Way to milk the customers...

[Teraku]

...with all those paid DLC's. Not only are they clogging up the store page, it's very annoying if you already paid money for a game and need to pay to receive extra content. Way to go, EATrains.

[arizonachris]

Oh, no, here we go again. Another greifer that has nothing better to do that to complain to people that can't do anything about what you are complaining about.

This is a user to user Forum, DO YOU UNDERSTAND? WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT THIS! WHY DO YOU FEEL THE NEED TO HASSLE US?????????

I just don't get it. :mad:

[Freyar]

He's not hassling you, as far as I can tell. His attention is to the publisher and Steam itself. Some publisher/developers are active mind you.

On an interesting note.. If you were to buy all the DLC and Railworks at once, it would be somewhere around $618. Makes sense on a simulator level, I guess.

[james_2k]

He's not hassling you, as far as I can tell. His attention is to the publisher and Steam itself. Some publisher/developers are active mind you.

On an interesting note.. If you were to buy all the DLC and Railworks at once, it would be somewhere around $618. Makes sense on a simulator level, I guess.

i hope you arnt serious.

add up all the 'dlc' for flight sim x and it would be 10 times that. wake up and smell the simulator and dont be a pandering reactionary.

[buzz4567]

Oh, no, here we go again. Another greifer that has nothing better to do that to complain to people that can't do anything about what you are complaining about.

This is a user to user Forum, DO YOU UNDERSTAND? WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT THIS! WHY DO YOU FEEL THE NEED TO HASSLE US?????????

I just don't get it. :mad:

I agree. If you don't like don't buy it. There's a ton of free add on stuff and anyway why ♥♥♥♥♥ about it here. Write to the guys selling it.

Buzz

[Clemmo47]

I don't know another game where you can download a couple thousand trains,rolling stock,scenery all for just £3 a month. Just discover UK Train Sim site for instance. I must have collected every GWR train ever to run there for my South Devon Banks route.

[{Yotsuba}]

...with all those paid DLC's. Not only are they clogging up the store page, it's very annoying if you already paid money for a game and need to pay to receive extra content. Way to go, EATrains.

Never played a simulator have you? I really wish people would stop complaining about this DLC when they don't even understand it. At least research the differences between simulator DLC and that for MW2 for example.

[matthewt1501]

Traku, and Freyer.. your Troll posts have been reported.
Check out the other 1.7 billion posts on this topic, and crawl back your sandpit!

As we say in the UK..

You complete and utter Muppets!

Cheers.

Matt

[Zefar]

matthewt1501, I'm sorry but those two guys have valid opinions in this thread. None of them are doing any trolling either. It's more of that you are the one trolling by downright accusing them for it and tell them to crawl back to a sandpit.

[zm4r]

The new steam interface will solve this problem hopefully.

Just ignore the posts guys!

[matthewt1501]

matthewt1501, I'm sorry but those two guys have valid opinions in this thread. None of them are doing any trolling either. It's more of that you are the one trolling by downright accusing them for it and tell them to crawl back to a sandpit.

No they don't. There are a million other threads that finish the way this one will.
They only come here, type this crap in, just to get a response.

<SNIP>

Zefar note: They got a valid beef with the company, just accept it. If you still want to talk about it there is PM.

[zm4r]

I agree 100%.

It's said but it looks that we have no other choise.

Grtz

Erik

[seseorang]

very annoying if you already paid money for a game and need to pay to receive extra content.

NEED to pay? Who's twisting your arm to buy extra stuff? There is always free stuff available. On the main website for this simulator, they state that extra content may be provided by third parties. Thus, it's not all from Railsimulator.com

[FootplateManWSR]

matthewt1501, I'm sorry but those two guys have valid opinions in this thread. None of them are doing any trolling either. It's more of that you are the one trolling by downright accusing them for it and tell them to crawl back to a sandpit.

May as well lock now then.

[StarTux]

Huge free update incoming, copy and pasted from another other dedicated Sim forum and I hope Derek doesn't mind; posting here to show some people that the money made does go towards further development:

"The German Update

We are delighted to announce the forthcoming launch of a major new update for RailWorks. The ‘German Update’ is the first of three major updates happening over the spring/summer season and, as you have probably guessed, it chiefly adds to the existing German game features and assets as well as delivering a range of universal improvements to the simulator.

The update is automatic and is available from Wednesday night for all RailWorks users to enjoy.

Important information
Save Files are now binary so you will not be able to load old save files


New Stock

• BR 143 red
• BR 151 red Railon
• FAS 126 red DB-Cargo
• FALNS red DB-Cargo
• Knickkesselwagen grey VTG
• Passenger wagon red 1./2.Class
• Passenger wagon red 2. Class
• Passenger wagon red (front)
• BR52 steam loco
• Gbs254 brown (for BR52)
• Cooler Lbbhs (for BR52)
• Omm52 brown in 2 versions (for BR52)

Route improvements

• Upgraded models of stations and buildings on the Hagen – Siegen route


Improved Signal Functionality

• HP, KL and KS signalling systems
Schedules definable to the second for departure and arrival.
Exceeding the max. Signal, line or locomotive max. speed of more than 5 km/h will trigger an emergency braking.

• When passing a red signal, the scenario will end.
Simplified PZB functions with confirmation at pre-signals or announced low speed sectors.
H/V system with double or triple info signals.

• HL system of the DR with multiple info signals through combination of main and pre signals.

• KS system for modern routes with main, pre and multiple sector signals.

• Source Code for scripting and signalling of the German signalling will be made available to the end user in order to allow adding functionality to the German signalling system.


Other improvements and fixes

ScenarioProperties now have BlueprintSetPreLoad
Increased accuracy for Speed Limit reporting
Broken Consists now detected on scenario load
Latitude -32 and -38 fixed
Dumps now include version number
Asset Editor won't go fullscreen
Blueprint Editor open bug fix
Turntables and Traversers memory leakage fixed


For further information please contact:
Email: press@railsimulator.com

About RailSimulator.com
Producer of cutting edge simulations and modelling tools for enthusiasts and industry, RailSimulator.com is a British success story, seeing rapid growth and launching 25 products in just 9 months. The company is based in Chatham, with a development studio in Guildford."

[Freyar]

i hope you arnt serious.

add up all the 'dlc' for flight sim x and it would be 10 times that. wake up and smell the simulator and dont be a pandering reactionary.

As far as I recall, there's only one expansion/add-on developed by Microsoft for Flight Simulator X, resulting in a total of roughly $90.

They only come here, type this crap in, just to get a response.

I only responded to a thread I noticed that had the most recent activity regarding the subject I wanted to discuss. Whether you view it as "trolling" or not is irrelevant. My stance is still understandable, would you agree?

I am mildly put off by seeing wave after wave after wave of first-party Railworks DLC packages as was the OP. The OP wasn't addressing the people that use the Railworks simulator, rather the guys that put it together and put out so many different packages.

Huge free update incoming, copy and pasted from another other dedicated Sim forum and I hope Derek doesn't mind; posting here to show some people that the money made does go towards further development:

Who's Derek here?

"The German UpdateIt's actually interesting. I'll be keeping an eye on it, perhaps I'll jump in on it at some point myself, however $618 is a big pill to swallow.

[thisurlnotfound]

There is one expansion/add-on for FS X that is made my MS, yes. However there are hundreds (thousands?) made by third party. Just like the vast majority of the RailWorks addons are made by third party, NOT Kuju or whoever owns RW. If you wanted to buy all the FSX addons, it would literally cost you thousands (if not tens-of) of dollars.

People complaining about the cost of the addons ARE trolling. There is a billion other threads they can tack on to, not create new ones. Simulation games do not force you to buy every single piece of DLC. Just the ones you want. The market is also much MUCH smaller for sims than FPS/AAA titles. However the same amount of work goes into the DLC as each, therefore Sim DLCs will cost more money because there is less of a market to pull from.

I am in agreement with ArizonaChris and Matthew on this one. I also have a hard time seeing how a Forum Mod cannot see the OP as trolling when there are plenty of other threads. Why create the new one if they did not want to troll?

TL;DR Sim DLC will always be more expensive than major title DLC simply because the market is smaller and people have to get paid for their work.

[nilcouak]

There is one expansion/add-on for FS X that is made my MS, yes. However there are hundreds (thousands?) made by third party. Just like the vast majority of the RailWorks addons are made by third party, NOT Kuju or whoever owns RW. If you wanted to buy all the FSX addons, it would literally cost you thousands (if not tens-of) of dollars.


I agree, please stop pollute the railworks forum with these threats, at least do a research before posting a new threat and make forums more confusing. thanks.

[Theblob76]

Just like the vast majority of the RailWorks addons are made by third party, NOT Kuju or whoever owns RW.

Yes, just to point out also, RailSimulator.com is not the sole owner of half the addons seen on the Steam page, RailSimulator.com apparently host the addons of 3rd parties.

[{Yotsuba}]

I am mildly put off by seeing wave after wave after wave of first-party Railworks DLC packages as was the OP

A large amount of the DLC sold on Steam is *NOT* first party DLC. There are many third-party developers who release some of their DLC on Steam. (And even they can't release all of it as Valve refuse some of it -- as stated by one such developer).

While RailSimulator.com may be listed as the publisher, consider them akin to EA Partners.

[dobby985]

...with all those paid DLC's. Not only are they clogging up the store page, it's very annoying if you already paid money for a game and need to pay to receive extra content. Way to go, EATrains.

You are beating a dead horse.

[ex_railwayman]

While RailSimulator.com may be listed as the publisher, consider them akin to EA Partners.

What is wrong with Electronic Arts stuff, some of their Sport PC games are second to none, Tiger Woods Golf, NHL 2010, John Madden's NFL 2010, FIFA 10, for example, are world leaders....And most of them can be played on Xbox360, Wii, Playstation3, etc, etc.

Cheerio.

[styckx]

Ad nauseam is a Latin term used to describe an argument which has been continuing "to [the point of] nausea". For example, the sentence "This topic has been discussed ad nauseam" signifies that the topic in question has been discussed extensively and that those involved in the discussion are sick and tired of it.

This term is defined by the American Heritage Dictionary as: "Argumentum ad nauseam or argument from repetition or argumentum ad infinitum is an argument made repeatedly (possibly by different people) until nobody cares to discuss it any more. This may sometimes, but not always, be a form of proof by assertion".

As cognitive bias and logical fallacy

"Ad nauseam" arguments are logical fallacies relying on the repetition of a single argument to the exclusion of all else. This tactic employs intentional obfuscation, in which other logic and rationality is intentionally ignored in favour of preconceived (and ultimately subjective) modes of reasoning and rationality.

[Freyar]

Interesting to know. I just looked at a few in more detail, yes they've got third party developers. All of them are the same publisher though.

First party was taken from the publisher's side, not neccesarily developer's side. Consider me "edukated" on the matter as far as that goes.

I wasn't kidding about looking into it now that the German update has been pushed.

"Ad nauseam" arguments are logical fallacies relying on the repetition of a single argument to the exclusion of all else.

Please denote who you are referring to. For all I am aware of I'm willing to learn from you guys, despite being insulted. Not exactly the best way to widen the small market, even if you're just a part of it. Explain, educate, then ridicule. Not Ridicule, explain, educate.

[arizonachris]

I am mildly put off by seeing wave after wave after wave of first-party Railworks DLC packages as was the OP. The OP wasn't addressing the people that use the Railworks simulator, rather the guys that put it together and put out so many different packages.


We have been over this so many times before. I think most of us agree, there needs to be a solution to what is considered spam of DLC for Rail Works on the Steam Store page. But, I stand by my opinion, that this is the wrong place to complain about it. It only get's us Rail Workers pissed off, because it's just another thing we can't fix. I mean, isn't this a help/ information user to user Forum? Or do I have that wrong?

[dobby985]

We have been over this so many times before. I think most of us agree, there needs to be a solution to what is considered spam of DLC for Rail Works on the Steam Store page. But, I stand by my opinion, that this is the wrong place to complain about it. It only get's us Rail Workers jarateed off, because it's just another thing we can't fix. I mean, isn't this a help/ information user to user Forum? Or do I have that wrong?

RailWorks has just as much right to be in the Store just as much as any other game. You can't complain about it.
It's like going into Blockbuster and saying "How dare you put that movie on display, you should only display movies that I am interested in." Kinda selfish don't you think?

[Freyar]

We have been over this so many times before. I think most of us agree, there needs to be a solution to what is considered spam of DLC for Rail Works on the Steam Store page. But, I stand by my opinion, that this is the wrong place to complain about it. It only get's us Rail Workers jarateed off, because it's just another thing we can't fix. I mean, isn't this a help/ information user to user Forum? Or do I have that wrong?

Some companies are fairly active in their forum. Lesser-known groups moreso than larger publishers like EA.

RailWorks has just as much right to be in the Store just as much as any other game. You can't complain about it.
It's like going into Blockbuster and saying "How dare you put that movie on display, you should only display movies that I am interested in." Kinda selfish don't you think?

Yes, I can, and I do. It'd be nice if DLC was able to be shown only if you owned a particular game maybe, which would be a thing to bring up with Steam itself. However, when one publisher corners 20% of the "new release" list for a good five months with a product that (while may be different to sim users) isn't too far off from the main product, it makes sense as to why people would be frustrated.

It's like buying a car, only to be approached personally by a motorcycle dealer telling you that they've got two new accessories to a bike that you haven't had interest in (or don't own to begin with). It's the same reason we see DVR use going up with TV. It's been said that the market is a niche, but with all of the published add-ons for the product, it takes a disproportionate amount of space and attention.

Should people that are interested be able to know about it, absolutely. Should I buy Railworks will I put up with it, you bet.

[{Yotsuba}]

What is wrong with Electronic Arts stuff

Did I say anything was wrong with them? I'm just stating that RailSimulator.com are similar to EA Partners in that they publish third party content (such as Crysis or Valve games at retail).

First party content on the otherhand, would be content actually made by RailSimulator.com not just published by them -- similar to how all EA games produced in-house or by studios wholly owned by EA would be first party products for EA.

As a lot of the DLC published on Steam is created by developers not actually related to RailSimulator.com, their content is not first party content, they have simply sought RailSimulator.com's help in getting it published on Steam.

[james_2k]

Interesting to know. I just looked at a few in more detail, yes they've got third party developers. All of them are the same publisher though.

First party was taken from the publisher's side, not neccesarily developer's side. Consider me "edukated" on the matter as far as that goes.

I wasn't kidding about looking into it now that the German update has been pushed.



[/I]Please denote who you are referring to. For all I am aware of I'm willing to learn from you guys, despite being insulted. Not exactly the best way to widen the small market, even if you're just a part of it. Explain, educate, then ridicule. Not Ridicule, explain, educate.

even if you were right its irrelevant. im talking about dlc for a game regardless of who makes it. jeeze wake up and smell the coffee. point remains simulator 'DLC' is in a TOTALLY different category to normal dlc


and no its nothing like your car analogy. its more along the lines of supermarket ads for food you dont like. others do so get over it. you dont go complaining to *insert national retailer* if they keep promoting their brussel sprouts on tv do you?

[rgarber]

1) Steam prevents add-on developers for Railworks from marketing product separately from RS.com, thus RS.com hosts add-on content here at Steam for the convenience of their customers.

2) Had MS marketed their FSX through Steam they would have been advised the same as RS.com that marketing of 3rd party content would have to be hosted by MS (the same as RS.com has to).

3) The sim market, totally atypical to the regular game market, allows payware add-on creation. Representing real/fictional elements within any simulator type game world to a global market would be an unrealistic expectation for a single parent company.

Personally, from my perspective having looked into why the typical game doesn’t offer 3rd party payware enhancements is because the hosting companies will not allow it. Just the threat of a suit over copyright infringement is enough to steer the average 3rd party developer away from even trying. So to me, the real issue isn’t why RS.com is clogging up the Steam store, but why the others aren’t. To root and cheer for “lack of content” rather than having an opportunity to choose “more content” is incredulous. The anger seems to me steered in the wrong direction.

[arizonachris]

Hi, Rich! Glad to see you finally popped in here for a "chat" LOL. :)

[rgarber]

Hi Chris,

I figured I "owed" you at least one post.

The one thing I notice say like on a new forum like this is, whereas many of the guys here are people I don't recognize, the online train community itself has been around since mid 2001. Most of us know each other fairly well, 9 years is a long time. This subject of "clogging" up Steam is a bit of a foreign idea for most of us regulars, I would think. Back in the early days of MSTS there wasn't any content let alone a chance for it. There were no modeling tools except for the very expensive 3D Max. Along came the more accessible tools and the hobby took off.

Especially for the newcomers they don't understand the "hobby" aspect of this, I think. I still consider myself more a model railroad guy than a virtual rail enthusiast or even a payware company. To me, a few dollar add-on is incredibly cheap versus building and populating a real model-railroad set. To do what I would want in model railroading world, I would have to add-on to my house. A $10 DLC is nothing compared to the cost of an addition to a house.

Because of the rough economy but even more so the better arrangement of modeling tools availabe in Railworks, I think our new friends here would be flabberghasted that our add-ons in Railworks typically cost little and nowhere near as much as a new game like they did for MSTS. My Canton route in its heyday cost the average purchaser $51. And there was no shortage of purchasers back then. And while this may sound ludicrous to the passer-by who would see that and utter a "ohh myyy!", compared to a model railroad layout, that even the hundreds you could spend on Railworks DLC is a drop-in the bucket compared to a populated model railroad layout.

Which is not to suggest the prices I choose, or better yet, we choose... are arbitraily assigned based on what we could spend on something else. It takes real work and plenty of hours to develop an add-on. And the scrutiny of our work is thorough. I got into doing fictional routes just to avoid the river counter who would ask me where the "Elm and Oak St. signs are at which should be there!" Rail enthusiasts just like military game enthusiasts can be just as ruthless in their criticism if not inspection of what we do for add-ons.

But to repeat my argument again, and this is where reading this thread had me scratching the old noodle, is most game publishers shut down any attempt for commerical add-ons to happen. The complaint shouldn't be at RS.com for clogging Steam but rather why can't folks mod for other games and charge for their effort? The companies that don't allow it sure don't mind charging their customers for extra content nowadays that used to be included in the game. Wouldn't any of you rather have the choice of whose content to get especially since it's been proven over and over again that add-on modders can do just as good a job, if not better, given the opportunity? And whose to say that these other game companies who do charge for add-ons haven't seen the success of the flight simming community, or even this one, and are joining in on the band wagon because of the simming community's success.

It's all pros for the consumer. It's pros for the game company. There are no cons. Not even the one I've heard espouse "we're protecting our customers." Add-on payware content is like any other fee-based industry. The better stuff we put out, the more customers we have - the more money we make. Last time I looked, most of us work to make money. If cheap junk is put out, then that company won't last long. And that bad quality add-ons are made is no more a moral depravity than the big game publishers who put out half-finished games and then abandon them.

And with DRM's such an issue nowadays, isn't it nice you can still do business on a handshake with most 3rd party commercial companies? I have just purchased RWDecal. I got my serial number and off I went. I had a question. The guy answered. Nice fella. I gave him a copy of my Fort Kent route. It's nice to do business with folks where we're all not reaching for our guns.

I'm just about finished with my rant but I want to say again, the finger should be pointed at the companies that don't allow commercial add-on development, not at RS.com. I think the discontent that showed up in this thread is from people who would rather have the choice to purchase for their favorite game. I don't blame them for being angry. But the blame is out there, not at RS.com.

Rich

[Freyar]

Interesting read, and very valid points. We see the standard commercial development companies for games lowering their standards for quality while increasing price, while charging for sub-standard and vague add-ons.

You are right in that a community can do much better than the actual developer, we can see this evidenced in any sim market, and even commercial games as well. I suppose the problem is that a lot of people see "RAILWORKS: [Add-on Name] Add On" and while they are mainly gamers and not simulator fans, the amount of "shelf space" taken is disproportionate.

Maybe a better solution would be to poke Steam/Gabe and see if a separate "DLC" list would be better, or maybe it's just something that will be left as-is and grumbled about on both sides. Railworks is literally the only major simulator (Train, Military, Aircraft, otherwise) that is as strong as it is on Steam. It's presence is massive, despite the size of the market.

Now Rich, you discussed how much it would cost to make a model railroad in comparison to the prices asked, however what a lot of non-simmers have as far as mindset is that each piece of DLC detracts from the whole product. With all of the Railworks stamped DLC (be it publisher or not), that value drops tremendously for the core product and imparts a feeling of it being "incomplete".

It's a presentation issue.

Yes, my opinion of Railworks as a whole has changed during the course of this thread. It went from looking at Railworks as a "game" (since Steam was primarily a distributor of "games") to Railworks as a "simulator" on the same level of FSX and so on. (I used to be heavily involved in FS2009.)

[rgarber]

Let's focus in on this mindset then that "each piece of DLC detracts from the whole product."

Then those folks totally misunderstand what the Railworks game actually is. Besides a train game Railworks is also a design application. I never thought of this in this respect as to how outsiders view what we do, but a train game like Railworks has to be a two dimensional product.

On one hand the train game has to meet a reasonable expectation that it replicates real life railroading (past, present and future). That and reach a global market of railroading enthusiasts.

That's an incredibly tall order just on that level. But at the same time because the draw of railroading enthusiasts is global, there's no possible way one company can do it all. So a good train game has to also have a strong development suite to go along with it.

Call it the curse of MSTS but that game hit the market unfinished but it did enough and set the trend that anything that follows has to equal or better the strengths it offered. While the game itself was lackluster in its original offering, the open architecture allowed independents of both freeware and payware to continue on to this day despite the game being abandoned by its creators.

That right there is the key to understanding the sim community. It's strength is its participants and not the other way around. Those folk who misunderstand the train community must not appreciate that the hobby is not the game itself but railroading in general.

Railroading is a composite of folklore, history, commerce, equipment, people and much more with a global following. And each country handles its railroads differently. In other words, we're just a small faction of a much larger community.

In our small corner of this vast hobby, virtual railroading is quite similar to model railroading; only our tools are different. For instance, to create a model railroad, the things you have to get good at are woodworking, scratchbuilding, painting, wiring, creativity/inovation, computers, etc. The same goes with virtual railroading where you learn graphics, history, research, modeling, etc.

The point being that there's just no way a small company can manufacture the infrastructure that tries to encompass a hobby as diverse and as huge as railroading. Who would even take on such a task and try to market it? For Railworks it started with a train enthusiast, Paul Jackson, the CEO of RS.com. I'm sure we can all agree it's been a bumpy ride. But at the same time there is a tremendous amount of potential to achieve the double tier objectives I spoke of earlier.

Why the rest of the game industry stifles payware add-on creativity, that has always baffled me. Flightsim enthusiasts are just starting to "get" what the MSTS train community has known for some time. A good game with a decent scope that comes with decent development tools can last a very long time in the consumers hands, even abandoned.

Give RS.com credit because they understand the user and independent development component most game companies don't. RS.com isn't just improving the gaming portion of the game, but the editors as well. So you see, anyone who would suggest that extra content for the game is a weakness, misunderstands that in fact extra content (whoever the provider is) is actually one of the more powerful features of the game.

Rich

[matthewt1501]

A couple of very good posts there Rich! Nice one. +1 rep!

[arizonachris]

For those of you who might not know, Rich is the creator of the Fort Kent to Eagle Lake add on, and it's superb work. And, IIRC, it was about $10 USD. Way to milk the customers, Rich! (kidding, of course! :D )

[Toripony]

I am so glad to see someone explaining Railworks the way I see it.... as a virtual model railroad. Great posts, Rich! As a want-to-be model railroader, I never found the money, space and time to make that wish come true. Railworks has created a brand new hobby for me that will last for years. As a hobby, ongoing expenses are expected, though none could be as cheap as this one. An excellent point by Rich is that Railworks is essentially a development platform. The possibilities for the future are [seemingly] endless.

One point I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is that for every new DLC model released, there are usually a dozen repaints available for free soon after, which makes the cost to value ratio miniscule. In real model railroading, each unit for each RR line is a separate purchase.... from $5 to $500 each!

Railworks isn't perfect, but it's young and I see it getting better by the week. It is, I believe, going to be THE RR sim of the future. If I didn't believe this, I wouldn't continue building a U.S. route and assets for the "game".

Tori

[arizonachris]

Welcome, Tori, and spot on. Great reply.

Please, check out the other websites I mentioned (if you haven't already)
Railworks America
Allaboardrails
UKTrains.com

Lots of payware and freeware, and tech support to be found.

[rgarber]

I am so glad to see someone explaining Railworks the way I see it.... as a virtual model railroad. Great posts, Rich! As a want-to-be model railroader, I never found the money, space and time to make that wish come true. Railworks has created a brand new hobby for me that will last for years. As a hobby, ongoing expenses are expected, though none could be as cheap as this one. An excellent point by Rich is that Railworks is essentially a development platform. The possibilities for the future are [seemingly] endless.

One point I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is that for every new DLC model released, there are usually a dozen repaints available for free soon after, which makes the cost to value ratio miniscule. In real model railroading, each unit for each RR line is a separate purchase.... from $5 to $500 each!

Railworks isn't perfect, but it's young and I see it getting better by the week. It is, I believe, going to be THE RR sim of the future. If I didn't believe this, I wouldn't continue building a U.S. route and assets for the "game".

Tori

Hi Tori,

You would have loved the early days of MSTS for sure. The spirit of cooperation back then was pretty awesome. In our communities the participants come from all kinds of backgrounds and interests. For instance there were many many model railroaders, real engineers, railfans, folks who like to do research, game players, etc. Often times if there was a question long threads would start up and folks would fill in the blanks. I remember one time in one of my forums where I asked a question about grain facilities and lots of information came in and you see the results of that in my routes.

I can appreciate the average gamer not understanding the sim community. Having been a long standing participant in the flight community I see the same things there. It's not usually about the game though of course the game is at focus if it meets or fails in some area of replicating what one knows or expects to see from real life.

Participants in our hobby who first get into these train games are often misled by the nomenclature, simulator. Our $40 simulators can't really simulate like the multi-million dollars one do. And often from our rivet counters they ask the impossible. What I like about RS.com is 1) they're still around after releasing the game and haven't abandon it 2) they do listen but sift through what's feasible to do.

Being a game player I was and still am somewhat into war sims and have found many educational. What I thought was tragic was they weren't able to balance between what the rivet counters were asking for and what was doable. In the end, the simulators became pretty technical and if I'm not mistaken, lost the guys who just wanted to have some fun and not make a second career of war game playing.

In that regard I hope RS.com never loses focus that ultimately people want a replication of the real thing but mostly to the point where its reasonable. For instance we know steam engines take hours to first fire up, I wouldn't want to have my computer on for that long just firing up a steam engine.

The last thing I would want to say is Railworks is still a fledgling product. Most of what we're going through of late is adjusting to the different market dynamics which seem to constantly change. Back in the days of MSTS heyday, word of mouth was the best form of advertising. Right now, Steam has a lot to offer and so far is a good way to promote product. From what I'm hearing, in time, Steam will have better accomodations for our kind of market. This is new for them too and it's easy to be set in one's ways especially as successful as they have been.

Well, I just originally meant to clear up some confusion I saw posted earlier in this thread. I tend to hybernate mostly over at Railworks America. I'm real glad to see this much activity over here though. I hope you guys keep it up!

Rich Garber

[laika]

What i,m missing are payware routes. I don,t care mutch about rollinstock. I only buy electrical commuter trains. But there are not alot routes for this sim. Hope this will change in future

[matthewt1501]

What i,m missing are payware routes. I don,t care mutch about rollinstock. I only buy electrical commuter trains. But there are not alot routes for this sim. Hope this will change in future

I'm sure it will...

I'm the same, though I like the BR STandard Locos (there are a few of them in this game) but sadly not many scenarios that use them which is a shame.

I'd pay for more scenarios using me Class 5, 8F, Jubilee, and 7F.. Just a thought.

It's interesting, I have really 0% interest in the world editor.. I love driving trains, and love the mechanics, and reaserching them, but totally don't care about building my own routes. I want them built, so I can drive them.
Though it's odd as I love my model railway, and can spend hours just making new layouts/extensions/building.

Cheers.

Matt.

[laika]

I'm sure it will...

I'm the same, though I like the BR STandard Locos (there are a few of them in this game) but sadly not many scenarios that use them which is a shame.

I'd pay for more scenarios using me Class 5, 8F, Jubilee, and 7F.. Just a thought.

It's interesting, I have really 0% interest in the world editor.. I love driving trains, and love the mechanics, and reaserching them, but totally don't care about building my own routes. I want them built, so I can drive them.
Though it's odd as I love my model railway, and can spend hours just making new layouts/extensions/building.

Cheers.

Matt.

Then we are in the same boat. For building routes and diarama,s i use Trainz. I use railworks only for driving trains. But i saw a new payware route is comming up the GARL. So there is hope. I don,t care to pay for routes. Like MSTS there are tons of great payware routes. Hope railworks goes the same way.

Greetz

[matthewt1501]

Then we are in the same boat. For building routes and diarama,s i use Trainz. I use railworks only for driving trains. But i saw a new payware route is comming up the GARL. So there is hope. I don,t care to pay for routes. Like MSTS there are tons of great payware routes. Hope railworks goes the same way.

Greetz

Yeah RW is just too clunky for building stuff for me.. It takes me ages just to do anything! I lost interest in in very quickly!
There should be an Automatic "add AI Trains" button.. :) Also the ability to generate a random route, and then the player can just furish it with stuff, and place names! :)
It's much easier in 00 Scale.. you just build stuff and tack it down/Run it! :)

Cheers.

Matt

[styckx]

World editor "clunky?" The World Editor is quite powerful actually and a pleasure to work in. Calling it clunky is a huge false blanket statement. In some aspects the World Editor is the better than the actual game itself. Hell, RSC could have easily not included the editor in Railworks and charged an extra $15 for the editor itself and it would have flew out the door.

[matthewt1501]

"Yeah RW is just too clunky for building stuff for me.. It takes me ages just to do anything! I lost interest in in very quickly!"

I'm not saying it isn't powerful, just not rerally my cup of tea. Not really sure it's a false statment.. It's my opinion, thats that.

The only world editor I ever liked was AOE2.. it was great. It didn't take 3 months just get the trees laid out!

So for those that like the World editor, great, i'm sure it's fantastic, but just not my bag.... I think there are just too many options, for those of us that just want to drive.

The scenarios that have been made in it (the ones that work anyway) are great, and I love driving them, but I find that even making my own simple scenario takes a day for it even to be half realistic. I have to timetable each AI train for example. This takes a decade especially if it's on a busy line like the GWR. I don't mind timetabling my OWN train, but do I have to do all the AI ones too...? Thats just boring, there should be an option to just add random AI traffic. That would be so much easier!

Still I'm a Driver, an Engineer (sadly not a loco one) and a Model Railway fan, not a scenario Builder.. :)

There are many aspects to this hobby, and Building scenarios is just as valid as standing on a platform at 4AM with a powerful camera, thermos flask, waiting for a GWR Castle class to thunder past at full tilt! :)

Cheers,

Matt

[arizonachris]

I have to agree with Matt here, I'm just a driver. I want scenarios layed out for me, jobs to do. I just can't wrap my head around all the work it takes (and I know it takes an awful lot of work) to create new routes/ scenarios. I look up to guys like Rich Garber and Lonewolfdon. These guys are awesome. I can't do that stuff. I just can't.

I respect you that can create things with the editor that is in Rail Works. :D

[Brendissimo35]

Look, I hate to revive an old thread, but two new ones people started were just locked, and this was the closest match I could find in search.

First off, whatever you all want to spend your money is none of my business, I'm not here to talk about the alleged "milking" going on here.

However, Railworks is incredibly frustrating to the vast majority of steam users because Railworks DLC is constantly filling up the specials column, DLC which the vast majority of steam users do not care for. I was wondering if there was a simple way to consolidate all of the current sales for DLC for this game into one expandable tab in the sales column, that way the majority of us do not have to sift through all the Railworks DLC every time we want to assess this week's sales.

I have nothing against the product or it's fanbase, but this is getting out of hand. I'm not interested in Railworks and I don't want to hear about every minute price drop on every piece of DLC in my specials column 24/7. I don't think I can even remember a time when Railworks DLC wasn't filling up the specials column...

[elof_ffs]

Look, I hate to revive an old thread, but two new ones people started were just locked, and this was the closest match I could find in search.

First off, whatever you all want to spend your money is none of my business, I'm not here to talk about the alleged "milking" going on here.

However, Railworks is incredibly frustrating to the vast majority of steam users because Railworks DLC is constantly filling up the specials column, DLC which the vast majority of steam users do not care for. I was wondering if there was a simple way to consolidate all of the current sales for DLC for this game into one expandable tab in the sales column, that way the majority of us do not have to sift through all the Railworks DLC every time we want to assess this week's sales.

I have nothing against the product or it's fanbase, but this is getting out of hand. I'm not interested in Railworks and I don't want to hear about every minute price drop on every piece of DLC in my specials column 24/7. I don't think I can even remember a time when Railworks DLC wasn't filling up the specials column...

It's Steam thats putting the DLC stuff up, not us trainsimmers,

I would think that here was a better place to post about DLC
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=14

kevin

[arizonachris]

It's Steam thats putting the DLC stuff up, not us trainsimmers,

I would think that here was a better place to post about DLC
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=14

kevin

This exactly. I still fail to understand why these "Railhaters" come to a user to user help Forum that has no control whatsoever over Steam's advertising. Please, post your anger somewhere else.

[spyrochaete]

I have nothing against the product or it's fanbase, but this is getting out of hand. I'm not interested in Railworks and I don't want to hear about every minute price drop on every piece of DLC in my specials column 24/7. I don't think I can even remember a time when Railworks DLC wasn't filling up the specials column...

Agreed here! In my mind this comes down to finding the percentage of Steam users who own this game versus the percentage of product SKUs that take up store page real estate. My guess is that this ratio is severely skewed.

I'm sure this is a cool game but it doesn't much interest me, so I'd rather not have to mentally filter out all the RailWorks content every time I want to see what's on sale.

That being said, if I ever make a game I will be sure to release tons of DLC for it to ensure I get constant free advertising!

[arizonachris]

That being said, if I ever make a game I will be sure to release tons of DLC for it to ensure I get constant free advertising!

Where the heck did you ever get the idea that it was free to sell anything on Steam? They take a percentage of every sale.

[matthewt1501]

Where the heck did you ever get the idea that it was free to sell anything on Steam? They take a percentage of every sale.

Some people are so bloody stupid.. it just goes to show how ignorant they really are mate.

[Brendissimo35]

This exactly. I still fail to understand why these "Railhaters" come to a user to user help Forum that has no control whatsoever over Steam's advertising. Please, post your anger somewhere else.

I don't hate your game or your community, and I am not "posting my anger," but I am trying to get this fixed.

And in other locked threads I seem to remember a forum mod posting saying that the devs do read this forum, and if anyone could do something about this would it not be the developers?

I already posted in General Steam suggestions but yet I have not had any response, therefore I am trying to go through all possible channels, and I believe this forum is such a channel.

[{Yotsuba}]

but I am trying to get this fixed.

Get what fixed? Nothing is broken. The Steam store is working exactly as Valve intend it to. The developers of RailWorks can't do a thing about how Valve run their own store.

[Brendissimo35]

Get what fixed? Nothing is broken. The Steam store is working exactly as Valve intend it to.


Something is broken, and if that isn't abundantly clear to you from the amount of posts this is generating then I don't know what will make you realize it. Also, Steam rarely works exactly the Valve intends it to. Most likely answer is that they are incredibly busy.

If one thread in your forum annoys you but helps get this issue more widely acknowledged and subsequently fixed... where's the problem? And however much one thread annoys you, anywhere from 10-15 entries in the "Specials" column on a daily basis dwarfs that in my book.

[Snapscape]

I feel a bit ripped as well. I wanted to get a rebate off my original Rail Sim but the mail in my area doesn't exist. What I was hoping for is a CD key authentication. Downloadable content should be less or free since we paid $50 for the game.

[matthewt1501]

Something is broken, and if that isn't abundantly clear to you from the amount of posts this is generating then I don't know what will make you realize it. Also, Steam rarely works exactly the Valve intends it to. Most likely answer is that they are incredibly busy.

If one thread in your forum annoys you but helps get this issue more widely acknowledged and subsequently fixed... where's the problem? And however much one thread annoys you, anywhere from 10-15 entries in the "Specials" column on a daily basis dwarfs that in my book.


Listen up you complete muppet,

Nothing is broken! Does it really bother you that much... if so I suggest you get a job or a life, or something more taxing to worry about.

We like the sim, you don't, so call it even.. now Foxtrot Oscar sunshine!

Matt

[elof_ffs]

I'm going to start a topic here, TV adverts really p i s s me off,
I'm pretty sure some TV executive will read it here.

kevin

[{Yotsuba}]

Something is broken, and if that isn't abundantly clear to you from the amount of posts this is generating then I don't know what will make you realize it.

The only thing broken here, is the self entitlement felt by the majority of people who feel they must complain because they don't understand a range of products being sold. Do you often go into stores and complain when they release products you aren't interested in? No? Then why do it here? If you don't like it; don't spend 24/7 looking at the Steam store.

[matthewt1501]

I'm going to start a topic here, TV adverts really p i s s me off,
I'm pretty sure some TV executive will read it here.

kevin

PMSL! :)

[Pilotclan9404]

fsx is a flight sim... is it on steam no...

is it cloging the steam page... NO

[matthewt1501]

and your point is???

[{Yotsuba}]

He doesn't have a point. As the game isn't sold over Steam, it's hardly going to sell any related products on Steam. He'd only have a point if there were, in fact, another simulator of equal standing being sold on Steam that then only sold additional quality separately from Steam.

[matthewt1501]

It's a shame you answered.... ;)

I was looking forward to hearing the pearls of wisdom that such an example should bring... :D

Just think, thats the "next generation" it makes you shudder with disbeleif doesn't it!

They say that "birds of a feather flock together", so the scary thing is, that for every moron that posts like that there must be thousands more...

we are outnumbered... don't shoot until you see they whites of their eyes, and save the last bullet for yourself. It's a better fate than being turned into a "stupid"!

Matt

[Brendissimo35]

I don't think the steam specials column was ever intended to be used for free, incessant advertising. That's what's broken, and I don't know how to make it any clearer.

I think we're just repeating ourselves at this point, so I will leave you railworks folk in peace. I wish I could say this had been a civil interaction, because up until "matthew" entered the conversation with such original retorts as "get a life" it had been...

[matthewt1501]

I don't think the steam specials column was ever intended to be used for free, incessant advertising. That's what's broken, and I don't know how to make it any clearer.

I think we're just repeating ourselves at this point, so I will leave you railworks folk in peace. I wish I could say this had been a civil interaction, because up until "matthew" entered the conversation with such original retorts as "get a life" it had been...


Yeah sure, blame me.. your the one trying to convert us all!

The fact is YOU came here, and YOU joined in a long closed topic, we had all moved on... but NO, "Brendissimo35" (which sounds like a coffee making machine BTW) thought that we hadn't got the point of it, and so felt that his point was SO SO SO much more different that the other 5 billion people that post here about the same thing.

But hey, it's my fault!

Glad you're gone by the way.

[{Yotsuba}]

I don't think the steam specials column was ever intended to be used for free, incessant advertising.

It's a sale. End of. Deal with it. Please.

[arizonachris]

I don't hate your game or your community, and I am not "posting my anger," but I am trying to get this fixed.

And in other locked threads I seem to remember a forum mod posting saying that the devs do read this forum, and if anyone could do something about this would it not be the developers?

I already posted in General Steam suggestions but yet I have not had any response, therefore I am trying to go through all possible channels, and I believe this forum is such a channel.

But you don't seem to realize that us, as users of the Forum and this sim, cannot do a damn thing about this issue. If you can't get an answer out of Steam, how do you think we can? This has been talked about to death and I see yet another Thread about it has started. When will you Railworks haters give US a break? :o

[Zorlac]

No they don't. There are a million other threads that finish the way this one will.
They only come here, type this crap in, just to get a response.

<SNIP>

Zefar note: They got a valid beef with the company, just accept it. If you still want to talk about it there is PM.

Who are you to say someone else can't have their own opinion? Seriously? That's where you've crossed the line friend. You REALLY need to learn some respect for others before you use a forum again.

[Zorlac]

But you don't seem to realize that us, as users of the Forum and this sim, cannot do a damn thing about this issue. If you can't get an answer out of Steam, how do you think we can? This has been talked about to death and I see yet another Thread about it has started. When will you Railworks haters give US a break? :o

And you're apparently ignoring the fact that the developers read this forum and they indeed CAN do something about it.

[arizonachris]

And you're apparently ignoring the fact that the developers read this forum and they indeed CAN do something about it.

But this is the wrong place to complain. Come on, dude.

[Zorlac]

But this is the wrong place to complain. Come on, dude.

As I said in another thread, where would you have users complain? The counterstrike forums? This may be the railworks section, but as a steam user I have the right to post here, and voice my opinion just like you do. Telling me I can't is well, wrong.

[arizonachris]

As I said in another thread, where would you have users complain? The counterstrike forums? This may be the railworks section, but as a steam user I have the right to post here, and voice my opinion just like you do. Telling me I can't is well, wrong.

Sir, I am not saying you can't have your own opinion. Far from it. But, now are you saying I can't have mine?

This is going nowhere. Us "Railworkers" cannot do a damn thing about what you all call spam. You all need to contact Steam Support and file your grievances there. All you are doing here is hate.

[rgarber]

@zorlac Oh, I get it. So you're saying that our solution to our problem of people like you spamming our forum is to find out where you post and for all of us to go spam your forum with our complaints of you spamming our forum as we're entitled to post there as well and its our right. Now there's a sensible solution. And that way nobody in any forum gets to talk about their games either. You guys are real brilliant. Or is this really only meant to be a one-way thing where its okay for you to spam even though your complaint is that RSC spams your whatever list you guys seem so happy about.

Rich

[arizonachris]

Oops, careful, Rich, you either hit the nail on the head, or you're gonna getta a "time out" :o

Either way, spot on. And if I get a time out too, so be it. :D

I just can't get my head wrapped around why "Zorlak" is such a hater. Come on, man, why do you hate us simmers? Throw your hate at Steam! really, dude! We don't have anyting at all to do with this! It is a legight issue but one we cannot solve. Peace? Please?

[elof_ffs]

I'm not going to talk to them any more, I dont care about Railworks spamming up the DLC list, I haven't even seen this list,
I DONT CARE!




:)

[Zorlac]

@zorlac Oh, I get it. So you're saying that our solution to our problem of people like you spamming our forum is to find out where you post and for all of us to go spam your forum with our complaints of you spamming our forum as we're entitled to post there as well and its our right. Now there's a sensible solution. And that way nobody in any forum gets to talk about their games either. You guys are real brilliant. Or is this really only meant to be a one-way thing where its okay for you to spam even though your complaint is that RSC spams your whatever list you guys seem so happy about.

Rich


So now you're publicly insulting me? At one point I was very interested in buying Railworks. I didn't even mid the amount of DLC it just seriously bothers me that you guys are acting like if we have our own opinion (and it doesn't agree with yours) then you consider our posts to be spam. You claim to be the one selling the product here, then you go an directly attack a user of steam.

Well sir, you just lost a customer of any product you may ever make in the future, and if someone talks about Railworks, and asks me why I won't purchase your product I'm keeping this thread bookmarked so i can show them exactly WHY I feel this way.

As someone who is supposed to be a professional you could have handled this a lot better.

[rgarber]

Seriously Zorac, is there anybody in this forum that HASN'T insulted you? :D

[arizonachris]

Seriously Zorac, is there anybody in this forum that HASN'T insulted you? :D

Probably not, because he insults all of us first. An eye for an eye.

[{Yotsuba}]

And you're apparently ignoring the fact that the developers read this forum and they indeed CAN do something about it.

The only people who can change how the Steam store works is Valve. And they are not reading this forum.

[Theblob76]

How much does valve raise the price, I think I heard 40%-50%

[rgarber]

It doesn't work like that. Valve is only a promoter. The enticement is volume sales so the prices are suggested at ranges where everybody takes home something but the cost can't be so high the price isn't attractive.

[Theblob76]

It doesn't work like that. Valve is only a promoter. The enticement is volume sales so the prices are suggested at ranges where everybody takes home something but the cost can't be so high the price isn't attractive.

Ah, thank you for clearing it up a bit.

[matthewt1501]

Who are you to say someone else can't have their own opinion? Seriously? That's where you've crossed the line friend. You REALLY need to learn some respect for others before you use a forum again.

Dear Zorlac.

Without Prejustice

With respect to opinions.... sure, have yours... it's wrong, but you can have it, and continue to be a misguilded fool... knock yourself out.

With regards to crossing lines...
Look whos spamming whos forum!

On the Respect Aspect. May I suggest you read my other posts not on this rather laborious topic. You will see that I have total respect for other forum users. However I have nothing but total and utter contemp for those who come here to hate/spam under a flag of innocence. So just to summerise I have no respect for you. Just to clear that up. Respect is earnt, and not just handed out by default. A lesson you need to learn... possibly the hard way.

Yours faithfully (faith in that that you will just sod off!)

Matt