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View Full Version : Hrmm A few thoughts.


GirlPower23
06-26-2010, 06:01 PM
So I decided I'd finally buy the game. Even though I sort of against people monopolizing on an idea thats free and what not. Anyway.. So first off, no multiplayer? Why not? Playing Tower D by yourself is like drinking alcohol alone, it's sad and pathetic. If there is multiplayer point it in the right direction. Honestly if it had multiplayer I would have bought it for all my friends so we could go at it. Thats what makes tower D so darn good, going against friends, sabotaging them, trying to out last them. This is one magical thing I see missing from Defense Grid.

Why so few towers? Yea I am aware they all do quite well, played through most of the game with ease and what not. However more options would be cool. I find so far the current towers are pretty basic. Look at ELement D, significently more towers, enemies have more and varied resistances. Like some light, some dark, some fire, some earth.. etc. No obvious Defense Grid doesn't have elements however more varied Towers and Enemies would of been splended.

When a free game like Element D basically trumphs Defense Grid at every avenue, I find it a bit sad to charge for it. Even with its faults Defense Grid is pretty fun, however it's not "Great." Perhaps future improvements like the ones listed above would push it to great status. However when I can log onto B.Net real fast and find tons of Tower D games that are significently better than Defense Grid.. I get a bit sad.

fortunz
06-26-2010, 06:54 PM
So I decided I'd finally buy the game. Even though I sort of against people monopolizing on an idea thats free and what not.

I didn't realize they were charging for an idea. Most ideas are free and what not.

Playing Tower D by yourself is like drinking alcohol alone, it's sad and pathetic.

Now that you've called everyone here sad and pathetic, I'm sure you'll get a great reception. What is alienating, for no reason, everyone who finds the game perfectly fun "like"? I don't know, but I bet it explains how well acquainted you are with drinking alone.

The makers of the game are perfectly nice and accustomed to getting along well with asshats, so I imagine they'll look at your suggestions either way, but just for the record when someone with a good idea or two completely buries the idea because they feel the need to lash out with vitriol, sarcasm and massive insincerity, it makes me sad. Another way to go would be to offer the ideas without the insults.

Mondak
06-26-2010, 09:05 PM
I'll have you know that sometimes I drink with actual other human beings. . .

Play the game a bit and see if it sticks. Change likely feels uncomfortable to you and so maybe experiencing that feeling will help you grow as a human being. Yes it is different than others. The number of towers doesn't indicate the quality of the game. There is far more strategy in this than most (any?) multiplayer TDs out there. Give it a shot and report back. . . unless you want to just react more to your initial feelings. Then come back and call us nerds or something.

GirlPower23
06-26-2010, 09:57 PM
Now that you've called everyone here sad and pathetic, I'm sure you'll get a great reception. What is alienating, for no reason, everyone who finds the game perfectly fun "like"? I don't know, but I bet it explains how well acquainted you are with drinking alone.



Called nobody pathetic and sad. I basically was implying it is a sad thing to play single player only. Why take one of the more popular Warcraft/Starcraft map ideas, and not include one of the most important aspects of it? Which is multiplayer. The game is decent and sort of fun, however it missing the magic of multiplayer. Try not to overreact so much.

I didn't realize they were charging for an idea. Most ideas are free and what not.

Meh, has to do with they took the idea of Tower D and are now making money off another persons idea. Obviously is how the world works. dur dur.

Play the game a bit and see if it sticks. Change likely feels uncomfortable to you and so maybe experiencing that feeling will help you grow as a human being. Yes it is different than others. The number of towers doesn't indicate the quality of the game. There is far more strategy in this than most (any?) multiplayer TDs out there. Give it a shot and report back. . . unless you want to just react more to your initial feelings. Then come back and call us nerds or something.

Your absolutely correct, I enjoy the game for what it is. It could however be much better than it is. It's a very basic TD game, if they had made it more complex I'd of enjoyed it a lot more. Yes I am nearly complete with the story mode, done lot of the challenges and resurgence stuff. I enjoyed it enough to buy the DLC stuff.. so I don't totally hate it. Just wish there was more complexity.

There is far more strategy in this than most (any?) multiplayer TDs out there.

If you played Elemental D you'd understand how faulty this statement is. Eventually Elemental D just turns into spamming the strongest towers of various Elements but so does Defense Grid. Once you've made it so long you've got Lv3 everything and so forth. Anyway it definitely doesn't have more strategy than Elemental D and several other TD WC3 maps. It's all about knowing the enemy your facing, making sure you got towers that do 200% damage to a specific element, however other elemental creatures will have resistance and so forth. It gets crazy, because you can combine several elements to create other elements, then you have players messing with you via several skills. Obviously being a warcraft map all the models and props were already created but I just feel they could of done more with defense grid. /w00t Wall of text ftw.

flubert
06-26-2010, 10:41 PM
However when I can log onto B.Net real fast and find tons of Tower D games that are significently better than Defense Grid.. I get a bit sad.

hardly worth getting "a bit sad" over, move on and learn from this. ive found if i dont think i'll like something then i usually dont. got a list of steam games that are testament to that!

neal8929
06-26-2010, 11:22 PM
Actually I've never seen any tower defense games like this that ARE multiplayer. There is a little bit of difference between tower defense and an RTS. In an RTS you might build a base, create units, send them in to attack from any angle. RTS games are easily and often multiplayer. In tower defense there is a track the enemies follow to get to your base. You place defenses along those tracks. Tower defense all started as simple online flash games where you placed down turrets to defeat enemies and never had a lot of depth. Those online TD games where never mutliplayer. If you think about it there is no way this game could be multiplayer unless you take turns defending while one person chooses enemies to attack which would be like a watered down RTS.

GirlPower23
06-26-2010, 11:42 PM
Actually I've never seen any tower defense games like this that ARE multiplayer. There is a little bit of difference between tower defense and an RTS. In an RTS you might build a base, create units, send them in to attack from any angle. RTS games are easily and often multiplayer. In tower defense there is a track the enemies follow to get to your base. You place defenses along those tracks. Tower defense all started as simple online flash games where you placed down turrets to defeat enemies and never had a lot of depth. Those online TD games where never mutliplayer. If you think about it there is no way this game could be multiplayer unless you take turns defending while one person chooses enemies to attack which would be like a watered down RTS.

hrmm? Where is the comparison in RTS Games? Yes it is possible to make a game like this multiplayer. Create several arenas, each person gets their arena. THere you go multiplayer. It could be versus type where you sabotage, steal and everything else to try and outlast your competition in an endurance fight, it could also be one giant arena where everyone has to defend a specific area, however all lanes would connect at some point and then one final guy who picks up the leftovers. Trust me there are a ton of ways to do multiplayer in this game. JUst a lost chance unfortunately. Suppose if there is a future defense grid they put that extra effort and make it multiplayer as well.

Vangkao
06-27-2010, 12:15 AM
From Merriam-Webster.com:

Main Entry: con·de·scen·sion
Pronunciation: \ˌkän-di-ˈsen(t)-shən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin condescension-, condescensio, from condescendere
Date: 1647
1 : voluntary descent from one's rank or dignity in relations with an inferior
2 : patronizing attitude or behavior

Link to the Wikipedia article:

Condescension (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condescension)

Normally this is more effort than I would go to on a webforum, but I just can't stand people who look down their nose at others.

kakkerlak
06-27-2010, 01:00 AM
most people do not even start the multieplayer in a game.
only 30% will do that on avarage..
this thread is a total fail.

T@F
06-27-2010, 01:26 AM
most people do not even start the multieplayer in a game.
only 30% will do that on avarage..
this thread is a total fail.


Maybe Maybe not.
But he does have a point,there could have been a lot more added to the game.
As i see it atm it's just basic but does have pretty graphics.

kakkerlak
06-27-2010, 01:35 AM
I see a lot of perfection in this game not just pretty grapics.
there must be some math wizz at hidden path or something , I keep wondering who the rainman is overthere.
either you see that this game has great timing or you don't.

I don't have a problem with basic myself.

Lurpsukka
06-27-2010, 01:57 AM
I played the very first TD's on bnet 6 years ago and I still enjoy the ♥♥♥♥ out of Defense Grid :)

I guess DG is just not for everybody. This game requires more tactic than most TD's out there!

Mondak
06-27-2010, 08:39 AM
If you played Elemental D you'd understand how faulty this statement is. Eventually Elemental D just turns into spamming the strongest towers of various Elements but so does Defense Grid. Once you've made it so long you've got Lv3 everything and so forth. Anyway it definitely doesn't have more strategy than Elemental D and several other TD WC3 maps. It's all about knowing the enemy your facing, making sure you got towers that do 200% damage to a specific element, however other elemental creatures will have resistance and so forth. It gets crazy, because you can combine several elements to create other elements, then you have players messing with you via several skills. Obviously being a warcraft map all the models and props were already created but I just feel they could of done more with defense grid. /w00t Wall of text ftw.

Perhaps in theory, but in practice this Elemental D ends up with one or two rich players and everyone else quitting. You think it is multiplayer, but you just inherited different builders and end up using their various traits.

That being said, just because most WC3 TDs are weak when it comes to multiplayer that is fun for all players, doesn't mean it is not possible. Defense Grid just doesn't seem to be the vehicle for it.

I think the design strategy that Hidden Path went for was "Do one thing and do it REALLY well". They set out to make an attractive 3d Tower Defense. It accomplished this very well.

zpliskin
06-27-2010, 09:44 AM
I played the very first TD's on bnet 6 years ago and I still enjoy the ♥♥♥♥ out of Defense Grid :)

I guess DG is just not for everybody. This game requires more tactic than most TD's out there!

Which is why it is much better.


also Op,
your name is GirlPower23, nuff said.

fortunz
06-27-2010, 10:32 AM
Try not to overreact so much.

Pot, meet kettle.

GirlPower23
06-27-2010, 02:20 PM
Which is why it is much better.


also Op,
your name is GirlPower23, nuff said.

What does my forum name have to do with anything please explain?


Pot, meet kettle.

Not overreacting in the least bit. Just offering some suggestions.

I think the design strategy that Hidden Path went for was "Do one thing and do it REALLY well". They set out to make an attractive 3d Tower Defense. It accomplished this very well.

You make a good point of the multiplayer, however I like the competition between being the longest survivor. However with that said, they could of worked on other towers too. Why no Ice Based Towers? Yes I know Temporal Towers, but why not ones that fire cold type attacks? Monsters weak to various towers. Crowds are weak to fire, and some faster are weak to laser. However its very small to notice. I'd like to see various things. Like certain bosses that are strong versus fire/tesla.. however weak to piercing, strong to piercing/fire weak to tesla. Many ideas for monsters, many ideas for towers.. many ideas wasted. Obviously Defense GRID can be improved over time. :)

Mondak
06-27-2010, 03:34 PM
You make a good point of the multiplayer, however I like the competition between being the longest survivor. However with that said, they could of worked on other towers too. Why no Ice Based Towers? Yes I know Temporal Towers, but why not ones that fire cold type attacks? Monsters weak to various towers. Crowds are weak to fire, and some faster are weak to laser. However its very small to notice. I'd like to see various things. Like certain bosses that are strong versus fire/tesla.. however weak to piercing, strong to piercing/fire weak to tesla. Many ideas for monsters, many ideas for towers.. many ideas wasted. Obviously Defense GRID can be improved over time. :)

Seems like you understand the "possible" side of the equation pretty well here for sure. I'll guess no element based ideas because lots of others did it before and really they wanted net new models / environment. Why not do the same thing, but with other strength / weakness paradigms? Well I think this is where choices come in. Most games on the market today try to accomplish too much in some ways. To make an example. I have a phone that has a touch screen, it does email, SMS, web, games, GPS, plays music and anything else you might want. What is the problem? It does NONE of these things well and most badly. Tradeoffs are something very real in game design I would imagine. Make lots of options and the game doesn't have broad appeal (only hardcore TD fans can play it or something). I read some developers stuff I think from their website or maybe here at some point and I remember how they had 3x the number of towers when they were in testing. They tried to bring it down to the point that each tower had a purpose (cough Tesla cough) and ended up where they did. Even with this few options though, you have most mazes dominated by guns and canon.

The strengths are:
- Broad appeal
- Pretty graphics
- Easy to play casually
- Game experience not affected by noobs (I am sure there is a scientific way to say that)
- Game modes allow for huge amount of replayability

That is what I have. Oh yeah and if anything, your arguments are well thought out and rational unlike what you are being accused of in the thread.

Mister.Brain
06-27-2010, 06:14 PM
If it's just the competition you can always compare yourself with others on the various leaderboards. I know it's not a multiplayer mode but its something, and I'm always happy when I make it into the top 100.

Again concerning the missing multiplayer: yes, if it is a well thought out multiplayer of course its nice to have, and I'd be the last person to say: meh I don't want it. DG sadly has no multiplayer modes, but you know that before you buy. I know tons of games where I thought: yay the singleplayer is fun, couldn't they have added some sort of multiplayer mode. And if it's a half assed MP with no new ideas on the other hand I always wish the devs would have just focused on fine tuning the core singleplayer game.

For me I can say: I got exactly what I expected and in excellent quality. The most important part of any TD game is balance, and I think DG nailed that part.

twig314159
06-28-2010, 11:10 AM
You make a good point of the multiplayer, however I like the competition between being the longest survivor. However with that said, they could of worked on other towers too. Why no Ice Based Towers? Yes I know Temporal Towers, but why not ones that fire cold type attacks? Monsters weak to various towers. Crowds are weak to fire, and some faster are weak to laser. However its very small to notice. I'd like to see various things. Like certain bosses that are strong versus fire/tesla.. however weak to piercing, strong to piercing/fire weak to tesla. Many ideas for monsters, many ideas for towers.. many ideas wasted. Obviously Defense GRID can be improved over time. :)

We actually designed the game to do all of those things (specific damage types, resistances, vulnerabilities, etc) but cut many of them during development.

In the end they were cut because the game became less fun and more confusing. It became too hard to communicate all of that information to the user in an efficient and useful manner. We wanted DG to be a "pick up and play and have a blast" type of game that was very easy to understand for someone completely new to tower defense. As soon as you start introducing specific types of damage, resistances, and vulnerabilities, the ability to have that pick up and play feel goes way down.

In the end we found DG didn't need all those extra features to be fun and entertaining while still being accessible to new people and providing a challenge for tower defense veterans.

It's very easy to complete a map and make progress. You only need to save 1 core. But it can be very hard to perfect a map and save all 24 cores while getting a high score on the leaderboards. That's exactly what we wanted DG to be.

Rhylos
06-28-2010, 12:55 PM
If you want a super long tower defense that's with other people (granted, it's vs an AI but it's very hard) check out AI War: Fleet Command.

Mister.Brain
06-29-2010, 09:59 AM
If you want a super long tower defense that's with other people (granted, it's vs an AI but it's very hard) check out AI War: Fleet Command.

I played that demo just a few days ago. I only played the tutorial, but it isnt really TD is it? It felt much more like Sins of a Solar Empire with more options but not as pretty of a visualisation. It might be fun once you get the hang of it, but I'm still on the fence on that one.