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ixelion
06-14-2010, 07:21 AM
If defending player chooses to block only some of the combat damage from a creature with trample, who gets to choose how the remaining trample damage is assigned? I am assuming the attacking player does, if so then the attacking player can choose how to distribute the excess trample damage to any Planeswalker(s)?

futari
06-14-2010, 07:29 AM
I am not sure I totally understood your question, but any remaining damage that wasn't blocked will be transferred to the player/planeswalker yeah.

L1ON
06-14-2010, 07:53 AM
Players on a team share health, so there is nothing to decide.

Ilsyde
06-14-2010, 07:54 AM
I have a better question.

Player A attacks using an 8/8 trample creature.
Player B blocks that creature using a 6/6 creature.
Player A casts and instant (e.g. Terror) that removes B's blocker before combat damage is being dealt.
How much damage will player B suffer? 8, 2 or 0?

Jynks
06-14-2010, 08:17 AM
I have a better question.

Player A attacks using an 8/8 trample creature.
Player B blocks that creature using a 6/6 creature.
Player A casts and instant (e.g. Terror) that removes B's blocker before combat damage is being dealt.
How much damage will player B suffer? 8, 2 or 0?

read the M10 new combat rules.... once a creature is "blocking" it is blocking... no matter what happens.. you now have to do the remove before your block phase.

mxh178
06-14-2010, 08:18 AM
I have a better question.

Player A attacks using an 8/8 trample creature.
Player B blocks that creature using a 6/6 creature.
Player A casts and instant (e.g. Terror) that removes B's blocker before combat damage is being dealt.
How much damage will player B suffer? 8, 2 or 0?

502.9c If all the creatures blocking an attacking creature with trample are removed from combat before the combat damage step, all its damage is assigned to the defending player.

Ilsyde
06-14-2010, 08:23 AM
Bah, quoting the comprehensive rulebook is cheating. You've now ruined my awesome question :P

Orry
06-14-2010, 08:36 AM
read the M10 new combat rules.... once a creature is "blocking" it is blocking... no matter what happens.. you now have to do the remove before your block phase.

Yes, it is blocking, and the creature is blocked, however fatal damage to the now-removed creature is 0, so trample will completely carry through with full damage.

xFadedx
06-14-2010, 08:58 AM
I learned a couple interesting things playing a demo. Older players may know this stuff or be able to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm a newbie.

1. The last person to cast an instant does the damage first. So if during a players attack he has a 1/1 creature and he cast something that gives his creature +2/+2 or whatever. If the opposing player cast something that does 1 damage to a creature it will kill the creature and the +2/+2 card is completely wasted.

2. If a player attacks you with an 8/2 creature and you have two 1/1 creatures to defend. If you defend with both creatures the first creature you defend with will take all the damage and be sent to the graveyard. While the second creature will receive no damage and finish of the 8/2 creature. This means you can have a chump card defend to take the brunt of the damage and a second tougher card if you wanted destroy the attacking creature without being sent to the graveyard as well.

- The demo I tried can be found here. http://www.wizards.com/magic/playmagic/EN-us/LearnToPlay.htm It looks like the mtg: o version of the game.

Ilsyde
06-14-2010, 09:14 AM
1) True. The spell on the top of the stack resolves first.
2) Not true. All three creatures will die as the attacking player can decide how to deal the combat damage between your blockers but he has to kill as many as he can before moving forward. It will look like this:
- 8/2 creature attacks
- two 1/1 creatures block the attacker
- attacker deals 1 damage to the first blocker, the first blocker deals back 1 damage
- attacker turns into a 7/1 creature, first blocker turns into a 0/0 creature and dies
- attacker deals 1 damage to the second blocker, the second blocker deals back 1 damage
- attacker turns into a 6/0 creature and dies, second blocker turns into a 0/0 creature and dies

hsloan1a
06-14-2010, 09:15 AM
lol, i has been years and I haven't played the demo, but you would lost both of the chump cards unless you have banding.

Banding two creatures together allow you to assign where the damage goes. If you don't have banding while blocking, the attacker assigns where the damage goes.

xFadedx
06-14-2010, 09:19 AM
1) True. The spell on the top of the stack resolves first.
2) Not true. All three creatures will die as the attacking player can decide how to deal the combat damage between your blockers but he has to kill as many as he can before moving forward. It will look like this:
- 8/2 creature attacks
- two 1/1 creatures block the attacker
- attacker deals 1 damage to the first blocker, the first blocker deals back 1 damage
- attacker turns into a 7/1 creature, first blocker turns into a 0/0 creature and dies
- attacker deals 1 damage to the second blocker, the second blocker deals back 1 damage
- attacker turns into a 6/0 creature and dies, second blocker turns into a 0/0 creature and dies

So If my defending creatures can't take out the attacking creature say it was left with 6/1 then the 6 damage left over will still take away from my life points?

lol, i has been years and I haven't played the demo, but you would lost both of the chump cards unless you have banding.

Banding two creatures together allow you to assign where the damage goes. If you don't have banding while blocking, the attacker assigns where the damage goes.

Must have been bad A.I. then. One of mine survived.

hsloan1a
06-14-2010, 09:21 AM
So If my defending creatures can't take out the attacking creature say it was left with 6/1 then the 6 damage left over will still take away from my life points?



Must have been bad A.I. then. Mine one of mine survived.

If the creature has trample it will.

Ilsyde
06-14-2010, 09:25 AM
@xFadedx no, if the attacker is blocked then it's blocked. Doesn't matter what happens to the blocker before the combat damage is being dealt.

- For example, you can block an 8/8 creature with a 1/1 creature and not lose any life points. Of course your blocking creature won't kill it either but will die, that's why it's called chump blocking.

- Another example is when you block that 8/8 creature with your 1/1 creature but the enemy casts Lightning Bolt that destroys your creature. However, you already assigned that creature to block the 8/8 attacker so you won't lose any life points. Your opponent has to cast Lightning Bolt at your 1/1 creature before the assign blockers step to deal 8 damage.

- But if the 8/8 creature has trample, you lose 8 health points with the second example and lose 7 health points with the first example (see mxh178's response above). Hope this helps :)

xFadedx
06-14-2010, 09:31 AM
Thanks that clears everything up. There's more to the game than I thought. :D

Ilsyde
06-14-2010, 09:35 AM
Hell yeah. I know what you mean :) Open up the first link to read this great guide by robvalue if you want to take a glimpse at how deep MtG really is: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1297430

KyuzoS7
06-14-2010, 09:56 AM
1) True. The spell on the top of the stack resolves first.
2) Not true. All three creatures will die as the attacking player can decide how to deal the combat damage between your blockers but he has to kill as many as he can before moving forward. It will look like this:
- 8/2 creature attacks
- two 1/1 creatures block the attacker
- attacker deals 1 damage to the first blocker, the first blocker deals back 1 damage
- attacker turns into a 7/1 creature, first blocker turns into a 0/0 creature and dies
- attacker deals 1 damage to the second blocker, the second blocker deals back 1 damage
- attacker turns into a 6/0 creature and dies, second blocker turns into a 0/0 creature and dies

it doesn't lose power at all so idk wth your talking about.

attacks with 8/2 player b blocks with 2 1/1's 8/2 hits first 1/1 and kills it becoming a 8/1 then attacks the other 1/1 then gets hit back becoming a 8/0 and dying. it doesn't lose power. if the 2 1/1's have first strike that 8/2 will die since the two 1/1's attack first.

Ilsyde
06-14-2010, 10:21 AM
Of course it doesn't but this way it's much easier to explain. The creature's power is diminishing while doing damage. An 8/8 blocked by two 6/6 creatures won't do 8 damage to both because after dealing damage to the first, its power reduces temporarily and can only do 2 damage (and not 8... so at that point, it can be pictured as a 2/2 creature) against the second blocker thus leaving it alive. But altogether yes, it has 8 power and will end up with -4 toughness.
It also dies first if those 1/1 creatures have double-strike.

FeriIuce
06-14-2010, 11:42 AM
Funny how NOONE has answered the OP's question.

He was asking if you could freely assign damage to the player and the plainwalkers he control if your trample creature gets blocked.

The answer to that is no. You decide which planeswalker or player you attack when you choose to attack with a creature. You cant change that afterwards.

mantose
06-14-2010, 12:15 PM
Some of you guys are making this way overcomplicated.

I dont agree with the 8/2 scenario ... I understand what you are saying but the way I see it is ... all damage is put on a stack .. then each player assigns the damage to each creature , all at the same time... then all the damage is resolved at the same time. The only way that would change is if something had first strike ...

I cant think of anything else that would alter how damage is put on the stack but I am sure there are probably things that do it ...

anyway , I know what you mean when you say 8/2 7/1 6/0 ... but that isnt how it actually works and it could be confusing and change some outcomes if it really worked that way.

EDIT- apparently with the new rules they did away with the damage stack ... so I guess I am probably wrong then.

mantose
06-14-2010, 12:23 PM
Funny how NOONE has answered the OP's question.

He was asking if you could freely assign damage to the player and the plainwalkers he control if your trample creature gets blocked.

The answer to that is no. You decide which planeswalker or player you attack when you choose to attack with a creature. You cant change that afterwards.

I am not sure I understand what you mean ... but then again I have not dueled with planeswalkers in the game either.

I always thought you assign damage when it is on the stack not before ...

From what you are saying .. you have to pick the planeswalker or player before combat? And not after the damage is on the stack like you would do normally.

I assumed in planeswalker duels it works the same way .. once the damage is on the stack you then chose where it was directed ... and for trample wouldnt you be able to choose where each point went? So lets say you broke through with 3 trample damage on the stack waiting to be assigned ... you couldnt assign 1 to the player and 2 to the planeswalker ?

Ilsyde
06-14-2010, 12:35 PM
Before the combat begins, you choose whom to attack using your creature(s) but can't change this afterwards. Normally, you'd skip this step because in a duel, there is only you and your opponent so there isn't much to decide.
However, if your opponent has a planeswalker, you can decide to attack that instead.
Excess damage from trample travels through to the player or planeswalker you decided to attack at the beginning.

V3n0m666
06-14-2010, 03:10 PM
Before the combat begins, you choose whom to attack using your creature(s) but can't change this afterwards. Normally, you'd skip this step because in a duel, there is only you and your opponent so there isn't much to decide.
However, if your opponent has a planeswalker, you can decide to attack that instead.
Excess damage from trample travels through to the player or planeswalker you decided to attack at the beginning.

This, and now you assign the blockers order before dealing damage.

You only do damage to the next creature after dealing lethal damage to the one before.

Example:

Opponent 8/8 attacks (no trample).
Your 1/2 and 1/6 blocks.

If you chose, before damage resolving, to block with the 1/2 first, then the 1/6 will take 6 damage, and dies.

But if somehow the 1/2 gets +2/+2 before damage resolving (but after declaring blockers), the 1/2 (now 3/4) will die, and then the 1/6 will only get 4 damage, and will survive.

tamriilin
06-14-2010, 04:18 PM
This, and now you assign the blockers order before dealing damage.

You only do damage to the next creature after dealing lethal damage to the one before.

Example:

Opponent 8/8 attacks (no trample).
Your 1/2 and 1/6 blocks.

If you chose, before damage resolving, to block with the 1/2 first, then the 1/6 will take 6 damage, and dies.

But if somehow the 1/2 gets +2/+2 before damage resolving (but after declaring blockers), the 1/2 (now 3/4) will die, and then the 1/6 will only get 4 damage, and will survive.

I think you have it mixed up.

The one who is attacking decides in what order he will deal damage to blockers.

So, say I have a 6/6, and you block with a 5/5 and a 2/2. I will choose to kill the 5/5 and then deal 1 damage to the 2/2, killing my creature and your 5/5.

It gives the attacking player a bit of control over what his creatures hit (previously, he or she had none at all), and is overall a better rule.

Orry
06-14-2010, 04:34 PM
I think you have it mixed up.

The one who is attacking decides in what order he will deal damage to blockers.

So, say I have a 6/6, and you block with a 5/5 and a 2/2. I will choose to kill the 5/5 and then deal 1 damage to the 2/2, killing my creature and your 5/5.

It gives the attacking player a bit of control over what his creatures hit (previously, he or she had none at all), and is overall a better rule.
And you only need to deal damage equal to lethal at the time when blockers were declared, you attack with a 6/6, they block with a 5/5 and a 1/1 you decide to hit the 1/1 and then the 5/5, they cast giant growth, making it a 4/4, you only have to deal 1 damage to the (now) 4/4 creature and can destroy the 5/5.

V3n0m666
06-14-2010, 04:39 PM
I think you have it mixed up.

The one who is attacking decides in what order he will deal damage to blockers.

So, say I have a 6/6, and you block with a 5/5 and a 2/2. I will choose to kill the 5/5 and then deal 1 damage to the 2/2, killing my creature and your 5/5.

It gives the attacking player a bit of control over what his creatures hit (previously, he or she had none at all), and is overall a better rule.

Sure man! Sorry!

mantose
06-14-2010, 05:02 PM
And you only need to deal damage equal to lethal at the time when blockers were declared, you attack with a 6/6, they block with a 5/5 and a 1/1 you decide to hit the 1/1 and then the 5/5, they cast giant growth, making it a 4/4, you only have to deal 1 damage to the (now) 4/4 creature and can destroy the 5/5.

That makes no sense ... if this is true then what is the point of giant growth now.

From what I gather from the little I have played recently .. granted it is on mtgo and I dont think they have the new rules yet since there is a end phase still(I think they changed it so there is no end phase ... the second main phase is the end phase now).

There is declare attackers ... then instants , then declare blockers , then instants .,. then combat is determined.

if you cast giant growth after blockers are declared but before combat is determined .. wouldnt you get the effect of the giant growth for combat damage?

Did they really change that much of the game so giant growth doesnt matter? I have noticed you cant do damage then sac a creature ... remember those mog guys that you could sac after combat damage was on the stack ... so you could do 2 damage to a creature instead of 1 .. or 1 to a creature then 1 to a player ... those were good times.

but you can block a creature and use the sac feature ... you may not do combat damage but that creature is blocked and wont do any damage to you.

Orry
06-14-2010, 05:23 PM
That makes no sense ... if this is true then what is the point of giant growth now.

From what I gather from the little I have played recently .. granted it is on mtgo and I dont think they have the new rules yet since there is a end phase still(I think they changed it so there is no end phase ... the second main phase is the end phase now).

There is declare attackers ... then instants , then declare blockers , then instants .,. then combat is determined.

if you cast giant growth after blockers are declared but before combat is determined .. wouldnt you get the effect of the giant growth for combat damage?

Did they really change that much of the game so giant growth doesnt matter? I have noticed you cant do damage then sac a creature ... remember those mog guys that you could sac after combat damage was on the stack ... so you could do 2 damage to a creature instead of 1 .. or 1 to a creature then 1 to a player ... those were good times.

but you can block a creature and use the sac feature ... you may not do combat damage but that creature is blocked and wont do any damage to you.
Notice the 1/1 would still survive, and you also do the combat damage.

Also, Giant Growth is still better to stop something like say a a Lightning Bolt(and Lightning Bolt is good to stop a Giant Growth, but...)

And yes, the saccing after damage is on the stack is the whole reason they took combat off of the stack.

Also, creatures with Deathtouch only need to deal 1 damage to each creature they are blocked by to move through.

mantose
06-14-2010, 05:42 PM
ok .. let me see if I understand what you just said .. the 1/1 would deal 4 points of combat damage after giants growth... but you would only need to deal 1 point to the 1/1 even after giant growth in order to bypass it with trample damage?

thats crazy ... the new rules seem more complicated than the old rules ... I think you would have to explain it step by step ... because maybe I am misunderstanding when you are casting giant growth.

seems like they are trying to dumb the game down .. but they are just creating new loopholes and complicated situations.

old rules were easy .. evertything had a time and a place and was put on the stack and whatnot ... so far from what I have read about what you are saying the new rules are complicated...

Ilsyde
06-14-2010, 06:11 PM
And you only need to deal damage equal to lethal at the time when blockers were declared, you attack with a 6/6, they block with a 5/5 and a 1/1 you decide to hit the 1/1 and then the 5/5, they cast giant growth, making it a 4/4, you only have to deal 1 damage to the (now) 4/4 creature and can destroy the 5/5.
This sounds really stupid. Are you sure you're right?
Haven't played MtG:O since the weekend but it should work like this:
- player A attacks with a 6/6 creature
- player B blocks it with a 5/5 and a 1/1 creature
- player A sets priorites, as in which creature to attack first
(using your example, player A decides to attack the 1/1 creature first then the 5/5)
- player B casts Giant Growth on his 1/1 creature
- player A passes on the stack, 1/1 creature becomes 4/4
- player A divides attack damage between the 4/4 and 5/5 creature
(he has to kill the 4/4 before dealing damage to the second priority, the 5/5 creature)
- the 6/6 creature has to deal 4 damage to the 4/4 and can deal 2 damage to the 5/5
- player A's attacking 6/6 creature dies, player B's 4/4 blocker dies as well and the 5/5 loses 2 life

ixelion
06-14-2010, 06:17 PM
So attacking player must choose a specific planeswalker to attack (in cases where defending player has more than one in play)? It's not up to the defending player to choose which planeswalker to block with?

What if after you deal damage to the planeswalker, you still have excess trample damage, can that be assigned to anything?

Orry
06-14-2010, 06:23 PM
This sounds really stupid. Are you sure you're right?
Haven't played MtG:O since the weekend but it should work like this:
- player A attacks with a 6/6 creature
- player B blocks it with a 5/5 and a 1/1 creature
- player A sets priorites, as in which creature to attack first
(using your example, player A decides to attack the 1/1 creature first then the 5/5)
- player B casts Giant Growth on his 1/1 creature
- player A passes on the stack, 1/1 creature becomes 4/4
- player A divides attack damage between the 4/4 and 5/5 creature
(he has to kill the 4/4 before dealing damage to the second priority, the 5/5 creature)
- the 6/6 creature has to deal 4 damage to the 4/4 and can deal 2 damage to the 5/5
- player A's attacking 6/6 creature dies, player B's 4/4 blocker dies as well and the 5/5 loses 2 life

No, you still only have to deal 1 damage, it just won't kill the creature. Check out the videos on their site about trample, along with some articles released around the same time as M10, also the comprehensive rules.

EDIT: Nevermind, just looked closer, it works that way with prevent damage effects and indestructible effects, but not power/toughness gain.

Ilsyde
06-14-2010, 06:27 PM
@ixelion As the attacking player, you're free to decide whom to attack (which player or planeswalker). However, you cannot directly attack creatures.
The defending player will decide whether he or she wants to block and if yes, using which of his or her creature(s) and can also assign each of those to an attacking creature.
Planeswalkers can't block or attack directly. If the defending player decides not to block the attacker (or doesn't block all attacking creatures) then the planeswalker takes loyalty damage.

@Orry So you're saying I can get away with dealing only 1 damage to that creature but can decide to deal all 4 to kill it if I feel like it?

mantose
06-14-2010, 06:29 PM
I can see how the new rules are making the game easier to play :) .... heavy sarcasm there

V3n0m666
06-14-2010, 06:30 PM
@Orry So you're saying I can get away with dealing only 1 damage to that creature but can decide to deal all 4 to kill it if I feel like it?

You can, but you have to state it before.

When you set up blockers, in that case he will attack the 1/1 first, he can assign more than the lethal damage antecipating a giant growth.

Jump to combat here: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/42a

Ilsyde
06-14-2010, 06:47 PM
Thanks for the link and explanation! Though the Xbox version of DotP doesn't follow M10 rules in every aspect, for example:

Creatures with deathtouch cannot spread their damage as desired amongst blockers as per M10 rules, they must still deal enough damage to kill each blocker before moving onto the next. Also, if a creature with deathtouch deals enough damage to kill a creature normally, then this should only take one regeneration activation to save that creature under M10 rules. However, in DOTP you need to regenerate twice in this situation.

Example: I have a Drudge Skeletons (1/1, B:Regenerate) in play and I'm being attacked by a Moonglove Winnower (2/3, Deathtouch). With M10 rules the deathtouch effect happens simultaneously with damage, and creatures only need regenerate once, so I'd only have to tap one swamp. But in DOTP the deathtouch creates an additional "destroy" effect, so I have to regenerate twice, once to keep them alive from the 2 damage and then once to survive the deathtouch.
source: http://www.playhaven.com/guides/360/magic-the-gathering-duels-of-the-planeswalkers/improving-your-playing-skills/mjCV2Dnb5ntz/

ixelion
06-14-2010, 06:54 PM
Ok that makes sense so really attacking a planeswalker is sort of like attacking an actual player.

So at the start of you combat step you would announce "Attack Garruk Wildspeaker" for example, and then tap your attacking creatures. Then the defender assigns blockers, at this point each player may play instants\abilities i.e. protection, growth spells etc, its only AFTER the declare blockers step where the attacking player chooses the order in which the creatures are attacked.

This is according to http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/42a

that is if I understood it properly :P

FeriIuce
06-14-2010, 07:52 PM
Ok that makes sense so really attacking a planeswalker is sort of like attacking an actual player.

So at the start of you combat step you would announce "Attack Garruk Wildspeaker" for example, and then tap your attacking creatures. Then the defender assigns blockers, at this point each player may play instants\abilities i.e. protection, growth spells etc, its only AFTER the declare blockers step where the attacking player chooses the order in which the creatures are attacked.

This is according to http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/42a

that is if I understood it properly :P

Pretty much. You, as a player, are a planeswalker as well. The planeswalkers your summon are simply your allies, and are treated the same way a player is when it comes to dealing damage to them.

lexuss6
06-15-2010, 12:00 AM
Another question: if i block attacking 2/2 creature with my 5/5 creature with trample, will atacking player receive 3 damage from trample?

mantose
06-15-2010, 12:18 AM
Another question: if i block attacking 2/2 creature with my 5/5 creature with trample, will atacking player receive 3 damage from trample?

nope.

Orry
06-15-2010, 03:48 AM
Another question: if i block attacking 2/2 creature with my 5/5 creature with trample, will atacking player receive 3 damage from trample?

Your creature is defending you, not charging through the enemy, so no, no damage.

Djamb3
06-15-2010, 05:50 AM
Just one quick question:

Player A attacks using an 8/8 creature. (no trample)
Player B blocks that creature using a 6/6 creature.
Player A casts and instant (e.g. Terror) that removes B's blocker before combat damage is being dealt.
How much damage will player B suffer? 8 or 0?

Orry
06-15-2010, 05:57 AM
Just one quick question:

Player A attacks using an 8/8 creature. (no trample)
Player B blocks that creature using a 6/6 creature.
Player A casts and instant (e.g. Terror) that removes B's blocker before combat damage is being dealt.
How much damage will player B suffer? 8 or 0?

0 a blocked creature cannot become unblocked via normal means.

mantose
06-15-2010, 09:13 AM
Thats what I find odd ... in that situation you deal 0 damage to the guy because you had a blocker ... even if it was removed by terror. But if it was a multiple blocker situation like the example on the rules page that was linked earlier in this thread , the creature that was removed by a spell like terror had 5 toughness or something ... it was ignored when the attacker dealt damage.

So , in example A 8/8 gets blocked by 1/1 ... and 1/1 is removed by terror ... the 8 attacking damage is still fully blocked ... goes to limbo apparrently.

Example B , 8/8 is blocked by 3 creatures. 5/5 2/2 4/4 , the 5/5 is removed with terror. But the 8/8 still kills the 2/2 and the 4/4 ....

I would assume by the example A ... in the example B the 5/5 should at the least still absorb the 5 points even if it doesnt deal 5 points to the attacker ... or if we look at the example B first we would assume that in the example A the 8 damage would break through completely and hit the player for 8 points.

What would happen if in example A the 8/8 had trample would the player take 7 points or 8 points of damage ... I am guessing 7.

Ilsyde
06-15-2010, 09:19 AM
Trample only carries through after enough damage is being dealt to destroy the blocking creature(s). Because the blocker was removed, the 8/8 creature wouldn't normally do any damage but it has trample and there isn't anything to absorb its 8 damage so the player would lose 8 life points.

mantose
06-15-2010, 09:26 AM
Trample only carries through after enough damage is being dealt to destroy the blocking creature(s). Because the blocker was removed, the 8/8 creature wouldn't normally do any damage but it has trample and there isn't anything to absorb its 8 damage so the player would lose 8 life points.

nm ... I had a different question but I see what you mean .. it just seems odd to me that is how it works.