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USSVagrant
01-28-2011, 12:45 PM
Hi guys, I know that there are frequent complaints against versus balancing, but I want to take a moment to address the other side of the spectrum -- campaign. While I take time to play versus and feel there are some issues that should be addressed, every update to playbalance versus seems to harm campaign.

For a while it has felt like the devs have completely ignored the balance of campaign, especially on higher difficulty settings. Realism is particularly broken in this regard.

First thing I would suggest in this regard: Make campaign and versus operate on different rulesets, period. If a balance change is intended for versus, it should not affect campaign and vice versa.

Second is weapon damage balance. On easy/normal difficulties, it's hard to notice. Most of the weapons seem balanced on these difficulties. But on expert, the differences become painfully obvious. Allow me to explain:

The Desert Eagle: This famous little gun becomes incredibly overpowered at higher difficulties. 1-shot instakills to common infected. This becomes even more apparent in realism, where it is the only weapon that can 1-hit kill a common infected with a body shot. It also happens to have infinite ammo and really good accuracy. This makes it even more powerful than a sniper rifle on realism. That makes zero sense.

Recommendations: Reduce the power of the desert eagle in some form. I'd recommend reducing the accuracy on it, because it can function as a sniper rifle by crouching with it, despite it only being a hand gun. It's also possible to make it damage the player using it when fired (firing a real desert eagle hurts)

The auto-shotguns: At lower difficulties, these function perfectly. At higher difficulties, however, they have very little stopping power (except at near-point-blank range). Their spread is very wide. Then, to top off the difficulty, these are perfect team-killing machines. You can down an ally at full health in one shot. This is aggravated with some of the clipping issues.

Recommendations: Up the stopping power or narrow the spread on the shells.

The pump shotgun: Works as intended. Recommendation: nothing.

The chrome shotgun: A bizarre thing emerges at higher difficulty settings -- the chrome shotgun is more powerful than the auto-shotguns in almost every aspect except for ammo capacity. The spread on the chrome shotgun is so tight that you can functionally snipe with it, making it a very useful shotgun. You can kill more enemies at a distance with it than you can with the automatic shotguns, making it surprisingly useful.

Recommendation: Up the max ammo. Seriously.

The m16 (aka rifle): This guy has a nice fire rate at all difficulties and pretty good stopping power at lower difficulties. Problem is, at higher difficulties, its stopping power for common infected is a joke compared to the ak47 or the SCAR (aka desert rifle). Surprisingly though, it can level special infected quite effectively.

Recommendation: Up the power for commons.

SCAR (Aka: Desert rifle): Works as intended. My only complaint is that by default it sounds like a pop gun. UGH.

Recommendation: Change the sound to something less stupid.

Ak-47: Works as intended. Effective room clearer without being too overpowered. Recommendation: None.

M14 and G3 (aka the sniper rifles): These need some serious reworking. For one, running and shooting with a sniper rifle is highly inaccurate. L4D1 emphasized this by how huge the spread got while running with it. But now in Expert (non-realism) these things are machines of death. Infinite penetration, high accuracy (even while running) and one-hit kills. In addition, there is no reason at all to not pick up a G3 (military sniper) over an M14 (hunting rifle). These two guns need some kind of difference to make the m14 worth picking up.

Recommendation (for normal campaign): Reduce their accuracy whilst running. It's just... disturbing.

In realism, however, these become completely underpowered when compared to the desert eagle. A .308 sniper round will seriously incapacitate if not kill somebody in real life due to their power. They should have one-hit kills with them reenabled in realism but their accuracy somewhat lessened (let's face it, the survivors are not weapons masters).

Recommendation for realism: Enable one hit kills, but seriously reduce their accuracy (particularly whilst running).

Third is special infected balance. I like that the tank takes increased damage on expert. I like that everything is harder to kill on higher difficulties.

The problem arises due to animation bugs. Valve for some reason decided that a charger can still swing immediately after stumbling from a wall hit. While I understand the reasoning (expert mode), it doesn't make sense from animation standpoint. The charger starts swinging (assuming you're next to him, stumbling as well), despite facing the wrong direction. You get punched to oblivion before you're done stumbling, even though the charger is stumbling too. It's like the charger's ♥♥♥ knows how to punch.

Recommendation: Remove the stumbling effect on higher difficulties to make this difference a little less stupid.

This problem also shows up when dead-stopping a hunter or a jockey. Usually they can instantaneously scratch you the second you stop them. On lower difficulties this isn't a big deal, but when they scratch you for 20/40 health on expert, it's a problem.

Recommendation: I'm not sure how this would be fixed. Probably an issue with the AI.

The charger also has another issue. My expert friends and I have taken to calling him "Punchy" because on expert he actually punches far more than he charges. And his punches really hurt on expert. Since his AI will predictably punch rather than charge at point blank, it's typically safer to run up next to him than run away.

Recommendation: Change his AI to allow him to charge a survivor at melee distance. This would be far more reasonable than his punching tendencies.

The boomer is a touchy issue. He should have low health and move slow, as well as have a large hitbox. The problem is that his AI treats him almost like any other infected. This makes him an easy target on expert mode where most players can locate him simply through sound. His AI makes him walk through wide open spaces in front of the survivors where no human player would dare go with the boomer in versus.

Recommendation: His AI needs reworking to make him more careful about where he spawns, where he walks, and where he waits. Alternatively, just make him move faster or have more health.

Fourth, and finally, are the common infected. Yup, everybody's favorite weird-sounding pale grey guys. Normally I have few complaints with these guys, but a couple issues stand out with them.

First and foremost is the combination of two things: Pathing and AI. There are numerous pathing issues with the common infected that need to be corrected. Don't get me started on the number of "jesus tables" or "jesus spots." There are also ways that zombies will get stuck and meleeing has no effect on them (like stuck under a table). These are flat-out bugs that need to be fixed.

However, if you combine pathing issues with known routines for the AI, they become exploits. One of the most obvious AI routines is that they target the person who is farthest ahead if they have no previous target. This means that the person who is farthest ahead merely has to find a "jesus spot" when the horde shows up, and chill out there until he or his teammates murder the horde.

Another AI routine that is problematic is that once the common infected has a target, it cannot change targets. This becomes an easy exploit with boomer bile, where you can intentionally summon a horde. If you throw a boomer bile right outside the saferoom door and leave one person inside the safe room looking at them, the rest of the group can easily run ahead with no common infected hindering them (due to the limit on common infected being on the map at any given point). Then, once they reach the next saferoom, the first survivor kills them all, lets all the common infected target the farthest ahead person (who happens to be in the next safe room) and it's an easy walk to the saferoom for them. Talk about exploits.

Recommendation: Honestly? Requires rewriting the AI director to be a bit more intelligent.

Second most obvious issue with common infected is animations and hitboxes. This isn't a huge issue on lower difficulties where a swing only means a few points of health lost. It's a problem on expert when a single swing can mean 10 or 20 health lost. Usually when common infected are performing an animation (such as falling or climbing), their hitbox stops corresponding to where they appear to be on the screen. This means the player will often miss the infected while these animations are running because they have no clue where the hitbox is. This makes a huge difference when every swing from a common is risky business.

Recommendation: Make the hitboxes correspond with animations.

Third issue lies with the uncommon infected. The two I'm thinking of happen to be construction workers and riot cops.

Construction workers ignore bile and pipe bombs for no reason that is made apparent (apparently they're supposed to have ear plugs?). This doesn't make logical sense and it screws players over who throw bile or a pipebomb due to desperation.

Recommendation: Change construction workers to be immune to headshots (hard hats are obvious).

Riot cops make little sense and are a major pain in the ♥♥♥ on high difficulty settings. When there are 3 or 4 of them on an individual survivor, you can guarantee that survivor will die without assistance. Hitting their back-side is often buggy and frustrating.

Recommendation: There's actually a neat little mod that my friends and I installed on our server that compensates for this issue. It's called "mighty stomp foot (http://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?p=1185478)." It allows you to walk over zombies that you've knocked to the ground, thus killing them. This is an incredibly useful and simple way of handling riot cops without being unbalanced (you can't walk over an entire horde as it is extremely unlikely all will fall to the ground).

That is all. Let the flame war begin.

Strong I
01-28-2011, 01:37 PM
Half of these aren't balance fixes, there picky things like animation and sounds.

No_wander_off
01-28-2011, 01:40 PM
I agree with some of the issues you have mentioned (specially with the desert eagle), but don't expect changes happening any time soon.

bloodfox1222
01-28-2011, 03:30 PM
You say balancing but this sounds more like one of those "OMG THE SURVIRS R OP NRF THM IN CAMPGN"

Coming up next
"Valve. I want you to nerf gordon freeman. he is to powerful in half life 2"

Buick72
01-28-2011, 03:45 PM
You say balancing but this sounds more like one of those "OMG THE SURVIRS R OP NRF THM IN CAMPGN"

Coming up next
"Valve. I want you to nerf gordon freeman. he is to powerful in half life 2"

He's not talking about nerfing survivors. He's talking about animation bugs and things that don't translate well into Expert. Like balancing some weapons so they are more useful or modifying some so they make more sense.

That and keeping VS and Co-op separate when it comes to changing some things when the game is patched. Like, buffed jockey damage, etc being put on co-op doesn't translate well at all on expert. The jockey doesn't get you 5 feet before you're incapped. So, his job of taking you from the team doesn't work, he's just a hunter that falls off of you when he incapps you..

Also. The stumble times when SI are shoved is shorter on expert, but the animation time is the same as normal, so while they are stumbling, they scratch/punch without doing the animation. Or pounce a split second after being meleed while still stumbling. Not to mention, the survivor stumble times stay the same, so the stumbling charger can punch you three times, doing 60 dmg before you're even done stumbling.

He's just pointing out a few minor issues, not crying like 75% of all the threads about vs balance. These are not game breaking issues, they are just annoyances. I agree with a lot of them, but I also don;t see any of them being fixed or changed any time soon.

source-maps
01-28-2011, 03:48 PM
Campaign is fine, to me it feels like l4d2 was designed around that mode

Rusty_S85
01-28-2011, 04:02 PM
Honestly I had to stop when I got to the M-16 bit. The M-16 not doing as much damage as the AK-47 at higher levels or realistic levels is actually correct. The M-16 uses a small 5.56mm or .223 caliber round where as the AK-47 uses the larger 7.62x39mm round. The AK-47 is going to pack more punch than the M-16 in real life, the M-16`s advantage is being more accurate where the AK-47 sprays more if you dont use controlled bursts.

So wanting to upgrade the M16 on harder levels to AK-47 status is in my opinion crazy to do because they fire two different rounds and dont have the same punch.

Now if your saying the M16 does too much damage in expert then I say lower the damage of the M16 on expert. Raising the health of the common infected will make the AK-47 not as effective even though it can wreck havoc on a concrete wall chewing it up where a M-16 can only put nice little holes in the same wall.

Buick72
01-28-2011, 04:45 PM
Honestly I had to stop when I got to the M-16 bit. The M-16 not doing as much damage as the AK-47 at higher levels or realistic levels is actually correct. The M-16 uses a small 5.56mm or .223 caliber round where as the AK-47 uses the larger 7.62x39mm round. The AK-47 is going to pack more punch than the M-16 in real life, the M-16`s advantage is being more accurate where the AK-47 sprays more if you dont use controlled bursts.

So wanting to upgrade the M16 on harder levels to AK-47 status is in my opinion crazy to do because they fire two different rounds and dont have the same punch.

Now if your saying the M16 does too much damage in expert then I say lower the damage of the M16 on expert. Raising the health of the common infected will make the AK-47 not as effective even though it can wreck havoc on a concrete wall chewing it up where a M-16 can only put nice little holes in the same wall.

Well, yeah but your argument is based on real life statistics not gameplay. I think he's just trying to find a way to make the m16 more useful on higher difficulties. I like it, you just have to aim for the head, where as the ak you don't really.

No_wander_off
01-28-2011, 04:55 PM
Campaign is fine, to me it feels like l4d2 was designed around that mode

don't be like that, you know how it sucks when someone says to you "The game is fine".

prophecy holder
01-28-2011, 05:10 PM
Usually when someone says "X and x is fine, you just need to L2P", then you instanlty are not taken seriously.

Honestly now, when most people say anything is fine they usually end up quitting the game in a couple weeks anyways.

Rusty_S85
01-28-2011, 05:27 PM
Well, yeah but your argument is based on real life statistics not gameplay. I think he's just trying to find a way to make the m16 more useful on higher difficulties. I like it, you just have to aim for the head, where as the ak you don't really.

I can understand that, but why make the M16 more useful in Real VS which is supposed to be more realistic? I would think people would want the weapons to do damage more like they would in real life.

I dont know all I know is I use the M16 or the AK-47. Personally the AK-47 is better for large groups cause all shots will chew the zombies up, the M16 is more of a precision weapon requiring well placed shots. Only thing with the AK-47 in game is just like real life you have to stay calm and dont go full auto spray and pray cause the AK-47 just cant hit the broad side of a barn with full auto spray. Its sort of like the silenced "Uzi" machine pistol. I love that weapon even though it doesnt do as much damage as the AK or the M16, for me it is a very good weapon to just kneel down and blast the zombies as they rush in as a hoard in controlled bursts. Ive been known to wipe out the majority of zombie hoards by doing this in co-op.

I was kind of upset about all the scoped rifles, dont see the point in having scoped rifles if your battling it out inside the hospital for instance. Personally I would love to see an addition to the weapons and would fully support Valve in putting in the one rifle known to be the zombie survival weapon of choice, the M91 or M91/30. Yes their a bolt action and only hold five shots at a time but with clips the rifle can put off 30 rounds in a min and each shot is well placed and packs more punch than the AK-47 round. Same caliber but more powder with a longer barrel = more muzzle velocity.

In the end for me personally if I play real vs I would expect the AK to do more damage than the M16 but be shooting all over where the M16 does less damage but is more of a tack driver. Sure you might not use the M16 much but how often would a person use a scoped rifle in the hospital but yet it still spawns in vs. I very seldom see it used.

Buick72
01-28-2011, 06:07 PM
True, it also depends on what mode you are playing. I like the m16, and I think it has it's uses. It's great against the tank and SI in general due to accuracy, and high rate of fire. It can still be useful against commons if you aim for the head/neck area. Once you get accurate with it it is still on par with the Ak as you can maintain accurate fire at head level.

As far as the m91/30 Mosin I wish the game had one for a t1 sniper. I used to own a few, as well as a Russian AK and a Siaga. I miss them all.

USSVagrant
01-28-2011, 06:37 PM
Half of these aren't balance fixes, there picky things like animation and sounds.

In case you didn't notice...

Animations are only a problem when they don't match up with what's actually going on in a game. It's very frustrating when a charger is stumbling (and you are too) and you lose 60 health while you're still stumbling because somehow he's punching you while stumbling. It simply doesn't add up.

The only time I had a complaint about sound was the SCAR, and that's just a minor annoyance.

You say balancing but this sounds more like one of those "OMG THE SURVIRS R OP NRF THM IN CAMPGN"


Actually, no. I'm suggesting balance changes in a lot of areas to increase the power of the survivors, and in others to increase the power of the infected.

Honestly I had to stop when I got to the M-16 bit. The M-16 not doing as much damage as the AK-47 at higher levels or realistic levels is actually correct. The M-16 uses a small 5.56mm or .223 caliber round where as the AK-47 uses the larger 7.62x39mm round. The AK-47 is going to pack more punch than the M-16 in real life, the M-16`s advantage is being more accurate where the AK-47 sprays more if you dont use controlled bursts.

So wanting to upgrade the M16 on harder levels to AK-47 status is in my opinion crazy to do because they fire two different rounds and dont have the same punch.

You are correct sir in that each ak47 round will pack more of a wallop in real life than an m16 round. M16 rounds have the advantage of tumbling through the target though.

What I'm trying to focus on with the m16 is that it's very much underpowered on expert. Putting 10 rounds into a zombie compared to 3 or 4 from an ak47 or a SCAR really just sucks all the bullets out of you with no benefit. This is a balance not intended to reflect real life, but improve gameplay.

I can understand that, but why make the M16 more useful in Real VS which is supposed to be more realistic? I would think people would want the weapons to do damage more like they would in real life.

This is why I recommend having two separate rulesets for versus and campaign (or possibly four for realism). One change in campaign shouldn't reflect on versus, and vice versa.

Rusty_S85
01-28-2011, 06:55 PM
True, it also depends on what mode you are playing. I like the m16, and I think it has it's uses. It's great against the tank and SI in general due to accuracy, and high rate of fire. It can still be useful against commons if you aim for the head/neck area. Once you get accurate with it it is still on par with the Ak as you can maintain accurate fire at head level.

As far as the m91/30 Mosin I wish the game had one for a t1 sniper. I used to own a few, as well as a Russian AK and a Siaga. I miss them all.

I wouldnt mind seeing a sniper version if the scope was the correct 4x zoom. I havent tried the sniper rifles in here but I hate them in counter strike cause you click for the scope and you have like 7 different zoom levels. I hate that I want to be able to click to bring the scope up use the gun and click again so i can see what im doing not click 6 times real fast to cycle through the scopes.

I would like to see the plain iron sight model. But as far as in real life, I only got a Tula made 1939 91/30, would like to get a sniper version but those real ones are around $800 - $900 where the aftermarket converted sniper rifles with surplus russian parts can be had for less.

In case you didn't notice...

Animations are only a problem when they don't match up with what's actually going on in a game. It's very frustrating when a charger is stumbling (and you are too) and you lose 60 health while you're still stumbling because somehow he's punching you while stumbling. It simply doesn't add up.

The only time I had a complaint about sound was the SCAR, and that's just a minor annoyance.



Actually, no. I'm suggesting balance changes in a lot of areas to increase the power of the survivors, and in others to increase the power of the infected.



You are correct sir in that each ak47 round will pack more of a wallop in real life than an m16 round. M16 rounds have the advantage of tumbling through the target though.

What I'm trying to focus on with the m16 is that it's very much underpowered on expert. Putting 10 rounds into a zombie compared to 3 or 4 from an ak47 or a SCAR really just sucks all the bullets out of you with no benefit. This is a balance not intended to reflect real life, but improve gameplay.



This is why I recommend having two separate rulesets for versus and campaign (or possibly four for realism). One change in campaign shouldn't reflect on versus, and vice versa.

True the round tumbles more, but the round also loses its punch sooner so the M16 is more of a close range weapon. I could see making the M16 alittle more powerful but not as powerful as the Ak47.

Like wise if you cant kill a zombie in real vs or co-op with a single shot to the head reguardless the weapon well then it doesnt keep with traditional zombie lore which is you have to shoot them in the head to kill them.

The normal vs I played it worked pretty good quick burst would kill common infected but the SI and the uncommon ones such as the police zombies of The Parish was accurate as well. The M16 just didnt do a thing for punching through that armor.

I hold the firm belief that its not "combat" until you have limited supplies and unlimited supplies of enemies. In this case you can easily blow through all your ammo and be left with nothing but your pistol fighting these zombies.

Capolan
01-28-2011, 07:19 PM
Honestly I had to stop when I got to the M-16 bit. The M-16 not doing as much damage as the AK-47 at higher levels or realistic levels is actually correct. The M-16 uses a small 5.56mm or .223 caliber round where as the AK-47 uses the larger 7.62x39mm round. The AK-47 is going to pack more punch than the M-16 in real life, the M-16`s advantage is being more accurate where the AK-47 sprays more if you dont use controlled bursts.

So wanting to upgrade the M16 on harder levels to AK-47 status is in my opinion crazy to do because they fire two different rounds and dont have the same punch.

Now if your saying the M16 does too much damage in expert then I say lower the damage of the M16 on expert. Raising the health of the common infected will make the AK-47 not as effective even though it can wreck havoc on a concrete wall chewing it up where a M-16 can only put nice little holes in the same wall.


Nope. He's saying the same thing I say -- on expert the M16 is a worthless weapon for the common infected. I get your injection of realism here, but this is a game. A game that very clearly Valve didn't test often on higher difficulty levels. I also understand your point, however the weapon is a fraction of what it should be, and isn't effective when the game gets tough.

My feelings are STRICTLY specific to campaign mode. at 1200 hours and 300,000 killed I feel i can safely speculate on the balance of this mode.

Capolan
01-28-2011, 07:25 PM
You say balancing but this sounds more like one of those "OMG THE SURVIRS R OP NRF THM IN CAMPGN"

Coming up next
"Valve. I want you to nerf gordon freeman. he is to powerful in half life 2"

shut it. That's not what is being said here. I know this player very well, and he's an admin on my server and this guy knows what he is doing. before jumping to say how wrong he is - read what he has to say and realize he's not saying this crap to complain per se, his critiques have validity.

Buick72
01-28-2011, 07:34 PM
Ok, all the gun facts in the world wont make the gun any more balanced for expert. To be honest, real life has no place in the game. This is not a tactical shooter, and none of the guns are portrayed realistically in this game.

Now, yes I said I like the m16 in the game, but only because using it adds a challenge to playing expert. I try to use underpowered weapons to make the game harder, because after 900+ hours, there really isn't a challenge. Unless you aim for head shots non stop, the m16 is nowhere near as useful as the Scar or AK. Not to mention it's inability to even keep up with a hunting rifle in the hands of a decent player.

I honestly don't know how to remedy this, aside from giving it a higher ammo capacity (max ammo count, not magazine size) Or a slight damage increase, or perhaps taking away some of the damage resistance the ci/si have against it.

VenomPB
01-28-2011, 08:04 PM
In addition, there is no reason at all to not pick up a G3 (military sniper) over an M14 (hunting rifle). These two guns need some kind of difference to make the m14 worth picking up.

Actually, as far as I can tell the hunting rifle is more accurate than the military sniper when running with either, making the hunting rifle more preferable if you tend to no-scope more. It's not a huge crosshair difference but it's there.

john_volkov
01-28-2011, 09:33 PM
if you want to balance the desert eagle in realism make it hard to find , like only 1 desert eagle on a campanig, single pick up.
As for M16 on realism you need good accuracy for it, I get beter accuracy with the uzi on realism then the M16 but that's just me, but still the M16 it's an ok weapon on realism as well if you play for headshots.

Rusty_S85
01-28-2011, 10:20 PM
Nope. He's saying the same thing I say -- on expert the M16 is a worthless weapon for the common infected. I get your injection of realism here, but this is a game. A game that very clearly Valve didn't test often on higher difficulty levels. I also understand your point, however the weapon is a fraction of what it should be, and isn't effective when the game gets tough.

My feelings are STRICTLY specific to campaign mode. at 1200 hours and 300,000 killed I feel i can safely speculate on the balance of this mode.

I honestly didnt noticed a difference the one time I did play expert co-op and used the M16. But maybe I didnt play it enough to notice but if its less powerful than normal then it needs to be beefed up to the same power as normal is.

If they want to make it harder limit the amount of ammo you carry for real co-op or vs.

It was alittle hard to tell cause he was talking about making the zombies with more health I thought so I am still understanding what is being said. Saying the gun is weaker than normal mode then sure beef that sucker back up. If want to make it harder for real dont weaken the gun but give you less ammo.

Rusty_S85
01-28-2011, 10:26 PM
Ok, all the gun facts in the world wont make the gun any more balanced for expert. To be honest, real life has no place in the game. This is not a tactical shooter, and none of the guns are portrayed realistically in this game.

Now, yes I said I like the m16 in the game, but only because using it adds a challenge to playing expert. I try to use underpowered weapons to make the game harder, because after 900+ hours, there really isn't a challenge. Unless you aim for head shots non stop, the m16 is nowhere near as useful as the Scar or AK. Not to mention it's inability to even keep up with a hunting rifle in the hands of a decent player.

I honestly don't know how to remedy this, aside from giving it a higher ammo capacity (max ammo count, not magazine size) Or a slight damage increase, or perhaps taking away some of the damage resistance the ci/si have against it.

no one is talking about making the game like real life. If so you wouldnt be able to kill a zombie because of the simple question is, how do you kill something that is already dead. Zombies are in fact the living dead which is basically a oxymoron in of itself.

The only point I put forth is though is the M16 shouldnt be as powerful as the Ak47 is in game. They dont use the same round so to do that would basically make the game too easy. Every time Ive played co-op or vs its either the AK47 or the M16. I have yet to see both spawn at the same time in the safe room. I personally think the way it is set up power wise in normal is ideal. If expert or real modes dont have the same power as normal I say boost it up to it. But to make the M16 as powerful as the AK47 would mean no one would use the Ak because the M16 is way more accurate which its only accurate because of the small round it uses.

In my situation the AK and M16 has their uses. In the hospital the M16 is better due to its accuracy. The AK while more powerful sprays too much so its harder to hit what your aiming at especially if its a hoard coming down a hallway the M16 would mow the hoard down. The AK if your shooting outside at longer ranges is better in short bursts but if a hoard is right ontop of you then the AK does work but the M16 is better.

Zora-Link
01-28-2011, 10:32 PM
The auto-shotguns: At lower difficulties, these function perfectly. At higher difficulties, however, they have very little stopping power (except at near-point-blank range). Their spread is very wide. Then, to top off the difficulty, these are perfect team-killing machines. You can down an ally at full health in one shot. This is aggravated with some of the clipping issues.

Recommendations: Up the stopping power or narrow the spread on the shells.


They work fine for me! Make autoshotties any more powerful and you risk making them overpowered.


The chrome shotgun: A bizarre thing emerges at higher difficulty settings -- the chrome shotgun is more powerful than the auto-shotguns in almost every aspect except for ammo capacity. The spread on the chrome shotgun is so tight that you can functionally snipe with it, making it a very useful shotgun. You can kill more enemies at a distance with it than you can with the automatic shotguns, making it surprisingly useful.

Recommendation: Up the max ammo. Seriously.

It's a T1 Shotgun, just like the pump. Upping the ammo for one means upping the ammo for the other. And Valve doesn't want to encourage holding onto T1 anymore than you have to, so upping their ammo would be counterintuitive.

In addition, there is no reason at all to not pick up a G3 (military sniper) over an M14 (hunting rifle). These two guns need some kind of difference to make the m14 worth picking up.

Someone doesn't use sniper rifles :)


Recommendation for realism: Enable one hit kills

Please.

Construction workers ignore bile and pipe bombs for no reason that is made apparent (apparently they're supposed to have ear plugs?). This doesn't make logical sense and it screws players over who throw bile or a pipebomb due to desperation.

Recommendation: Change construction workers to be immune to headshots (hard hats are obvious).

Plastic hard hats block bullets now? Awesome! And no thanks. The whole point of them IS to screw people over who rely on the pipe/bile bomb.


Riot cops make little sense and are a major pain in the ♥♥♥ on high difficulty settings. When there are 3 or 4 of them on an individual survivor, you can guarantee that survivor will die without assistance. Hitting their back-side is often buggy and frustrating.


Assistance... wait, aren't we playing a team game?

I've never had an issue hitting their backside in many, many hours of L4D2.

john_volkov
01-28-2011, 10:37 PM
The only problem with SI is when they allready hit you even thoght the animation isen't played, they run to you and hit you with no hiting animation.

Buick72
01-28-2011, 11:30 PM
Someone doesn't use sniper rifles :)


Pffft that's pretty much all he uses.

Really the only difference is the 30 round magazine on the g3, I have never noticed any other difference between the two. All the weapons stat sheets I have seen say the same thing. Same damage, fire rate, accuracy. I mean, if there is a difference in accuracy it's so minuscule it's hard to notice.

As far as the t1 shotguns having less ammo, I think they should have more. It's a bit silly that you not only find t2 weapons every 5 feet, they have more ammo then the lesser parts. Would make the game a bit more fun and challenging if you weren't tripping over AK's and auto shotguns the whole time, but I think I am in the minority there.

Zora-Link
01-29-2011, 12:05 AM
Pffft that's pretty much all he uses.

Really the only difference is the 30 round magazine on the g3, I have never noticed any other difference between the two. All the weapons stat sheets I have seen say the same thing. Same damage, fire rate, accuracy. I mean, if there is a difference in accuracy it's so minuscule it's hard to notice.

As far as the t1 shotguns having less ammo, I think they should have more. It's a bit silly that you not only find t2 weapons every 5 feet, they have more ammo then the lesser parts. Would make the game a bit more fun and challenging if you weren't tripping over AK's and auto shotguns the whole time, but I think I am in the minority there.

If you don't notice the considerable accuracy decrease on the move... well... I dunno what to say to you. It's certainly enough to notice, unless you miss a lot already. :(

And almost every suggestion in this list makes the game easier. Which makes me sad.

source-maps
01-29-2011, 06:14 AM
don't be like that, you know how it sucks when someone says to you "The game is fine".

I KNOW but for campaign it's actually pretty balanced XD

16bearswutIdo
01-29-2011, 07:28 AM
don't be like that, you know how it sucks when someone says to you "The game is fine".

The game IS fine. You're not entitled to ♥♥♥♥ like patch updates and animation fixes. Just deal with it.

source-maps
01-29-2011, 07:51 AM
The game IS fine. You're not entitled to ♥♥♥♥ like patch updates and animation fixes. Just deal with it.

lol, rage

No_wander_off
01-29-2011, 09:57 AM
I KNOW but for campaign it's actually pretty balanced XD

Fear of change? ;)

Buick72
01-29-2011, 09:59 AM
If you don't notice the considerable accuracy decrease on the move... well... I dunno what to say to you. It's certainly enough to notice, unless you miss a lot already. :(

And almost every suggestion in this list makes the game easier. Which makes me sad.

I don't miss more with one than the other, I get the same accuracy with both rifles. I don't think the difference is that considerable if there at all. They are both easy as hell to use on the move. I usually finish a campaign with 60-80% accuracy unless I spam fire an m16, and eve then it's around 40-50% Most of the people I know use both snipers and get high accuracies and have never noticed this. Maybe we just aren't perceptive enough to notice....

Maybe it's there maybe it's not, whatever. It doesn't effect me if it is. If anything, I would like it if both snipers were less accurate on the run, they are both rail guns and easy to use. Just give them a bit more sway on the move and they would be fine.

As for the fixes, I hope you don't mean fixing animations makes the game easier and you're referring to the other stuff. I want the game harder too, but not harder for stupid reasons. Like broken animations. I think the game is already easy enough, and wish it had a few more things to make it more difficult, most of the things I want will never happen though. Like limiting t2 weapons, weather effects on all maps.

I'm going to have to say no to the hardhats stopping bullets as well. I have shot one with a 9mm before.. it didn't stop the round at all. It's as silly as the riot cops riot armor stopping bullets. Riot armor is mean for blunt force protection, not high caliber firearms... then again I am trying to argue real life stuff into the game, and I already nagged at someone for doing that... so "eh."

Darth Z
01-29-2011, 10:14 AM
Construction workers are SUPPOSED to be immune to pipes. That's their uncommonness.

Also they are immune to headshots as well. They take normal damage on head and body while commons take fatal damage on head and normal on body.

Bile bombs need a fix, but they are not uncommon at all if they are just immune to headshots and not pipes as headshots are only needed on high difficulty or realism, other wise bodyshots are just as good.

It's like saying mudmen shouldn't affect your screen, having them crawl is enough. Or CEDA shouldn't be immune to fire, having them drop bile bombs is enough.

Buick72
01-29-2011, 10:17 AM
Construction workers are SUPPOSED to be immune to pipes. That's their uncommonness.

Also they are immune to headshots as well. They take normal damage on head and body while commons take fatal damage on head and normal on body.

Bile bombs need a fix, but they are not uncommon at all if they are just immune to headshots and not pipes as headshots are only needed on high difficulty or realism, other wise bodyshots are just as good.

It's like saying mudmen shouldn't affect your screen, having them crawl is enough. Or CEDA shouldn't be immune to fire, having them drop bile bombs is enough.

Agreed it's just the bile that needs to be fixed. It's odd that they ignore bile bombs, but not bile. Also, they come to the sound of thunder or screeching metal... vibrations I guess...?

No_wander_off
01-29-2011, 10:22 AM
Agreed it's just the bile that needs to be fixed. It's odd that they ignore bile bombs, but not bile. Also, they come to the sound of thunder or screeching metal... vibrations I guess...?

more like bad design and poor implementation.

Buick72
01-29-2011, 10:22 AM
more like bad design and poor implementation.

Shhhh! Now everyone knows!

USSVagrant
01-29-2011, 10:26 AM
if you want to balance the desert eagle in realism make it hard to find , like only 1 desert eagle on a campanig, single pick up.

An interesting concept, although that rewards a single survivor for being the finder and punishes the rest of the team.

As for M16 on realism you need good accuracy for it, I get beter accuracy with the uzi on realism then the M16 but that's just me, but still the M16 it's an ok weapon on realism as well if you play for headshots

You actually make a really good point. The Uzis have a much higher ammo count than the m16, and a good fire rate, making them more useful for headshots.

The only point I put forth is though is the M16 shouldnt be as powerful as the Ak47 is in game

WHICH IS FINE.

The real issue is that when it comes to common infected, they simply do not muster enough power to be used effectively. If you want headshots, you might as well use the uzis, which have a higher ammo count.

It's a T1 Shotgun, just like the pump. Upping the ammo for one means upping the ammo for the other. And Valve doesn't want to encourage holding onto T1 anymore than you have to, so upping their ammo would be counterintuitive.

Is it? If we're talking zombie situations, T1 type weapons are going to be the most prolific (as will be their ammo). Actual automatic weapons are rare outside of the military.

Someone doesn't use sniper rifles

Here's my stats page. Tell me that I don't use sniper rifles again.

http://steamcommunity.com/id/evilrobot69/stats/L4D2?tab=stats&subtab=w

Take a note how I have the same number of kills with auto-shotties and the chrome shotgun. Yet, significantly fewer shots with the chrome.

Also take note on the accuracies I have with both snipers. And the Ak-47. And the Desert Eagle.

Please.


Excellent way to state your opinion with supporting facts!

Plastic hard hats block bullets now? Awesome! And no thanks. The whole point of them IS to screw people over who rely on the pipe/bile bomb.


But it doesn't. Make. Sense. There is no logical reason why they ignore pipe bombs or bile bombs. Even with ear plugs, it still doesn't make sense. At least with a hard hat it's not a huge intuitive leap to think "oh, can't headshot them."

Assistance... wait, aren't we playing a team game?

There are times the team is simply not available to help (or is actually trying to help, but cannot get the 4-5 cops zombies through the horde). This is extremely irritating.

If you don't notice the considerable accuracy decrease on the move... well... I dunno what to say to you. It's certainly enough to notice, unless you miss a lot already

There is none. I can reasonably predict where every frickin bullet is gonna hit while running and gunning with the g3 or m14. There is no visible difference. Ask Buick or Capolan here -- I regularly run and gun with both, very little loss in accuracy.

john_volkov
01-29-2011, 10:41 AM
There is none. I can reasonably predict where every frickin bullet is gonna hit while running and gunning with the g3 or m14. There is no visible difference. Ask Buick or Capolan here -- I regularly run and gun with both, very little loss in accuracy.


I can really tell you that you are wrong on that on it's there
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/8029/itsthere.png if you don't belive me I can even tell you what they all do , note this is the original script of the weapon.
M14 is cleary more accurate then G3.As for me I am a magnum Dude.

Buick72
01-29-2011, 10:47 AM
I can really tell you that you are wrong on that on it's there
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/8029/itsthere.png if you don't belive me I can even tell you what they all do , note this is the original script of the weapon.
M14 is cleary more accurate then G3.As for me I am a magnum Dude.

Your statement does not prove him wrong when he is quoting his abilities. Just that there is a numerical difference between rifles. I'd say those numbers are marginal at best, and not big enough to really notice in game. I agree the magnum is fun, but I like to use dual pistols. Skeeting a hunter with dualies is just too much fun.

john_volkov
01-29-2011, 10:50 AM
Your statement does not prove him wrong when he is quoting his abilities. Just that there is a numerical difference between rifles. I'd say those numbers are marginal at best, and not big enough to really notice in game. I agree the magnum is fun, but I like to use dual pistols. Skeeting a hunter with dualies is just too much fun.

those Numbers represet something , for exemple
"MaxMovementSpread" "5" means that your bulets will go in a 5x5 Squere when moving,hunting rifle is 3x3 so a little tighter.
For me I use both of them but I prefer M14 for it's beter accuracy , get a fireaxe and you got Goodness, get a Sniper Military with Laser sight and you can ♥♥♥♥ all over M14

USSVagrant
01-29-2011, 10:53 AM
I can really tell you that you are wrong on that on it's there
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/8029/itsthere.png if you don't belive me I can even tell you what they all do , note this is the original script of the weapon.
M14 is cleary more accurate then G3.As for me I am a magnum Dude.

"Terror specific data"?

Also, where did you find these files?

john_volkov
01-29-2011, 10:56 AM
"Terror specific data"?

Also, where did you find these files?

It's encoded in a VPK file within the game i manly use it to customize my weapons to tell them to do what ever I want to do like I did the Barett .50Cal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyFX266b9cQ

Buick72
01-29-2011, 10:57 AM
those Numbers represet something , for exemple
"MaxMovementSpread" "5" means that your bulets will go in a 5x5 Squere when moving,hunting rifle is 3x3 so a little tighter.
For me I use both of them but I prefer M14 for it's beter accuracy , get a fireaxe and you got Goodness, get a Sniper Military with Laser sight and you can ♥♥♥♥ all over M14

Yeah snipers and melee are a great combo. I get what the stats mean, I have just never noticed it in game. Will test it out some more tonight while looking for it. Though after 900+ hours of play and not seeing it really make a difference....

I use the m14 more because I like the sound better.. Favored due to audio more than anything. Or I stick to the chrome and try to keep it the whole campaign.

john_volkov
01-29-2011, 11:01 AM
Yeah snipers and melee are a great combo. I get what the stats mean, I have just never noticed it in game. Will test it out some more tonight while looking for it. Though after 900+ hours of play and not seeing it really make a difference....

I use the m14 more because I like the sound better.. Favored due to audio more than anything. Or I stick to the chrome and try to keep it the whole campaign.

well with my 1200+ expiriance and I used it a lot especiali in Hard Eight I feal the difrence a lot.(lol Just notice i had 666 pots DEVIL)

Buick72
01-29-2011, 11:03 AM
well with my 1200+ expiriance and I used it a lot especiali in Hard Eight I feal the difrence a lot.

Touche.

source-maps
01-29-2011, 04:56 PM
Fear of change? ;)

haha, if there are any changes to make it harder.. Valve be my guest ^^

No_wander_off
01-29-2011, 05:02 PM
haha, if there are any changes to make it harder.. Valve be my guest ^^

that's the spirit.

Now, i agree deeply with the magnum (and *ahem* melee weapons) not making 1-shot kills in realism (or realism based gamemodes ;) ) because it really makes it pointless for you to grab any other weapon. suddenly the magnum becomes your primary.

5thSurvivor
01-29-2011, 06:13 PM
I agree with pretty much all the recommendations or at least the nature of them, but there's still plenty else they could do (could've done).

Some of the gameplay in campaign makes me think they should just scrap all the difficulties higher than normal, take a good look at the game and decide how to make it more challenging from there without doing 90% of what they've been doing.

They made the glitchy, badly animated, unintuitively-combated enemies do ridiculously increased damage by difficulty. Instead they could have lowered magazine sizes, accuracy, spare ammo count, healing amounts, movespeed lowers at higher health levels...
...but no, instead the hunters are able to electricute you for 40 health while they're CLEARLY stumbling and unable to attack, they made common infected do 20 damage when they enter the INSTANT-CROUCH-UNDER-THE-TABLE-YOU'RE-STANDING-NEXT-TO-UNMELEEABLE stance... they made chargers that can instant spawn around the corner you're two feet away from do 20 damage a punch... ...ridiculous. Obviously never tested... "we need higher difficulties so lets just jack damage up really high and call it 'expert'."

Sure, it gets easy after you memorize all the BS and ways the game mechanics can break, but I would much rather have an easy FUN game than an easy load of crap.


If none of this happens, at least fix the magnum in realism. That game mode just isn't worth playing at the moment. As an FPS game, why have a game mode where ALL the weapons but one just aren't worth using ever? Realism is pretty much MAGNUMS-ONLY mode.

Ti_sonabull
02-11-2011, 11:02 PM
All 3 zombies teleport out of thin air, happens every game now. Way to ruin the engine, Valve.

A few have mentioned this bug before, but many deny its existence. So, here it is on video in all its glory, the magical spawning zombies. You are running through a totally empty room, and poof, zombies out of thin air, either right behind/beside you or in this case right on top of you so you can't move until you bash it dead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1R6pZbyx_0

(Running stock game, no mods, Realism expert local server on a top of the line PC.)

The code used to dictate that zombies came in consistent with what the player had just seen. So in the old days an empty street could only fill with CI if they came from houses, over fences, from behind buildings or trucks, even if you turned your back for a half second while doing a mouse whirl-around. It could not fill by teleportation. If you whirled around for a quarter second, the game used to know that that wasn't enough time for a horde to realistically run into an empty area. No longer true, if you glance quickly to the right then forward again, 30 enemies have appeared in 1/10th second, they would have had to cross 30 feet of empty space in that time, impossible. I think the code used to keep track of what survivors had seen and reconcile zombie spawns such that they obeyed the laws of physics, so the player could build a picture of the current world and its known occupants, and develop/alter strategy on the fly. That level of real world immersion was great in this game, and that is what has been lost.

Addendum: I think you people who say it NEVER happens, probably don't notice it or don't care about consistency and a game obeying predictable laws of physics. That's my guess. But either way, lots of people ARE affected by this, and it's a gamebreaker for us. In the words of my good friend, a very famous CS gamer from way back who has contributed some very high-view count L4D2 discussions on this forum, "Left4Dead 2 is ♥♥♥♥ now." I still try to hold out hope this gets fixed. But it ain't looking good.

Some more entertaining stuff here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/titsonabullsteam

offishulwoland
02-12-2011, 12:08 AM
I haven't checked it out more thoroughly but the problem with hunter, jockey and charger scratches while stumbled is probably more to do with the lack of lag compensation for melee attacks. If you are playing online with any signifigant lag, when you deadstop a hunter he will appear to still be stumbling whereas in the actual gameworld he has recovered and is scratching you. This could be tested by spawing a hunter in singleplayer and deadstoping him to see whether or not the AI is genuininely cheating. In singleplayer there will be no lag and hence the model animations should match exactly what the hunter is doing.

Zora-Link
02-12-2011, 12:23 AM
I haven't checked it out more thoroughly but the problem with hunter, jockey and charger scratches while stumbled is probably more to do with the lack of lag compensation for melee attacks. If you are playing online with any signifigant lag, when you deadstop a hunter he will appear to still be stumbling whereas in the actual gameworld he has recovered and is scratching you. This could be tested by spawing a hunter in singleplayer and deadstoping him to see whether or not the AI is genuininely cheating. In singleplayer there will be no lag and hence the model animations should match exactly what the hunter is doing.

Don't worry, it happens in local too.

It's not lag.

Buick72
02-12-2011, 12:37 AM
Don't worry, it happens in local too.

It's not lag.

Yeah the stumble animation just doesn't sink up with the amount of time they are actually stumbling. That combined with the fact that the AI does not have to face you to hit you, makes it even worse. I think we have all been punched by a an AI tank that's not even facing us...

xxxVJ300xxx
02-12-2011, 01:24 AM
The only thing I agree on is Chrome Shotty (but also Pump Shotty should..) having more reserve ammo. L4D was Shotgun = 128 Reserve, and SMG I think = 480. L4D2 Shotgun = 56, SMG = 650!?

Way to nerf what didnt need nerfing. SMG's needed more ammo, but seriously give us at leas 64-90 reserve for the T1 shotguns.

Adenru
02-12-2011, 01:30 AM
In addition, there is no reason at all to not pick up a G3 (military sniper) over an M14 (hunting rifle). These two guns need some kind of difference to make the m14 worth picking up.
My friend prefers M14 because it has better accuracy while moving.

In l4d1 sniper rifle was very cool for people who knew how to use it. I prefered it on blood harvest and on some dead air maps and have never taken m16.
Thanks to whinig about ot in l4d1 sniper rifle is now turned to the deadliest weapon out there in l4d2, except for realism, where eagle is the best weapon.

Gamingliker
02-12-2011, 01:46 AM
I agree with the D.Eagle.(AKA Magnum)
Its too strong on Realism,think about it, AK-47 and Sniper Rifles should be the 1 hit killers along with the M60 and not just some handgun.

Also,all shotguns should 1hit kill on common inected in realism.But it has to be straight into the body,all the pellets.
So you need to get close up for a guaranteed kill.

I think Chrome shotgun should left the way it is.Or upgrade it to Tier 2 if you need that extra max ammo that badly,besides,pump shotguns are not handy for horde attacks or cr0wning witches(Miss,GG.com)

Boomer and Charger.Yeah,good suggestions.AI boomers are jokers.

Construction workers should stay the way they are.
Riot cops can be shoved away,they are only deadly to a incapacitated person.

ZombieHunterNL
02-12-2011, 03:02 AM
that's the spirit.

Now, i agree deeply with the magnum (and *ahem* melee weapons) not making 1-shot kills in realism (or realism based gamemodes ;) ) because it really makes it pointless for you to grab any other weapon. suddenly the magnum becomes your primary.

good point,i finished Dead Cnter on Realism Expert with only a magnum,and though i love my mag i wish it wasnt that powerful. (yes if i wanted to have a harder game i just shoudlnt pick it up but i cant resist picking it up,besides that you aint gone melee in realism expert. unless your in a narrow hallway or corner and you get to kill a lot of them.)

and Note:
1: Magnum is OP in Realism Expert
2: Dual Pistols suck on anything above Advanced realism
i loved dual pistols in l4d1,now they just plain suck.

john_volkov
02-12-2011, 08:09 AM
and Note:
1: Magnum is OP in Realism Expert
2: Dual Pistols suck on anything above Advanced realism
i loved dual pistols in l4d1,now they just plain suck.

Magnum it's OK you try to kill a Charger with a magnum if you ask me to nerf it it sould just be a single pick up weapon , you have on gun on the ground you grab it and it's gone,as for Dual Pistols ,they are still the same handguns from l4d 1 , even thoght they look diffrent , it's just that the comman infected are damn hard to kill,I like the Dual pistols as well , They are Good for Headshots.

No_wander_off
02-12-2011, 08:21 AM
Magnum it's OK you try to kill a Charger with a magnum if you ask me to nerf it it sould just be a single pick up weapon , you have on gun on the ground you grab it and it's gone,as for Dual Pistols ,they are still the same handguns from l4d 1 , even thoght they look diffrent , it's just that the comman infected are damn hard to kill,I like the Dual pistols as well , They are Good for Headshots.

they are not the same, they have a block that prevents you from shooting constantly, it in l4d1 you could compare them with machine pistols.

Also, the magnum, it's a secondary weapon, it's not supossed to be that strong.

PizzaSHARK!
02-12-2011, 08:21 AM
Campaign is fine, to me it feels like l4d2 was designed around that mode

That's because it was.

Whatus
02-12-2011, 08:21 AM
Honestly? I think the Desert Eagle is fine. But if you really want a nerf, then not piercing through a crowd would be the way to go, imo. 1 bullet would mean only 1 common. (Currently, a single shot can kill 2 commons max)

Magnum gives up dps and magazine size in order to 1hit commons (and look big on your screen)

Why the 1 common only? So you cannot just rip through a horde. I can decimate a horde with it easily in it's current state, especially if they funnel through the many narrow areas (or all spawn in a single closet that in no way could hold all of them).

my 2% of a dollar.

No_wander_off
02-12-2011, 10:15 AM
Honestly? I think the Desert Eagle is fine. But if you really want a nerf, then not piercing through a crowd would be the way to go, imo. 1 bullet would mean only 1 common. (Currently, a single shot can kill 2 commons max)

Magnum gives up dps and magazine size in order to 1hit commons (and look big on your screen)

Why the 1 common only? So you cannot just rip through a horde. I can decimate a horde with it easily in it's current state, especially if they funnel through the many narrow areas (or all spawn in a single closet that in no way could hold all of them).

my 2% of a dollar.

doesn't matter if you risk dps if you have a primary that can handle that, the hordes can be a problem in realism if you don't have the right tool. In realism, Magnum is what everyone picks up. turning the mode into a magnum-only mode. Not to mention that it's superior than a primary weapon.

This has been a common complain between the Realism players for a round year. Don't know why people are defending it, it's counter productive, since it takes away one of the features of Realism (stronger commons).

TheCombatMedic
02-12-2011, 10:22 AM
In that case why don't you nerf melee weapons too?

Buick72
02-12-2011, 10:24 AM
doesn't matter if you risk dps if you have a primary that can handle that, the hordes can be a problem in realism if you don't have the right tool. In realism, Magnum is what everyone picks up. turning the mode into a magnum-only mode. Not to mention that it's superior than a primary weapon.

This has been a common complain between the Realism players for a round year. Don't know why people are defending it, it's counter productive, since it takes away one of the features of Realism (stronger commons).

Agreed, 4 Deagles can pretty much stroll through expert realism. Just save a hunting rifle, or AK for specials and tanks and deagle everything else.

No_wander_off
02-12-2011, 10:32 AM
In that case why don't you nerf melee weapons too?

cuz this ain't a versus thread.

TheCombatMedic
02-12-2011, 12:57 PM
And that has to do with this how exactly? Melee weapons be OP too, one hit kill on commons like the magnum.

No_wander_off
02-12-2011, 01:04 PM
And that has to do with this how exactly? Melee weapons be OP too, one hit kill on commons like the magnum.

well, because there needs to be a nerf for melee weapons in competitive modes, in Co-op you got different difficulty settings, in expert for example, the drawback for missing with a melee weapon is higher. however, i don't see why a simple nerf could be applied to them.

Euclix
02-12-2011, 01:15 PM
Campaign is fine. Realism has problems.