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fortunz
07-03-2010, 03:14 PM
I view it as the apex of Defense Grid gameplay -- everything the game was meant to be: strategy, maze-making, timing, economics, alien pacing and thinking on your feet.

Obviously, not everyone agrees. So while I don't expect to change anyone's mind, here's your chance to change mine. Why is juggling cheap, or exploitative or whatever about it makes it seem wrong to you? Why isn't it just another game mechanic alongside pairing temporals and infernos or shaping a waves path all the way around a red concussion? Why is shaping the aliens path into the longest one possible without juggling substantively different from making them walk the path more times, and if its different, why is that difference bad?

And.... Go.
_________________________
To all those who describe this as an "exploit"; On Call of Duty World at War, as on many 3D games, there are areas where you can fall through the bottom of the map and shoot at people who can neither see you nor shoot back. That's clearly an exploit. On a different map, there's a way to jump down from a window onto a fence and walk on it until you can jump onto the roof of another building. No funny business, no invincibility, just basic physics. That's a game mechanic, and something you'd expect real people to be able to do in real wars to boot. Clearly not an exploit. What makes this more like falling through the map than jumping on the roof?

Cheapness in a game is something I associate with, for example, exclusive use of bazookas and grenades and rifle grenades in shooters by people who don't want to learn to aim -- they don't even do well, they just blow a bunch of stuff up and try to take people with them in frequent suicides. As I've already noted, good juggling seems neither simpler than just building more towers and making more upgrades nor does it require less strategic thought. Indeed "make the maze longer/more powerful" seems like the more simplistic alternative between the two. If you think juggling is cheap, can you describe it's cheapness to me in this sort of way?

Mondak
07-03-2010, 03:58 PM
I just want to thank you for making this post. It is a good topic to discuss and should have its own thread.

I don't think it is substantively different from making a long path, I just really like playing the game for the strategy of it and don't really love the idea of juggling for myself. It seems like an abuse of the AI more than anything. I also don't find I have a better time playing the game when I do it. Felt dirty inside the time I tried it. I honestly don't have a problem with all the people who are higher on the scoreboard because they did it. I just don't like doing it myself.

fortunz
07-03-2010, 04:28 PM
Felt dirty inside the time I tried it.

And you didn't like feeling dirty? :confused: Is that what your saying? Because otherwise the post doesn't make sense. ;)

Thanks for posting Mondak. I certainly don't have a problem with people who prefer not to juggle, though I don't view the game as being more strategic without juggling. Please feel free to expound.

Offhand, it seems easier (in terms of forethought and strategy) to me to beat the aliens by just building more towers and upgrading more than juggling in the vast majority of cases. As far as beating another person's score, juggling is still hard, more in the planning and conception phases than in mere execution (where the timing questions are similar to upgrade timing questions). I've never had to think harder about maps and maze construction than in some of my stiffer competitions with others on grinder leaderboards.

Kailieann
07-03-2010, 04:46 PM
There's no such thing as a "cheap strategy". Anything that you are capable of doing within the confines of any game's mechanics is equally valid.

That said, most maps in Defense Grid can be beaten with 15 towers or fewer. Anything more is an inefficient use of effort and resources.

Destructo-Bot
07-03-2010, 07:32 PM
I too prefer not to juggle. My ideal solution would be for a compromise... the aliens will back track only a certain number of times or a certain total distance. If either value is exceeded then the aliens will bull through the nearest force-field and bee-line for the exit.

Why don't I like to juggle? I also feel it is a bit cheap. The aliens should have some modicum of intelligence... they should realize they are making no progress and rectify that problem. Because the AI as it stands will allow them to loop endlessly.

So I'm ok with juggling, but only to a point. No nonsense where you have a long green maze with a red temporal in the middle and you have aliens reversing course 5+ times at the end of the round.

stonefish
07-03-2010, 07:37 PM
There's no such thing as a "cheap strategy". Anything that you are capable of doing within the confines of any game's mechanics is equally valid.

People like you are why various exploits need to be explicitly banned, instead of there just being a "gentleman's agreement".

Juggling, Wavedashing, Rope knocking, Skiing, Bunny hopping. Some of these gameplay mechanics got the boot. Others became legal. I'm of the opinion that we're better off without any of them.

fortunz
07-03-2010, 08:15 PM
People like you are why various exploits need to be explicitly banned, instead of there just being a "gentleman's agreement".


I'd prefer all arguments in this thread be directed at tactics and reasons, not people. The above is pushing that line pretty far.

To all those who describe this as an "exploit"; On Call of Duty World at War, as on many 3D games, there are areas where you can fall through the bottom of the map and shoot at people who can neither see you nor shoot back. That's clearly an exploit. On a different map, there's a way to jump down from a window onto a fence and walk on it until you can jump onto the roof of another building. No funny business, no invincibility, just basic physics. That's a game mechanic, and something you'd expect real people to be able to do in real wars to boot. Clearly not an exploit. What makes this more like falling through the map than jumping on the roof?

The aliens should have some modicum of intelligence... they should realize they are making no progress and rectify that problem. Because the AI as it stands will allow them to loop endlessly.

Rectify it how? By just crossing the barrier when they reverse course too many times? Aliens' ability to cross the barrier exists as a fix to the broken path problem. There's no immersive reason aliens SHOULD be able to cross tower paths only when their path is blocked but not when it simply makes their journey longer. Many TD games choose rather to not let you place a blocking tower in the first place, which I think is a superior solution. By your reasoning, I would expect smart aliens to take the shortest path to the cores without any regard to any towers, or in other words, there should be no ability to shape an alien's path at all.

You did say you don't have a problem with some juggling, but you still seem to think juggling is cheaper than making a long maze, and I still don't understand why that would be. They both take advantage of the same game mechanic -- to shape an alien's path, and both for the same reason, to give you more time to kill it.

Please keep in mind that my arguments here are designed to give all opponents of juggling a clue as to why I think the way I do so they can try to convince me. Conclusory statements that I found elsewhere weren't particularly persuasive, so I'm hoping here someone can really describe what juggling should be out of bounds, and what makes it more of an exploit than a game mechanic. You describe it as "cheap", which is something I associate with, for example, exclusive use of bazookas and grenades and rifle grenades in shooters by people who don't want to learn to aim -- they don't even do well, they just blow a bunch of stuff up and try to take people with them in frequent suicides. As I've already noted, good juggling seems neither simpler than just building more towers and making more upgrades nor does it require less strategic thought. Indeed "make the maze longer/more powerful" seems like the more simplistic alternative between the two.

Mondak
07-03-2010, 08:56 PM
I'd prefer all arguments in this thread be directed at tactics and reasons, not people. The above is pushing that line pretty far.

To all those who describe this as an "exploit"; On Call of Duty World at War, as on many 3D games, there are areas where you can fall through the bottom of the map and shoot at people who can neither see you nor shoot back. That's clearly an exploit. On a different map, there's a way to jump down from a window onto a fence and walk on it until you can jump onto the roof of another building. No funny business, no invincibility, just basic physics. That's a game mechanic, and something you'd expect real people to be able to do in real wars to boot. Clearly not an exploit. What makes this more like falling through the map than jumping on the roof?



Rectify it how? By just crossing the barrier when they reverse course too many times? Aliens' ability to cross the barrier exists as a fix to the broken path problem. There's no immersive reason aliens SHOULD be able to cross tower paths only when their path is blocked but not when it simply makes their journey longer. Many TD games choose rather to not let you place a blocking tower in the first place, which I think is a superior solution. By your reasoning, I would expect smart aliens to take the shortest path to the cores without any regard to any towers, or in other words, there should be no ability to shape an alien's path at all.

You did say you don't have a problem with some juggling, but you still seem to think juggling is cheaper than making a long maze, and I still don't understand why that would be. They both take advantage of the same game mechanic -- to shape an alien's path, and both for the same reason, to give you more time to kill it.

Please keep in mind that my arguments here are designed to give all opponents of juggling a clue as to why I think the way I do so they can try to convince me. Conclusory statements that I found elsewhere weren't particularly persuasive, so I'm hoping here someone can really describe what juggling should be out of bounds, and what makes it more of an exploit than a game mechanic. You describe it as "cheap", which is something I associate with, for example, exclusive use of bazookas and grenades and rifle grenades in shooters by people who don't want to learn to aim -- they don't even do well, they just blow a bunch of stuff up and try to take people with them in frequent suicides. As I've already noted, good juggling seems neither simpler than just building more towers and making more upgrades nor does it require less strategic thought. Indeed "make the maze longer/more powerful" seems like the more simplistic alternative between the two.

The immersive reason is that the Aliens decide that they don't like being turned around more than one or two times in a given life and bowl through the force fields because they can. They determine their path is broken because someone is effing with them.

Kailieann
07-03-2010, 10:02 PM
People like you are why various exploits need to be explicitly banned, instead of there just being a "gentleman's agreement".

Juggling, Wavedashing, Rope knocking, Skiing, Bunny hopping. Some of these gameplay mechanics got the boot. Others became legal. I'm of the opinion that we're better off without any of them.

Well, first of all, Defense Grid isn't a multiplayer game. There's no sense in making a gentleman's agreement with the computer.

As for competitive games, if you're playing to win, you use every tool at your disposal. Period. Anything less is, by definition, not playing to win.

If you're just playing for fun, then who cares what you do?
If the answer is, "my current opponent cares", then you can decide whether or not to give him a break.

And if the developers choose to change the way the game works, then that's their prerogative. You adapt.

Also, you forgot to mention combos. Combos started out as an "exploit" in Street Fighter 2, and were considered to be very cheap by people who didn't know how to use or defend against them.

fortunz
07-03-2010, 10:07 PM
There's no immersive reason aliens SHOULD be able to cross tower paths only when their path is blocked but not when it simply makes their journey longer.

The immersive reason is that the Aliens decide that they don't like being turned around more than one or two times in a given life and bowl through the force fields because they can. They determine their path is broken because someone is effing with them.

You missed the bolded part (also the part where nothing in that sentence is about juggling -- just path blocks). If they are being taken on the longest possible journey and they CAN break through the wall, why not then as well? That long pathmaker is effing with them too. Any alien smart enough to know he's being juggled and powerful enough to walk through the tower shields should also be able and willing to walk through them rather than taking the longest possible path to the cores.

Destructo-Bot
07-03-2010, 10:36 PM
It would be a mechanic included to prevent endless juggling. Nothing deeper than that. The aliens take any open path, but if the path loops back on itself too much they will simply plow through the nearest force-field to leave. This allows juggling without taking it to an extreme... the aliens shouldn't be dumb enough that they will backtrack forever.

If you want to, you can consider it a "temporally" blocked path. The path is always closed to the aliens when they reach either end, and they perceive it as a closed path after a loop or two and treat it as such.

fortunz
07-03-2010, 11:19 PM
It would be a mechanic included to prevent endless juggling. Nothing deeper than that. The aliens take any open path, but if the path loops back on itself too much they will simply plow through the nearest force-field to leave. This allows juggling without taking it to an extreme... the aliens shouldn't be dumb enough that they will backtrack forever.


Another way to go towards that would be to impose a tower sale time penalty, such that each time you sell a tower it takes a little longer to actually sell opening the path for another to be placed. One version of Desktop Tower Defense did that and it worked fairly well.

Personally, as I said, I think ever allowing aliens to cross the tower threshold was a bad idea (instead they should have prevented placement of blocking towers in the first place), and it did lead to a bug where aliens sometimes think a path is blocked when it isn't and they cross anyway. As that bug still hasn't been fixed, I wouldn't want yet more opportunities for false triggers.

TBird
07-04-2010, 04:18 AM
Personally, as I said, I think ever allowing aliens to cross the tower threshold was a bad idea (instead they should have prevented placement of blocking towers in the first place)

That is a great idea, I hope the devs are reading this. Simply prevent building when someone tries to block the path.
:D
Hopefully, this will be in DG2.

stonefish
07-04-2010, 06:25 AM
Come to think..
What would actually be lost if the ability to sell towers was completely tossed out?

You couldn't change from type A to B in the middle of a round. That's not a huge loss. The newbies might not appreciate it, but they can't miss what they never had (and they can still hit backspace). You don't want to change if you're actually going for a proper score anyway.
You'd lose the ability to sell stuff at the last moment for a bit of extra interest. Again, not a huge loss (if the scoreboards get reset, again :)), and arguably a way to remove the dullest part of the game (leftclick, wheelup, leftclick, repeat).

How often do you really need to sell stuff if you're not juggling?

Taffy
07-04-2010, 09:01 AM
Imo the reason many think of juggling as an exploit is because its not a well known tactic to tower defense newbs and not immediately intuitive to do, as it takes advantage of ai (at least in my case). The game never hints at juggling as a feasible solution.

Throughout the game you hear the commentator guy talk about slowing the aliens down, reshaping their path and making them take the long way round. There’s never any mention/hint of juggling/making them run loops!

I only learnt about juggling by coming across a single highscore vid on youtube, and was a bit miffed by it initially. But since i play to try get good scores, i accept that its a valid tactic since there's no reason not to do it.

I still suck at juggling (something i'm trying to improve all the time) since i beat all my juggle score attempts using regular maze/tower tactics.

I can see why jugglers do it: if you like to think outside the box its a tactic that requires quite a bit of skill and forethought that adds more depth to gameplay (not to mention its clearly the superior tactic on maze maps from looking at scoreboards).

And i can also see why many are perplexed and think of it as an exploit since it's not intuitive to learn/do without first seeing someone else's solution, and that's why i thank fortunz for sharing his juggle tactic in the Wednesday Challenge thread!

fortunz
07-04-2010, 09:22 AM
How often do you really need to sell stuff if you're not juggling?

Ever play 20 tower limit Risk Exposure? How about 10 tower Service Interruption? Selling is actually an important game tactic, and as for going for a proper score, it's often wise to build flame towers first in Grinders and then replace them with concussions later on maps with limited space or those where the angles for infernos aren't necessarily ideal.

Getting rid of selling is basically throwing the baby out with the bath water. Which is even more premature since you haven't made any argument that juggling is bath water, or to say it more plainly, that it needs to be thrown out. You call it an exploit, but your statement is merely conclusory. What about juggling makes it an exploit rather than an acceptable tactic?

Mondak
07-04-2010, 09:32 AM
fortunz, I have to say you are conducting a civil and well thought out argument which is rare on the internet so happy 4th of July to you!

I understand your point on the extension of the idea of making their path longer. I simply don't like it. That is why I don't think juggling is cheating, but I don't do it for myself.

I tend to agree with Destructo-Bot a lot more here. He seems to offer a way to limit it within acceptable limits. The real stink with juggling comes from people like Kailieann. Trying to justify behavior because no one tells you no doesn't show any kind of real internal filter. Glitching a map because the devs haven't fixed it doesn't really mean it is part of the game world so then you should do it. It means that morals are defined by a fear of consequence rather than something internal that tells right from wrong.

Juggling is far more gray than glitching which is why this thread is going strong.

fortunz
07-04-2010, 11:25 AM
fortunz, I have to say you are conducting a civil and well thought out argument which is rare on the internet so happy 4th of July to you!


Happy 4th to you as well :)

There are two camps, those that say it's cheap (the more gray area, which I like unto nade spammers), but still there are those that flat out call it an exploit. I don't expect you to defend the exploit argument, or any, if you don't prefer to, but I still haven't heard an argument for what makes it cheap either, other than it sort of feels wrong.

How I would define cheap is as I did a few posts ago -- people leaning on one tactic that requires no skill so they don't have to learn to play the game (FPS gamers exclusively blowing stuff up so they don't have to learn to aim). I can't imagine how juggling can fit that description. It isn't easier than just building on more towers and making a longer path and upgrading towers. I contend it's harder and requires more strategic forethought, and indeed, cannot be done well without first learning how to play DG fully. It doesn't get you out of any learning experience, it's just the next step.

I welcome discussion about ways to limit juggling and wouldn't discourage it, but still no one has really tried to reason why juggling is either cheap or an exploit and why it should be limited at all. If anyone is interested, I'm very eager to hear your arguments. Feel free to use my FPS examples, or create new ones if you fell they'd be more helpful.

TBird
07-04-2010, 12:22 PM
It isn't easier than just building on more towers and making a longer path and upgrading towers. I contend it's harder and requires more strategic forethought, and indeed, cannot be done well without first learning how to play DG fully. It doesn't get you out of any learning experience, it's just the next step.


That's where I disagree with you.

What is Defense Grid about ? To me, it is use my resources in the most efficient way to keep the enemy from reaching the cores and that includes spending time tweaking the layout until it's nearly perfect.
As we all know, one major feature of DG is the possibility to create a path at all (many other tower defense games don't allow that) and as it seems HiddenPath had to find a compromise concerning the pathfinding AI (or didn't think it through).

You say "it's not easier than just building towers" - and I strongly disagree. Sure, you have to learn the game first, but once you figure out how juggling works it will almost always be the superior alternative (aside from the maps that don't really allow it). And that's what's bugging me: In order to reach the maximum efficiency from your resources, you have to exploit the AI pathfinding. That means if I want to play for top leaderboard scores or have a shot at winning the wednesday challenge, I basically must juggle if a certain map comes up - it's not my choice anymore.

I am sorry, I don't want to insult your creativity in finding effective juggling layouts, but I beat the 20k roundabout challenge with juggling only and I just felt really stupid having the last boss aliens walking 6 times back and forth through the same maze. To me, it has nothing to do with artificial intelligence anymore, there obviously should be a point when the aliens crash through (i.e. after crossing the same tile twice on one way).
Like I said before, I agree it was very unlucky to allow total blocking the path at all and I hope it will be removed.

hiclass
07-04-2010, 12:28 PM
There's no such thing as a "cheap strategy". Anything that you are capable of doing within the confines of any game's mechanics is equally valid.

99% Agreed! 1% exception goes for making use of game bug to boost score... this is the only case I will state it as an exploit.

Calling for a restriction in certain game feature (worse when one name it as exploit) is real bad... because you can't prove it to everyone else that you sincerely find it too much... many will feel it is a loser's call, irregardless of how you state your reasons.



That said, most maps in Defense Grid can be beaten with 15 towers or fewer. Anything more is an inefficient use of effort and resources.

Not true, even for story mode.
I find many (advanced maps) will be more efficient by building more than 15 towers. My finding is based on final scores (be able to claim a top 30 rank on the leaderboard).

hal859
07-04-2010, 12:53 PM
Juggling is a perfectly valid tactic. You can place and sell towers at will - why not in a way that continually shapes the path of your maze to your advantage?

Having said that - I don't do it that much. I resist the idea that maze maps should simply come down to who juggles the best. Placing the right towers in the right spot is a more enjoyable aspect of the game to me.

I'm glad that the game keeps track of how many towers you buy/sell but it'd be nice to see that factored into the scoring in a greater way than simply resources/interest.

Kailieann
07-04-2010, 01:18 PM
The real stink with juggling comes from people like Kailieann. Trying to justify behavior because no one tells you no doesn't show any kind of real internal filter. Glitching a map because the devs haven't fixed it doesn't really mean it is part of the game world so then you should do it. It means that morals are defined by a fear of consequence rather than something internal that tells right from wrong.

So what you're saying is that I have no moral compass.

Good job keeping it civil and well thought-out.

fortunz
07-04-2010, 01:18 PM
You say "it's not easier than just building towers" - and I strongly disagree. Sure, you have to learn the game first, but once you figure out how juggling works it will almost always be the superior alternative (aside from the maps that don't really allow it). And that's what's bugging me: In order to reach the maximum efficiency from your resources, you have to exploit the AI pathfinding. That means if I want to play for top leaderboard scores or have a shot at winning the wednesday challenge, I basically must juggle if a certain map comes up - it's not my choice anymore.

It almost sounds like you are equating "superior" or more effective with "easier". I admit there are layouts where a little end game juggling isn't complicated, but on those same maps, the basic layout isn't strategically complicated either. Further, juggling when you're not on the last wave is as complicated as all get out as juggling completely falls apart if you don't sync the waves at least a little.

As far as not having a choice if you want to compete anymore, isn't that true of any effective game mechanic? Could you be competitive by using both temporals and infernos but not putting them close enough to work together?

Indeed, you have to exploit the AI pathfinding even if juggling weren't an option. Making the aliens take the longest possible path to the cores is exploiting the AI pathfinding. It's a vital part of the game. I still don't understand why juggling is different from a long path. Where it seems illogical for you for the aliens to walk past the same tile twice, it seems just as illogical for me for the aliens to not take a straight as the crow flies approach to the cores without regard to any tower.

I am sorry, I don't want to insult your creativity in finding effective juggling layouts, but I beat the 20k roundabout challenge with juggling only and I just felt really stupid having the last boss aliens walking 6 times back and forth through the same maze. To me, it has nothing to do with artificial intelligence anymore, there obviously should be a point when the aliens crash through (i.e. after crossing the same tile twice on one way).

But why should they crash through, given that you agree that was a bad mechanism to begin with? And why is it obvious? You need not apologize for disagreeing with me, I'm not going to take something personal unless someone works to make it personal, so don't worry about that. But when someone says "obviously" to something that just doesn't seem that obvious to me, I know there are unspoken assumptions at play. Similarly when others have said juggling feels dirty, there's something basic they believe about the game that isn't being put out there. My best guess about what this unspoken assumption might be about is whether there is a player vs. aliens fairness obligation or a player vs. other player type of fairness obligation.

In a player vs. other player obligation, I think the question is only about who can manage limited resources most effectively. That the aliens aren't the brightest bulbs in the bunch doesn't seem relevant. The rules of the game are that they take the shortest open path towards the cores, and that's that. Games have had similarly odd-seeming rules for as long as games have existed, and the game is always about who can understand the rules best and play them out well. Since the short path rule is one of the most basic elements of the game (in other words, it ISN'T like resorting exclusively to explosives to avoid learning how to aim, nor is it like finding an accidental glitch in a map that grants supernatural powers), it's hard to think of manipulating it as being unfair. How do you build mazes at all if pathfinding manipulation were unfair? And since my fairness obligation is to other players, and they can use this most basic rule just as well as I can, it's a fair move. I don't like to use laser towers, but if a map/alien makeup really calls for it, does it make sense for me to insist other players don't use them so I don't have to to score well?

On the contrary, in a player vs. alien scenario, perhaps there is a need for the aliens to act rationally and the player to not abuse their stupidity. Why would they walk past the same tile twice when they could break through? Of course, that question is trumped in my mind by why would they ever not break through, and thus how can you build a maze at all? But perhaps some screwing with the aliens doesn't meet the threshold of unfair to the alien while a lot of screwing with them does meet that threshold. I'm a player vs. player kind of guy. I think player vs. alien unnecessarily anthropomorphizes aliens which are just a mechanic designed to allow mazes to be built, where juggling is just another maze-building dimension; and indeed, the less cheap one (although juggling a final wave isn't complicated, timing juggles when there are waves following is a task requiring great mental discipline and planning ahead).

I'd welcome hearing your ideas about what unspoken assumption I'm not seeing if you don't think the above is right.

fortunz
07-04-2010, 01:28 PM
So what you're saying is that I have no moral compass.

Good job keeping it civil and well thought-out.

That's not even close to what he said, and strawmanning someone to make it seem like they are making a personal attack, and then layering on the sarcasm that thick is no less uncivil than what you accused him of doing. While he really was trying to be civil and just inadvertently chose a poor turn of phrase, you're intentionally trying to start something, and while I can't stop you, I can prevent you from doing so under the cover of being the civility police. If you want to start a flamewar you'll have to take responsibility for starting it yourself.

Even so Mondak, it might have been less problematic to suggest that "arguments like Kailieann's", that any mech is fairplay so long as everyone can do it are an argument for restrictions, rather than pointing at "people like Kailieann".

Regardless, if this thread is to be civil, in addition to not attacking people, it would help to not pretend every little phrasing is an attack on you. Let's just talk about juggling.

TBird
07-05-2010, 02:01 AM
It almost sounds like you are equating "superior" or more effective with "easier". I admit there are layouts where a little end game juggling isn't complicated, but on those same maps, the basic layout isn't strategically complicated either. Further, juggling when you're not on the last wave is as complicated as all get out as juggling completely falls apart if you don't sync the waves at least a little.


Ok, we probably need to differ here. Depending on the aliens, juggling final wave(s) is not hard to do, but juggling 10 waves probably is.
However, I think we both understand that once juggling is done "perfectly" the effectiveness is highly superior to a non juggling layout.


As far as not having a choice if you want to compete anymore, isn't that true of any effective game mechanic? Could you be competitive by using both temporals and infernos but not putting them close enough to work together?


I am sorry, but I don't think this argument is valid. The use of a certain tower combination compared to juggling is not the same.


a) There are usually alternatives available. First of all, maximizing my infernos with temporals has nothing to do with the AI at all, the aliens can pass once and the effect is there.

I don't like to use laser towers, but if a map/alien makeup really calls for it, does it make sense for me to insist other players don't use them so I don't have to to score well?


b) Often there is an alternative solution of tower choice that yields comparable scores (at least much more comparable than juggling) - though I admit that some maps/modes force you to use at least a few towers of a certain tower type.


c) What bothers me the most is that juggling basically changes DG into a different game. What I like about DG is that it is not very stressful. Of course there is some timing involved, but usually you win because of your strategic choice and not of your timing.
With juggling I need to watch aliens walking back and forth while continuously selling and building towers in the same spot. I understand that this is a personal opinion, but this changes the gameplay feeling close to a dumbed-down RTS.


Why would they walk past the same tile twice when they could break through? Of course, that question is trumped in my mind by why would they ever not break through, and thus how can you build a maze at all?



Indeed, you have to exploit the AI pathfinding even if juggling weren't an option. Making the aliens take the longest possible path to the cores is exploiting the AI pathfinding.


Here I disagree as well. In a normal game, the AI seems smart to me - it always chooses the shortest possible path.

Once you know that the aliens will break through if you block them, you never see it again, because you would never totally block off the cores since it would destroy your strategic layout.
That way, there is the illusion of a working AI - they always take the shortest path, because they can't pass through towers (obviously, it is very illogical that they indeed can as soon the path is blocked, but I can ignore that flaw since I never encounter it).
But once you start juggling, the stupidity of the aliens is right in your face. I understand you could argue "oh, they are still the same, they will still take the shortest route" (Probably they are programmed robot aliens without free will except retrieving cores ;-)

But in the end, I find it more pleasing to create an elaborate layout that routes aliens around and around through strategy than just having them walk back and forth selling towers on time.

hiclass
07-05-2010, 08:14 AM
Having said that - I don't do it that much. I resist the idea that maze maps should simply come down to who juggles the best.

But would you juggle with firepower?
I mean, isn't changing or switching tower type, relocating tower to a better position etc is also kind of juggling?


Placing the right towers in the right spot is a more enjoyable aspect of the game to me.

But it must be complement with the possibility and freedom to reshape your maze for whatever purpose. Otherwise, every DG game would be a matter of just layout your maze, upgrade whatever you feel neccesary, then press a key to let the system calculate your score... you don't even need the process of wave after wave of aliens entering the map.

I mean, timing is a key element of the game, it is what makes DG interesting.

I find it odd :confused: when one can accept tower placement timing but can't accept (or resist if you prefer the term) maze shape timing... they are both "matter of timing" anyway.

hal859
07-05-2010, 09:04 AM
But would you juggle with firepower?
I mean, isn't changing or switching tower type, relocating tower to a better position etc is also kind of juggling?


But it must be compliment with the possibility and freedom to reshape your maze for whatever purpose. Otherwise, every DG game would be a matter of just layout your maze, upgrade whatever you feel neccesary, then press a key to let the system calculate your score... you don't even need the process of wave after wave of aliens entering the map.

I mean, timing is a key element of the game, it is what makes DG interesting.

I find it odd :confused: when one can accept tower placement timing but can't accept (or resist if you prefer the term) maze shape timing... they are both "matter of timing" anyway.

No, I can accept juggling just fine and sometimes do it. I was simply saying that I find it less enjoyable. It's a personal preference - that's all.

Having said that, I'm usually upgrading up to the last round or two, trying to time my layout and tower levels to the needs of the wave. So I don't see the "build it and calculate your score" gameplay to which you refer.

fortunz
07-05-2010, 10:54 AM
c) What bothers me the most is that juggling basically changes DG into a different game. What I like about DG is that it is not very stressful. Of course there is some timing involved, but usually you win because of your strategic choice and not of your timing.
With juggling I need to watch aliens walking back and forth while continuously selling and building towers in the same spot. I understand that this is a personal opinion, but this changes the gameplay feeling close to a dumbed-down RTS.


I don't agree with most of what you wrote, even in this block, the idea that you win a juggling game due to timing and not strategy, nor do I acknowledge the dumbed down part (indeed, one of my favorite RTS levels ever basically requires tower defense style gameplay); however, I acknowledge that with juggling, Defense Grid is a slightly more active game. That explanation (and you made it well) in conjunction with alien sympathizing (I kid, I kid) sounds like it might account for a lot of the resistance to the concept.

So I'd like to suggest another limit for the developers in case they decide to take your side. Before I mentioned time penalties for selling towers (it takes longer and longer for them to be removed with the count increasing with each tower sale, essentially meaning you can juggle some, but not endlessly). Of course, there's already one limit -- the interest counter stops at the end of the game now. For defense grid, which is a very economic game, I might recommend another economic penalty, so that the resale value continually lowers and even goes negative. Or perhaps that each tower sale lowers the rate of interest Or perhaps a combo of these suggestions.

Basically, I hope any future limits completely do away with aliens crossing tower boundaries.

hiclass
07-05-2010, 01:21 PM
No, I can accept juggling just fine and sometimes do it. I was simply saying that I find it less enjoyable. It's a personal preference - that's all.

The reverse is even less enjoyable.
If you strictly don't want to bounce aliens, then you are left with only one choice -- minimize or find the minimum firepower just enough to destroy all aliens in one pass... the process of finding this kind of minimum firepower is much worse then keep building tower at the same spot.

Btw, I find bouncing aliens the best strategy against fast moving and normally more fragile aliens... I can't imagine how much lower my score will be if I can't bounce aliens.

I am sure all of us will be much closer in score without the posibility of bouncing aliens... i.e. I strongly believe, it is this feature that makes big gap between scores of players. Taking it away from the game, to me, is like taking away the soul of the game!

PolarisOrbit
07-05-2010, 01:33 PM
There's no such thing as a "cheap strategy". Anything that you are capable of doing within the confines of any game's mechanics is equally valid.

According to this definition, exploitation of bugs is not cheap (bugs exist in the game and are accessible through game mechanics). Any rational definition classifies bug usage as an exploit. By the corollary that all exploits are cheap it follows that using bugs is also cheap. Therefore the definition is faulty. The OP made some examples to drive this point home, so I refer you to them.

---

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. One reason some might consider juggling to be cheap is whether or not it is considered an intentional and worthwhile feature. USEFULNESS (commonly, the obsolesence of alternative strategies) is a tool often used to determine INTENT. As one example, if a single known strategy is always the best, then everyone uses it to predictable results. In a game where multiple strategies are available, the existence of such a strategy is probably unintentional. However, usefulness is mitigated as a deciding factor because we accept that in games of skill not all strategies have a use, or would be appropriate given a situation. WORTHINESS is wholly subjective, but it is extremely important because FUN is the tool we use to decide whether or not something is worthy. There is some kind of objective measure concerning it, as many people tend to agree on which games are good and which are bad, why that is, etc. A sense of cohesion and relationship between things tends to be a common factor among good ones, while the opposite is a common factor among the bad ones. It is difficult to state more precisely than that, because, as I said above, it is primarily a subjective measure and not objective.

Imagine a Tower Defense game where runners come in waves and the next wave doesn't spawn until the previous wave is cleared. Let's call this game Primitive Tower Defense, or PTD for short. In PTD, juggling is the clear best strategy because it can handle waves many times stronger than any non-juggling strategy can. In fact, if selling is free, a juggler can last indefinitely against unkillable runners. All other strategies have been made obsolete, so clearly it was not intentional. Furthermore, juggling is somewhat unrelated to mazing in the sense of why it's fun. Mazing is creative strategic planning while juggling is quick thinking and on-the-fly management. This makes the two kind of unrelated in terms of why they might be fun, and therefore one or the other is likely to fail in the worthiness test. From this, we conclude that juggling is "cheap" in PTD.

The original point of PTD was probably to have create mazes, which turned out to be a fun thing for many people. Therefore mazing passes both the intent and worthiness tests. However, juggling failed on both counts. So what is the appropriate way to generalize this discovery? Can we categorically state that juggling obsoleted mazing in some types of tower defense and was fun for a different reason, therefore all juggling is a cheap tactic at best? Not so quickly.

Since PTD, it has been learned that tweaking sell value and next-round-trigger caused the relative balance between juggling and mazing to shift dramatically. Juggling is not always better, but it still is sometimes, for instance at the end of the map when effectively the same situation is reached as in PTD (no more guys are spawning). So even though the average case has been fixed, the worst case is still vastly unequal. This can be worked around by ensuring maps are designed in such a way that juggling is not on the broken end of the scale but then the price we pay for allowing juggling is to give up certain kinds of maps. Moreover, no progress has really been made in bringing the two playstyles together, so the answer to the worthiness question remains unchanged since PTD.

They can try to design the game so that juggling and mazing are both valid, but it's rather akin to balancing a needle on its head. It can be stable, but just a little disturbance and that needle tips over. And then there's only juggling. Hey, wasn't the initial point to make mazes?

stonefish
07-05-2010, 06:08 PM
Ever play 20 tower limit Risk Exposure? How about 10 tower Service Interruption? Selling is actually an important game tactic, and as for going for a proper score, it's often wise to build flame towers first in Grinders and then replace them with concussions later on maps with limited space or those where the angles for infernos aren't necessarily ideal.

Getting rid of selling is basically throwing the baby out with the bath water. Which is even more premature since you haven't made any argument that juggling is bath water, or to say it more plainly, that it needs to be thrown out. You call it an exploit, but your statement is merely conclusory. What about juggling makes it an exploit rather than an acceptable tactic?

Okay, fair enough.
The rest of this thread is giving me a migraine, and damned if I'm going to get into an argument regarding why a gameplay element should/shouldnot be removed due to it's cheapness/illegality/buglike nature. If there actually were an answer, someone would have found it by now. There have been a lot of borderline tactics in a lot of games over the years, and any time they've ever gone through a "logical" debate, it's just gone round in circles. You can't debate tastes.

What I can do, on the other hand, is suggest a mechanism for fixing it in the event that everyone sobers up and realises juggling is horrible.

I accept that selling towers to switch them out for other types can be necessary.
But how about the forcefields that go with? How about leaving those on the map, with no firepower inside? (But with a LOS Blocker) It would alter things a little, what with green guns being so cheap because they've had their guns nerfed so you can maze with them, etc.
I can't visualise the whole thing, but I think it might work.

fortunz
07-05-2010, 06:55 PM
There have been a lot of borderline tactics in a lot of games over the years, and any time they've ever gone through a "logical" debate, it's just gone round in circles. You can't debate tastes.

Something being a "taste" pretty much means it's not an exploit. And as for cheapness, though you can't "prove" something is cheap, you not only can make an argument for why something is cheap, I gave a pretty decent explanation of what would be necessary to demonstrate cheapness to me. It's not like anyone is asking for a peer-reviewed proof. The standard here is easily attainable.

From reading this thread, I think you're right. Anti-juggling sentiment is mostly about taste, even though before I posted it, there was at least some suggestion that jugglers were amoral cheaters with no respect for the game. I think that's been laid to rest (though I still welcome input if someone wants to make the argument).

But how about the forcefields that go with? How about leaving those on the map, with no firepower inside?

That certainly doesn't have the problems that no selling at all has, and it sounds like it would prevent juggling fairly effectively. The one downside is that it would also prevent you from evolving a maze design as you go. Though rarely effective, there could well be times someone wants to alter an entrance location in the course of expanding their maze without any intent to juggle or any actual juggling. Perhaps a very small limit of one or 2 shield removals (at a cost?) could balance both flexibility with the desire to stop juggling. Hopefully, if devs do want to implement something that extreme, they make it optional. We could have no juggle leaderboards and juggle leaderboards and let people play however they prefer.

hiclass
07-05-2010, 08:54 PM
According to this definition, exploitation of bugs is not cheap (bugs exist in the game and are accessible through game mechanics). Any rational definition classifies bug usage as an exploit. By the corollary that all exploits are cheap it follows that using bugs is also cheap. Therefore the definition is faulty. The OP made some examples to drive this point home, so I refer you to them.

I think that is not a definition, it is just a definition like statement of Kailieann's opinion. That statement will be quite perfect if he adds a word 'formal' in front of the word confine.



As one example, if a single known strategy is always the best, then everyone uses it to predictable results. In a game where multiple strategies are available, the existence of such a strategy is probably unintentional.

But you have forgotten one crucial point, knowing/aware of certain strategy does not mean one will be able to use it.
Even if someone knows and is able to use a strategy, that does not mean he/she will definitely use it in a 100% perfect way.
i.e. The difficulty in using the best strategy counts or it depends on how much skill one must master in order to use the best strategy to the best.



...
In fact, if selling is free, a juggler can last indefinitely against unkillable runners. All other strategies have been made obsolete, so clearly it was not intentional
...
juggling is somewhat unrelated to mazing in the sense of why it's fun. Mazing is creative strategic planning while juggling is quick thinking and on-the-fly management.
...
it has been learned that tweaking sell value and next-round-trigger caused the relative balance between juggling and mazing to shift dramatically
...
They can try to design the game so that juggling and mazing are both valid, but it's rather akin to balancing a needle on its head. It can be stable, but just a little disturbance and that needle tips over. And then there's only juggling. Hey, wasn't the initial point to make mazes?

Your lengthy arguments is basically faulty because the whole thing is based on one incorrect understaning of the relation between mazing and juggling.

As oppopse to what you have thought, juggling (I prefer the term bouncing aliens) is seriously maze dependent. i.e. The art of bouncing aliens and maze ploting are not mutually exclusive -- they are complements, indeed.

To me, a good maze must be: 1.lengthy, 2.has many multiple-pass-through spots and last but not least 3.nicely support juggling.

a) If you plan to "bounce aliens" then you need some sort of experience in order to create a good maze shape to support it... failing so, though you still can bounce aliens, but you need more effort (you will feel the pain in doing so)
Unable/Unaware of the need to plot a maze which strongly support juggling is the main reason some find juggling unpleasant, I suppose.

b) If you plan NOT to "bounce aliens" then you are only playing half of the DG game... so as your score on the leaderboard, I suppose.

hal859
07-06-2010, 08:22 AM
The reverse is even less enjoyable.
If you strictly don't want to bounce aliens, then you are left with only one choice -- minimize or find the minimum firepower just enough to destroy all aliens in one pass... the process of finding this kind of minimum firepower is much worse then keep building tower at the same spot.

Btw, I find bouncing aliens the best strategy against fast moving and normally more fragile aliens... I can't imagine how much lower my score will be if I can't bounce aliens.

I am sure all of us will be much closer in score without the posibility of bouncing aliens... i.e. I strongly believe, it is this feature that makes big gap between scores of players. Taking it away from the game, to me, is like taking away the soul of the game!

I think all we're both doing is expressing what we find most and least enjoyable about the game and we're not likely to sway the others' opinion. Again, I don't dislike juggling nor am I opposed to using it as a strategy. I do, however, support a penalty along the lines of the one fortunz suggested (decreasing resale value or longer deconstruction period) so that juggling is not used as a crutch.

bigtabs
07-06-2010, 08:49 AM
In my opinion, juggling is an advanced tactic that the game mechanics allow. I don't find it very easy to do, so I certainly don't find it 'cheap'. Cheap implies an easy method to get great gains. It is an exploit in as much as choosing the right tower is exploiting the game mechanics.

I'm glad juggling exists, as it gives me a new avenue of strategies to explore now that I'm proficient at the others.

hiclass
07-06-2010, 08:58 AM
I think all we're both doing is expressing what we find most and least enjoyable about the game and we're not likely to sway the others' opinion. Again, I don't dislike juggling nor am I opposed to using it as a strategy. I do, however, support a penalty along the lines of the one fortunz suggested (decreasing resale value or longer deconstruction period) so that juggling is not used as a crutch.

Then what would juggling suppose to be, if it should not be used as a crutch?

DoubleD
07-06-2010, 09:24 AM
Ok I am new/dumb to the game. What exactly is juggling? And if it can be done in the game legaly why all this debate? Can it be taken out?

bigtabs
07-06-2010, 09:49 AM
Juggling is altering the path such that the aliens keep changing direction, to go back and forth along to infinity (or at least until they die).

You accomplish this by opening up a new route by selling a tower and then blocking off the current one by buying a tower. Once the aliens are nearing the end of the new route, you sell the tower you just bought, then build the tower you originally sold. You can keep them dancing like this for as long as you can manage.

It's more tricky than that though, because new waves are coming in regularly, so your timing must be pretty good.

DoubleD
07-06-2010, 09:59 AM
Juggling is altering the path such that the aliens keep changing direction, to go back and forth along to infinity (or at least until they die).

You accomplish this by opening up a new route by selling a tower and then blocking off the current one by buying a tower. Once the aliens are nearing the end of the new route, you sell the tower you just bought, then build the tower you originally sold. You can keep them dancing like this for as long as you can manage.

It's more tricky than that though, because new waves are coming in regularly, so your timing must be pretty good.

Ok thanks for clearly that up. I would think that is an exploit? Not a fun way to enjoy the game. But that is just me. I have nothing negative to say to anyone who does or does not do it.

fortunz
07-06-2010, 10:34 AM
Ok thanks for clearly that up. I would think that is an exploit? Not a fun way to enjoy the game. But that is just me. I have nothing negative to say to anyone who does or does not do it.

Doing it in practice is rather different from hearing it described. Juggling is an extension of maze making -- it adds a dimension to it. Running aliens past one tower to infinity is an extreme that doesn't so much happen in a real game. It's really an advanced gameplay tactic with all the same skills you use before you knew juggling existed. The better you know those base skills, the better a juggler you are.

I'm not actually trying to convert you, but I might encourage you to consider the examples in the first post for what an exploit and cheap tactic are, and then practice a little juggling before deciding. Especially with regard to "funness". Juggling is a challenge, and a cerebral one. It's no cakewalk (unless you're copying someone's youtube, and that's no fun whether you're juggling or not).

DoubleD
07-06-2010, 11:36 AM
I hear/see what your saying. It would also need some skill to do this as was mentioned. Knowing when to sell/build etc. Yes it does add a new gameplay. I guess I may try this in a practice round just to get a feel. I would think it is harder then it sounds?

fortunz
07-06-2010, 11:46 AM
I hear/see what your saying. It would also need some skill to do this as was mentioned. Knowing when to sell/build etc. Yes it does add a new gameplay. I guess I may try this in a practice round just to get a feel. I would think it is harder then it sounds?

Depends on what you're juggling. The last wave of anything, especially if slow bosses is obviously not going to be that hard. I would retort that not juggling isn't super hard at the end, especially with slow bosses. You're typically flush with cash then and adding a few towers isn't much a challenge either. My guess is, end game juggling is what a lot of the opponents of it think of. But juggling mid and early game (where a lot of high scorers do it) and building the maze up around juggling can be very difficult and presents some interesting maze challenges. Grinder and Super Grinder are common places to put this to the test because of the high interest potential.

Crazy Croc
07-06-2010, 02:30 PM
I fail to see why some peeps thinks juggling is ok just because it needs some skill?

Frankly I don't think the fact that on open field maps where normal shaping is part of the intended gameplay opens up an exploit whereby an alien will not pass through a tower if there is a valid path makes it ok to bounce them around. Saying ye, but if Joe does it, I also need to do it if i want to beat his score does not make it right?

Building a long, but no bounce maze is fine and can not be seen in the same light as juggling. Ultimately one is at mercy of points/cash earned when deciding on either going long or holding back and rather upgrading existing towers.

For me the answer is rather simple - juggling was never the intended or needed tactic, it is just an unfortunate by product of the game mechanics.

Echo
07-06-2010, 02:47 PM
Just for some background; we thought about this a bit, since it was a big issue for some in Desktop Tower Defense (juggling required to get top scores).

Originally, we were just going to not let you place a tower if you completely blocked off the path, but it is hard to explain why to a new player (especially in a story/world context), although I guess eventually we found that pathing through towers required just as much explanation (hence the popup notes when that happens).

Because you can't juggle every map, it's more difficult to juggle because of the puzzle aspect, our waves overlap more and so you have to be much more careful than in DTD, you have to deal with the sale penalty, and it only affects the top of high scores, we decided to leave it in as an interesting mechanic that came into play some of the time.

Juggle is less in the spirit of a strategy game, and a little more tactical though.

(There are also interesting places where you might want to build over the path completely, like Ancient Research).

Anyways, this is an interesting thread :)

BTW, even with the rule of 'you can't put down a tower that cuts off the path', juggling still works.

DesktopMan
07-06-2010, 03:05 PM
I'd personally prefer if you couldn't place towers that blocked the path, like in many other tower defense games. It just doesn't feel like a real proper game mechanic.

fortunz
07-06-2010, 03:10 PM
BTW, even with the rule of 'you can't put down a tower that cuts off the path', juggling still works.

Most of our discussion about that as a better rule revolved around whether a flaw in the AI's programming was being improperly exploited or not by jugglers, not as a measure to prevent juggling. Some were of the opinion that if aliens were going past the same tower oh so many times as they were juggled, it would only make sense that they should just walk through it. I pointed out that there's no reason an alien shouldn't walk through a tower every time it makes his path longer if one wants him to be smart. In addition to causing a conceptual problem of why an alien would ever not walk straight through a maze and as it is the cause of the bug that allows aliens to pass through towers even when there is no blockage, this mechanism tends to confuse people, which is why I hope you go a different direction DG2 -- no blocking tower placement. Also sometimes people block paths accidentally when mazes and platform layouts are complicated enough, and it would be easier to fix if they knew the path was going to be blocked before they laid the tower down.

Thanks for reading and responding.

I fail to see why some peeps thinks juggling is ok just because it needs some skill?

I haven't seen anyone suggest that it is okay just because it involves skill. In context you'll see that that is a counter argument to the notion that the practice is "cheap". That it requires a proper and even advanced understanding of the game means it isn't like most cheap tactics in games that allow people to bypass basic game skills and not have to learn how to play. In other words, Juggling is not like nade spamming.

hiclass
07-06-2010, 03:54 PM
Juggle is less in the spirit of a strategy game, and a little more tactical though.

Agree!

I like your phase "a little more tactical though", very very much!

Compare to something like

I fail to see why some peeps thinks juggling is ok just because it needs some skill?


To juggle better than other jugglers, you won't want to depends only on skill of timing, you will need a good strategy.

e.g. Juggle with one way before the last wave of aliens and with a different way when dealling with the last wave is strategic.

Juggling is definitely strategic among the jugglers...hehehe!

hal859
07-06-2010, 05:10 PM
Then what would juggling suppose to be, if it should not be used as a crutch?

I only mean that in my own sense of enjoyment of the game. As I've said all along I appreciate that it is a tactic that can be employed on some of the maps and it definitely takes skill and planning.

stonefish
07-06-2010, 07:51 PM
As one example, if a single known strategy is always the best, then everyone uses it to predictable results.

This is actually my argument against the "sell everything off at the end" strategy.

It's absolutely effective and could not possibly be considered cheating. It is, however, terribly dull and almost foolproof. It's one single technique that you simply must adhere to at the end of every map, with practically zero possibility of variation.

DoubleD
07-06-2010, 08:07 PM
So it all comes down to trying to get the highest score. I never really looked at my score. I am to busy just trying to beat the level. ;)

PolarisOrbit
07-06-2010, 10:41 PM
I think that is not a definition, it is
But you have forgotten one crucial point, knowing/aware of certain strategy does not mean one will be able to use it.
Even if someone knows and is able to use a strategy, that does not mean he/she will definitely use it in a 100% perfect way.
i.e. The difficulty in using the best strategy counts or it depends on how much skill one must master in order to use the best strategy to the best.

That is not what I said. I expressly noted that the strategy had to be known, which is essentially your reasoning for why my argument was faulty.




Your lengthy arguments is basically faulty because the whole thing is based on one incorrect understaning of the relation between mazing and juggling.

As oppopse to what you have thought, juggling (I prefer the term bouncing aliens) is seriously maze dependent. i.e. The art of bouncing aliens and maze ploting are not mutually exclusive -- they are complements, indeed.

To me, a good maze must be: 1.lengthy, 2.has many multiple-pass-through spots and last but not least 3.nicely support juggling.

a) If you plan to "bounce aliens" then you need some sort of experience in order to create a good maze shape to support it... failing so, though you still can bounce aliens, but you need more effort (you will feel the pain in doing so)
Unable/Unaware of the need to plot a maze which strongly support juggling is the main reason some find juggling unpleasant, I suppose.

b) If you plan NOT to "bounce aliens" then you are only playing half of the DG game... so as your score on the leaderboard, I suppose.

Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough but I didn't mean to imply that juggling does not involve the construction of a maze, but I used the term "mazing" as a catch-all for the strategy that does not use juggling. If you know of a better term for this, let me know. So I apologize if I wasn't clear enough, but your whole post was irrelevant to my point :)

PolarisOrbit
07-06-2010, 11:57 PM
Well, fortunz if you're only going to check replies that follow your terminology then I guess I'll have to revise my previous comments to match the way you constructed things, which is slightly different from how I view them. (If I missed your response then I apologize, but I didn't see one after scanning)


Cheapness in a game is something I associate with, for example, exclusive use of bazookas and grenades and rifle grenades in shooters by people who don't want to learn to aim -- they don't even do well, they just blow a bunch of stuff up and try to take people with them in frequent suicides.

It's interesting to note that you explain cheapness in terms of an association. Moreover, the example is directed to PLAYER INTENT rather than GAMEPLAY. From the outset, it appears impossible to determine that a game mechanic is cheap using this construction, since the same mechanic (usage of bazooka, grenades, rifle) can be either cheap or not cheap, depending on why the player is using it. But you opened the topic asking for people to convince you about a mechanic's cheapness, so something's gotta give. I posit that it's the way in which you are associating cheapness.

Without explicitly mentioning so, I corrected this inconsistency in my previous post by changing the perspective from player intent to designer intent (giving one exemplary measure on how intent can be determined). "Intent" is an imprecise word here, because I am talking about an idealized designer; not an actual person. Hopefully that makes my meaning more clear.

Next, I added the extra criteria of worthiness. I feel it is even more crucial than intent. Worthiness is important because, as your example keenly pointed out, players are not always rewarded for playing cheaply. Sometimes they still suck, or the cheap strategy was not directed to improving their score in the first place. These kinds of things are likely to pass any Intent-based test, but we still consider them cheap. Why? Whatever that reason is, I call it "worthiness". Most of the time, it because those kinds of things take the fun out of the activity you signed on for. Fun is obviously subjective-- for instance, it quite likely that the person employing the "cheap" strategy (eg. suicidal bazooka) is having fun. Even if someone uses the very same "cheap" strategy against him, he will continue to have fun and may even feel validation that it's not so cheap anymore. So fun itself cannot be the criteria for worthiness because there is no consensus, but as I noted in the previous post, there are some objective characteristics to it.

Anyway, I already got called out in this topic for making too long of a post so I'll stop there for now. Let me know what you think of my framework before I use it to draw further conclusions.

Verbal1970
07-07-2010, 12:48 AM
which is why I hope you go a different direction DG2 -- no blocking tower placement. Also sometimes people block paths accidentally when mazes and platform layouts are complicated enough, and it would be easier to fix if they knew the path was going to be blocked before they laid the tower down.
Now this is an awesome idea. I've, on a few occasions, accidentally blocked their path only to discover it when my cores were getting taken. Having a path block warning happen before allowing the blocking tower to be placed would be a great. I know this is off the juggling subject but I just wanted to make note of this idea for DG2.

TBird
07-07-2010, 01:01 AM
... you have to deal with the sale penalty, and it only affects the top of high scores, we decided to leave it in as an interesting mechanic that came into play some of the time.


You do realize that the way the interest system works it may not be a penalty at all ? Since you lose only 25 credits for selling a lvl 1 gun tower, it's usually a no brainer since you will gain more interest in the time the aliens are juggled than you lost thorugh the sale penalty.
I'm pretty sure some people figured out mazes with sub optimal firepower in order to maximize their result through interest.



BTW, even with the rule of 'you can't put down a tower that cuts off the path', juggling still works.

Oh, that's true. :(

hiclass
07-07-2010, 02:27 AM
It's absolutely effective and could not possibly be considered cheating. It is, however, terribly dull and almost foolproof. It's one single technique that you simply must adhere to at the end of every map, with practically zero possibility of variation.

Not true!

1. You can for example sell towers only after the last alien in the last wave moved out from their shooting range. (easist)

2. You can sell towers even before some aliens in the last wave move into their shooting range. You only need to keep enough towers to kill them all. (you need to try an error)

3. You can even sell towers until your firepower is lower than enough. Use your orbital laser, please. (This strategy is good if you know only few fast moving aliens will survive at the end and they are cheap compare to the interest gain by selling expensive towers.)

So, as above, there are variations indeed, it depends on your seriousness in squeezing every bit of resource out of interest.

hiclass
07-07-2010, 02:46 AM
That is not what I said. I expressly noted that the strategy had to be known, which is essentially your reasoning for why my argument was faulty.

I think you have misunderstood my argument.
I just want to point out that, even if everyone knows and uses the best strategy in a game, their result won't be predictable.
We human being has different ability in doing certain thing in the same way, am I right? :)


Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough but I didn't mean to imply that juggling does not involve the construction of a maze, but I used the term "mazing" as a catch-all for the strategy that does not use juggling. If you know of a better term for this, let me know. So I apologize if I wasn't clear enough, but your whole post was irrelevant to my point :)

The term does not matter.
Just go read again for what you have stated, I am sorry but I find it implying juggling and mazing are unrelated, quite clearly.

hiclass
07-07-2010, 03:03 AM
Since you lose only 25 credits for selling a lvl 1 gun tower, it's usually a no brainer since you will gain more interest in the time the aliens are juggled than you lost thorugh the sale penalty.


Umm...

Juggling is to minumize or reduce the number of towers need to build or upgrade... that increase the interst you gain because you have (spent less and you will keep) relatively bigger resource to claim for interst.

It does not give you more interest only when alien are being bounced inside your maze. Whatever resource it help you to save will count into interest towards the end of the game.
i.e. It has nothing to do with how long the time alien are being bounced inside your maze... they just need to die at the end.

TBird
07-07-2010, 03:09 AM
Umm...

i.e. It has nothing to do with how long the time alien are being bounced inside your maze... .

Really ? :confused:

I was under the impression that interest is time based, so the longer you juggle the more interest you gain. Am I incorrect ?
I noticed that i.e. at the beginning of the challenge if you only build one tower and wait for the aliens to arrive every few seconds you gain interest.

fortunz
07-07-2010, 11:56 AM
Well, fortunz if you're only going to check replies that follow your terminology

Virtually no one adopted my terminology; indeed, almost no one in the thread tried to make a real argument using anyone's terminology that juggling is either cheap or an exploit beyond "it feels that way". I offered the terminology in case it might help someone make the argument -- as an example to help get past the "feeling" stage of the argument, not as a requirement.

I don't recall why I missed your post but I imagine I was busy responding to someone else's or I thought yours was directed at someone else.

Without explicitly mentioning so, I corrected this inconsistency

There's no inconsistency. Juggling is a tactic, just like nade spamming (the exclusive use of explosives). And nade spamming is always cheap even though nades aren't. The game mechanics at play on this issue are selling towers and alien pathfinding.

in my previous post by changing the perspective from player intent to designer intent (giving one exemplary measure on how intent can be determined). "Intent" is an imprecise word here, because I am talking about an idealized designer; not an actual person. Hopefully that makes my meaning more clear.

Not really clearer, so I'll go back and hunt down that post to figure it out sometime. But here is the actual team's intent:
Because you can't juggle every map, it's more difficult to juggle because of the puzzle aspect, our waves overlap more and so you have to be much more careful than in DTD, you have to deal with the sale penalty, and it only affects the top of high scores, we decided to leave it in as an interesting mechanic that came into play some of the time.

As to length, unless you got called out by a mod, feel free to post long, I certainly do. When I go back to try and figure out intent, I'll also try and figure out what your worthiness argument is.

Mondak
07-07-2010, 03:33 PM
Thanks for getting my back earlier fortunz. I have to admit though looking back, that I could have chosen better words for Kailieann to make my point.

I am glad you took the initiative to make this post. Lots of people have weighed in including a response from Hidden Path! It is always cool when the developer takes an ongoing interest in what people think of the game.

I think he summed it up for me pretty well. I really enjoy the strategic aspect of the game and don't find the tactical aspect quite as rewarding. I realize if someone does both, it will likely yield a better score. I really didn't consider scores too much until after I got gold on every mode of every map they put out - I just wanted to get the golds. That seems consistent with the idea that I don't care if others do it - I just don't choose it for myself.

The idea I still don't like though is not specific to juggling or DG at all, but to the responses that seem to indicate that anything that is in the game, one should do no matter what. So if one can glitch a shipping crate or get under the map floor, they should do it. The justification seems to usually come from a contrived "if it wasn't intended, they would not have left it in" which is such garbage it is unreal.

Most of the time people who act this way in games have difficulty figuring out how to properly treat their fellow man in general. Often we can chalk it up to the kid who gets beat up at school physically and/or emotionally and use a faceless online environment to get back at people who are finally helpless (above the floor, outside the crate, etc.) to defend themselves against the now "empowered" person. You would think this person would be the last one to treat people this way, but it is the modern version of going home and kicking your dog. The problem is that this type of behavior is either highly temporary (they tasted "revenge" and it made them feel guilty/worse after being exposed in some small way to someone they hurt) or it becomes en-grained in their personality.

There exists in the world (or even just in gaming) a massive delta between "can" and "should". Trying to defend the idea that there is no delta is a monstrous leap that borders on sociopathic thinking. Some of that spilled into this thread at times. Juggling however is far more gray and as this thread proves, can be argued rationally that it isn't even gray.

hiclass
07-07-2010, 06:26 PM
Really ? :confused:

I was under the impression that interest is time based, so the longer you juggle the more interest you gain. Am I incorrect ?
I noticed that i.e. at the beginning of the challenge if you only build one tower and wait for the aliens to arrive every few seconds you gain interest.

Yes, you are wrong!

Interest is time based, but time for interest collection is not juggling based.
i.e. the total time you can collect interest is fix. It starts from the beginning of the game till 1 or 2 minutes after the last aien entered the map.

It is just like you have deposit in bank which give you 5% annual interest.
You then start non-stop-running between your house and your grandma house 24/7/365 (juggling all the time), the Earth still will spin as its usual rate and at the end of the year you still get 5% interest, no more, no less. I mean the Earth won't slow down to become 400 days a year (and thus you gain more interest) just because you are juggling... he he he!

fortunz
07-07-2010, 06:43 PM
Although I don't think hiclass is wrong as a matter of practice, I would note that when you kill a wave early enough, there will be a fastforward in the next wave's launch period, and as best I can tell, interest doesn't accelerate (nor do tower upgrades or anything else) when the next wave launch accelerates. So there might well be times when a juggling maze (which is less likely to kill some waves early than a non-juggling maze) should result in a "longer day" or more time to collect interest. It's not as cut and dried as "juggling gives you more time", but (again, as far as I can tell trying to "eye" the interest accumulation) it can sometimes (as can some carefully timed non-juggle mazes in some circumstances).

Mondak
07-07-2010, 08:35 PM
Although I don't think hiclass is wrong as a matter of practice, I would note that when you kill a wave early enough, there will be a fastforward in the next wave's launch period, and as best I can tell, interest doesn't accelerate (nor do tower upgrades or anything else) when the next wave launch accelerates. So there might well be times when a juggling maze (which is less likely to kill some waves early than a non-juggling maze) should result in a "longer day" or more time to collect interest. It's not as cut and dried as "juggling gives you more time", but (again, as far as I can tell trying to "eye" the interest accumulation) it can sometimes (as can some carefully timed non-juggle mazes in some circumstances).

God - I find this annoying. I mean what about if I want to upgrade a tower right then. If I want to go faster, I have the fast forward key. Why does the game make this decision for me? Yuk

stoicfaux
07-07-2010, 10:07 PM
Juggling is a valid tactic. If you can think fast enough to manage it, then do it. It's not like it's a risk free tactic.

TBird
07-08-2010, 01:41 AM
Yes, you are wrong!

Interest is time based, but time for interest collection is not juggling based.
i.e. the total time you can collect interest is fix. It starts from the beginning of the game till 1 or 2 minutes after the last aien entered the map.



Like fortunz said, you missed the point that killing a wave off quickly will fast forward the next wave, so the time is actually not fixed.
Added to this, I personally have never gotten to the point that the interest counter stopped during the last wave. And especially at the end of the mission, when a single tick of interest has a big impact on your final score, juggling the last boss aliens for additional 30 seconds obviously is very beneficial, so my point stands.

I will admit though that this knowledge can be applied to non juggling mazes as well (i.e. selling towers at the end so the firepower will not kill aliens to quickly).

hiclass
07-08-2010, 11:10 AM
Like fortunz said, you missed the point that killing a wave off quickly will fast forward the next wave, so the time is actually not fixed.


No, I didn't.
If you kill a wave of alien quick enough, visually you should notice 2 things (thus it is very easy for you to justify the below):

1. The next wave of aliens leap forward (only if it is still far from the entance) to a point quite close to the entrance.

2. You should see a bigger than normal boost of interest collection immediately. Those are interest that otherwise you will collect second by second if the leap as in 1. never take place.

i.e. The fsst forward thing is simply a super fast forward (very much faster than you press [F] key). You don't earn more interest by pressing [F] key, right? The samething happen when wave of alien leaps, it is just a matter which takes no time (like a super [F] key effect) and will still give you the same amount of interest (as when there isn't a FF).



Added to this, I personally have never gotten to the point that the interest counter stopped during the last wave.

No offence.
You simply don't know how to juggle. In my case, I usually (very, very and very often) find interest stop before the last few aliens are killed.


And especially at the end of the mission, when a single tick of interest has a big impact on your final score, juggling the last boss aliens for additional 30 seconds obviously is very beneficial, so my point stands.


If you observe seriously, you should notice that by juggling the last wave of aliens the game may take longer to end. But this has nothing to do with the length of time where interest count is active.

i.e. it won't grant you more "time for interest" at all by delaying the end of the game. Because interest-time-countdown starts when last alien enter your map, not when last alien is killed.

fortunz
07-08-2010, 12:04 PM
2. You should see a bigger than normal boost of interest collection immediately. Those are interest that otherwise you will collect second by second if the leap as in 1. never take place.


I'm not saying you're wrong, I think that is how it should work, but I've never spotted it happening despite watching for it.

i.e. The fsst forward thing is simply a super fast forward (very much faster than you press [F] key). You don't earn more interest by pressing [F] key, right? The samething happen when wave of alien leaps, it is just a matter which takes no time (like a super [F] key effect) and will still give you the same amount of interest (as when there isn't a FF).

If you press FF after upgrading a tower, it will upgrade at an increased rate like anything else on the map. If you upgrade a tower just before a wave FFs itself, it upgrades at a normal pace. So it is not simply a much faster F key fastforward. I leave some room that you're right about the interest because it's not always easy to keep track of the rate, but bad analogy to prove your point.

TBird
07-08-2010, 12:27 PM
No, I didn't.
If you kill a wave of alien quick enough, visually you should notice 2 things (thus it is very easy for you to justify the below):

1. The next wave of aliens leap forward (only if it is still far from the entance) to a point quite close to the entrance.

2. You should see a bigger than normal boost of interest collection immediately. Those are interest that otherwise you will collect second by second if the leap as in 1. never take place.

i.e. The fsst forward thing is simply a super fast forward (very much faster than you press [F] key). You don't earn more interest by pressing [F] key, right? The samething happen when wave of alien leaps, it is just a matter which takes no time (like a super [F] key effect) and will still give you the same amount of interest (as when there isn't a FF).


I have never seen that "leap in interest" but I admit I am not 100% sure, I'll have to recheck.



No offence.
You simply don't know how to juggle. In my case, I usually (very, very and very often) find interest stop before the last few aliens are killed.


If you had read my posts, you would know that I am opposed to juggling and therefore don't use it.
:p
But you just prove my point: Without juggling it is likely to kill the last alien before the interest accumulation period ends.


i.e. it won't grant you more "time for interest" at all by delaying the end of the game. Because interest-time-countdown starts when last alien enter your map, not when last alien is killed.

The interesting question seems to be when the countdown ends, not when it actually starts:
When you kill the last alien before the interest accumulation stops, will you lose out on interest ? Right now, it seems to me that your experience does not contradict this, because you say that you try to reach a point in the final wave when interest acuumulation has stopped.

But ok, I admit that the impact on interest is not as big as I thought if there is a timer that stops interest at all(would be pretty crazy otherwise, I guess)

bigtabs
07-08-2010, 02:34 PM
I'd like it if the devs patched out that automatic super fast forward. It's always bothered me; Althoguh I can see it being good for newer players who don't spam the F key like I do and might be a little bored in between waves if they have lots of firepower taking things out early.

hiclass
07-09-2010, 04:05 AM
I'm not saying you're wrong, I think that is how it should work, but I've never spotted it happening despite watching for it.

That is really ODD???
How come I see it very often?

Remember: you need to have all (or most of) the 24 cores in house and have at least 500 units resource , otherwise you won't see any interest irregardless of the fast forward things...

hiclass
07-09-2010, 04:18 AM
:p
But you just prove my point: Without juggling it is likely to kill the last alien before the interest accumulation period ends.

I juggle and you don't.
I often see few last aliens half-dead when interest stop and you have never.
So where, when and how did I prove the above???



When you kill the last alien before the interest accumulation stops, will you lose out on interest ?

No, you don't.
The interest will be granted all at once into your final score.


But ok, I admit that the impact on interest is not as big as I thought if there is a timer that stops interest at all(would be pretty crazy otherwise, I guess)

You don't have to guess. I can assure you on 2 things:
1. There is a timer.
2. The impact of juggling on the interest gain is very huge... provided you do it right.

fortunz
07-09-2010, 11:09 AM
That is really ODD???
How come I see it very often?

Remember: you need to have all (or most of) the 24 cores in house and have at least 500 units resource , otherwise you won't see any interest irregardless of the fast forward things...

I'm not exactly a beginner at this, but thanks for the core tutorial. :rolleyes: I'll try and set up a trial to watch for a post wave rush interest boost again later. No remark on how the wave rush really isn't a super fastforward because of the way it treats tower upgrades and sales?

hiclass
07-09-2010, 12:17 PM
I'm not exactly a beginner at this, but thanks for the core tutorial. :rolleyes: I'll try and set up a trial to watch for a post wave rush interest boost again later. No remark on how the wave rush really isn't a super fastforward because of the way it treats tower upgrades and sales?

Base on what I have observed, it is a super fast forward, indeed.
When a wave of aliens jumps forwards, the jump is immediate and takes no time, so you won't be able to sell or upgrade a tower in that blink of time. Now left the case of selling or upgrading just priot to the leap... come to think about it, after the leap, the wave of aliens still need to take some time before it actually enter the map and that short period is long enough for any tower to be removed or upgraded completely (if it was halfway in the process when the leap took place) ... so I suppose that is why the animation of those process continues as normal instead of being made faster.

fortunz
07-09-2010, 01:03 PM
the wave of aliens still need to take some time before it actually enter the map and that short period is long enough for any tower to be removed or upgraded completely (if it was halfway in the process when the leap took place) ... so I suppose that is why the animation of those process continues as normal instead of being made faster.

You still get ripped off the time you could have used to do a second upgrade/build in the same spot. Say I upgrade a green to yellow just before the wave jumps, and I wait for it to upgrade at normal speed even though the aliens accelerate, but I don't need a yellow tower, I want a red one. I lose a lot of upgrade time I otherwise would have gotten. The impact of that delay can actually be a game changer.

CelebrityCircus
07-09-2010, 01:58 PM
I gotta admit I'm a little late to the party on this thread but......I think juggling is just fine. I've been playing the game since it's release and I haven't done it yet. But, I do plan on playing through the game w/ juggling as my main strategy.

I have however, engaged in "core juggling" if you can call it that. Example... last night I was playing Lockdown Super Grinder. Whenever the aliens managed to get my cores 1/2 or 3/4 of the way out of my maze I would simply remove towers allowing them to take a short route back home (sometimes they would reverse direction to get to the opening I made). Then rebuild the towers. Would this be considered unsavory by people that dont approve of juggling? Should I be required to let the cores take the long way home?

I guess my solution to the whole juggling/non-juggling debate would be to have separate leaderboards. That way you can compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

hiclass
07-09-2010, 11:49 PM
You still get ripped off the time you could have used to do a second upgrade/build in the same spot. Say I upgrade a green to yellow just before the wave jumps, and I wait for it to upgrade at normal speed even though the aliens accelerate, but I don't need a yellow tower, I want a red one. I lose a lot of upgrade time I otherwise would have gotten. The impact of that delay can actually be a game changer.

I agree!
It seems the dev never thinks about the loss of that period of time where player can do something they want.

hiclass
07-10-2010, 12:14 AM
I guess my solution to the whole juggling/non-juggling debate would be to have separate leaderboards. That way you can compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

That couldn't be the case.

Juggling is never a breach of DG's game rule. It is however a little bit more difficult to master and thus quite a number of players do not like doing it and some of them are now suggesting it to be banned or restricted for their own interest (because otherwise those who juggle will definitely have advantage since they have juggling as their extra tactic).

i.e. Juggling is as normal as you upgrade your towers to yellow than red. If I don't like to upgrade twice from green to yellow then from yellow to red because I find it very troublesome (and because I don't like it, I end up always upgrade only once to yellow) but others are getting hgher score because they make use of more powerful red towers, that makes me uncomfotable and I come to this forum to request or suggest a removal of the possibility to upgrade 2nd time to red tower, how do you feel?

Echo
07-10-2010, 02:36 AM
Although I don't think hiclass is wrong as a matter of practice, I would note that when you kill a wave early enough, there will be a fastforward in the next wave's launch period, and as best I can tell, interest doesn't accelerate (nor do tower upgrades or anything else) when the next wave launch accelerates.

I believe if we advance a wave you get an instant interest payment in the amount of how long it would have taken to come naturally :)

In addition, you get the remainder of the time at the end of the game in interest, even if you end it earlier.

TBird
07-10-2010, 04:45 AM
That couldn't be the case.

Juggling is never a breach of DG's game rule. It is however a little bit more difficult to master and thus quite a number of players do not like doing it and some of them are now suggesting it to be banned or restricted for their own interest (because otherwise those who juggle will definitely have advantage since they have juggling as their extra tactic).


It has nothing to do with being a "bit more difficult".

It's simply a different way of playing that will lead to vastly superior results on some maps (if executed perfectly, of course).
Some people feel it's taking advantage of the AI, some think it's perfectly fine.
A number of players obviously enjoy the extra "action" and like developing a layout well-suited for juggling.

I personally would appreciate either seperate leaderboards (though I am pretty much sure this won't happen) or at least some balancing changes (i.e. decrease tower sell values everytime a tower is sold). I think it would be perfect if juggling and non-juggling layouts would be equal in effectiveness so everybody could choose his favorite playstyle (again, this is probably is not 100% possible due to different map layouts).

But hey, if juggling adds extra value for some people and it's ok with the devs, leave it in.
I am still not a fan of it, but even I have to admit that fortunz has proven that you only get a good score by being a top player, juggling or no juggling.


I believe if we advance a wave you get an instant interest payment in the amount of how long it would have taken to come naturally

In addition, you get the remainder of the time at the end of the game in interest, even if you end it earlier.


Thanks for the heads-up :cool:

hiclass
07-10-2010, 10:17 AM
I think it would be perfect if juggling and non-juggling layouts would be equal in effectiveness so everybody could choose his favorite playstyle (again, this is probably is not 100% possible due to different map layouts).


Juggling is not effortless.

By putting in restriction or penalty to (thus reduce the reward of) the act of juggling, you are bias to those who don't juggle...
If one put in effort to juggle wave of aliens, he/she deserves more rewards compare to one who doesn't.

So your idea is neither perfect nor equal in effectiveness... it is simply an unfair call.

TBird
07-10-2010, 12:10 PM
Juggling is not effortless.

By putting in restriction or penalty to (thus reduce the reward of) the act of juggling, you are bias to those who don't juggle...
If one put in effort to juggle wave of aliens, he/she deserves more rewards compare to one who doesn't.

So your idea is neither perfect nor equal in effectiveness... it is simply an unfair call.

That's simply your personal opinion.

First of all I could argue playing with Tesla towers only needs more effort, so I deserve more reward than someone playing with gun towers.

Secondly I also reject your claim that juggling is actually "harder" per se. It depends very much on your preference, (an rts veteran may find nothing hard about juggling at all) the map and your juggling layout.

But I will stop discussing here, I realize that you really like juggling and enjoy the challenge it poses for you and therefore think it is the "correct" way to play the game.

Ultimately it's up to the devs what happens with balancing in DG2 and as far as I can tell juggling is a very minor problem for the majority of players.

Destructo-Bot
07-10-2010, 03:14 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing more fixed path maps. On the larger open maps you really tend to make the same kind of ideal setup over and over... a horseshoe or S-curve shape with a temporal in the middle if possible, which you juggle the aliens back and forth through with green guns around for pathing purposes.

The fixed path maps force you to change your layout for every map and it's not always instantly clear what will work best.

fortunz
07-10-2010, 04:26 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing more fixed path maps.

I like variety too. Although I think the mix has been pretty good. One out of 4 Borderlands were fixed. 1 out of 8 Resurgence were pure fixed, and another 2 were almost fixed (Service Interruption and Risk Exposure).

hiclass
07-10-2010, 08:12 PM
That's simply your personal opinion.

No, it isn't
It is supported by outcomes which we all can see in the real world. If A and B are as smart, whoever more hardworking always harvest more.


First of all I could argue playing with Tesla towers only needs more effort, so I deserve more reward than someone playing with gun towers.

We are talking about whether we DO juggling or DO NOT.
Only one subject, that is 'juggling' and you choose to DO or not to DO it. (you either put in effort or you don't put in effort at all)

Your analog has two subjects, it is about choosing to DO A or B (either way effort are involved), that analog is therefore an absolute crap and unrelated to the matter being discussed.


Secondly I also reject your claim that juggling is actually "harder" per se. It depends very much on your preference, (an rts veteran may find nothing hard about juggling at all) the map and your juggling layout.

Umm... for this I will have to agree with you. Yes, it depends.
I understand different people have different capability in doing certain thing.


Ultimately it's up to the devs what happens with balancing in DG2 and as far as I can tell juggling is a very minor problem for the majority of players.
Not really, it isn't a minor problem!
All those on top 10 leaderboard rank are results involving juggle (unless a level's map does not allow juggling)...
If the Dev disable juggling like what you have suggested, those top 10 kings will feel insulted for they are forced to play like a donkey

Mondak
07-10-2010, 08:50 PM
I have to say that I hate the idea of juggling, and yet, I love this thread.

How cool is the way that people are weighing in on this issue. Very neat that a game can elicit these kind of responses? Good for you guys.

pobst
07-11-2010, 06:20 PM
One interesting thought from reading this was to consider different leaderboards depending on whether or not you sold a tower. I'm not sure that solves the problem, but perhaps it puts scores in two different categories. Perhaps there is a better "rule" than "no towers sold".

Thoughts?

Jeff

Destructo-Bot
07-11-2010, 10:27 PM
Nearly everyone familiar with the game's mechanics sells superfluous towers near the end, so I'm not sure how well that would actually work. Perhaps detecting repeated sells and rebuilds in the same cell?

hiclass
07-12-2010, 02:18 AM
One interesting thought from reading this was to consider different leaderboards depending on whether or not you sold a tower. I'm not sure that solves the problem, but perhaps it puts scores in two different categories. Perhaps there is a better "rule" than "no towers sold".

Thoughts?

Jeff

That couldn't be a solution in regards to the issue being discussed. Because I could sell a tower and rebuild another at the same/different spot for many reasons (other than juggling need):

1. I could have accidently placed a wrong type of tower. No tower sold is real bad idea, it means correction equals juggle.
(remember, it is easy to build wrong type of tower while in a rush) It forces non-juggler type of players to restore to the last checkpoint for every mistake of the kind they made, otherwise their score will be put in the juggler's leaderboard.

2. I might need to change tower type at the same spot because I know a diffent type of tower is better in dealling with incoimng aliens. i.e. I have tower A for first few waves of alien, then tower B for next few waves of alien and then back to tower A again for the rest of aliens (all at the same spot), because of tower type against alien type, not because of juggling. (this could easily happen in a green tower only mode)
This means, rebuilding tower at the same spot is not a definite indicator of someone is juggling.

3. I could sell a tower because I simply want to reshape my maze to make it longer in the mid of a game. i.e. I intentionally use a shorter maze for ealier wave of aliens that save me from building several towers and give me more interest. At some point in the mid or late minutes of the game I then reshape certain portion of my maze to make it a better shape and longer maze (knowing that incoming aliens are tougher and need to be killed in a longer maze). In this kind of reshaping process, I could easily need to sell some towers.

Btw:
For those who advocate "only mazing" is strategic, part 3) above is the advance strategy in doing your favorite thing, do you find it OK, or would you want to also suggest a ban on it, or another leaderboard again?

forsakenlight
07-12-2010, 02:19 AM
mm so this juggling crap is building/selling towers repeatedly to "juggle" the aliens thereby making it easier to obtain a higher score? Sounds cheap to me. Would rather the aliens walk right thru my tower. Why not make it where if the alien is on the board it has a set path that cannot be changed. So you can only direct future waves. Would actually make the game a bit more strategic? Or make it where the alien pathing cannot be changed more than once.

hiclass
07-12-2010, 02:45 AM
Why not make it where if the alien is on the board it has a set path that cannot be changed.

This won't work especially in the earlier stage of a game where player is in the process of building up a maze.

According to your suggetion, in the ealier stage, almost all aliens will go striaght from entrance to exit ignoring the maze being built since they have entered the map. he he he!


So you can only direct future waves. Would actually make the game a bit more strategic?

No it won't.
It just makes the game with fewer strategy.


Or make it where the alien pathing cannot be changed more than once.
See above. It won't work and you won't like it.

TBird
07-12-2010, 03:55 AM
One interesting thought from reading this was to consider different leaderboards depending on whether or not you sold a tower. I'm not sure that solves the problem, but perhaps it puts scores in two different categories. Perhaps there is a better "rule" than "no towers sold".

Thoughts?

Jeff

This would work fine for me. :D

To adress the concerns:

"Everybody sells towers for added interest at the end of the game"


Well, if nobody could sell towers at the end, scores would still be comparable. So if everbody sells that missile tower after the last air wave is through or nobody sells it makes no difference in ranking. Preventing selling and rebuilding in the same spot would be fine with me too.

"I could have accidently placed a wrong tower and now I need to use backspace instead of selling it"

I never sell a misplaced tower but always use backspace instead, because selling and rebuilding will cause an immediate 25% tower value loss which is unacceptable when aiming for a high score (especially at the beginning of the map).

I want to change the tower type, because the next wave features different aliens

That may be true in limited tower challenge mode, but other than that I can't really see that you would want to sell a tower and rebuild another one in the same spot very often, because (again) of the loss of interest.
Added to this, one could argue that this poses an additional challenge: You have to stick with your original layout and have to make tough choices taking into account all the aliens' waves and not being able to switch towers on the fly.


I want to be able to reshape my maze

IMHO, reshaping the maze path through selling/rebuilding towers can be listed in the juggling leaderboard category.
So if you use selling and rebuilding towers to maximize your maze's potential you will be listed apart from those that don't rely on this.
I see nothing wrong with that, since usually there are two types of players: People that like that fact that you use a static layout and those that like the dynamic possibility of change. The latter will usually try to integrate juggling in their layout anyhow, so I guess the players that reshape their maze without juggling are rather rare.

Farting bob
07-12-2010, 04:04 AM
It won't work and you won't like it.

How do you know? You dont need to juggle on any map to get a gold medal so how would limiting juggling break the game?
I think a good way to overcome the whole issue is just add another mode on all the jugglable maps that is the same as story or story challenge but have a no sell limitation in the later waves. Then it gets its own seperate leaderboard and everyone should be happy.

hiclass
07-12-2010, 05:35 AM
How do you know? You dont need to juggle on any map to get a gold medal so how would limiting juggling break the game?

My "it" is referring to the suggestion that "alien path can not be changed more than once", not refering to the general request of limiting juggling.
Are we talking about the samething?


I think a good way to overcome the whole issue is just add another mode on all the jugglable maps that is the same as story or story challenge but have a no sell limitation in the later waves. Then it gets its own seperate leaderboard and everyone should be happy.
But as I have mentioned in the other post, your "No sell" suggestion is not only against juggling, it also has other side effects which for me is rediculous... since by disabling sell of tower you make many things not possible, not juggling alone.
So, I repeat: YES! I am against the idea of "No sell" irregardless of what you want this limitation for.

hiclass
07-12-2010, 07:01 AM
This would work fine for me. :D

I thought you said you have done discussing this issue in your eralier post.
Anyway, welcome back! ;)


Well, if nobody could sell towers at the end, scores would still be comparable. So if everbody sells that missile tower after the last air wave is through or nobody sells it makes no difference in ranking.

According to your theory, that means "No sell" limitation simply makes no difference. (Very funny!)
Then, why should the Dev bother to make that change since it won't make any difference?



I never sell a misplaced tower but always use backspace instead, because selling and rebuilding will cause an immediate 25% tower value loss which is unacceptable when aiming for a high score (especially at the beginning of the map).

But misplacing tower won't happen regularly. I don't find 25% is always big enough to have any big effect particular if it is a green gun (only 25 unit of resource)
I can see now, you are kind of hardworking guy which always go back a checkpoint even if you make a mistake and need to sell a green gun. What is then so difficult for you to be as hardworking in the case of juggling?


Added to this, one could argue that this poses an additional challenge: You have to stick with your original layout and have to make tough choices taking into account all the aliens' waves and not being able to switch towers on the fly.

Ya, that is the most stupid argument I have yet to see someone put it forwards (I hope you won't be the one)
If the above is true, then just ask the developer to add a button call [Calculate], once you have everything laid out, knowing you can then change nothing, just press that button and let the system calculate your score. You don't even need the process of having wave after wave of aliens visiting your maze.
Is that fine for you?


IMHO, reshaping the maze path through selling/rebuilding towers can be listed in the juggling leaderboard category.

IMHO, instead of wasting that kind of effort, the Dev should put their effort in implementing many great suggestions players have made in the other thread ("Most Desired features")... sigh!

TBird
07-12-2010, 07:44 AM
I thought you said you have done discussing this issue in your eralier post.
Anyway, welcome back! ;)


Yes, no point in theoretical discussion, it would go on and on, but now a dev has made the concrete suggestion of divided leaderboards and asked for our opinion so I will answer to that.


According to your theory, that means "No sell" limitation simply makes no difference. (Very funny!)
Then, why should the Dev bother to make that change since it won't make any difference?


I don't understand. :confused:
Farting Bob pointed out that everybody sells towers in the end to increase interest.
I said division by splitting results into "towers sold"/"no towers sold" doesn't change the relative ranking in each category.



But misplacing tower won't happen regularly. I don't find 25% is always big enough to have any big effect particular if it is a green gun (only 25 unit of resource)
I can see now, you are kind of hardworking guy which always go back a checkpoint even if you make a mistake and need to sell a green gun. What is then so difficult for you to be as hardworking in the case of juggling?


It has nothing to do with hardworking/non hardworking. It's simply a different playstyle and I (and many other people) like non-juggling playstyle&maps a lot more, so it's just a personal preference.


Ya, that is the most stupid argument I have yet to see someone put it forwards (I hope you won't be the one)
If the above is true, then just ask the developer to add a button call [Calculate], once you have everything laid out, knowing you can then change nothing, just press that button and let the system calculate your score. You don't even need the process of having wave after wave of aliens visiting your maze.
Is that fine for you?


What I said is that there are reasons in gameplay design that favor the removal of the possibility to sell towers.
And one reason is that you have to think beforehand about the layout and no selling makes your choices more meaningful, because you can't reverse your choices, once you built a tower
Nobody talked about having the computer calculate everything :confused:


IMHO, instead of wasting that kind of effort, the Dev should put their effort in implementing many great suggestions players have made in the other thread... sigh!

I don't think that this solution takes up a lot of work, because you simply divide the results through the sell tower category into "towers sold=0" and "tower's sold>0" and open up an additional leaderboard.

As you said there are probably limitations in how much time it can take to fix this problem and I am sure things like changing the pathfinding algorithm are not very easy to do.
I personally like the idea to solve this conflict through the leaderboards, because everybody can play the way he likes, while changing gameplay elements would probably anger either group.
But maybe someone comes up with an even better idea.

hiclass
07-12-2010, 11:51 AM
I don't think that this solution takes up a lot of work, because you simply divide the results through the sell tower category into "towers sold=0" and "tower's sold>0" and open up an additional leaderboard.

That is easier said than done.

1. For map that has fix path which by its nature does not allow juggling, are you going to also split leaderboard? If your answer is YES, then it is ridiculous because that limitation simply serve no purpose. If your answer is No then how are you going to design a leaderboard that sometime split and sometime not split by "No sell"?

2. Just imagine you are the map designer for future DG which has the split leaderboard as you have suggested. Now, which group is your main concern, I mean for which group of player are you going to emphasize when start designing a map? I can asure you that you won't be able to come up with a map satisfying both parties.

3. Similar to 2. above, if future DG is going to introduce new type of towers, expensive but very powerful tower favours the "No sell" group because they will never sell a tower. Relatively cheap tower but with specific ability will favors the group that juggles. So what type of new tower are you going to put into new DG?

To me having split leaderboard means 2 ways to win the same game. (2 kind of victory).

Dear Dev, I might sound arrogant for the below, but you have to believe my sincerity, I mean for good:

Allowing player to have multiple type of victory is the the last thing a game designer should try to resort to when there is conflict of player interest.

You will end up with a single game that most of the time can not be optimized/balanced for any new feature that you intend to introduce.

fortunz
07-12-2010, 01:04 PM
One interesting thought from reading this was to consider different leaderboards depending on whether or not you sold a tower. I'm not sure that solves the problem, but perhaps it puts scores in two different categories. Perhaps there is a better "rule" than "no towers sold".

Thoughts?

Jeff

It does place a few further limitations on non-jugglers, already discussed by others, but it sounds like a good solution to me. I can imagine competing on both leaderboards.

If your answer is No then how are you going to design a leaderboard that sometime split and sometime not split by "No sell"?

If map = juggleable then check towers_sold. If not, then single leaderboard. Then tag the maps juggleable or not_juggleable.

I can asure you that you won't be able to come up with a map satisfying both parties.

They already have.

forsakenlight
07-12-2010, 03:42 PM
hiclass saying my suggestion would not work, why? The point you offered was rather shallow and wrong. No aliens start on the board. In fact you usually get more than adequate time to use all of your initial resources or in a situation of 20k resources a decent start to a maze.
And most roadblocks you put up are not going to affect what is on the board anyway (unless you like to "juggle"), it is there to deter future waves. I think making it where aliens paths can only be changed once (AFTER they enter the board) would offer more strategy in planning. But I am not a cool kid who likes to "juggle" to get higher scores so I guess I am wrong.

fortunz
07-12-2010, 04:14 PM
I guess all the cool kids like to "juggle" to get higher scores and any kind of change to this even cosmetic is flat out wrong. And any suggestions as such is also wrong. ...

But I am not a cool kid who likes to "juggle" to get higher scores so I guess I am wrong.

hiclass disagreed with you. That's allowed and encouraged here and it works both ways. The "cool kids" stuff is a step towards making this personal, and that is discouraged here. As I've said before to people on both sides of the argument, let's just talk about juggling, not people.

forsakenlight
07-12-2010, 04:53 PM
hiclass disagreed with you. That's allowed and encouraged here and it works both ways. The "cool kids" stuff is a step towards making this personal, and that is discouraged here. As I've said before to people on both sides of the argument, let's just talk about juggling, not people.

Huh?:confused:
I made no attack, I did not even reference him directly. Some people read into things too much, but if it bothers you that much I will remove the first part. And he shoots down any and every suggestion. I can see his point with splitting the boards but he refuses to see any other points. But honestly even with board splitting I am ok with that, I just wont sell any towers even for interest gain.

I still think my suggestion is about the best solution. Just make it where once the alien is on the map its path can only be changed once. If you want to build 5 towers with aliens in play then figure out which one will change the path and build it last.

fortunz
07-12-2010, 05:16 PM
I will remove the first part.

Thank you. :)

salmusco
07-12-2010, 05:48 PM
Hello forgive me for joining the party on this so late. Please forgive my lack of modesty but the numbers back this up. I am the best juggler there is. I have not read this whole giant debate. This is what i think, alot of you guys who are anti juggle feel that way because you just dont no how to do it right! Or you just dont want to put in the effort to learn. We who juggle are not simlpe minded people who just can't play this game strait up. IE. the last wed challenge Cross signal 15 ,the top 3 on this non juggle board are all jugglers! To Fortunz as great as this debate is. I fear it may in the long run lead to anti juggle rules or split leader boards. Perhaps it may have been better left unsaid.

fortunz
07-12-2010, 06:22 PM
To Fortunz as great as this debate is. I fear it may in the long run lead to anti juggle rules or split leader boards. Perhaps it may have been better left unsaid.

Would split leaderboards really be so bad? I tend to agree with your point that jugglers are advanced players whose sensibility to embrace the game fully leads to advanced play even where juggling is impossible, and I think the end result is that they would fare well on both boards.

I'm pleased with the input from developers, and hopefully this thread will prevent true across the board anti-juggle rules. I feared before that juggling complaints went unanswered and might be the only thing on devs' minds as they built DG2 or expansions. Though even I would welcome more juggle-proof maps like Crossed Signals so long as the quality remains as high as it has thus far. IMO, a juggle proof map is harder to make fun, but HP has nailed it so many times that that doesn't worry me.

Anyway, welcome to the boards. Glad you got your posting issue fixed.

This is what i think, alot of you guys who are anti juggle feel that way because you just dont know how to do it right!

If you ever do get to read the full thread, you'll see some of them really prefer to have a more laid back, passive gaming style. Make the maze and watch. It's a minor distinction (don't know how to do it right vs don't want to know how to do it right), but probably not to them. Juggling does require more activity and does lead to a more RTS type of feel than a TBS type of feel. I like Civ and C&C so the distinction doesn't tax me much.

That said, I at least partially agree that some (not all) misunderstandings regarding juggling come from ignorance of not having really utilized it beyond maybe bouncing the last wave a little once or twice. There seems to be a greater desire to call it cheap where there is less experience using it. But please do keep in mind that there are a variety of juggling opponents here who are quite fair-minded and aren't trying to ruin any juggler's fun.

salmusco
07-12-2010, 06:53 PM
Split leader boards are not that bad. However it does imply sort of , that there is something wrong or cheap about juggling. As for the possilibly banning juggling, and if this debate was needed you may know better than I. I noticed you are listed as friends with one or some of the hidden path team. Congrats! for that impressive Cross Signal score! I thank you for input on these forums you have been been great for the game! You been bringing it to the table as they say. I do think from watching your impressive video, and forgive me if its not ture that you are affiliated in some way with the team. Basically you may be a ringer. If you are thats great bring on the competition with the ringers.

fortunz
07-12-2010, 08:24 PM
Nah, I have no relationship to the team, I'm just a player. Echo was kindly friending people in the wednesday challenge thread which is the only connection I have and I gather he'll play in this week's wednesday challenge.

However it does imply sort of , that there is something wrong or cheap about juggling.

I sort of see what you're saying. I think it could be implemented without that implication though -- only that it's a different style of play, not better or worse. It would be sort of like having a whole new set of challenge modes. And from what I've read from the team, I don't imagine HP will promote the notion that juggling is wrong. Last I heard one of them describe it it, it was just another way of playing.

salmusco
07-12-2010, 08:46 PM
I not really opposed to it( split Boards). Seems like alot of troube for the team. It actually could be pretty intersting. Could actually be part of wed challenge now. Something like play the Last Stand Story with less then 40 or 50 towers. I think non jugglers will make comments to jugglers,like what did you get on the REAL board. I think however we could live with it. Not really thrilled by it however.

fortunz
07-12-2010, 09:36 PM
Seems like alot of troube for the team.

Yeah. I doubt they're really thinking heavily about that kind of tweak for DG1 unless they decide to do more major expansions for it before/rather than a sequel. That said, they've made too good a game for there not to be more DG in some package or another, so when I argue for stuff here I'm usually thinking ahead.

One of the perks to buying from smaller companies is they tend to listen to their customers. Try and make a suggestion to Activision/EA and you might as well mail it straight to the paper recycling center or email it to your desktop recycle bin. And even though HP can't do it all, they do listen a lot, and I like that.

forsakenlight
07-12-2010, 10:19 PM
I don't see what all the apprehension is with split boards. I don't see how it could be any implication that "juggling" is bad or anything. And I also do not see how "juggling" is more advanced or better or hard-core.

Some people simply do not like to sell towers and bounce aliens back and forth. Just like some people who play x-com do not like to lose squad members, whereas others will load a guy with explosives and run him into the middle of the enemy. It is just preference. It is not that one is better or easier it is just how someone wants to play.

And I would be kind of interested to see how scores reflect in a "juggling" vs no towers sold setting. Not to say either is better or worse, if nothing else if would give you more "replay" or something as you can strive for top ranks in sale/no sale.

Also I don't really see how this would penalize people who sell excess towers at the end as nobody would be able to do this in a sale/no sale setup anyway. So whereas you might lose a few imaginary points, so does everyone else in the no sale bracket. Thus nobody really loses anything.
And if you want to see how far you can push your points you could just play in the sale bracket.
Just some things to think about.

hiclass
07-13-2010, 12:59 AM
They already have.

I am talking about a map that satisfies both part when ther is split leaderboard. Since there isn't split leaderboard yet, how can there aleady have such map?

You lied.

fortunz
07-13-2010, 01:29 AM
I am talking about a map that satisfies both part when ther is split leaderboard. Since there isn't split leaderboard yet, how can there aleady have such map?

You lied.

Other people have skirted the line on personal attacks, most inadvertently. That one was blatant.

Whether the leaderboard is split or not shouldn't make a lick of difference in level design. People currently like to play on the maps using both juggling and non-juggling techniques. The only real difference if a split were instituted is that their scores would go to different places depending on whether they sold a tower or not. So long as the devs make maps the same way they make them now, I expect they'll continue to satisfy both jugglers and non-jugglers.

You may be obsessed with leaderboards, but my suspicion is that to the devs, they're only a perk for players, not a fundamental building block that figures into level balance.

hiclass
07-13-2010, 01:29 AM
hiclass saying my suggestion would not work, why? The point you offered was rather shallow and wrong. No aliens start on the board. In fact you usually get more than adequate time to use all of your initial resources or in a situation of 20k resources a decent start to a maze.

My dear forsakenlight, for most of the 20K (or whatever K) resource levels, I normally won't want to juggle at all (not worth it). Do you know why? :) :) :)

Take "Story mode" as example and take any advanced mode level as example, tell me why my claim that "your suggetion won't work at ealier stage of any level" is wrong.

Remember this, playing "story mode" is a must otherwise a player won't be able to proceed because higher levels are all locked.

Btw for anyone who haven't follow previous post, he was suggesting to disallow or only allow one time switching of aliens moving path. That means once the aliens have decided a path to go with, you won't be able to change their mind (by building maze) and they break through your portion of maze if built later than their decision as mentioned and I was telling him that won't work because almost all aliens at first few waves will run straight from entrance to exit breaking through naze.

hiclass
07-13-2010, 01:37 AM
Hello forgive me for joining the party on this so late. Please forgive my lack of modesty but the numbers back this up. I am the best juggler there is. I have not read this whole giant debate. This is what i think, alot of you guys who are anti juggle feel that way because you just dont no how to do it right! Or you just dont want to put in the effort to learn. We who juggle are not simlpe minded people who just can't play this game strait up. IE. the last wed challenge Cross signal 15 ,the top 3 on this non juggle board are all jugglers! To Fortunz as great as this debate is. I fear it may in the long run lead to anti juggle rules or split leader boards. Perhaps it may have been better left unsaid.

Man... I really feel warm to have you here. Takista should also come here and say something...

Seriously, I am dying to against those anti-juggling suggestions for I can foresee they are spoiling jugglers's fun in future DG.

Ganjafear
07-13-2010, 02:17 AM
I do not personally juggle except for a few maps where I sell a lvl 1 guntower in my mace and rebuild it to split up the rumblers, so they do not show up in a big cluster and just walk right through my mace.

On my favorite maps I have pretty high scores without juggling so I guess it is very situational. On which maps do you gain a significant advantage by using it? I might give it a whirl if some experienced jugglers can either post me some great vids or tell me places where it would be good. I mean there is micromanagement and then there is micromicromanagement. For the same reasons as I did not "dance" with my groups in starcraft I do not juggle much in DG, it is just too much hassle for me and I enjoy the game mostly because I can just play it casually and still be relatively good.

I do not think it should be banned from the game at all. The game is pretty good as it is, a potential DG2 should rather focus on removing cheaters, adding new maps/modes/mobs/towers and maybe a little something-something you can do inbetween waves on the levels where you are just spamming them away. I personally never liked grinder levels at all so I will only ever play them once to get the gold medal(done)and never look back. Same thing with juggling really, the game needs niches and different things for everybody to try and enjoy, does it really matter to you if you are number ten or one on the scoreboards? If you are good you will still score high without juggling and if it is removed the game might feel way too much like the boxes babies get where you can only put the triangle here and the square there and the circle in the third hole.

Sorry for bad punctuation, wall of text and language. English is not my first language.

salmusco
07-13-2010, 01:25 PM
Thankyou for the the nice post. Takista I think likes to mostly just play. Maybe he will at some point enlighten us with a comment. If he does we will be lucky. He is a great player. I have not read the whole thread however i think you and Fortunz maybe having a misunderstanding. I think you guys sould play nice. You are both Great gamers!

salmusco
07-13-2010, 01:44 PM
Not taking any sides (Bettween you and HiClass) you are both great gamers. I dont think the team should view the leader boards as a perk. I dont know about every one else, but I would have been finished with this game along time ago without leader boards. The leader boards to me is what keeps us intersted. For examlpe no leader boards no wed. challenge.

fortunz
07-13-2010, 01:57 PM
No need to worry about choosing sides between me and hiclass. I'm not really the sensitive type and I'm not about to lash out at someone just for disagreeing with me.

I dont think the team should view the leader boards as a perk. I dont know about every one else, but I would have been finished with this game along time ago without leader boards. The leader boards to me is what keeps us intersted. For examlpe no leader boards no wed. challenge.

Well, perhaps that's the wrong word, but honestly perks are good things, sometimes even vital. Insurance and other job benefits can be described as perks. Pretty important, but not the main event.

Here I was speaking in relation to map balancing, and that's all I really meant it was a perk not an element to balancing the game. I can't imagine any reason why a dev would need to consider the difference between a leaderboard that prohibited sales and one that didn't with regard to alien strength and/or diversity, weapon strength and/or diversity, map size, wave strength or the number of waves per map. There's already plenty of love for both sides, why would that change with split boards?

salmusco
07-13-2010, 01:57 PM
Instead of having sell and no sell boards. Why not just post a strick towers BUILT limit on non juggle boards. Each board would come with a different limit. This would make juggling almost non existant. But would also have a little wiggle room for people to buy and sell. Also many boards most people think you cant juggle i can. So I surpose i may have to give you a video some day to prove it.

RalphMalph
07-13-2010, 03:26 PM
Juggling seems to me, to be against the spirit of the game.

Why?

The idea is that the aliens move FORWARD taking the path of least resistance, and the "blocked path" mechanic supports this. By juggling, you are short-circuiting the intended game mechanics (no blocked paths, always move FORWARD) and that makes juggling an exploit. You remove any "intelligence" from the computer opponent by doing this, since those are the two things that define the AI, really.

Dress it up and rationalize it however you like, but that is how I see the subject.

salmusco
07-13-2010, 03:41 PM
It is not that they are not intelligent.It just that they have rules to follow. If they suddenly have the ability to break threw towers. Then there should be no pathing. Why not have them walk threw towers in a strait line? Thats the most intelligent thing for them to do.

salmusco
07-13-2010, 03:51 PM
Its not that they are not intelligent its just that they have rules to follow. If you believe this, there should be no path shapeing. If they can just break threw towers at will then they should go in a strait line to the cores. That is the most intelligent thing for them to do.

forsakenlight
07-13-2010, 04:49 PM
My dear forsakenlight, for most of the 20K (or whatever K) resource levels, I normally won't want to juggle at all (not worth it). Do you know why? :) :) :)

Take "Story mode" as example and take any advanced mode level as example, tell me why my claim that "your suggetion won't work at ealier stage of any level" is wrong.

Remember this, playing "story mode" is a must otherwise a player won't be able to proceed because higher levels are all locked.

Btw for anyone who haven't follow previous post, he was suggesting to disallow or only allow one time switching of aliens moving path. That means once the aliens have decided a path to go with, you won't be able to change their mind (by building maze) and they break through your portion of maze if built later than their decision as mentioned and I was telling him that won't work because almost all aliens at first few waves will run straight from entrance to exit breaking through naze.

You still offer no valid point that making it where an alien in plays path can only be changed once will not work. All you do is this passive aggressive stuff and say everyone is wrong.
I never juggle and I get gold medals on every map/challenge combination.
And you keep with this aliens will just go from start to exit stuff. No alien starts on the board, I am not sure what the shortest time is but most of the time you get 30 seconds or more to build what you want. And you get an unlimited amount of time to look at the map and make decisions. I don't think you even read the posts or quite possibly can't understand them, yet feel the need to say everyone is wrong.

I can only confer that you for whatever reason think that all waves will follow the first waves pathing. This is not the case.
Maybe you should read more and argue less.

fortunz
07-13-2010, 04:54 PM
Dress it up and rationalize it however you like, but that is how I see the subject.

Your opinion is welcome, but don't think that you're not rationalizing to buttress your perspective as well. That's fine, rationales were what I was after, as gaming is going to be somewhat subjective. Just looking for persuasive ones.

It is not that they are not intelligent.It just that they have rules to follow.

Yup, I find that rationale very persuasive. We're smart (sort of) and we've got tons of rules that make us look stupid. Better yet, cats are graceful, but I've seen laws of gravity and friction make them look like total spazzes on numerous occasions. I pretended not to notice, cause they would have killed me to keep their secret, but I noticed.

hiclass
07-13-2010, 05:52 PM
You still offer no valid point that making it where an alien in plays path can only be changed once will not work. All you do is this passive aggressive stuff and say everyone is wrong.
I never juggle and I get gold medals on every map/challenge combination.
And you keep with this aliens will just go from start to exit stuff. No alien starts on the board, I am not sure what the shortest time is but most of the time you get 30 seconds or more to build what you want. And you get an unlimited amount of time to look at the map and make decisions. I don't think you even read the posts or quite possibly can't understand them, yet feel the need to say everyone is wrong.

I can only confer that you for whatever reason think that all waves will follow the first waves pathing. This is not the case.
Maybe you should read more and argue less.

Ya.
There isn't any alien on board at the start.
You got 30 seconds before they enter the map. (It doesn't matter, I can give you 30 minutes...)
You got 20K for any level you want to play.
Before the first alien wave can enter the map, you have your maze fully constructed, take a short break, make a cup of coffee and watch the aliens squeezing into your maze.
All aliens die, you got gold.
Satisfy?

But that is another tower defense game, NOT DG. In DG it never happen like that. In most of the DG levels, you start with very limited resource sometime only 600 units.

and

before you start argueing again, yes, in DG you collect resource while killing aliens and that provide you with more resource to continue building maze. But before they enter the map, how many time the next wave of aliens will wait for you to kill all aliens of current wave? Anyone who play DG for a while knows, your suggestion won't work. For every few towers you continue to add to your maze there is always one or more wave of aliens already in your map laughing at you, for they will dance through the tower you have just placed. hehehe...

forsakenlight
07-13-2010, 06:24 PM
hiclass you argue just for the sake of argument and offer nothing valid. You should go back to trolling an image board that apparently is filtered here.
Think what you want, you are obviously always right.

For the sake of being nice I will clarify yet again.
I said that once an alien is ON THE BOARD, it could be changed to where THAT ALIEN can only have its path changed once. THAT ALIEN does not correlate into EVERY ALIEN CAN ONLY FOLLOW ONE PATH. I do not know why you seem to want to butcher my wording in such a horrible way that I need to write 5 paragraphs to straighten it out for you...
So while you are finishing off wave 4, wave 5 enters the board. You changed the pathing of wave 4 but wave 5 was not on the board yet. SO you can now change the path of wave 5 and while what is remaining of wave 4 might "merrily dance thru your tower". Who cares, you are onto wave 5 now and directing their flow. And when wave 6 appears you can change its path too. Can you understand this now? Because I am not going to explain it in any more detail.

Destructo-Bot
07-13-2010, 07:33 PM
Turnabout really showcases juggling taken to absurdity. You can finish the round with an excess of 50,000+ resources and only a few level 3 towers (at least two out of those handful a command and temporal!), the vast majority of the maze being green guns.

By the last third of the round you have enough resources from juggling to build dozens upon dozens of level 3 towers if you felt like it, completely nuking the last waves in something way beyond overkill. This is where I find juggling to be a cheap tactic... it's just too effective on maps like this.

On my Wednesday challenge entry I juggled for the entire round, sending aliens back and forth half a dozen times. I just think the aliens shouldn't be THAT dumb... they are supposed to be a threat!

The fix shouldn't be split leaderboards or disabling juggling, just have a fairly even balance of fixed path and open terrain maps for everyone. Hopefully with the waves setup so that juggling is dangerous; rumblers mixed with crashers for instance.

salmusco
07-13-2010, 08:21 PM
No offense. But if its so easy and absurd where is your absurd score post? Where is the post that is even within 10k of mine? It a good opportunity for you non jugglers to juggle just for once and show me how simple it is to get or beat my score? lets see how close you can get. I mean show me how easy it is. Maybe then I will change my mind. Not trying to brag just making a point.

Destructo-Bot
07-13-2010, 08:30 PM
Wow, lots of angry little boys in this thread! If you meant no offense, you wouldn't have had to say it. Opinions are just that, so try not to get bent out of shape when you hear something you don't like. Check the leaderboards if you like, I'm trading top spots with ALL of the top players here across most of the game modes and have a number of top 5 and top 10 spots myself.

Ending a round with 50,000 extra resources and more is a clear indication that the map is far unbalanced. You should be challenged to make do with limited resources, not swimming in so much cash that you can blanket the map in Red towers.

Destructo-Bot
07-13-2010, 09:02 PM
An addendum to my post just before: I beat Turnabout 20K using only two red guns, the rest a green gun maze save for two yellow temps and non-stop juggling. That gives you rank 10 on 20k resource mode.

For Turnabout story mode (Wed challenge) my first plan would be to sell the kill towers and juggle the last two boss waves (crashers and rumblers) so that they never touch the cores until interest countdown ceases, then reestablish the regular maze and take them out. That should give a truly massive interest bonus.

The thing is, this makes the game about gathering resources, rather than defeating aliens. I think the thing is that most of the people against this type of uber-juggling see it as something other than the true objective.

If we are considering possibilities: Perhaps some kind of bonus for taking down bosses or aliens quickly, rather than drawing it out for as long as possible, or a some kind of timer that reduces an aliens kill value the longer it has been in play. Us "anti-jugglers" just see the interest mechanic as too rewarding.

salmusco
07-13-2010, 10:25 PM
Not angry. I made mistake I forgot to put in a S, the post should have been jugglers. The challenge was not to you only it was to everyone that does not juggle. I am not saying your are not a good player. I just think I should get some credit for my score. If you or anyone does indeed think the score I made was easy to get. Take alittle time to juggle just once and show me. I mean on this board not others you may be a great player i dont really know. Get within 10k get with 5k beat me show me why it absurd show me its easy. You really still got to have some skill to juggle perfectly,to upgrade at just the right time. Just because you can beat the board with only two upgraded gun towers does not mean is the best strat. there is. I know the post may have sounded angry with the word juggler in it. It should have read Jugglers. The 50k you speak of is still falls far short of my score. None of us should be angry about this stuff it is only a discussion,and only a game. Also I will not ruin the wed challenge if no one can compete with me on these board i will play them without juggling.

Destructo-Bot
07-13-2010, 10:39 PM
Not to brag eh?

salmusco
07-13-2010, 10:50 PM
No need to waste time leaving live the last alien. There is not a reward.Killem ouick if you want. The team made the game so if you kill them ouick you get added on the points and interst as if you juggled them for about 1 min.(when the interst runs out. Also the reason I said no offense is because I felt you may have wrongly felt that way. Rember this thread is very conserversial and passinate it not only easy to be 100% chill and polite all the time. I am however tring to.

salmusco
07-13-2010, 10:59 PM
Your Commet "Not to BRAG" Well I dont know maybe I may have come off alittle bragish if thats a word. No ones perfect. A wise man said "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone"

salmusco
07-13-2010, 11:02 PM
No need to waste time leaving live the last alien. There is not a reward.Killem ouick if you want. The team made the game so if you kill them ouick you get added on the points and interst as if you juggled them for about 1 min.(when the interstout. als the reason I said no offense is because I felt you may have wrongly felt that way. Rember this thread is very conserverial and passinate it not only easy to be 100% chill and polite all the time. I am however tring to

Destructo-Bot
07-13-2010, 11:08 PM
You kill the first couple and bounce the last one around until the interest stops.

I find that supremely uninteresting.

salmusco
07-13-2010, 11:37 PM
We seem to be having trouble getting on the same wave length. If you Kill them quick. You still get the same interst and points as if you juggled the last alien around until the interst stopped. The game was designed that way. Ask Jeff if you may. No I dont do that!

hiclass
07-14-2010, 07:05 AM
Ending a round with 50,000 extra resources and more is a clear indication that the map is far unbalanced. You should be challenged to make do with limited resources, not swimming in so much cash that you can blanket the map in Red towers.

But I think it the opposite way.
Seriously, no offence, when I juggle and get good score (top ranking) I ... feel others are dumb, why are they playing so poorly... I feel super-great and ...

You see, your problem is, you keep thinking the game, by its origin should not be juggled. And if you or someone else juggle and get a great boost of score, you claim juggling is too much.

Why can't you just think it the other way round?
Why can't you just assume juggling is a natural part of the game, those who don't bother to juggle deserve a much lower score and those who juggle is getting scores which are ordinary?

hiclass
07-14-2010, 07:25 AM
For the sake of being nice I will clarify yet again.
I said that once an alien is ON THE BOARD, it could be changed to where THAT ALIEN can only have its path changed once. THAT ALIEN does not correlate into EVERY ALIEN CAN ONLY FOLLOW ONE PATH. I do not know why you seem to want to butcher my wording in such a horrible way that I need to write 5 paragraphs to straighten it out for you...


For the sake of being nice... hehehe...
Say you place a tower T1 immediately after alien A1 (1 alien as you wish) entered the map and that tower blocks/changes its path once.

Similarly to above, you place tower T2 immediately after alien A2 enter the map, that T2 blocks/changes A1 for second time and blocks/changes A2 for the first time, now even though A2 will be blocked/changed by T2 but A1 is going to break through it (because this is the second time you attempt to change A1's path) and the story follows...

So, at the time you place Tn (the number n tower) you have n-1 aliens readily to break through n-1 of different towers in your maze... all laughing like hell... eh eh eh


So while you are finishing off wave 4, wave 5 enters the board. You changed the pathing of wave 4 but wave 5 was not on the board yet. SO you can now change the path of wave 5 and while what is remaining of wave 4 might "merrily dance thru your tower". Who cares, you are onto wave 5 now and directing their flow. And when wave 6 appears you can change its path too. Can you understand this now? Because I am not going to explain it in any more detail.

No offence, very tough language... to be frank I doubt any can understand the above.
I just want to tell you one thing, while wave N is moving through and being shot by your towers, it is quite normal case that next wave N+1 already enters your map.
I don't mean to be long winded, but anyone actually play DG knows, the next wave and the next next wave of aliens won't wait to enter the map. The longer the map you have built, the more possibility for multiple wave of aliens in your maze at the same time. They won't take a cup of coffee and wait for you (to kill all existing aliens) at the entrance. hehehe!

fortunz
07-14-2010, 08:59 AM
Ending a round with 50,000 extra resources and more is a clear indication that the map is far unbalanced. You should be challenged to make do with limited resources, not swimming in so much cash that you can blanket the map in Red towers.

Juggling brings back a sense of challenge to do with limited resources, that's part of what makes it fun. Because of the interest earning mechanism, just having money doesn't mean you get to build a massive red maze, instead, you have to keep your wits about you. And yes, often, you have to deal with crashers and rumblers and racers and walkers.

Salmusco's been fairly civil and I'll ask you to do the same. Please refrain from resorting to "angry little boys" comments. It diminishes the effectiveness of your other arguments, and you argue well, so there's really no need to lean back on name-calling.

Destructo-Bot
07-14-2010, 10:52 AM
Sorry, but when someone says "no offense", they mean just the opposite. Being a braggart doesn't help endear me either. Just because someone is a better juggler that another doesn't render the points invalid. Posting "SO BEAT ME OR YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID" is useless and little more than being less than civil.

I haven't posted trying to nix juggling entirely, just to tone down the ridiculous rewards it can give on certain maps. When a juggling layout can beat a non-juggle layout by over two times in resources, I think the mechanic needs reexamined.

Juggling is fine, the interest mechanic it games is not.

fortunz
07-14-2010, 11:00 AM
Sorry, but when someone says "no offense", they mean just the opposite.

That's fine, and a fine point to make (though it's certainly not always true). But there's a difference between "show me you're good" and "you're an angry little boy". Challenges of skill aren't insults even if they do bring offense. Insults are insults even if they don't bring offense.

No harm done, I'm just trying to avoid shis thread devolving into anything too ugly. Not everyone might find it useful, but I've seen good points made on both sides.

I haven't posted trying to nix juggling entirely, just to tone down the ridiculous rewards it can give on certain maps. When a juggling layout can beat a non-juggle layout by over two times in resources, I think the mechanic needs reexamined.

I love the interest mechanism in this game, even separate and apart from juggling. I think it sets Defense Grid apart from other tower defense games in a big way By the time juggling vs. nonjuggling maps were balanced out or evened out more, you might as well have chucked interest entirely, and I think that hurts everyone in the game.

You complained earlier about resources being too flush, DG's rich interest mechanism is what forces you to pay attention from tower one and not just build ridiculously over-powered mazes so you can get high scores (irrespective of juggling). Neuter that, and suddenly the entire game gets a lot less interesting.

What I might recommend as an alternative for you to ask for so that the game isn't so dramatically altered is a monetary penalty for tower sales. I don't support it personally, because I have no issue with juggling and think if you're going to do the work, you ought to get a higher score for it. But the idea is that with each tower sale you get less and less recovery, and eventually even lose money per sale.

salmusco
07-14-2010, 01:18 PM
The only insults in our conversion have been made by you sir. First you call my wed. challenge score an absurdity,then you called me a little boy,.and now a braggart. Your dogmatic view that anyone who says no offense means the opposite is unture you can not read minds and hearts. I am not a braggart. Any way this thread is very conserverial and sensitive. Now not saying you are calling juggling cheap but some people are, thats basically saying the scores we jugglers have earned are cheap. Remember you called my score and absurdity. I think in light of the insults you have said to me i have been remarkably civil! Some times the tone of our responses may be passinate in light the sensitivity of this thread. But thats the nature of the thread. If you are to sensitive maybe this is not the thread for you. Sir it is not my goal to endear my self to you! Anyway all this NONSENSE and we are not even talking about the issus of juggling. I will just not respond to what you post very often perhaps then we can talk about juggling instead of insults. Fortunz it is unfortinate this thread has taken this hostile turn.

forsakenlight
07-14-2010, 01:44 PM
Hiclass you are always right. There is no point in debating with you because you know everything about everything, even mechanics which don't exist. You know the outcome before it even happens. You must be god.

At this point I hope they do split the leader boards. Juggle all you want. Sit there and juggle till you get 5 million points. Me and the legitimate players will have our own score board.

salmusco
07-14-2010, 01:54 PM
Have you read the last post by forsaken. Thats my point about split boards you see how they try to devalue the juggling board?

hiclass
07-14-2010, 02:16 PM
Hiclass you are always right.

I suppose that is because I only say the right thing.


There is no point in debating with you because you know everything about everything, even mechanics which don't exist. You know the outcome before it even happens. You must be god.

That is called experience, not God.


At this point I hope they do split the leader boards.

I hope they won't.
My experience tell me, I will be right this time, too.

Destructo-Bot
07-14-2010, 02:59 PM
The problem I have is you beating your chest proclaiming yourself the bestest ever. True or not, that kind of attitude is scientifically designed to be irritating. Paraphrasing, "Beat my score or your points are worthless", isn't civil. I'd have a hard time creating a more loaded post.

It sounds like English isn't your first language though, so I'll chalk it up to that for now. If you want me to listen to you, try not to proclaim yourself king of defense grid. I'm beating Fortunz by several thousand points on Turnabout... care to tell me that he clearly can't juggle and so his points are nullified? He's a good juggler, and prefers that technique, so I'm well aware of the mechanics of good juggling thank you very much. It also makes it so that you need to build closer to the entrance for maximum kill value, so that could be interesting as well.

At the end of the day, I'm just happy as long as we have a good blend of fixed path and open terrain maps. But this thread is for debate, so lets not let it devolve back down to "I'm better, thefore I'm right".

Back to the topic: seeing aliens decline in value the longer they are in play would solve the problem pretty neatly. A layout that has almost no kill power and is meant to simply drag things out will suffer. A blend of time to kill and pathing would be needed to maintain good resource recovery. This gives good juggling an advantage without taking it to the ABSURD extremes it can go to on certain maps without making a non-juggle layout so far behind that it's silly.

Destructo-Bot
07-14-2010, 03:14 PM
We seem to be having trouble getting on the same wave length. If you Kill them quick. You still get the same interst and points as if you juggled the last alien around until the interst stopped. The game was designed that way. Ask Jeff if you may. No I dont do that!

Not if you end the game before the interest timer expires. On Turnabout the best strategy is to kill all the last wave bosses save for one, and bounce it around until the timer expires. This will lead to an ABSURD amount of extra interest since it's ticking up 50-100 resources per second at that point leading to an extra 6,000 to 12,000 resources over NOT juggling. When the cost of towers to beat that round doesn't exceed 10,000 resources (and you start with 1000!), that seems a bit high doesn't it?

Echo
07-14-2010, 03:19 PM
Back to the topic: seeing aliens decline in value the longer they are in play would solve the problem pretty neatly.

Ah, I like this- interesting.

fortunz
07-14-2010, 03:24 PM
Have you read the last post by forsaken. Thats my point about split boards you see how they try to devalue the juggling board?

As I said, I suspect both boards would be dominated by jugglers who also happen to be pretty good at not juggling. So why care if they think beforehand they'll own on the juggle free boards?

Not if you end the game before the interest timer expires. On Turnabout the best strategy is to kill all the last wave bosses save for one, and bounce it around until the timer expires. This will lead to an ABSURD amount of extra interest since it's ticking up 50-100 resources per second at that point leading to an extra 6,000 to 12,000 resources over NOT juggling. When the cost of towers to beat that round doesn't exceed 10,000 resources (and you start with 1000!), that seems a bit high doesn't it?

The game doesn't "end" early in the sense that interest would actually stop, according to Echo. The savings in juggling comes from interest earned on towers you didn't build and upgrades you didn't make.

I believe if we advance a wave you get an instant interest payment in the amount of how long it would have taken to come naturally :)

In addition, you get the remainder of the time at the end of the game in interest, even if you end it earlier.

TBird
07-14-2010, 03:39 PM
Not if you end the game before the interest timer expires. On Turnabout the best strategy is to kill all the last wave bosses save for one, and bounce it around until the timer expires. This will lead to an ABSURD amount of extra interest since it's ticking up 50-100 resources per second at that point leading to an extra 6,000 to 12,000 resources over NOT juggling. When the cost of towers to beat that round doesn't exceed 10,000 resources (and you start with 1000!), that seems a bit high doesn't it?

Sorry, but this is not correct, I actually made the same mistake.
Strangely, if you kill the final aliens quickly, the game adds the extra interest in-between the end of the mission and the final results/stats screen. To test this in one mission I killed the last wave of aliens very quick and ended up with 17000 resources in the mission. In the final results/stat screen I had 25000 listed. Just compare yourself.


As I said, I suspect both boards would be dominated by jugglers who also happen to be pretty good at not juggling. ?

No way :p you jugglers won't see my score anymore I'll be so far ahead at the top once we have separate leaderboards ;)

(It must be like this:
If someone beats my score, it has to be because he is juggling. And if I beat someone else's score it's because of my superior strategy :D )

fortunz
07-14-2010, 03:40 PM
(It must be like this:
If someone beats my score, it has to be because he is juggling. And if I beat someone else's score it's because of my superior strategy :D )

Heh. I don't doubt that's the thinking sometimes.

salmusco
07-14-2010, 04:09 PM
Well I did say I was the best now not the best ever. I can see your point probably not the best choice of words. I was just tring to add weight to what i was saying. I know that comment may annoy you to. I not saying your opion is wortless unless you beat my score. Your opion holds weight regardless. Rember you said my score was absurd and easy to make. I take that as an insult. So being that you have insulted me I said show me its easy to make thats all. I maybe i could nave used a beter choice of words but at least I never REALLY insulted anyone! Any ways lets try and move past this childishness. About the game. I willnot say this again. If you don't believe me ask JEFF. A while back people used to get huge scores by juggling aliens on the last wave for LONG periods of time. There was no time limit for interst to stop. Hidden path corrected this probelm by putting a time limit on interst of about 1 min after the last alien entered the board. HP designers didnot want to penialize people who killed the aliens before the time limit ran out so if you killem quick they add on to your score, the points and interst as if you juggled the last alien until the interst spots.

salmusco
07-14-2010, 04:23 PM
You say no juggler can beat beat you without juggling? Well look at the last wed challenge leader board Crossingal 15 towers . This board is not jugglable. Yet the top 3 are #1 Fortunz,#2 Sal #3 Takista. Bye the way Takista is A juggler who Just OWNS the non juggle boards. When it comes to non juggling boards Takista is the man and he is a juggler numbers back this up.

fortunz
07-14-2010, 04:59 PM
You say no juggler can beat beat you without juggling?

He put a winking smilie at the end, so I think he was playing around.

salmusco
07-14-2010, 05:26 PM
Ok I get it sorry T Bird. Anyway did you read the last post on wed challenge by Mondak. Talk about not feeling the love. Rooney Dangerfield gets more more respect then us jugglers. But all we do is win. Reguardless of the board. So let just keep kicking there butts.

fortunz
07-14-2010, 05:31 PM
Anyway did you read the last post on wed challenge by Mondak. Talk about not feeling the love.

Ah, he's a good guy. He doesn't like juggling, but it's his competition and he chose not to outlaw it anyway. That's pretty standup I think.

fortunz
07-14-2010, 06:28 PM
We seem to be having trouble getting on the same wave length. If you Kill them quick. You still get the same interst and points as if you juggled the last alien around until the interst stopped. The game was designed that way. Ask Jeff if you may. No I dont do that!

Probably more interest than if you killed them slow. After all, you'll be earning interest on the quickly killed alien boss for a longer period of time the earlier you make the kill.

Mondak
07-14-2010, 06:36 PM
Ok I get it sorry T Bird. Anyway did you read the last post on wed challenge by Mondak. Talk about not feeling the love. Rooney Dangerfield gets more more respect then us jugglers. But all we do is win. Regardless of the board. So let just keep kicking there butts.

C'mon - I didn't even say that J-word on a Juggle-queen of a map! Sure, my post showed a tiny bit of frustration. . . but really I just used my lack of Juggling to cover up for my pathetic score. Heck - I am the one who suggested we not obsess about juggling in the thread and instead suggested a second thread to discuss it (which is this one).

Maybe I should have used pink text or something so that the voice you used to read the post was a nice soothing gal so it didn't sound like I was mad or something. . . . as an aside, a year ago I embedded a font into a document that had little hearts over the "i"s and was meant to look like something a teenage girl used. I used it to give directions (orders?) to my programing team when they had thought I was too harsh in the past. Yes it was pink. Yes they have to do what I say regardless of whether I say it nice or not. Yes they laughed. I think the font was called "teenage angst" if I recall.

Ah, he's a good guy. He doesn't like juggling, but it's his competition and he chose not to outlaw it anyway. That's pretty standup I think.

Such a good dude. You know I wasn't bagging on anyone here. Thanks for standing up for me when I was not around.

Mondak
07-14-2010, 06:39 PM
You say no juggler can beat beat you without juggling? Well look at the last wed challenge leader board Crossingal 15 towers . This board is not jugglable. Yet the top 3 are #1 Fortunz,#2 Sal #3 Takista. Bye the way Takista is A juggler who Just OWNS the non juggle boards. When it comes to non juggling boards Takista is the man and he is a juggler numbers back this up.

Yep - the juggle-os really put up last week. The map was suggested by fortunz for gods sake so pretty good way to show that a good player is good and has many tools.

salmusco
07-14-2010, 07:05 PM
Ok if Fortunz says your a good man I believe him. No offense taken. 93k isn't a bad score. I could use your pink ink when your done with it. Alot of sensitive insulting people in this thread. Some them aren't even people there robots. Ha Ha

fortunz
07-14-2010, 07:27 PM
Some them aren't even people they're robots. Ha Ha

As a robot myself, I gotta tell you, that stings man. :(

Destructo-Bot
07-14-2010, 07:32 PM
Not if you end the game before the interest timer expires. On Turnabout the best strategy is to kill all the last wave bosses save for one, and bounce it around until the timer expires. This will lead to an ABSURD amount of extra interest since it's ticking up 50-100 resources per second at that point leading to an extra 6,000 to 12,000 resources over NOT juggling. When the cost of towers to beat that round doesn't exceed 10,000 resources (and you start with 1000!), that seems a bit high doesn't it?

To clarify this further, the extra earnings come from selling the kill towers early (much earlier than a non-juggle could) and that increases your resource pool which increases your interest gain... a double whammy.

Edit: And what fortunz said, the increased value from having not spent resources.

salmusco
07-14-2010, 07:45 PM
Well you got it. The extra money from not upgrading saving resources is what its about. The benifit of selling the towers at the end then juggling them around is not that great. There is not that much sell value of towers on a jugglers board. Maybe 3K. what the interst on 3k for 1 min.

salmusco
07-14-2010, 08:28 PM
About Gaining more interst by killem quick at the end. Yes I see you point. I have some times noticed a Larger score when I killed them quick I just was not sure why. Thanks for making that clear. Your pretty smart for a robot.;)

hiclass
07-14-2010, 11:35 PM
Back to the topic: seeing aliens decline in value the longer they are in play would solve the problem pretty neatly.

Ah, I like this- interesting.

Why interesting?

That suggetion only causes jugglers to upgrade more towers in the portion of maze that they use to bounce aliens. (Which otherwise they might keep most of them green).

At the first glance it seems to be a good suggestion, since it force jugglers to upgrade more towers and force them to loss more 25% of upgrading cost thus making juggling not so powerful (or cheap - the discriminative term).

But the author forget about the same limitation is also place on non-jugglers. It will be AS HARD for them to delay upgrading. Delaying upgrading is their only way to claim a little bit more interest (since thay never juggle - they themselve deny the most efficient way to delay/even avoid upgrading).

So, in brief, if you (Echo) really implement the above, you are only decrease overall scores of jugglers as well as the non-jugglers. i.e. the big gap between scores of the two parties will still exist... and I can assure you they will not be satisfy and will be back to request for more limitation in DG 3.

To be frank, I see a real good point in declining alien values in map... it adds more considerations to the game. One have to consider takes and gives between "keep saving resource" (by delaying upgrade/build of tower) or "gain bigger resource" (by quick killing of aliens while they still have high value)
Btw: the added value is tactical, not strategic, and it never helps at all in the effort of making the scores of jugglers and non-jugglers closer.

Let me add this, I think I also like the idea but I don't find it helping the non-jugglers at all and I would want to suggest the below:

To implement the system where every alien value decline once they enter the map, they must start with much higher value and has a lower bound value... which means they won't become a rubbish worth zero resource.

forsakenlight
07-15-2010, 02:37 AM
Oh hi. I know everything about everything and must have the final say in everything. I don't like anything that could decrease my juggle. See that fly over there? That could decrease my juggle so I must kill that fly. An earthquake in japan? No sir, not today. That could decrease my juggle.

You should join a circus if you are not already in one.
Sorry I just think this is all rather funny at this point.

Destructo-Bot
07-15-2010, 03:27 AM
We're trying to get back on track here. Let's all give it another chance eh?

hiclass
07-15-2010, 08:59 AM
Oh hi. I know everything about everything and must have the final say in everything.

Ha (1 time)


I don't like anything that could decrease my juggle. See that fly over there? That could decrease my juggle so I must kill that fly.

Ha! Ha! (2 times)


An earthquake in japan? No sir, not today. That could decrease my juggle.

Ha! Ha! Ha! (3 times)


You should join a circus if you are not already in one.
Sorry I just think this is all rather funny at this point.


and ...

Ha! ... Ha! (N times)

forsakenlight
07-15-2010, 01:56 PM
We're trying to get back on track here. Let's all give it another chance eh?

You might be. Hiclass and the juggle buddies are still content to shoot down anything that a) might decrease their scores at all b) would make them only be able to stroke each others ego's

Just split the boards across all maps and call it a day. I am sure there will be a therapy session for the juggle bros. :p

54x
07-16-2010, 01:40 AM
One interesting thought from reading this was to consider different leaderboards depending on whether or not you sold a tower. I'm not sure that solves the problem, but perhaps it puts scores in two different categories. Perhaps there is a better "rule" than "no towers sold".

Thoughts?

Jeff

I think a more elegant solution would be to cut off resource return for towers on a given slot after the second time they're sold- so you can make a couple of mistakes in what you want to place, or make one mistake and then change your tower type, but if you're repeatedly selling something you start hurting your score. Might be harder to code, though, depending on how you .

This would bump jugglers down from the top of the leaderboard rather than having two different scoreboards for different styles of play, but frankly if they want a more tactical TD, there are many other games they can play.

yangsapozol
07-16-2010, 03:10 AM
I use several skills to get higher score.

Juggling is one of them.
Selling L3 towers before interest stops is another.
Minimum fire-power building is the third.
........

In some sense, every map has bouncing element.
That is, alien-swarm is under attack of towers at least twice.

Juggling does maximize the attack times
and makes it possible to save resources.

And some maps like roundabout need juggling.
Without it, it's almost impossible to clear the map.

Why do you think juggling is an exploit ?
If high rankers use it, why not you ?

hiclass
07-16-2010, 03:36 AM
I think a more elegant solution would be to cut off resource return for towers on a given slot after the second time they're sold- so you can make a couple of mistakes in what you want to place, or make one mistake and then change your tower type, but if you're repeatedly selling something you start hurting your score. Might be harder to code, though, depending on how you .

This would bump jugglers down from the top of the leaderboard rather than having two different scoreboards for different styles of play, but frankly if they want a more tactical TD, there are many other games they can play.

1. Let say you are allowed to make N time mistakes, at N+1 time of selling a tower you get no resource. But I can still juggle without being cut off any resource for N time and further more I can then choose another tower (normally next to the one that I have just sold for number N times) to start all over again my juggling fun. Of course up to certain point I will have to stop juggling since I have sold all towers that I can use for juggling N times. So your suggestion is base on a wrong assumption, that is a juggling process can only be done with 2 towers... but that isn't the case most of the time.

2. The fundamental question is, jugglers pay as much as non-jugglers when buying the game, why should the non-jugglers 's request be honoured over the jugglers? They are requesting something crucial to be removed or banned to great extend, while we want it remain as it is. I am damn disappoointed with the Dev persons that have replies in this thread, they too seems to bias to the non-jugglers.

Ganjafear
07-16-2010, 04:12 AM
And some maps like roundabout need juggling.
Without it, it's almost impossible to clear the map.


No it is not, I scored 103k+ without juggling any aliens.

salmusco
07-16-2010, 02:08 PM
Yes I am a little disappointed also that it seems like the HP. team does lean towards the non jugglers side. I Have many #1 scores and i really feel like im a skilled player who earned these scores. I can image there are many non jugglers who think i dont deserve my scores.(who cares) But when the team leans toward there side instead of being in the middle its disapointing. We all are equally paying customers. Any way we jugglers continue to prove our worth in the wed challenge. And i believe we will continue to kick some tail! Think we will shut up the player haters:confused: yet.

Destructo-Bot
07-16-2010, 02:25 PM
The question to ask is:

Is the game about killing the aliens as quickly as possible?
or
Is the game about gathering resources?

Given the game setting, I feel that the first line is the right one. Resources are a means to an end, when you've got invaders the goal should be to eliminate them as quickly as possible... not to toy with them to get resources far in excess of what you need to defeat the level.

So I'm thinking perhaps a mix of modes in the campaign in DG2 to keep everyone happy (and only one leaderboard), a timed mode wherein the faster you kill aliens and end the map the higher your score, a classic mode (just like DG1), and a good blend of fixed path and open terrain maps for both.

yangsapozol
07-16-2010, 02:26 PM
Of course w/o juggling I can get gold in that mission too.

What I mean exactly by "almost impossible" is that
"a gamer can not beat the map with core untouchable by non juggling play"

Because I take "core untouchable" for granted while playing
for better score and ranking.

forsakenlight
07-16-2010, 02:44 PM
Of course w/o juggling I can get gold in that mission too.

What I mean exactly by "almost impossible" is that
"a gamer can not beat the map with core untouchable"

Because I take "core untouchable" for granted while playing
for better score and ranking.

Well if you did not blanket the map with nearly useless green towers you might find it easier to keep them away from your cores. But then of course you won't be getting your scores that are over double what is required for a gold medal.
I think honestly if juggling was intended the score required for gold would be quite a bit higher on those maps.
I honestly do not see why the juggle buddies get so worked up tho. I don't care if you top the charts, I do care that you brag about it and say your style of play is far superior.
Why do you care so much about imaginary numbers in a video game?

Honestly the only reason I can see for separating boards into sale and non-sale is bragging rights.
The games take like 10-15 minutes. Build a wrong tower? Backtrack or just start a new game, no big deal.
Even tho it is just a game I would kind of like to see how my scores stack up with other people who don't bounce aliens around like ping-pong balls.
So I mainly stick to maps where you can't do that.

fortunz
07-16-2010, 02:58 PM
I am damn disappoointed with the Dev persons that have replies in this thread, they too seems to bias to the non-jugglers.

To me they seem fairly open-minded. Here and elsewhere. Calling an idea "interesting" and even liking something that doesn't actually prevent juggling just doesn't seem that biased to me. The size of this thread is a testament to how many people are upset over juggling.

I remember when DTD introduced timer penalties on tower sales. Even though I juggled, I didn't mind. If anything, it increased the amount of skill required to juggle and made those willing to do it even more elite. If HP does something like split leaderboards that makes antijugs happy without banning juggling, I wouldn't have any problem with that at all.

So I'm thinking perhaps a mix of modes in the campaign in DG2 to keep everyone happy (and only one leaderboard), a timed mode wherein the faster you kill aliens and end the map the higher your score, a classic mode (just like DG1), and a good blend of fixed path and open terrain maps for both.

Split sell/no sell leaderboards almost seems simpler and instead of offering basically one juggle-reduced mode, it offers a juggle-free version of every other mode in the game with one basic tweak that works across all levels and modes.

Keep in mind that creating a kill time penalty that reduces the juggling advantage to something reasonable would require a lot of new game balancing test time -- time factors that might well vary depending on the length of a level and the number and type of waves, as well as the sensibilities of the person balancing (since they have to decide just how much of a score bonus is too much for juggling). Whereas a split leaderboard requires no new testing considerations, it just shuffles scores achieved in current ways to two different places. Even though I realize we're more likely talking about a sequel, I'm not eager to add to the team's testing time per level.

A split leaderboard also doesn't interfere with either play style. Jugglers can keep on juggling as they do now. Anti jugglers can bask in their purist style. At least in the timed kill penalty mode you suggest, jugglers won't get all the juggling benefit they're used to, but antijugglers will still see juggling that they prefer not to engage in rendering benefits.

fortunz
07-16-2010, 03:25 PM
I honestly do not see why the juggle buddies get so worked up tho. I don't care if you top the charts, I do care that you brag about it and say your style of play is far superior.
Why do you care so much about imaginary numbers in a video game?


You say you don't care, but your posts here indicate otherwise. Indeed, you seem more worked up about it than anyone.

Your posts are approaching "troll" status. You can't seem to make a post that doesn't mock people, and that's not cool. The topic is juggling, not jugglers.

You might be. Hiclass and the juggle buddies are still content to shoot down anything that a) might decrease their scores at all b) would make them only be able to stroke each others ego's

They disagree with you as you disagree with them. The main difference is they're talking about the game, while you're attacking people. Having your own opinion about the game and even sticking to it and disagreeing with others is welcome here. Trolling is not. Please embrace those of your arguments that tend toward reason like this one:

But then of course you won't be getting your scores that are over double what is required for a gold medal.
I think honestly if juggling was intended the score required for gold would be quite a bit higher on those maps.

I disagree with the above because I don't agree with underlying premise, that the gold medal should represent top or very near top gameplay. If it did, many achievements would be closed off to far more people, and I honestly believe the vast majority of achievements were intended to be almost universally available to a wide range of skill levels, not just experts. Gold scores on nearly every level are achievable by even beginners who are willing to play a couple of times.

However, notwithstanding my disagreement, that's a perfectly reasonable argument that is about the game. Constant belittling references to players as "juggle buddies" and mockery of their desire to see their scores compared to other jugglers is not about the game. It's designed to avoid reason and attack people. It's trolling.

Aesir Rising
07-16-2010, 04:46 PM
A cheap strat example is where you go against the designer's intent - even if the game allows it (due to developer oversight in the implementation). This is also a 'bug', though not often understood as one since there is no error message or obviously wrong thing happening. This type of bug is where you have unintended results, but it is still a bug.

That said, if juggling is just selling towers and rebuilding them in a different place (rinse, repeat) I'm inclined to think it is largely intended. If there are specific maps where this works "too well" according to the game designer's intent, then a map change/fix for gameplay and balance purposes may be warranted.

Ganjafear
07-16-2010, 04:54 PM
Of course w/o juggling I can get gold in that mission too.

What I mean exactly by "almost impossible" is that
"a gamer can not beat the map with core untouchable by non juggling play"

Because I take "core untouchable" for granted while playing
for better score and ranking.

You often score much higher by letting the aliens travel a bit with some cores instead of spending extra resources on upgrading towers to kill them before they reach the cores. On some maps you can even plan core returns with waves for your benefit, an example is "out of fuel - green towers only" where I time the core returns to split up the two rumblers in the end so they do not walk down at the same time.

fortunz
07-16-2010, 05:44 PM
A cheap strat example is where you go against the designer's intent - even if the game allows it (due to developer oversight in the implementation). This is also a 'bug', though not often understood as one since there is no error message or obviously wrong thing happening. This type of bug is where you have unintended results, but it is still a bug.

That said, if juggling is just selling towers and rebuilding them in a different place (rinse, repeat) I'm inclined to think it is largely intended. If there are specific maps where this works "too well" according to the game designer's intent, then a map change/fix for gameplay and balance purposes may be warranted.

Although I don't entirely agree with your definition (I think complex games lead to lots of things developers don't necessarily anticipate, but still aren't cheap), the devs have weighed in and (confirming your instincts) stated that they considered this beforehand (which isn't surprising, since juggling isn't exactly new to TD) and decided to keep it anyway. Link (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15868132&postcount=44).

On some maps you can even plan core returns with waves for your benefit, an example is "out of fuel - green towers only" where I time the core returns to split up the two rumblers
in the end so they do not walk down at the same time.

Good point. Another example is on some maps I let the cores get out of the housing before a flier wave that would be very expensive to kill off completely. I save both on towers that would have been necessary to keep the cores in their housing and on additional towers that would have been needed to to kill all fliers. I lose interest, but on some maps it works in my favor. I can't remember the last map I did that on, but I'm pretty sure it was in Resurgence.

forsakenlight
07-16-2010, 07:12 PM
You say you don't care, but your posts here indicate otherwise. Indeed, you seem more worked up about it than anyone.

Your posts are approaching "troll" status. You can't seem to make a post that doesn't mock people, and that's not cool. The topic is juggling, not jugglers.



They disagree with you as you disagree with them. The main difference is they're talking about the game, while you're attacking people. Having your own opinion about the game and even sticking to it and disagreeing with others is welcome here. Trolling is not. Please embrace those of your arguments that tend toward reason like this one:



I disagree with the above because I don't agree with underlying premise, that the gold medal should represent top or very near top gameplay. If it did, many achievements would be closed off to far more people, and I honestly believe the vast majority of achievements were intended to be almost universally available to a wide range of skill levels, not just experts. Gold scores on nearly every level are achievable by even beginners who are willing to play a couple of times.

However, notwithstanding my disagreement, that's a perfectly reasonable argument that is about the game. Constant belittling references to players as "juggle buddies" and mockery of their desire to see their scores compared to other jugglers is not about the game. It's designed to avoid reason and attack people. It's trolling.

My posts for the most part are not meant to be taken serious which seems to be what you like to do. Juggle all you want. You don't like my style of humor? I can live with that.

As to you refuting me on scores. Ok so lets see over 1000 people have more than 20k resources above gold on height of confusion - story. Over 2000 have more than 10k. It does not seem people are having much trouble getting that gold on juggle map buddy. Got almost 80k the first time I played it. About the same for turnabout.
And I thought getting a gold medal was supposed to mean something hm? I am far from the best gamer around and I get gold medals almost always on the first try, usually without any kind of big plan. Heck most the time all you need is a bunch of guns and a few temporals.
And this is my second tower defense game, I played some flash game where you keep ants from getting cake for maybe an hour.

I enjoy the game, I check my scores to others and see if I can do any better. I joke around and offer my opinions. At the end of the day does it matter if I have the have score or if they change the game? No.
Does this mean I am going to stop playing the game or posting in the forums? No.

yangsapozol
07-16-2010, 07:24 PM
You often score much higher by letting the aliens travel a bit with some cores instead of spending extra resources on upgrading towers to kill them before they reach the cores. On some maps you can even plan core returns with waves for your benefit, an example is "out of fuel - green towers only" where I time the core returns to split up the two rumblers in the end so they do not walk down at the same time.


First.
Yes. In some maps,
I made use of relay killing aliens carrying cores.

Second.
In Out of fuel do not show up 2 rumblers but 2 crashers.

Third.
I searched your ranking in the leaderboard.
It was #146 (148-2 cheaters).
That means your strategy leaves much room to improve.

fortunz
07-16-2010, 07:51 PM
As to you refuting me on scores. Ok so lets see over 1000 people have more than 20k resources above gold on height of confusion - story. Over 2000 have more than 10k. It does not seem people are having much trouble getting that gold on juggle map buddy. Got almost 80k the first time I played it. About the same for turnabout.

It sounds like you're agreeing with me. The gold medal was designed to be accessible to the general public, and ergo shouldn't be used to demonstrate juggling scores are too high. Experts should be scoring dramatically above the gold threshold on all levels.

Destructo-Bot
07-16-2010, 08:14 PM
I very much doubt any major changes would be introduced to Defense Grid. Likely any suggestions would be in DG2.

Defense Grid is probably going to be just the way it is forever, but there is clearly a divide about certain strategies, and it can't hurt to look at it closely.

At the end of the day, you are simply going to have to rely on the devs being able to distill the myriad of ideas and suggestions into something that's better than the sum of its parts.

Echo
07-16-2010, 08:29 PM
I very much doubt any major changes would be introduced to Defense Grid. Likely any suggestions would be in DG2.

Defense Grid is probably going to be just the way it is forever, but there is clearly a divide about certain strategies, and it can't hurt to look at it closely.

At the end of the day, you are simply going to have to rely on the devs being able to distill the myriad of ideas and suggestions into something that's better than the sum of its parts.

We do completely appreciate the ideas though :)

forsakenlight
07-16-2010, 08:41 PM
It sounds like you're agreeing with me. The gold medal was designed to be accessible to the general public, and ergo shouldn't be used to demonstrate juggling scores are too high. Experts should be scoring dramatically above the gold threshold on all levels.

Ok I can see that but I am no expert. The few times I do good is mainly because I get lucky or I spend hours on the challenge. Usually both. :(
I am sorry if I get under your skin but I am used to people taking me lightly so I have a bit of a big mouth(hands?)
:o

A good example is I had a bad time with mission 20 till I went to youtube.
OK I will cut back on my friendly jibes around here.
But the juggle brothers would make a good circus....last one I promise.

zenpunk
07-16-2010, 08:57 PM
Just adding my 2 cents, in reference to the original poster's question....

Personally, I think juggling (or ping-ponging as I called it to myself before I visited the forums) is 'cheating'... a minor cheat, yes, but still a cheat... simply because it obviously wasn't intended by the devs when they balanced things. On most maps if you juggle you can attain much MUCH higher scores than if you didn't juggle. And I believe I even recently read the devs even directly said that when they balanced the maps they didn't require any orbital laser or juggling, or even any selling of towers at all.

So I hope for the next update, or game,the devs just factor juggling into the balance. Maybe penalize a little score for each tower sold? Or if they can't find a way to make that work and keep balance, another option would be to simply add an additional 'advance mode' game type, along with challenge mode, 15 tower limit, only green towers, etc. The new game type could simply be 'no selling of towers'. That way, people who like juggling can compete on the leader boards on the regular map, and people who don't like juggling can compete on the 'no selling of towers' leader boards, and everyone is happy. :)

fortunz
07-16-2010, 09:49 PM
Ok I can see that but I am no expert. The few times I do good is mainly because I get lucky or I spend hours on the challenge. Usually both. :(

Nothing wrong with that. Everyone took time to get good.

But the juggle brothers would make a good circus....last one I promise.

I would actually pay to see the juggle bros circus. ;)

Personally, I think juggling (or ping-ponging as I called it to myself before I visited the forums) is 'cheating'... a minor cheat, yes, but still a cheat... simply because it obviously wasn't intended by the devs when they balanced things.

Thanks for posting zenpunk. :) Most of our talk of intentions has been whether devs intended to allow juggling, and they did (see a a post by Echo (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15868132&postcount=44)), but you seem to be referring to balancing of score thresholds, somewhat similar to what forsakenlight mentioned.

And you're right, no juggling is required to get gold medals. But then, neither are a lot of fair play tactics that can lead to higher scores -- for example, using guns to take out both ariels and ground aliens so you don't spend on missiles. You can actually waste a lot of money on most levels and still get gold, but it isn't even a minor cheat to use your resources more effectively and get a higher score due to it.

To me, that's only persuasive in showing that juggling is advanced tactic and that you aren't required to be an advanced player to get gold; the low threshold is less persuasive to me to show that juggling is a cheap tactic. I'm not dismissing what you're saying, just explaining why it doesn't persuade me.

So I hope for the next update, or game,the devs just factor juggling into the balance. Maybe penalize a little score for each tower sold?

A lot of focus here has been on split leaderboards (if you sell a tower you go on one, if you make no sales, you go on the other) and one more recent suggestion was to reduce resource recovery the longer an alien is on the map (jugglers will take longer to kill each alien) to achieve greater parity between juggle and non juggle scores. I had suggested (grudgingly, as opposed to other solutions I liked less) a monetary penalty for selling towers, but so far no one else seemed to like that one. The split leaderboards would have the the effect of basically creating a new challenge mode for each and every mode (something similar to another of your suggestions) -- a no sell 15 tower challenge, a no sell grinder, etc, and of all the suggestions, split boards are the least objectionable to me.

Maybe this weekend I'll try to link to some of the more important posts in the first post so newcomers can find them easier. It's an awfully long thread to read through if you just got here, but there might be some posts newcomers would want to see.

TBird
07-17-2010, 12:41 AM
The split leaderboards would have the the effect of basically creating a new challenge mode for each and every mode.


If this was an Activision/Blizzard game we would see the following announcement for the introduction of split leaderboards:

"Attention gamers! Now for only 15$ you can buy the new "Split Power" DLC, which doubles the amount of challenge modes in Defense Grid!"

:eek: ;)

hiclass
07-17-2010, 12:46 AM
The question to ask is:

Is the game about killing the aliens as quickly as possible?
or
Is the game about gathering resources?

Given the game setting, I feel that the first line is the right one. Resources are a means to an end, when you've got invaders the goal should be to eliminate them as quickly as possible... not to toy with them to get resources far in excess of what you need to defeat the level.

So I'm thinking perhaps a mix of modes in the campaign in DG2 to keep everyone happy (and only one leaderboard), a timed mode wherein the faster you kill aliens and end the map the higher your score, a classic mode (just like DG1), and a good blend of fixed path and open terrain maps for both.

That is why the more I think about your suggestion on declining alien value, the more I like it. That feature adds extra condition: you gain more by killing alien faster... and it never sites either party (jugglers and non-jugglers are both affected)

fortunz
07-17-2010, 12:51 AM
"Attention gamers! Now for only 15$ you can buy the new "Split Power" DLC, which doubles the amount of challenge modes in Defense Grid!"

:eek: ;)

And everyone would just be thrilled that there was no monthly subscription fee :D

Poor activision. Companies that screw their talent, practice franchise necromancy, and shiv their customers don't get no respect. :(

Ganjafear
07-17-2010, 12:53 AM
First.
Yes. In some maps,
I made use of relay killing aliens carrying cores.

Second.
In Out of fuel do not show up 2 rumblers but 2 crashers.

Third.
I searched your ranking in the leaderboard.
It was #146 (148-2 cheaters).
That means your strategy leaves much room to improve.

I did not say my score was perfect, I said that you could plan it to benefit. If the crasher takes one core instead of three, and they split up at the same time, allowing you to make better use of your towers all the way down while getting just a tiny bit more interest because you have two more cores in your base, it is a clear benefit hands down.

What I mean exactly by "almost impossible" is that
"a gamer can not beat the map with core untouchable by non juggling play"

I can beat turnabout without cores being touched and without juggling, but it requires me to upgrade more towers than I really need and therefore my score will be lower.

hiclass
07-17-2010, 01:19 AM
To me they seem fairly open-minded. Here and elsewhere. Calling an idea "interesting" and even liking something that doesn't actually prevent juggling just doesn't seem that biased to me. The size of this thread is a testament to how many people are upset over juggling.

Flip through this thread and you should see 3 categories of posts:
1. Those who request one way or another to curb juggling
2. Those who against penalty on juggling and want it to remain as it is. (I have contributed a lot in this category)
3. Those who are interested in finding out what exactly is juggling.

There also are many in this thread belongs to category 3. but sound agressive as though they are in 2. (I think that is what make you think many really aginst juggling)

I notcie a funny phenomena, there are players who don't even clear about how interest system works (for me that immediately means they are as blur as how juggling works). But there they are, standing up and shout very loudy juggling should be stopped... they are basically losers on the leaderboard... they don't actually come here to protest the possibility of juggling in DG, they just want to support anything that will handicap others who always beat them on the leaderboard.


I remember when DTD introduced timer penalties on tower sales. Even though I juggled, I didn't mind. If anything, it increased the amount of skill required to juggle and made those willing to do it even more elite.

Thank you!
Not because you support juggling, but because you sound very fair! You just want future DG to be more feature rich. In this issue I definitely agree with you.


Split sell/no sell leaderboards almost seems simpler and instead of offering basically one juggle-reduced mode, it offers a juggle-free version of every other mode in the game with one basic tweak that works across all levels and modes.

I think a "No sell" mode in all juggling possible levels is better than a totally splited leaderboard.
That make it sounds perfect, because there isn't a need of "No sell" in juggling-impossible levels.

If the gentleman who have started the thread suggesting a split leaderboard instead suggested a new "No sell" mode... I will have agreed with him right at the beginning. My philosophy is simple, by adding this mode it give juggler a change to prove to any non-juggler, see I am as good and better than you even when not juggling or the other way round, for a non-juggler to prove to any juggler, see for the same level, you beats me with juggling, but you just can't in this "No sell" mode, that prove I am strategically better than you though you might be tactically stronger than me... that should be very interesting.

Ganjafear
07-17-2010, 01:22 AM
But can we agree that using 150+ towers in a "15 tower" mode is not in any way intended?

hiclass
07-17-2010, 01:35 AM
I enjoy the game, I check my scores to others and see if I can do any better. I joke around and offer my opinions. At the end of the day does it matter if I have the have score or if they change the game? No.
Does this mean I am going to stop playing the game or posting in the forums? No.

Hi dear, if I invite you, will you join my friend-list?

I confess, I have completed DG with a crack copy offline.
After I bought DG from STEAM, I restart everything (tough I am quite bussy with my work recently and not really play as much as in the past)
So, I currently only arrive at containment level (the level before Turn About) for this round.

and

I confess again, the reason I want you to be on my friend list is for me to easily see how many time I can beat you with juggling... will you?

fortunz
07-17-2010, 01:42 AM
But can we agree that using 150+ towers in a "15 tower" mode is not in any way intended?

Nope :p ;)

That make it sounds perfect, because there isn't a need of "No sell" in juggling-impossible levels.

While there's no anti-juggling reason to have a no sell leaderboard on a juggle-proof level, the no sell leaderboards will at least theoretically have a layer of difficulty in that you cannot place a cheap tower somewhere early only to sell and replace it with something more expensive later (ex. inferno at beginning replaced by concussion or meteor). Further, as I mentioned earlier, it isn't complicated to not split juggle-proof maps' leaderboards while splitting the juggleable maps. Just a thought.

hiclass
07-17-2010, 01:57 AM
Nope :p ;)



While there's no anti-juggling reason to have a no sell leaderboard on a juggle-proof level, the no sell leaderboards will at least theoretically have a layer of difficulty in that you cannot place a cheap tower somewhere early only to sell and replace it with something more expensive later (ex. inferno at beginning replaced by concussion or meteor). Further, as I mentioned earlier, it isn't complicated to not split juggle-proof maps' leaderboards while splitting the juggleable maps. Just a thought.

The main reason I am against spliting leaderboard is, by its nature, it inevitably splits players into 2 groups. Altough one might just play and score in both the boards, but he/she will still take one of group as the one he/she belong to.
In future, when something new (be it a feature or alien type or tower type) is to be introduced, we can easily end up to have 2 groups here with conflict of interest as I have mentioned in my post.

and

There is another even bigger fear I have.
Current DG leaderboard is so difficult to operate, I can't imagine if additional leaderboard is introduced. Man... how am I going to figure out how many times have I beaten ForSakingNight here and there...

RalphMalph
07-17-2010, 10:34 AM
2. The fundamental question is, jugglers pay as much as non-jugglers when buying the game, why should the non-jugglers 's request be honoured over the jugglers? They are requesting something crucial to be removed or banned to great extend, while we want it remain as it is. I am damn disappoointed with the Dev persons that have replies in this thread, they too seems to bias to the non-jugglers.

..and here is the classic "we paid for the game too, we can play it however we want" exploit defense.

Even the dev statement linked here repeatedly by the exploiters acknowledges that juggling is not in the spirit of the game.

But you all keep stroking it, because it is funny.

fortunz
07-17-2010, 11:46 AM
Even the dev statement linked here repeatedly by the exploiters acknowledges that juggling is not in the spirit of the game.


Actually, that's not what he said.

The main reason I am against spliting leaderboard is, by its nature, it inevitably splits players into 2 groups.

We already are split into multiple groups (see the past 14 pages ;) ). Splitting the leaderboards just acknowledges what's already happened and better serves the whole DG community. As to balancing conflicts, the devs are always going to balance the game so that it isn't hostile to newcomers, because that's where the sales are. It hasn't made advanced tactics irrelevant yet, and I don't anticipate it will in the future.

salmusco
07-17-2010, 01:54 PM
Quote " I support Monetary penalty for selling towers." Brother are you losing the faith? I make no consession to the devs.(now you guys got me saying this word.);)y that would make it seem juuglers should be penalized.:confused: Anyway dont we already lose 25$ for selling?

salmusco
07-17-2010, 02:03 PM
Where is it written that we always got to do what the devs.(theres that word again)intend? As Fortunz says they knew people would juggle but the team left it as part of the game and not a cheat. I mean i spent my money. Why do i gotta do what they intend if its not a cheat.:confused: (speaking of no juggling on 15 limit)

hiclass
07-17-2010, 02:11 PM
..and here is the classic "we paid for the game too, we can play it however we want" exploit defense.

Even the dev statement linked here repeatedly by the exploiters acknowledges that juggling is not in the spirit of the game.

But you all keep stroking it, because it is funny.

A more classical response will be "I pay for the game too, don't listen to those losers, listen to me", I want the below:

1. Give me a type of tower which is cheap and incur no sell penalty. I don't mind the tower is without firepower, but it must be cheap, say cost only 1 unit of resource.

2. If the same type of tower is built more than once at a spot, please give bonus instead of penalty. Juggling deserves encouragement for it produces only winners.

3. For the sake of juggling, I would like to suggest increment of alien value when it is moving on the map.

Finally, I try to be nice and fair to the non-jugglers, Dev please give them a split leaderboard if they choose to play DG without the above 1. to 3.

fortunz
07-17-2010, 02:37 PM
Quote " I support Monetary penalty for selling towers." Brother are you losing the faith? I make no consession to the devs.(now you guys got me saying this word.);)y that would make it seem juuglers should be penalized.:confused: Anyway dont we already lose 25$ for selling?

Use the quote button (you can block out and delete the non-relevant portions after you do). It's more accurate and might make you feel better. After you do, you'll see my position has not changed. ;)

hiclass
07-17-2010, 09:38 PM
Use the quote button (you can block out and delete the non-relevant portions after you do). It's more accurate and might make you feel better. After you do, you'll see my position has not changed. ;)

Hi fortunz,

Do you know the function of the other button? ... the one next to the [Quote] button. Every time I click it, it turns from [""+] to [""-] and then nothing happen...

fortunz
07-17-2010, 09:40 PM
Hi fortunz,

Do you know the function of the other button? ... the one next to the Quote button. Every time I click it, it turns from [""+] to [""-] and then nothing happen...

It's multi quote. Press the multiquote on every post you want to quote, then press the normal quote on the last post (or post reply at the bottom), and it will bring up the editing box with all selected posts quoted.

hiclass
07-18-2010, 02:41 AM
It's multi quote. Press the multiquote on every post you want to quote, then press the normal quote on the last post (or post reply at the bottom), and it will bring up the editing box with all selected posts quoted.

Thanks!

Ganjafear
07-18-2010, 12:32 PM
Did anybody actually see how many people are juggling? From what I have seen on the scoreboards only a few people are successful at juggling. This pretty much hints that it is only a minority of the players who actually use the tactic, so what about making a single "Juggle mode" for each map which requires a much higher score for gold, and cutting off the ability of juggling on the other modes? Then the jugglers can compete in that mode for the scores, and everybody else will have a fair shot at placing highest on the scoreboards on the other modes.

You will likely argue that everybody else should just juggle, but that would make the game way less approachable and borderline boring(for me at least), and I think a lot of people would just move on and find another game where they can compete against their friends be it on scoreboards or in multiplayer.

Mondak
07-18-2010, 12:40 PM
Let me go with a hypothetical to change focus away from some of the name calling and silliness in the thread. hiclass gave an example that I am going to steal bits of it (without permission of course) for a moment.

If you had a tower that was cheap (cost =1), and acted like a blocking tower, when would the game stop being fun? Let's then say that you could keep trapping waves on a particular map until they had all spawned but really only have one green gun tower doing damage. Sure it might take hours to kill all the creeps, but you sure would have a great score.

Perhaps there is some corollary between people who enjoy Grinder modes and people who like juggling. To me, even if I pulled off the above due to perfect juggling and the highest possible score, I can't say that I would have found it even remotely fun. The thing is, that perhaps jugglers are wired differently at some fundamental level as to what elements of a game they might enjoy. If that is the case, there truly is no way to bring this discussion to any kind of conclusion that either party would find acceptable.

PS - please read this post in your grandma's voice instead of the voice of some angry internet troll trying to piss people off. Your grandma would never do that (not that I know anything about any of your gramdma's. . . if she was a mean old hag, use the fairy godmother voice from Cinderella in place.)

salmusco
07-18-2010, 01:49 PM
I would rather read the post in the voice of a soothing hot chicks voice rather then grandmoms.;) You no with the hot pink ink! Well its a family post so lets move on. Now please read this in the pink ink.(the folling ink is pink) This is what you non jugs just dont dont get. If you use one green gun and juggled perfectly you would get a bad score. You got to still kill them at some what of a desent rate! The longer it takes to killem less interst that will be gained. Key upgrades at just the right time is what makes a gamers score better. Its not just mindless sending them around a green gun as you guys think. Juggling requires much tactical skill,Pacience,and upgrading at just the right moment it is for the advanced gamers!I mean thats why us jugglers score so well on nonjuggilng boards. My freind Takista is a genius nothing he does is easy he makes use of the practices of an advanced gamer.(warning pink ink alert)Because non jugs.dont practice juggling they just dont get it. They speak from a lack of experience and knowlege. The difference on the fundmently level we play to win because a we play the whole game not just half. Hey I know your a good guy so forgive me.Think I may Have run out of that pink stuff with this response.

Ganjafear
07-18-2010, 02:04 PM
Key upgrades at just the right time is what makes a gamers score better. Its not just mindless sending them around a green gun as you guys think. Juggling requires much tactical skill,Pacience,and upgrading at just the right moment it is for the advanced gamers!I mean thats why us jugglers score so well on nonjuggilng boards. My freind Takista is a genius nothing he does is easy he makes use of the practices of an advanced gamer.(warning pink ink alert)Because non jugs.dont practice juggling they just dont get it. They speak from a lack of experience and knowlege.

Now read my post with pink ink as well, because I really do not intend any harm and I enjoy a nice tone on forums.

How many are "you"? I would very much like to see some numbers on jugglers because I really think you are very few(and also very touchy/passionate on the subject).

Takista plays eight hours of defense grid a day(I checked his community page) and has almost 4000! games played. Now I do not know if he works for the company as a tester, which would make it his job and explain the many hours, but that is an insane amount of hours invested so of course he plays as "an advanced gamer". It is called trial and error/experience and to some extend bruteforcing.

As a minor challenge pick a popular map where you cannot juggle/do not juggle for the wednesday challenge, then it might be a bit more challenging.

salmusco
07-18-2010, 02:28 PM
To pick a non juggling map.yep thats my intent.We non jugglers do fair well on non(juggling maps) just incase your imlpying wont dont. see last wed. challenge non juggle map .top 3 fortunz takista,and Sal(Crossed sighals 15 tower limit)To find out how many we are jst look at the leader boards and see how many of us are usingmore towers than usual.Note every not have to use as many towers as i to be a juggler. Now sorry but I shall get back to in a few hours less talk more laser!

Ganjafear
07-18-2010, 02:42 PM
I am not implying anything. Obviously "jugglers" will do well on non juggling maps as well as they probably spend a fair bit of time on those also. The playing field will just be more levelled, and the competition might be more fun/close. I look forward to wednesday even though I in no way think I will win.

fortunz
07-18-2010, 03:58 PM
How many are "you"? I would very much like to see some numbers on jugglers because I really think you are very few(and also very touchy/passionate on the subject).


I suspect from this thread that the "touchy/passionate" description applies fairly evenly across jugglers and those opposed. As passionate as some jugglers are to keep the game's mechanics stable, there are an awful lot of players adamant that it's cheap, or cheating or unfair or ruins the fun etc. Most of us, on both sides, are fairly even minded about the whole thing.

This pretty much hints that it is only a minority of the players who actually use the tactic, so what about making a single "Juggle mode" for each map which requires a much higher score for gold, and cutting off the ability of juggling on the other modes? Then the jugglers can compete in that mode for the scores, and everybody else will have a fair shot at placing highest on the scoreboards on the other modes.

I still think split leaderboards are both easier to implement and better for the community. Jugglers are fewer in number than non-jugglers, but advanced users of anything serve a greater purpose than just a single sale. They also drive other users to a product. Why not have twice as many modes to the game rather than one extra mode? The fact that reaching a certain plateau (non-juggling excellence) doesn't mean the game is over is also a selling point, even for people who will never juggle. It means the potential life of the product they buy is longer and could fund more entertainment hours. What percentage of people play Deity mode on Civ Rev? It's the only mode I play, but I'd wager I'm in a small minority. Nominalizing that mode (you'd basically be getting rid of juggle campaign challenge, juggle grinder, juggler super grinder, juggle 15 tower, juggle 20k, juggle practice etc) would also mean nominalizing some of your best salespeople and support staff.

Even if some penalty is put in place to make juggling harder/even out the score distribution, I'd still like to see split boards and consider it a superior solution to one extra mode. Save extra mode-making energy for new stuff, like poison core, super grinder and reverse story were.

salmusco
07-18-2010, 05:17 PM
I'm not going quote you;but i still dont no why you should want to concede making juggling harder? I argee with hi Class. Except I demand a blocking tower that cost no rescoures;) Boards that are never fixed and you know more rescoures for killing them slow! I want wed challenge boards to always be juggling boards. I Think non juggling is easy and a cheap tactic for beginners.

fortunz
07-18-2010, 05:34 PM
I'm not going quote you;)but i still dont no why you should want to concede making juggling harder?

If you quoted me, you'd see I hadn't conceded making juggling harder. ;)

I had suggested (grudgingly, as opposed to other solutions I liked less) a monetary penalty for selling towers, but so far no one else seemed to like that one.

Grudgingly suggesting to someone that they lobby for monetary penalties rather than something more draconian is not the same as asking the devs to use monetary penalties. I never said this:
" I support Monetary penalty for selling towers."

While I don't concede juggling should be penalized at all, if the rules are different in a sequel, I'll adapt to the new rules, as will everyone. That's not so much a position as it is common sense.

salmusco
07-18-2010, 05:56 PM
Thankyou for making that clear. Sorry for wrong quote:(

Destructo-Bot
07-18-2010, 06:28 PM
Another idea is variable tower resale value. They start to pay for their build cost as they destroy aliens.

Sell a gun tower that hasn't done any damage/kills, and you lose 99 resources on the sale. Sell a tower that has been firing on / killing aliens non-stop and you get almost all the value back.

salmusco
07-18-2010, 06:52 PM
You lobby for that but I demand a no resource tower.Just a block.so I may juggling around my one green gun for hours.:D I lobby for the non juggle learder board to have an asterick next to it. * Leader board for beginers!(who s--- at juggling!;))

fortunz
07-18-2010, 07:15 PM
Thankyou for making that clear. Sorry for wrong quote:(

I really wasn't trying rub your nose in it or anything, just clarifying the record, and no harm was done. :)

Mondak
07-18-2010, 08:24 PM
Thanks for the response salmusco. I have certainly seen that jugglers have skill. Fortunz proved that beyond a doubt with that non-juggleable map a couple weeks ago.

I swear I "get" it. I also don't deny that juggling gets a better score. I don't even deny it is a part of the game. I am saying it isn't more FUN for me at all. It makes the game seem like a grind instead of anything that resembles "game". That is really the point I am trying to make. I don't think you see it as a grind. For you . . . it IS fun.

Perhaps some of the folks who are disagreeing with you can't pull off juggling and they are bitter because they suck. But maybe there are folks who are disagreeing with you who don't suck, but really just don't find it fun. To them it would seem like it ruins the game even though it clearly has its benefits.

salmusco
07-18-2010, 08:41 PM
Thank you for the response. Pink ink and all i am glad you did not take offense. My response was very blunt and strong. Just trying to make people see that if you have not tryed it you really dont know that much about it . You get it but not totally. Those that dont practice it cant under the skill involved.Some people say its cheap that really means so is our scores and our effort! Even though I understand and respect some of the non juggles opions. Sour grapes for many of you thats the way I see it.

hiclass
07-19-2010, 07:53 AM
If you quoted me, you'd see I hadn't conceded making juggling harder. ;)



Grudgingly suggesting to someone that they lobby for monetary penalties rather than something more draconian is not the same as asking the devs to use monetary penalties. I never said this:


While I don't concede juggling should be penalized at all, if the rules are different in a sequel, I'll adapt to the new rules, as will everyone. That's not so much a position as it is common sense.

There are mainly 2 kinds of people in this world:
1. Those who will tollerate different or opposite opinion/preference
2. Those who will NOT tollerate different or opposite opinion/preference

The problem here is, any one who is a non-juggler in this thread that requests a limitation or removal of juggling belong to group 2 above. When he/she doesn't like something, he/she also wants a stop of others to do that thing. My principle is never tollerate with them.

Destructo-Bot
07-19-2010, 10:49 AM
Thanks for the response salmusco. I have certainly seen that jugglers have skill. Fortunz proved that beyond a doubt with that non-juggleable map a couple weeks ago.

I swear I "get" it. I also don't deny that juggling gets a better score. I don't even deny it is a part of the game. I am saying it isn't more FUN for me at all. It makes the game seem like a grind instead of anything that resembles "game". That is really the point I am trying to make. I don't think you see it as a grind. For you . . . it IS fun.

Perhaps some of the folks who are disagreeing with you can't pull off juggling and they are bitter because they suck. But maybe there are folks who are disagreeing with you who don't suck, but really just don't find it fun. To them it would seem like it ruins the game even though it clearly has its benefits.

I am not a fan of juggling and was 2nd place by a good margin in the last challenge. Sal just likes to use fallacies as if they were actual arguments.

Another interesting point someone noted is that many of the jugglers seem to like the Grinder modes, while those that don't like juggling can't seem to stand it and see it as tedious. It seems like there is simply a difference of what kind of mechanic the groups find as fun. For one group, juggling is fun and generally gets you a better score. For the other, juggling is tedious but may be necessary if you are wanting to post high on the leaderboards.

So one group should still find juggling fun if the rewards are toned down because they like the mechanic itself, while the other group doesn't necessarily have to deal with a mechanic they abhor if they want to post on the leaderboards.

And to reiterate points I've stated multiple times, I'm fine with "light" juggling. Sometimes it makes sense... but for maps like turnabout where you can juggle the entire round non-stop and beat it with almost no upgrades is excessive and makes the aliens seem not a threat.

Mobious918
07-19-2010, 12:56 PM
I think the easiest way to solve the "ZOMG JUGGLER BEAT MY SCORE!!!" issue on the leaderboard would be to have an additional stat: points divided by towers built. This would show the true master of efficency on the leaderboard IMO.

As for the juggling issue in general, I personally find it cheap cuz all you're doing is making the creeps run in a circle which kinda defeats the purpose. The creaps are supposed to have access to the cores, havin them loop back and forth by messing with the AI is just that: messing with the AI. I they cant touch the cores, they arent a threat, and that just makes the game boring. I don't play strategy games to find loopholes and have it be a cakewalk, I play them cuz they're difficult and to have it hand my butt to me on a silver platter when I fail.

salmusco
07-19-2010, 01:39 PM
I respect your opion that juggling may be boring to you. You say juggling is cheap. Have you ever juggled? I mean more then just a few times so then how can you really know about some thing you never do? You speak from a lack of experience and knowelge then don't you? .

salmusco
07-19-2010, 01:55 PM
What fallacies do you speak of? For example? while I respect everyone opion REGARDLESS of score. Your 108 was not bad but there is still much room for improvement. Being 14k behind does not show me how easy my score is to make. Try next time juggling them all around one green gun thats my tip. I dont see why anyone should be penalized for the way they choose to play split leader would be much fairer.

Destructo-Bot
07-19-2010, 02:34 PM
Fallacy: Someone who doesn't like to juggle isn't good at the game.
Fallacy: Someone who doesn't like to juggle doesn't know how to juggle properly.

Splitting the leaderboards splits the player base. I'm against splitting. It's a solution perhaps, but I don't think it's a great one.

salmusco
07-19-2010, 02:54 PM
Think there are many good players who don't like to juggle. Although if they dont juggle there only playing half the game and they are not always playing to win. But hey that there choice doesn't mean there still not good. You dont like to juggle yet you juggle ok at it you do it properly .But if you dont like juggling your probably not going be that good at it.

fortunz
07-19-2010, 04:09 PM
Splitting the leaderboards splits the player base. I'm against splitting. It's a solution perhaps, but I don't think it's a great one.

The leaderboards are already split off of the main mode for story challenge, 20k, grinder, 15 tower etc, which makes a lot of sense because the modes are different. I don't see how a no sell split is really different from a mode split, and the split seems equally rational since no sell and sell are as different to play as the various modes.

And the player base already seems split as far as it is going to be. In reality, if a split board occurred, I expect Jugglers will play no sell and sell and non jugglers will play sell and no sell. It might actually unify the player base more since although they'll still play different, they'll both feel less slighted.

salmusco
07-19-2010, 04:32 PM
Yes I would not like to split the boards however its a much better solution then punishing a group of legit.players .Just because people who never juggled who have no real experience or reference for real knowlege on the subject. Have a false opion that it must be cheap. I know you have experience but the majority does not. They fear what they dont understand.

salmusco
07-19-2010, 04:40 PM
Good morning my friend! I should like to invite you to take just a few mins away from the game and give us your response and thoughts on this matter.We could all benifit from your vast experience knowlege on the suject. Also the HP. team is paying close attention to this forum and the future of your gaming experience in DG2 my depend on our speaking up for what is right. PS. good luck beating my Standing Order story Challenge score. I mean the one i just put up.

hiclass
07-19-2010, 11:33 PM
The leaderboards are already split off of the main mode for story challenge, 20k, grinder, 15 tower etc, which makes a lot of sense because the modes are different. I don't see how a no sell split is really different from a mode split, and the split seems equally rational since no sell and sell are as different to play as the various modes.

And the player base already seems split as far as it is going to be. In reality, if a split board occurred, I expect Jugglers will play no sell and sell and non jugglers will play sell and no sell. It might actually unify the player base more since although they'll still play different, they'll both feel less slighted.

Modes, particularly those that are optional (one can choose to skip) don't split player into groups. It only allow one to skip a particular type of gameplay. If there are N levels in DG, adding a "No sell" modes adds only N additional game to play.

But splitting leaderboard is totally a different story. It doubles the number of times one need to play in total for certain achievements (that required player to get gold in every modes at all levels). If there are N levels in DG and let say average 5 modes per level, then it adds Nx5 games to play... which means it is 5 times compare to just adding it as additional mode.

The most important thing, I feel your argument is not appropriate because:
If the dveloper splits leaderboard for "No sell" condition then they should do the same to "Green Tower Only" condition too.
They both serves to limit player from doing something to the tower they build.
Think about it, all other modes play with the initial resource, activating interest count, total waves of aliens or number of cores. But the above two, play with restricting what you can do with the towers.
So you are treating them too great, they both don't deserve a split leaderboard... otherwise we will need to have four leaderbords instead of one:
1. The original leaderboard
2. The "No sell" leaderboard
3. The "Green towers only" leaderboard
4. The "No sell" + "Greeb towers only" leaderboard

My dear: Takista, Salmusco and the rest of the top players, you all can play until age 90 to complete (hopefully with rank#1) in all modes at all level for all the 4 leaderboards... hahaha!

TBird
07-20-2010, 02:19 AM
I really think we need to get some numbers straight here:

How many people on the leaderboards do you think actually juggle ? If you check the leaderboard scores I am pretty sure you will find out that outside of the top 3% (based on number of towers) nobody juggles.

That means 97% of the playerbase couldn't care less if juggling is nerfed or even removed. Now the devs come up with the gracious idea of splitting leaderboards (thereby leaving the juggling mechanism intact), yet still there is complaining.

You should really get the idea out of your head that there are two equal sized groups that the game must be balanced around.

hiclass
07-20-2010, 07:15 AM
I really think we need to get some numbers straight here:

How many people on the leaderboards do you think actually juggle ?

So, now you want majority to bully minority?
Is this your last resort?


If you check the leaderboard scores I am pretty sure you will find out that outside of the top 3% (based on number of towers) nobody juggles.

"Many don't juggle" is not equivalent to "Many don't want to juggle"
I recalled it took me quite a while (since I play the very first level in DG) before I realize that I can use this tactic. The samething could be applied to other DG players. They simply don't have the inspiarion to start juggling.
Further more your 3% is based on your guess. Even if you juggle, I don't think you can be in top 10 of any DG level. You need to at least prove it to all jugglers here in this thread, when you say juggling is cheap or could mean exploit, just show us that is true. Btw, how are you so sure those outside the 3% never juggle? What if they did, but can'nt do it well?


That means 97% of the playerbase couldn't care less if juggling is nerfed or even removed. Now the devs come up with the gracious idea of splitting leaderboards (thereby leaving the juggling mechanism intact), yet still there is complaining.

That isn't a complain.
I am just pointing out it is impractical and not without side effects.
Convince me, why not a new "No sell" mode, why must it be a split leaderboard?

TBird
07-20-2010, 11:32 AM
So, now you want majority to bully minority?
Is this your last resort?


I am glad that now at least you admit you are the minority.
:cool:

Further more your 3% is based on your guess.

Oh is it ? Why don't you check the leaderboards yourself and see what the "number of towers used"-category looks like ? Outside of the top 50 you see a sudden decline of the number of towers used (and it stays that low, with an exception ~every 25 entries).


Convince me, why not a new "No sell" mode, why must it be a split leaderboard?

Because if we have one "no tower sell"-mode, I still need to compete against jugglers on the leaderboards in 6 other modes.

According to your logic, I could very well suggest to prohibit selling on all modes but introduce one new "tower sell mode" per map for jugglers. Doesn't sound really appealing, does it ? :p

fortunz
07-20-2010, 11:55 AM
Modes, particularly those that are optional (one can choose to skip) don't split player into groups. It only allow one to skip a particular type of gameplay.

No sell leaderboards allow one to skip a particular type of gameplay: juggling. I could play grinder all day and avoid the campaign and other challenge modes, and my grinder scores are separate from your story challenge scores. It's the same thing to me.

If there are N levels in DG, adding a "No sell" modes adds only N additional game to play.

But splitting leaderboard is totally a different story. It doubles the number of times one need to play in total for certain achievements (that required player to get gold in every modes at all levels). If there are N levels in DG and let say average 5 modes per level, then it adds Nx5 games to play... which means it is 5 times compare to just adding it as additional mode.


Medals and leaderboards aren't the same thing. There's no need to play twice as many times to get achievements even if there are no sell leaderboards.

And adding 5x as much gameplay is a good thing when the game is good. Especially since it wouldn't need to be required for the achievements.

Also, most arguments for adding one mode are arguments to add one juggle mode and make the rest of the game no juggle, not vice versa. And jugglers are in the minority, so I doubt they'd pigeon hole non-jugglers when they could pigeon hole jugglers.

hiclass
07-20-2010, 12:54 PM
I am glad that now at least you admit you are the minority.
:cool:

No one can admit anything by asking 2 questions in a row.
It is you the one assume non-jugglers are the majority, not me.



Oh is it ? Why don't you check the leaderboards yourself

I don't need to. But I can esaily prove what you claim has no solid basic, see below.


and see what the "number of towers used"-category looks like ? Outside of the top 50 you see a sudden decline of the number of towers used (and it stays that low, with an exception ~every 25 entries).

You forget about one crucial fact, let me quote an exmaple why the Towers column on the leaderboard does not support your theory.

Let say one day, someone like you (who I know has fear in juggling and for the rest of your life won't juggle well) really try to juggle and it end up that, for the same level of the game, your juggling result is worse than the non-juggling's, now the leaderboard will record your rank say no.300 as 25 towers (which is a result of non-juggling), so then you claim you have never juggle. But you did indeed, it is just that you beat yourself by non-juggling because juggling is simply too difficult for you.

i.e. When the leaderboard records a drop of no. of towers after your so called 3%, it simply proves one thing:
The jugglers are always better in result than non-jugglers

and ...

It can't prove the non-jugglers have never tried to juggle...eheheh!

salmusco
07-20-2010, 12:57 PM
Are you saying outside of the top 50 on leaderboards no one is juggling? Well just goes to show its a strat. used by elite players not every has the will, patience,and skill to pull it off correctly. Its far from easier. It is harder it takes much skill and practice. Its not cheap.Just becuase 97% of the DG players are ordinary does mean the extraordinary should have to be punished does it?:confused: You guys being just want to bring us to your level. Because you are sore losers.

Ganjafear
07-20-2010, 01:23 PM
Are you saying outside of the top 50 on leaderboards no one is juggling? Well just goes to show its a strat. used by elite players not every has the will, patience,and skill to pull it off correctly. Its far from easier. It is harder it takes much skill and practice. Its not cheap.Just becuase 97% of the DG players are ordinary does mean the extraordinary should have to be punished does it?:confused: You guys being just want to bring us to your level. Because you are sore losers.

I just juggled for about 40 minutes and now I am number three on the level I played, so can you stop claiming juggling is insanely hard and requires expertise and insane skill? It ONLY requires a basic understanding of the path of the mobs and the patience to use trial and error represented by pressing the "back" button every time something does not go as planned.

So you think you are an elite player because you are high on the scoreboards? No dude, the truth is that;

a) You are ranked high because juggling gives an advantage on interest, it allows you to spend less money on towers and because interest grows like a snowball rolling downhill you end up with a higher score.

b) You have the time/will to play more than everybody else which manifests itself on the boards obviously. It is just a guess, but are you older than 16? It would explain the excess of time and somewhat childish arguments you put forward, not to forget the amount of smilies you use in every post.

I am not trying to harass you in any way, it is just damaging for forums and games when certain people think they are demi-gods because of "alternative use of game mechanics".

Yeah I could easily juggle if I wanted to, but it is very boring and requires more time per game which I am not willing to spend. I play games like this because I can play them while drinking coffee/talking to my girlfriend/yelling at my cat and still do well enough for the time I invest.

hiclass
07-20-2010, 01:41 PM
I just juggled for about 40 minutes and now I am number three on the level I played, so can you stop claiming juggling is insanely hard and requires expertise and insane skill?
...
Yeah I could easily juggle if I wanted to, but it is very boring and requires more time per game which I am not willing to spend. I play games like this because I can play them while drinking coffee/talking to my girlfriend/yelling at my cat and still do well enough for the time I invest.

I think salmusco won't be intersted in knowning how many minutes you have juggled. What he is more intersted in knowing is what you won't be able to prove:

How many time have you tried that level by juggling before you end up in the 3rd place?

I noticed that you have started your quest of anti-juggling since days ago, what take you so many day to come up with a 3rd place by juggling?

You should have proven by this way long, long ago if it is really as easy as you have claimed to juggle to 3rd place... hehehe...

Ganjafear
07-20-2010, 01:48 PM
I think salmusco won't be intersted in knowning how many minutes you have juggled. What he is more intersted in knowing is what you won't be able to prove:

How many time have you tried that level by juggling before you end up in the 3rd place?

I noticed that you have started your quest of anti-juggling since days ago, what take you so many day to come up with a 3rd place by juggling?

You should have proven by this way long, long ago if it is really as easy as you have claimed to juggle to 3rd place... hehehe...

It was the first time I played it by juggling, before that I never intended because of before mentioned reasons.

I do not really need to prove anything, it is your choice whether you believe it or not, it makes no difference to me.

salmusco
07-20-2010, 02:25 PM
I am 34 yeas old. What map are you number 3 in ?. Anyway i do just fine in non juggle maps. The last wed challenge map (nonjuggling i am rank #2 currently)No I dont think im a god! Yes I do think i am an elite player. I will not falsely say you are not an elite player because you are. Does not surpise me you did so well. Thats the point you dont give credit when it is due. I may not use words like cheers as you do.Just a real guy not an elitist snob! By the way your first time juggling your full of it! No smiles here am I now as sophisticated as you sir.

Destructo-Bot
07-20-2010, 02:25 PM
Alright I'm weighing in again. Juggling is NOT HARD. Here is what you do:


You load up practice/20K, and eye out how you can best divert aliens around and also path back through the entire maze with a one tower switch.
Lay your towers out, typically optimizing around Concs and Temps before the cores. S & U paths are preferable. Take advantage of any natural bends the map has.
Run the game with no upgrades, note where you lose control or the aliens reach the cores.
Return to last checkpoint and either redesign or upgrade as needed.
Repeat until you know the bare minimums to squeak by. Keeping a log is optional.


Not hard, just trial and error and tedium. You will arrive at an ideal setup after a few iterations. This is what I was going to post in my Center of Power Practice Top 3 thread. After one go with juggling that map; Top 3. And there are half a dozen ways to improve what I did.

hiclass
07-20-2010, 02:26 PM
I do not really need to prove anything, it is your choice whether you believe it or not, it makes no difference to me.
Not true. It makes a difference.
It is really a matter for you to prove it to all other jugglers because you have used it as a mean to comment on the easiness/cheap in juggling. I suggest you put it on you-tube to show us how easy it was.

In fact what I am more interested in knowing is, from now on, will you be able to resist juggling, after you have got a 3rd place by juggling... Please be reminded that, I will laugh like hell if I see any of your further top ranking result which is done by juggling...

fortunz
07-20-2010, 02:33 PM
Alright I'm weighing in again. Juggling is NOT HARD. Here is what you do:


You load up practice/20K, and eye out how you can best divert aliens around and also path back through the entire maze with a one tower switch.
Lay your towers out, typically optimizing around Concs and Temps before the cores. S & U paths are preferable. Take advantage of any natural bends the map has.
Run the game with no upgrades, note where you lose control or the aliens reach the cores.
Return to last checkpoint and either redesign or upgrade as needed.
Repeat until you know the bare minimums to squeak by. Keeping a log is optional.


Not hard, just trial and error and tedium. You will arrive at an ideal setup after a few iterations.

Backspace is cheap. And the same level of tedium can be arrived at without juggling, albeit spending more dollars. But spending more doesn't make it harder/more challenging/less cheap.

Destructo-Bot
07-20-2010, 02:35 PM
Make sure you are responding to my arguments and not someone else. I consider abusing the AI on a never ending loop cheap. I don't mind some juggling, but when it comes down to the aliens never exiting I think it breaks immersion and reason.

TBird
07-20-2010, 02:53 PM
Are you saying outside of the top 50 on leaderboards no one is juggling? Well just goes to show its a strat. used by elite players not every has the will, patience,and skill to pull it off correctly. Its far from easier. It is harder it takes much skill and practice. Its not cheap.Just becuase 97% of the DG players are ordinary does mean the extraordinary should have to be punished does it?:confused: You guys being just want to bring us to your level. Because you are sore losers.

Holy cow, would you please stop with that "we are so pro and you are all noobs" nonsense ? It's becoming really hard to take you seriously.

:rolleyes:

Even though you are a tiny minority, the general consensus on this board (even though many people don't like juggling) has been "live and let live". Additionally, we have tried to come up with ways to level the playing field between jugglers and non jugglers without hindering their way of playing.
The devs suggested the compromise of splitted leaderboards.

But hey, you are still complaining like you are 90% of the playerbase and oppose the split leaderboards with very strange arguments. I think it's safe to assume you don't want the split leaderboards because you are not number #1 by a huge margin everywhere anymore.

But who cares, instead of accepting that there are different playstyles that need to be balanced or separated result-wise, you keep on insisting that only your way is the correct one and everybody should convert to your view of things (boy, where have I seen that one before...).
People that don't see things your way are either lazy, or lack skill and dedication and are losers all around. :eek:

And you claim you are concerned about the unity of the playerbase...

:rolleyes:

salmusco
07-20-2010, 03:17 PM
Cheers! Listen all we are having here is a misunderstanding.Yes if you want split leaders i will grant you that. Even though i dont agree there should be any.You must understand that some of you call juggling cheap that means our scores are cheap this is insulting. As a Defense mechinism we probably are over stating things alittle. But as Ganja said i am a little boy i say this you started it.

fortunz
07-20-2010, 03:18 PM
Make sure you are responding to my arguments and not someone else. I consider abusing the AI on a never ending loop cheap. I don't mind some juggling, but when it comes down to the aliens never exiting I think it breaks immersion and reason.

The specific argument I replied to was that juggling isn't hard. My point was that your step-by-step description merely demonstrated that using backspace wasn't hard. Even an 'abusive' juggler need not use backspace. Even everyone else has that same cheap mech to lean back on to create trial and error tedium (which is a break in immersion and reason).

In this disagreement, what either of us thinks about juggling isn't really relevant.

Alright I'm weighing in again. Defense Grid is NOT HARD. Here is what you do:


You load up practice/20K, and eye out how you can best divert aliens to the longest possible path
Lay your towers out, typically optimizing around Concs and Temps before the cores. S & U paths are preferable. Take advantage of any natural bends the map has.
Run the game with no upgrades, note where you lose control or the aliens reach the cores.
Return to last checkpoint and either redesign or upgrade as needed.
Repeat until you know the bare minimums to squeak by. Keeping a log is optional.


Not hard, just trial and error and tedium. You will arrive at an ideal setup after a few iterations.

You guys being just want to bring us to your level. Because you are sore losers.

It's one thing to call juggling an advanced tactic. It's even still one thing to suggest that some attack juggling merely because they don't understand it. However, calling people sore losers is not cool. Please keep the conversation about juggling, not about non-jugglers.