The No Mercy experiement is over! (No more kits)

[Xalphin]

It's no coincidence that none of the ported No Mercy maps had any health kits outside of the saferoom on Vs. One can only assume this was a test run. Well, it's been months and no torrents of whining or complaining has come from players about how the NM maps need healthkits.

So now isn't it time to extend this to all maps?

[Zora-Link]

*Preaches about realism versus*

I thought they already dramatically reduced the number of kits outside the saferoom? Though none in regular versus would be fine...

[Koga Shiro]

It's no coincidence that none of the ported No Mercy maps had any health kits outside of the saferoom on Vs. One can only assume this was a test run. Well, it's been months and no torrents of whining or complaining has come from players about how the NM maps need healthkits.

So now isn't it time to extend this to all maps?

Isn't it amazing how people could have defeaned elephants with their yelling about how the game would be utterly unplayable/impossible/make everyone quit if Valve did something "to pander to hardcores" like removing medkits from versus.

But then when they actually go and do it, not only do none of those bad things happen, but no one even complains. You'd almost think the people who said versus is too ridiculously babysoft on survivors were right all along or something.

[Kool Mode D]

It's no coincidence that none of the ported No Mercy maps had any health kits outside of the saferoom on Vs. One can only assume this was a test run. Well, it's been months and no torrents of whining or complaining has come from players about how the NM maps need healthkits.

So now isn't it time to extend this to all maps?

Agreed, L4D2's VS NM plays so much better than L4D1 VS NM. Anyone remember the medkit spam of NM2 and NM3 in L4D1 VS? I'm glad those days are over.

[Phaseshifter]

It's no coincidence that none of the ported No Mercy maps had any health kits outside of the saferoom on Vs. One can only assume this was a test run. Well, it's been months and no torrents of whining or complaining has come from players about how the NM maps need healthkits.

So now isn't it time to extend this to all maps?

No mercy is a small maps. And bad players already complain about hacking whenever they die as survivor.

It's not gonna happen.

[Bud042]

Ya know, I didn't even notice there were no health packs throughout the maps

[prophecy holder]

Isn't it amazing how people could have defeaned elephants with their yelling about how the game would be utterly unplayable/impossible/make everyone quit if Valve did something "to pander to hardcores" like removing medkits from versus.

But then when they actually go and do it, not only do none of those bad things happen, but no one even complains. You'd almost think the people who said versus is too ridiculously babysoft on survivors were right all along or something.

Of course the people who said versus is too ridiculously babysoft on survivors were right. They've been right all along ever since the first unneeded nerf to the infected. This is only further proof which I bet those naysayers are grinding thier teeth and spinning in thier chairs with anger.

Never listen to the casuals, they know absolutely nothing on how to make a game good.

[Bindal]

Isn't it amazing how people could have defeaned elephants with their yelling about how the game would be utterly unplayable/impossible/make everyone quit if Valve did something "to pander to hardcores" like removing medkits from versus.

But then when they actually go and do it, not only do none of those bad things happen, but no one even complains. You'd almost think the people who said versus is too ridiculously babysoft on survivors were right all along or something.
And that's why RVS is also the least-played mode of all?

[Scars Tropics]

So many kits, pills and defibs in the parish and hard rain you can heal up to 99 and use the rest for doorstops and ammo for the gl.

[Nyte v2]

Ya know, I didn't even notice there were no health packs throughout the maps

because you never used your first one mirite

[Xeesheava]

REMEMBER THE PASSING AND THE INFINITE PILLS STASH.

[prophecy holder]

And that's why RVS is also the least-played mode of all?

If that were true then why does a great majority of players have strong feelings against constant ragequitters?

When Chet says stuff, it's usually wrong.

[Kool Mode D]

REMEMBER THE PASSING AND THE INFINITE PILLS STASH.

There is no infinite pill footlockers when you play VS or RVS in The Passing (and good thing there aren't any).

[No_wander_off]

There is no infinite pill footlockers when you play VS or RVS in The Passing (and good thing there aren't any).

the casuals needs those footlockers, valve should bring them back.

COULD SOMEONE PLEASE THINK ON THE POOR CASUALS?

[Xeesheava]

There is no infinite pill footlockers when you play VS or RVS in The Passing (and good thing there aren't any).

I saw it once on VS, we did a lot of damage, then... 99 all... FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU.

[Kool Mode D]

the casuals needs those footlockers, valve should bring them back.

COULD SOMEONE PLEASE THINK ON THE POOR CASUALS?

lol

I saw it once on VS, we did a lot of damage, then... 99 all... FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU.

It must have been a modded server because I have never seen a single footlocker in The Passing VS.

[DINOSAUR!!]

who plays NM anyways? it's all about swamp fever!!!

jk, SF sucks and NM is literally all i've been playing since its release

[Xeesheava]

who plays NM anyways? it's all about swamp fever!!!

jk, SF sucks and NM is literally all i've been playing since its release

NM and TS.

[DINOSAUR!!]

anything with original survs > anything with new survs

[Xalphin]

No mercy is a small maps. And bad players already complain about hacking whenever they die as survivor.

It's not gonna happen.

Not really.

[Koga Shiro]

And that's why RVS is also the least-played mode of all?

That's because if you ask an idiot if he wants ice cream or yogurt he's going to take ice cream, even if yogurt is better for you.

[V.P.]

Recently I noticed I have been playing No Mercy in versus exclusively and when thinking about it came to the conclusion that it is exactly because of no medkits outside the saferoom and no defibs at all.

It just makes the game that much more interesting when you can not rely on finding a medkit around every corner. Also the lack of defibs means that as infected you actually feel like accomplishing something when killing a survivor, bringing the whole team of survivors that much closer to being wiped.

[TGUSOL]

NM is better beacuse it is tighter and the lack of Health based goodies bar pills outside the saferoom is a good thing, I am not for removing HK's completely from the game though.

That's because if you ask an idiot if he wants ice cream or yogurt he's going to take ice cream, even if yogurt is better for you.

Ground Control To koga ..come in Koga!so L4D2-R is better for you than L4D-V and i will have a longer life will I and less chance of a heart attack playing L4D2-R ?

[Halo Hedgey]

I haven't seen a Medkit in L4D2 Versus in quite some time. Maybe I'm smoking something, though. I know I see them all the time in L4D1 Versus.

[SonikFan]

Isn't there a medkit in the ambulance in NM3? I'll have to do a test later.

EDIT: Just did a test (involving the console, map c8m3_sewers, sv_cheats 1, sb_all_bot_game 1 and noclip) and yes, a single medkit does spawn in NM3 in the ambulance near the end.

[Spanky88]

while that health kit is still there, I never see anyone pick it up. By the time you heal you'd be in the safe room anyway, and since health isnt a factor in score in this game its kinda pointless.

[napalmxxx2]

If that were true then why does a great majority of players have strong feelings against constant ragequitters?

When Chet says stuff, it's usually wrong.

never saw the point of RVS to begin with, classic VS I barely cared about because of all the unsuccessful trolls bringing their little sisters on the mic.

[Gogol]

Isn't there a medkit in the ambulance in NM3? I'll have to do a test later.

EDIT: Just did a test (involving the console, map c8m3_sewers, sv_cheats 1, sb_all_bot_game 1 and noclip) and yes, a single medkit does spawn in NM3 in the ambulance near the end.

Yeah, even CEVO competitive mods had a hard time removing that one back in L4D1.

But one extra medkit at the end of a long map and no health bonus doesn't really matter. It's the ones halfway through like the gun store in DC2 or the tents in Parish 2 that ruin balance.

[Jayjones]

WOW YOUR SERIOUS???I DIDN'T EVEN NOTICE THEIR WASN'T ANY!!!
maybe cause i never used my original HK... but wow i feel WAY stupid

[Koga Shiro]

NM is better beacuse it is tighter and the lack of Health based goodies bar pills outside the saferoom is a good thing, I am not for removing HK's completely from the game though.



Ground Control To koga ..come in Koga!so L4D2-R is better for you than L4D-V and i will have a longer life will I and less chance of a heart attack playing L4D2-R ?

If you require that question to be answered, you need to re-read the thread in context instead of searching for my name and making snarky responses. Thanks.

[TGUSOL]

If you require that question to be answered, you need to re-read the thread in context instead of searching for my name and making snarky responses. Thanks.

Eh, trust me I dont ever search for your comments :D a silly remark is a silly remark let's face it.

[shermalerm]

I can't believe I haven't noticed this. That and the amount of NM lobbies is proof this community doesn't need their hand held as much as valve would lead us to believe.

[No_wander_off]

I can't believe I haven't noticed this. That and the amount of NM lobbies is proof this community doesn't need their hand held as much as valve would lead us to believe.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT! they should bring the defibs back, i can't make it 3 feet out of the safe room without a defib!

[081XxhephexX180]

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT! they should bring the defibs back, i can't make it 3 feet out of the safe room without a defib!

l2p nub ;)

[Krandel]

l2p nub ;)

You do know he's being sarcastic, right?

[081XxhephexX180]

You do know he's being sarcastic, right?

You do know I'm being sarcastic too, right?

[No_wander_off]

You do know I'm being sarcastic too, right?

i'm not being sarcastic! this game is too hard! i hate what the elitist did to this game, they ruined it! i can't believe VALVE was dumb enough to listen to them. the game is fine dammit!

:p:p:p:p:p:p

[081XxhephexX180]

i'm not being sarcastic! this game is too hard! i hate what the elitist did to this game, they ruined it! i can't believe VALVE was dumb enough to listen to them. the game is fine dammit!

:p:p:p:p:p:p

Yeah, me neither! I mean, I need those two medkits after I heal myself at 60 HP! How am I supposed to make it to the saferoom without 12 medkits per map! :mad:

[Stagger Lee]

I propose a permanant defibulator that you can use repeatedly!

[Kody1190]

lol..... i really think that the medkits are pretty fine, at least if you end up with a good team on both ends. for example, i ended up playing against a team of "pub stompers" with a team of all randoms. neither team made it to the safe room because we worked together, we ended up winning to. also, NM has small maps that really i can see they wouldn't need medkits, however maps that are longer (DeC2) would need a extra medkit or two, the 4 in the gunshop is a little overkill though, maybe 2 and a pair of pills would be better.

either way, i have been against making it harder on the suvivors for a long time now, as i play with pubs and they actually need them, i end up giving away my medkit, 3 bottles of pills, another medkit, and making it almost to the safe room with minimal healing for me, i usually end up on B/W before the end because they waste so many health items though. :/

I just typed what came to my head, sorry if it doesn't all make sense, ill review it later.

[<Witty name>]

I'm no good at the game, so I can't offer any super-pro opinions. I don't find it too bad, although going through the level with almost no medkits can be irritating if you've used most of them in the saferoom.

[Krandel]

i'm not being sarcastic! this game is too hard! i hate what the elitist did to this game, they ruined it! i can't believe VALVE was dumb enough to listen to them. the game is fine dammit!

:p:p:p:p:p:p

You wasn't?
Really?
Whenever I see someone use All Caps for one sentence like:

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!

I just assume they're being sarcastic.

Although I do agree that the elitists did ruin the game. Was fine the way it was.

[iceman78772]

It's no coincidence that none of the ported No Mercy maps had any health kits outside of the saferoom on Vs. One can only assume this was a test run. Well, it's been months and no torrents of whining or complaining has come from players about how the NM maps need healthkits.

So now isn't it time to extend this to all maps?

Yeh,dude it's a HOSPITAL it's supposed to be full of ♥♥♥♥ing packs

[prophecy holder]

Although I do agree that the elitists did ruin the game. Was fine the way it was.

I know your being sarcastic, but for those that strogly beleive this then explain to me how they ruined this game?

[081XxhephexX180]

You wasn't?
Really?
Whenever I see someone use All Caps for one sentence like:



I just assume they're being sarcastic.

Although I do agree that the elitists did ruin the game. Was fine the way it was.

Dude, you have to get a new Sarcasm-o-meter, the one you have now isn't working, at all.

[Whazze]

lol..... i really think that the medkits are pretty fine, at least if you end up with a good team on both ends. for example, i ended up playing against a team of "pub stompers" with a team of all randoms. neither team made it to the safe room because we worked together, we ended up winning to. also, NM has small maps that really i can see they wouldn't need medkits, however maps that are longer (DeC2) would need a extra medkit or two, the 4 in the gunshop is a little overkill though, maybe 2 and a pair of pills would be better.

either way, i have been against making it harder on the suvivors for a long time now, as i play with pubs and they actually need them, i end up giving away my medkit, 3 bottles of pills, another medkit, and making it almost to the safe room with minimal healing for me, i usually end up on B/W before the end because they waste so many health items though. :/

I just typed what came to my head, sorry if it doesn't all make sense, ill review it later.
somehow i don't believe you
I'm no good at the game, so I can't offer any super-pro opinions. I don't find it too bad, although going through the level with almost no medkits can be irritating if you've used most of them in the saferoom.

l2p?

[Krandel]

I know your being sarcastic, but for those that strogly beleive this then explain to me how they ruined this game?

I'm not being sarcastic, but, as for explaining how elitists ruined the game, the way that I see it.........

Ok I can't explain it. But my opinions still remain.

Dude, you have to get a new Sarcasm-o-meter, the one you have now isn't working, at all.

I would, but they're too expensive now-a-days.

[No_wander_off]

I'm not being sarcastic, but, as for explaining how elitists ruined the game, the way that I see it.........

Ok I can't explain it. But my opinions still remain.



I would, but they're too expensive now-a-days.

i can give you one for xmas!

[081XxhephexX180]

This one (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dSZ36A0-GBI/TQeyaxUI3AI/AAAAAAAADdQ/uzzPCY1d5o4/s1600/sarcasm_meter.jpg) works like a charm, and it's pretty cheap too. :D

[prophecy holder]

Sarcasm detector? Yah, that's a real useful invention.

[Krandel]

Sarcasm detector? Yah, that's a real useful invention.

It is, isn't it?

EDIT: Hey wait, you're being sarcastic.

[prophecy holder]

You didn't get the reference. :(

[081XxhephexX180]

It is, isn't it?

EDIT: Hey wait, you're being sarcastic.

He's not, is he? Wait, maybe he is being sarcastic. Maybe not, or yes? I'm confused!! :( :o :mad:

[Krandel]

You didn't get the reference. :(

Reference? What?

[Xalphin]

Anyways....GET RID OF THE XTRA KITS PLZ.

[SoulNefarious]

I noticed this but honestly... does it matter? The No Mercy maps, well most of them, are excessively short and easy to rush... so even without the spawns you still survive most of the time. The only really "hard" map is No Mercy 4. However, they can't just extend this to all maps... I know it makes it more fun when the survivors are mercilessly(sp?) slaughtered, but... Valve has to think of all those people that suck :)
Oh well, what do I care? I've played No Mercy on versus four times since it was released. And I'm not playing it again until Valve does something about the finale spawns. I prefered autospawn... since, if the survivor team is smart, it's almost impossible to get a good spawn going :\

[CanadaRox]

Pick a certain survival percentage. Remove medkits until the average survival "chance" is about that percent. Further tweak by changing pill/shot/throwable density. Just please for the love of god don't aim for a 90% survival rate like it seems you are aiming for right now.

[TripleNipple]

Pick a certain survival percentage. Remove medkits until the average survival "chance" is about that percent. Further tweak by changing pill/shot/throwable density. Just please for the love of god don't aim for a 90% survival rate like it seems you are aiming for right now.

Come on now. Let's think this through on valve's perspective. If only 90% of casual players survive, that means the 10% of the people who die will quit the game due to frustration and humiliation. Then somehow our profit margins might decrease by 10%. We want everyone to make it; we have a fair system of breaking ties in the end by infected points anyway.

[P.M.]

Why would Valve care if the 10% quits? They already paid for the game.

Even more so, 10% less players means 10% less needed servers. And that actually saves money.

[Kool Mode D]

I noticed this but honestly... does it matter? The No Mercy maps, well most of them, are excessively short and easy to rush... so even without the spawns you still survive most of the time. The only really "hard" map is No Mercy 4. However, they can't just extend this to all maps... I know it makes it more fun when the survivors are mercilessly(sp?) slaughtered, but... Valve has to think of all those people that suck :)
Oh well, what do I care? I've played No Mercy on versus four times since it was released. And I'm not playing it again until Valve does something about the finale spawns. I prefered autospawn... since, if the survivor team is smart, it's almost impossible to get a good spawn going :\

NM4 is the hardest map according to you? Really? NM3 is by far tougher due to the crescendo and it's longer than NM4 meaning more infected attacks. Also please tell me your joking that you prefer autospawn than the current ghost spawning we have now. Yes the minimum spawn radius is unnecessarily large on this finle and needs to be reduced but at least I can choose where and when to spawn albeit further than I would like to. Autospawn, especially as the noisy and slow Boomer, was painful and really ruined finales when it used to be enabled. Ghost spawning is an improvement over the utter travesty of autospawn.

[TripleNipple]

Why would Valve care if the 10% quits? They already paid for the game.

Even more so, 10% less players means 10% less needed servers. And that actually saves money.

Apparently, sarcasm doesn't transfer well in text form.

[Acid_squirrel]

Im not one to care what platform someone plays on, do whatever. But I stumbled onto the 360 forums few days ago and someone made a post crying how the sacrafice and no mercy have no kits/defibs outside of the safe room. Going on how he couldn't make it on normal while playing with 2 pros, was funny since there was this topic over here.

*edit* hes actually only going on about defibs, surprisingly. How bad do you have to be.

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1483994

[081XxhephexX180]

On Xbox it's a lot harder than on PC, the players might have good reactions to everything that's happening around them, but the controller doesn't allow them to turn around or look up or down fast enough to avoid getting damage. It's not the player's fault (kinda), it's the game that doesn't allow higher analog stick sensitivity.

[Iknomyabcs]

On Xbox it's a lot harder than on PC, the players might have good reactions to everything that's happening around them, but the controller doesn't allow them to turn around or look up or down fast enough to avoid getting damage. It's not the player's fault (kinda), it's the game that doesn't allow higher analog stick sensitivity.

Agreed

[Koga Shiro]

lol..... i really think that the medkits are pretty fine, at least if you end up with a good team on both ends. for example, i ended up playing against a team of "pub stompers" with a team of all randoms. neither team made it to the safe room because we worked together, we ended up winning to. also, NM has small maps that really i can see they wouldn't need medkits, however maps that are longer (DeC2) would need a extra medkit or two, the 4 in the gunshop is a little overkill though, maybe 2 and a pair of pills would be better.

either way, i have been against making it harder on the suvivors for a long time now, as i play with pubs and they actually need them, i end up giving away my medkit, 3 bottles of pills, another medkit, and making it almost to the safe room with minimal healing for me, i usually end up on B/W before the end because they waste so many health items though. :/

I just typed what came to my head, sorry if it doesn't all make sense, ill review it later.

When "good teams" play they make the saferoom in green health with 0 medkits on the map. You've never seen what used to be called Frustian's/Roto games in L4D1, or confogl games in L4D2? This is not new, those modsets have been around for ages. No medkits is ONLY new to casual pubs who swore that no kits would make the game impossible until the No Mercy port in L4D2 was backdoored in with no kits and no one even noticed.

I think more what you probably meant was that kits don't make a big difference or kill the game when both teams are roughly equal, and roughly equally bad. Because only in that situation will survivors die anyway before reaching saferoom and the kits won't have noticeably harmed the outcome of the game.

Yeh,dude it's a HOSPITAL it's supposed to be full of ♥♥♥♥ing packs

Please no realism arguments.

I noticed this but honestly... does it matter? The No Mercy maps, well most of them, are excessively short and easy to rush... so even without the spawns you still survive most of the time. The only really "hard" map is No Mercy 4. However, they can't just extend this to all maps... I know it makes it more fun when the survivors are mercilessly(sp?) slaughtered, but... Valve has to think of all those people that suck :)
Oh well, what do I care? I've played No Mercy on versus four times since it was released. And I'm not playing it again until Valve does something about the finale spawns. I prefered autospawn... since, if the survivor team is smart, it's almost impossible to get a good spawn going :\

Kits mattering or not mattering has nothing to do with the length or ease of No Mercy, people have been routinely making saferoom in no-medkit conditions since relatively early on in L4D1 and almost right away in L4D2 in versus.

[Chocolate Rain!]

*Preaches about realism versus*


AMEN BROTHER

[prophecy holder]

*Preaches about realism versus*

To bad the type of players it attracts are mongoloids. You have a better time finding an intelligent decent person playing Halo than encountering a non-idiot in realism versus.

[BlueTrin]

Isn't it amazing how people could have defeaned elephants with their yelling about how the game would be utterly unplayable/impossible/make everyone quit if Valve did something "to pander to hardcores" like removing medkits from versus.

But then when they actually go and do it, not only do none of those bad things happen, but no one even complains. You'd almost think the people who said versus is too ridiculously babysoft on survivors were right all along or something.

I remember saying this when L4D1 was just out ...

[JonTrueshot]

I agree. It's time to change the other campaigns, ESPECIALLY maps like Dead Center 2 and The Parish 2 which are notorious for having way too many medkits. There's no real reason for people to complain about a change; I haven't heard any rallying cries for Valve to add extra health kits to the NM and TS maps.

[Xalphin]

Bump for the admins! (Take Notice)

[Drowning Witch]

Bump for the admins! (Take Notice)

you said you play confogl, why do you care about pub peasants :p ;)

[Xalphin]

you said you play confogl, why do you care about pub peasants :p ;)




Very elaborated comment, no doubt.

What's being «suggested» according to you sounds more like a rant wich its content is nothing but a pair of hackneyed ideas towards vanilla versus.

If people actually played against equal foes on a RVS game, even with all the T2's spawn there wouldn't be such constant ranting.

Left 4 dead 2 epicurists shouldn't be making this type of threads but actually playing a match or two.

Everything that's being said here, sounds like something that only a bunch of public players would say.




My God, it goes on forever, and it's full of FAIL!

Seriously THAT'S THE FU*KING POINT! We want a game where the PUBLIC NORMAL GAME PART is balanced, fair, fun, and you don't have to play friends games or confogl all the time in order to get that experience.

Someone most have reprogrammed the matrix.

[Koga Shiro]

I agree. It's time to change the other campaigns, ESPECIALLY maps like Dead Center 2 and The Parish 2 which are notorious for having way too many medkits. There's no real reason for people to complain about a change; I haven't heard any rallying cries for Valve to add extra health kits to the NM and TS maps.

It's the Status Quo Brigade, the people who, at any point in the L4D series timeline, have always said the game is perfectly fine as it is right now, and if you ask for it to be easier you're a noob, and if you ask for it to be harder you're a hardcore with no life.

These people have habitually been proven wrong, as no matter what small steps Valve takes to make the game harder (and it always falls ridiculously short of what the skilled players say would be necessary to balance the game), the playerbase just adapts and in the case of removing kits from No Mercy, hardly anyone even notices the change. Even though Status Quo Brigade yelled that such a change would make everyone quit the game en masse.

Most people I know quit playing L4D2 before the NM port, so I wonder what conclusion we can draw from that. The game probably lost more players from not having remotely balanced versus than it ever lost from "pandering to hardcores with balance changes."

[Xman]

anything with original survs > anything with new survs
This a million times.

Also: nighttime campaigns > daytime campaigns

[Drowning Witch]

Someone most have reprogrammed the matrix.

i was just midly trolling you, that wasn't a serios statement lol :D

and lol koga shiro raised from the dead, back in the endless crusade, of "lets make valve balance the game" :D

I predict much balance discussion in the upcoming days! :p

[princos70]

Also: nighttime campaigns > daytime campaigns

I think it's related to:

Nightime is closer to horror theme

Darker maps reduce visibility a little (more difficulty for suvivors).

[Xalphin]

i was just midly trolling you, that wasn't a serios statement lol :D

and lol koga shiro raised from the dead, back in the endless crusade, of "lets make valve balance the game" :D

I predict much balance discussion in the upcoming days! :p

:p on you

[DuckOfDeath]

Stop playing noob versus and this becomes a non issue. You guys know that there are NO extra kits in realism versus, right? I mean, seriously, why not rail on about how easy campiagn mode is too easy while you're at it.

[No_wander_off]

Stop playing noob versus and this becomes a non issue. You guys know that there are NO extra kits in realism versus, right? I mean, seriously, why not rail on about how easy campiagn mode is too easy while you're at it.

...And you bumped this thread to say that?

(not saying that you are wrong, it's just a little...wierd)

while we are at it, no game-breaking defibs in RVS either.

[prophecy holder]

Did this thread really need necro'ing?

[Jayjones]

Well, this thread just gave me the "Shock Jock" achievement for reviving this thread

[SonikFan]

Stop playing noob versus and this becomes a non issue. You guys know that there are NO extra kits in realism versus, right? I mean, seriously, why not rail on about how easy campiagn mode is too easy while you're at it.

That's the only thing I hate about this forum; Vanilla Versus actually takes (gasp) SKILL. Yet you guys act like it's a cake walk.

I already put my response; this is pretty cool, but a single medkit DOES spawn in the ambulance, No Mercy 3. But it's at the very end of the level, so it's kinda useless.

[No_wander_off]

That's the only thing I hate about this forum; Vanilla Versus actually takes (gasp) SKILL. Yet you guys act like it's a cake walk.

....err, you serious?

[gatherto]

....err, you serious?

it takes quite a lot of skill to incap the survivors. you need great teamwork and timing

[No_wander_off]

it takes quite a lot of skill to incap the survivers. you need great teamwork and timing

i thought he meant the survivors.

[Zora-Link]

it takes quite a lot of skill to incap the survivers. you need great teamwork and timing

Then they pick themselves up from the floor, grab a spare medkit from the shelves right beside them, and continue on their merry way to the saferoom.

[Sublime2k]

That's the only thing I hate about this forum; Vanilla Versus actually takes (gasp) SKILL. Yet you guys act like it's a cake walk.
Right... Once you try RVS with proper players, vanilla versus becomes simply absurd. I don't think I'll play it ever again, actually. Okay, maybe just to introduce my friends to the game if they decide to start playing it.

[gatherto]

Then they pick themselves up from the floor, grab a spare medkit from the shelves right beside them, and continue on their merry way to the saferoom.

which is why infected takes a LOT of skill
i am not, and never have, denied that survivors have a large advantage. but with SI you need to use the geography to your advantage (chokepoints, deathcharges, 1-ways, or large backtrack paths) to get maximum seperation or a 4-cap

[Stagger Lee]

which is why infected takes a LOT of skill
i am not, and never have, denied that survivors have a large advantage. but with SI you need to use the geography to your advantage (chokepoints, deathcharges, 1-ways, or large backtrack paths) to get maximum seperation or a 4-cap


You have to do all of this in Realism VS also if you plan on killing the survivors. And if your response would be that it is easy to kill survivors in Realism VS all I have to say is that you need to find some groups with better players in it and not play in the pubs anymore.

[Zora-Link]

which is why infected takes a LOT of skill
i am not, and never have, denied that survivors have a large advantage. but with SI you need to use the geography to your advantage (chokepoints, deathcharges, 1-ways, or large backtrack paths) to get maximum seperation or a 4-cap

Vanilla versus matches tend to come down to, as you said, deathcharges and whatnot. Losing because the opposing team got 2 chargers on the No Mercy 4 roof, or winning because you managed to take out two after the elevator on Hard Rain 3.... that's not balanced. It's not skill either. Half of winning in vanilla versus is luck with spawns, or praying that your charger hitbox doesn't screw up. And of course you use the level to your advantage; not doing so is foolish. It shouldn't be required to get a death charge to stand even a minor chance of stopping the survivors, because, quite frankly, in vanilla versus unless the teams are massively imbalanced or just bad, the survivors are going to make it every time, death charges excepted.

[gatherto]

Vanilla versus matches tend to come down to, as you said, deathcharges and whatnot. Losing because the opposing team got 2 chargers on the No Mercy 4 roof, or winning because you managed to take out two after the elevator on Hard Rain 3.... that's not balanced. It's not skill either. Half of winning in vanilla versus is luck with spawns, or praying that your charger hitbox doesn't screw up. And of course you use the level to your advantage; not doing so is foolish. It shouldn't be required to get a death charge to stand even a minor chance of stopping the survivors, because, quite frankly, in vanilla versus unless the teams are massively imbalanced or just bad, the survivors are going to make it every time, death charges excepted.

you are pointing out one of several things i mentioned and saying that it alone is useful. there is a skill involved in deathcharging, and avoiding it, particularly because better teams tend to try to get 2 or more survivers off in 1 attack
however, the majority of maps are deficient in deathcharge opportunities (and some maps have chokepoints even better than the deathcharge), and the rest of what i said comes into play.

a solid attack in a 1-way or long backtrack route can lead to the survivers either losing one of their own or losing 10-20 seconds, allowing for another hit. a good hit in a chokepoint can easily lead to a 4-cap or a 3-cap with heavy damage.

a lot of the skill is that you need to do that RELIABLY, which is what i think you're missing. granted, some maps (hard rain 4) are short enough you are lucky if you get 3 hits in, but most give you plenty of opportunity to chip at the survivers. generally speaking, each gets 1 health kit, with 1 or 2 found in the level (excepting the gun shop, which i feel is frankly ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥). 2 or 3 3-caps with heavy damage will wipe a team, and 2 can certainly finish one surviver off

[Zora-Link]

you are pointing out one of several things i mentioned and saying that it alone is useful. there is a skill involved in deathcharging, and avoiding it, particularly because better teams tend to try to get 2 or more survivers off in 1 attack
however, the majority of maps are deficient in deathcharge opportunities (and some maps have chokepoints even better than the deathcharge), and the rest of what i said comes into play.

a solid attack in a 1-way or long backtrack route can lead to the survivers either losing one of their own or losing 10-20 seconds, allowing for another hit. a good hit in a chokepoint can easily lead to a 4-cap or a 3-cap with heavy damage.

a lot of the skill is that you need to do that RELIABLY, which is what i think you're missing. granted, some maps (hard rain 4) are short enough you are lucky if you get 3 hits in, but most give you plenty of opportunity to chip at the survivers. generally speaking, each gets 1 health kit, with 1 or 2 found in the level (excepting the gun shop, which i feel is frankly ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥). 2 or 3 3-caps with heavy damage will wipe a team, and 2 can certainly finish one surviver off

If you manage to incap 2-3 survivors every single attack, quite frankly I think you need to find some better survivors. I don't care how good you are at infected, there's nothing you can do beyond setting up the attack, the rest is up to the survivors' reactions to it. There is no reason an even halfway competent team should be incapped after a single attack.

Losing 10 seconds in vanilla also doesn't mean a whole lot, when your respawn timers are 30 seconds long.

And yes, I'm pointing out death charging, as that's the only reliable way to take out survivors in vanilla versus. Attacking my own personal skill without ever having played with me? Nice. I'm also still wondering why you keep tossing around the term 'quad cap' when the only way that's possible is to have 4 pinners. Sure, you can get 4 INCAPS if you manage to take down a low health survivor with a boomer or a spitter... but chances are that also means the survivors, again, weren't playing very well.

[HolisticCookie]

I saw it once on VS, we did a lot of damage, then... 99 all... FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU.

I don't think there's any foot lockers in vs mode. Maybe you're playing a mod server? (I could be wrong since the passing is so rarely played)

But I agree, the game has way too many med kits. One time, I got so bored I melee'd a hunter with a med kit to death (just so i could). Parish Map 2 I believe, at the 2 med kit spot after the gazebo.

[gatherto]

If you manage to incap 2-3 survivors every single attack, quite frankly I think you need to find some better survivors. I don't care how good you are at infected, there's nothing you can do beyond setting up the attack, the rest is up to the survivors' reactions to it. There is no reason an even halfway competent team should be incapped after a single attack.

Losing 10 seconds in vanilla also doesn't mean a whole lot, when your respawn timers are 30 seconds long.

And yes, I'm pointing out death charging, as that's the only reliable way to take out survivors in vanilla versus. Attacking my own personal skill without ever having played with me? Nice. I'm also still wondering why you keep tossing around the term 'quad cap' when the only way that's possible is to have 4 pinners. Sure, you can get 4 INCAPS if you manage to take down a low health survivor with a boomer or a spitter... but chances are that also means the survivors, again, weren't playing very well.

i'm not attacking your skill in any way. i know that you are very, very good at this game. i was questioning that you know the exact type of tactic needed for regular vs, as compared to the rvs which i'm sure you frequent.
yes, i use the term "quad cap" to mean incapping 4 survivers. the semantics between quad cap and quad incap are so similar that i feel i can be well understood either way
and i don't mean that you can incap 2-3 survivers regularly, i mean that you pin them and deliver a large amount of damage. after a few hits, this will become an incap, and forces the survivers to choose whether to heal earlier and have to eat whatever damage they take from then or risk a quad-incap (just so theres no possibility of misunderstanding)
it is very possible to get 2-3 pins in with bile or spit thrown in to make it interesting, and better teams can do this reliably. in stark contrast to l4d, very few l4d2 teams are skilled at dead-stopping, and almost nobody can reliably skeet when other SI are around wrecking their ♥♥♥♥ (read: charger, who is the leader of the attack 90% of the time, if available). with the exception of the jockey, whose advantage comes in time lost instead of health lost, most pinners deliver massive damage once they pin, and good timing (and the high health of charger/jockey compared to the l4d pinners) makes clearing take a fair bit of time.

[eargosedown]

Agreed, L4D2's VS NM plays so much better than L4D1 VS NM. Anyone remember the medkit spam of NM2 and NM3 in L4D1 VS? I'm glad those days are over.

No Mercy plays horrible in left 4 Dead 2. The maps were never designed for those infected teams, and it shows big time.

Better off with t2 and medkit spam and good gameplay in l4d1 than the l4d2 version of nm

[gatherto]

No Mercy plays horrible in left 4 Dead 2. The maps were never designed for those infected teams, and it shows big time.

Better off with t2 and medkit spam and good gameplay in l4d1 than the l4d2 version of nm

i would argue it plays differently, not necessarily better or worse, with 2 exceptions:
the final stretch in map 4 and the stairwell (especially the top) in the finale, right before you reach the roof. these spots allow deathcharges with no skill and no setup needed. in map 4, unless the survivers are VERY good, and so long as the SI are competent, someone will die. as for the finale, the typical idea of baiting the SI fails because jockeys can pin even if you're on a ladder, spitters destroy in the closed spaces, and there are 3 easy deathcharge opportunities that require taking fall damage to completely avoid

the rest, in my mind, makes up for it. spitters add a new dimension to the elevator event, which in l4d required no skill whatsoever to complete (so long as you know which area to camp). chargers and jockeys help the smoker and boomer out by forcing the survivers to backtrack no small amount of distance, and provide some scattering/seperation abilities which simply weren't present in l4d


edit: this post brings me up to 1992 posts, the year i was born ^_^

[Xalphin]

Stop playing noob versus and this becomes a non issue. You guys know that there are NO extra kits in realism versus, right? I mean, seriously, why not rail on about how easy campiagn mode is too easy while you're at it.

Thanks for the necro. DuckOfDerp

[gatherto]

Thanks for the necro. DuckOfDerp

this is SPUF. a week-old necro is NOTHING
i saw a thread that was necroed after FIVE MONTHS for a derp comment

[Kool Mode D]

No Mercy plays horrible in left 4 Dead 2. The maps were never designed for those infected teams, and it shows big time.

Better off with t2 and medkit spam and good gameplay in l4d1 than the l4d2 version of nm

Of course NM wasn't designed for the new SI because they weren't even in the game when L4D1 was released but the new SI are added to deal with the rampant and widely complained corner camping tactic make which makes L4D2's NM play so much better than it does in the inferior L4D1 NM.

[Bindal]

Of course NM wasn't designed for the new SI because they weren't even in the game when L4D1 was released but the new SI are added to deal with the rampant and widely complained corner camping tactic make which makes L4D2's NM play so much better than it does in the inferior L4D1 NM.
Sure, and the ten billion weapon-spawns, which got added, make it also soooo much harder for the survivors...

[SonikFan]

Then they pick themselves up from the floor, grab a spare medkit from the shelves right beside them, and continue on their merry way to the saferoom.

Actually...I can't remember many spots with spare medkits. I'm pretty sure only medkits that spawn 100% of the time (Dead Center 1, room after the elevator, Parish 2's gazebo, Dark Carnival 1 has this hole in a wall) are there. You guys exaggerate the amount of stuff the Survivors get in normal Versus way to much.

[prophecy holder]

Sure, and the ten billion weapon-spawns, which got added, make it also soooo much harder for the survivors...

Blame Valve for "casualizing" a competitive versus mode. Then further casualize it in L4D2 with the addition of defibs.

[Kool Mode D]

Sure, and the ten billion weapon-spawns, which got added, make it also soooo much harder for the survivors...

L4D2 NM is still harder than L4D1 NM with the new SI and no randomly spawned medkits or defibs (except the finale extra medkits).

[No_wander_off]

The spitter and the charger really play well in this version of No mercy, because those SI were designed to solve those issues in L4D1 (corner-campaign being the more obvious).

[Tyrant vs Tank]

What are the most wide open spots on this campaign?

Map 1 - open area before the Subway station
Map 2 - open area before the run to the safeoom
Map 3 - open area before the lift crescendo and the end spot before the safe
Map 4 - small area before the stairs going to the next set of stairs
Map 5 - sure its open but a bit congested

This was the perfect campaign for L4D2 vs.

Survivors can't just take a step back to survey with very little space amongst pretty much every map.

It just shows how much L4D2 campaigns were designed more with coop in mind than versus.

[No_wander_off]

What are the most wide open spots on this campaign?

Map 1 - open area before the Subway station
Map 2 - open area before the run to the safeoom
Map 3 - open area before the lift crescendo and the end spot before the safe
Map 4 - small area before the stairs going to the next set of stairs
Map 5 - sure its open but a bit congested

This was the perfect campaign for L4D2 vs.

Survivors can't just take a step back to survey with very little space amongst pretty much every map.

It just shows how much L4D2 campaigns were designed more with coop in mind than versus.

When No Mercy was under development, the Devs were focusing in the Versus gameplay, until they decided to separate the game into two major gamemodes: Versus and Co-op.

No Mercy shows that maps designed for Versus are prefect for any gamemode.

[source-maps]

It just shows how much L4D2 campaigns were designed more with coop in mind than versus.

true that, and that was a big mistake because versus re-playability is waay higher than coop

[Xalphin]

true that, and that was a big mistake because versus re-playability is waay higher than coop

BUT BUT VS IS TOO STRESSFUL!!!!

[soulripper]

i hate the parish 2 medkits near that alley and then at the trailer healtitems again

[Whazze]

i hate the parish 2 medkits near that alley and then at the trailer healtitems again

usually there's med pack sometimes 2 in the Humvee as soon as you leave the saferoom

[Xalphin]

usually there's med pack sometimes 2 in the Humvee as soon as you leave the saferoom

2 more in the truck before the event as well ;)