The weight of importance of the Charger and/or Spitter

[Tyrant vs Tank]

Just running through a couple campaigns on VS with only the L4D1 infected lineup on Dark Carnival, the Sacrifice and Swamp Fever.

Couple things to notice besides the obvious crying 'ZOMG too many hunters, where is the charger, etc' as if they never played L4D1 before.

1. Dark Carnival Finale plays a lot better with just those 3 infected. The specials are able to be mobile and get to places quicker than they ever can with a charger or jockey in play or a spitter who needs to be in certain spots.

2. The Sacrifice with more hunters is just fun. You can arguably hit them a lot harder than you can with a charger/jockey/spitter in play.

3. Swamp Fever becomes a lot more fun and strategic when its just the Smoker/Hunter/Boomer/potential Quad cap combo. Again it comes down to special infected mobility being FAR greater with more hunters in play then when not in play. They can take different paths, move around much better and are not obvious straight line targets like a spitter/charger once its used its charge or the jockey.

So I guess the point is. What is the weight of importance of the L4D2 special infected?

It's been said that the L4D1 rotation of infected better suits the L4D2 style of wide open campaigns and in all fairness. That's probably the truth. Easier to manage, easier to maneuver, etc.

On the flip side, playing through No Mercy and/or other L4D1 campaigns as custom campaigns adds a lot more depth to the Charger whose harder to juke in closer spacing and the spitter importance also becomes greater in tighter areas.

Don't get me wrong, I love a good death charge or an opportunity to hit all 4 survivors at once for potential multiple incaps/kills but you really could argue the roles should have been reversed.

Hunter/Charger/Smoker/Boomer/Spitter in L4D1

Hunterx2/Smoker/Boomer in L4D2 with Quad Cap potential rotation

[prophecy holder]

As said before the main role of the spitter and charger were made specifically to deal with corner campers, not to be damage dealing special infected like the hunter or smoker. The roll of the jockey on the other hand is to make people burst out laughing at the sheer silliness.

Tighter areas is where the special infected shine, more open areas is where everything goes to hell. Qaud caps need to make a return but should not be the end all be all of tactics.

[ryancee7]

The Jockey is great in realism and also if you get everyone boomed and swarmed, picking one out with a jockey can be great, since outlines and names are invisible when you have puke on ya.

The spitter can really lay down the damage when everyones swarmed with a boomer, or knocked down by a charge, or being charged, she is infact really powerful if you use her in a team sense.

The Charger, well hello, insta deaths, 10 dmg smacks in the face, and the ability to bowl over a team and by the time they all get you you got 3 smacks in, which can do 45 damage. Also if you incap someone and decide to move a boomer in, if used right the charger stumbles dropping them and he can be used again, fully charged ready to go.

I personally think they're very important, they add more skill by not allowing you to just do quad caps, however it can be frustrating in wide open spaces, like you said spit and charges are easily avoided, but this when you use the help of a smoker, to get that charge in ;P

I personally think it would be neat to up the chance of people getting pinners, or hunters/smokers/boomers in wide open areas the up the chance of boomers/spitters/chargers etc in smaller spaces.

[Kinkade!]

The Jockey is great in realism and also if you get everyone boomed and swarmed, picking one out with a jockey can be great, since outlines and names are invisible when you have puke on ya.

.

The jockey is just as useless in realism actually.

The lack of speed into and out of an attack means 9 times out of 10 its a wasted infected.

[Newbpal]

It's really all in the level design. The game mechanics simply do not work if the level design is bad.

The more elevation, the more fog/darkness, the more debris to use/spawn with the better. The more latters the better, and the more maneuverability via rooftops the better. That is where the focus should be when developing a left 4 dead style game: the level design.

[Tyrant vs Tank]

All good points made so far especially about level design

I didn't really include the jockey in my OP simply because I don't find him too useful either. At one time or another I felt he had potential but to say he's a waste in the line up is probably non negotiable at this point.

Replacing him with hunter x2 I'd be fine with.

Jockey's attack is too slow developing, doesn't speed up at all and simply doesn't leave the survivor team in a position where they know they have to worry about him.

He's the special infected equivalent of a common infected that could jump on you only to be killed by a simple push away. Hell the common might even last longer than that.

[No_wander_off]

they were designed to solve the problems of L4D1.

the charger, as chet said, it's to break thight groups. the spitter's role is to fight camping. the jockey was made for separation (the charger and smoker can already do this anyways, and more effectively most of the time).

and yes, 2 hunters sometimes are just a lot of fun. always. not saying it's ideal either.

*derp* posting what everyone knows *derp*

[Newbpal]

The survivors are just too good for the jockey to be a major threat. In certain scenarios, he can be a beast. But in general he simply does not do enough to be a credible threat.

One of the main factors to look for to make an attack successful is to get the survivors to drop a "color" in there health so that they move slower. And the jockey simply can not deliver on that criteria. He can pin a survivor, and that's about it.

At least with hunters you can pin, but you can also deliver huge damage with a hunter. Decent damage while pinned and you can even get a high pounce to do 25 damage. And the charger can knock down all the survivors and he has a beastly claw attack. The smoker has a ranged pin. The jockey serves no real niche in the game, and is a real handicap to the SI except in those few circumstantial parts of the game where you are up high and near a ledge.

If they placed a hunter in to every time a jockey spawns, you would have a much more potent SI setup.

[Sud]

the problem is, and will always be, the fact that the SI game becomes vastly different based on the terrain. So, when you're solving problems related to tight, hallways and corridor play with the charger and spitter, then do a complete design 180 with l4d2's wide open, no rooftop maps, you completely invalidate your work.

And I don't know what's worse, the fact that I'm some dumbass on the internet pointing this out, or the fact that this wasn't immediately obvious to a multi million dollar game design company.

[prophecy holder]

the problem is, and will always be, the fact that the SI game becomes vastly different based on the terrain. So, when you're solving problems related to tight, hallways and corridor play with the charger and spitter, then do a complete design 180 with l4d2's wide open, no rooftop maps, you completely invalidate your work.

And I don't know what's worse, the fact that I'm some dumbass on the internet pointing this out, or the fact that this wasn't immediately obvious to a multi million dollar game design company.

Logic and intelligence goes out the window when the possibility of quick $$$ comes into play.

[Black Jesus]

The jockey is just as useless in realism actually.

The lack of speed into and out of an attack means 9 times out of 10 its a wasted infected.


^ This.

There is only one scenario where a jockey is going to be superior to any other incap special: When you have a very tight area (think the t2 weapon room on second level of DC) with a nearby corner. One survivor is down and another is helping him up, these are the only two survivors, and a smoker smoking the up survivor would be close enough that a normal pistol would quickly put him down. Jockeys are good in this scenario because you can rather quickly drag the undowned survivor out of LoS and win the game, but that's still a pretty stupidly specific scenario for one special to shine.

[Sideways Earth]

They should have left the Jockey's damage alone and eased up on the survivor resistance. A quicker jockey ride would help with what he was actually intended for.

[Newbpal]

They should have left the Jockey's damage alone and eased up on the survivor resistance. A quicker jockey ride would help with what he was actually intended for.

My xbox is broken and I haven't played in forever.

How much is his damage now? Is that for Scavenge and versus?

[.:TBC:. Runner]

It's really all in the level design. The game mechanics simply do not work if the level design is bad.

The more elevation, the more fog/darkness, the more debris to use/spawn with the better. The more latters the better, and the more maneuverability via rooftops the better. That is where the focus should be when developing a left 4 dead style game: the level design.

Couldn't aggree more that the levels are the key aspect of the game, imo the many difference between 1 and 2 is the map design as the charger and spitter as already stated would really batter people in the l4d1 maps like they are ment two.

With reference to the dual hunters i would love to see this come back as a i think it was a key attack aspect of the first game; shouldn't happen every spawn but should be possible and regular... but then theres the invisible walls to deal with.... steam don't like the hunter even tho its the best SI (see link)
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1757895

The jockey is marmite but it is deffinatly the weak link as it needs a perfect situation to become usefull. He's great for picking of people at the edge of an attack after a smoker, hunter, charger or boom especially as when the ♥♥♥♥ hits the fan the guy at the back really pays for the group breaking formation - its good when used like a hunter to protect and maxmise other attacks just a shame the guy is sooo weak and gimpy

[Volg]

^ This.

There is only one scenario where a jockey is going to be superior to any other incap special: When you have a very tight area (think the t2 weapon room on second level of DC) with a nearby corner. One survivor is down and another is helping him up, these are the only two survivors, and a smoker smoking the up survivor would be close enough that a normal pistol would quickly put him down. Jockeys are good in this scenario because you can rather quickly drag the undowned survivor out of LoS and win the game, but that's still a pretty stupidly specific scenario for one special to shine.

Agreed. Jockey is just purely situational. The mechanics work only in the latter parts of the map, when all survivors are barely pushing through and you have at least one incapped.

But on a regular basis? ugh no.. I mean, you can stumble a whole team with a charger, puke on them and let the jockey grab the farthest one. Even if he manages to dodge the atrocious 360 melee spam followed by shotgun to the face and actually grab a survivor, steering speed is not as fast as you'd want it to. You have to go through pesky commons blocking your way and the occasional slowdown from the victim pushing the other way. Even then you're not getting very far, as a couple of shots from the uzi will put you down in no time.

Honestly? replace the jockey with an extra hunter and move him into play on the latter parts of the maps. That'd make a LOT of people happier.

[Stagger Lee]

The Jockey is very useful. While I witness people using him horribly all the time, some use him very effectively.

Is he situational? Yes. All the S.I. are.

[henrikhe]

The Jockey is very useful. While I witness people using him horribly all the time, some use him very effectively.

Is he situational? Yes. All the S.I. are.

yes, i was just about to type this with more words and less coherency. it seems like people expect him to do wonders on his own.. which he can, but not most of the time. a speed up would make him easier to use tho.

[Woden]

The charger and spitter were designed by the community to fix problems in L4D1's maps. They were then added to L4D2, which has entirely new problems with its maps that the spitter and charger do nothing against.

The jockey is a badly-implemented joke that should not have been put in the game at all, because he only serves to reduce the damage-dealing potential of the already weak infected.

Long story short, Valve doesn't understand how to design L4D for versus.

[larrybrains]

Interesting little test you did there.

I have to wonder though, did the survivors adapt to playing the game l4d1 style?

What I mean is, did they corner camp for hordes and SI attacks? For some reason I doubt it, and so this test is kind of meaningless.

Most people rush in l4d2 and spread out quite a bit more than in l4d1 for attacks. Since it was a public server (judging by how you said people were mad at the lack of the other SI) I am guessing they still rushed and kept spread out.

If they took out the charger and spitter and jockey on the l4d2 maps, players would just adapt to playing the game like l4d1.

[Tyrant vs Tank]

Couple times they camped. A lot of the time it was just bad survivor play. Only twice did a team make it to the safe room. The survival bonus was 500 per survivor so the score was considerably higher in the event of a success.

Things to note though on the server.

- 1 incap = Black and White
- Witch is playable
- Tank runs at the speed he would in L4D1 when on fire but without the fire
- The common horde is a mix of regular common and all uncommon infected including Jimmy Gibbs and excluding the Fallen so its harder for survivors to get the horde off with that congested mix
- Smoker tongue about considerably longer with the same speed on discharge but faster acceleration when the survivor is wrapped

Those were the changes.