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View Full Version : The problem with parasites: Not overpowered, but frustrating


HvC_Terr
07-21-2010, 08:56 PM
I'd like to suggest that the problem most people have with Parasites isn't that they are "too powerful", but that they are frustrating to the player, because feel like you ought to be able to do something--even punching your teammate in the face--but the game won't let you.

The solution isn't to nerf Parasites or make them less deadly on average, but instead to give every player (regardless of loadout) something they can do--however small--to try to help an infected teammate. (The infected person is frustrated, but at least we've contained the frustration a bit!)

Looking at the problem in this light may help highlight better solutions.

Derpster
07-21-2010, 08:57 PM
You'd think that with a totally obvious parasite sitting on top of your buddy's head, you should be able to pull it off and curb stomp it.

larrle
07-21-2010, 08:57 PM
hey bud electric armor cures infest

Crouton
07-21-2010, 08:59 PM
hey bud electric armor cures infest

And takes up the room of something actually useful.. Even using the Electric Armor, while it gets the parasite off, you can still take damage.. I found it to be kind of a waste of time.

Woden
07-21-2010, 09:00 PM
While I see where you're coming from, and your observation is probably correct, the fact remains that parasites are the only credible threat in the easy difficulties and the biggest threat in insane.

Nerfing them would remove much of what difficulty there is in this game, which would be highly unsatisfying to the players in the end.

left4fortress
07-21-2010, 09:01 PM
I think it just needs to be faster to remove with maybe a little of what the OP suggested. They are annoying.

Crouton
07-21-2010, 09:01 PM
While I see where you're coming from, and your observation is probably correct, the fact remains that parasites are the only credible threat in the easy difficulties and the biggest threat in insane.

Nerfing them would remove much of what difficulty there is in this game, which would be highly unsatisfying to the players in the end.

I don't mind a heavy threat being present in the game.. I just think Parasites shouldn't be it.... Unless Parasites called Swarms when they infested someone!! Yes.. how delectably evil....

Derpster
07-21-2010, 09:04 PM
I recommend making the parasites less harmful, but introduce a new Swarm that's all ninja-like, can sneak around invisible, and does massive damage bursts when he actually ambushes the players, whilst being incredibly weak, should he be found, and probably gunned to death.

left4fortress
07-21-2010, 09:06 PM
I recommend making the parasites less harmful, but introduce a new Swarm that's all ninja-like, can sneak around invisible, and does massive damage bursts when he actually ambushes the players, whilst being incredibly weak, should he be found, and probably gunned to death.

Like unable to be seen when behind walls and can crawl in ceilings? I like it. Would add a new feel without the game becoming too annoying.

Ethan_Macmanus
07-21-2010, 09:06 PM
I don't mind a heavy threat being present in the game.. I just think Parasites shouldn't be it.... Unless Parasites called Swarms when they infested someone!! Yes.. how delectably evil....

I say those shielders should always come with reinforcements of drones and Rangers.

Pretty irresponsible for a hive of alien insects to have its slowest units all by itself.

infernox3470
07-21-2010, 09:08 PM
It's fine as it is.

You can ALWAYS kill the parasites before they even get near you.

Derpster
07-21-2010, 09:09 PM
Like unable to be seen when behind walls and can crawl in ceilings? I like it. Would add a new feel without the game becoming too annoying.

On top of adding in a tension factor, since he would be damn impossible to track, as he moves too fast for the tech's radar to keep up. I also recommend his invisibility giving a shimmer effect, giving some sort of use for flashlights, as it would reflect off of his carapace and immediately give him away.

x_elx
07-21-2010, 09:09 PM
"Hey, something's on your face, lemme kick it":p

Crouton
07-21-2010, 09:09 PM
I say those shielders should always come with reinforcements of drones and Rangers.

Pretty irresponsible for a hive of alien insects to have its slowest units all by itself.

I think a Drone/Acidspitting♥♥♥♥♥♥drone swarm should come. It IS a hive, and they should respond to threats to their eggs. Lowering the INDIVIDUAL difficulty of the Parasite, and raising the difficulty of the overall swarm.

It is however ironic that people mention rambos being killed by a rambo bug.. "RAMBOS ARE BAG! RAMBOS PARASITES ARE GOOD! LEARN LOGIC!"... just a bit lulzy.. I would just like to see more swarm in alien swarm.

Ethan_Macmanus
07-21-2010, 09:10 PM
On top of adding in a tension factor, since he would be damn impossible to track, as he moves too fast for the tech's radar to keep up. I also recommend his invisibility giving a shimmer effect, giving some sort of use for flashlights, as it would reflect off of his carapace and immediately give him away.

already got a nickname for that one

The Nincaeda

left4fortress
07-21-2010, 09:10 PM
It's fine as it is.

You can ALWAYS kill the parasites before they even get near you.

Where is the "BAN FOR ARROGANCE" Button? I don't see it.

Woden
07-21-2010, 09:12 PM
Where is the "BAN FOR ARROGANCE" Button? I don't see it.

Valve disabled it after the entire userbase of the forum was banned within a day of the feature being added.

Snappyguy
07-21-2010, 09:14 PM
What about a bug spray type off hand. Someone [not limited to the medic] could carry some or one.

Someone can help with the loss of a life saving freeze bomb or health pack.

Hiclic
07-21-2010, 09:25 PM
Parasites are fully healable, even in Insane. They are static spawns in set numbers--you will never be surprised by them after a play through. Flamers make them unable to latch on or hatch. They are vocally announced by every character when in your proximity. You can even use an extra slot with lengthy duration static armor as a last ditch.

Trying to put in rabid invisible swarm calling ninjas is not particularly constructive criticism. If you want to, well go ahead. The source code and developers tools are yours. Parasites are toned down in this game from what they used to be. Be happy.

If you want to see more "swarm" in alien swarm. Play on Insane. It steps up the spawn a wee bit.

left4fortress
07-21-2010, 09:29 PM
Parasites are fully healable, even in Insane. They are static spawns in set numbers--you will never be surprised by them after a play through. Flamers make them unable to latch on or hatch. They are vocally announced by every character when in your proximity. You can even use an extra slot with lengthy duration static armor as a last ditch.

Trying to put in rabid invisible swarm calling ninjas is not particularly constructive criticism. If you want to, well go ahead. The source code and developers tools are yours. Parasites are toned down in this game from what they used to be. Be happy.

If you want to see more "swarm" in alien swarm. Play on Insane. It steps up the spawn a wee bit.

Now where is the "Smack for not getting the point" Button?
The point was, parasites are very annoying WHEN THEY DO get you. Also, you shouldn't have to use your slot to get rid of them.

Boikinov
07-21-2010, 09:35 PM
My suggestion is
1: The Parasite hugs your face and do massive damage over time
2: The Parasite injects your body with Parasite spawn, do little damage over time, and if you are killed, the spawn hatch

Everyone can knock the Parasite off your teammate. Also you can knock it off yourself with shock armor.
But you must kill the spawn with medic, or it still will eat you up from inside.

So if you are alone, you're screwed, the facehugger will kill you quickly
If there are two of you but no medic near, your teammate can buy you some time by kill the hugger, so with only the damage from inside you won't die so quickly. Run for medic before the spawn slowly kill you

The Consultant
07-21-2010, 09:38 PM
You should have an option to help pull parasites off your teammate by maybe holding the use button or something if near by them. Kinda like helping your bros up when they're on the ground in L4D.

ZincAzN
07-21-2010, 09:41 PM
They should let tesla coils and flamethrowers take off the parasites. Not just spam heal.

Crinkz
07-21-2010, 09:44 PM
My suggestion is
1: The Parasite hugs your face and do massive damage over time
2: The Parasite injects your body with Parasite spawn, do little damage over time, and if you are killed, the spawn hatch

Everyone can knock the Parasite off your teammate. Also you can knock it off yourself with shock armor.
But you must kill the spawn with medic, or it still will eat you up from inside.

So if you are alone, you're screwed, the facehugger will kill you quickly
If there are two of you but no medic near, your teammate can buy you some time by kill the hugger, so with only the damage from inside you won't die so quickly. Run for medic before the spawn slowly kill you

I really like this idea.

Hiclic
07-21-2010, 09:44 PM
Now where is the "Smack for not getting the point" Button?
The point was, parasites are very annoying WHEN THEY DO get you. Also, you shouldn't have to use your slot to get rid of them.

Okay, so you failed being prepared, you forgot they were there even though they didn't move from last time, the game shouted "Look out, Parasites!" but you didn't listen, you failed shooting them and they landed on your face. Now you're annoyed. I'm deeply sorry for your frustration, but you could have done something about it. I'm sure everyone gets annoyed when they fail repeatedly, but the solution is to prevent failure the next time; not lessen the effects of failure.

Velocitas
07-21-2010, 09:45 PM
Where is the "BAN FOR ARROGANCE" Button? I don't see it.
He's right, though.

When I get infested, I don't think "WOW, THAT IS SO CHEAP" ..I think "Wow, I screwed up."

Also: why do people act like electro armor is only useful for parasites? I don't use it very often, but if you or someone else is getting cornered, it can also deliver an instant stun to groups of swarm.

Derpster
07-21-2010, 09:46 PM
Trying to put in rabid invisible swarm calling ninjas is not particularly constructive criticism. If you want to, well go ahead. The source code and developers tools are yours. Parasites are toned down in this game from what they used to be. Be happy
I appreciate the sentiment, but I'm more of an ideas guy, not really good at putting them together, hence why I sort of threw it out there.

He's right, though.

When I get infested, I don't think "WOW, THAT IS SO CHEAP" ..I think "Wow, I screwed up."
Usually, I think "Aw, crap, here we go again."

Crouton
07-21-2010, 09:51 PM
They should let tesla coils and flamethrowers take off the parasites. Not just spam heal.

Tesla Guns do remove parasites... as I recall.. At least my tech who zaps them off my face always says so.

Snipers ruin TF
07-21-2010, 10:08 PM
Tesla Guns do remove parasites... as I recall.. At least my tech who zaps them off my face always says so.

It's purely visual, the parasite will still kill the person and even respawn on their death.

Crouton
07-21-2010, 10:09 PM
It's purely visual, the parasite will still kill the person and even respawn on their death.

Well there is the facehugger, and the aftermath of him skull♥♥♥♥ing you. it seems to do less damage over time, but it iwll still kill you. Time is everything though.

HvC_Terr
07-21-2010, 10:11 PM
If it were a "virus-injecting bug" instead of a "latch to your face" bug, you'd see less complaining, even if the overall effect was exactly the same.

The problem is the player experience is bad, because you're breaking player immersion by showing them something (bug on your head) and then telling them they can't do the "obvious" thing (smashing it with a gauntleted fist.)

jmplayer
07-21-2010, 10:13 PM
I read this and I think parasites should stay.

Disodium
07-21-2010, 10:14 PM
So I can see mention of three things to remove parasites mentioned here..
1. Healing
2. Electro Armor
3. Tesla Guns(I did not know this and will try it sometime)

What more do you want?

Healing has the trade off of using health/medic gun
Electro Armor has the trade off of using up a utility slot
And the Tesla guns more then likely means you are not able to remove it from your self so are reliant on a medic to remove it.

They are not impossible to defend against, and are not some godly force!
It is not hard to learn where they commonly spawn and use caution around those areas.

Sure they are frustrating when you 'stumble around into one' but honestly if that's the reason to want to nerf them you need to work a little harder in analysing what you or your team did wrong because like death parasite's are a punishment for lack of coordination, load-out or plain straight recklessness.

From what I have witnessed reckless teams have more issues dealing with this threat then those who do use caution and pay attention to where they commonly spawn.

There is plenty of methods to remove them and defend against them and in my opinion we do not need another method to remove them when there is plenty of defence now.

Tablecloth
07-21-2010, 10:23 PM
I agree. I main medic, and most of the time, people die to parasites because I don't realize they are infested. I suggest that when someone gets infested, it immediately has a popup on screen that tells everyone. It would make the medic's job a lot easier.

SFJake
07-21-2010, 10:24 PM
I only play pugs, and in pugs I'm completely sick of parasites.

They're just lame, plain and simple. There should be alternatives. A way to remove them but you stay "infested", only losing minimal health over time (instead of the massive amount you lose if you just let him live) was a good idea.

gamerslayer965
07-21-2010, 10:25 PM
hey bud electric armor cures infest

And what if the player doesn't have it unlocked yet?...

QMAN_PL
07-21-2010, 10:25 PM
And takes up the room of something actually useful.. Even using the Electric Armor, while it gets the parasite off, you can still take damage.. I found it to be kind of a waste of time.

Crout when you see it parasite just you should use electric armor before paraside jump on you, activated electric armor work for next 15 sec, and every mob what try hit you, is get it stuned.

gamerslayer965
07-21-2010, 10:26 PM
I agree. I main medic, and most of the time, people die to parasites because I don't realize they are infested. I suggest that when someone gets infested, it immediately has a popup on screen that tells everyone. It would make the medic's job a lot easier.

I think it should show a arrow or highlight the character to show that they are infested...Kind of like L4D2.

tyroney
07-21-2010, 10:31 PM
And what if the player doesn't have it unlocked yet?...

Hang back. Stick near your team. Carry a tesla rifle and keep it activated and aimed at possible hiding places. Watch the minimap. Stick near northern walls so you can see everything approaching you.

I just played through hard as a (slow moving, slower spinning up) heavy weapons and I didn't get parasites a single time. The guy who was running all over trying to tell us what to do claiming shock armor was REQUIRED got jumped at least 3 times. (he was the only one, too.) If someone has an issue with parasites, they need to adjust what they're doing.

QMAN_PL
07-21-2010, 10:33 PM
Parasites wasnt much problem. The main problem is player experience, especialy cry "heroes" who leave they team and try do all objectives alone. This co-game dudes. Just dont be a hero, you should work with whole team, alone you will be easy killed even on normal difficult by mass mobs :P .

If you afraid parasides you should take flamer or tesla cannon, and especially electric armor.

Paraside while burn, cant jump on you head. Tesla have auto aim killing them or just group parasides by 1 shot... and if you see it parasides on head your team mate, you should hit him by using tesla!! that killing paraside and take them down from head (and our mate will be much more easly to heal)

Most of player as i see it taking electric armor, but they never used it that, remember guys, electric armor need it activate manually!! this is not passive armor, activate electric armor coz you stune any attacked mob for next 10-15 sec (i not remember how long that work). If you have 100% hp, only by using electric armor you can kill more then 30 swarm mobs(that awesome your armor killing swarms! :P).


Whatever you not try to do, just dont be a hero, just co-opperate with team, and dont be to hurry, and you will be ok :P

Paraside rulez <3 XD

QMAN_PL
07-21-2010, 10:34 PM
I think it should show a arrow or highlight the character to show that they are infested...Kind of like L4D2.

On below is icon with one is infected. But at fact we dont see it that when we concetrated on fight.

ELITEeNergizer
07-21-2010, 10:35 PM
Parasite don't bother me at all, but that's coming from a play that plays insane mode.

Crouton
07-21-2010, 10:38 PM
Parasite don't bother me at all, but that's coming from a play that plays insane mode.

They bother me because of HOW they kill, not THAT they kill.

being killed BECAUSE of a parasite is fine with me, being killed BY a parasite is frustrating.. I have a topic about basically making the infected blind and dumb until cured, lowering damage, and calling a swarm.

So only 2 people can really fight off the swarm while the guy gets cured.

Fundayz
07-21-2010, 10:40 PM
Parasites would only be unfair if their spawn points changed. As it is right now, the only reason why you would get infested is because you either haven't played through all the missions yet or are not paying attention. Parasites are not hard to kill or avoid. In fact, I would argue that losing to a parasite is not dieing to them but getting infested in the first place; you shouldn't be relying on your medic to save you.

Protip: let the flamethrowers lead the way near parasites.

QMAN_PL
07-21-2010, 10:40 PM
They bother me because of HOW they kill, not THAT they kill.

being killed BECAUSE of a parasite is fine with me, being killed BY a parasite is frustrating.. I have a topic about basically making the infected blind and dumb until cured, lowering damage, and calling a swarm.

So only 2 people can really fight off the swarm while the guy gets cured.

Ouu on that point i agreed.
Cut infection dmg by half, and disable fight abilitys ;) or just "blind" infected as you say XD

Bindal
07-21-2010, 10:44 PM
Being able to kill the Parasite on the face of the teammate doesn't sound OP to me - after all, it won't cure the infestation, but it could slow it down by maybe 20%. THAT still requires a medic.

xat
07-21-2010, 10:53 PM
everyone can do something: kill them before them gets close enough to become a threat. they're not exactly fast nor clever.

they're meant to be game enders; if you're having difficulty dealing with them, maybe a lower difficulty is in order?

Ethan_Macmanus
07-21-2010, 10:53 PM
Usually, I think "Aw, crap, here we go again."

and theorists suggest if we knew why the noob thought that, we would know a lot more about the universe then we do right now

Hello ground! *whump*

Hiclic
07-21-2010, 11:12 PM
I agree. I main medic, and most of the time, people die to parasites because I don't realize they are infested. I suggest that when someone gets infested, it immediately has a popup on screen that tells everyone. It would make the medic's job a lot easier.

They have the option of alerting you I believe, but generally when you're infested you have other things on your mind. You hit the player number and it does a medic call specifically to that person. Maybe a better hotkey for medic calling is in order.

As for the predictability of Parasites, they're extremely predictable. The only time you need to relearn where they can appear is in Insane mode, which has much more aliens and introduces the species much earlier.

Derpster
07-21-2010, 11:26 PM
and theorists suggest if we knew why the noob thought that, we would know a lot more about the universe then we do right now

Hello ground! *whump*
Lol. I'm pretty good with them now (I flame everything), but usually, there's the once-in-a-blue-moon chance that they do get on you. Reminds me of my noob days. Which were like, 2 days ago.

They have the option of alerting you I believe, but generally when you're infested you have other things on your mind. You hit the player number and it does a medic call specifically to that person. Maybe a better hotkey for medic calling is in order.

As for the predictability of Parasites, they're extremely predictable. The only time you need to relearn where they can appear is in Insane mode, which has much more aliens and introduces the species much earlier.
On top of that, normally, characters actually shout out when they spot a parasite. But I think the biggest fault of that is the call-out is usually lost in a sound wave of gunfire, so a visual indicator on top of audio would be nice, too. Usually when I play medic, I rarely notice the medic indicator, but I do notice their red-green bar once the damage starts kicking in.

thrash242
07-21-2010, 11:31 PM
Since when do people expect games to be free of frustration?

HvC_Terr
07-21-2010, 11:55 PM
I, for one, don't have a clue what you can do about a parasite. I hear you could burn or electrocute one, but where the hell is that written down!?

How is even the best-intentioned manual-reading newbie supposed to find this stuff out before they die to it a few times?

Ethan_Macmanus
07-21-2010, 11:57 PM
I, for one, don't have a clue what you can do about a parasite. I hear you could burn or electrocute one, but where the hell is that written down!?

How is even the best-intentioned manual-reading newbie supposed to find this stuff out before they die to it a few times?

they die to it a few times, and find a parasite that got burned or shocked off someone

now they know.

Sifer2
07-22-2010, 12:04 AM
I, for one, don't have a clue what you can do about a parasite. I hear you could burn or electrocute one, but where the hell is that written down!?

How is even the best-intentioned manual-reading newbie supposed to find this stuff out before they die to it a few times?


I guess you missed the big hint tips the game tells you then? The one that says the ONLY cure for Parasites is Healing? An the electric armor also says "cures infestation" if you have it.

Flashsight
07-22-2010, 12:05 AM
You'd think that with a totally obvious parasite sitting on top of your buddy's head, you should be able to pull it off and curb stomp it.

You obviously didn't watched aliens

Derpster
07-22-2010, 12:13 AM
You obviously didn't watched aliens

Yes, I did. These guys aren't Colonial Marines. They don't wear futuristic flak jackets and advanced K-pots. They wear closed helmets with seal-tight exosuits. Makes a huge-♥♥♥ difference when you got something that wants grab your face and make babies from it.

dizzzave
07-22-2010, 12:21 AM
While I see where you're coming from, and your observation is probably correct, the fact remains that parasites are the only credible threat in the easy difficulties and the biggest threat in insane.

Nerfing them would remove much of what difficulty there is in this game, which would be highly unsatisfying to the players in the end.

Bull♥♥♥♥. The game needs difficulty and challenge to come from all species of swarm and not just 1. If the only thing thats difficult is parasites, then they aren't doing a good job with the other aliens.

Diebythe
07-22-2010, 12:30 AM
If it were a "virus-injecting bug" instead of a "latch to your face" bug, you'd see less complaining, even if the overall effect was exactly the same.

The problem is the player experience is bad, because you're breaking player immersion by showing them something (bug on your head) and then telling them they can't do the "obvious" thing (smashing it with a gauntleted fist.)Even worse is the fact that there's an achievement called "Parasite Puncher" for killing a parasite with melee, further enhancing the notion.

But it gets really fun when you combine them with lag compensation. There's nothing like punching a parasite in the middle of your reload but still getting infected, dying, and the stats screen showing that you got the "Parasite Puncher" achievement. Yippee. Even better is when you're using the Tesla gun and are still hit because all leaping creatures now teleport instead.

Still wouldn't want to nerf the little critters, but they definitely make me groan when I'm infected by one I can't see due to the map perspective instead of the "OH GOD!" feeling when I'm killed by any other creature in the game.

mezoforte1509
07-22-2010, 12:34 AM
And takes up the room of something actually useful.. Even using the Electric Armor, while it gets the parasite off, you can still take damage.. I found it to be kind of a waste of time.
It's also unreliable on insane because if you are below 50% you will die anyways. Parasites aren't as big a problem as people think, as long as you have someone who knows what they're doing with a flamethrower you shouldn't be infested very often.

the_legion
07-22-2010, 12:35 AM
No, don't do it! It's these people's stupid "rush and kill" play style why they end up with parasites on their heads, instead of waiting for someone with the flamethrower to clear the area first.

I'm sure 90% (yes, pulling stats out of ♥♥♥) of all parasite deaths are because someone rushed in front.

If you go slower through a map, especially when playing hard or insane, you can avoid most nasty ambushes.

If Valve nerfed the parasite the game would loose its appeal! If anything we need more mechanics that make the marine's lives thougher, such as the parasite.

Valve shouldn't nerf the parasite but instead buff the medigun! Let it recharge slowly and have it remove parasites a bit faster than med packs! It would be balanced because:

med packs = you can heal multiple players at once, so if there is more than one infection you can deal with it that way
medi gun = just one patient at a time but faster healing of the infection + recharge.

I don't think players should be able to knock parasites off of a player because I suppose them parasites pierce you with their barbs in the head so if you "pull them out" you'll probably get hurt even more (looking form a logical perspective).

Guys, this isn't TF2 where you get free random crits, you just have to practice the game and get better at it. Plus the game hasn't been here for a week and I'm sure sooner or later every mediocre players will adapt and be able to shoot and remove parasites quickly. Right now the techniques have to be developed.

Prepucius
07-22-2010, 01:35 AM
Since when do people expect games to be free of frustration?

Welcome to next-gen gaming, where lots of glitter, HD graphics and colored ribbons are seamlessly integrated to provide a streamlined, user-friendly experience for all ages!

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No steep learning curve, it's super easy!
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Get showered in empty rewards for doing basically nothing! Leverage our world-class, best-of-breed, procedurally-generated, digitally-enhanced BS! Aim assistance! Automap! Huge arrows showing the way! Colorful billboards floating over every objective! Cookie-cutter NPCs prodding you through exciting, linear plots! Lots of Deus ex machina devices to save your bacon! Everyone's an achiever - even you! Join thousands of immature asshats online!

Preorder your next-gen game now and get an exclusive dunce cap to show off to your friends!
Buy the game at release and get the other half six months later as paid downloadable content!


//===========================================//


It's just that people aren't being taught to deal with frustration anymore. Of course they want their rewards and they want it NOW - with little to no effort, if possible.

Does it really come as a surprise that this mindset is now reflected in videogames? The industry *is* working hard to meet the shallow yet urgent needs of a whole new generation of customers.

Being an old fart, I miss the time when games were frustrating in-game instead of IRL. =(

riignsa
07-22-2010, 01:37 AM
Scoot over old timers. Times a' changin'.

Ethan_Macmanus
07-22-2010, 01:45 AM
*]Join thousands of immature asshats online!

I think its great that you included yourself in that community.

such a trooper.

KnThrak
07-22-2010, 01:57 AM
I'd like to suggest that the problem most people have with Parasites isn't that they are "too powerful", but that they are frustrating to the player, because feel like you ought to be able to do something--even punching your teammate in the face--but the game won't let you.

Yeah you can do something.

Not let them get to your teammater, for one.
Not standing around in the front without covering fire or the point having a flamethrower, for two.


By the time you're cussing because as a non-medic you can't help the infected person, the group as a whole already failed.



Seriously, the game is on the easy side compared to the old alien swarm, mainly because the Flamethrower isn't dangerous enough to your teammates and because of the Tesla. Do we really need to remove the point of it (You're stil with a horde of aliens and your chances of survival are slim and even then depend on pinpoint perfect teamwork) even more? :S

Reptile24
07-22-2010, 02:05 AM
even punching your teammate in the face--but the game won't let you.



I tried this when the tech got facehugged, and I got the achievement "Parasite Puncher" on the last stage on hard, sadly I wasn't the medic, who which died due to the spitting things...

Didn't end well...

HvC_Terr
07-22-2010, 02:50 AM
To everyone complaining about "casual games" and "easy mode", you're barking up the wrong tree.

The problem isn't difficulty or complexity. The problem is a game world which is counter-intuitive or inconsistent. As I said, if it were a "viral bug" that turned teammates green, people can easily understand that "you can't punch a virus".

Having a deeply tactical and punishing game is separate from that issue. Imagine if you took X-Com, and then made it so that you could see through apartment windows but not shoot through them. Same kind of problem. Fixing the problem wouldn't make the game any less tactical.

I guess you missed the big hint tips the game tells you then? The one that says the ONLY cure for Parasites is Healing? An the electric armor also says "cures infestation" if you have it.

Dude. Think about it. First they tell you healing is the only way to remove it.

Then they give you an item that doesn't heal, but removes it!

A self-contradictory tip-system only reinforces my point about crappy information quality.

D-TurboKiller
07-22-2010, 03:01 AM
I already suggested something of the sort, and it was called meleeing facehuggers off your partner. Read the whole first comment for the idea. But look what that got me...
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1370937
In a nutshell, I could resume most of those comments with this:
blah blah shock armor blah blah get a good medic blah blah if you see one back away and shoot blah blah tesla cannon blah flamethrower blah blah tactics and good team blah blah OMG NOOB blah blah

However, people forget that:
*rant start*
-It doesn't matter how good you think your team is, how careful you are, how amazing your layout is, how effective you think the tesla cannon and flamethrower are and that spawn points for swarm are fixated... there's always a chance (it's not nearly as small as you think, either) that something will go horribly, horribly wrong. Your medic might die, most of your teammates might get infested and as a typical marine, you want to save at least one from dying, preferably by bashing that damned parasite off the tech or any other useful marine as a first priority. At least you can shake it off for a while and keep fighting until your last breath.
-Even if spawn points are fixed, you'd be lying if you didn't tell me that parasites still manage to surprise you out of nowhere.
-The medic isn't a perfect healing machine, as skilled as he might be. One too many common times he's either too busy or too far away to assist you on time. We're looking to reduce this hazardous condition.
-Perhaps one of the most important points: not everyone wants a bloody Shock Armor and a flamethrower/tesla cannon all the damned time. Personally I want to choose the loadout that I want and that works best with me, and I also want to experiment with new things. I don't want to see all my buddies use Shock Armor because they already know it makes it very easy to avoid infestation, while missing out on a bunch of useful items.
-Lastly, the Shock Armor is a selfish item, its only use is to save yourself from infestation, it works everytime, but you won't be able to do a damned thing about your teammates. But hey, you're a selfish bastard, right? You wouldn't care less.
*end rant*

And that pretty much sums up every reason you might want for a way to reduce frustration. At least for me.
And now watch as everyone who loves frustration comes up and disagrees with every single point I just made without actually saying something that even remotely works or attempts to fix frustration for both ends. Guaranteed.
Good day, gentlemen.

KnThrak
07-22-2010, 03:08 AM
So what point do Parasites have if they take ~0,8 seconds to remove via melee? They may as well get removed from the game then because their "scare factor" is just gone.
Compare it to the movie Alien. Facehugger = bad stuff.



I wonder what the big deal is, in any case. The missions take extremely little time to complete. Is everyone really that scared of wiping a mission 1-2 times that they need to get this (argueably only truly dangerous) challenge removed so we are back at "modern" difficulty of gaming where you can't ever die?

As far as I am concerned, dying is important in a game. Especially in a team game, or there is no feedback to the rest of the team that they screwed up. There are four marines, assuming say 3 facehuggers rush you, that's still 1 marine being free to support the others.
What was he doing while the other 3 tries to destroy their facehuggers? From what I read here, wanking to Faith's portray. :s

I somewhat agree one could trivialize parasites if the rest of the game becomes much tougher. And I mean much. On normal, the default aliens should pretty much 2-shot you, and have a charge attack which brings them into melee combat virtually instantly.

Would that really make a better balance?
No, because the people who can't be arsed to ever die in video games would just complain about that then.


There is already a fix to the parasite issue: Playing on non-insane. If you never need healing against anything but Parasites it is quite unlikely you won't have healing when someone is infected. Plus everyone could wear electrical armor too!
And then if you still can't do it, maybe... just maybe... it isn't the game's fault? ;)



(edit)
And that pretty much sums up every reason you might want for a way to reduce frustration.

Getting hit / damaged / killed in a video game != frustration.
It can be used as a plot device, as a sense of suspense (what parasites are!), as a ghetto difficulty (parasites can be this if your team hasn't fought them much) setting, as feedback of player decisions.

However, the last few years of game development have increasingly changed it so that dying or even getting severly damaged in a game is a bad, bad thing. Presumably to "reduce frustration". Ofc this means that once you see past the top layer, you notice all difficulty has evaporated because the game is doing the staying-alive work for you.

Alien Swarm is a remake of a mod of UT times. Difficulty wasn't yet "purged" from games back then, so ignoring that most non-parasites have been nerfed a lot, why is this even a big deal?
Parasites are not hard to fight. They're not frustrating either unless your team:
a) Doesn't communicate
b) Doesn't play together
c) Brought the wrong equipment
d) Is going for kills only

In each of those cases, it seems perfectly reasonable (from a lore/story PoV) that the team would get killed off.

Point?

Beezy
07-22-2010, 03:11 AM
Like unable to be seen when behind walls and can crawl in ceilings?

Ceilings exist? lol.

The one thing that bothers me is you can't even save yourself with your self-heal kit.

Even if you get infested at 100% health, your self-heal kit does not heal you enough to keep you alive.

My friends and I just get one medic to pack double health boxes.

HvC_Terr
07-22-2010, 10:39 AM
Does anybody else have this problem?

It seems like my teammates will frequently say auto-vocalize things like "Get it off me" that have nothing to do with parasites. And then when they finally do get parasitized for some reason, well, you can't hear the difference.

Voyager I
07-22-2010, 11:24 AM
They say that stuff whenever an alien gets too close to them.

Ethan_Macmanus
07-22-2010, 11:36 AM
to get this (argueably only truly dangerous) challenge removed so we are back at "modern" difficulty of gaming where you can't ever die?


or maybe cuz your feeble, elitist, one-track mind can't comprehend the idea of nerfing the parasite in favor of buffing the rest of the swarm to either retain or increase difficulty. From what I see from all the posts from ppl like you, more difficulty's good cuz it doesn't "cater to casuals"..

Yeah I know, that is an outlandish idea!

They may as well get removed from the game then because their "scare factor" is just gone.

Compare it to the movie Alien. Facehugger = bad stuff.

really? I coulda sworn it was the big black ♥♥♥♥in alien that can come out of nowhere and eat your heart that was the major scare-factor in that movie, the Facehuggers only lent themselves toward it.

Sarge945
07-22-2010, 11:57 AM
or maybe cuz your feeble, elitist, one-track mind can't comprehend the idea of nerfing the parasite in favor of buffing the rest of the swarm to either retain or increase difficulty. From what I see from all the posts from ppl like you, more difficulty's good cuz it doesn't "cater to casuals"..

Yeah I know, that is an outlandish idea!

Its called insane difficulty. It is not MEANT for "standard" players. It is the kind of difficulty where you want as much difficulty as possible, thats why its there. Hard is more for standard players, wheras insane was specifically designed to cater to hardcore games. If you see someone wanting an extremely hard difficulty setting to be just that...difficult, then you are the one with the problem.

On the other hand, parasites are frustrating, but I have never really had any major problems with them. The only time they are truly dangerous is if your medic is dead, or your team is full of complete idiots who all run in and get infested at the same time while on red health. Parasites themselves have REALLY low health and move rather slowly. Not only that, their color scheme makes them stick out like a sore thumb. Burning is reccomended, but shooting them is also incredibly effective.

Bonzar
07-22-2010, 12:01 PM
Scoot over old timers. Times a' changin'.

Is this in reference to those of us who enjoy the hard challenge that Insane (and the parasites in it) present to players? Because if so, I will admit that they're changing, but I'd argue that you need to scoot out of our game that still offers the challenge.

InfiniteDeath
07-22-2010, 12:06 PM
Why does everyone want to change the infestation mechanics. There are currently 3 ways to get rid of parasites, not including getting infected in the first place. This is the game's version of an ultimatum.

Stop complaining and take anti-parasite weapons like the flamethrower. Have two of your teammates play medic. Problem solved.

It seems all the complainers from TF2 migrated to the AS boards.

Bonzar
07-22-2010, 12:07 PM
-It doesn't matter how good you think your team is, how careful you are, how amazing your layout is, how effective you think the tesla cannon and flamethrower are and that spawn points for swarm are fixated... there's always a chance (it's not nearly as small as you think, either) that something will go horribly, horribly wrong. Your medic might die, most of your teammates might get infested and as a typical marine, you want to save at least one from dying, preferably by bashing that damned parasite off the tech or any other useful marine as a first priority. At least you can shake it off for a while and keep fighting until your last breath.
-Even if spawn points are fixed, you'd be lying if you didn't tell me that parasites still manage to surprise you out of nowhere.
-The medic isn't a perfect healing machine, as skilled as he might be. One too many common times he's either too busy or too far away to assist you on time. We're looking to reduce this hazardous condition.
-Perhaps one of the most important points: not everyone wants a bloody Shock Armor and a flamethrower/tesla cannon all the damned time. Personally I want to choose the loadout that I want and that works best with me, and I also want to experiment with new things. I don't want to see all my buddies use Shock Armor because they already know it makes it very easy to avoid infestation, while missing out on a bunch of useful items.
-Lastly, the Shock Armor is a selfish item, its only use is to save yourself from infestation, it works everytime, but you won't be able to do a damned thing about your teammates. But hey, you're a selfish bastard, right? You wouldn't care less.
*end rant*

Funny, I read these all as reasons to keep the parasites as is. Sorry that things go wrong sometimes, but it is the hardest difficulty available. It should still kill even the best teams from time to time. That way we're ALWAYS on the alert.

I don't care what loadout you want. Experiment to your heart's content. We take issue with you thinking that you should be able to ♥♥♥♥ around with different loadouts AND beat the campaign on Insane. The weapons/items are designed for specific purposes. You want that specificity to be erased in favor of you not dying. That's complaining about difficulty.

Pretending that you're selfish for taking shock armor is really just moronic. It saves me (as medic) from having to spend more time healing you, so it does me a huge favor. It keeps you from dying outright when things do go bad, so the team is helped by not being one man down. And you can use it in swarms to slowdown and damage the drones as they run through your machine gun and start attacking everyone.

Karva
07-22-2010, 12:42 PM
Lastly, the Shock Armor is a selfish item, its only use is to save yourself from infestation, it works everytime, but you won't be able to do a damned thing about your teammates. But hey, you're a selfish bastard, right? You wouldn't care less.

That's a pretty stupid way to look at it. You want your medic to stay alive longer, so don't bug me if I choose to wear shock armor. Thank me later when I can save your sorry butt.

As for the parasite debate, I just want the option to punch them off of people. Maybe it wouldn't be effective as healing them, but it would still work.

Turnkey
07-22-2010, 12:54 PM
Teslargun zaps them away quickly, then a medic can deploy some medic to save the infected marine.

Also make sure you know where the parasites come from and plan with your teammates how to kill them before they jump on sombody. tip: flamethrower

Cymen90
07-22-2010, 12:56 PM
Short answer: No!
Medics job PERIOD

NO MORE PARASITE COMPLAINT THREADS.

OiScout
07-22-2010, 12:59 PM
Lastly, the Shock Armor is a selfish item, its only use is to save yourself from infestation, it works everytime, but you won't be able to do a damned thing about your teammates. But hey, you're a selfish bastard, right? You wouldn't care less.

I find it selfish when my teammates just die so they can eat their pizza while I have to run through the level doing all the work.