Being unable to crown the witch in realism...

[Shazam]

Bandaid solution.

I mean, how, precisely, does that make sense? There are 6 different ways to take out the witch:

1) Crowning her.
2) Shooting her, then gunning her down (aka drawcrown if shotgun does a ton of damage)
3) Shooting her in the head, then gunning her down quickly before she reorients
4) Lighting her on fire
5) Shooting her in the head with a high caliber round (AK and up) then shove spamming her and swinging melee.
6) Putting a propane tank right on her, then using the stumble in a similar way to 5.

Of all these methods, only method 1 and 5 put considerable risk on the survivors. Only 1 and 4 work on walking witches, but it's still not going to make them useful, as walking witches are as avoidable as ever, which was their worst quality, and even then, their slower reaction time leaves them more susceptible to team melee spam, which is about as risky as a crown anyway if done coordinated.

So basically, all the devs have done is force the survivors hands on two issues:

For the sitting witch, survivors are now forced to use even less scrupulous methods, as the one that rewarded skill more and punished infected negligence more has been removed.

For the walking witch survivors are forced to do... absolutely nothing different, as she is avoidable as ever. At most, survivors will have to stay put till she moves, which isn't a big deal in a mode with medkits. Seeing as the mode also has t2s, all the survivors really need to do is have sniper/hr shoot her from far off, then spam her down on the way there if they can't wait it out. Even t1s can be sufficient for this, particularly if there's melee involved.

Okay, so I've established that this is an insufficient fix that is almost insulting... what's my replacement proposal?

Make the witch crownable, BUT, give her triple to quadruple the HP when she's startled. Make crowns only achievable by headshot (on ALL game modes). Set the wandering witch's path more in the way and make her much quicker to anger (so that she's scary, the way that she was assumed to be when news of l4d2 came out). Also, get rid of that pause that the walking witch has before she goes to shred face, where she looks all surprised. Even with the triple health, that's a precious second. Have her go at it immediately.

While you're at it, make the sitting witch a little quicker to anger as well, but not too much, and make her more likely to be in the path of survivors. And when a witch is burned with a molotov, make it slow her down less (though still more than default) and burn her slower.

What will these changes do to change the dynamic? For one thing, they will narrow down the effective methods of dealing witch a witch down to only the more skillfull ones, making the easier "safer" methods more of a gamble than even crowning or HR stunlocking.

It will considerably diminish autoshotty spam's effectiveness on witches unless people are willing to put 3 autoshotties in her path. It's either got to be a crown, or it's a no-go. And since crowns are made harder (no back-crowns), that's not as easy a task.

If the survivors find a way to cheese around this to weasel out of crowning (as they will), make the witch quicker to switch targets, perhaps even go after 2 survivors if you engage her from far off, and you've made her a truly formidable obstacle.

Now, I'm more on the 'hardcore' spectrum of gamers, so I'd prefer this change be made on ALL game modes. The only difference between realism and vanilla, in my eyes, should be the severity of the penalty for messing up the witch (death vs incap).

Perhaps this solution could be toned down a bit (quad health might be a little much, but triple health sounds about right), but upon examining the consequences, it's much more on the right track than the current bandaid.

[Snookers]

Uncrownable wandering witches with incread alert.

Crownable sitting witches.

Both with instant kills, of course.

[Woden]

Make the witch crownable, BUT, give her triple to quadruple the HP when she's startled. Make crowns only achievable by headshot (on ALL game modes).

I've been saying that since L4D1 was maybe six months old. Here's hoping they listen someday.

Set the wandering witch's path more in the way and make her much quicker to anger (so that she's scary, the way that she was assumed to be when news of l4d2 came out). Also, get rid of that pause that the walking witch has before she goes to shred face, where she looks all surprised. Even with the triple health, that's a precious second. Have her go at it immediately.

While you're at it, make the sitting witch a little quicker to anger as well, but not too much, and make her more likely to be in the path of survivors. And when a witch is burned with a molotov, make it slow her down less (though still more than default) and burn her slower.

I agree completely. (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19760070) Although I did not think of the Molotov suggestions, which I like.

[Gogol]

You forgot a couple other methods, like closing a door in her face when she is startled, or shooting her and running away to mess with her pathing, or just finding a high area (like, over 5 feet) and then startling her from there as she's an easy target when she's going through the climb animation.

I like your idea of leaving her crownable but once she's startled, good luck keeping all 4 survivors alive. She shouldn't get stumbled as easily, and I think having her go for whatever survivor is closest over who shot her would help out too.

Oh, and fix the whole "ledge hang to win" thing when dealing with the Witch. It's rather cheap.

[gatherto]

i agree that uncrownable witches are an issue, but i think your fix is a bit lacking. for one, you remove several of the options for dealing with her, with no purpose. the issue was always crowning with autoshottie; i don't think anyone has ever thought lighting the witch and running is imba (for example)

why not simply give the witch immunity for the second shot fired by one surviver, so that if one is able to successfully crown her in 1 shot, or if 2 survivers go for a dual crown (as happened in a recent match) she dies

[Smear]

It'd be nice if they fixed the: "Shoot Witch, move into safe room, snicker" thing. Did they take care of that while I've been gone?

[Euclix]

Don't forget about the fact she can't climb a ladder if you're on it. So if it's the only way up, she can't get you. But that's a problem with all the infected except probably the hunter, jockey, and smoker.

Not being able to crown her on realism is fine with me. I like taking her out other methods anyways. I think the best solution to make her more of a thret is to spawn a horde when she's startled. And make the wandering witch easier to startle.

[gatherto]

I think the best solution to make her more of a thret is to spawn a horde when she's startled.

depending on what counts as "startled," this is the best idea i've seen. iirc, she's classified as startled when she actually starts running and mauling survivers, and not if she's repeatedly stumbled. i think it should spawn a horde as soon as she is pissed (ie, as soon as she is shot or someone is in close range for long enough), but not if that one shot kils her (i do want witches to be crownable so long as it's not by autoshottie spam. if you can crown her with a pump, or with 1 shot from a tactical, there really should be no downside)

[No_wander_off]

i never liked the idea of uncownable witches. it's indeed a bandaid.

@gatherto: i think that is what they should've done as well, it provdes a great counter for <insert any method of killing the witch here>.

[Monochrom]

I could be wrong, but wasn't the whole Idea of the Witch to avoid her...

[No_wander_off]

I could be wrong, but wasn't the whole Idea of the Witch to avoid her...

that didn't stop players from crowning her/killing her/glitching her, etc.

[Some_weirdGuy]

They need to just make her straight out invincible ;)

[TheCombatMedic]

How about, no?

[No_wander_off]

How about, no?

if you can't add anything useful to the topic, please refrain from posting.

[gatherto]

if you can't add anything useful to the topic, please refrain from posting.

i think that was directed at the "make her invincible" comment, which itself didn't contribute


edit: upon seeing his reply (next page) i find out i am entirely wrong, and he's simply ragging on the OP in an inconstructive manner.

[TheCombatMedic]

And why? With the sheer amount of "ideas" I been seeing here, I have every right to say how dumb they are, whether they be a few words or a paragraph's worth.

[xxxVJ300xxx]

Perhaps this solution could be toned down a bit (quad health might be a little much, but triple health sounds about right), but upon examining the consequences, it's much more on the right track than the current bandaid.

Are you serious? 3,000hp for an infected thats thinner then the charger? That's not what she needs. The only buff we need is to wandering witches, a bullet that goes by her should set her off. Increasing her health ISNT the right direction.

[CanadaRox]

The biggest problem with uncrownable witches is when you don't have T2s. Valve has force two options: (1) A survivor dies or (2) Exploit.
(1) is bad because the team loses points at no fault to either team.
(2) being forced to use exploits by the developers of the game? WAT?!
And guess what, No Mercy 1 never has T2s and ALWAYS has a witch!

Not to say its fine with T2s, but just having this one huge argument showing how game breaking it is should really be enough.

[Voyager II]

fun-facts : sitting witches on fire run slower than healthy survivors - wandering witches on fire run faster than healthy survivors.

why does this difference even exist.

[Kinkade!]

I could be wrong, but wasn't the whole Idea of the Witch to avoid her...

That why l4d1 witch was better, she was 99.9% of the time in a hot spot where she was unavoidable.

l4d2 witch placement is a joke in hard rain 3 she is sometimes at the top of a ladder on a roof, a roof that we have absolutely no reason to go on.

It looks like there isnt enough room to get off the ladder and get your gun out, but I tried it last week just to see and you can crown her............ just.

[Kinkade!]

Personally Id make her crownable but to only one shot, in the face, old school.

Then she becomes imune from damage for 2 seconds or so, so you either do a perfect crown or die. Basically it makes auto shottys the same use as pumps.

[ProdigySim]

Last time this thread was here, it made a big difference. (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1691953)
:|

The only good came out of it was Dynastically correctly identifying the reason why witch crowns were removed:
The only problem with the crowning were the autoshotguns... with a normal shotgun it was already damn hard on Realism VS since you only had one shot, and if it didn't hit the head real nicely, you were dead.
At least if we're talking about a game with competent SI who do not just sit by and watch...

Other things mentioned in this thread are the real problem.
Burning her takes no skill at all and is usually a safe witch kill.
Same goes for going into the saferoom or incapping yourself.

Or that the witch has a too small agro radius, takes too long to get up, has a very poor pathfinding (her turn speed is really low), or sometimes bugs and does not attack a survivor at all.

[No_wander_off]

And why? With the sheer amount of "ideas" I been seeing here, I have every right to say how dumb they are, whether they be a few words or a paragraph's worth.

This is a forum, there are rules. if you take the effort the make a thread, the last thing you want is a reply containig just a few words. don't troll.

fun-facts : sitting witches on fire run slower than healthy survivors - wandering witches on fire run faster than healthy survivors.

why does this difference even exist.

That's moronic. it kind of reminds me to the whole "tank fire slowdown" thing.

another thing Valve needs to adress.

Last time this thread was here, it made a big difference. (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1691953)
:|

The only good came out of it was Dynastically correctly identifying the reason why witch crowns were removed:

in my opinion, they could have changed other things. her reaction and her speed should have been the priority, it's a shame.

currently, players just glitch her or set her on fire. way to go l4dteam.

[Tyrant vs Tank]

I've suggested it many times before.

Playable/Spawnable witch in rotation with some adjusted mechanics but that seems to be a real no-no amongst the community.

- Guaranteed one spawn per map in rotation in either versus mode
- Chance of more than one spawn goes up depending on survivor status
- You can spawn either witch but can only move the wandering witch and have no control over the attack mechanism unless you activate it before survivors are in range

[vamtheanomaly]

Cant you still power shoot her? That is get close as you can with an auto shot gun and blare away before she kills you.

[gatherto]

Cant you still power shoot her? That is get close as you can with an auto shot gun and blare away before she kills you.

nope
not just 1 person, that is
afaik, 2 people simul blasting her kills her before she mauls you

[Shazam]

Are you serious? 3,000hp for an infected thats thinner then the charger? That's not what she needs. The only buff we need is to wandering witches, a bullet that goes by her should set her off. Increasing her health ISNT the right direction.

Oh, I'm sorry. Did I accidentally name my topic "Hay guyz, let's make this even EASIER 4 bad survivors lolololol"? My bad.

[Shazam]

Last time this thread was here, it made a big difference. (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1691953)
:|

The only good came out of it was Dynastically correctly identifying the reason why witch crowns were removed:

Yes, yes, valve is quite notorious for not listening to jack ♥♥♥♥ until at least 20 threads have been made for it and 6 months have passed. Still worth a shot.

[Shazam]

In hindsight, 3k probably needs to be scaled down. Maybe make her startled health 2k-2.5k... but set it at that once startled regardless of how much damage was done to her before she was startled.

The biggest things to patch that I hadn't mentioned are of course the exploits... she should instakill incaps of any sort on realism, punch down doors and saferoom doors alike (except for exits) just like a tank, and probably do more damage to incaps on non realism modes. Having heard of the difference in movespeed between walking witches and sitters when lit... well, of course that needs a change. But both should be less drastic. Maybe make her go the speed of 100% survivors rather than faster or slower when lit.

Naturally, valve will probably just wrap more bandages around this subject, but having more support shown for making the witch less of an exploitable joke (there's more ways to thwart her than most specials) COULDN'T hurt our odds.

If they go with this solution, there is one more thing that may need addressing to prevent the witch from becoming too absolute an obstacle for your average team: Make her crownable by headshot only, but headshottable at all stages of her rage.

The hitbox gets funky sometimes if you don't shoot her head at the right time; too early, it noregs (or appears to), too late, noregs. Maybe make the hitbox for it just a teensy bit bigger for this reason. Still harder than a "back-crown", but less prone to flukes.