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Voyager II
02-10-2011, 06:11 PM
Just gonna list the main issues with CI, as I feel they behave far, FAR too randomly to be any sort of fun to fight against.

*Problematic since l4d1
*Problematic added with l4d2




- *Unshoveable during specific animations

(ducking, landing, climbing, clipping inside objects)

- *Inconsistency in attack animations

(sometimes they 2shot you in half a second, sometimes they dance for a minute before doing damage)

- *Absolutely terrible pathing

(will run in circles for no reason, will miss doorways, will take ages to find their way to a pipebomb, climbs over objects repeatedly)

- **Messed up targeting system

(if a common infected passes by a open door or any breakable object, it will often trigger their attack prematurely and immediately hit a nearby player without being in shove range)

- *Slides past player colisions and targets

(oh, a zombie in my face! Wait, now it's behind me?)

- *Gore system show-off making CI annoyingly resistant

(because it's totally important for a common infected to survive half a shotgun blast ((something that wasn't possible in l4d1)) simply because the player needs to stare at its gut for a second)







I'd probably point out more of these, but the first one alone is game breaking enough.

These problems also affects witches, ironically the best evidence (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9vnOev4T6Q&feature=player_embedded#!) was chosen as a "winner" in a earlier contest.

(the only reason they couldn't catch up is because they zigzag like idiots and collide with eachother)

Sure, it's not really a problem in versus, since 1 damage isn't a big deal. But the slowdown does matter, and ♥♥♥♥s you over in expert.

thread repost because godamnit

Jayjones
02-10-2011, 07:10 PM
the common and their "ninja" L337 skils without them even showing a hit animation is what makes me yell at my pillow for hours

No_wander_off
02-10-2011, 07:14 PM
The terrible pathing is set with a Cvar or 2, i've tried it and tested it (but even when it's disabled, they still do a wierd dance to reach you)

Jayjones
02-10-2011, 07:31 PM
The terrible pathing is set with a Cvar or 2, i've tried it and tested it (but even when it's disabled, they still do a wierd dance to reach you)

So no way to make the Ninja's not-so-much ninja? :(

Voyager II
02-10-2011, 07:42 PM
The terrible pathing is set with a Cvar or 2, i've tried it and tested it (but even when it's disabled, they still do a wierd dance to reach you)

so you can set it back to l4d1 standards?

No_wander_off
02-10-2011, 08:04 PM
so you can set it back to l4d1 standards?

yeah, pretty much. but like i said, they don't act exactly as the L4D1 commons.

nb_direct_chase_nav_check

081XxhephexX180
02-10-2011, 08:33 PM
I think the last one is just a problem with you, I see no problem with commons being more resistant to damage, it adds to the difficulty. (L4d1 is freaking easy even on Expert, L4d2, not so much)

xxxVJ300xxx
02-10-2011, 08:53 PM
Theirs one related to doors in both games, sometimes when a single common infected runs past an open door it'll break when they run by it. This doesnt always happen, but when it does the door pieces go flying.

As for the shotgun part relating to them, its bad enough SMG's got more reserve ammo, and shotguns got so much less they run out like 30% faster then SMG's. I'd like the reserve ammo bumped up to at least 65 for T1 shotguns. Confogl does it right by making them have 90 instead of 56.

Stagger Lee
02-10-2011, 08:57 PM
I found zombies in L4D too easy to kill because they were so predictable in their pathing. Horde coming at you? No problem. Just take them all out with one M16 clip by shooting in a straight horizontal line at head height.

If you watch any zombie movie ever made, many zombies make odd pathing choices too. They aren't shrewd predators. They are mindless. Keep in mind also that these aren't true zombies but infected so their minds are possibly even worse.

The only point I agree with here are the infected who suddenly appear behind you even when they weren't there a instant ago.

Voyager II
02-10-2011, 09:08 PM
You can't "disagree" with bugs.

Stagger Lee
02-10-2011, 09:14 PM
You can't "disagree" with bugs.

They aren't bugs. Even the one I don't care for (lone zombie appearing behind you) doesn't appear to be a bug. It seems to be something Valve did on purpose however aggravating it can be just to amp up the difficulty.

If everything you posted there were "fixed" we'd have boring hordes like we had in L4D again. If you liked them in L4D more, that's your business. But they were extremely easy to kill hence why Valve had many do odd and eratic movements to make them more difficult to kill.

pappaskurtz
02-10-2011, 09:16 PM
You can't "disagree" with bugs.

Yes you can--you can dispute them. I would agree with you in the instance where a zombie starts to climb over a light post instead of running around it, but the "horrible pathing" you mention seems like an intentional design decision because, as Stagger said, the L4D1 zombies were too easy to shoot.

Voyager II
02-11-2011, 05:26 PM
Any feedback from people who actually play and understand the game?

ckspike
02-11-2011, 05:49 PM
it's not really a big deal til you hit expert or realism... Then the fact that you melee them and they get stuck and instantly swipe back can really get annoying. The running slap that completely STOPS your forward progress is also of concern. It doesn't make the game 'harder' it just makes it more of a slog.

pappaskurtz
02-11-2011, 05:52 PM
Any feedback from people who actually play and understand the game?

So, when we disagree with you, and offer reasons to support our view, you insult us instead of trying to negotiate? What are you looking for, exactly, by posting this thread? For an endless stream of validation of all your points? I was on the fence of actually agreeing with you about some of your points, but then Stagger posted some solid reasons about the zombies being "mindless" that made me realize the difference in L4D1/2 common appears to be intentional.

Sure, it may be silly to speculate intentions, but the end result is the point--the L4D2 common are actually a threat and annoying because they are a challenge. L4D1 zombies were impotent punching bags that toppled like dominoes.

And now that I think about the unshoveable moments, I think I see a technical reason why they would be so. I mean, if they're ducking under a bench, there isn't a "stumbling under object" animation that would keep the zombie from clipping through the floor.

Ti_sonabull
02-11-2011, 11:28 PM
All 3 zombies teleport out of thin air, happens every game now. Way to ruin the engine, Valve.

A few have mentioned this bug before, but many deny its existence. So, here it is on video in all its glory, the magical spawning zombies. You are running through a totally empty room, and poof, zombies out of thin air, either right behind/beside you or in this case right on top of you so you can't move until you bash it dead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1R6pZbyx_0

(Running stock game, no mods, Realism expert local server on a top of the line PC.)

The code used to dictate that zombies came in consistent with what the player had just seen. So in the old days an empty street could only fill with CI if they came from houses, over fences, from behind buildings or trucks, even if you turned your back for a half second while doing a mouse whirl-around. It could not fill by teleportation. If you whirled around for a quarter second, the game used to know that that wasn't enough time for a horde to realistically run into an empty area. No longer true, if you glance quickly to the right then forward again, 30 enemies have appeared in 1/10th second, they would have had to cross 30 feet of empty space in that time, impossible. I think the code used to keep track of what survivors had seen and reconcile zombie spawns such that they obeyed the laws of physics, so the player could build a picture of the current world and its known occupants, and develop/alter strategy on the fly. That level of real world immersion was great in this game, and that is what has been lost.

Addendum: I think you people who say it NEVER happens, probably don't notice it or don't care about consistency and a game obeying predictable laws of physics. That's my guess. But either way, lots of people ARE affected by this, and it's a gamebreaker for us. In the words of my good friend, a very famous CS gamer from way back who has contributed some very high-view count L4D2 discussions on this forum, "Left4Dead 2 is ♥♥♥♥ now." I still try to hold out hope this gets fixed. But it ain't looking good.

Some more entertaining stuff here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/titsonabullsteam

Xalphin
02-12-2011, 08:29 PM
They aren't bugs. Even the one I don't care for (lone zombie appearing behind you) doesn't appear to be a bug. It seems to be something Valve did on purpose however aggravating it can be just to amp up the difficulty.


qft^^

Ti_sonabull
02-12-2011, 08:47 PM
They aren't bugs. Even the one I don't care for (lone zombie appearing behind you) doesn't appear to be a bug. It seems to be something Valve did on purpose however aggravating it can be just to amp up the difficulty.

qft^^

When zombies spawn on top of your character's space such that you can't even move at all until you bash it dead because it is "blocking" every direction (as in my video) that IS a bug. It doesn't fit any plot line to have zombies materialize out of thin air half inside your own body, unless you're watching the Fly or Star Trek, but this is a zombie game. Clearly, that is a BUG. Fact is, no other FPS in history that I played resorted to this, and plenty were very hard, without teleporting enemies. It's fake and lazy, breaks the immersion and breaks strategy because it defies the laws of physics. Bug.

Buick72
02-12-2011, 09:12 PM
Yeah the worst area I have seen for CI spawning directly on top of you is the Dark Carnival finale, when your in the last bathroom before you are outside. Entire hordes will spawn inside that bathroom with you in it, or staring into it with the door wide open.

Also, it seems every time a charger comes after you, successful charge or not, 1-2 CI spawn behind/near you to assist him, or block you from dodging his charge.

Then again on Expert/co-op in general my friends and I just call the charger punchy, as it's almost all he does. Spawn next to you and punch the bejesus out of you till dead.

Ti_sonabull
02-12-2011, 09:30 PM
Yeah the worst area I have seen for CI spawning directly on top of you is the Dark Carnival finale, when your in the last bathroom before you are outside. Entire hordes will spawn inside that bathroom with you in it, or staring into it with the door wide open.

Also, it seems every time a charger comes after you, successful charge or not, 1-2 CI spawn behind/near you to assist him, or block you from dodging his charge.

Then again on Expert/co-op in general my friends and I just call the charger punchy, as it's almost all he does. Spawn next to you and punch the bejesus out of you till dead.

Lol, misery loves company but I feel your pain :o In early to mid 2010, there wasn't this rampant problem, you could trust enemies not to invade your piece of the space-time continuum, or not to beam down from their starship en masse a foot behind you into your otherwise empty room when your back was turned during a 1/10th second spin-around. The game felt real back then! Tbh, one of the reasons I rarely play this game now is because whenever I do, this teleportation spawning happens a lot, breaks my momentum, breaks the immersion, and irritates the crap out of me. Valve's answer to people whining about how easy the game was (and most of them were probably just trying to sound skilled) was to ruin its physics.

PizzaSHARK!
02-12-2011, 10:04 PM
Sure, it may be silly to speculate intentions, but the end result is the point--the L4D2 common are actually a threat and annoying because they are a challenge. L4D1 zombies were impotent punching bags that toppled like dominoes.

This. L4D2's zombies with erratic pathfinding is not a bug - it's intentional, and it improves the experience.

Ti_sonabull
02-12-2011, 10:10 PM
This. L4D2's zombies with erratic pathfinding is not a bug - it's intentional, and it improves the experience.

Agreed on the erratic pathing, unless the path starts in a space that physics dictates is impossible, like the middle of a room or road a foot from you that was empty a millisecond before, or worse yet inside your own body. That is irritating because it's a programming bug. Let's make things harder, let's make zombies erratic, crazy and fast, and dish out great damage. But let's have them obey the laws of physics.

Acermors
02-12-2011, 10:44 PM
The best is when you shove a zombie who's standing still, and yet it doesn't get knocked back--it just instantly starts punching you. That's happened every so often and is pretty annoying.

Can't remember if this happens in L4D1.

pappaskurtz
02-12-2011, 10:47 PM
Ti, can you elaborate more on the conditions of zombies spawning on top of you? Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've never had that happen to me...

Ti_sonabull
02-12-2011, 11:10 PM
Ti, can you elaborate more on the conditions of zombies spawning on top of you? Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've never had that happen to me...

You might be running, or doing a running fight, and they spawn in your body. Even in a closed map like Port, if you run, some might call it "rushing", sigh. In my video you can see this happen (I just annotated it), the first zombie I cannot separate from for a few seconds, I am stuck, you can even see the inside of its head in the video, I am partly inside the zombie! You must usually bash it until it dies, to separate and move again. If you are running and are suddenly stopped cold without having been punched, it just happened to you, but from behind. Often you are then punched a moment later by the same zombie, not always, which might make you think the punch stopped you, but if the punch came after, it was a teleporting zombie invading your space.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1R6pZbyx_0

Sifer2
02-13-2011, 12:55 AM
I wouldn't doubt if some of the zig zagging was added on purpose to make it more challenging. Though it has made the Pipe Bomb an Boomer too weak. Like others said in L4D1 zombies pathed so well it was easy to gib them all by just aiming at head level as they ran in a line. The resistance also is good at adding more challenge. Though I agree that its frustrating with shotguns. Having to headshot with a shotgun at close range should not be necessary.

Now the stuff about them being immune to shoves, running through you an the like definitely needs to be fixed. It's got me killed plenty of times in Expert unfairly. Though its an even bigger issue on special infected. Shoving an them hitting you anyway for massive damage is not acceptable.

Buick72
02-13-2011, 01:12 AM
The best is when you shove a zombie who's standing still, and yet it doesn't get knocked back--it just instantly starts punching you. That's happened every so often and is pretty annoying.

Can't remember if this happens in L4D1.

It does happen in l4d1, but only when they get stuck in objects.

In l4d2 it happens much more often, really only an issue on expert, or sometimes VS. In VS I have had up to 4 CI stuck in a table I was standing on punching me and pinning me in place. Shoving had no effect even after 5 shoves. The worst is when a riot cop UCC gets stuck on something, because you can't just shoot him and be done with it like CI. HE will be melee/shove proof till a teammate can get behind him and end it, and if his back is to the wall so they can't shoot kill him.... hopefully someone has a grenade launcher hehe.

It basically makes it so you don't stand on anything, tables, chairs, desks, counters cars even.... I have even seen CI get stuck in stair cases.

On my friends server he has a mod running so that if a CI gets stuck in something you can just shove it twice (I think, maybe three times) and it dies no matter what it is, cop or common. SO it fixes that invincible stuck CI syndrome.

In l4d2 zombies that are falling and climbing, can become push proof. Also when they are getting up from a sitting/laying down position, when shoved, can instantly go from sitting/laying down to standing up behind you and punching.

It's very annoying on certain modes. Seems the only way to deal with it is to not stand on/near certain things and watch for certain animations and just shoot instead of shoving. There even seem to be animations that make CI immune to melee weapons, you'll hear the crack of the bat, see blood fly, but nothing happens.

gatherto
02-13-2011, 01:24 AM
what ticks me off with shoving is the hunter's tuck and roll, which usually leads to 20 more health taken off than i feel i deserved

5thSurvivor
02-13-2011, 03:30 AM
Anyone played I Hate Mountains church level for both games?

That event is a freaking nightmare in L4D1. The L4D1 zombies don't get stuck running in circles around nothing and actually go for you.

The new L4D2 version is pretty much easymode as long as you remember where the W key is. Too much L4D2 makes me forget the commons actually have more movespeed than survivors.

soulripper
02-13-2011, 05:56 AM
you know that common that is always randomly behind you ?
you checked 2-3 times turn around and hes there

running from a tank? hes there
trying to crown a witch? hes there!
trying to snipe that obvious hunter? HES THERE!!!!!
trying to make a new meme on the steam forums? HE'S THE-

Aelok
02-13-2011, 06:04 AM
I agree with OP.