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kaydee
02-07-2011, 10:45 PM
Started with PC games, it seems like now PS3 users will get the famous "serial code" and it's "activation limit".

Although Sony says nothing regarding this rumor...

I say console users will be treated just like PC gamers in near future... Just a little more penny for their games... lol...

I buy used games at the EB games for dirt cheap price (Something like 4.99~9.99 depending the game title), and guess I should take advantage of this until no avail.

Sony Moving to Serial Numbers with PS3?

The use of serial codes in console titles could spell the end of the used games industry.

ZoomEdge Magazine reports that an unnamed source claims Sony will use serial codes for all future PlayStation 3 game discs. The news arrives shortly after iPhone hacker GeoHot discovered and published the console's root keys which allows developers and pirates alike to sign unauthorized code as genuine Sony software, bypassing the console's security.

The possible movement to a serial code system isn't surprising. The PC gaming industry already has this method of DRM in place to prevent piracy, consisting of a long, annoying combination of numbers and letters players must manually insert with a keyboard. Some titles prevent the game from installing without the code-- others simply lock the player out of the multiplayer portion. But as we've seen over the years, the system isn't fool-proof, as hackers usually find a way around the system by launching key generators or replacement executables.

Although Sony has yet to confirm the movement to serial code usage, the unnamed source indicated that the company already uses a similar system with the PlayStation Network. Gamers typically purchase a game code, sign on to their PlayStation Network account, and enter the code to receive the product which is in turn tied to the user.

The source also said that gamers can use the code only five times. This in itself could have an impact on the used games industry, as retailers will have no idea how many valid codes still remain on a possible PlayStation 3 game trade-in. Owners of a specific game will also seemingly have a limit on the number of friends who can "borrow" the disc in its lifetime.

As with PC gaming, hackers will eventually find a way around this particular type of DRM. It's surprising that Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft haven't already implemented a serial number system given the complaints from the industry about piracy and second-hand sales. But as Edge Magazine points out, gamers most affected by serial codes would be those who buy legitimate games and cannot trade in or sell them at a later date.

Currently Sony has not provided any feedback on the report.

Source: http://www.tomsguide.com/us/Used-Games-Serial-Codes-DRM-PlayStation-3-key-generator,news-10025.html

TheRevanchist
02-07-2011, 10:59 PM
I'm not surprised. Companies are really getting hit hard by used games sales.

Jinoruizraged
02-07-2011, 11:01 PM
Blame the root kit hackers. :)

Eriako
02-07-2011, 11:02 PM
Blame the root kit hackers. :)

I just can't. I feel like a lot of people are using them as an excuse to further their own agendas.

EDIT: And I'd be upset if they got rid of used games, since I can't really afford them at $60 a pop constantly. Plus I bet a lot of people who trade in for credit towards new games would be pretty mad. But I doubt this will actually happen.

trojanrabbit.gg
02-07-2011, 11:06 PM
I'm not surprised. Companies are really getting hit hard by used games sales.

Yeah. "Hit Hard":rolleyes: When around 30% of the average game comes packaged in post release DLC? I think not.:p

sad_ism
02-07-2011, 11:07 PM
A throwaway licensing system should have a throwaway price as well. If this doesn't interfere with legitimate use, and is appropriately cheaper (i.e. minus the price a used game may get), it should be okay.

TheRevanchist
02-07-2011, 11:09 PM
Yeah. "Hit Hard":rolleyes: When around 30% of the average game comes packaged in post release DLC? I think not.:p

The reason why they do that is to make up for the lost revenue from used games sales.

Microshocky
02-07-2011, 11:10 PM
I don't like EA's plan of making you buy a 10 dollar Online Pass if you didn't buy it new. It's just inconvenient. What if i give the game to a friend? He has to buy an online pass when I already basically bought an online pass? So two online passes for one game?

Jinoruizraged
02-07-2011, 11:10 PM
I just can't. I feel like a lot of people are using them as an excuse to further their own agendas.

EDIT: And I'd be upset if they got rid of used games, since I can't really afford them at $60 a pop constantly. Plus I bet a lot of people who trade in for credit towards new games would be pretty mad. But I doubt this will actually happen.

The only people who would have an excuse would be Sony, and they had an agenda which was frustrated by the hackers. They want to get back on track so they'll do this.

I don't think they want to give that much value to their product, though it would justify the prices for their stuff.

Too bad Valve isn't running the gaming industry.

Eriako
02-07-2011, 11:15 PM
The only people who would have an excuse would be Sony, and they had an agenda which was frustrated by the hackers. They want to get back on track so they'll do this.

I don't think they want to give that much value to their product, though it would justify the prices for their stuff.

Too bad Valve isn't running the gaming industry.

Yeah, it's just frustrating, because I'd bet the people who could actually use the keys without bricking their system are like less than 0.5% of the PS3 base, but there are a ton of people making it seem like no one will ever buy a game again.

I just wish they would have more faith in their customer base, sheeesh. I mean, if I didn't want to buy their games, I wouldn't have for the past fifteen years. ._.

HammerLegionary
02-07-2011, 11:22 PM
Wow what about the people who don't have Internet connections.
And of course no more trade-ins and return policies would be different either way I hope this doesn't happen.

trojanrabbit.gg
02-07-2011, 11:27 PM
The reason why they do that is to make up for the lost revenue from used games sales.

And the reason why people wait for a used product is because not everyone is wealthy enough to go out and buy a brand new $60 game with an additional $20-$30 in DLC content. Besides the fact that most companies are using a copy paste format for the games they are releasing. They aren't worth the money they are asking for to begin with. It all boils down to simple greed. No need to cover by saying that the companies "need" more money.

Aemony
02-07-2011, 11:28 PM
This is once again just another event of publishers pushing unnecessary limitations and restriction upon legitimate customers, all while saying it's 'for a good cause'.

Pirates will not be harmed by this, only legitimate customers and the second hand market will be. Can't say I'm surprised, really. Now let us just see how PS3 owners respond to an idea such as this.

And if they bash the hackers for unlocking the PS3 so people to do as they want on it I just *facepalm*.

Jinoruizraged
02-07-2011, 11:28 PM
Yeah, it's just frustrating, because I'd bet the people who could actually use the keys without bricking their system are like less than 0.5% of the PS3 base, but there are a ton of people making it seem like no one will ever buy a game again.

I just wish they would have more faith in their customer base, sheeesh. I mean, if I didn't want to buy their games, I wouldn't have for the past fifteen years. ._.

Publishers want to put a cap on the amount of value a product can have so they can make us pay for more value added upon it.

Really lame.

Microshocky
02-07-2011, 11:40 PM
I don't think Sony will do that. It requires everyone to have an internet connection just to verify their game. What if servers are down for maintenance or are just overloaded cause everyone is trying to verify their new copy of COD?
Sony said 80 percent of their consoles are connected to the internet, but that leaves a huge number unconnected. That's a lot of lost sales.

I think this article is talking more about how Sony will bring over more retail titles on the PSN and just got confused. PSN accounts are allowed to be on up to five PS3's and they can all play the games on the account at the same time.

Draek
02-07-2011, 11:45 PM
And the reason why people wait for a used product is because not everyone is wealthy enough to go out and buy a brand new $60 game with an additional $20-$30 in DLC content. Besides the fact that most companies are using a copy paste format for the games they are releasing. They aren't worth the money they are asking for to begin with. It all boils down to simple greed. No need to cover by saying that the companies "need" more money.

If you're buying games brand new, you're doing it wrong already. But then again, console gaming is mostly about playing "the latest fad" than anything resembling quality, so it's little wonder.

Microshocky
02-07-2011, 11:47 PM
If you're buying games brand new, you're doing it wrong already. But then again, console gaming is mostly about playing "the latest fad" than anything resembling quality, so it's little wonder.

LOL at acting like PC gaming is any different. Black Ops is still on the top sellers list on Steam.

Aemony
02-07-2011, 11:56 PM
LOL at acting like PC gaming is any different. Black Ops is still on the top sellers list on Steam.

The Top Seller list is revenue based, not units sold. So since the game is priced €10 more than all other AAA games every other game must sell multiple copies more than CoD to overcome it.

If CoD is bought by 100 people Dead Space 2 needs to sell 121 copies in order to overcome it on the revenue list. Now see all the other top sellers on the list like Magicka, which is only priced at €9,99. For every 100 copies CoD is sold Magicka must be sold 601 copies.

trojanrabbit.gg
02-08-2011, 12:03 AM
If CoD is bought by 100 people Dead Space 2 needs to sell 121 copies in order to overcome it on the revenue list. Now see all the other top sellers on the list like Magicka, which is only priced at €9,99. For every 100 copies CoD is sold Magicka must be sold 601 copies.

An apple is not worth the same cost in labor as an orange is. A game like Magicka does not have the same initial budget as a game like Dead Space. So even if Deadspace sells 121 copies, it probably had a multi million dollar budget. I garrentee you that Magicka had a very small budget to start with. So if Magicka sells just as good as Dead Space does, it is doing damn well.

CTRL ALT DEL !
02-08-2011, 12:23 AM
I wouldn't be surprised to see limited activations on all consoles soon.

It will be good for PC gaming as many gamers now use consoles so they can use cheap used games.

And it will end games rentals as well, if you want to play it you will have to buy it.

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 12:31 AM
I can only hope it's the end of use console sales. Why? Well because, I want to see GameStop go out of business and bankrupt for treating PC Gamers like second class citizens and used game sales are bad for Developers/Publishers. So I certainly hope this is the final nail in it's coffin.

Aemony
02-08-2011, 01:18 AM
I can only hope it's the end of use console sales. Why? Well because, I want to see GameStop go out of business and bankrupt for treating PC Gamers like second class citizens and used game sales are bad for Developers/Publishers. So I certainly hope this is the final nail in it's coffin.

I agree. I find it completely insane how they advertise the used games the most and the system they use to maximize the income. Often it's like you need to swap 3 relatively new games for one of the latest games, and those used games you swap in are then sold $5 or $10 cheaper than the unused copy. And consumers are stupid enough to often go for the lower price, completely ignoring the fact that 100% of those profits goes to the store and not the developers.

Console gamers hating piracy and the 'bad things' it gives them should really hate the unused market and retailers such as GameStop far more.

Though it is always fun to hear an ignorant console gamer whom buy all his games used whine about how much he suffers from console piracy.

iBMe
02-08-2011, 01:23 AM
Really sucks. I hardly ever buy new on console as its just too expensive, and I kind of like getting games way after release. For instance this last couple of months I have completed God of War 3, traded for Uncharted 2 completed and traded for InFamous and its cost less than £15.

psihomir2
02-08-2011, 01:32 AM
It was only a matter of time, considering most developers apparently don't approve of this practice.

Briticent
02-08-2011, 01:40 AM
I can only hope it's the end of use console sales. Why? Well because, I want to see GameStop go out of business and bankrupt for treating PC Gamers like second class citizens and used game sales are bad for Developers/Publishers. So I certainly hope this is the final nail in it's coffin.

In what way do they treat PC gamers like second class citizens?

The notion that second-hand sales harm developers is nonsense. Even if it did that's just tough - does anyone feel sorry for Ford when someone buys a second hand car?

Plenty of younger kids rely on being able to part-exchange their older games in order to pay for new games.

Briticent
02-08-2011, 01:42 AM
I agree. I find it completely insane how they advertise the used games the most and the system they use to maximize the income. Often it's like you need to swap 3 relatively new games for one of the latest games, and those used games you swap in are then sold $5 or $10 cheaper than the unused copy. And consumers are stupid enough to often go for the lower price, completely ignoring the fact that 100% of those profits goes to the store and not the developers.

Console gamers hating piracy and the 'bad things' it gives them should really hate the unused market and retailers such as GameStop far more.

Though it is always fun to hear an ignorant console gamer whom buy all his games used whine about how much he suffers from console piracy.

Comparing used-game sales to piracy is ridiculous.

psihomir2
02-08-2011, 01:42 AM
The notion that second-hand sales harm developers is nonsense. Even if it did that's just tough - does anyone feel sorry for Ford when someone buys a second hand car?

... the notion that it *doesn't* is nonsense.

iBMe
02-08-2011, 01:42 AM
Its not right that you pay for something and not be allowed to to sell it on, the developers have made their money from it already, there's no guarantee that the second hand buyer would have bought new.

Briticent
02-08-2011, 01:47 AM
... the notion that it *doesn't* is nonsense.

So when a kid trades in an old game in order to pay for a new game that he wouldn't otherwise have been able to afford how is the developer harmed?

psihomir2
02-08-2011, 01:51 AM
So when a kid trades in an old game in order to pay for a new game that he wouldn't otherwise have been able to afford how is the developer harmed?

Do the developers receive any money when that kid gets his copy of the game?

Briticent
02-08-2011, 01:56 AM
Do the developers receive any money when that kid gets his copy of the game?

Yes because he is trading in an old game in order to finance the purchase of a new one.

CTRL ALT DEL !
02-08-2011, 01:57 AM
Renting a games is what has bought this about. Some businesses make hundred of dollar from a single game and then sell it to make more profit margins and giving nothing to the developers compared to the profit.

psihomir2
02-08-2011, 01:58 AM
Yes because he is trading in an old game in order to finance the purchase of a new one.

Then I've been understanding this whole argument wrongly, I thought this was about the direct trading of games between 2 people. Apologies then. :)

Briticent
02-08-2011, 02:01 AM
Then I've been understanding this whole argument wrongly, I thought this was about the direct trading of games between 2 people. Apologies then. :)

Why would anyone be against people swapping games with each other?

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 02:42 AM
Comparing used-game sales to piracy is ridiculous.

No it's not at all. Buying a used game is the same thing as piracy just in a more legitimate matter. You aren't paying the publishers money for a product they created, no you are circumventing that and buying it used. Which means no money for publishers, which equates to basically Stealing in their eyes. They aren't seeing a cent of a product they financed to be made, yet its floating around from home to home, where they could of made double or triple the profit from two to three purchases of that particular game. Either way it's lost profit to publishers and it's no different than piracy.

In what way do they treat PC gamers like second class citizens?


They don't stock PC Games often and if they do it's a very small corner in their stores. Thats how they treat PC Gamers like they are un-wanted Second class citizens. Then retail stores like them have the gull to ♥♥♥♥♥ that Digital Distro is killing their profits, when it reality if they hadn't abandoned us, they would be making far more profit. Unless it's a big game, gamestop doesn't give a flying flip about stocking the game if its exclusively on PC.

Its not right that you pay for something and not be allowed to to sell it on, the developers have made their money from it already, there's no guarantee that the second hand buyer would have bought new.

Developers are losing money, when you sell a game, then someone else buys it for cheap. That was a potential purchase that they lost because of people selling a used game. No there is no guarantee they would of bought it new, but I am more than willing to bet they would of bought a game new if there were no used sales. It seems to work for PC Gaming very well.. I suppose it's not right that Valve actually owns all your games that you have purchased.. and you technically have no ownership of them.. and if they wanted to could shut you out of your games. Funny how that works, yet people continue to use a service like Steam and continue to promote it, continue to help Valve earn insane profits.. hrmm funny.

Yes because he is trading in an old game in order to finance the purchase of a new one.

Yes and No. Let say XXX Kid sells his game to GameStop, this game was developed by Bioware, and Published by EA. With his excess money he goes and buys a game buy Activision. Oh WoW look, you just screwed over EA by have your game resold and didn't buy another game by EA but Activsion. So in essence you just helped EA competitor and screwed them out of a future potential purchase of a new game. So yes you have harmed them but slightly helped another. This is just one scenario but you get the jist. You are harming publishers and developers, and I for one can't wait for Used Game sales to go away.

Another thing on the case of used game Sales, The biggest issue is that people like GameStop are making mega profit off of something they never created. Personally I feel that should be illegal but w/e. GameStops biggesxt profit margin is from Buy and Sell of used games yet the publishers never see this money, GAmeStop certainly didn't help fund or make the games, yet they are profitting off of someone elses hard work. If you seriously think thats okay than feel free to make something, sell it, then let that person pass it around, while whatever creation made doesn't sell any longer. Tell me how that feels, tell me how it feels how much profit your losing because your creation was passed around, and these people are making mega bucks of your HARD work. It's actually a bad thing for Publishers, no they don't technically need the money, but they financed it to help the wonderful >Developers< who see very little of the money from their creation to start off with. Most developers aren't rich people, they are normal people working their butts off to bring you a great experience and people repay them by buying used games that they won't get any money from. As I said, I can't wait for Scum like Gamestop to go bankrupt and Console Creators like MS, Sony and Nintendo start forcing Serial key checks.. God I can't wait for that day.

Briticent
02-08-2011, 02:52 AM
No it's not at all. Buying a used game is the same thing as piracy just in a more legitimate matter. You aren't paying the publishers money for a product they created, no you are circumventing that and buying it used. Which means no money for publishers, which equates to basically Stealing in their eyes. They aren't seeing a cent of a product they financed to be made, yet its floating around from home to home, where they could of made double or triple the profit from two to three purchases of that particular game. Either way it's lost profit to publishers and it's no different than piracy.

Walking to work in the rain and being pushed over into a puddle both result in getting wet but that doesn't mean they are the same thing. Piracy and second hand sales aren't the same thing at all.



They don't stock PC Games often and if they do it's a very small corner in their stores. Thats how they treat PC Gamers like they are un-wanted Second class citizens. Then retail stores like them have the gull to ♥♥♥♥♥ that Digital Distro is killing their profits, when it reality if they hadn't abandoned us, they would be making far more profit. Unless it's a big game, gamestop doesn't give a flying flip about stocking the game if its exclusively on PC.

If they don't stock PC games very often it is because they don't sell well enough. They don't stock Amiga 500s or Atari STs either for the same reason.

It isn't a conspiracy and they aren't treating PC gamers like second class citizens.



Developers are losing money, when you sell a game, then someone else buys it for cheap. That was a potential purchase that they lost because of people selling a used game. No there is no guarantee they would of bought it new, but I am more than willing to bet they would of bought a game new if there were no used sales. It seems to work for PC Gaming very well.. I suppose it's not right that Valve actually owns all your games that you have purchased.. and you technically have no ownership of them.. and if they wanted to could shut you out of your games. Funny how that works, yet people continue to use a service like Steam and continue to promote it, continue to help Valve earn insane profits.. hrmm funny.

Yes and No. Let say XXX Kid sells his game to GameStop, this game was developed by Bioware, and Published by EA. With his excess money he goes and buys a game buy Activision. Oh WoW look, you just screwed over EA by have your game resold and didn't buy another game by EA but Activsion. So in essence you just helped EA competitor and screwed them out of a future potential purchase of a new game. So yes you have harmed them but slightly helped another. This is just one scenario but you get the jist. You are harming publishers and developers, and I for one can't wait for Used Game sales to go away.

You are looking at this in far too narrow a sense. For every Sega game sold to fund a Nintendo sale there is another person selling a Nintendo game to fund a Sega game.

No-one gets screwed by second hand sales.

Another thing on the case of used game Sales, The biggest issue is that people like GameStop are making mega profit off of something they never created. Personally I feel that should be illegal but w/e. GameStops biggesxt profit margin is from Buy and Sell of used games yet the publishers never see this money, GAmeStop certainly didn't help fund or make the games, yet they are profitting off of someone elses hard work. If you seriously think thats okay than feel free to make something, sell it, then let that person pass it around, while whatever creation made doesn't sell any longer. Tell me how that feels, tell me how it feels how much profit your losing because your creation was passed around, and these people are making mega bucks of your HARD work. It's actually a bad thing for Publishers, no they don't technically need the money, but they financed it to help the wonderful >Developers< who see very little of the money from their creation to start off with. Most developers aren't rich people, they are normal people working their butts off to bring you a great experience and people repay them by buying used games that they won't get any money from. As I said, I can't wait for Scum like Gamestop to go bankrupt and Console Creators like MS, Sony and Nintendo start forcing Serial key checks.. God I can't wait for that day.

Oh right, I see now. You are trolling.

Aemony
02-08-2011, 02:57 AM
In what way do they treat PC gamers like second class citizens?

I was amazed the other day when I went to my local game store and found the PC corner to have been switched out by yet even more used console games.

My local game store is of the biggest game store chain here in Sweden, and I'm not lying when I tell you that the stock out in the store consists of 60% used console games, 30% new console games and 10% of accessories to the consoles, or new consoles. Previously 10% of the store consisted of a variety of PC games, but as I said they recently threw out the whole section in favor of even more used games.

But the problem I have with stores is that they push and advertise the used games far more than the new games, and it's no wonder, seeing it from the revenue they get from the used games.

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 03:03 AM
Oh right, I see now. You are trolling.

Ahh.. Wonderful, now we are at the name calling phase. Feel free to come up with an intelligent argument and not resort to insulting.

Walking to work in the rain and being pushed over into a puddle both result in getting wet but that doesn't mean they are the same thing. Piracy and second hand sales aren't the same thing at all.

Ah but you are wet either way, you are inconvenienced both ways. This is the same logic for publishers. You are not giving them money either way, you are no different than a pirate to them. Whether you obtained the game from a legitimate source or a torrent, you stole money from them.


If they don't stock PC games very often it is because they don't sell well enough. They don't stock Amiga 500s or Atari STs either for the same reason.

It isn't a conspiracy and they aren't treating PC gamers like second class citizens.

PC Gaming last year made 11 billion dollars. Tell me now, how isn't it profitable? Now why aren't the games selling? Cause clearly they are selling. No, there is no conspiracy, it's just blatant spit in the face from GameStop. The irony here, as I mentioned earlier, is they seen how profitable Digital Distro is, they seen how much profit and how much they are losing. How do I know this? Because they are retail stores who refuse to stock Steamworks games, because it's lost profit to them. Their biggest competitor, they sell a steamworks game, people see Steam, people stop using EBGames online store. Which brings me to another point, EBGAmes (GameStops ONline Store) sell a ton of PC Games.. again.. why don't they stock them at their Brick and MOrtar stores? Oh thats right.. because they shafted us. It's irrelevant, if forced serials come about.. I can kiss GameStop goodbye forever.

You are looking at this in far too narrow a sense. For every Sega game sold to fund a Nintendo sale there is another person selling a Nintendo game to fund a Sega game.

No-one gets screwed by second hand sales.


And what about the people who only buy second hand games but never trade in? hrmm? Yea thats what I thought, they buy second hand, never new.. and I'd wager thats more common than people who do trade-ins.. since it's such a lucrative business for GameStop and other players.. Yea I guess I think to narrow.. or perhaps you are the one who is narrow minded?

Briticent
02-08-2011, 03:05 AM
I was amazed the other day when I went to my local game store and found the PC corner to have been switched out by yet even more used console games.

That is because they don't sell as well as the console games rather than because they have a pathological hatred of PC gamers.

My local game store is of the biggest game store chain here in Sweden, and I'm not lying when I tell you that the stock out in the store consists of 60% used console games, 30% new console games and 10% of accessories to the consoles, or new consoles. Previously 10% of the store consisted of a variety of PC games, but as I said they recently threw out the whole section in favor of even more used games.

But the problem I have with stores is that they push and advertise the used games far more than the new games, and it's no wonder, seeing it from the revenue they get from the used games.

Why is any of this a problem?

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 03:08 AM
That is because they don't sell as well as the console games rather than because they have a pathological hatred of PC gamers.


Provide me with a source saying that PC Games don't sell as well as console games.. come on. If I am simply a troll, put me in my place.

Edit: I don't want a source from anyone but GameStop, saying why they stopped selling PC Games.

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/41746/Retail-threatens-Steam-ban

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/11/11/store-wars-rivals-threaten-to-boycott-steam/

http://www.strategyinformer.com/news/9816/retailers-threaten-title-boycott-with-steamworks-a-rival-in-store

Pretty good article, it talks about how the PC Sections have shrunk over the years at Retail stores. Mostly in favor of yep you guessed it, Second Hand Sales, because you can't resell a PC Game. So they refuse to stock it, so thus spitting in PC Gamers face. Then it mentions how these major retailers wan't to boycott Steamworks games, but then when you think about it, they never really stocked PC GAmes anyway so it's not a big deal.

Briticent
02-08-2011, 03:13 AM
Provide me with a source saying that PC Games don't sell as well as console games.. come on. If I am simply a troll, put me in my place.

Edit: I don't want a source from anyone but GameStop, saying why they stopped selling PC Games.

You have two answers to choose from:

- The PC games do not sell well enough.

- Gamestop have a pathological hatred of PC gamers and secretly shoot death rays at them as they sleep.

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 03:19 AM
You have two answers to choose from:

- The PC games do not sell well enough.

- Gamestop have a pathological hatred of PC gamers and secretly shoot death rays at them as they sleep.

All I asked for was for you to cite a source.. is that asking to much? No there are plenty of reason for them not to sell PC Games. One is that they can't sold second hand which is the biggest income for these Brick and MOrtar stores. Funny. It's less about hatred and pure profit for them, they can't do this with PC Games. I could be wrong, however, I've simply asked for a source. Thats all. You can't do that can you?

Briticent
02-08-2011, 03:25 AM
All I asked for was for you to cite a source.. is that asking to much? No there are plenty of reason for them not to sell PC Games. One is that they can't sold second hand which is the biggest income for these Brick and MOrtar stores. Funny. It's less about hatred and pure profit for them, they can't do this with PC Games. I could be wrong, however, I've simply asked for a source. Thats all. You can't do that can you?

Can you find a source for the reason why Gamestop don't sell the Atari Jaguar? Or the Commodore 64?

You even said it yourself that there is less profit in PC games for them so why do you need a source?

Briticent
02-08-2011, 03:27 AM
Pretty good article, it talks about how the PC Sections have shrunk over the years at Retail stores. Mostly in favor of yep you guessed it, Second Hand Sales, because you can't resell a PC Game. So they refuse to stock it, so thus spitting in PC Gamers face.

How is that "spitting in PC Gamers face"?

Aemony
02-08-2011, 03:34 AM
That is because they don't sell as well as the console games rather than because they have a pathological hatred of PC gamers.

Why is any of this a problem?

I wouldn't have any problem if the section was swapped out for new console games, but to swap it out for used console games? Give me a break! I value the gaming industry a lot and think that publishers and developers deserves the money a game can bring in. Too few games generate a high enough revenue to further stimulate gaming development, and giving more space and priority to used copies than a new one hurts the publishers and developers more than you seem to think.

If the used market was contained and only amongst the minority then there wouldn't be any problem, but as I've said on multiple occasions giving used copies more priority than new copies only harm the 'real' creators of the game. Or you perhaps don't think that the developers or publishers deserves the money they loses on the used market?

In my eyes people buying games in second hand to save $10 as opposed to buying it new is far worse than pirates whom pirate their games.

Briticent
02-08-2011, 03:36 AM
In my eyes people buying games in second hand to save $10 as opposed to buying it new is far worse than pirates whom pirate their games.

Yeah, you tried this one before. Get a new one.

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 03:40 AM
How is that "spitting in PC Gamers face"?

Umm Lets see, "Lets Abandon PC Gaming" because we can't rock Second Hand Sells. Thats spitting in a PC Gamers face, it doesn't have to do with one is selling better than another. It has to do with Second Hand market if anything. While earning money is the key factor in a business, completely abandoning one part of your market doesn't exactly sound like a good thing to do. Now they want to get back into that market with Digital Distro.. interesting.. screw your customers over once, now they need to earn our loyalty again, unfortunately D2D, Impulse, GamesGate and Steam have already taken our loyalty. Once Console games start using serials.. tsk tsk.. ciao Retailers.

Can you find a source for the reason why Gamestop don't sell the Atari Jaguar? Or the Commodore 64?

You even said it yourself that there is less profit in PC games for them so why do you need a source?

I asked for a source saying that PC Games do not sell as well as Console games. I don't need to cite a source as to why they don't sell those products, common sense already dictates why they don't. When PC Gaming becomes obsolete I'd expect them to abandon it, however, PC Gaming is very lucrative.. and not obsolete, it is far from that. Ah, but you fail to understand, I don't believe I said they make less money, all I said is they can't second hand PC Games, so they don't stock them. You realize B&M Stores put an emphasis on second hand areas than they do on the "New" Stuff area. Even for console games. So they made their decision to phase out PC Games and now they want that pie back. This is an assumption on my part, but it's the most logical reason.

Aemony
02-08-2011, 03:44 AM
Yeah, you tried this one before. Get a new one.

Yeah, ignore the whole post and focus on a single sentence where I merely gives my view on two things which both hurts the gaming industry. Are you for real or a troll? Because I'm beginning to think the latter.

Briticent
02-08-2011, 03:45 AM
Umm Lets see, "Lets Abandon PC Gaming" because we can't rock Second Hand Sells. Thats spitting in a PC Gamers face, it doesn't have to do with one is selling better than another. It has to do with Second Hand market if anything.

No it isn't spitting in a PC Gamers face. You are deluded.

I asked for a source saying that PC Games do not sell as well as Console games. I don't need to cite a source as to why they don't sell those products, common sense already dictates why they don't.

You are also very confused.

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 03:50 AM
No it isn't spitting in a PC Gamers face. You are deluded.



You are also very confused.

It's okay mouse.. the cat will back off now.

Briticent
02-08-2011, 03:55 AM
Yeah, ignore the whole post and focus on a single sentence where I merely gives my view on two things which both hurts the gaming industry. Are you for real or a troll? Because I'm beginning to think the latter.

Put it this way. Anyone who says that buying second hand games is as bad as piracy is either a troll or an idiot.

Take your pick.

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 03:58 AM
Put it this way. Anyone who says that buying second hand games is as bad as piracy is either a troll or an idiot.

Take your pick.

Still resorting to petty insults.. dun dun duuuuun! :rolleyes:

Kahrandras
02-08-2011, 06:22 AM
In what way do they treat PC gamers like second class citizens?

The notion that second-hand sales harm developers is nonsense. Even if it did that's just tough - does anyone feel sorry for Ford when someone buys a second hand car?

Plenty of younger kids rely on being able to part-exchange their older games in order to pay for new games.

while i don't agree with gamergirls opinion, most game stops have walls filled with console games and one tiny little shelf for pc games

they do need to reduce the gap between trade in and sell value (because you know they're jacking that ♥♥♥♥ up after you trade it in)

gamestop is also a popular fence in high crime areas. take down your serial numbers.

gamestop does fill a niche for legitimate sellers not usually filled by pawn shops. you can get quick cash from them or trade in.

i also think that eventually consoles will be just like computers with standardized hardware. even that isn't a saving grace, as sometimes you get buggy releases. the appeal of consoles used to be that you could just throw the game in and play with your friends. no configuration or installation required. i hear you actually have to install games on the ps3.

maybe they're trying to stop the scenario with the wii from happening with their console. but this is a heavy handed way of doing it. ea has a track record of trying to ♥♥♥♥ the consumer over.

ShovelyJoe
02-08-2011, 06:55 AM
But...used games are the only way to play some older titles :(

MADDOGGE
02-08-2011, 07:26 AM
But...used games are the only way to play some older titles :(I hate to break this to you. They don't want you playing the older titles unless they re-release them. They are completion. If you are playing old games you aren't playing their new ones or so they think.

They want to be in control of what you can or can't play. No other industry gets away with this. I can resell my car, truck, freezer, house, stereo, bed, CD's, books or buy them second hand but only the gaming industry thinks it should be above all others and control the second hand market.

Eriako
02-08-2011, 07:28 AM
But...used games are the only way to play some older titles :(

Yep yep.

I think that I might be going to a different Gamestop than everyone else though, because the local ones really, really enthusiastically push new games through pre-orders, pretty much to the point where if you don't buy a title you fear they might jump you in the parking lot. Shoot, a lot of people buy new games for pre-order bonuses as well.

I concede that Gamestop is much more a niche for consoles, but that's why I buy all my retail PC games at Best Buy, or on Amazon. I guess I don't care if Gamestop stocks them, since it's usually just where I go if I'm looking for PS2/GC/DS games.

I'm not really a fan because the merchandise and magazine pushing is super annoying, but if I can save $30 or more dollars than I guess I will. I admit that I haven't read up on the facts of how the used game industry affects developers, but if someone can find documented studies performed by a neutral third party I promise to make time to read them.

TheRevanchist
02-08-2011, 07:34 AM
And the reason why people wait for a used product is because not everyone is wealthy enough to go out and buy a brand new $60 game with an additional $20-$30 in DLC content. Besides the fact that most companies are using a copy paste format for the games they are releasing. They aren't worth the money they are asking for to begin with. It all boils down to simple greed. No need to cover by saying that the companies "need" more money.

Yes "simple greed". Because all those companies are enjoying huge profits right now. Take the time to look at companies' financial statements instead of the useless sales numbers.

Briticent
02-08-2011, 07:45 AM
Yes "simple greed". Because all those companies are enjoying huge profits right now. Take the time to look at companies' financial statements instead of the useless sales numbers.

Not my problem. We are in a recession. These companies are actively taking away the ability for me to buy and use second hand games. I have no sympathy for them at all.

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 07:54 AM
Not my problem. We are in a recession. These companies are actively taking away the ability for me to buy and use second hand games. I have no sympathy for them at all.

Lol Recession? That ended nearly two years ago. However, I would enjoy watching your squirm when you lose the ability to ripoff hard working game developers.


They want to be in control of what you can or can't play. No other industry gets away with this. I can resell my car, truck, freezer, house, stereo, bed, CD's, books or buy them second hand but only the gaming industry thinks it should be above all others and control the second hand market.

For the most part, you don't own any of the contents of the disc you think you owned because you paid for it. Generally you are paying for a license and nothing more. You can't simply go Lease a car, resell it and call it good. No, you are likely to be sued. Be happy that these developers can't do that. This goes for anything you lease from a company, that being a long term lease on house appliances, electronics, vehicles, houses, furniture. This is the only industry that lets you sell a product you have a lease on. Irony.. or ignorance.. you pick.

xenton
02-08-2011, 07:58 AM
I'm not surprised. Companies are really getting hit hard by used games sales.

....
You know, I reckon 80% of people who own a game bought it new and only the remaining 20% buy it second hand.
I don't know anyone who sells their store bought games, and I have a lot of gaming friends.

Not to mention it costs said companies a few cents to produce an extra copy of a game and given most pay for the game within a few weeks of release, any additional sales are pure profit, all used games sales do is slightly reduce their profit.

TheRevanchist
02-08-2011, 08:00 AM
Not my problem. We are in a recession. These companies are actively taking away the ability for me to buy and use second hand games. I have no sympathy for them at all.

Recession? Have you read the newspapers lately?

Plus, little know fact: You actually need to make money in order to spend money to make new games. Here's another tidbit for you, because I can feel that you're one of those people who are going to throw out the 'ol sales/revenue number. Revenue =/= profit.

TheRevanchist
02-08-2011, 08:01 AM
....
You know, I reckon 80% of people who own a game bought it new and only the remaining 20% buy it second hand.
I don't know anyone who sells their store bought games, and I have a lot of gaming friends.

Not to mention it costs said companies a few cents to produce an extra copy of a game and given most pay for the game within a few weeks of release, any additional sales are pure profit, all used games sales do is slightly reduce their profit.

because those companies don't have any other expenses to cover other than producing more copies of the games right? ;)

Briticent
02-08-2011, 08:02 AM
Recession? Have you read the newspapers lately?

Plus, little know fact: You actually need to make money in order to spend money to make new games. Here's another tidbit for you, because I can feel that you're one of those people who are going to throw out the 'ol sales/revenue number. Revenue =/= profit.

Do you actually have a point here? You aren't actually responding to anything I said.

xenton
02-08-2011, 08:06 AM
because those companies don't have any other expenses to cover other than producing more copies of the games right? ;)

I didn't say that.
Hence "pay for the game within the first few weeks"

I've made a game, took me half a year and a hell of a lot of work. Granted, it was for a school assignment....but I know how much work, technology and time goes into making even an incredibly mediocre game, so I can imagine how many hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of dollars it would cost to make a modern game.

However, saying that, I stick by what I said, most, if not all, of a games costs are covered in the first few weeks.

Aemony
02-08-2011, 08:07 AM
I'm not really a fan because the merchandise and magazine pushing is super annoying, but if I can save $30 or more dollars than I guess I will. I admit that I haven't read up on the facts of how the used game industry affects developers, but if someone can find documented studies performed by a neutral third party I promise to make time to read them.

Interesting pieces and worth reading, but for more information you'll probably have to pay to get access to an actual study.

http://www.gamedaily.com/articles/news/used-games-account-for-20-or-more-of-players-libraries-ndash-interpret/

http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/43172/96-of-Games-Are-Not-A-Financial-Failure

http://venturebeat.com/2009/02/20/dice-summit-gamestop-executive-argues-used-games-drive-new-game-sales/

http://agamerswife.blogspot.com/2009/03/re-how-buying-used-games-can-hurt.html

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/28350/Study_Used_Games_Online_Makes_Up_46_Percent_Of_US_ Gamers_Budget.php

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 08:08 AM
Not to mention it costs said companies a few cents to produce an extra copy of a game and given most pay for the game within a few weeks of release, any additional sales are pure profit, all used games sales do is slightly reduce their profit.

A little bit of reduced profit? A LITTLE? Try 36.9% OF GameStops sales are new products.. get ready for it. A whooping 31% of their sales are used products. Yes, it's far far far more than just a slightly reduced profit. It's actually very high and a serious issue. Please read financial quarterly reports before you say "Slight reduced profits." GameStop doesn't need to order new stock if they continually get used games of new releases in.. meaning no fundage to publishers.. it's a major issue. More so than most would think.

TheRevanchist
02-08-2011, 08:09 AM
I didn't say that.
Hence "pay for the game within the first few weeks"

I've made a game, took me half a year and a hell of a lot of work. Granted, it was for a school assignment....but I know how much work, technology and time goes into making even an incredibly mediocre game, so I can imagine how many hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of dollars it would cost to make a modern game.

However, saying that, I stick by what I said, most, if not all, of a games costs are covered in the first few weeks.

So yes, think of how much more expenses a corporation has to cover. Administrative expenses, general expenses, the rent/lease of the their offices, salaries, etc...

Aemony
02-08-2011, 08:11 AM
Not my problem. We are in a recession. These companies are actively taking away the ability for me to buy and use second hand games. I have no sympathy for them at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-2000s_recession

and ended in June 2009

TheRevanchist
02-08-2011, 08:13 AM
Do you actually have a point here? You aren't actually responding to anything I said.

If you read carefully, you would pick up that I'm saying that you buying used games does not benefit the developers at all. They don't get anything from it. It's pretty much like pirating a game and paying the torrent site.

It's not so much "taking away your ability to buy used games" but making sure they see the fruits of their hard labor.

jeffreydean1
02-08-2011, 08:14 AM
Wow. The exact same 3 usual suspects who hate consumer's rights to resale and copy pasting ludicrous statements about used games being piracy. Im pretty sure GirlPower23 has a template just for this kind of thread.

There's no point in arguing with them because they are utterly convinced that consumers have no rights and resale is no better than stealing. You can't speak logic in the face of crazy.

jeffreydean1
02-08-2011, 08:18 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-2000s_recession

Anyone who believes the United States is out of recession has to be the most gullible SOB in the world.

Actual unemployment has climbed, less jobs are being created than are being destroyed, and underemployment (going from a high paying job to flipping burgers) is rampant.

The first thing anyone learns in a statistics class is that a statistic can say anything you want it to. Saying we're out of recession is nothing more than damage control by the bankers and elite. If we were out of recession why did we recently have Quantitative Easing 2? Do you even know what that was? I doubt it. (queue you firing up a Google tab and coming back to tell me what it is) Explain why the Canadian dollar is higher than the US now and steady there? Explain why most countries have ceased financing our debt by buying t-bills. Go ahead.

Briticent
02-08-2011, 08:19 AM
If you read carefully, you would pick up that I'm saying that you buying used games does not benefit the developers at all. They don't get anything from it.

If I buy a used game the developer DOES benefit. In order for me to buy a used game someone else has to have sold it in the first place. There are lots of kids who use the sale of their older games to buy the newer games.

If I wasn't buying the used games those kids wouldn't be able to sell their old ones which would mean they would be buying less new games.

It's pretty much like pirating a game and paying the torrent site.

You are an idiot.

It's not so much "taking away your ability to buy used games" but making sure they see the fruits of their hard labor.

They do see the fruits of their hard labour and they are also taking away my ability to buy used games.

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 08:20 AM
Wow. The exact same 3 usual suspects who hate consumer's rights to resale and copy pasting ludicrous statements about used games being piracy. Im pretty sure GirlPower23 has a template just for this kind of thread.

There's no point in arguing with them because they are utterly convinced that consumers have no rights and resale is no better than stealing. You can't speak logic in the face of crazy.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/09/first-sale-doctrine/

MrChris
02-08-2011, 08:24 AM
used games ahhh yes

I will likely be repeating what others have said, but despite console games being resellable, being one of the few good features of a console; it is still hated by publishers (and in turn devs, since angry publisher is bad!)

does that publisher want you to buy a second hand game for less money, especially when that money just goes to the shop and not them, hell no dammit

you could have been buying the game new and giving them money

tbh publishers have been looking to kill this market for a long time (they just preferred whining about piracy on the PC instead) I guess they just wanted a good excuse to do it

looks like Sony got one

as for rights and ♥♥♥♥, ha now thats a thought, that not a lot of people in business care about :p

jeffreydean1
02-08-2011, 08:26 AM
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/09/first-sale-doctrine/

1) That does not currently apply to physical console games.
2) This is a trend, fueled by anti-consumer, pro-corporation shills such as yourself slowly eroding at the rights of consumers.

Maybe you enjoy having less rights. That's fine, feel free to stab yourself in the face, I dont care, but don't advocate taking away MY rights.

Anyway, this is my single response to you seeing as all you did was open up your template and copy that irrelevant link for the 100th time.

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 08:29 AM
tbh publishers have been looking to kill this market for a long time (they just preferred whining about piracy on the PC instead) I guess they just wanted a good excuse to do it

looks like Sony got one

Can't blame them. With a revenue of 560,000,000USD from used game sales, from just gamestop alone.. is phenomenal. Yes I'm aware thats not profit.. the point is thats a lot of money earned from sales, money that could go to publishers and subsequently developers.

DARKNIGHT
02-08-2011, 08:32 AM
Put it this way. Anyone who says that buying second hand games is as bad as piracy is either a troll or an idiot.

Take your pick.

I wont take my pick, heres why.

Used games is as bad as piracy, actually its WORSE, a company is making profit from used games and ordering fewer and fewer fresh copies from the publishers, developers because that would be more expensive for them. You dont see a pirate making a profit burning copies of a game, movie, cd or whatever else because they dont need to, they will just tell their buddies where to download it, im not defending piracy here as there is no sense in doing so but you gotta admit that used games is hurting the game industry more then you think it does.

Imo pirates are bad, but i think the shops that offer used games for their own profit are a lot worse, they were suffering pretty hard since digital distribution exploded and they found a new gap in the market for them to profit in, if these companies would consider handing over like 50% of the used games profits to their respective publishers, developers, i might have let it slide and say good game to them, but they wont.

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 08:34 AM
Maybe you enjoy having less rights. That's fine, feel free to stab yourself in the face, I dont care, but don't advocate taking away MY rights.

Anyway, this is my single response to you seeing as all you did was open up your template and copy that irrelevant link for the 100th time.

It's very relevant to this thread very much so sweetie. Read the Op, and see how relevant it truly is. If the article is true.. it's so very much relevant. However, ignorance is bliss.. is it not?

Briticent
02-08-2011, 08:35 AM
I wont take my pick, heres why.

Used games is as bad as piracy, actually its WORSE

Here let me help you pick one.

You are an idiot.

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 08:38 AM
Here let me help you pick one.

You are an idiot.

Do you ever post anything relevant or are insults your flavour?

Briticent
02-08-2011, 08:39 AM
Do you ever post anything relevant or are insults your flavour?

I have posted plenty of relevant points in this thread alone. However, anyone who compares second-hand sales to piracy really is an idiot.

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 08:42 AM
I have posted plenty of relevant points in this thread alone. However, anyone who compares second-hand sales to piracy really is an idiot.

Then post why they aren't the same. Give us a compelling argument as to why they are different other then "You are an idiot."

Eriako
02-08-2011, 08:43 AM
I have posted plenty of relevant points in this thread alone. However, anyone who compares second-hand sales to piracy really is an idiot.

It doesn't make them an "idiot", but I would like to see actual information on used games (which was provided, I'm not saying it wasn't) instead of comparisons to a loaded word like piracy. Comparing one thing to another isn't the most effective way of arguing a point, I'd rather separate it from other things and singularly discuss its merits and downfalls.

EDIT: Also, thanks for the links. I'll definitely read them, and next time I'm on the school database I'll try to look for some primary sources.

DARKNIGHT
02-08-2011, 08:47 AM
I have posted plenty of relevant points in this thread alone. However, anyone who compares second-hand sales to piracy really is an idiot.

Really?

If I buy a used game the developer DOES benefit. In order for me to buy a used game someone else has to have sold it in the first place. There are lots of kids who use the sale of their older games to buy the newer games.


The developer does benefit ONCE from that copy you bought brand new, but it can be resold 10 times, which the developer doesnt get a penny from, selling the game 10 times over instead of selling brand new copies is just evil, so the used game costs for example 40 dollar, if its resold 10 times, thats 400 dollars right there that the developer doesnt get, but if it were new copies at 60 times 10, 600 dollars straight to the developer, its just evil and it needs to be stopped.

Also your insults, well thanks! but i dont care, the report button will enjoy them.

Briticent
02-08-2011, 08:49 AM
Really?

The developer does benefit ONCE from that copy you bought brand new, but it can be resold 10 times, which the developer doesnt get a penny from, selling the game 10 times over instead of selling brand new copies is just evil, so the used game costs for example 40 dollar, if its resold 10 times, thats 400 dollars right there that the developer doesnt get, but if it were new copies at 60 times 10, 600 dollars straight to the developer, its just evil and it needs to be stopped.

You are a complete and utter idiot.

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 08:50 AM
You are a complete and utter idiot.

Look another one... :rolleyes:

DARKNIGHT
02-08-2011, 08:51 AM
Look another one... :rolleyes:

Yeah what else is new? i should have waited with reporting the previous insult at me and included this latest one, but i guess i will just report him again.

ledbelly
02-08-2011, 08:52 AM
I wont take my pick, heres why.

Used games is as bad as piracy, actually its WORSE, a company is making profit from used games and ordering fewer and fewer fresh copies from the publishers, developers because that would be more expensive for them. You dont see a pirate making a profit burning copies of a game, movie, cd or whatever else because they dont need to, they will just tell their buddies where to download it, im not defending piracy here as there is no sense in doing so but you gotta admit that used games is hurting the game industry more then you think it does.

i'm sorry, but the used games market has been there for as long as there has been consoles. it's not a new thing at all. publishers complaining about it isn't a new thing either.

there used to be small specialised shops, bakeries, butchers, etc. of course they're all disappearing now because they can't compete with the huge supermarket chains.

that's a total ♥♥♥♥♥, but that's capitalism.

despite the used games sales and even piracy, the big publishers and developers are still making money. black ops made over a billion dollars for goodness sake.

Briticent
02-08-2011, 08:52 AM
Look another one... :rolleyes:

Does Bobby Kotic pay you and your fellow idiots a banana for every "second hand sales are piracy and evil" post you make on here?

Briticent
02-08-2011, 08:53 AM
Yeah what else is new? i should have waited with reporting the previous insult at me and included this latest one, but i guess i will just report him again.

Mummy! The nasty man on the Internets called me an idiot when I said second hand sales are worse than piracy!

Waaaaaaaaaaaaah!

DARKNIGHT
02-08-2011, 08:56 AM
i'm sorry, but the used games market has been there as long as there has been consoles. it's not a new thing at all. publishers complaining about it isn't a new thing either.

there used to be small specialised shops, bakeries, butchers, etc. of course they're all disappearing now because they can't compete with the huge supermarket chains.

that's a total ♥♥♥♥♥, but that's capitalism.

despite the used games sales and even piracy, the big publishers and developers are still making money. black ops made over a billion dollars for goodness sake.

Yes i know that used games market has always been there, but back then it really wasnt such a big deal, sure the stores that offered it got some profit from that, but now their profit margins from used games is almost on par with newly sold copies, all im saying is that now they are exploiting the games industry to cope with the losses they got when digital distribution market and this time it is hurting the developers pretty badly.

Mummy! The nasty man on the Internets called me an idiot when I said second hand sales are worse than piracy!

Waaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Hah, can we please grow up! im 29 okay, i dont need to run to anyone screaming ive been called an idiot on the internet, im used to that, the only reason why i reported you was simply because it is against the forums rules to selectively insult people!

Eriako
02-08-2011, 08:56 AM
Mummy! The nasty man on the Internets called me an idiot when I said second hand sales are worse than piracy!

Waaaaaaaaaaaaah!

...I'm on your side of the issue, but this really isn't constructive. You could talk about how used games sales are beneficial to you personally, or enhanced your gaming experiences, or opened you to new genres or developers for which you do pay to buy new games, or allowed you to buy a new console more quickly, etc.

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 09:00 AM
despite the used games sales and even piracy, the big publishers and developers are still making money. black ops made over a billion dollars for goodness sake.
So because they had a revenue of 1billion that they don't deserve to profit from their other games that are being traded around like a village bicycle? A game their developers worked hard on. While I only wish the worst on Activision, I don't for their developers. They work their butts off, see very little of the money they helped activision earn.. and you have the gull to say its okay to take money from them with used game sales?


but now their profit margins from used games is almost on par with newly sold copies, all im saying is that now they are exploiting the games industry to cope with the losses they got when digital distribution market and this time it is hurting the developers pretty badly.


Gamestops Profits of used game sales are nearly double that of new game sales. :)

Briticent
02-08-2011, 09:01 AM
...I'm on your side of the issue, but this really isn't constructive. You could talk about how used games sales are beneficial to you personally, or enhanced your gaming experiences, or opened you to new genres or developers for which you do pay to buy new games, or allowed you to buy a new console more quickly, etc.

I was actually doing just that at the start of the thread. However the three or four posters here trotting out the "second hand game sales are worse than piracy" nonsense post these exact same replies every time this subject crops up.

It's literally a copy and paste job that they do.

jeffreydean1
02-08-2011, 09:01 AM
OMG you guys are SOOOO right!

Used car sales killed the auto industry!
Used music sales killed the music industry!
Used movie sales killed the movie industry!
Used book sales killed the book industry!
Used furniture sales killed the furniture industry!
Used comics killed the comics industry!


Recycling killed the paper mills and plastic manufacturers!

I think we need to stop all legal resale right away! Our corporate masters are losing profits!

And while we're at it! How DARE libraries give away copies of books and music! I mean, the publishers dont see that money from all those lost sales! Do away with libraries!

Old used games no longer being manufactured? Competition! Just because the publisher doesnt sell the game anymore doesnt give you the right to resell something you bought or be able to spend money to play it! You can just buy the latest copy of something you dont want instead!

I say we rally to BAN swap meets and church sales! Lets march on main street and ban the used book shops! Let's make sure the local auto sales guy only sells clean NEW cars! Old cars should be scrapped since the manufacturers dont make money on their sale! Durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Briticent
02-08-2011, 09:03 AM
OMG you guys are SOOOO right!

Used car sales killed the auto industry!
Used music sales killed the music industry!
Used movie sales killed the movie industry!
Used book sales killed the book industry!
Used furniture sales killed the furniture industry!
Used comics killed the comics industry!

Garage sales killed the garage industry!
Yard sales killed the yard industry!

jeffreydean1
02-08-2011, 09:03 AM
So because they had a revenue of 1billion that they don't deserve to profit from their other games that are being traded around like a village bicycle?

How DARE you advocate bicycle piracy! Do you have any idea the amount of work that goes into making that fine piece of machinery? The parts need to be manufactured and assembled! Bike piracy costs us JOBS!

ledbelly
02-08-2011, 09:04 AM
Yes i know that used games market has always been there, but back then it really wasnt such a big deal, sure the stores that offered it got some profit from that, but now their profit margins from used games is almost on par with newly sold copies, all im saying is that now they are exploiting the games industry to cope with the losses they got when digital distribution market and this time it is hurting the developers pretty badly.

you're probably right in that the used games market has gotten bigger, but at the same time, the games market as a whole has gotten bigger.

when a single game can make over a billion dollars - despite piracy and used games sales - it goes to show just how big the industry is now. it was also pirated a lot a might add.

notavirus.exe
02-08-2011, 09:05 AM
Used car sales killed the auto industry!
Used music sales killed the music industry!
Used movie sales killed the movie industry!
Used book sales killed the book industry!
Used furniture sales killed the furniture industry!
Used comics killed the comics industry!



This has always been my point and shows exactly where I stand on the matter.

Developers are just sour that the used/resale industry is making so much.

Eriako
02-08-2011, 09:05 AM
you're probably right in that the used games market has got bigger, but at the same time, the games market as a whole has gotten bigger.

when a single game can make over a billion dollars - despite piracy and used games sales - it goes to show just how big the industry is now. it was also pirated a lot a might add.

Plus a lot of the older console's games aren't being produced anymore, so the used sales of those also figure in the the overall amount, whereas they didn't back in 2003 when that first survey was taken. Maybe they took that into account, but I didn't see it.

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 09:07 AM
It's literally a copy and paste job that they do.

Funny, I just recall another poster who said this same thing. Copy and paste job much? ;)

How DARE you advocate bicycle piracy! Do you have any idea the amount of work that goes into making that fine piece of machinery? The parts need to be manufactured and assembled! Bike piracy costs us JOBS!

We need Bahamas back, his troll posts were at least funny.

Old used games no longer being manufactured? Competition! Just because the publisher doesnt sell the game anymore doesnt give you the right to resell something you bought or be able to spend money to play it! You can just buy the latest copy of something you dont want instead!

Pretty sure I see old games popup all the time on Xbox, PSN and Wii stores.. interesting no?

jeffreydean1
02-08-2011, 09:10 AM
We need Bahamas back, his troll posts were at least funny.

Im using your exact same logic you applied to used games and applied it to your own comment about bicycles. Im not trying to be funny, Im demonstrating how pathetic your logic is.


Pretty sure I see old games popup all the time on Xbox, PSN and Wii stores.. interesting no?

Yeah, because every old game ever made is available in those venues, not less than 1% amirite?

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 09:10 AM
you're probably right in that the used games market has gotten bigger, but at the same time, the games market as a whole has gotten bigger.

when a single game can make over a billion dollars - despite piracy and used games sales - it goes to show just how big the industry is now. it was also pirated a lot a might add.

One game that was successful does not equate to the whole industry. Like I said, gamestops revenue last year from used game sale was 560million. If the industry is only worth 10billion. Feel free to tell me the % that gamestop is taking from them. This is one company, there are others as well who do the very same thing.

ledbelly
02-08-2011, 09:13 AM
So because they had a revenue of 1billion that they don't deserve to profit from their other games that are being traded around like a village bicycle? A game their developers worked hard on. While I only wish the worst on Activision, I don't for their developers. They work their butts off, see very little of the money they helped activision earn.. and you have the gull to say its okay to take money from them with used game sales?

i was just using that as an indicator of how big the industry is. if it's a good game, generally it will make money, still.

no other business gets a free pass in this world (unless it's a bank :p) so why should the gaming industry get special privileges?

jeffreydean1
02-08-2011, 09:15 AM
One game that was successful does not equate to the whole industry. Like I said, gamestops revenue last year from used game sale was 560million. If the industry is only worth 10billion. Feel free to tell me the % that gamestop is taking from them. This is one company, there are others as well who do the very same thing.

Why do you feel like you can call every used game sale a lost sale to the manufacturer? Many used games are bought by people who simply cannot afford new ones. That is NOT a lost sale and should not be counted as such. Used game sales are perfectly legal as are all the things I mentioned in my previous post. With the games industry making more money than ever before, even in the face of modern technology and rampant piracy, I find it downright hilarious that you shills are NOW deciding to regurgitate 'facts' about how the used game industry is killing gaming.

DARKNIGHT
02-08-2011, 09:16 AM
you're probably right in that the used games market has gotten bigger, but at the same time, the games market as a whole has gotten bigger.

when a single game can make over a billion dollars - despite piracy and used games sales - it goes to show just how big the industry is now. it was also pirated a lot a might add.

As i was just about to say, this isnt about one game, but Girlpower was faster. the thing is though, yes black ops made an impressive ammount of money for a game that is imo overhyped garbage, but that aside, this issue is bigger then one succesfull game.

One game that was successful does not equate to the whole industry. Like I said, gamestops revenue last year from used game sale was 560million. If the industry is only worth 10billion. Feel free to tell me the % that gamestop is taking from them. This is one company, there are others as well who do the very same thing.

560 million, thats scary, so like 30 to 35% of that is newly sold items? xD

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 09:18 AM
i was just using that as an indicator of how big the industry is. if it's a good game, generally it will make money, still.

no other business gets a free pass in this world (unless it's a bank :p) so why should the gaming industry get special privileges?

They don't but it looks like the console game market might be shifting to protect its intellectual property. Which is fine with me, they worked hard to produce it, they deserve every cent of that money and not losing any of it to Second Hand Sales. Also we may get lucky and GameStop/game and whoever else may start stocking PC Games if it becomes an industry standard for console developers to include license (Serials) on their future games or as I said earlier, GameStop goes Bankrupt, a lot of jaded PC Gamers become happier, publisher become happier, the world becomes a better place. ;P Thats just wishful thinking, but the inevitable end to brick and mortar stores would come a lot sooner.

notavirus.exe
02-08-2011, 09:21 AM
To put it simply. Some people cannot afford new games. Used sales allows them to still participate in the culture and entertainment experience.

If you take that away, your audience size will shrink. It won't go away but it will shrink.

Another point to be made, if Gamestop no longer distributes used games, ebay and craigslist will pick up the slack. It will never stop.

jeffreydean1
02-08-2011, 09:22 AM
They don't but

So you admit that the gaming industry deserves no special rights and privileges over every other industry. Good, I knew you'd see the light. /thread

ledbelly
02-08-2011, 09:23 AM
Plus a lot of the older console's games aren't being produced anymore, so the used sales of those also figure in the the overall amount, whereas they didn't back in 2003 when that first survey was taken. Maybe they took that into account, but I didn't see it.

i can see a lot of used PS2 games still being sold actually. i imagine that a much bigger percentage would be newer games now though.

i don't deny that the used games market is pretty big, it's just that despite it, the publishers and developers are still making money.

jeffreydean1
02-08-2011, 09:25 AM
To put it simply. Some people cannot afford new games. Used sales allows them to still participate in the culture and entertainment experience.

If you take that away, your audience size will shrink. It won't go away but it will shrink.

Another point to be made, if Gamestop no longer distributes used games, ebay and craigslist will pick up the slack. It will never stop.


Another point to be made is that the people who cannot afford used games will not just stop gaming if used games disappear. They will simply switch to piracy. Say what you want about Gamestop, but they DO sell millions of legitimate NEW games every year. When was the last time a pirate sold millions of legitimate new games? Not to mention how many gamers try a new game series out used and then buys every next one new! (I used to do that for years, so I could try a series cheaply before investing too much in it)

Nuklear41
02-08-2011, 09:25 AM
Looks like Gamefly is about to go out of business.

wakeless0
02-08-2011, 09:26 AM
I have no argument.

[insert random insult]

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 09:28 AM
So you admit that the gaming industry deserves no special rights and privileges over every other industry. Good, I knew you'd see the light. /thread

They don't but every business has a right to protect it's property. Don't snip my post and act like the rest doesn't exist. Sony merely wants to protect it's products and so do publishers. By introducing licensing it completely puts a stopper on used game sales for that specific console. Thus they are invoking their right to protect their IPs.. which is no more special than Ford, Toyota, whoever else leasing out new vehicles.


i don't deny that the used games market is pretty big, it's just that despite it, the publishers and developers are still making money.

So it's okay for them not to earn 100% Profit on their products instead 80/20%? Thats not right.. at all.

jeffreydean1
02-08-2011, 09:29 AM
I think these people who claim to be SOOOO concerned about the developers should look at the single worst thing that ever happened to developers: Publishers. Publishers 'steal' far more from developers than used games. Publishers are increasingly irrelevant in an age of digital distribution as well. Why dont you focus some of that crazed anger on publishers, thew biggest thieves of all? The publishers who push out games before they're ready, the publishers who take most of the revenue from the people that actually created the game!

ledbelly
02-08-2011, 09:30 AM
As i was just about to say, this isnt about one game, but Girlpower was faster. the thing is though, yes black ops made an impressive ammount of money for a game that is imo overhyped garbage, but that aside, this issue is bigger then one succesfull game.

no, as i wrote in my other post, i was using that as an indicator of the size of the market as a whole. most games do not need to make that kind of money to make a profit.


They don't but it looks like the console game market might be shifting to protect its intellectual property. Which is fine with me, they worked hard to produce it, they deserve every cent of that money and not losing any of it to Second Hand Sales. Also we may get lucky and GameStop/game and whoever else may start stocking PC Games if it becomes an industry standard for console developers to include license (Serials) on their future games or as I said earlier, GameStop goes Bankrupt, a lot of jaded PC Gamers become happier, publisher become happier, the world becomes a better place. ;P Thats just wishful thinking, but the inevitable end to brick and mortar stores would come a lot sooner.

well, i do wonder if any lawsuits will be made by companies like gamestop if that ended up happening.

jeffreydean1
02-08-2011, 09:32 AM
They don't but every business has a right to protect it's property. Don't snip my post and act like the rest doesn't exist. Sony merely wants to protect it's products and so do publishers. By introducing licensing it completely puts a stopper on used game sales for that specific console. Thus they are invoking their right to protect their IPs.. which is no more special than Ford, Toyota, whoever else leasing out new vehicles.

That's funny. I must have missed the article about Ford forcing you to use a special serial number on your truck that applies only to you, and making the vehicle inoperable legally to any other driver including your spouse, children, friends, or relatives.

I could be wrong, but I think if Ford were to do that, the proverbial ♥♥♥♥e might hit the fan, as well it should here too.

Mordwyrhta
02-08-2011, 09:32 AM
Couldn't care less what happens to the console gaming industry.
Good PC games existed before consoles, good ones will exist after consoles.

If anything it might force companies to start making quality games instead of disposable crap.

Pulseezar
02-08-2011, 09:32 AM
Meh, I expect digital distribution will be at least an option with the next generation of consoles and physical copies will phase out or become a small percentage of total sales by the generation after that, so used games sales will die out eventually anyway.

Oh and you can't compare 1 industry to another, selling a used car is not the same as selling a used game. Same applies to music and movies before you claim they're alike.

notavirus.exe
02-08-2011, 09:33 AM
Couldn't care less what happens to the console gaming industry.
Good PC games existed before consoles, good ones will exist after consoles.

If anything it might force companies to start making quality games instead of disposable crap.

Consoles aren't going anywhere, but I wouldn't be surprised if they started using activation codes for some new 2011 titles.

That would kill used sales and turn a console into a low budget pc with a controller.

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 09:34 AM
I think these people who claim to be SOOOO concerned about the developers should look at the single worst thing that ever happened to developers: Publishers. Publishers 'steal' far more from developers than used games. Publishers are increasingly irrelevant in an age of digital distribution as well. Why dont you focus some of that crazed anger on publishers, thew biggest thieves of all? The publishers who push out games before they're ready, the publishers who take most of the revenue from the people that actually created the game!

Because said developers sold out to said publishers. You can't hate on a developer for such a thing, nor can you hate the publishers. While I do have a strong dislike for how Activision Operates, it's the developers fault for allowing such an acquisition. While a hostile bid can easily win a company, this isn't always the case and many merely sale out, others are looking for bigger potential that they could never have if not for a publisher. Not every company is self sufficient as Valve, and if not for Steam.. I'd be willing to bet Valve would be owned by now by one of the big publishers.

jeffreydean1
02-08-2011, 09:34 AM
So it's okay for them not to earn 100% Profit on their products instead 80/20%? Thats not right.. at all.

1) Under that logic any retailer (or Steam for that matter) is stealing from the developers and publishers since the devs NEVER make anywhere near 100% of new sales.

2) Are you claiming that the devs/publishers were never paid for that game now being sold used? Every used game out there has already been bought and paid for.

DARKNIGHT
02-08-2011, 09:36 AM
To put it simply. Some people cannot afford new games. Used sales allows them to still participate in the culture and entertainment experience.

If you take that away, your audience size will shrink. It won't go away but it will shrink.

Another point to be made, if Gamestop no longer distributes used games, ebay and craigslist will pick up the slack. It will never stop.

Oh you are right, it will never stop, but gamestop needs to play fair game and give atleast some of their profits to the developers, that would be the best solution, no more online pass, no serial codes on consoles and everybody is happy, because its already slightly annoying to enter a serial key on a pc, especially the longer ones, imagine that with a controller? going to be a lot of rants from people that find it just a pain in the ♥♥♥ to do it with every new game that has it.

Really, im not saying the used game market should die, because it cant, as you said ebay and craigslist will then be in favor, which would eliminate a company making absurd ammounts of money from used sales, as those 2 are just the middle man between 2 people wanting to sell/buy or trade.

jeffreydean1
02-08-2011, 09:36 AM
Because said developers sold out to said publishers. You can't hate on a developer for such a thing, nor can you hate the publishers. While I do have a strong dislike for how Activision Operates, it's the developers fault for allowing such an acquisition. While a hostile bid can easily win a company, this isn't always the case and many merely sale out, others are looking for bigger potential that they could never have if not for a publisher. Not every company is self sufficient as Valve, and if not for Steam.. I'd be willing to bet Valve would be owned by now by one of the big publishers.

You DO realize that not all (or even most) dev studios arent OWNED by their publishers right? Just checking.

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 09:38 AM
2) Are you claiming that the devs/publishers were never paid for that game now being sold used? Every used game out there has already been bought and paid for.

Why yes it was bought and paid for, but for every used game, bought by XXX and Resold by XXX is one game they don't have to re-order from XXX Publisher. Thus lost profit for the publisher.

You DO realize that not all (or even most) dev studios arent OWNED by their publishers right? Just checking

Yes I do realize this, some are signed on for XXX Year, such as Id Software with ZaniMax, That doesn't make my post less relevant. These developers needed better fundage and these publisher provide it. A lot of these developers simply cannot afford 50-100million productions w.o the help of publishers. So who is the evil one? The Developers or the Publishers who are merely providing a service?

jeffreydean1
02-08-2011, 09:39 AM
Oh you are right, it will never stop, but gamestop needs to play fair game and give atleast some of their profits to the developers.

Why do you feel that the gaming industry should be given special privileges that no other industry is given? And really? 'Play fair'? In a fair world, people would be able to resell the things they own, a right which is slowly being eroded by people like you. But unfortunately for both of us the world just isn't fair now is it?

jeffreydean1
02-08-2011, 09:40 AM
Why yes it was bought and paid for, but for every used game, bought by XXX and Resold by XXX is one game they don't have to re-order from XXX Publisher. Thus lost profit for the publisher.

You're basing that entire assumption on the idea that the market for used games is the same as the market for new games, and that a customer would always buy a game new if they couldn't find it used with is patently false in both regards.

DARKNIGHT
02-08-2011, 09:43 AM
Why do you feel that the gaming industry should be given special privileges that no other industry is given? And really? 'Play fair'? In a fair world, people would be able to resell the things they own, a right which is slowly being eroded by people like you. But unfortunately for both of us the world just isn't fair now is it?

As i said before, in the ole days it wasnt a big issue to trade in games, but it has become so huge now, no other industry can match the ammount of profit being made from second hand stuff, you dont see car dealers make 60% more profit from used cars compared to new cars, and its the same everywhere else.

Mordwyrhta
02-08-2011, 09:43 AM
Consoles aren't going anywhere, but I wouldn't be surprised if they started using activation codes for some new 2011 titles.

That would kill used sales and turn a console into a low budget pc with a controller.

Consoles already are a low budget PC with a controller.

Sure, they have access to used games but PC games are usually 10 to 20 dollars cheaper when new, so when you add it all up the amount of money they spend on games, even when buying used and new games, is probably comparable.

Add Steam sales into the mix and PC gaming is probably cheaper in the long run.

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 09:48 AM
Another point to be made, if Gamestop no longer distributes used games, ebay and craigslist will pick up the slack. It will never stop.

While Craigslist would get away with it cause its the scum of the earth. Ebay on the other hand won't be able to. Feel free to go back a page or so and look at the article I linked. Once they add licensing, whether in the form of serials or something else.. Sony and any other publisher has the right to pursue legal action. Ebay would comply with any publisher requests to remove XXX from their listings.

jeffreydean1
02-08-2011, 09:48 AM
As i said before, in the ole days it wasnt a big issue to trade in games, but it has become so huge now, no other industry can match the ammount of profit being made from second hand stuff, you dont see car dealers make 60% more profit from used cars compared to new cars, and its the same everywhere else.

Are you SERIOUS? You dont think used car dealerships make more money off of used cars than new ones? There are entire chains devoted to selling nothing BUT used cars and don't so much as OFFER new ones! Are you claiming that used book shops make more money on their occasional supply of new books than on used ones? How about used record shops?

You cant just cherry pick one chain and claim that every game shop is exactly the same. For every Gamestop there is a Steam, just like for every used car dealership there is a new car dealership. The gaming industry is no different in that regard than any other industry.

jeffreydean1
02-08-2011, 09:51 AM
While Craigslist would get away with it cause its the scum of the earth.

Craigslist scum? Wow... you REALLY hate people being able to sell the things they buy... I mean really? One of the most customer friendly websites in the world who refuses to sell out and offers fantastic service for free or close to nothing and you call them the 'scum of the earth'? There really IS no reasoning with you.

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 09:55 AM
Craigslist scum? Wow... you REALLY hate people being able to sell the things they buy... I mean really? One of the most customer friendly websites in the world who refuses to sell out and offers fantastic service for free or close to nothing and you call them the 'scum of the earth'? There really IS no reasoning with you.

In fear of getting this thread closed, perhaps step back and stop trolling. For the longest time craiglist was full of predators looking to purchase things such as underage prostitution, it took awhile but that portion of craiglist was shut down if I recall. So please spare me your little white Knighting because Craiglist is full of thieves, prostitutes and predators. Thus scum of the earth.. however I guess if you call offering such services to the world "Customer friendly" so be it.. strokes for different people.

DARKNIGHT
02-08-2011, 09:58 AM
Are you SERIOUS? You dont think used car dealerships make more money off of used cars than new ones? There are entire chains devoted to selling nothing BUT used cars and don't so much as OFFER new ones! Are you claiming that used book shops make more money on their occasional supply of new books than on used ones? How about used record shops?

You cant just cherry pick one chain and claim that every game shop is exactly the same. For every Gamestop there is a Steam, just like for every used car dealership there is a new car dealership. The gaming industry is no different in that regard than any other industry.

Well ok wrong anology then!

The reason why i said that is because it will affect me as a gamer, even though i play mostly on pc which doesnt suffer as much from used games, the thing is, with the coporate greed of gamestop, developers get less money, less money means more ♥♥♥♥ games being made and ported to PC, which does affect me, the quality of games from recent is anything from EPIC GOOD FUN, theres really not much on the game market that makes me feel excited about, and i also blame used game market for it, you can disagree all you want but in the end you cant deny that less income for developers means games not being made to their full potention and more DLC later down the road to make money of the ideas and things that should have been in the game in the first place.

Anyways, call me mad, insane, but thats just how i think about it.

jeffreydean1
02-08-2011, 10:01 AM
In fear of getting this thread closed, perhaps step back and stop trolling. For the longest time craiglist was full of predators looking to purchase things such as underage prostitution, it took awhile but that portion of craiglist was shut down if I recall. So please spare me your little white Knighting because Craiglist is full of thieves, prostitutes and predators. Thus scum of the earth.. however I guess if you call offering such services to the world "Customer friendly" so be it.. strokes for different people.

All of which has been purged from their pages and is monitored and deleted at extraordinary cost. Blaming a service for the actions of its customers, especially when said company goes out of its way to remove such customers, is the depths of intellectual dishonesty. Anyway, back to the topic at hand. And kindly stop with the name calling. Im not trolling here any more than you are. Just because we disagree with each other doesn't make either of us trolls.

jeffreydean1
02-08-2011, 10:05 AM
Well ok wrong anology then!

The reason why i said that is because it will affect me as a gamer, even though i play mostly on pc which doesnt suffer as much from used games, the thing is, with the coporate greed of gamestop, developers get less money, less money means more ♥♥♥♥ games being made and ported to PC, which does affect me, the quality of games from recent is anything from EPIC GOOD FUN, theres really not much on the game market that makes me feel excited about, and i also blame used game market for it, you can disagree all you want but in the end you cant deny that less income for developers means games not being made to their full potention and more DLC later down the road to make money of the ideas and things that should have been in the game in the first place.

Anyways, call me mad, insane, but thats just how i think about it.

I find it odd that you blame used game sales for things that are traditionally the fault of the publisher. It's publishers that push out generic crap like Black Ops, it's the publishers that demand sequels be dumbed down for the masses (See Gothic 4 for a recent example) It's publishers that take increasingly large hunks of income away from the developers and are rushing to maintain a stranglehold on distribution even in a digital age where developers don't need them anymore. Blaming used games for all of that is... well... just wrong.

notavirus.exe
02-08-2011, 10:09 AM
While Craigslist would get away with it cause its the scum of the earth. Ebay on the other hand won't be able to. Feel free to go back a page or so and look at the article I linked. Once they add licensing, whether in the form of serials or something else.. Sony and any other publisher has the right to pursue legal action. Ebay would comply with any publisher requests to remove XXX from their listings.

I'll have to check it out.

I don't have any legitimate data or links to studies, but I can nearly guarantee that if something bad happens to the used game industry that effects the cheap prices. A large portion if not all of the audience that is considered lower income or budget gamers will dissappear or buy less games altogether.

Jinoruizraged
02-08-2011, 10:11 AM
I can only hope it's the end of use console sales. Why? Well because, I want to see GameStop go out of business and bankrupt for treating PC Gamers like second class citizens and used game sales are bad for Developers/Publishers. So I certainly hope this is the final nail in it's coffin.

Digital Distribution hurts their business. I don't blame them for they're "treatment" of PC games. It also isn't really their fault people cater more to consoles considering how simple they are to use.

This sort of thing won't kill Gamestop. It won't even hinder their business.

Nothing is really confirmed anyways.

jeffreydean1
02-08-2011, 10:13 AM
I'll have to check it out.

I don't have any legitimate data or links to studies, but I can nearly guarantee that if something bad happens to the used game industry that effects the cheap prices. A large portion if not all of the audience that is considered lower income or budget gamers will dissappear or buy less games altogether.

And/or contribute to even MORE piracy. Make no mistake, doing away with used games on consoles will cause a MASSIVE spike in console piracy. At least then us PC gamers won't be branded with the stigma of the most pirated system.

DARKNIGHT
02-08-2011, 10:17 AM
I find it odd that you blame used game sales for things that are traditionally the fault of the publisher. It's publishers that push out generic crap like Black Ops, it's the publishers that demand sequels be dumbed down for the masses (See Gothic 4 for a recent example) It's publishers that take increasingly large hunks of income away from the developers and are rushing to maintain a stranglehold on distribution even in a digital age where developers don't need them anymore. Blaming used games for all of that is... well... just wrong.

I know its wrong for many, its right in my mind, but im not blaming the entire used game market for it, and you are correct, it also has to do with evil crap publishers like activision, but used games is feuling a great deal of it though, publishers also get a cut from new games being sold, they miss out as well, forcing them to be even more evil to the game developers and cut corners, ok bobby kotick is the extreme example and he truely only cares for money, but EA is now having BIOWARE working on 3 games at the same time, i can tell you, their quality is getting lower, mass effect 1 was so much deeper then 2, while 2 is a very good game, it really was lacking stuff that made the first game so long and offer great replayability, in other words they are cutting corners to get the games out on time so the publisher stays in profit.

EA did this before as well, then they got slapped in the face for it by the gaming community, but now that incomes are down quite a bit, they are doing it again, but since you can now get a brand spanking new game for quite a bit less on the second hand market, people suddenly dont care?

GirlPower23
02-08-2011, 10:17 AM
Digital Distribution hurts their business. I don't blame them for they're "treatment" of PC games. It also isn't really their fault people cater more to consoles considering how simple they are to use.

This sort of thing won't kill Gamestop. It won't even hinder their business.

Nothing is really confirmed anyways.

You blame Digital Distro harming their business, isn't it very important for a business to evolve and go with the times. GameStop ignored it and thought it would not be a problem for many years and now it's biting them where the sun doesn't shine. It's not Valves, D2D, Impulse, GamersGate that is hurting their business, it was their own stupidity that hurt their business for not evolving, and if it's confirmed it will hurt their business. While I can't give exact numbers on PS3 used sales, I've given numbers on used game sales which is 31% of their annual revenue and 40% of their Gross Profit. New Retail is 20% of their gross profit. So tell me, how won't it hur their business? GameStop is very very dependent on Used Game sales, if it's adopted by Sony, it won't be long before MS follows and does the same thing. While it won't force Bankruptcy on them.. it will cause a lot of problems. GameStop brought it all on themselves for not going with the times and trying to prevent it for as long as possible. Fortunately Steam has prevailed for PC Gamers and if Sony does Confirm this licensing thing.. it's just going to further hurt GameStop.

Eriako
02-08-2011, 10:22 AM
You blame Digital Distro harming their business, isn't it very important for a business to evolve and go with the times. GameStop ignored it and thought it would not be a problem for many years and now it's biting them where the sun doesn't shine. It's not Valves, D2D, Impulse, GamersGate that is hurting their business, it was their own stupidity that hurt their business for not evolving, and if it's confirmed it will hurt their business. While I can't give exact numbers on PS3 used sales, I've given numbers on used game sales which is 31% of their annual revenue and 40% of their Gross Profit. New Retail is 20% of their gross profit. So tell me, how won't it hur their business? GameStop is very very dependent on Used Game sales, if it's adopted by Sony, it won't be long before MS follows and does the same thing. While it won't force Bankruptcy on them.. it will cause a lot of problems. GameStop brought it all on themselves for not going with the times and trying to prevent it for as long as possible. Fortunately Steam has prevailed for PC Gamers and if Sony does Confirm this licensing thing.. it's just going to further hurt GameStop.

If the consoles move to digital distribution and something equivalent for those without internet (or those with tiny caps), and can produce the kind of sales that Valve does, then I would probably never buy a used game again.

I am really happy to see them starting to sell old games and small, independent games on PSN and the like for $5-$10 and find that to be entirely reasonable, but the libraries they offer just aren't extensive enough at the moment to let me buy from them exclusively.

Jinoruizraged
02-08-2011, 10:27 AM
No big loss. You care too much, Girlpower23.

Pulseezar
02-08-2011, 10:38 AM
If the consoles move to digital distribution and something equivalent for those without internet (or those with tiny caps), and can produce the kind of sales that Valve does, then I would probably never buy a used game again.

I am really happy to see them starting to sell old games and small, independent games on PSN and the like for $5-$10 and find that to be entirely reasonable, but the libraries they offer just aren't extensive enough at the moment to let me buy from them exclusively.

Mass Effect 2 can be purchased and downloaded through PSN and I expect it wont be too long before digital distribution is available as an option for most new games and maybe as the only way of buying games from ~2020 onwards.

Briticent
02-08-2011, 10:54 AM
Couldn't care less what happens to the console gaming industry.
Good PC games existed before consoles, good ones will exist after consoles.

If anything it might force companies to start making quality games instead of disposable crap.

What does this even mean? It's just a hodge-podge of three completely different and unrelated points.

Mordwyrhta
02-08-2011, 10:56 AM
What does this even mean? It's just a hodge-podge of three completely different and unrelated points.

I was just pointing out that no matter what happens to the console industry, be it their loss of used games or whatever, it has no negative effect on me or others like me (PC only gamers).

A very large percentage of the games I play are PC exclusive.

Eriako
02-08-2011, 11:02 AM
I was just pointing out that no matter what happens to the console industry, be it their loss of used games or whatever, it has no negative effect on me or others like me (PC only gamers).

A very large percentage of the games I play are PC exclusive.

I wish I could have all the games I like in one place, but they're spread over consoles, handheld devices and computers.

Consoles are nice because I don't have to worry about hardware, handhelds are super convenient for when I'm in the hospital or a waiting room, and PC's have a lot of indie games. Unfortunately that means I have to deal with the hate and problems of all three.

Briticent
02-08-2011, 11:04 AM
I was just pointing out that no matter what happens to the console industry, be it their loss of used games or whatever, it has no negative effect on me or others like me (PC only gamers).

A very large percentage of the games I play are PC exclusive.

For what purpose did you point this out? Was it just a teenage epeening rant?

Mordwyrhta
02-08-2011, 11:07 AM
For what purpose did you point this out? Was it just a teenage epeening rant?

*scratches head* how exactly would it be epeening? If I said "I only eat smooth peanut butter" is that flexing my epeen because I don't eat crunchy?

You confuse me.

notavirus.exe
02-08-2011, 11:11 AM
For what purpose did you point this out? Was it just a teenage epeening rant?

Don't be ridiculous.

He/she was just show that they are indifferent to the outcome that will be dealt to the used game industry. They are indifferent because the games he/she plays are mostly PC exclusives. It's not a hard line of logic. :rolleyes:

I wish I could have all the games I like in one place, but they're spread over consoles, handheld devices and computers.

Consoles are nice because I don't have to worry about hardware, handhelds are super convenient for when I'm in the hospital or a waiting room, and PC's have a lot of indie games. Unfortunately that means I have to deal with the hate and problems of all three.

I feel your pain, I suffer from the same characteristic with exception to handhelds. Although I think I'm slowly pulling away from gaming all together. Trying to focus on my career a little more as of late.

velvetmeds
02-08-2011, 11:11 AM
Wish people would just stop buying used stuff. Get it new or don't get it at all.

<- has never bought a used product in his life.

Jinoruizraged
02-08-2011, 11:12 AM
Good for velvetmeds for having enough money for everything he wants.

ledbelly
02-08-2011, 11:13 AM
A very large percentage of the games I play are PC exclusive.

wow... that must be quite a small amount of games you play.

Mordwyrhta
02-08-2011, 11:15 AM
wow... that must be quite a small amount of games you play.

My Steam Library is about 225 games, I'd say 80% of those are PC only.

RTS and Strategy games make up a lot of them.

PC has more exclusive games than any console does because it has almost entire dominion over certain genres like strategy.

Eriako
02-08-2011, 11:15 AM
Good for velvetmeds for having enough money for everything he wants.

Oh well. If people think I'm an blight upon the community for buying used games once in a while so be it. If they get rid of them, I'll probably just play the games at an arcade.

Are arcades with consoles the same as used games and rentals?

velvetmeds
02-08-2011, 11:17 AM
Good for velvetmeds for having enough money for everything he wants.

Nothing to do with that. I just don't buy it if i can't buy it new, used isn't even an option.

Jinoruizraged
02-08-2011, 11:17 AM
Oh well. If people think I'm an blight upon the community for buying used games once in a while so be it. If they get rid of them, I'll probably just play the games at an arcade.

Are arcades with consoles the same as used games and rentals?

Exactly. People resell things all the time. People run out of reasons to use things so they either keep them or throw them out to the garbage.

Recycling's a pro idea yeah? New things are nice but gently used isn't bad either. Damn their pride.

ledbelly
02-08-2011, 11:22 AM
My Steam Library is about 225 games, I'd say 80% of those are PC only.

RTS and Strategy games make up a lot of them.

PC has more exclusive games than any console does because it has almost entire dominion over certain genres like strategy.

okay.

RTS isn't really a genre i'm interested in. i have absolutely no idea what, if any, PC exclusive titles are coming out this year. this is a big year for games as well.

doesn't just playing RTS games bore you?

Mordwyrhta
02-08-2011, 11:29 AM
okay.

RTS isn't really a genre i'm interested in. i have absolutely no idea what, if any, PC exclusive titles are coming out this year. this is a big year for games as well?

doesn't just playing RTS games bore you?

I didn't say I "just" play RTS, I said that a large part of my library are RTS games.

There's also stuff like Mount and Blade, which is again a PC exclusive.

Magicka.

Blizzard games, though they're not bought on Steam.

PC only shooters like Red Orchestra or Killing Floor.

Battlefield 2 (and BF3 is going to have 64 players on PC and only 24 on consoles, so it might as well be PC exclusive since we're getting more features).

Compare some of those to the laughable excuses they have for console exclusives?

Halo, Resistance, Killzone etc, some of the worst shooters ever made.

Generic, short, boring action games. Who the hell pays 60 bucks for 5 to 15 hours of gameplay?

For every 1 game that is exclusive to a console that I'd actually want to play there's probably 10 on PC.

I bought a 360 to play Fable 2. Of course, it sucked really bad and I then sold my 360.

Eriako
02-08-2011, 11:34 AM
You use good examples of PC exclusives, and self-described bad exclusives of console games? Tsk tsk sir, that's not giving it a fair go.

Briticent
02-08-2011, 11:36 AM
*scratches head* how exactly would it be epeening? If I said "I only eat smooth peanut butter" is that flexing my epeen because I don't eat crunchy?

You confuse me.

If you had said something like "I don't care about the marmalading industry. Peanut butter was great before marmalade was invented and it will always be great. Maybe this will result in even better peanut butter being made" then yes, it would be epeening.

ledbelly
02-08-2011, 11:38 AM
I didn't say I "just" play RTS, I said that a large part of my library are RTS games.

There's also stuff like Mount and Blade, which is again a PC exclusive.

Magicka.

Blizzard games, though they're not bought on Steam.

PC only shooters like Red Orchestra or Killing Floor.

Battlefield 2 (and BF3 is going to have 64 players on PC and only 24 on consoles, so it might as well be PC exclusive since we're getting more features).

Compare some of those to the laughable excuses they have for console exclusives?

Halo, Resistance, Killzone etc, some of the worst shooters ever made.

Generic, short, boring action games. Who the hell pays 60 bucks for 5 to 15 hours of gameplay?

For every 1 game that is exclusive to a console that I'd actually want to play there's probably 10 on PC.

I bought a 360 to play Fable 2. Of course, it sucked really bad and I then sold my 360.

there are some good console games as well. uncharted 2 was a good game. it wasn't particularly original, but it was fun to play.

mount & blade got a fairly average metacritic score it seems.
http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/mount-blade

Mordwyrhta
02-08-2011, 11:38 AM
You use good examples of PC exclusives, and self-described bad exclusives of console games? Tsk tsk sir, that's not giving it a fair go.

Well, that's because I can't actually think of a good console exclusive.

Infamous was horrible, and it's usually touted as good by console gamers.

Uncharted was bad, and again is usually touted as being good.

I've played these games, my friend has a Ps3 and when I go over to his place I give them a whirl to see if it gives me a reason to actually purchase a console. I worked for 3 years at Xbox customer support so I got my fill of 360 games while I worked there and the only reason I played them was due to it being my only option at work.

I kind of want to play Red Dead Redemption but I know it'd only hold my interest for a bit before it got boring.

Mordwyrhta
02-08-2011, 11:40 AM
If you had said something like "I don't care about the marmalading industry. Peanut butter was great before marmalade was invented and it will always be great. Maybe this will result in even better peanut butter being made" then yes, it would be epeening.

How? Epeeing is trying to assert my personal epeen.
Proclaiming something outside of myself is fantastic isn't epeening.

"I'm awesome because I only play PC games" could be considered epeening at a stretch, but I didn't say that.

There are better ways to feed your need for confrontation instead of creating it where it doesn't exist.

ledbelly
02-08-2011, 11:40 AM
Uncharted was bad

uncharted was an okay game. uncharted 2 was a good game.

Eriako
02-08-2011, 11:41 AM
Sounds like we just have different tastes. I like strategy games a lot, and the DS actually has a fair offering of them. Otherwise, I play a lot of RPGs, so consoles are kind to me there. I tend to like shooters better on the PC, and that seems to be Xbox territory a lot of the time so that's why I never bought one.

EDIT: I'm trying to think of games... Baten Kaitos, Xenosaga, Kingdom Hearts, some of the Final Fantasy games, Chrono Trigger, Metal Gear Solid... It's hard on the spot, I'll try and add more as I think of them.

EDIT 2: Phoenix Wright, Harvest Moon, Metroid, Zelda, Fire Emblem, Valkyrie Chronicles, Pokemon

Briticent
02-08-2011, 11:42 AM
How? Epeeing is trying to assert my personal epeen.
Proclaiming something outside of myself is fantastic isn't epeening.

"I'm awesome because I only play PC games" could be considered epeening at a stretch, but I didn't say that.

There are better ways to feed your need for confrontation instead of creating it where it doesn't exist.

Some more examples of epeening from you in this thread:

-Compare some of those to the laughable excuses they have for console exclusives?

-Generic, short, boring action games.

-For every 1 game that is exclusive to a console that I'd actually want to play there's probably 10 on PC.

-I bought a 360 to play Fable 2. Of course, it sucked really bad and I then sold my 360.

Mordwyrhta
02-08-2011, 11:42 AM
uncharted was an okay game. uncharted 2 was a good game.

I played both and neither impressed me. They were generic, nothing stood out and wowed me. They provided no reason to go out and buy a Ps3.

Mordwyrhta
02-08-2011, 11:43 AM
Some more examples of epeening from you in this thread:

-Compare some of those to the laughable excuses they have for console exclusives?

-Generic, short, boring action games.

-For every 1 game that is exclusive to a console that I'd actually want to play there's probably 10 on PC.

-I bought a 360 to play Fable 2. Of course, it sucked really bad and I then sold my 360.

You have a very warped idea of reality if you think expressing an opinion counter to your own is epeening.

*shrugs* whatever floats your boat.

velvetmeds
02-08-2011, 11:46 AM
Personally i thought the first Uncharted was better than the second... But both mediocre.

Mordwyrhta
02-08-2011, 11:47 AM
Sounds like we just have different tastes. I like strategy games a lot, and the DS actually has a fair offering of them. Otherwise, I play a lot of RPGs, so consoles are kind to me there. I tend to like shooters better on the PC, and that seems to be Xbox territory a lot of the time so that's why I never bought one.

EDIT: I'm trying to think of games... Baten Kaitos, Xenosaga, Kingdom Hearts, some of the Final Fantasy games, Chrono Trigger, Metal Gear Solid... It's hard on the spot, I'll try and add more as I think of them.

Ah, Japanese games. I'm not a fan of stories on rails masquerading as RPGs. I don't think I have a single Japanese made game on my Steam list.

RPGs are Baldur's Gate, the Elder Scrolls series, the Fallout series.

If you can't designate your class and make decisions that have a lasting, changing effect on the game world then it's not an RPG by my definition. If I'm forced into a specific role, it's not role playing.

Briticent
02-08-2011, 11:47 AM
You have a very warped idea of reality if you think expressing an opinion counter to your own is epeening.

*shrugs* whatever floats your boat.

You weren't merely expressing your opinion you were epeening. Look at the difference:

- Compare some of those to the laughable excuses they have for console exclusives

vs

- Some of the games on a console are not to my taste.

Hardee
02-08-2011, 11:48 AM
I'm not surprised. Companies are really getting hit hard by used games sales.

Finally someone who actually thinks and digests the information unlike the "too k3wl 4 sch00l crew" posting irate statements like; "ITS MY GAME YOU CORPORATE MONOPOLIST PUBLISHERS HOW DARE U!!!!111 Rage Against The Machiene and all that!!"

ledbelly
02-08-2011, 11:48 AM
Sounds like we just have different tastes. I like strategy games a lot, and the DS actually has a fair offering of them. Otherwise, I play a lot of RPGs, so consoles are kind to me there. I tend to like shooters better on the PC, and that seems to be Xbox territory a lot of the time so that's why I never bought one.

by RPGs do you mean JRPGs?

i play a lot of RPGs too. i'm actually quite disappointed to be honest with the lack of really good JRPGs this generation. there has been a couple of okay ones but nothing amazing.

speaking of console exclusives, there aren't even half as many this generation as there has been in previous generations. most games this generation go multiplatform.

if you go back to last generation though, there are loads of really good games you could choose from for the PS2 for instance.

velvetmeds
02-08-2011, 11:49 AM
Ah, Japanese games. I'm not a fan of stories on rails masquerading as RPGs. I don't think I have a single Japanese made game on my Steam list.

RPGs are Baldur's Gate, the Elder Scrolls series, the Fallout series.

If you can't designate your class and make decisions that have a lasting, changing effect on the game world then it's not an RPG by my definition. If I'm forced into a specific role, it's not role playing.

I was agreeing with most of what you said but after this it seems to me you need to open your gaming horizons.

Eriako
02-08-2011, 11:49 AM
Ah, Japanese games. I'm not a fan of stories on rails masquerading as RPGs. I don't think I have a single Japanese made game on my Steam list.

RPGs are Baldur's Gate, the Elder Scrolls series, the Fallout series.

If you can't designate your class and make decisions that have a lasting, changing effect on the game world then it's not an RPG by my definition. If I'm forced into a specific role, it's not role playing.

I really like those games too, trust me, I love them. I just also enjoy these other games. I think it's fine if you don't like all the games I do, I'm just making a point that some people find fun in them and that's what they were made to do.

I have examples like the games you mentioned, I don't know why the names are coming to me.

Mordwyrhta
02-08-2011, 11:53 AM
I was agreeing with most of what you said but after this it seems to me you need to open your gaming horizons.

It's not like I made the decision that JRPGs sucked before I played JRPGs.

I was a console gamer as a youth as I had no access to a gaming computer. I played FF 1 through to 7. I played Chrono Trigger. I thought they were fine games before I had access to stuff like Daggerfall, Fallout and Baldur's Gate.

When I first started playing Baldur's Gate I actually became almost physically mad at myself for putting as much time into JRPGs as I had.

It was like I had been happy eating dog food for my whole life then someone threw steak in front of me and suddenly I realized I had been eating dog food.

I just find almost all aspects of Japanese culture to bore me. Their art style, their story themes, their character design. I dunno, it just doesn't do anything for me. I don't hate Japanese people or anything, I just don't find their culture interesting.

The only anime stuff that ever interested me was the stuff with far more western flavour like Berserk.

ledbelly
02-08-2011, 11:57 AM
I played both and neither impressed me. They were generic, nothing stood out and wowed me. They provided no reason to go out and buy a Ps3.

but you would quite happily play through average PC games like mount & blade?

it's all opinion though, but uncharted 2 was far from generic. regardless to whether it was generic or not though, it was a fun game to play.

it does interest me on what game developers themselves like to play, especially game developers with a history with the PC.
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/10/27/game-developers-list-all-time-favorite-ps2-games/

there are a lot of great console games there. ;)

Aemony
02-08-2011, 12:01 PM
Anyone who believes the United States is out of recession has to be the most gullible SOB in the world.

Actual unemployment has climbed, less jobs are being created than are being destroyed, and underemployment (going from a high paying job to flipping burgers) is rampant.

The first thing anyone learns in a statistics class is that a statistic can say anything you want it to. Saying we're out of recession is nothing more than damage control by the bankers and elite. If we were out of recession why did we recently have Quantitative Easing 2? Do you even know what that was? I doubt it. (queue you firing up a Google tab and coming back to tell me what it is) Explain why the Canadian dollar is higher than the US now and steady there? Explain why most countries have ceased financing our debt by buying t-bills. Go ahead.

I really couldn't care less, as I'm almost 5000 miles from the US and since I don't even know what the term Quantitative Easing is in my native langauge I have to fire up a new tab simply to translate it.

I think these people who claim to be SOOOO concerned about the developers should look at the single worst thing that ever happened to developers: Publishers. Publishers 'steal' far more from developers than used games. Publishers are increasingly irrelevant in an age of digital distribution as well. Why dont you focus some of that crazed anger on publishers, thew biggest thieves of all? The publishers who push out games before they're ready, the publishers who take most of the revenue from the people that actually created the game!

I agree with you, but publishers are also amongst those whom finance the lot of the new games. Whom take cares of advertisment and actually getting the game out to the shelves. Some games wouldn't even generate the high revenues they do without the help of the publishers. I'm not arguing that what they are doing are right, but the topic of this thread is the used game market, not the fact that publishers takes the biggest piece of the cake.

Publishers are all alike, no matter the industry, they all earn a lot of money simply by helping a product get out on the market to a lot of people. That's also why I like indies of all kinds whom uses the Internet to connect to the targeted groups and push their product on their own.

And/or contribute to even MORE piracy. Make no mistake, doing away with used games on consoles will cause a MASSIVE spike in console piracy. At least then us PC gamers won't be branded with the stigma of the most pirated system.

Then so be it, since they have the same impact on developer and publishers I really couldn't care less. At least some people will fork out the extra money the new copy will cost and so give the people behind the games some more money in their pockets.

Wish people would just stop buying used stuff. Get it new or don't get it at all.

<- has never bought a used product in his life.

I am of the same.

---

Developing games costs a lot of money and if I'm not wrong only 20% of all the projects which gets the green light (so they've been worked on for a short while already at this point) is ever finished and brought to the market. Of all the games brought to the market only 20% ever realizes significant profits which in turn further stimulates the continual production and development of future games.

I like the video game industry enough to think that it's bad that the retailers seems to be going out of their way the last couple of years to promote and highlight their cheaper used copy of a game (often only $10 cheaper) so much. They actively push for people to swap in their used games for another one (i.e. 3 used games gets you a new one) so much that with the majority of games in their store being of a used nature (which is the case in my local retailer) people will of course option to buy a $10 cheaper game used than new.

Developers gets as little as it is, they don't need retailers to do everything they can to generate huge profits from the used copies of their games as well.

That's why I never sell a bought copy of a game, never buys a used copy of a game and why I also have no problem buying bought a retail copy and a digital copy of all my favorite games (heck, I'll probably end up with three copies of Dragon Age 2 as it is! :) ). If developers would have a donate button I'd be sure to show my support to them with donations instead, if my budget would survive it, but until then I'd try to support them in any way I can, even if it means arguing against retailers and console gamers 'lovely' 'no-harm-done' used market.

Hardee
02-08-2011, 12:03 PM
And the reason why people wait for a used product is because not everyone is wealthy enough to go out and buy a brand new $60 game with an additional $20-$30 in DLC content.

I'd like to buy a Rolls Royce but can't afford one. So by your logic we should just steal one because it is a "right" to get any game you want?

...Not all games are $60 forever you know.

DLC is added to counter the lost sales from used games.

Go read some more about used games. Publishers are being hit hard and this is the rebuttal. Only an idiot would argue they are not losing money on sales and retailers are gaining on their loss.

Mordwyrhta
02-08-2011, 12:05 PM
but you would quite happily play through average PC games like mount & blade?

it's all opinion though, but uncharted 2 was far from generic. regardless to whether it was generic or not though, it was a fun game to play.

it does interest me on what game developers themselves like to play, especially game developers with a history with the PC.
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/10/27/game-developers-list-all-time-favorite-ps2-games/

there are a lot of great console games there. ;)

But you see, that's the thing. Reviews don't mean anything.

Mount and Blade is loved by it's community as though it was a gift directly from the loving hands of Odin himself. It is a unique game that offers gameplay experiences that do not exist in any other game. There are no other games that are even remotely like Mount and Blade.

The graphics are poor, the sound is poor but the gameplay is amazing. That's why you'll see reviews as high as 95 for it and as low as sub-50, because you either "get" mount and blade or your don't.

And exactly how does what a game developer plays/like have an affect on what I play/like?

I am of a financially stable enough position that if I wanted to buy a console I could do so on the way home from work.

A lot of fanboys exist in an attempt to justify the purchase of their given platform because they can't just go out and buy the other one.

I could buy every console in existence on the way home from work (though I'd be hurting, I'm not rich or anything) if I so desired to play those games.

I don't. *shrugs* it's not like I'm trying to say my opinion is the right one, I'm just expressing my opinion.

Hardee
02-08-2011, 12:09 PM
Comparing used-game sales to piracy is ridiculous.

Elaborate.

The publishers don't get a penny either way. So... it's not.

Eriako
02-08-2011, 12:11 PM
Elaborate.

The publishers don't get a penny either way. So... it's not.

They might possibly have the same end, but not the same means, so that alone makes them different. I think the used game debate has enough material of its own to not need piracy brought into it.

velvetmeds
02-08-2011, 12:18 PM
Comparing is ridiculous, yes, because buying used games is worse than piracy. If you're that kind of person that can't afford a game at launch for its full price and is not able (lolwut, l2patience) to wait until the prices is lower, then please, instead of buying used, play it pirated and then buy it later. It's actually more "right" than just buying them used

please don't ban me, i don't think what i said should qualify as an infringment

Hardee
02-08-2011, 12:19 PM
They might possibly have the same end, but not the same means, so that alone makes them different. I think the used game debate has enough material of its own to not need piracy brought into it.

His argument was they are not the same thing to the publishers. They are. The used game market is harming the industry thus, no one except an idiot can complain when they implement features like activation codes.

Aemony
02-08-2011, 12:20 PM
They might possibly have the same end, but not the same means, so that alone makes them different. I think the used game debate has enough material of its own to not need piracy brought into it.

From a customer and legal perspective they are different, yes. But from a developer and publisher's perspective they are almost 100% the same (the difference being that used sales can be turned into profits with a lot of highly endorsed DLC).

Damn, ninja'd!

Mordwyrhta
02-08-2011, 12:20 PM
They're the same if you care about results.
They're different if you care about intent.

I'm a results guy, so to me used games and piracy are the same thing in the end.

I could see why you'd disagree if you're an intent kind of guy.

notavirus.exe
02-08-2011, 12:22 PM
Comparing is ridiculous, yes, because buying used games is worse than piracy. If you're that kind of person that can't afford a game at launch for its full price and is not able (lolwut, l2patience) to wait until the prices is lower, then please, instead of buying used, play it pirated and then buy it later. It's actually more "right" than just buying them used

please don't ban me, i don't think what i said should qualify as an infringment

I see where you are going with it, but I don't agree. I'll drop it thought because I don't want to push and have a regular get banned for a small harmless statement.

Hardee
02-08-2011, 12:24 PM
Can we sticky thsi thread please. A new thread about used games happens once every two days. Why not have this stickied, then we don't to have to go round and round.

ledbelly
02-08-2011, 12:25 PM
I don't. *shrugs* it's not like I'm trying to say my opinion is the right one, I'm just expressing my opinion.

yes, and i'm voicing my opinion too. what do you think i was doing? if we all just say it's just an opinion so no one ever quote me then nothing would ever get said. lol :p

i just pointed out that there has been some great console games out.

Jinoruizraged
02-08-2011, 12:30 PM
Can we sticky thsi thread please. A new thread about used games happens once every two days. Why not have this stickied, then we don't to have to go round and round.

Pointless sticky. This discussion won't matter in a few years where as most stickies are near infinitely useful.

If publishers can justify new game prices then It won't matter about used stuff anymore. Besides people will always waste money on new things. always.

Briticent
02-08-2011, 12:33 PM
They're the same if you care about results.
They're different if you care about intent.

I'm a results guy, so to me used games and piracy are the same thing in the end.

I could see why you'd disagree if you're an intent kind of guy.

You don't sound too bright to be honest. They are not the same thing in the end at all.

Eriako
02-08-2011, 12:36 PM
They're the same if you care about results.
They're different if you care about intent.

I'm a results guy, so to me used games and piracy are the same thing in the end.

I could see why you'd disagree if you're an intent kind of guy.

That's not really what I was getting at though. People will the find similarities that they want, but I meant that there's little point comparing the two in the first place.

EDIT: Aaauuhhhhjdfgs why does it matter they are two different problems entirely.

Mordwyrhta
02-08-2011, 12:42 PM
You don't sound too bright to be honest. They are not the same thing in the end at all.

Please show me how the ending result is different to the original publisher.

I'll wait.

Please do try to assert some sort of moral high ground, that should be entertaining.

Aemony
02-08-2011, 12:47 PM
Please show me how the ending result is different to the original publisher.

I'll wait.

Please do try to assert some sort of moral high ground, that should be entertaining.

the difference being that used sales can be turned into profits with a lot of highly endorsed DLC

Piracy = No additional possible profit what so ever since the copies aren't legal.
Used games = Additional profit possible since the copies are legal.

velvetmeds
02-08-2011, 12:53 PM
and buying new after the price drops = more profit than buying used despite it's potential for any (or none) profit. Plus, also the fact that people who buy used are hardly gonna spend money on DLC. Didn't they not buy new because of money in the first place? And they're gonna spend extra for some DLC that most of the time is crap they don't care about? I dont' buy it. Excuse the pun

Mordwyrhta
02-08-2011, 12:54 PM
Piracy = No additional possible profit what so ever since the copies aren't legal.
Used games = Additional profit possible since the copies are legal.

Many people use piracy to demo games and then end up buying the games in full to get access to multiplayer and DLC that is impossible/much harder to get access to while pirating.

This makes piracy pretty similar to people who buy used games since many people who buy used games won't buy the DLC just like many people who pirate won't ever buy the legal copy.

Try again.

Briticent
02-08-2011, 12:56 PM
Please show me how the ending result is different to the original publisher.

I'll wait.

Please do try to assert some sort of moral high ground, that should be entertaining.

I have already explained it several times in this thread:

These second hand games do not just appear out of nowhere. They are not conjured using unicorn farts.

Someone had to originally buy the game. They then had to sell it in order for it to go into the second hand section.

Many kids trade in their older games to finance the purchase of newer games. If you take this facility away from then it means they buy less new games as a result. Less new games means less money for the publishers and developers.

Sgt.Gotee
02-08-2011, 01:00 PM
I'm not sad that a middleman is being removed. A more direct customer/developer transaction would be nice. I don't think this is the immediate removal of a publisher, but I don't think we're far from getting there.

SiMMENS
02-08-2011, 01:06 PM
Yeah even better my roomate rented to own Madden 10 and the game shop kept the play pass until he paid it off so he could play online for months

Mordwyrhta
02-08-2011, 01:06 PM
I have already explained it several times in this thread:

These second hand games do not just appear out of nowhere. They are not conjured using unicorn farts.

Someone had to originally buy the game. They then had to sell it in order for it to go into the second hand section.

Many kids trade in their older games to finance the purchase of newer games. If you take this facility away from then it means they buy less new games as a result. Less new games means less money for the publishers and developers.

Pirated games require a first purchaser most of the time as well.
Kids no longer really drive this industry, average gaming age is very high at this point and the big money comes from people like me who are adults with a large amount of disposable income.

I mean, ♥♥♥♥, I have 225 Steam games. I alone have put more money into the industry than very large numbers of kids.

When I worked for Xbox support I worked as a global escalation agent, meaning I dealt with the real nasty cases and I had contacts with the same customers over and over. We paid nearly no attention to the complaints of children, or of parents of children, but we'd bend over backwards for the 20-somethings because those are the guys dropping THOUSANDS of dollars on games a year.

One could argue that a single purchase of a PC game leads to more pirated copies than the number of times a used copy of a game circulates but you could also factor in people lending their games to friends and so on and so forth so without concrete numbers we can't be sure which is higher.

There's also the false belief that every pirated game is a lost sale, which isn't even close to reality as if people couldn't pirate some of these games they'd just never play them.

The point is, the loss of used games would probably barely shake the console industry and would have no noticeable negative effect on the PC industry.

Briticent
02-08-2011, 01:14 PM
Pirated games require a first purchaser most of the time as well.

No, it requires someone at the developer or publisher leaking the game before it reaches the shops.

Kids no longer really drive this industry, average gaming age is very high at this point and the big money comes from people like me who are adults with a large amount of disposable income.

Define 'very high'.

I mean, ♥♥♥♥, I have 225 Steam games. I alone have put more money into the industry than very large numbers of kids.

So are you saying that the second-hand market is neglible then? What is your point here? Regardless of who buys these second-hand games someone had to sell it and that money is often used to pay for new games.

When I worked for Xbox support I worked as a global escalation agent, meaning I dealt with the real nasty cases and I had contacts with the same customers over and over. We paid nearly no attention to the complaints of children, or of parents of children, but we'd bend over backwards for the 20-somethings because those are the guys dropping THOUSANDS of dollars on games a year.

What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

One could argue that a single purchase of a PC game leads to more pirated copies than the number of times a used copy of a game circulates but you could also factor in people lending their games to friends and so on and so forth so without concrete numbers we can't be sure which is higher.

There's also the false belief that every pirated game is a lost sale, which isn't even close to reality as if people couldn't pirate some of these games they'd just never play them.

What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

The point is, the loss of used games would probably barely shake the console industry

The loss of used games would effect all the people who bought and sold them.

and would have no noticeable negative effect on the PC industry.

What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

BSPiotr
02-08-2011, 01:22 PM
Piracy = No additional possible profit what so ever since the copies aren't legal.
Used games = Additional profit possible since the copies are legal.

Holy ♥♥♥♥ DLC saving the day?! Who knew this would happen!?

Mordwyrhta
02-08-2011, 01:26 PM
No, it requires someone at the developer or publisher leaking the game before it reaches the shops.
Hence why I said "most of the time". To think that every pirated game is a publisher or developer leak is ludicrous. Those likely make up the exception, not the majority.



Define 'very high'.

Last time I saw number on it the average gaming age was pushing 30.

So are you saying that the second-hand market is neglible then? What is your point here? Regardless of who buys these second-hand games someone had to sell it and that money is often used to pay for new games.
I'm saying it's negligible to the industry of making games. What do I care if Gamestop or some poor kid suffers?



What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?
A point to show that the money put into the industry by kids using their used game money to buy a new game is negligible.


What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?
To backup my point of children being, again, of negligible importance to the gaming industry at this point. Maybe important to the Wii or Nintendo's overall market, but who cares about Nintendo?


The loss of used games would effect all the people who bought and sold them.And these people have no impact on the creation of games, meaning their existence is of no use to me and therefore their happiness or unhappiness is none of my concern. Hell, their very life is of no concern.



What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?
My argument is that the loss of used games won't affect me as a gamer, this point reaffirms that.

Once again, why must I care about people who buy and sell used games on a platform I don't use?

If anything, I could make arguments that the loss of used game sales could even benefit my platform of choice.

Loss of used games could potentially increase new game sales. This puts more money into the devs pockets, meaning possibly better production values on games. Also, it could eliminate a lot of the heavy use of "day one DLC" that has become popular as of late.

As long as my personal position gets better or stays the same, I'm happy.

Briticent
02-08-2011, 01:34 PM
As long as my personal position gets better or stays the same, I'm happy.

Life is just one big epeen trip for you isn't it?

Mordwyrhta
02-08-2011, 01:40 PM
Life is just one big epeen trip for you isn't it?

Nope, life is just good.
You see, everyone really only cares about themselves. They wouldn't care about something if it didn't, somehow, effect them. They wouldn't give to charity unless it make them feel good. They wouldn't save a life unless that life means something to them, or that they want to be the hero, or that they couldn't live with the shame/feeling of watching another die.

All human action is fueled by selfish desire with varying levels of "fluff" to make it seem less selfish. Some people don't even know their decisions are selfish, they honestly think they're selfless people, they're just wrong.

I just live without most of the fluff.

If you want to call accepting reality an "epeen trip" then sure, I've been riding a pretty nice epeen trip for the last 28 years. The biggest epeen trip. A giant phallic ship that I zoom around the universe in.

No go back to thinking you're better than I am because you still believe in the fluff. Some people find life easier with the fluff.

And I find it infinitely entertaining that you don't even know the proper use of the word epeen.

notavirus.exe
02-08-2011, 01:48 PM
Nope, life is just good.
You see, everyone really only cares about themselves. They wouldn't care about something if it didn't, somehow, effect them. They wouldn't give to charity unless it make them feel good. They wouldn't save a life unless that life means something to them, or that they want to be the hero, or that they couldn't live with the shame/feeling of watching another die.

All human action is fueled by selfish desire with varying levels of "fluff" to make it seem less selfish. Some people don't even know their decisions are selfish, they honestly think they're selfless people, they're just wrong.

I just live without most of the fluff.

If you want to call accepting reality an "epeen trip" then sure, I've been riding a pretty nice epeen trip for the last 28 years. The biggest epeen trip. A giant phallic ship that I zoom around the universe in.

No go back to thinking you're better than I am because you still believe in the fluff. Some people find life easier with the fluff.

And I find it infinitely entertaining that you don't even know the proper use of the word epeen.

I care about my family more than myself. You shouldn't project your idea on life to everyone else. People are motivated by many different things and if you put your generalizations aside you will see that some motives become very complex just by asking a few questions.

Back on topic. I highly doubt any thing will happen. Gamestop and the used game industry will remain the same. Gamestop was founded in 1984, so why wait 25+ years to raise an issue...money is the only answer.

Companies have survived this long without the money, they will be ok for the remainder of their time on earth. How about the build better games with real support, spend less on marketing and let the consumer base's word of mouth be the real marketing platform.

-Not to mention the 50,000 employees that would potentially lose their job by this move, and during a recession and time period where unemployment is sky rocketing, it wouldn't exactly look good for the country (so I doubt the bill/law/ruling would pass).

Briticent
02-08-2011, 01:57 PM
All human action is fueled by selfish desire with varying levels of "fluff" to make it seem less selfish. Some people don't even know their decisions are selfish, they honestly think they're selfless people, they're just wrong.

This is a justification that bitter and insecure people use to make themselves feel better. They have no idea why they feel bitter but they have to hold onto this particular delusion in order to make themselves feel better.

And I find it infinitely entertaining that you don't even know the proper use of the word epeen.

Epeening can actually take a few forms but it is generally about making yourself look better than you really are.

Take this thread for example. It is about the second-hand games market for consoles yet you plonked your post in about how you don't care about consoles and that you only play PC games. There was a smattering of posts saying that consoles are crap, another couple of posts boasting about the exact number of Steam games you have and several other utterly irrelevant facts about yourself.

From the moment you came in you were trying to form a hierarchy with you perched somewhere near the top and everyone else underneath you. It explains your constant attempts to 'big up' your games and tastes and put down everyone else's.

So yeah. You are epeening. On the Internet. About computer games.

Well done.

Mordwyrhta
02-08-2011, 02:00 PM
I care about my family more than myself. You shouldn't project your idea on life to everyone else. People are motivated by many different things and if you put your generalizations aside you will see that some motives become very complex just by asking a few questions.

Back on topic. I highly doubt any thing will happen. Gamestop and the used game industry will remain the same. Gamestop was founded in 1984, so why wait 25+ years to raise an issue...money is the only answer.

Companies have survived this long without the money, they will be ok for the remainder of their time on earth. How about the build better games with real support, spend less on marketing and let the consumer base's word of mouth be the real marketing platform.

-Not to mention the 50,000 employees that would potentially lose their job by this move, and during a recession and time period where unemployment is sky rocketing, it wouldn't exactly look good for the country (so I doubt the bill/law/ruling would pass).

You care about your family more than yourself because you've made the decision that you'd rather not live than live in a world without them.

As I said, most people don't even realize their decisions are selfish. Society in general would break down if more people peeled back the fluff. I know you are completely sure that you make selfless decisions, it's just that I can easily backtrack any decision you make to an inherently selfish reason because that's just how we are wired. You only care about that which has some sort of effect on you, even if it's just an emotional one. I am not saying your are consciously selfish, you're wired that way. Your genes want to pass on, even if it's through a family member, hence how altruism began to form in the animal kingdom.

And yes, back to the point at hand. You see, my only concern is good games. People losing their jobs and such have no bearing on my decisions or opinions on this matter because I just want really good games. Any decision that would lead to games getting better, I am on board.

When it comes to this whole used thing I am effectively indifferent to the actual outcome, as I have no idea if it would make games better or worse and as I don't buy/sell used games, it has no effect on me.

On a slightly self-serving note, I would find the collapse of the console industry sort of humorous so basically as long as the PC gaming industry remains mostly unchanged or gets better, the fate of the console gaming industry is more a matter of curiosity than anything.

notavirus.exe
02-08-2011, 02:33 PM
You care about your family more than yourself because you've made the decision that you'd rather not live than live in a world without them.


Sure Dr. Phil.

I said nothing of death. If it came down to me profiting or someone else in my family, I would choose them. Not because I am selfish, but because I like to help out family.

Psychological Egoism is a terrible cynical thing, you should not use it so much.

Mordwyrhta
02-08-2011, 02:44 PM
Sure Dr. Phil.

I said nothing of death. If it came down to me profiting or someone else in my family, I would choose them. Not because I am selfish, but because I like to help out family.

Psychological Egoism is a terrible cynical thing, you should not use it so much.

"Because I like to help out family."
You like to because it makes you feel good.
You receive a positive emotional experience.
If you did not, you wouldn't do it.

It's not psychological egoism, it's simple biology. Even people who do things incredible painful to themselves for the benefit of others do so because the emotional experience they receive from helping people outweighs the pain, or the negative emotional experience they'd feel for not helping is worse than the pain.

Just like everyone has a price that would make them go against some of their most ingrained moral principals.

You'd probably say that you'd never harm anyone in your family, but what if you had only one choice: harm a member of your family or your entire family dies. You have no other option but those two, then you, I assume, would likely harm that family member. Everyone has a price, it's just not necessarily money/goods/power.

The human psyche isn't nearly as complex as people make it out to be, in the end it's still the brain of an animal that can be manipulated like that of an animal, it just has more complex risk and reward calculating abilities.

Meallme0
02-08-2011, 02:49 PM
Honestly, can someone explain to me why the video game industry is the only industry making a huge deal out of selling used games? Every other industry seems to be doing just fine even though their products get sold used.

EDIT: I like this Mord fellow. He and I seem to share opinions on the human psyche. Or philosophy, I suppose, is more accurate.

docwavy
02-08-2011, 02:54 PM
When I worked for Xbox support I worked as a global escalation agent, meaning I dealt with the real nasty cases and I had contacts with the same customers over and over. We paid nearly no attention to the complaints of children, or of parents of children, but we'd bend over backwards for the 20-somethings because those are the guys dropping THOUSANDS of dollars on games a year.

The point is, the loss of used games would probably barely shake the console industry and would have no noticeable negative effect on the PC industry.

Your 200+ games on steam and these individuals who are spending thousands a year (~3 $60 games a month) on games are outliers. Unless someone is unemployed, retired, or a complete social outcast, there are hardly enough hours in the day for 33 games a year. If microsoft and sony were making so much bank on these 20-30 somethings with vast disposable income and a gaming addiction, they wouldn't be copying the wii.

$60 is too much for the majority of people to keep buying multiple titles, and if the price doesn't drop to $30 they buy used or pirate. DRM killed the used market for pc games and frankly it took steam's low prices to save it from piracy. They don't even bother making a pc version for a lot of games these days.

The quality titles you want cost $20M+ to make. The money is where the largest number of open wallets are. So PC < Console << Casual (wii/iphone/facebook) gamers. Collapse of consoles means the games we get are either indie, independent(Valve), or even more casual. I hope you're looking forward to that motion control port of wii farmville.

notavirus.exe
02-08-2011, 02:55 PM
"Because I like to help out family."
You like to because it makes you feel good.
You receive a positive emotional experience.
If you did not, you wouldn't do it.

It's not psychological egoism, it's simple biology. Even people who do things incredible painful to themselves for the benefit of others do so because the emotional experience they receive from helping people outweighs the pain, or the negative emotional experience they'd feel for not helping is worse than the pain.

Just like everyone has a price that would make them go against some of their most ingrained moral principals.

You'd probably say that you'd never harm anyone in your family, but what if you had only one choice: harm a member of your family or your entire family dies. You have no other option but those two, then you, I assume, would likely harm that family member. Everyone has a price, it's just not necessarily money/goods/power.

The human psyche isn't nearly as complex as people make it out to be, in the end it's still the brain of an animal that can be manipulated like that of an animal, it just has more complex risk and reward calculating abilities.

No, its Psychological Egoism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_egoism) by definition. And it usually works great for cynics. It's been ripped apart by philosophers and psychologist since the 60's. I won't go into it though, because I'd just be proving you wrong for my own selfish gain. ;)

Selfishly I'll move onto a less selfish subject, like how I don't want gamestop to close because selfishly I shop there on a low income. It literally has nothing to do with me having friends employed at one, or the possible 50k+ people who would lose their jobs, or the loss in competition for retailers, or the convenience of how well spread out they are, or any other business strategy that benefits from the existence of a professional second hand retailer of games.

And sorry to say, but selfishly I have to leave work at 5pm because my employer selfishly won't pay me overtime to sit on SUF and argue a circular argument with someone who won't admit their argument is psychological egoism at the core of its very definition.

Have a good ;)

BSPiotr
02-08-2011, 02:56 PM
[...]
It's not psychological egoism, it's simple biology.[...]

No, it's philosophy, and there's as many flavors of that as there are used games in Gamestop stores.

EDIT: Ninja'd by someone who knows more than I do :D

Briticent
02-08-2011, 02:58 PM
Honestly, can someone explain to me why the video game industry is the only industry making a huge deal out of selling used games? Every other industry seems to be doing just fine even though their products get sold used.

I would hazard a guess that it is because they are in a position to actually do something about it whilst not actually having it made illegal.

EDIT: I like this Mord fellow. He and I seem to share opinions on the human psyche.

He isn't saying anything new or particulary interesting. It's as if in the last week he read The Selfish Gene, watched an episode of House and then looked up the word 'sociopath' in the dictionary.

Mordwyrhta
02-08-2011, 03:01 PM
Your 200+ games on steam and these individuals who are spending thousands a year (~3 $60 games a month) on games are outliers. Unless someone is unemployed, retired, or a complete social outcast, there are hardly enough hours in the day for 33 games a year. If microsoft and sony were making so much bank on these 20-30 somethings with vast disposable income and a gaming addiction, they wouldn't be copying the wii.

$60 is too much for the majority of people to keep buying multiple titles, and if the price doesn't drop to $30 they buy used or pirate. DRM killed the used market for pc games and frankly it took steam's low prices to save it from piracy. They don't even bother making a pc version for a lot of games these days.

The quality titles you want cost $20M+ to make. The money is where the largest number of open wallets are. So PC < Console << Casual (wii/iphone/facebook) gamers. I hope you're looking forward to that motion control port of wii farmville.

Microsoft and Sony fell behind the Wii in hardware but crush it in software. They 'copied' the Wii to basically crush Nintento (because let's be real, both the Move and Kinect are miles ahead of the Wii). Nintendo's money is in the handheld market and that's likely the corner they're going to get permanently pushed into due to very low software sales. The Wii showed there was an untapped market, even if that market is technically smaller, it's still business sense to tap it for Sony and MS.

You also act like I play all 225 games on my Steam account at the same time. Some games become obsolete so I stop playing them, they're still on my account in case I ever feel the desire to play them again. I'm sure if a lot of people tallied all the games they've owned for the last 4 or 5 years it would be a large number.

And I don't have a gaming addiction, I just don't partake in many other forms of entertainment. I don't have a TV, I'm not much of a bar person, I don't buy music, I don't have a phone other than my cell.

I live very spartanly so I have a lot of extra money for my favourite hobby.

Mordwyrhta
02-08-2011, 03:03 PM
No, its Psychological Egoism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_egoism) by definition. And it usually works great for cynics. It's been ripped apart by philosophers and psychologist since the 60's. I won't go into it though, because I'd just be proving you wrong for my own selfish gain. ;)

Selfishly I'll move onto a less selfish subject, like how I don't want gamestop to close because selfishly I shop there on a low income. It literally has nothing to do with me having friends employed at one, or the possible 50k+ people who would lose their jobs, or the loss in competition for retailers, or the convenience of how well spread out they are, or any other business strategy that benefits from the existence of a professional second hand retailer of games.

And sorry to say, but selfishly I have to leave work at 5pm because my employer selfishly won't pay me overtime to sit on SUF and argue a circular argument with someone who won't admit their argument is psychological egoism at the core of its very definition.

Have a good ;)

Philosophy can't really tear science apart, nor can psychology. A first year course in evolutionary biology can tear both philosophy and psychology in half. Hard sciences always trump soft sciences.

Philosophy has to be the most worthless subject in modern times, it is so laughably obsolete.

docwavy
02-08-2011, 03:08 PM
1) Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft make their money pushing hardware. Nintendo won. They make a bit for the console game fee but it doesnt compare to the profit margin on the console itself, extra controllers, kinect/move/nintendo plus attachment etc.

2) Wasn't talking about you. I was referring to the xbox owners spending "thousands" a year on games. Sorry if that was unclear.:(

Briticent
02-08-2011, 03:11 PM
Philosophy can't really tear science apart, nor can psychology. A first year course in evolutionary biology can tear both philosophy and psychology in half. Hard sciences always trump soft sciences.

Oh dear. What is the name of this hard science that explains human behaviour?

Hint: There 'aint one.

Meallme0
02-08-2011, 03:12 PM
He isn't saying anything new or particulary interesting. It's as if in the last week he read The Selfish Gene, watched an episode of House and then looked up the word 'sociopath' in the dictionary.

I wouldn't know, really. He just seems to be generally echoing some things I've been contemplating about motivation recently. If it's a tired concept that's been disproven over and over, then I'm amazed I hadn't heard of it until recently.

Briticent
02-08-2011, 03:20 PM
I wouldn't know, really. He just seems to be generally echoing some things I've been contemplating about motivation recently. If it's a tired concept that's been disproven over and over, then I'm amazed I hadn't heard of it until recently.

It's nowhere near as simple as that to be honest - it hasn't been disproven because it hasn't been proven in the first place!

Evoloutionary biology is a fascinating subject though. If you are interested in it you can give two Richard Dawkins books a go - The Selfish Gene and it's follow up The Blind Watchmaker.

You could also read the link that notavirus.exe provided to Wikipedia. It outlines what Mord is saying and then provides the counter-arguments against it. There are plenty of interesting and easy to read links that span off from that article as well.

Jinoruizraged
02-08-2011, 03:25 PM
wait a minute....PC games don't resell...Consoles are turning into PCs.....Console games turn into PC games...No more reselling games period.

Fun times.

cwbys21
02-08-2011, 03:56 PM
On a slightly self-serving note, I would find the collapse of the console industry sort of humorous so basically as long as the PC gaming industry remains mostly unchanged or gets better, the fate of the console gaming industry is more a matter of curiosity than anything.
the "collapse" of the console industry would collapse the pc industry as well. no, if consoles magically disappeared, most people wouldn't turn to pc gaming. most people don't like having to deal with hardware and having a different log in to get online on every single game.Honestly, can someone explain to me why the video game industry is the only industry making a huge deal out of selling used games? Every other industry seems to be doing just fine even though their products get sold used.
because other things show their wear when games don't. a used car can have 100,000 miles on it and been in three crashes. another car of the same year and model can have 50,000 miles and been in no crashes, that determines their value. meanwhile, Halo 3, unless it is terribly scratched in which case GameStop won't take it in the first place, will be the same game whether you buy it new or used, on release day or today.

Newlemming
02-08-2011, 04:07 PM
Figures. Everyone's so against used games, they'd do anything to make it that much harder to get used stuff.

Aemony
02-08-2011, 04:31 PM
Many people use piracy to demo games and then end up buying the games in full to get access to multiplayer and DLC that is impossible/much harder to get access to while pirating.

This makes piracy pretty similar to people who buy used games since many people who buy used games won't buy the DLC just like many people who pirate won't ever buy the legal copy.

Logical reasoning would suggest that a person is much more likely to fork over $10 for a DLC he is interesting in than $40 for a legal copy of a game he has already completed. He'd have a higher probability of just pirating the DLC he want as well, instead of paying $40 for a legitimate copy and extra $10 for the DLC, simply to gain 'full access' to everything the game has to offer.

And the people whom pirate games to demo them and actually thinks about buying a legitimate copy is probably only a very, very small minority.

Piracy and used games both have a possibility of brining in some more income to the publishers and developers, yes, but the possibility of this happening is wastly different between the two. However the difference remains that publishers and developers can earn more profit directly from a used game easily, which they can't from a pirated one.

Meallme0
02-08-2011, 04:31 PM
because other things show their wear when games don't. a used car can have 100,000 miles on it and been in three crashes. another car of the same year and model can have 50,000 miles and been in no crashes, that determines their value. meanwhile, Halo 3, unless it is terribly scratched in which case GameStop won't take it in the first place, will be the same game whether you buy it new or used, on release day or today.

That doesn't make much sense if you think about it, though. People can buy a car that is one year old used, like they can buy a game that is one year old used. Much like games, a dealer will not buy an old car that is beyond the point of repair. Exact same situation there.

But by the point that the "games don't age," argument comes into effect, retailers won't be selling new copies of that game anymore. It'll all be used. Exact same deal with cars. No profit was even going to be made, because they're not selling that item anymore. I just don't think that's a valid excuse.

PowerfulGiraffe
02-08-2011, 04:34 PM
First off, if any kind of DRM is added to PS3 it isn't going to be something that makes users without internet in their homes unable to play. They won't require anyone to activate a game online. I don't think that CD Keys are too far-fetched of an idea, but they wouldn't change the fact that you can sell your PS3 game used, it is totally OUT OF THE QUESTION to add such a thing in the middle of a consoles life, it would need to be implemented from the very start of the console as it would cause confusion, lawsuits, loss of consumers, and purists would probably boycott. Not to mention even developers buy and sell games, they would hate it just as much as the next person, not to mention Sony and them are all have connections to GameStop,

That idea wouldn't really fly over well with anybody,

SaDiZTiKStyLeZ™
02-08-2011, 05:16 PM
I've been hearing about this for a while.
They already bind you fools in with the XBL & PSN account bound games. (And Steam has the PC market in a headlock.)
Game companies feel salty they are making no money from the used game market.
Honestly though, when a game has only 10 hours of game play, with zero re-playability after that. I want to be able to pass it off on someone else who will have the enjoyment of those 10 hours as well, before passing it off to another. (Yes Steam, I'd like to gift off games in my library that I will never-ever play again.)
Developers should be glad someone is appreciating the (art) work they put into the game. (Those unknown, forgotten developers from games on NES & beyond!)
So instead of it going from gameplay 10hr x yyy persons enjoyments, it will be 2hr gameplay time x yyy profit!
Screw gamers, you unappreciative people, you.

Spycake
02-08-2011, 05:48 PM
I'd almost be fine with this were new games anywhere near fairly priced.
Protip: 60+ Dollars for a game with ~8 hours of gameplay isn't fair.

Dirtman73
02-08-2011, 10:00 PM
Oh dear. What is the name of this hard science that explains human behaviour?

Hint: There 'aint one.

Uhhh, it's called psychology. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology.

Unless you're a Scientologist or a Catholic priest, psychology is considered a hard science. And yes, I do realize that you meant to state "attempts to explain" where you accidentally typed "explains".

Briticent
02-09-2011, 01:15 AM
Uhhh, it's called psychology. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology.

Unless you're a Scientologist or a Catholic priest, psychology is considered a hard science. And yes, I do realize that you meant to state "attempts to explain" where you accidentally typed "explains".

It isn't universally considered a hard science at all, certainly not in the same way that biology is. You can't reproduce results like you can in biology and chemistry.

Anyway if you look at Mord's post that I was replying to you will see that it is he who is trumping biology over everything else.

i9urd
02-09-2011, 01:18 AM
http://www.cad-comic.com/cad/20110209

To be honest that comic really deserves its own thread but oh well. Sony is overreacting to its impregnabelolol console being hacked. It was inevitable.

CTRL ALT DEL !
02-09-2011, 01:23 AM
http://www.cad-comic.com/cad/20110209

To be honest that comic really deserves its own thread but oh well. Sony is overreacting to its impregnabelolol console being hacked. It was inevitable. CTRL+ALT+DEL lololol

Aedn
02-09-2011, 05:56 AM
From what i understand, and this is just as poorly informed consumer, if you have an actual hard copy of something, that you bought, you have the right to resale of said item, provided you do not defraud anyone. IE selling used items as new.

I do not see how a consumer can be bound from a legal standpoint, from selling such things as console games, which are bound to an actual physical item, and have copy protection requirements built in, in terms of having to have an actual working system to use it. Its not like digital media, or media that can be easily copied and moved, such as music or e-books.

As far as piracy vs selling used games, its a joke to attempt to say they are anything close to the same thing.

GirlPower23
02-09-2011, 08:17 AM
I do not see how a consumer can be bound from a legal standpoint, from selling such things as console games, which are bound to an actual physical item, and have copy protection requirements built in, in terms of having to have an actual working system to use it. Its not like digital media, or media that can be easily copied and moved, such as music or e-books.


I don't know a whole lot about console games and if they are protected, however, with PC Software you aren't buying the physical media but a license to the media on the disc. Nothing more or less, meaning you aren't selling your property, but somebody else's. However, PC Games are hard to resale anyway, couple that with if you could manage to resale them most companies aren't going to nail you. However, if it's an expensive piece of software I'd expect a company to come hammer you. But I don't believe Consoles have such things, however that doesn't mean they can't add a license that you merely purchase just like PC Games. Thus putting an end to the second hand market. Music and E-Book could probably do the same, however there is really no second hand market for either of them is there, or at least one that matters.

Dirtman73
02-09-2011, 08:23 AM
It isn't universally considered a hard science at all, certainly not in the same way that biology is. You can't reproduce results like you can in biology and chemistry.

No offense, but your knowledge of psychology as a scientific theory seems to be limited. "You can't reproduce results like you can in biology and chemistry"? Seriously? 120+ years of documented experiments and case studies will prove you wrong. I should also mention that the study of human biology and the study of human psychology go hand in hand.

I understand the point you're trying to make to Mord though. I just get a little peevish when someone attempts to bring up the "psychology isn't a real science" fallacy.

Anyway, I digress. Sorry to throw the original topic off.

Aedn
02-09-2011, 08:36 AM
I don't know a whole lot about console games and if they are protected, however, with PC Software you aren't buying the physical media but a license to the media on the disc. Nothing more or less, meaning you aren't selling your property, but somebody else's. However, PC Games are hard to resale anyway, couple that with if you could manage to resale them most companies aren't going to nail you. However, if it's an expensive piece of software I'd expect a company to come hammer you. But I don't believe Consoles have such things, however that doesn't mean they can't add a license that you merely purchase just like PC Games. Thus putting an end to the second hand market. Music and E-Book could probably do the same, however there is really no second hand market for either of them is there, or at least one that matters.

Issue, is that you need 2 specific items to operate a console game, while a PC game can be done anywhere, and is a uniform platform. Also its not like a console game can be played on 4-10 machines at one time. I cant for instance install red dead redemption on my xbox360, then pull the disk, and go sell it, if i plan to play the game at all. nor can i preform multiple installs because i still need the disk to operation the game, and xbox is pretty well excempt from things like No CD cracks.

I think it comes down to the level of protection that most consoles have , vs the level of protection for things that are far more easily transferable. From a legal standpoint, i just dont see the console makers/developers getting away with things that would intentionally limit or remove consumer rights in terms of selling products they legally purchased.

I understand why they wish to do so, however i think it would have a negative effect in the long term. All you really have to do is look at the record industry for things not to do. Consumers will put up with hassle to an extent, but once you pass it, they will just not spend money.

BSPiotr
02-09-2011, 08:58 AM
Seems like the entire "Software is a license thing" is bouncing back and forth still in the courts. Its hard to tell where it'll go, but it seems to be veering towards "its a license" =(

SmudgePot
02-09-2011, 09:04 AM
The reason for the push to end used games sales is corporate greed and some enron type accounting. Company A thinks that since the used game market is a worth 650 million that they can garner that money buy forcing people who buy 6 used games for $60 to buy 1 new game for $60. Unfortunately they dont understand the economics. People who buy used games, usually buy 1 or 2 at a time and without the option to gain entertainment in the form of a used console game for $10-20 bux they wont save that money towards a new game but spend it on half a sack with their other friends who cant spend their limited disposable cash on a used console game either. So greedy company A has reduced competition and gained no net sales.

Well lets said that they dont care about this since they werent getting a piece of this pie to begin with and if they cant have a piece they want no one to have a piece, they still have all their new games sales, or do they?

How many new games are bought with the thought of subsidizing and justifying the purchase by knowing they can redeem the game when they are done with it for part of the purchase price? Without the used gaming market offering purchase redemption, new game sales will lose some of their impulse buys and face greater scrutiny for actual sales.

But what do I care, Im shorting all the idiot companies who are focusing all forthcoming IPs on consoles exclusively anyway. You can garner alot of sales with hype and a billion dollar block buster, and everyone will think that that is the model for future success but the smart money is not betting on companies who are reducing their own products value and focusing all their futures and roadmaps on tech that is at its end of life cycle.

Summary: Used games resale value drives/subsidizes new sales and has persisted consoles platforms value beyond their normal end of life. If consolers were force to buy games with the same finality as PC gamers(All sales final/No resale) then they would scrutinize their purchases as much as PC gamers do now and the console market would have to struggle to maintain the sales per installed platform that PCs give developers even today.

SmudgePot
02-09-2011, 09:08 AM
I'm not surprised. Companies are really getting hit hard by used games sales.

This is as ridiculous as saying used car sales are really hurting new car sales. Spend less time in front of your console and more time in Economics.

GirlPower23
02-09-2011, 09:22 AM
This is as ridiculous as saying used car sales are really hurting new car sales. Spend less time in front of your console and more time in Economics.

I get tired of this analogy. Anyway, it does hurt the industry. Prove me wrong Economics genius.

Briticent
02-09-2011, 09:25 AM
I get tired of this analogy. Anyway, it does hurt the industry. Prove me wrong Economics genius.

You have to prove it does hurt the industry first since you are the one making the claim in the first place.

GirlPower23
02-09-2011, 09:29 AM
You have to prove it does hurt the industry first since you are the one making the claim in the first place.

There are plenty of articles posted by me, posted by others that show evidence they are harming the industry. However, you guys have yet to show one piece of evidence or cite a source it doesn't hurt the industry.


@People who use the car analogy. Lets just think this through:
Generally Speaking a car is far more valuable than a piece of software, so in turn used cars aren't going to harm it so much. Couple that with the fact cars are necessity in todays life. Lets not forget, a good percent of used car dealerships are owned and operated by the very same people who create these vehicles. Which means far more profit is still coming into the manufacturers. When EA Games opens it's own "Second Hand" store feel free to start using this analogy. Until then.. stop using it.. they are polar opposites.

SmudgePot
02-09-2011, 09:41 AM
I get tired of this analogy. Anyway, it does hurt the industry. Prove me wrong Economics genius.

Ill assume you can crawl and proceed to teach you to walk. Start your education here: Consumerism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumerism)

Once you are fully understanding of consumerism then you can proceed to trying to understand the fallacy in saying there is no degradation in digital media. Even if the digital copy doesnt deteriorate at a level that pleases most misinformed arguments it still looses value incrementally. There is a reason that no one is trying to sale an original 2 year old game at its original offer price, the technology has a built in shelf-life. Even the billion dollar console game has had its marketing reined in, in response to reduced value/profit margin for additional sales/adoption.

People who buy fresh bread and those that buy day old bread are 2 different types of consumers and you cannot make more of 1 by limiting supply of the other. Prohibition of any type just fuels alternate markets, it does nothing to restrict, curtail or change market demands.

Rechar
02-09-2011, 09:56 AM
For a start, the second-hand market doesn't damage first sales, the only reason it exists is due to the fact items are sold initially. Unless you are willing to totally re-write the laws of ownership and sale worldwide its something the industry has to live with.

That being said, they could reduce the cost to them by simply making games more valuable. All too often now we see games with $60 price tags that hold the average gamers attention for a few days, maybe a week. Thats a hefty sum and a person is likely to try and recoup that loss through resale. If games developers produced quality games with longevity you'd see more first sales and -less- second-hand sales (people only have a finite patience, if nobody is reselling a game they bought due to its longevity, they will buy their own copy). And if a game is good enough to replay, customers will keep it rather than selling it on.

Much like piracy they also need to look at the positive aspects of resale, namely that you are expanding your marketbase leading to a higher probability of future sales as a result. The indie market is a prime example of how a lower price (in this situation as a result of resale) exposes customers to a new developer, who then gain increased sales of future games (at full price).

Having the corporations slowly erode consumer rights in an attempt to swell their profit margins...doesn't seem at all ethical, or logical (as it will invariably give them a bad reputation).

crunchyfrog555
02-09-2011, 10:26 AM
I believe this is yet another "testing of the water" by Sony.

It's no secret that at various stages through video games' history, certain Japanese developers have tried to get it put through Japanese law to ban second-hand game sales. Invariably, they keep trying again, or at least making little public statements like this to judge public reaction.

However, regardless of the Japanese situation, there are certain territories they would find this either very hard to stick or even illegal.

I've said on here many times that I have never sold a game (in 34 years collecting), although I almost never buy a game on release. I often buy second-hand because due to being disabled, and on benefits for the rest of my life, I can't afford to be frivolous with what I spend on games.

I know from my experience in video games journalism that if Sony adopted such a thing through our UK market, they would lose a shed of money.

Before anyone says "well, they don't get any of the income from second-hand sales", that is true. But, everything has a knock-on effect.

For example, GAME is the largest group of game stores here, and on average their games are resold around 6 times each. Having that availability of second-hand games keeps (or at least drops) the prices of new games.

I believe it we did see such a system employed by Sony, it would kiss goodbye to an awful lot of sales for their system. A system, which they've gambled a lot on by making it a console with a long proposed "shelf life" (due to it being technologically quite adept on release, rather than behind the curve as was traditional).

I just can't see it happening. They're merely testing the water is all.

EDIT: As for those comments about second-hand game sale hurting the industry? Have you considered the one most important point that gets overlooked? That of, how long have second-hand game sales been available? Why, just as long as new game sales of course.

If there was any validity in this statement at all, it would have to mean the second-hand market would have to have appeared some time AFTER new games came to be. Secondarily, if it were so, how come the video game market is still breaking records at least 34 years since I first bought second-hand games?

Jinoruizraged
02-09-2011, 10:30 AM
The gaming industry isn't being harmed. Its called growing pains.

SmudgePot
02-09-2011, 10:32 AM
People who buy fresh bread and those that buy day old bread are 2 different types of consumers and you cannot make more of 1 by limiting supply of the other. Prohibition of any type just fuels alternate markets, it does nothing to restrict, curtail or change market demands.

queue the Bundys singing Day Old Bread. :D

crunchyfrog555
02-09-2011, 10:32 AM
The gaming industry isn't being harmed. Its called growing pains.

Growing pains? That's some monster that still has growing pains after more than 30 years...