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View Full Version : A word about the "Better than Developers" achievement


AnubisArc999
07-02-2010, 08:29 PM
This post/thread is meant to pass on my view to the developers at Frozenbyte about "changing" achievements requirements. Although, given the recent patch with the "change back" for the Tower level it may well be aware to them it isn't such a good idea to make requirements for an achievement to be changed.

Let me first setup with my personal story:

I just now, a few hours ago achieved 100% achievements in Trine, the last one being the "Better than developers" achievement.

I had tried this before the 1.08 patch, when the monsters would still appear throughout the whole tower. On my first attempt for the achievement I spent an entire night trying to get it but failed (roughly 50-100 tries?).

Now, after the 1.08, returning the game to what it was originally without monsters appearing in the tower, I was able get the achievement after about 10 attempts.

Now for some points:

1) Granted my previous attempts with the monsters probably helped in the end when I did it without the monsters as it was practice.
2) I know the achievement is not "impossible" if there are monsters because others have done it.


Now, with all the above in mind, this is my main point:

Once a game is released with achievement requirements set to a certain standard, the standards should never be RAISED (made harder) for that same achievement in later patches or DLC or extra content.

The reason for this is simple, anyone who played the game earlier and got the achievement with the "lower" standards clearly has now an "unfair" advantage over those that did not yet play or get the achievement with a new "more difficult" standard.

On the reverse side, achievements are often made more easy in games over time (either via patches or DLC), which I did not entirely agree with, but it is more understandable.
One quick example is the "Nothing Special" achievement in L4D1 (used to be the hardest one arguably). I got that achievement before the Crash Course DLC came out, but for those still needing the achievement, it would be much easier to get it on Crash Course as the entire campaign is only 2 maps long compared to all the other campaigns with 5 maps.

The difference between why making an achievement "harder" is not okay as to why making an achievement "easier" is somewhat okay is that, although there is a change in BOTH cases, those that got the achievement while it was harder than made easier still have the achievement and can know in their own mind that they did it under more difficult curcumstances.

Compare this to the case of making an achievement more difficult in which case those that got the achievement under more "easy" curcumstances can rest easy knowing they already have the achievement compared to those that are struggling under much more difficult standards to get the same achievement that others got under more easy standards.

Thus, achievement requirements should never be made harder. Making achievements easier is arguably more acceptable, but IMO, making them harder is just unfair.

Now, I am not sure the reason why the change was made in the first place. My guess would be that a handful of people "complained" about that achievement being too easy or all the achievements in general being too easy.

If such was the case, (or in any case), the solution would be to add more new and difficult achievements, but never changed achievements already completed by a % of gamers as it makes it unfair for those that didn't complete the achievement yet.

There will ALWAYS be people that will say certain aspects of a game is either too hard or too easy, since such views are subjective and dependant on player skills.

Generally those that say a game is "too easy" will never be satisified regardless of the level of difficulties you add. Or in which case, instead of making a game as is more difficult for already pre-set levels of difficulty, what you simply do is add an additional skills level without achievement requirements. For example, add a nightmare difficulty level but not achievement for finishing the game at that difficulty. This is a good balance in which it will keep both parties happy as for the "game is too easy" people and also enable those of us who like to get all the achievements but not play a level over 100 times before finishing it.

calsem
07-02-2010, 08:37 PM
good point... I would be cool if the developers could give u some sort of reward for doing an achievment before it got easier/ after it got harder. Also do u know where i can find the full list of details for this patch?

noman_ex
07-02-2010, 08:46 PM
Ah hell. It's a bloody GAME you bloody yanks. Sit back and have a cup of tea. Who cares how many achievement you have got. Not like that's going to get you a job.

TJF588
07-02-2010, 09:05 PM
Couldn't one just refer to their Steam Community history and figure out which game version was the current at the time of their achievement-getting?

AnubisArc999
07-02-2010, 09:09 PM
Ah hell. It's a bloody GAME you bloody yanks. Sit back and have a cup of tea. Who cares how many achievement you have got. Not like that's going to get you a job.

I should have pre-emptive my post with "I know some people are going to come in here and post that achievements don't matter". But then again, even if I did, people probably would have made the same useless statements as above.

FYI, I am currently independantly wealthy. I had such good jobs in the past and made so much money, I literally don't have to work for a couple of years now.

Thus, my job is pretty much sitting and playing video games. :p

In other words, my IRL achievements are already pretty well off. I have also traveled the world, learned another language, graduated university with honors, been in the Army, can fly a plane, etc, etc.

So, when your real life achievements match or surpass mine, come tell me my video game achievements don't matter.

AnubisArc999
07-02-2010, 09:19 PM
Couldn't one just refer to their Steam Community history and figure out which game version was the current at the time of their achievement-getting?

Steam doesn't go to that level of detail, maybe it should, like "Unlocked 1 hour ago" or "Unlocked 2 months ago" like how Shattered Horizon achievements work (but they aren't on Steam).

But for me personally, I don't do achievements for bragging rights as some of my friends do. I do achievements for myself, as a personal goal that I want to complete. I don't really care if anyone goes into my profile and looks at my achievement list.

On the other hand, I personally like to go look at my own list and see that I have them done.

Achievements are also a great way to extend the life of the game.

For example, if Trine had 0 Steam achievements, I would have stopped playing after I beat the game the first time through on easy. But since it had achievements, I have pushed my hours for Trine up over 20 hours now.

noman_ex
07-02-2010, 11:14 PM
I should have pre-emptive my post with "I know some people are going to come in here and post that achievements don't matter". But then again, even if I did, people probably would have made the same useless statements as above.

FYI, I am currently independantly wealthy. I had such good jobs in the past and made so much money, I literally don't have to work for a couple of years now.

Thus, my job is pretty much sitting and playing video games. :p

In other words, my IRL achievements are already pretty well off. I have also traveled the world, learned another language, graduated university with honors, been in the Army, can fly a plane, etc, etc.

So, when your real life achievements match or surpass mine, come tell me my video game achievements don't matter.

I hate you *sob*

Well, I bet I am at least lighter than you :D

AnubisArc999
07-02-2010, 11:39 PM
I hate you *sob*

Well, I bet I am at least lighter than you :D

130 lbs.

Not every serious gamer is a fat nerd that hasn't done anything with their life. :p

noman_ex
07-03-2010, 07:18 AM
God damn it. 135 lbs here.

How tall are you? I am roughly 5 foot 9.

AnubisArc999
07-03-2010, 02:44 PM
5'11"

Edit: I might be around 135 lb now too. I haven't checked in awhile. I normally move between 130-140 lbs range.

TJF588
07-03-2010, 02:48 PM
I normally move between 130-140 lbs range.
Same here. I'm about 5'10", though.

Metro
07-03-2010, 08:00 PM
Honestly... no one except maybe people on your friends list looks at your achievements... and even then, probably not.

JoelFB
07-04-2010, 07:23 AM
Once a game is released with achievement requirements set to a certain standard, the standards should never be RAISED (made harder) for that same achievement in later patches or DLC or extra content.
Yes, I think we are quite well aware of this now. Made a mistake, learned from it. :) There's a postmortem on Gamasutra (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/5826/postmortem_frozenbytes_trine.php) that may explain some stuff regarding the last level in general - this Achievement fixing is related to the "whole story" so to speak.

The skeletons were added to the last level because we felt it made the level nicer (as an experience), we didn't really think much about the Achievement at that point.

With the 1.08 patch we've now changed the Achievement requirements back to what they were at release, and that's how it's going to stay. We won't touch the Achievements anymore.

Right... With that out of the way, 183 cm / 83 kg. ;)

Kolossal
07-05-2010, 10:59 AM
Tbh, achievements should always be personal satisfacion, not something to show off to random internet people. Taking achievements seriously defeats the whole purpose of getting them: having fun while trying to.

I should have pre-emptive my post with "I know some people are going to come in here and post that achievements don't matter". But then again, even if I did, people probably would have made the same useless statements as above.

FYI, I am currently independantly wealthy. I had such good jobs in the past and made so much money, I literally don't have to work for a couple of years now.

Thus, my job is pretty much sitting and playing video games. :p

In other words, my IRL achievements are already pretty well off. I have also traveled the world, learned another language, graduated university with honors, been in the Army, can fly a plane, etc, etc.

So, when your real life achievements match or surpass mine, come tell me my video game achievements don't matter.

And making up stories about your personal achievements will not help your argument at all. The importance (or lack of imo)of Video game achievements has NOTHING TO DO WHATSOEVER with personal achievements. Just because you think you've accomplished your personal achievements doesn't mean that video game achievements are something important to get, or should be taken seriously.

I don't need to surpass your personal achievements to tell you this. I don't need to work either and still I think that videogame achievements don't matter at all.


130 lbs.

Not every serious gamer is a fat nerd that hasn't done anything with their life. :p

130 at 5'11? maybe your next achievement irl should be attaining a healthy weight like around 150-160. go see a nutritionist and hit the gym. you're way too light for your size.


Honestly... no one except maybe people on your friends list looks at your achievements... and even then, probably not.

My thoughts exactly, thus the whole reason why getting achievements should be considered something more like personal accomplishment than something to brag about.

rainsing
07-31-2010, 10:16 PM
Yeah, I never expect someone else will bother to care about my video game achievements, it's pure personal satisfaction.

EtherealOne
08-01-2010, 08:50 AM
Steam doesn't go to that level of detail, maybe it should, like "Unlocked 1 hour ago" or "Unlocked 2 months ago" like how Shattered Horizon achievements work (but they aren't on Steam).


Yes it does.

EG
Unlocked: Aug 1, 2010 8:18pm
Completed!
Complete the entire game.

Elvick
08-23-2010, 11:48 PM
Don't really see the problem, since the point of achievements are for personal satisfaction. So long as you know what you accomplished it's not going to change based on a change made to the achievements.

But for continuity it should stay the same throughout. Unless it's literally broken.

AnubisArc999
08-26-2010, 02:17 PM
I still check this forum and other Frozenbyte game forums, even though I don't play the games much anymore, in order offer help to other users of the games as I am such a big fan of Frozenbyte due to their great games and good customer relations.

However, I was most suprised to find the post by Kolossal.

@Kolossal

My response was a retort to another post (if you don't know what retort means go look it up and achieve increasing your vocab by +1). However, the point of your post? Hmm...I suspect a deep feeling of inadequacy that you harbor. Sorry, I can't help you with that problem, since I am not a psychologist.

Yes it does.

EG
Unlocked: Aug 1, 2010 8:18pm
Completed!
Complete the entire game.

That feature has only recently been added, even though it does report dates of achievements from before it started showing up in the achievement pages of Steam profiles.

Incidently, the feature went into effect shortly after my OP. Granted, I am sure many people have been asking for the feature for a long time, but pretty coincidental nonetheless.

sfade
09-11-2010, 02:26 AM
FYI, I am currently independantly [independently] wealthy. I had such good jobs [career? wat?] in the past and made so much money [check my wad of benjamin's yo!], I literally don't have to work for a couple of years now. [really, literally huh? I thought you might have been speaking figuratively... ]

Thus, my job is pretty much sitting and playing video games. :p [social life optional, as every serious gamer knows!]

In other words, my IRL achievements are already pretty well off. [insert list of extraneous bull here, willing suspension of disbelief required]

So, when your real life achievements match or surpass mine, come tell me my video game achievements don't matter. [they don't matter]



//Summary translation follows:

Mom's basement is cozy. :) **

//End Translation.


Changes are fine - it was a minor oversight and corrected. Also, taking achievements too seriously is bad for your health and well-being.*

*Not conclusively scientifically proven, but highly plausible.



** (Don't go getting your panties in a twist, the above was satire because I couldn't resist poking fun at your ridiculously condescending post. Loosen the sphincter a little before something internal ruptures.)

amcdermo
11-02-2010, 11:50 AM
Oh, this game has achievements? I've been too busy enjoying the beautiful graphics and gameplay to notice. :p

Sly_Squash
11-02-2010, 12:07 PM
Yeah so long as the achievements aren't linked to anything of significance, like new game modes or items, I really couldn't care less if they change the requirements as they see fit... and if I did care I'd check myself about caring too much about meaningless video game accomplishments.

AnubisArc999
11-02-2010, 06:00 PM
//Summary translation follows:

Mom's basement is cozy. :) **

//End Translation.


Changes are fine - it was a minor oversight and corrected. Also, taking achievements too seriously is bad for your health and well-being.*

*Not conclusively scientifically proven, but highly plausible.



** (Don't go getting your panties in a twist, the above was satire because I couldn't resist poking fun at your ridiculously condescending post. Loosen the sphincter a little before something internal ruptures.)

Translation of sfade's post follows:

I am a failure at life and miserable, and since I am the center of the universe it is impossible for anyone else to be successful at life and have the life I dream of but could never get. I work hard to try to make myself look successful and downplay anyone else's success so that I do not look like even more of a failure than I already am.

Disclaimers/Notes:

* Just a joke, please don't let this effect your failing ego even more than it already is

** Failure to understand the law of cause and effect might also effect sfade's understanding of how one condscending post leads to another

*** Threads should be read from start to finish in order to not fail as sfade does

**** My own place which I pay for is pretty damn cozy which I enjoy with my wife and daughter

***** I understand that not everyone, (e.g. sfade), can attain the same level of coziness as I enjoy

****** I also understand that not everyone has a hard time with accepting reality as some people do (i.e. sfade).

McChadworth
11-03-2010, 04:19 AM
@AnubisArc999

For such a worldly and successful gentleman as yourself, your maturity level leaves much to be desired. :rolleyes:

Grow up and quit trying to insinuate that personal worth can be validated by a bank account.

JoelFB
11-03-2010, 05:09 AM
I'm gonna lock this thread, this is getting nowhere. Sorry guys - if anyone still wants to talk more about the Achievements, please make a new thread (and read e.g. my post (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15805280&postcount=13) first too).