POV too low

[globalist]

Am I the only one who feels like I'm playing as a midget in the Ball?

The "standing" POV feels like I'm crouching, comparing the relative sizes of the environments vs. my character's body parts. And crouching feels like crawling really.

Is there any way to increase the POV along the Z axis?

Thanks!

[Fyrisvellir]

I felt that, too, but I got used to it. :)

[trek554]

I was about to come start a thread about the same thing. it appears as if I am walking on my knees in this game. lol

[Lauwie]

I experienced the same feeling, but only at the start of the first level. After that it was gone.

Then again, the zombies appear to be of the same height, and their height seems normal.

Maybe it is due to widescreen stretching?

[Krimzon]

I agree that you really only notice it on the first level and then sort of adjust or dont care. I thought it was funny that clay pots and fern leafs are bigger than i am though

[Hi2u! Tw1TcH]

Its an Unreal Tournament thing, UT2k4 and UT3 are the exact same way. Not sure about previous ones, never played those. Considering this was originaly a UT3 mod, they definitely kept the low POV. It makes you feel like a dwarf and personally I dislike it as well. If I'm not mistaken Gears of War is like this as well? (Never played that one either.)

[trek554]

I have Gears of War and UT 3 and it is nothing like this.

[Hourences]

It is not a low POV, it is a big world. That is also why UT2004 has it. Because of the huge jumps you could take in UT2004 the environments thus had to be far larger than what they should have been, resulting in making you feel small. We have the same thing going. The world is larger than usual because there must be enough space to move the ball around, plus the larger the world the smaller and more insignifcant the player will feel.

[Fyrisvellir]

But if that's the case, then all of the assets in the world seem disproportionate to the character.

[The Mayor v2]

You're actually one of the rugrats on one of your crazy imagination adventures.

[Hi2u! Tw1TcH]

It is not a low POV, it is a big world. That is also why UT2004 has it. Because of the huge jumps you could take in UT2004 the environments thus had to be far larger than what they should have been, resulting in making you feel small. We have the same thing going. The world is larger than usual because there must be enough space to move the ball around, plus the larger the world the smaller and more insignifcant the player will feel.

The eyesight/height relative to the ground is smaller than in most FPS games.

[Amander]

The eyesight/height relative to the ground is smaller than in most FPS games.How do you measure the eye height?

[Hi2u! Tw1TcH]

How do you measure the eye height?

Here's an analogy, one of the things that engineers do when they work on a project is alter the mathematical scale for easier calculations. Like, if they are working on a bridge they make the length of the bridge equal to 1.0. Even if the bridge is 532.43 meters across, its much easier to work with a starting point of something simple like 1.0. So, you can have any bridge in the world of any size, and for the ease of calculations, make the scale of it equal to 1.0.

That relates to the eye height in any FPS game in the world. We can say that it is 1.0, if for example we mean that 1.0 is a normal, non-low height (POV).

In each case you build according to that scale, according to that starting point. So, Hourences is not incorrect in saying that the world and eye height are of a normal, non-low height, he is relating the proportion of things. He then said that the effect of this scale that the world was built on gives an impression that you are smaller, because the world itself is so massive. This is undoubtedly true, the maps are impressively enormous.

I'm not contradicting what he is saying, its just that my comment is in relation to other FPS games and not the game world that he built. In much the same way that two bridges are of different lengths when compared to one another, as opposed to the same scale of 1.0 that each was originally built on.

The easiest way to tell is if you go and play Half-Life 2 for a couple hours, then come back and play The Ball again. You will feel like someone chopped your legs off at the knees. Or in terms of the bridges, one was much faster to traverse in a vehicle. The simplest way to see the difference is to look down and notice how much closer the floor is than in Half-Life 2. In normal human terms we feel like our POV has been lowered, which is why this thread exists. If you want to make more precise calculations you could compare screenshots of different games. Even with different engines it won't matter as each game will be a fully rendered 3D environment. Thats kind of overkill as its so obvious of a difference.

You can think of it also in terms of driving cars. You feel much lower to the ground if you were to be driving a Ferrari as opposed to driving a truck, or even a regular 4-door family car. It's easy to see the difference if your on the freeway in each and simply look down at the passing road.

I hope I answered your question, although I'm not sure if you were asking something rhetorical like, "How can you compare since each is a different engine?" Which I would have only answered with the comparison of Half-Life 2 and the "chopping of the knees" comment.

[Amander]

So in the end, it still just boils down to the world in The Ball look bigger. In real life, you take yourself as a reference point. If you would do the same in The Ball, you'll just see how the world is bigger, not you smaller.

[trek554]

So in the end, it still just boils down to the world in The Ball look bigger. In real life, you take yourself as a reference point. If you would do the same in The Ball, you'll just see how the world is bigger, not you smaller.its not that simple because the end result is wonky looking and feeling pov. also if you look side to side objects get abnormally large looking compared to being directly in front of you.

[Amander]

its not that simple because the end result is wonky looking and feeling pov. also if you look side to side objects get abnormally large looking compared to being directly in front of you.Didn't notice anything becoming larger when on the side. And still, I just take my personal height as a reference point.

[Hi2u! Tw1TcH]

So in the end, it still just boils down to the world in The Ball look bigger. In real life, you take yourself as a reference point. If you would do the same in The Ball, you'll just see how the world is bigger, not you smaller.

I wonder if you read my post. -_-

[Amander]

I wonder if you read my post. -_-You CAN'T measure your view height. It's just impossible, you can only use the external game objects as a reference which are really large in The Ball. Also, when standing on front of a mummy, you are about the same height and the mummies look like normal people. So in the end, the view height in The Ball is perfectly normal.

[Hi2u! Tw1TcH]

You CAN'T measure your view height. It's just impossible, you can only use the external game objects as a reference which are really large in The Ball. Also, when standing on front of a mummy, you are about the same height and the mummies look like normal people. So in the end, the view height in The Ball is perfectly normal.

So it was a rhetorical question.

Your opinion is subjective and you are entitled to it. But I don't think you would convince a jury of your peers.

[trek554]

Didn't notice anything becoming larger when on the side. And still, I just take my personal height as a reference point.you have to be completely oblivious then. when you turn to the side in this game you can clearly see objects being enlarged and warped a bit.

looking straight at the ball and it is normal size and round
http://postimage.org/image/11nn8irt0/

simply turn to the side and the ball gets larger and warped looking
http://postimage.org/image/11pj1k01w/

[globalist]

I guess the point of reference (of real world vs. the game world) is the hand holding the gadget/ballgun. Judging by the size and position of it in the game environment, the POV is too low.

It just doesn't fit and feel right.

[Hourences]

you have to be completely oblivious then. when you turn to the side in this game you can clearly see objects being enlarged and warped a bit.

looking straight at the ball and it is normal size and round
http://postimage.org/image/11nn8irt0/

simply turn to the side and the ball gets larger and warped looking
http://postimage.org/image/11pj1k01w/

That is the FOV impact, and normal for games. Try Quake or Unreal.

[Amander]

So it was a rhetorical question.

Your opinion is subjective and you are entitled to it. But I don't think you would convince a jury of your peers.Unless you might just pointing me to a leak in my argumentation, your opinion is subjective and you are entitled to it. But I don't think you would convince a jury of your peers.

[Hi2u! Tw1TcH]

Unless you might just pointing me to a leak in my argumentation...

Hmm.. ok. :>

You CAN'T measure your view height. It's just impossible, you can only use the external game objects as a reference which are really large in The Ball. Also, when standing on front of a mummy, you are about the same height and the mummies look like normal people. So in the end, the view height in The Ball is perfectly normal.

I'd say at first you have an obvious contradiction with the statement about not being able to measure your view height. From an intuitive, qualitative sense, we can simply look down at the floor and get a feeling of how far we are in terms of our view. You can do this in any game, and if one appears closer, then by the very defintion of the words, that POV is relatively of a lower value.

This is what people have posted about, the view is closer to the ground. Disregard everything else in the world even and just consider the ground. The ground is in fact closer to our POV then in other games. Refer back to the comment about driving cars of different heights in my previous post for how easy it is to see the difference of having different POVs.

Secondly, and this is where the contradiction comes in again, is that you state that it is possible to "use the external game objects as a reference" for the implied purpose of gaining a sense of height. That is the defintion of a measurement, which you stated was impossible. Furthermore, if it were not possible to have any measurement, you could not even state that it is of normal height, as the act of being a normal height is in fact a measurement.

I could think of a counter argument, that being if The Ball is of a normal height, then other games have extremely tall POVs. This would assert your claims of The Ball being normal, but it still doesn't account for the relative discrepancy. But I suppose thats just chewing up semantical nonsense for its own sake.

Less argumentatively, I will simply acknolwedge that I find it difficult to believe someone cannot tell the difference between The Balls POV and another game like Half-Life 2.

So, I would like for you to take up an argument that considers the qualitative difference of an assumed POV between The Ball and another game like Half-Life 2, especially in regards to the ground. Also, if you could clarify your assumptions about height measurement and in the process illustrate what I assume you will consider a mis-interpretation of a contradiction on my part, then I would be satisfied.

Perhaps just send me a PM as I sense a bit of tension with your capslock and assertion without actual facts for argument.

[Amander]

Ok, what reference points do you have except your own height or the environment? My definition of measurement was "You can tell for sure". You can not tell for sure though as you only have the environment as a reference point. So a bigger environment just makes you feel smaller, nothing else.

[trek554]

Ok, what reference points do you have except your own height or the environment? My definition of measurement was "You can tell for sure". You can not tell for sure though as you only have the environment as a reference point. So a bigger environment just makes you feel smaller, nothing else.this coming from the person who did not even notice the fisheye effect when looking to the side. :rolleyes:

[Amander]

this coming from the person who did not even notice the fisheye effect when looking to the side. :rolleyes:So, do you have other height reference points or not?

[Hi2u! Tw1TcH]

So, do you have other height reference points or not?

The main argument in regards to the height reference is the ground. It's closer to your POV, simply look down and it appears closer, which is a clear defintion of a lower POV. An assertion stating height cannot be measured is not an argument refuting these basic facts. Addressing the ground as the main height reference is key.

It is easy to confuse proportional height for normal height. The mummies, player character, and environment are proportionally normal to one another. A relatively normal proportion, however, does not mean a normal height. I tried to address this in an earlier post in regards to using unified scales for buildings. Dividing 9 and 3 by 3 gives you 3 and 1 respectively. Each series are still of the same proportions, yet the first numbers are 3 times larger than the second numbers. 9 is still larger than 3 and 3 is still larger than 1.

I guess I could have just not typed anything except the following: The Ball is proportionally normal, but of smaller proportions to other games. The ground is closer, hence the POV is lower. Gordon Freeman is to the The Ball what Kareem Abdul Jabaar is to Spud Webb.

[Amander]

Appears closer due to what? Once again, you don't have a ruler in this game. I mean no standard ruler, there are still external reference points like the size of the environmental objects, maybe the size of the floor texture, whatsoever. How exactly do you measure the view height? Can you just tell how you measure the view height? What do you take as your standard ruler?

[Hi2u! Tw1TcH]

Appears closer due to what?

By using your eyesight. It is a qualitative statement. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCIQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.answers.com%2FQ%2FWhat_are_q ualitative_observations&ei=ofg0TZPZDoy8sQOjofzSBQ&usg=AFQjCNH0KPCpWDkQwbrDQjG8Dqja5dGaag

Once again, you don't have a ruler in this game. I mean no standard ruler, there are still external reference points like the size of the environmental objects, maybe the size of the floor texture, whatsoever.

This game engine, as well as something like Source and almost every modern game engine, have in-game unit measurements. Everything is measured, in fact there are also in-game velocity measurements.

The rest of your statement constitutes grasping at straws and I sense a severe note of desperation in your text in your desire to be correct.

Please take note of this, I have clearly explained everything. Either you have not read anything I've posted, read it and did not understand it, or have read it and are simply trolling at this point.

I'm leaning towards you not understanding anything I've posted as you have simply skipped out on answering every single question I have asked you. Meanwhile I have politely answered everything you have asked and you simply return by asking more rhetorical questions.

I can only suggest, that if you still believe that you are undoubtedly correct, then print out this thread and take it to a professor, or perhaps a friend of yours who is a college graduate. They can help explain it for you.

Otherwise, if you insist on responding with more rhetorical questions, without any substantial reasoning behind it mind you, and not bothering to give weight to my questions by not answering a single one of them, then I see no point in continuing this discussion.

[Hi2u! Tw1TcH]

I should add an actual mathematical means of measuring the difference of the POV between The Ball and any other FPS game.

Measure the difference of arc length from a 90 degree change from horizontal to vertical view. You'll find The Balls to be shorter then something like Half-Life 2.

Thats a pretty basic geometric proof, first understood in about 7th grade Geometry, even though arc lengths typically aren't discussed until high school trig.

Unless Euclid was a liar and pi is exactly 3?

[Hourences]

You people go way too deep into this. The surroundings are simply larger than usual :)

[Amander]

The surroundings are simply larger than usual :)That's what I am seeing all the time.

[Hi2u! Tw1TcH]

You people go way too deep into this. The surroundings are simply larger than usual :)

And the POV is simply lower than usual. :)

[Amander]

Except that the surroundings are the only way to tell your own height.

[Hi2u! Tw1TcH]

Except that the surroundings are the only way to tell your own height.

Except for using in-game unit measurements and computing arc length in terms of time, which is mathematically irrefutable.

[Hourences]

We actually raised the POV height coming from the standard Unreal Engine settings, in an effort to reduce the impact the scale of the world has on your perspective. We could not raise it more because then it would be above the player's collision (thus if you'd jump your camera would clip through ceiling).

[Amander]

Except for using in-game unit measurements and computing arc length in terms of time, which is mathematically irrefutable.Except that the in-game units are what are scaled up with the rest so it still comes down to the game just being big.

[Hi2u! Tw1TcH]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

[Amander]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.Dude, even the developer said that the POV is actually higher and not lower. Are you really serious about being right?

[Hi2u! Tw1TcH]

Dude, even the developer said that the POV is actually higher and not lower. Are you really serious about being right?

He said its higher than UT3, not normal like in something like HL2, its not the same thing. I think Hourences is secretly enjoying this and trying to add fuel to the fire. :D

The math prooving its lower is 100% correct. I am not right or wrong, just explaining how it is, this is fact. If Hourences is a coder than he took enough math courses to know this is true also.

[Amander]

He said its higher than UT3, not normal like in something like HL2, its not the same thing. I think Hourences is secretly enjoying this and trying to add fuel to the fire. :D

The math prooving its lower is 100% correct. I am not right or wrong, just explaining how it is, this is fact. If Hourences is a coder than he took enough math courses to know this is true also.The POV in UT3 isn't low either. As for the math being correct, can you name a formula which doesn't need a length to measure a lengh? The classical ruler uses a defined standard length. Any sort of angle calculation needs a lengh to calculate nother length. Otherwise, you'll end up with only proportions, not proper values. Ok, you can also use time of movement or acceleration to calculate a length. But velocity and acceleration also rely on a defined lengh. Dude, forget it. There's no single way in world to measure a lengh without using another lengh as a standard. All you can measure are proportions and the POV in The Ball is proportionally lower than in other games. However, it's the same as the environment is proportionally larger than in other games.
As for me, we can agree to the POV being subjectively lower. Blame it on the bigger environments (so take the environment as your standard ruler) or blame it on the fish-eye-effect (which, BTW, didn't have an impact on me at all, maybe it's all about aspect ratio), we can agree on that.

[Amander]

He said its higher than UT3, not normal like in something like HL2, its not the same thing. I think Hourences is secretly enjoying this and trying to add fuel to the fire. :D

The math prooving its lower is 100% correct. I am not right or wrong, just explaining how it is, this is fact. If Hourences is a coder than he took enough math courses to know this is true also.The POV in UT3 isn't low either. As for the math being correct, can you name a formula which doesn't need a length to measure a lengh? The classical ruler uses a defined standard length. Any sort of angle calculation needs a lengh to calculate nother length. Otherwise, you'll end up with only proportions, not proper values. Ok, you can also use time of movement or acceleration to calculate a length. But velocity and acceleration also rely on a defined lengh. Dude, forget it. There's no single way in world to measure a lengh without using another lengh as a standard. All you can measure are proportions and the POV in The Ball is proportionally lower than in other games. However, it's the same as the environment is proportionally larger than in other games.
As for me, we can agree to the POV being subjectively lower. Blame it on the bigger environments (so take the environment as your standard ruler) or blame it on the fish-eye-effect (which, BTW, didn't have an impact on me at all, maybe it's all about aspect ratio), we can agree on that.

Don't get me wrong. If you'd prove me wrong I'd be happy as that'd mean that I've learned something entirely new. So give me a formula which defines a length without relying on another lengh or things which are derived from a lengh (such as velocity). Just a plain simple formula like h=...