Why do 73% of people use the Tribalman's Shiv?

[shadowray7]

It's one of the few melee unlocks that is a true blue sidegrade.

Source is here btw: http://tf2stats.net/items/

[Swordsman]

Because they want?

[eeh44]

Even with the nerf, the base damage + bleed does more damage than the Kukri, doesn't it?

[buljons]

I use it because i like the looks of it better than Kukri.

[Numbuh 214]

Snipers usually prefer a spy-checking knife...?

[Grink]

Because people thinks it is an upgrade and they like the bleeding effect.

[Ballin]

I use it because i like the looks of it better than Kukri.

This!
It's still strong with the bleed

[Buff]

It's a complete upgrade. Guaranteed Bleeding on hit is worth far more than -50% damage.

[Konoton]

One hit does more total damage than the Kukri.

[TOBI239]

good against spies
/thread

[Butcher Pete]

Having a near blind effect on anyone who uses Dx8 is pretty good.

[1qaz2wsx]

I prefer to have my enemy take damage even though they may have killed me or I hit them once and keep missing them. Snipers shouldn't be meleeing much anyway, so it doesn't matter that much which a person uses.

[shepp7]

I use normal. The shiv seems too weak

[Bonzi77]

Having a near blind effect on anyone who uses Dx8 is pretty good.

This

5this

[Deadlypudding]

It's a complete upgrade. Guaranteed Bleeding on hit is worth far more than random crits.

The topic is about the Shiv, not the Southern Hospitality. Sorry Buff, I like you, but your mind seems to be elsewhere at the moment.

[shadowray7]

It's a complete upgrade. Guaranteed Bleeding on hit is worth far more than random crits.

Wrong weapon *facepalm*

One hit does more total damage than the Kukri.

Counter Argument - Two quick hits with the kurki does more damage than two quick hits with the shiv.

[Spidery_Yoda]

Because they're stupid.

It does less damage initially, then slowly catches up to the initial damage the khukri did in the first place.

That's all it does.

This means your melee weapon will lose every melee fight and that's all it does.

[biffandreas]

I used it for about a week or 2. Then I switched back to the Kukri. Seriously, the amount of damage that the Shiv does compared to the Kukri is unacceptable. The base damage for the Shiv is a very low 32. And the Kukri is 65. I can take down Heavys/Soldiers with the Kukri and I have.

I'd also like to mention that the critical hit for the Kukri is 195, while the Shivs' critical is 90. :p

[Buff]

The topic is about the Shiv, not the Southern Hospitality. Sorry Buff, I like you, but your mind seems to be elsewhere at the moment.

Eh, I'm bored out of my mind and tired. Doesn't change though, Bleeding > -50% damage.

[Dr.Moriarty]

tf2stats.org has a filtered system of people all having the same weapons. meaning they don't count the all of the players just the players that have both the shiv and the Kukri. so you can't exactly take their figures at eye value.

if only they did the same kinda listing like they do hats we could get better values.

[IcanHazZombys]

It makes spies cloak flicker, it freaks out noobs into retreating, has great interplay with jarate and does more total damage.


I think the question is why everyone else uses the Kukri

[Hammer Pants]

Eh, I'm bored out of my mind and tired. Doesn't change though, Bleeding > -50% damage.

That's just plain untrue. You'll do more damage with the shiv if you hit once and only once. And it's only 15 more damage. Most fights usually take more than one melee hit, so the Kukri is nearly always more useful.

[thejimz]

I used to use the Shiv before it was nerfed; now it's useful exclusively against spies. The Kook is the way to go.

[Kerch]

The only time the shiv is better is if you only hit once, you don't get a random crit, the victim doesn't get healed or get a health-pack, and the victim doesn't kill you whilst he's bleeding.

Hence I believe the kukri is better.

[Buff]

That's just plain untrue. You'll do more damage with the shiv if you hit once and only once. And it's only 15 more damage. Most fights usually take more than one melee hit, so the Kukri is nearly always more useful.

Most fights consisting of a Sniper of trying to melee someone don't last more than 1 melee hit if the enemy can aim, and with Bleeding persisting after death and the fact it reveals cloaked Spies, Bleeding > -50% damage.

[Deadlypudding]

That's just plain untrue. You'll do more damage with the shiv if you hit once and only once. And it's only 15 more damage. Most fights usually take more than one melee hit, so the Kukri is nearly always more useful.

I don't think I've had very many melee fights that didn't resolve after one hit, and thats without crits. Because the whole thing comes to this, if you whip out that melee, in most cases you are desperate. So what happens is you've either injured the enemy enough to where a desperate melee attack drops him, or he kills you after you might have hit him once. I find this especially true of Sniper. The only classes a Sniper can generally hit more than once are Spies, yet most Snipers seem to agree the Shiv is better for Spies. Imagine that.

Ninja'd by Buff.

[MentelgenlySpy]

Screw the damage statistics, I like to hit once and back off, and then they still keep getting damage and red all over their screen.

[MafiaGuy7]

That's just plain untrue. You'll do more damage with the shiv if you hit once and only once. And it's only 15 more damage. Most fights usually take more than one melee hit, so the Kukri is nearly always more useful.

This is assuming that your hits with the Shiv are consecutive and you don't give the bleed effect time to do damage in between hits. If there are at least 2 seconds in between hits, the Shiv does more damage than the Kukri.

So, in a desperate last-ditch effort, the Kukri is better, as you're usually swinging wildly and getting as close as you can. In melee battles, which are usually more drawn out with more dodging and time between hits, the Shiv is better. Though, this is ignoring crits; the ability to drop most classes all in one go with a little luck definitely is a plus for the Kukri. It's why I use it, as well as the wrench over the SH in crit-enabled environments.

[SwoopDaLoop]

Having a near blind effect on anyone who uses Dx8 is pretty good.

How does it look like in dx9? I'm getting quite annoyed cuz I'm using dx8 >.<

[Dr.Moriarty]

How does it look like in dx9? I'm getting quite annoyed cuz I'm using dx8 >.<

slightly like yours but it pulses slowly between that and normal and makes the screen watery.

[BagofSnakes]

How does it look like in dx9? I'm getting quite annoyed cuz I'm using dx8 >.<

It's like jarate, except it pulses red everytime you bleed instead of wavy yellow.

[Mouldaiselne]

I don't see the point in bleeding. I prefer my spies dead, not bleeding. If I hit someone once, surely I'm going to hit them again.

[Pawzilla]

I think it's generally because what most snipers are worried about and are attacked by, are spies.

If you use the Kukri, the spy can generally just wait a bit, then cloak away, even if you get a hit on him.

If you use the Shiv, then you can hit him, and even it he tries to cloak away, you can still see where he is.

People use it more because it counters spies much, much better.

Who cares about DPS when you can render a spies cloak useless.

[Halodemon13]

Shiv + Jarate = Win

[deceptive_yoshi]

One hit does more damage

After that the kukri wins. Even if you use jarate with Shiv. But it's good for spy checking.

[pikagrue]

Because people hate spies.
Dear god, why did they have to add bleed to the game, and why does DR not drop the bleed effect like it does with afterburn?

[HeadStrikeR]

Because it's a nice tool to annoy and mark Spies, who manage to escape after a hit. Often you hit a spy with a non crit and he runs away, with bleeding some of your teammates may catch him while he's bleeding and can finish him off.

[kara_bulut]

Shiv is the ultimate anti spy weapon combined with jarate.

And I have a friggen sniper rifle and I have no use fighting at melee range.
So I use it as an anti spy weapon happliy throw jarate at people and shoot them in the head.

[Shinkz]

According to the Wiki:

Kukri
Base: 65
Crit: 195

Shiv:
Base: 32 (+51 bleed)
Crit: 96 (+51 bleed)


Personally I don't use it. I like to kill my enemy straight off not deal less damage allowing them more time to kill me and run off for a health pack. Only worth using on no crit servers imo.

[zeo]

spy checking for me since i don't play sniper i really don't use it. I do prefer the Southern Hospitality though?

[DorfMaster]

99% of the time that I'm playing sniper I'm running huntsman/jarate, so the mini crit melee/bleeds from the shiv are really nice. Especially if you end up in a melee-melee fight with someone. Jarate, get your hit in, keep away from them and enjoy their pain. Besides, when it does come down to being forced to melee, chances are your death is upcoming. You might as well get that minicrit bleed on them and hope they die as punishment.

[Scorch238]

I carry Jarate and Shiv because I'm crap at sniper. Any weapon that lets me make a lasting impression helps me out.

Plus, Jarate/Shiv is extremely dangerous.

[dorko4u]

The logic in my head says that melee is a joke and should never used. Unless you're a spy. So, with that logic, I never use the kukri. With the shiv, I am always reminded that it will do damage over time, even though that's kind of useless. I dunno. I went back to the kukri anyway. Maybe I should go back to the shiv to use it against spies.

[killionaire]

I carry the Kukri as a last-ditch effort against other classes since I don't carry an SMG.

Perhaps carry out some ninja actions against bad Demomen.

[Neo-Phoenix]

It good for getting that last hit on the enemy as they kill you and then seeing them just drop to the floor in the killcam shot >:-)

Also i like how it looks ^^

[Tigerhawk71]

The bleeding effects. It means they have an easier time finding spies. I.e, they can suck balls and still find spies due to latency compensation and random swinging in tight areas.

[McPuff]

When I use the shiv (which is about 90% of the time) I don't intend on getting many kills with it. When things get desperate, I'll jarate on the enemy, get one shiv hit in, and run. With the enemy disoriented by the bleed effect/running to find a health pack, I usually get out alive. The bleed may not kill them, but now that I have a little distance my rifle will.

[Fel]

Recall that most people probably equipped the shiv to play with it once, and then didn't bother playing enough sniper to truly decide between shiv and kukri. Thus these statistics don't mean that 90% of people use the kukri, just that 90% have it equipped.

[DoorMaster]

Because they're stupid.

It does less damage initially, then slowly catches up to the initial damage the khukri did in the first place.

That's all it does.

This means your melee weapon will lose every melee fight and that's all it does.

Not necessarily. The bleed is extremely annoying because of the blinding visual effect that happens when hit.

[ChriZ TaH FaH]

when the shiv first came out i used it, but post nerf i stopped using it. most of the time between a sniper and a soldier near a spun up heavy...the heavy goes after the soldier and because of higher crit rate on melee me and the soldier (or other class) make it out alive. its good for spies but any good spy should kill you before you could get a melee hit in, and if he doesn't the kook usually gets him.

shiv was good b4 but not worth it to me anymore. 2 hits with shiv does less damage than 2 with kook. either damage now or damage later, if they find a dispenser/medic/health pack they will live. snipers shouldn't get in melee range either way but at this point i just like the kook more.

[Ape_Drape]

Having a near blind effect on anyone who uses Dx8 is pretty good.

Anyone still using DX8 deserve whatever bad things happen to them.

[Xerotype X]

It looks cool
Good for finding spies
The amount of damage to me is enough for any enemy that manages to get into melee range of the sniper. Most likely they would of taken damage from the rest of my team, so only one hit is really necessary. It's just a backup weapon.
The bleed affect is visually disturbing and allows for hit'n'run. It's good against pyros since you could get a hit on them once and make them bleed before they airblast you back. Same with scouts.

[0'M4ll3y]

Does anyone beside me actually prefer the Kukri model to the Shiv?

[chucklenuts]

Even with the nerf, the base damage + bleed does more damage than the Kukri, doesn't it?

Someone made a chart aboot that actually.
Shiv only does more if you hit them once, efter that kukri does the higher amount.

[Grimzy!!!]

I'd have to say, that some people use because it can show spies, and with that they don't need a Jarate so they can have something else like the SMG or something. :)

[Marchenoir]

It's a complete upgrade. Guaranteed Bleeding on hit is worth far more than -50% damage.

Nope. If you happen to melee someone as Sniper, you want that someone to die as soon as possible because Sniper is so vulnerable in close range

-50% damage is absolutely terrible

[ZX_XZ]

Because, I play on 2fort a lot. That means that there is umpteen bad snipers, so I play sniper for the lolz, I believe I had 20 Heads on my S. BB. And umpteen bad spies. Hit them once, they run screaming away like a bunch of sissies.

[Bloodninja93]

Massive necro

[ZX_XZ]

Eh. Someone necro'd it, might as well talk about it. try not to make it a wasted necro

[Scratchbacker]

To anyone saying that shiv goes well with jarate.
How stupid are you from a scale 1 to 10? Its a clear 10 I tell ya.

Shiv deal a total 95 base damage when you hit someone once with the shiv and let them bleed IF they are covered in jarate.

With bushwacka you deal 195 damage. Thats 100 more damage and its NOT over time. The shiv is only useful in situations where you would only score one hit(bushwacka is better in that situation). But when it comes to situations where you would score two hits kukri and bushwacka is better. I have no idea why so many people still use the shiv. Its a situational weapon that is decent against spies and strong against dx8 users. But thats it.

[Chizuru]

To anyone saying that shiv goes well with jarate.
How stupid are you from a scale 1 to 10? Its a clear 10 I tell ya.

Shiv deal a total 95 base damage when you hit someone once with the shiv and let them bleed IF they are covered in jarate.

With bushwacka you deal 195 damage. Thats 100 more damage and its NOT over time. The shiv is only useful in situations where you would only score one hit(bushwacka is better in that situation). But when it comes to situations where you would score two hits kukri and bushwacka is better. I have no idea why so many people still use the shiv. Its a situational weapon that is decent against spies and strong against dx8 users. But thats it.

When this thread was created, the bushwacka didn't exist to the time. So they had only the choice between shiv or kukri with the Jarate.

[isildur4]

becuase theres still no strange kukri

[Sentries]

It's good for spy-checking