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Calbrenar
05-03-2010, 06:37 PM
There are a few places in the wiki where it talks about building certain buildings to help with your taxes.

http://anno1404.wikia.com/wiki/Goat_farm

When built one goat farm can feed 450 Nomads or 600 Envoys. To boost taxes, it's good to build a goat farm for at least half of your population.

Is there any specifics on what this means? How exactly does building it boost taxes? What other optional resources boost taxes? If I have carpets for example I *NEVER* give them to my nomads until I am ready to promote to envoy. Instead I spread them out to all my islands and passively sell them. The above quote makes it sound like if I were to give them to the nomads I'd raise taxes. I realize its probably still not worth it but what about say linen for Citizens or some of the requirements to get noblemen when you still have patrician. Like giving patricians debtor's prison when you are still missing cathedral is it worth it to boost taxes?

flipperwhipper
05-04-2010, 06:18 AM
There are a few places in the wiki where it talks about building certain buildings to help with your taxes.

http://anno1404.wikia.com/wiki/Goat_farm



Is there any specifics on what this means? How exactly does building it boost taxes? What other optional resources boost taxes? If I have carpets for example I *NEVER* give them to my nomads until I am ready to promote to envoy. Instead I spread them out to all my islands and passively sell them. The above quote makes it sound like if I were to give them to the nomads I'd raise taxes. I realize its probably still not worth it but what about say linen for Citizens or some of the requirements to get noblemen when you still have patrician. Like giving patricians debtor's prison when you are still missing cathedral is it worth it to boost taxes?

Well I'm not sure about the exact numbers or the mechanism by which the game increases tax yields...but I have put about 250hrs into the game so I'll try to explain the best I can.

Essentially a happier person (whether peasant or nobleman) pays more tax, as the wiki is saying - and a happier person in the game is one with more needs satisfied, like milk. You can see this occur in the game - watch the bar under the person's portrait, where you can set their tax bracket (euphoric, happy, content), and when the new good begins to enter the market, the bar slider will go further to the right. This is also very evident at envoy / patrician level and up - at certain points, their tax slider will show no green (only yellow, content and worse): as soon as enough needs are satisfied, euphoric and happy comes back (and content to happy is a huge revenue difference).

So basically you have two ways to boost tax income:

1. Satisfy needs to boost revenue from EACH person
2. Build more houses to boost revenue from MORE people

I would start playing with the goal in mind of trying to keep each class of persons fully satisfied - the caveat being that if your revenue can't support the production buildings of the goods, do #2 - expand your tax base, then use the additional revenue to accommodate production building upkeep.

I think you'll find if you play with that goal, your tax revenue will be very very very good - at certain points in the game I've had revenues in the 3,000-5,000 gold pieces range.

EDIT: I meant to add that any surplus goods that aren't being consumed may either be traded or stockpiled - if you need the $$$ or dont have storage, knock yourself out and sell it. Otherwise, I tend to keep surplus, knowing that at a certain point as I'm expanding it will start to be depleted - that gives me time to watch the rate of depletion and adjust the production accordingly and ensures persons don't suddenly lose satisfaction of a good and tank my revenues mid-expanding.

Also, any class of persons who you do not plan on granting ascension rights to should be set at happy, not euphoric, as that is the sweet spot for revenues. Switch to euphoric when you need to grant rights, and when you're done back to happy!

Also it sounds as if you don't have deny ascension rights on - this is essential! The game is unplayable, IMO, with the game deciding to promote your people. You need to click the picture of the scroll on your market and set it on. That way, you have control over ascension, which really means you have control over the supply lines that keep your classes happy (since the number of people in a class is going to determine their consumption - if the game is constantly promoting people you're screwed. Or you have to deny specific goods to prevent ascension but that's silly since there is a button that does it for you!). If you already have it on, then pretend you didn't read this.

Calbrenar
05-04-2010, 04:24 PM
thanks for the detailed reply; I appreciate the time you put into it!

I don't use deny rights you are absolutely correct but I make use of the 2nd and 3rd tax brackets (I use 2nd if I still have people moving in and yellow if its static). This negates the need to use deny rights at all since as far as I know they only promote at euphoric.

I definitely will try to experiment with satisfying needs. I always thought nomads were garbage tax income but that's probably because I only ever gave them dates until I wanted envoys lol

leatelamon
05-05-2010, 03:47 AM
I don't even set it at happy, I set it at content, but it depends on the difficulty. If I got icky stuff like Plague on, then I set it to happy so I will not have to micromanage everytime the Plague wears off and they are ready to move back in again.

Also, I cannot stress the importance of building a bailwick on any island where you poduce a lot of goods. This might be one of your biggest sources of reducing upkeep costs, but make sure that you build it somewhere where the bailwick's own upkeep cost will be evened out with the upkeep cost it reduces.

And nomads pay much better than peasants! However, noblemen pay more than envoys, whereas envoys are more comparable to patricians later in the game. It is also important to note that the amount of gold that you seen on the house screen (when you click on a house and there's the portrait and their satisfaction level) is overall income of that town, not the specific house, so to calculate exactly how much you get you need to split that sum between all the houses first. If you have a nomad colony with say, only 10 houses and then 100 peasant houses, obviously it will seem that peasants pay more.

HermannLombard
05-05-2010, 08:42 AM
Also, any class of persons who you do not plan on granting ascension rights to should be set at happy, not euphoric, as that is the sweet spot for revenues.
In my experience switching taxes from "happy" to "content" always increases revenue, so it doesn't seem to me that "happy" is a sweet spot.

Meanwhile, I tend to try to keep all of the wants supplied, and not just the real needs (food and sometimes drink). Others follow the strategy of denying the mere "wants" until ready to promote.

I guess one could test by selectively supplying or denying something, simply looking at the tax revenue once the wheel of need hits top or bottom.

Calbrenar
05-05-2010, 11:08 AM
In my experience switching taxes from "happy" to "content" always increases revenue, so it doesn't seem to me that "happy" is a sweet spot.

I think you misunderstood what he said. He was saying he sets it to happy as the "sweet spot" because content blocks people from moving in.

From lowest Taxes -> Highest
Euphoric - People move in & Auto-Ascend if Possible
Happy - People move in but do not promote
Content - People do not move in and do not promote but also do not move out.

So if you set it to Content; what he was saying is every time a happiness changing event occurs, such as plague or running out of a resource, you have to change the happiness up to happy so that the people you lost during plage/unhappy time move back in. Otherwise you have empty houses.

It's basically a micro thing. Assuming you have the micro ability or can remember to change it, its always better to keep your houses on content to eke out the most money, but every time something changes or you want to promote you have to remember to change it back until you are done promoting and all the new houses fill up. He says happy is sweet spot because he'd rather focus on other stuff.

What I'm still curious about is how the two paths (more houses vs more needs satisfied) compare. Will I get more money in the long run if I just satisfy minimal needs and just focus all resources on houses, or is it more efficient/profitable to build all the goods and thus build less houses?

leatelamon
05-05-2010, 11:40 AM
In my experience, I cannot go plus no matter how I try and no matter how many houses I build and no matter how much I deny except the basics. The majority of my income comes from passive trading. The problem is that as you expand a colony, you must also expand how much you produce to satisfy, and it seems to be pretty much plus minus zero.

flipperwhipper
05-05-2010, 01:36 PM
I think you misunderstood what he said. He was saying he sets it to happy as the "sweet spot" because content blocks people from moving in.

From lowest Taxes -> Highest
Euphoric - People move in & Auto-Ascend if Possible
Happy - People move in but do not promote
Content - People do not move in and do not promote but also do not move out.

So if you set it to Content; what he was saying is every time a happiness changing event occurs, such as plague or running out of a resource, you have to change the happiness up to happy so that the people you lost during plage/unhappy time move back in. Otherwise you have empty houses.

It's basically a micro thing. Assuming you have the micro ability or can remember to change it, its always better to keep your houses on content to eke out the most money, but every time something changes or you want to promote you have to remember to change it back until you are done promoting and all the new houses fill up. He says happy is sweet spot because he'd rather focus on other stuff.

What I'm still curious about is how the two paths (more houses vs more needs satisfied) compare. Will I get more money in the long run if I just satisfy minimal needs and just focus all resources on houses, or is it more efficient/profitable to build all the goods and thus build less houses?

That's exactly right - I probably should've specified that. "Content" does boost revenue, but as you're saying, supply or natural events disrupt content citizens (ie THEY MOVE OUT! ^_^ sad panda). Not worth it to me.

In regards to your last comment, I don't see why one wouldn't satisfy every and any need - the question is only one of timing. Sometimes it is necessary to forgoe fulfilling something to do what I call "sideways expand" - that is, boost the population in lower brackets to increase tax revenue and support the new supply.

Housing only requires building materials - so I don't think building production buildings precludes housing. Lumber, stone, wood, tools, and glass are always in abundant supply.

TLDR: What I'm trying to say is that the limitation in building production is not materials but rather income - since its imprudent to supply something if it causes you to go into the red. Needing more tax revenue to cover more expensive needs (chapels, brocade robes, etc) is what necessitates a large city.

An example would be:

I have +200 gold coins income.

I have a new need for books.

Books require indigo and paper, and glass to make the Printing House. The indigo will require either the settlement of a new island with that fertility, or an increase in existing trade line or the creation of a new one. Add up all the upkeep, ships, farms, etc., and...

I'd probably be in the red and start losing money. That's an example to me of what drives the creation of housing, to get that income near about +400, then supply the books.

Calbrenar
05-05-2010, 04:42 PM
Well take nomads for example. You can sell carpets for a crapton of money passively trading. Is it worth it to let your nomads eat up those carpets to boost their tax revenues vs selling them @ something like 112g / min?

leatelamon
05-06-2010, 04:16 AM
That's exactly right - I probably should've specified that. "Content" does boost revenue, but as you're saying, supply or natural events disrupt content citizens (ie THEY MOVE OUT! ^_^ sad panda). Not worth it to me.

In regards to your last comment, I don't see why one wouldn't satisfy every and any need - the question is only one of timing. Sometimes it is necessary to forgoe fulfilling something to do what I call "sideways expand" - that is, boost the population in lower brackets to increase tax revenue and support the new supply.

Housing only requires building materials - so I don't think building production buildings precludes housing. Lumber, stone, wood, tools, and glass are always in abundant supply.

TLDR: What I'm trying to say is that the limitation in building production is not materials but rather income - since its imprudent to supply something if it causes you to go into the red. Needing more tax revenue to cover more expensive needs (chapels, brocade robes, etc) is what necessitates a large city.

An example would be:

I have +200 gold coins income.

I have a new need for books.

Books require indigo and paper, and glass to make the Printing House. The indigo will require either the settlement of a new island with that fertility, or an increase in existing trade line or the creation of a new one. Add up all the upkeep, ships, farms, etc., and...

I'd probably be in the red and start losing money. That's an example to me of what drives the creation of housing, to get that income near about +400, then supply the books.

I think you completely misunderstood what I meant. I meant that peasants need at least such a basic as fish in order to be satisfied, which means that you must build more fishing huts which means more upkeep. Since your peasants are not completely satisfied (denying them cider), you will also in addition to that get less income from them. I can go 5000+ back and still make money from passive and active trading. That's why I am saying that in my personal experience it is impossible to go plus from taxes alone.

Well take nomads for example. You can sell carpets for a crapton of money passively trading. Is it worth it to let your nomads eat up those carpets to boost their tax revenues vs selling them @ something like 112g / min?
Why deny them carpets? Just produce more of them!

Calbrenar
05-06-2010, 06:20 AM
It still begs the question as to whether the tax gain from releasing them carpets is more or less then what you get passively or even actively selling the carpets. Clearly one has to be superior.

Look at it this way. X number of Nomads consume Y amounts of Carpets every minute correct? This results in a tax gain per peasant of Z since they are happy. Now if you want to get really technical then the tax gain per peasant is actually more like Z+A/Z+B/Z+C which would be whatever bonus you get from setting tax rate to Euphoric/Happy/Content.

The question now is this. Where does the figure of Y (Carpets consumed by peasants) when sold either actively (56/m) or passively(112/m) fall in to the Z+A thru Z+C scale? Is the extra tax revenue better then actively selling only? Is it better then passively selling if taxes are on content? Is it better then passively selling at ANY time.

I haven't seen any figures to justify this at all. Considering the games math it should be possible to get an exact figure and see which is the best way to go. It may turn out that it is better to give your people low cost goods like Milk but better to sell high cost goods like Carpets (until you're ready to promote)

*Note1 The wiki claims that active selling is roughly 50% of passive so I've doubled the gold / min rates to arrive at the passive amounts.
*Note2 The amount that the peasants consume could potentially be a fraction of one shop or possibly multiple shops meaning that you can't simply treat Y as 56 or 112 per minute since Y may or may not be = to 1 shop @ 100%

flipperwhipper
05-06-2010, 06:24 AM
I think you completely misunderstood what I meant. I meant that peasants need at least such a basic as fish in order to be satisfied, which means that you must build more fishing huts which means more upkeep. Since your peasants are not completely satisfied (denying them cider), you will also in addition to that get less income from them. I can go 5000+ back and still make money from passive and active trading. That's why I am saying that in my personal experience it is impossible to go plus from taxes alone.


Why deny them carpets? Just produce more of them!

Okay I see what you're trying to say. I'll just be really clear then.

While you're right that building more peasants requires more fish and cider, look at the cost upkeep of one fish and one cider building: it's 26 gold pieces.

Those buildings will support basically an entire new section of town, way more revenue than the expenditures. And, as that section grows to citizens, some more basic production expansion will boost their revenue more. It's definitely not a zero-sum gain.

I'm not saying that you can't make MORE money trading goods, I'm saying that you CAN have positive tax revenue and have goods to trade. There's no need to do one or the other.

There is also absolutely no need to deny goods - the only time I've ever done this is to stockpile for a quest. Why would you deny them cider? So that you can just sell it?

Why not produce enough and sell the surplus?

I've heard this thing about denying goods and I'm not sure what the strategy in that is. Someone will have to explain why you would intentionally lower your revenue.

flipperwhipper
05-06-2010, 06:28 AM
It still begs the question as to whether the tax gain from releasing them carpets is more or less then what you get passively or even actively selling the carpets. Clearly one has to be superior.

Look at it this way. X number of Nomads consume Y amounts of Carpets every minute correct? This results in a tax gain per peasant of Z since they are happy. Now if you want to get really technical then the tax gain per peasant is actually more like Z+A/Z+B/Z+C which would be whatever bonus you get from setting tax rate to Euphoric/Happy/Content.

The question now is this. Where does the figure of Y (Carpets consumed by peasants) when sold either actively (56/m) or passively(112/m) fall in to the Z+A thru Z+C scale? Is the extra tax revenue better then actively selling only? Is it better then passively selling if taxes are on content? Is it better then passively selling at ANY time.

I haven't seen any figures to justify this at all. Considering the games math it should be possible to get an exact figure and see which is the best way to go. It may turn out that it is better to give your people low cost goods like Milk but better to sell high cost goods like Carpets (until you're ready to promote)

*Note1 The wiki claims that active selling is roughly 50% of passive so I've doubled the gold / min rates to arrive at the passive amounts.
*Note2 The amount that the peasants consume could potentially be a fraction of one shop or possibly multiple shops meaning that you can't simply treat Y as 56 or 112 per minute since Y may or may not be = to 1 shop @ 100%

I understand and think this is an interesting question.

I happen to think it's silly though - why micromanage so much just for gold pieces, when by the patrician level, with proper tax revenue growth, you never have to worry about gold pieces again?

It's just not that important to make money in this game. It flows like candy by about the 2,000 pop mark.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2cwmwyf.jpg

^^ Here's a screenshot of a recent small town I'm working on. As you can see, I have expenditures of $1,792 on revenues of $2,329, full satisfaction on peasants and citizens (currently slowly working up the patricians). If I recall correctly, I'm also passive trading fish, cider, linen garments, rope (rope is great for cashflow, rarely used, cheap to make and sells for like 100 / unit) and spice. Been playing this one about 3.5 hours, and started with 10,000 gold. I remember I quit caring about gold pieces just about when I started getting patricians.

Calbrenar
05-06-2010, 06:55 AM
I understand and think this is an interesting question.

I happen to think it's silly though - why micromanage so much just for gold pieces, when by the patrician level, with proper tax revenue growth, you never have to worry about gold pieces again?

It's just not that important to make money in this game. It flows like candy by about the 2,000 pop mark.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2cwmwyf.jpg

^^ Here's a screenshot of a recent small town I'm working on. As you can see, I have expenditures of $1,792 on revenues of $2,329, full satisfaction on peasants and citizens (currently slowly working up the patricians). If I recall correctly, I'm also passive trading fish, cider, linen garments, rope (rope is great for cashflow, rarely used, cheap to make and sells for like 100 / unit) and spice. Been playing this one about 3.5 hours, and started with 10,000 gold. I remember I quit caring about gold pieces just about when I started getting patricians.

Well I agree with you up to a point. In a solo game you're absolutely right why wouldn't you just build it? However if you're playing vs Hard AI -- or a multiplayer game (which I do almost exclusively) every single Tool, every bit of starting gold is ESSENTIAL for the first 30-60m. For example after founding on a desert Island I will ship the extra wood and tools back to my main island to finish producing tool loops to try to be self sufficient. I carefully regulate when I allow my people to advance because I can't afford the stone they use to promote to patrician since all resources are heavily micro'd.

From that point of view I would be very interested in knowing what is superior. If I can release good to my people early instead of blocking and selling and show a net overall profit--Then I want to do that EVERY time. Why wait to build a cathredral for patricians until you're ready to promote to nobleman if you can set your warehouse to buy glass and then build a church FIRST before you have the other needs and you make more on taxes by filling the religious need.

Take citizens. I block them from getting linen until I want patricians and have ALL the other resources. If I can release linens and tax increase is > then selling those linens while gathering other resource I want to do that to get an advantage in multiplayer.

leatelamon
05-06-2010, 01:16 PM
While you're right that building more peasants requires more fish and cider, look at the cost upkeep of one fish and one cider building: it's 26 gold pieces.

Those buildings will support basically an entire new section of town, way more revenue than the expenditures. And, as that section grows to citizens, some more basic production expansion will boost their revenue more. It's definitely not a zero-sum gain.

I'm not saying that you can't make MORE money trading goods, I'm saying that you CAN have positive tax revenue and have goods to trade. There's no need to do one or the other.
You are absolutely right, but why would you want to have peasants or citizens if you could have loads of noblemen or patricians that pay a lot more per house which means more saved space? But they start to demand a rediculous amount of goods, but on the other hand, their goods also sell rediculously good, such as weapons. If we only work on peasant level yes, it is clear you can go plus only with peasant houses. If this was not the case one would not be able to progress through the first four stages of the game (i.e. getting up to noblemen). The way as I see it is to expand the colonies by also building houses on your production islands, but when you do that you infringe of the building space which can become crucial at very late stages in the game when there's not that much space left to build on. This is a strategy I have read about which works if you desperately need a short fix of money. The point is to never allow these houses to evolve past peasant level. I haven't really tried it myself on a grander scale though, as I usually find myself running out of space pretty fast (although check Brokenguns25 new space-saving builds with the noria exploit).

What I am trying to say is that I find it hard to for example build a whole island with peasants and citizens only to boost tax revenue as I find that I at some point must advance these houses because space becomes an issue and noblemen and patricians simply PAY more even if it means more upkeep of some production buildings (but again, good abuse of the bailwick should remedy this to an extent).

^^ Here's a screenshot of a recent small town I'm working on. As you can see, I have expenditures of $1,792 on revenues of $2,329, full satisfaction on peasants and citizens (currently slowly working up the patricians). If I recall correctly, I'm also passive trading fish, cider, linen garments, rope (rope is great for cashflow, rarely used, cheap to make and sells for like 100 / unit) and spice. Been playing this one about 3.5 hours, and started with 10,000 gold. I remember I quit caring about gold pieces just about when I started getting patricians.

You most likely play on easy, don't you? I am not trying to sound offensive but 30.000 is nothing and you will notice that as your population grows larger, the less income you gain from taxes. Furthermore, try to add an army on your current financial level and it will go down to hell. I stopped caring when I earned 10.000+/min from passive trading (!) in a very long game I played (I had over several million gold until I got a bit fed up with it...). As I said, I had over 5000+ back, but I earned all that back from passive trading instead.

However, I would like to see some maths done on refusing some goods and the cost you gain from passive trading and the income you gain with passive trading and giving some goods to your inhabitants. I think however the numbers will vary greatly depending on how much you actually produce. Also remember that NPC ships cannot buy more than a certain amount of goods. This should be taken into account.
Well I agree with you up to a point. In a solo game you're absolutely right why wouldn't you just build it? However if you're playing vs Hard AI -- or a multiplayer game (which I do almost exclusively) every single Tool, every bit of starting gold is ESSENTIAL for the first 30-60m. For example after founding on a desert Island I will ship the extra wood and tools back to my main island to finish producing tool loops to try to be self sufficient. I carefully regulate when I allow my people to advance because I can't afford the stone they use to promote to patrician since all resources are heavily micro'd.
I should add that I do something like you in harder game settings where I am not alone or play against a pretty friendly AI, but with for example linen, I simply don't prioritize building that production chain until I have to. Setting up a stable amount of tools, stone and wood is far more important since I can just expand to another island and set up another chain which will mean I can play more aggressively. By overproducing on another island I can also set up a trade ship to ship all the tools to my main island or the island I want to set up a new colony on and then sell the rest which doesn't fit into the warehouse to the NPC, then return the empty ship back and repeat the procedure. I also sell the tools passively while still making sure I have some stockpiled on that island incase I suddenly need a huge amount of tools which I don't have on my main island (however unlikely).

I don't know how others do it, but this is a pretty efficient way of gaining money fast in the game, but it WILL drain your tax income because of the added upkeep. I try to satisfy most needs as late as possible but I don't hold them back as you do. I do however usually try to gather materials for a church as soon as possible as well because church > chapel no matter how you look at it.

I should add that there is a good list on what good sell the best on the wikia.

flipperwhipper
05-06-2010, 04:17 PM
You are absolutely right, but why would you want to have peasants or citizens if you could have loads of noblemen or patricians that pay a lot more per house which means more saved space? But they start to demand a rediculous amount of goods, but on the other hand, their goods also sell rediculously good, such as weapons. If we only work on peasant level yes, it is clear you can go plus only with peasant houses. If this was not the case one would not be able to progress through the first four stages of the game (i.e. getting up to noblemen). The way as I see it is to expand the colonies by also building houses on your production islands, but when you do that you infringe of the building space which can become crucial at very late stages in the game when there's not that much space left to build on. This is a strategy I have read about which works if you desperately need a short fix of money. The point is to never allow these houses to evolve past peasant level. I haven't really tried it myself on a grander scale though, as I usually find myself running out of space pretty fast (although check Brokenguns25 new space-saving builds with the noria exploit).

What I am trying to say is that I find it hard to for example build a whole island with peasants and citizens only to boost tax revenue as I find that I at some point must advance these houses because space becomes an issue and noblemen and patricians simply PAY more even if it means more upkeep of some production buildings (but again, good abuse of the bailwick should remedy this to an extent).


You most likely play on easy, don't you? I am not trying to sound offensive but 30.000 is nothing and you will notice that as your population grows larger, the less income you gain from taxes. Furthermore, try to add an army on your current financial level and it will go down to hell. I stopped caring when I earned 10.000+/min from passive trading (!) in a very long game I played (I had over several million gold until I got a bit fed up with it...). As I said, I had over 5000+ back, but I earned all that back from passive trading instead.

However, I would like to see some maths done on refusing some goods and the cost you gain from passive trading and the income you gain with passive trading and giving some goods to your inhabitants. I think however the numbers will vary greatly depending on how much you actually produce. Also remember that NPC ships cannot buy more than a certain amount of goods. This should be taken into account.

I should add that I do something like you in harder game settings where I am not alone or play against a pretty friendly AI, but with for example linen, I simply don't prioritize building that production chain until I have to. Setting up a stable amount of tools, stone and wood is far more important since I can just expand to another island and set up another chain which will mean I can play more aggressively. By overproducing on another island I can also set up a trade ship to ship all the tools to my main island or the island I want to set up a new colony on and then sell the rest which doesn't fit into the warehouse to the NPC, then return the empty ship back and repeat the procedure. I also sell the tools passively while still making sure I have some stockpiled on that island incase I suddenly need a huge amount of tools which I don't have on my main island (however unlikely).

I don't know how others do it, but this is a pretty efficient way of gaining money fast in the game, but it WILL drain your tax income because of the added upkeep. I try to satisfy most needs as late as possible but I don't hold them back as you do. I do however usually try to gather materials for a church as soon as possible as well because church > chapel no matter how you look at it.

I should add that there is a good list on what good sell the best on the wikia.

Difficulty levels have no bearing on tax income. The only changes are natural disasters, difficulty of opponents, map options, etc. Has no bearing.

Also it is categorically untrue that your income decreases with population size, as is your idea that there is only positive revenues in citizen or lower classes. In fact the opposite is true, ie revenues increase as population and ratio of upper class to population grows.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2eku8ua.jpg

Not trying to be a ♥♥♥♥ but you obviously dont understand the way this game works. Whether or not trading > taxes for income in multiplayer I don't know, but building houses on production islands, for example, makes absolutely no sense if you understand anything about this game.

And once again, hopefully for the last time, supplying goods DOES NOT PRECLUDE THEM BEING PASSIVELY SOLD AS WELL. It is naturally near impossible to have a PERFECT supply line, hence SURPLUS. This surplus is sold, and what is sold changes based on what is being held in SURPLUS.

kitsunegari
05-07-2010, 02:33 AM
In my experience, I cannot go plus no matter how I try and no matter how many houses I build and no matter how much I deny except the basics. The majority of my income comes from passive trading. The problem is that as you expand a colony, you must also expand how much you produce to satisfy, and it seems to be pretty much plus minus zero.

It took me a long time to work out how to get a positive income, but I'm now sitting pretty on over a million gold pieces with a population of only 15,000 and laying the foundations for the Cathedral.

The key is to deny ascension rights, and build lots of houses. The production required for peasants and citizens is not expensive, but what you basically want to do is promote peasants until you have 240 citizens, then put taxation back to contented. This will allow you to start a tool production chain and remove your biggest (early) expense. Then just keep building houses, and get your citizen production chains up before advancing any more.

Use the production calculators to work out what you'll need for your population; make sure its built on separate islands and shipped in.

As an example I worked in 500s of populations; eg find out I need 3 fisheries and 2 cyder farms to support them - build them and wait until the population has filled out, then to go to 1,000 peasants make sure I have the 5 fisheries and 3 cyder farms built before the houses, and so on.

kitsunegari
05-07-2010, 02:43 AM
I don't know how others do it, but this is a pretty efficient way of gaining money fast in the game, but it WILL drain your tax income because of the added upkeep. I try to satisfy most needs as late as possible but I don't hold them back as you do. I do however usually try to gather materials for a church as soon as possible as well because church > chapel no matter how you look at it.

I should add that there is a good list on what good sell the best on the wikia.I over produce as much as possible and routinely sell large trading-ship loads of items to AI players. I don't passively buy anything, but I passively sell all "high money" items at all of my warehouses.

I also use +xt levy high quality items in all my sockets on population islands to get more expensive produce to sell.

Calbrenar
05-07-2010, 06:38 AM
Yep I prioritize what I build off the list too. The issue I've found is that if I play competitively in my games (normally 2 humans and a medium or hard AI) I typically have to try to claim islands early to secure my ability to make carpets/coffee later on without seeds. That combined with having to encircle the island with warehouses to prevent someone else jumping on it tends to be a large drain on the economy. With that big drain early on I can't afford to go ahead and build 3 or 4 stone places which means I don't have the materials to let all those citizens go up to patrician. I typically restrict the number of cits I have until I have tool loops set up as until you get to the 3rd advancement of citizen (where you can build fire station) you don't get any fires.

My issue is mostly that I don't have a set build order down yet. So sometimes I build too many houses other times I don't build enough. Also lately we've been playing on insane corsairs and I have got excessively unlucky with the AI not stopping at my islands.

The game my friends and I have saved it's roughly 2 hours in or so and I'm JUST now getting decent income. I had overproduced carpets for something like 80 min before a single AI trading ship stopped at one of my ports (I spread my carpets out to EVERY island I have and tell them to sell at all of them). I had 1 attainment for each of the 3 +Ships/Money attainments but ZERO visits. I was at -9700 income when I manually sold some carpets and linen for breathing room (I believe you auto-lose the game at -10k debt?) Shortly after that Northrup FINALLY made 3 successive stops at my islands purchasing over 30k worth of carpets and I was able to start building again.

It's because of situations like that that I would like to know how supplying the people falls in terms of profit. I had TONS of tools and wood and building material but I was bleeding cash so fast I couldn't handle it. If I could have built a couple milk farms and released carpets and had some cheap nomad housing on all 3 islands I most likely would have stayed in the black. Whether it would have been EFFICIENT compared to passively selling carpets I don't know--but early game you can't count on the AI to trade with you. Personally I *HATE* Actively selling goods. Getting paid 2k for something that if you wait you know you'd get 15k for just irks me.

leatelamon
05-07-2010, 11:04 AM
Difficulty levels have no bearing on tax income. The only changes are natural disasters, difficulty of opponents, map options, etc. Has no bearing.
I don't think you understood my argument. It was that difficulty level has an INDIRECT effect on your income, not just taxes, in that you will be forced to spend your money on building up your military as early as possible for example. Rad Celbrenar's response to my post.

Also it is categorically untrue that your income decreases with population size, as is your idea that there is only positive revenues in citizen or lower classes. In fact the opposite is true, ie revenues increase as population and ratio of upper class to population grows.

Please, do read my comments in their contexts. I NEVER claimed that taxation decreased because I have explicitly made clear that upgrading is a good thing because you GET MORE TAXES, what I claimed is that the overall income decreases. You most likely don't overproduce as much as I do. I always satisfy my whole population and I always set the taxation at content or happy, but the difference to me is like 1k with a population of 15k+.

but building houses on production islands, for example, makes absolutely no sense if you understand anything about this game.

It very well makes sense if you got the possibility and space to do it. Why limit your income? It's a tactic I've used when building space has been extraordinarily limited on very small maps with a medium or hard island difficulty.

And once again, hopefully for the last time, supplying goods DOES NOT PRECLUDE THEM BEING PASSIVELY SOLD AS WELL. It is naturally near impossible to have a PERFECT supply line, hence SURPLUS. This surplus is sold, and what is sold changes based on what is being held in SURPLUS.

I don't even understand how this is directed at me, since I never once claimed that it would be better to hold on certain goods to for example advance.

Yep I prioritize what I build off the list too. The issue I've found is that if I play competitively in my games (normally 2 humans and a medium or hard AI) I typically have to try to claim islands early to secure my ability to make carpets/coffee later on without seeds. That combined with having to encircle the island with warehouses to prevent someone else jumping on it tends to be a large drain on the economy. With that big drain early on I can't afford to go ahead and build 3 or 4 stone places which means I don't have the materials to let all those citizens go up to patrician. I typically restrict the number of cits I have until I have tool loops set up as until you get to the 3rd advancement of citizen (where you can build fire station) you don't get any fires.

My issue is mostly that I don't have a set build order down yet. So sometimes I build too many houses other times I don't build enough. Also lately we've been playing on insane corsairs and I have got excessively unlucky with the AI not stopping at my islands.

The game my friends and I have saved it's roughly 2 hours in or so and I'm JUST now getting decent income. I had overproduced carpets for something like 80 min before a single AI trading ship stopped at one of my ports (I spread my carpets out to EVERY island I have and tell them to sell at all of them). I had 1 attainment for each of the 3 +Ships/Money attainments but ZERO visits. I was at -9700 income when I manually sold some carpets and linen for breathing room (I believe you auto-lose the game at -10k debt?) Shortly after that Northrup FINALLY made 3 successive stops at my islands purchasing over 30k worth of carpets and I was able to start building again.

It's because of situations like that that I would like to know how supplying the people falls in terms of profit. I had TONS of tools and wood and building material but I was bleeding cash so fast I couldn't handle it. If I could have built a couple milk farms and released carpets and had some cheap nomad housing on all 3 islands I most likely would have stayed in the black. Whether it would have been EFFICIENT compared to passively selling carpets I don't know--but early game you can't count on the AI to trade with you. Personally I *HATE* Actively selling goods. Getting paid 2k for something that if you wait you know you'd get 15k for just irks me.

I can't say how it is with human players, but I have played against two medium AI successfully. Yes, you have to claim islands as early as possible, but this is why you want to start producing wood, tools and stone like no tomorrow, because it will allow you to claim islands faster. I'd argue that doing this is more important than advancing up to patricians because once you got a steady overproduction it will be much easier to build up your first colony either way. I also restrict like you do. Building more than needed citizen houses is definitely a no no early on.

The way to avoid having NPCs not stopping at your harbors is to actively sell instead of passively. The other plusside with this early on is that even though they may pay somewhat less, you have a constant stream of income and there is no limit to the amount of goods they will buy.

Also, there is another thing about active selling: selling surplus your storehouses can't manage. Take for example glass. It's something you ALWAYS want to produce, because you simply don't know when you need it. You can either wait for a ship to stop at your harbor and buy or you can sell it actively. The former will result in that the production chain will completely stop until there is storehouse space again which means a waste of goods and therefore actually an income loss. The key is to ship for example glass to another island, sell it passively on that island AND sell the surplus that didn't get stored actively. That way you also make up some of the maintenance cost for the ship you used to ship the goods.

Calbrenar
05-08-2010, 03:10 PM
Medium AI is a joke and doesn't really require any effort at all. With human players and/or hard ai you can't afford to waste resources. If you try to claim/build too much you'll run out of tools before you get your tool loop going. If you claim/build too little then you end up going bankrupt or having to waste honor buying seeds in order to get the important stuff up. It's a delicate balancing act which is why I want to know precisely how filling needs affects taxes. I may just try some experiments in game and see if I can tell.

It's also not just a matter of value but of time spent. Time spent building goat farms for nomads is time taken away from my patrician rush. Them having milk needs to be worth a pretty good amount of money in order to make it worthwhile delaying my ability to get carpets/or patricians that much sooner.

I come from an RTS game background so these little nuances that seem nitpicky can actually mean quite a lot added up over time.

Scuttlebutt
05-08-2010, 10:49 PM
When you aren't currently expanding ALWAYS change the tax rate on your population to the limit before they start moving out. That is how you stay in the green and even then when you jump population tiers or have to expand for a new requirement/settlement you may be in the red until you increase your tax paying population to offset the up keep costs.

Sometimes it's just better to wait to fulfill your populations wants even if it increases the revenue from taxes you can attain especially at higher want tiers of the game when you have access to buildings that will destroy your income/production revenue e.g. Cathedral.

HermannLombard
05-09-2010, 02:04 PM
Medium AI is a joke and doesn't really require any effort at all.
Ah, I wish that were true for me, and at peace it is true. I just can't seem to handle the multi-tasking needed for warfare. My trade ships get sunk, random landings trouble my coasts, and all this with good naval superiority. I hate the feeling of losing control so badly. This is why I never try multi-player, and why in RTS I want a good Pause feature where I can look around, and preferably where I can place buildings while paused. I'm emphatically a TBS guy.

Calbrenar
05-10-2010, 10:49 AM
Ah, I wish that were true for me, and at peace it is true. I just can't seem to handle the multi-tasking needed for warfare. My trade ships get sunk, random landings trouble my coasts, and all this with good naval superiority. I hate the feeling of losing control so badly. This is why I never try multi-player, and why in RTS I want a good Pause feature where I can look around, and preferably where I can place buildings while paused. I'm emphatically a TBS guy.

All I can suggest is a few tricks that should make things easier.

Tournements: This is one of the biggest things in the game and one of the most underutilized. People insist on selling weapons because they feel that weapons "sell well", in fact weapons aren't even worth half of what carpets are worth. Does that mean don't make weapons? No.

Make shipping loops that take weapons from your production centers and drop them off at your non production centers. Later in the game start moving a little glass and provisions as well. This serves 2 purposes.

1) With proper funding you can now build a castle on any island you own if needed.

2) You can build a Tournment Arena on every island you own and hold medium tournaments over and over... keep them on cooldown basically.

3) Get a crapton of honor and use it to upgrade the trade fleets and military fleets of the sultan etc. Now you can instantly get a huge navy from the AI in case of war.


Another trick is to make sure you're using the flatter option every time it's capped out. If you do that then the medium AI will basically NEVER declare war on you unless you're ridiculously far behind them.

High value goods that you can sell. Rather then active selling surplus goods that are worth big $$$ like Carpets, Coffee, etc, Set up trade routes that drop them off on your other islands and set those to sell them too. This brings in far more money then active selling especially if you purchase attainments to increase fleets.

Show hassan the money! Even if he wants 15k... if you follow the tips above he will typically spend anywhere from 7-13k of that buying stuff from you in effect giving you the ability to have pirate free shipping all game at a cost of 1-5k per renewal. I've even had him pay me more then he charged.

Lastly keep your eye open for duty items. They can come from quests or be sold from the lords for honor. If you get at 5t glass one for example every time someone buys or sells at your island they have to give you 5t of glass for free!

Aranarth
05-11-2010, 03:45 PM
Show hassan the money! Even if he wants 15k... if you follow the tips above he will typically spend anywhere from 7-13k of that buying stuff from you in effect giving you the ability to have pirate free shipping all game at a cost of 1-5k per renewal. I've even had him pay me more then he charged.



I am now in the later stages of my first continuous game. I've been selling him cannons, war machines and pearl necklaces (along with small amounts of some other things) and getting 30-35k per visit from his fully upgraded trade fleet. This means that I am receiving hundreds of thousands of gold between renewals of our treaty.

Calbrenar
05-17-2010, 07:17 AM
I still haven't established how much filling needs raises taxes but I can tell you in my last MP game I released all goods to people immediately and built all improvements I could immediately regardless of whether they could advance or not (like church etc) and I am making a crap ton more money in taxes.

One thing I found extremely helpful was to click the marketplace for a town and scan through to see the xxx/xxx number for each group of people. If they are all maxed then I shift the taxes to yellow and rake in money.

Oggy1985
05-18-2010, 02:29 AM
From my experience - always invest in satisfying ALL needs for your citizens. The extra they'll pay will definitely cover the costs of producing that good/service, and you'll have some extra of that to sell - which is pure profit. Don't forget to raise taxes to yellow when you don't want the to advance. If you do that, and you have all their need satisfied, you could easily score a +1000 gold per tax circle, with surplus goods passively selling for ~3000 gold per ship visit - i'm talking here about single market city size.

Calbrenar
05-19-2010, 11:46 AM
My main concern was really the first 8-12 min of the game where every single tool counts and you don't really want to build extra linen extra for sales. But assuming you start with decent money and micro your tax rate you shouldn't need to sell the extra that early on anyway

ogreballerina
06-16-2010, 12:53 PM
Personally I never bother with Ascension rights or taxes..just left them at default.

I lay out and build my city with Ascension rights in mind...I place churches to cover certain areas and not others( at first)..that way I know the number of houses that are about to Ascend. Then later I'll place a church( or move it) to cover the other areas....some places are always peasants.Just for local flavor..every city needs a few peasants.
Example in the beginning of the game I always build a group of 23 peasant houses in a tight group...knowing that when I get a chapel these 23 will ascend to citizens and open new building options( ore, tools etc) but not enough to activate them all...only when I'm ready will I build the 24th house..allowing for more building options ( firehouse,storehouse etc).meanwhile I'm still building peasant houses just out of range of the chapel...knowing that when my supplies are at a certain number I'll plop down another chapel and get more citizens etc etc.


If I want patricians I'll build the tavern out in the boonies just so it covers a few end of the building block citizen houses...just enough to get weapons .
And when Patricians are going full swing I just destroy the tavern and rebuild it closer...

There is enough micro-managing in the game as it is...

Gabbysdad
06-19-2010, 06:35 AM
My houses have everything they need to Advance, But it takes a Very long time to do so. I have no more room to add any more houses. And I am in the red, and need the money to build other things. Please Help

ogreballerina
06-19-2010, 07:35 AM
My houses have everything they need to Advance, But it takes a Very long time to do so. I have no more room to add any more houses. And I am in the red, and need the money to build other things. Please Help

Find room to build more houses or find out why they are not advancing.Maybe spice production isn't keeping up with demand etc..

By partician level you should be moving most of your farms off the main island...giving you more room to build housing.

Rope is the best thing to sell passively ( at first )...and they only need one hemp field.

If your really in the red...it's hard to crawl back out of. You may just want to restart.