portal is stationary and the other is active so rather than shooting a portal, it would follow the reticle like a laser pointer and just not appear on surfaces that portal can't be on. Like in the situation I listed earlier, Just run your aimer across the wall and the water would fall through and get the row of objects wet, rather than shooting one portal, then another, and so on, you could just drag the portal.

[Jimmy T Malice]

I'm inclined to think that any water will be contained in basins of black tiles to stop this from happening.

[Manmade3]

1.Shoot Portal 1 into gulf oil spill
2.Shoot portal 2 into North Korea
3.????
4. Kim jong-il: FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

[ricky horror]

Of course it works. (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_9vgJ1nwu_xA/R7uJjIAMMYI/AAAAAAAAAKA/0pUN44RQUMM/s400/PORTAL+COFFEE+CUP.jpg) ;)

This was a triumph

[phenomenon579]

Note to all Idoits!
realtime fluids are impossible to handle in any custumer grade computer,That means all of you! No matter how fast your computer is, you will never get out of the consumer grade level! Nvidia Physics Fluid Demo is a DEMO showing it can do realtime water simulations in a VERY SMALL map. There are so many pollygons in the Fluid Demo with just the fluids alone to equal a LARGE MAP. Don't Speculate something just because you have seen the DEMO!

GOOD DAY!

[gamezombie]

If people think liquid physics are too advanced for Source then how do they think the paint feature will work?
The paint is most likely a jiggle boned blob and is coded so if it comes in contact with a wall that it should create 3 random blood decals recolored to be the same color as the paint

[Spectlaser]

The paint is just a fancy particle effect.

[trenmost]

The demo may run at 40FPS, but keep in mind that your GPU will already have to handle rendering a game on top of that, and that not everyone has a physx gpu. It seems unlikely that dynamic fluids would be made a key gameplay element.

However they still have to put paint through portals somehow, I suppose we'll just have to wait and see what they've done. They may indeed surprise us with something nifty.

I'd like to see them use some of the new Open CL stuff from Havok.

yes there are so many unused resources in OpenCL and DirectCompute. it would be great but consoles dont have it. mac has opencl so opencl would be easier to implement.
and even Radeon 4xxx series, geforce 8xxx series support it.

[trenmost]

however it would be good if you place a portal on a wall which is under water, then water would sink down until the water touches the portal, and on the other side of the portal water would rise, followed by this effect: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXobd5aNC88.

it wouldnt use much resources.

great puzzles could be done this way

[senne teddy]

What about this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeWt7CSg5Xc
And this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na3YP-uEnbc&feature=related
Its possible, but you would need a hardcore PC for it. And I don't think VALVe would want to do that, knowing that they still add DirectX 7 support.
Maybe in the time when everyone upgraded to 64 bits systems(I'm sure that wont take more than 5 years) and when the technology gets cheaper.

however it would be good if you place a portal on a wall which is under water, then water would sink down until the water touches the portal, and on the other side of the portal water would rise, followed by this effect: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXobd5aNC88.

it wouldnt use much resources.

Its an easy effect. It are just particles that can collide brushes and objects. The Gels work on a similar system.

[trenmost]

however it would be good if you place a portal on a wall which is under water, then water would sink down until the water touches the portal, and on the other side of the portal water would rise, followed by this effect: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXobd5aNC88.

it wouldnt use much resources.

great puzzles could be done this way

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/1578/portalwater.png

here is mah awesome concept

[trenmost]

Its possible, but you would need a hardcore PC for it. And I don't think VALVe would want to do that, knowing that they still add DirectX 7 support.


even portal (and the orange box games) dont have DX7 support, only DX8,8.1,9.0b and 9.0c

Left 4 dead (2008) and Left 4 dead 2 (2009) have only DX9.0b and DX9.0c support.

[senne teddy]

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/1578/portalwater.png

here is mah awesome concept
It isn't as easy as it looks, particles are points in space that show a nice texture. As they are points they cannot take volume and your plan wont work.

even portal (and the orange box games) dont have DX7 support, only DX8,8.1,9.0b and 9.0c

Left 4 dead (2008) and Left 4 dead 2 (2009) have only DX9.0b and DX9.0c support.

The original HL2 (before the update) had it. I did not know about OB and L4D Built.

[trenmost]

It isn't as easy as it looks, particles are points in space that show a nice texture. As they are points they cannot take volume and your plan wont work.


you didnt get the idea then: Water would be a water like in HL2, and like in that video, on the floor. That particle effect would be used only when water goes trough a portal. The water on the floor would still be the old water effect we know since HL2.

i updated the image: http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/1578/portalwater.png

"Dynamic water shown on that video" --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXobd5aNC88.
"HL2 like water" --> http://www.nvnews.net/articles/halflife2_gameplay/water.jpg


HL2 like water is cheap (for vga cards). That dynamic water wont hurt the performance much neither, and its used rarely (only when a portal transfers water).

so we get a cheap solution.

[skinlo]

There is no game out there that simulates real volumetric water I believe. All water simulations use shortcuts (like particle based effects) that pretend to be simulating the game.

[senne teddy]

you didnt get the idea then: Water would be a water like in HL2, and like in that video, on the floor. That particle effect would be used only when water goes trough a portal. The water on the floor would still be the old water effect we know since HL2.

i updated the image: http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/1578/portalwater.png

"Dynamic water shown on that video" --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXobd5aNC88.
"HL2 like water" --> http://www.nvnews.net/articles/halflife2_gameplay/water.jpg


HL2 like water is cheap (for vga cards). That dynamic water wont hurt the performance much neither, and its used rarely (only when a portal transfers water).

so we get a cheap solution.

I know you where trying to say that but I didn't had enough time at that moment because I had to go, but I'm back now to explain. Using this quote (on page 3)
You're forgetting that people will intentionally try to do silly things, for your method to work you'd need to either try and think of all the possible things people might try to do with the water and cater for this, or restrict where they can place portals to make sure nothing weird can end up happening. One method over complicates an idea that's meant to simplify things, and the other basically removes the puzzle.

[Mike_Bson]

Also it's possible on source

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTugivcG64Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3fF6uiAyFk&feature=related

dunno if that's the correct video, it doesn't open to me but i saw a hl2 video with dynamic water, i think it's that one

Man, did you see all that FPS? Neither did I.

[trenmost]

There is no game out there that simulates real volumetric water I believe. All water simulations use shortcuts (like particle based effects) that pretend to be simulating the game.

we dont need to simulate particle like water, only for the effect when water comes trough a portal. take a look at my plan. (post #53)