Why keep using GFWL?

[cheeriokilla]

Seriously... It sucks.. If you're a game dev, and want to release your game on pc, don't use GFWL... please...

[DarkPGR]

why? because hammer legion members and thieves don't like it? It's the only DRM that stops thieves from using the game before release, and completely stoops them from multiplayer afterwards (stuff no other drm does).

LIVE made it a worthy purchase on PC. If it wasn't LIVE, I would've gotten it on Xbox 360 (Since that would've been the overall better version).

[pat_pat]

It's the only DRM that stops thieves from using the game before release, and completely stoops them from multiplayer afterwards (stuff no other drm does).

Steamworks does the same thing, no need to put DRM into DRM.

Since that would've been the overall better version

ahaha oh wow

[DarkPGR]

eh, no? steamworks games are cracked and playable before release most of the time, and can be played online on non-VAC protected servers... so no, steamworks doesn't do any of that.

Dead Rising 2 wasn't cracked until after release (which means, thieves couldn't crack ZDPP), and months later they can't play online at all!

[N3oN667]

Oh no, you have to press one extra button before you can play! How dumb!

[DarkPGR]

Oh no, you have to press one extra button before you can play! How dumb!

One extra button the first time you play a LIVE game (if you click on Sign in Automatically, you just run the game and it works!). And with no extra programs slowing your PC boot time either, since it only signs in when you go in-game!

[Ryne S.]

Seriously... It sucks.. If you're a game dev, and want to release your game on pc, don't use GFWL... please...

I agree but hey you get fake achievement points that don't mean anything and don't unlock anything extra and you get a different friend base.

[VividNinjaScar]

Why not?

It does everything Steamworks can do, it is easier to port games to the PC, it comes from a company you know will be around in fifty years, and it is very user friendly in terms of DRM and ease of use.

[SunriseDriver]

Why keep using GFWL?
Why keep using Steam?

The only difference between them is Cloud and possibility to make screenshots.

[Sw00f]

GFWL is for game developers who forgot how to port games to the PC correctly and route everything through a pseudo XBox backend. It's unnecessary as a DRM, like all of them actually, since every game is gonna get cracked anyway.

And multiplayer? It's as effective in preventing players from multiplayer as a CD-Key, and besides being an emulation of XBox Live it's totally worthless.

[Mekast]

It does everything Steamworks can do
No, it does not.
GFWL is for game developers who forgot how to port games to the PC correctly and route everything through a pseudo XBox backend. It's unnecessary as a DRM, like all of them actually, since every game is gonna get cracked anyway.

And multiplayer? It's as effective in preventing players from multiplayer as a CD-Key, and besides being an emulation of XBox Live it's totally worthless.
And laggy.

[SunriseDriver]

GFWL is for game developers who forgot how to port games to the PC correctly and route everything through a pseudo XBox backend. It's unnecessary as a DRM, like all of them actually, since every game is gonna get cracked anyway.
Same I can say say for Steam. Darksiders, MX vs ATV Reflex, Kane & Lynch 2, AvP, Dreamkiller, Lost Planet, Bionic Commando, FM Evolved...

[Sw00f]

Same I can say say for Steam. Darksiders, MX vs ATV Reflex, Kane & Lynch 2, AvP, Dreamkiller, Lost Planet, Bionic Commando, FM Evolved...

Thankfully, Steam has some actual features, like buying games through Steam (with some nice sales I should mention), downloading through Steam, patching through Steam and nice community features.

[DarkPGR]

GFWL is for game developers who forgot how to port games to the PC correctly and route everything through a pseudo XBox backend. It's unnecessary as a DRM, like all of them actually, since every game is gonna get cracked anyway.

And multiplayer? It's as effective in preventing players from multiplayer as a CD-Key, and besides being an emulation of XBox Live it's totally worthless.

Yeah, every game will be cracked. But steamworks games are cracked before release and thieves can enjoy the complete game, including multiplayer. LIVE games are only cracked AFTER release, and even then thieves are completely locked out of multiplayer.

Thankfully, Steam has some actual features, like buying games through Steam (with some nice sales I should mention), downloading through Steam, patching through Steam and nice community features.

You can also buy and download games through the Games for Windows Marketplace, and they have some INSANE deals ($0.99 games anyone? they have had 14 sales like that so far, and among the games on sale were Age of Empires III Complete Collection, Shadowrun, Viva Piñata, among others, for $0.99 each).

Patching through steam is the most buggy and slow experience possible... The downloads "Suspend" themselves, the speeds are way too unstable, some games end up corrupted and you're forced to completely remove and reinstall them (happened to me many times with different games on steam), it FORCES the patch down your throat, whether you like it or not (slow connection? too bad, you can't play then).

The community features are just about the same as those of LIVE, except that the achievements are even more pointless and multiplayer gaming requires a lot more steps.

[claffert]

Why not?

It does everything Steamworks can do, it is easier to port games to the PC, it comes from a company you know will be around in fifty years, and it is very user friendly in terms of DRM and ease of use.

It's at least possible that Microsoft will be around in 50 years, but to say that you know they will be is incredibly naive. Many big companies fail or fade into obscurity. We don't even know if the OS will be relevant in 50 years, or even the PC itself.

Besides, I'm not worried about whether Microsoft will be around long enough for me to continue to play my games, but that their services to authenticate those purchases will be.

For example, Microsoft dropped support for original XBoxes in XBox live at least a couple years ago, and those who purchased content there are out of luck. I don't doubt that eventually they will obsolete old PC games as well.

[lordofterror]

dont bother arguing on gfwl i recognize some of the members here from the gfwl forum, they will always defend the client no matter what others say

[DarkPGR]

It's at least possible that Microsoft will be around in 50 years, but to say that you know they will be is incredibly naive. Many big companies fail or fade into obscurity. We don't even know if the OS will be relevant in 50 years, or even the PC itself.

Besides, I'm not worried about whether Microsoft will be around long enough for me to continue to play my games, but that their services to authenticate those purchases will be.

For example, Microsoft dropped support for original XBoxes in XBox live at least a couple years ago, and those who purchased content there are out of luck. I don't doubt that eventually they will obsolete old PC games as well.

The original Xbox LIVE service was dropped only a year ago, and they stated the reasons quite clearly: LIVE on the first Xbox was somewhat hardcoded, so making improvements and changes to the network was close to impossible, since it would become incompatible... so they dropped that support to allow the network to grow... the way LIVE is coded now avoids said problem.

[MorningStar]

live is stupid, and warez gona be warez so no matter how good is the defense they always crack it up
devs should make more better games and release cheaper price, no need drm or other defense, good games are always blockbusters.

[dementedlullaby]

I use G4WL grudgingly since it's the only way to play some games. I really would prefer if devs didn't integrate it into games though. It was a nice try by MS but the functionality of their client in general is garbage.

Halo 2 for example took me so much extra work. I had to figure out that a file in the INF folder was messing with G4WL launching which in turn made Halo 2 not launch. Going through each file hoping to find the right one was not exactly fun...

[richard.eid]

For example, Microsoft dropped support for original XBoxes in XBox live at least a couple years ago, and those who purchased content there are out of luck. I don't doubt that eventually they will obsolete old PC games as well.

Same with the Zune Music store years back. And just like the old LIVE and games you purchased on it, all the music you bought at the Zune store went kaput. When Microsoft gives up on GFWL like they've done with other popular services in the past, the same thing will happen to the games you purchased on it.

[DarkPGR]

Same with the Zune Music store years back. And just like the old LIVE and games you purchased on it, all the music you bought at the Zune store went kaput. When Microsoft gives up on GFWL like they've done with other popular services in the past, the same thing will happen to the games you purchased on it.

Do you even know what you're talking about? The Zune Marketplace is still up and running, have you even used it? It even replaced the old Xbox LIVE Music and Video Store, and is an integral part of Windows Phone 7 as well.

http://www.zune.net/en-US/

It's an awesome media player as well, the social features (which are integrated with Xbox LIVE and Games for Windows LIVE) are very cool too.

[Gentlemen?]

Sometime in the future I will be able to play all my old games, except for a few titles that got infected with the GfWL virus.

Just like MSN Music Store.

http://www.techspot.com/news/29822-microsoft-to-cease-authorizing-msn-music-keys.html

[wazups 2x]

If the GFWL in-game interface wasn't so terrible I wouldn't hate it near as much. The interface is obviously made for a controller and the mouse and keyboard came as an afterthought. The Steam interface works much better, you don't have to go through a bunch of slow menus to get to everything.

I'm definitely no hater of Microsoft. I love Windows and I also love my Zune. I just hate Microsoft's game department, they don't care about PC gamers at all.

[SunriseDriver]

except for a few titles that got infected with the GfWL virus.
You can create an offline account which doesn't need to be online at all.

I'm not a Live supporter but I hate when people are spreading misinformation.

[richard.eid]

Do you even know what you're talking about?
Woops. It's been a few years now so I got the names mixed up, but Gentlemen virus has it right:
Sometime in the future I will be able to play all my old games, except for a few titles that got infected with the GfWL virus.

Just like MSN Music Store.

http://www.techspot.com/news/29822-microsoft-to-cease-authorizing-msn-music-keys.html

http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/006844.html

So yeah, your blind faith in Microsoft has led you astray. It's funny how there are a couple of you guys that come here to defend GFWL games to death. No matter how crappy, you think as long as a game has GFWL it'll be a good game. There are turds when it comes to Steamworks games, just like turds in the GFWL universe. The difference is that over here we try to support our statements with facts. Everyone coming from the GFWL forums spews whatever nonsense they think will support their arguments, but never have any facts to back it up.

The reason the OP asked this question is because there have been many iterations thus far with the GFWL client. None of them have done anything to satisfy the majority of PC gamers. In the long run, not just for Steam users but for everyone, having a game implemented with GFWL means long-term hassle. There are so many different setups a publisher can choose when deciding on GFWL integration and it's nice that the publisher has all these options, but none of them mean anything to the average gamer aside from an inconsistent experience while using the GFWL service. And with a complete lack of management options for any non-SSA titles, it's entirely feasible that a GFWL game will become unplayable and you'll need to repurchase. In this day and age, that's completely unacceptable. Imagine...you played a game too much so you have to buy it again!

With Steam, the experience is consistent across the board. You buy a game, it's yours. There's no messing with CD-keys or activation limits. The Community experience is far, far more complete than anything GFWL has offered to us up to this point. You can't even IM people on GFWL. And until this recent incarnation of the GFWL client, Microsoft didn't even offer a web store that you could browse and purchase from. You had to install the client to be able to purchase anything online. That's either a dirty trick or laziness on the GFWL developers' part. And everything that Microsoft is doing now to promote its store was done on Steam years ago. So nobody is all that impressed with GFWL. That's why the OP asked the question.

You've somehow turned this into a name-calling thread with the "Microsoft-hater troll"-like comments. The fact of the matter is that I don't think anyone here hates Microsoft too much. I'm a huge fan of them. I just don't think they put very much effort into PC gaming. They have a cash cow to focus on already so it would make sense that not enough care is given to this side of the market. It's completely undebatable, with regards to who has done more for the PC community, that Valve is the leader. So we're all just wondering why publishers waste our time with an inferior service that we have no reason to have any long-term confidence in.

[VividNinjaScar]

It's completely undebatable, with regards to who has done more for the PC community, that Valve is the leader.

No. Valve has done more for general consumers in recent years. Microsoft has done more for consumers and developers over all. DirectX, XNA, programming documentation, and iconic franchises are way, way more definitive of PC gaming than a store with a chat client. From the looks of things, Microsoft is about to becoming heavily invested in PC gaming again.

Just for the record, if Games for Windows does shut down, all the games will still be playable. Offline profiles are there, and require no activation. You do not have that same leisure with Steam.

[lordofterror]

No. Valve has done more for general consumers in recent years. Microsoft has done more for consumers and developers over all. DirectX, XNA, programming documentation, and iconic franchises are way, way more definitive of PC gaming than a store with a chat client. From the looks of things, Microsoft is about to becoming heavily invested in PC gaming again.

Just for the record, if Games for Windows does shut down, all the games will still be playable. Offline profiles are there, and require no activation. You do not have that same leisure with Steam.
valve has already said if it shuts down the games can be played offline sheesh some people will spew any garbage to defend gfwl

[YourOnlyFriend]

By the time pigs fly and Valve and Microsoft shut down your children/grandchildren will be able to download Call of Duty Black Ops, Half-Life 2 and Grand Theft Auto 4 off Abandonware sites.

I don't see what the paranoia with "I'll lose my games when X goes bankrupt!" is.

[DarkPGR]

valve has already said if it shuts down the games can be played offline sheesh some people will spew any garbage to defend gfwl

on one hand, we have valve's word (which is worth nothing, seeing how many times they don't deliver as promised, specially when they talk about release dates).

And on the other hand, we have a system that's already future-proof. Any sane, unbiased person can easily see a LIVE game is a safer investment.

[Chapa9dj]

Why not?
It does everything Steamworks can do,



:D:DI laughed epically (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOzN8gHvJlY):D:D

-You can't take screenshots.
-You can't update your games while doing other things.
-You can't verify integrity of game cache if something gets corrupted.
-You can't defragment cachefiles for the same reason as above.
-You can't IM.
-You can't create chatrooms.
-You can't open a browser while in-game.
-You can't create or join community groups.
-You can't use custom avatars.
-You can't recommend games.
-You can't have Cloud support.

[Tericc]

:D:DI laughed epically (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOzN8gHvJlY):D:D

-You can't take screenshots.
-You can't update your games while doing other things.
-You can't verify integrity of game cache if something gets corrupted.
-You can't defragment cachefiles for the same reason as above.
-You can't IM.
-You can't create chatrooms.
-You can't open a browser while in-game.
-You can't create or join community groups.
-You can't use custom avatars.
-You can't recommend games.
-You can't have Cloud support.

-personnel preference
-This can cause an issue
-delete/redownload
-As above^^
-Ventrilo/skype.. plenty of other ways.
-Your Pc doesn't like you.
-Forums don't exist.
-Personnel preference
-Having Rl friends is good for you.
-Personnel preference.

As a question of personnel preference. Do you buy games to play them or did you just buy them for a glorified chat room?

[DarkPGR]

@ the professional troll Chapa9dj

You CAN take screenshots in-game, hit the Print Screen key on your keyboard, or use the Snipping Tool... works for me!

You CAN update your games while doing other things... start the download and Alt+TAB out of the game... and as an extra, said download isn't mandatory, the system doesn't force it down your throat.

No need to verify integrity since the game files don't tend to get corrupted (on steam is a must, since you never know when an steam download or update will go wrong).

No point on defragmenting isolated files if the rest of the hard drive is a mess... a full, scheduled defrag beats steam's defrag any day (And is faster and more useful).

Cloud support is there, it's up to the devs to use it.

As of the rest of your point, they are so stupid there's no point on replying, specially since you can simply click on "add a non-steam game" and get all that functionality LOL!

[Chapa9dj]

-personnel preference
-This can cause an issue
Of course
-delete/redownload
Not interested
-As above^^
Not interested
-Ventrilo/skype.. plenty of other ways.
Not interested in another app running in my computer.
-Your Pc doesn't like you.
That doesn't make any sense. Pathetic troll attempt
-Forums don't exist.
This is a forum.
-Personnel preference
Of course
-Having Rl friends is good for you.
Thankfully i have a lot.
-Personnel preference.
Of course, again. That's why i choose Steam
As a question of personnel preference. Do you buy games to play them or did you just buy them for a glorified chat room?

I buy games just to play it. Your question doesn't make any sense.
Looks we have a perfectly well crafted troll coming directly from the GFWL forums. :D

Sup, DarkPGR. Running out of arguments already? :D

[Chapa9dj]

@ the professional troll Chapa9dj

You CAN take screenshots in-game, hit the Print Screen key on your keyboard, or use the Snipping Tool... works for me!
Yeah, and then alt+tab and paste it to Paint then Save File As.
Hilarious

You CAN update your games while doing other things... start the download and Alt+TAB out of the game... and as an extra, said download isn't mandatory, the system doesn't force it down your throat.
Alt+Tabbing minimize the game but it still uses a lot of resources if i want to play another game. Ridiculous.

No need to verify integrity since the game files don't tend to get corrupted (on steam is a must, since you never know when an steam download or update will go wrong).
It usually happens, if you install a mod in a GFWL game and it screw your files, you have to re-download when in Steam it will only re-download the damaged file. Quite the difference, huh. ;)


As of the rest of your point, they are so stupid there's no point on replying, specially since you can simply click on "add a non-steam game" and get all that functionality LOL!
You still don't get Steamworks features. LOL

[DarkPGR]

You still don't get Steamworks features. LOL

you get all the features you mentioned, plus not getting steamworks-specific features is actually a plus! Not having a game infected with that is always a good thing!

[cr1515]

Yeah, and then alt+tab and paste it to Paint then Save File As.
Hilarious

UMMMM I was going to say that, I thought "hang on a minute, when you print screen doesn't it just copy to the cache, then you have to paste it to something right"

then I was like "I must be wrong about that, there's no way anyone would say that's a good system for taking screen shots"

So, in gfwl if you want to take a screen shot, you have to
1. hit print screen
2. go to windows
3. paste the image to paint or something.
4. save it.

PGR can you confirm that this is correct? If so are you saying that's a good alternative?

Well I would just use fraps

[DarkPGR]

UMMMM I was going to say that, I thought "hang on a minute, when you print screen doesn't it just copy to the cache, then you have to paste it to something right"

then I was like "I must be wrong about that, there's no way anyone would say that's a good system for taking screen shots"

So, in gfwl if you want to take a screen shot, you have to
1. hit print screen
2. go to windows
3. paste the image to paint or something.
4. save it.

PGR can you confirm that this is correct? If so are you saying that's a good alternative?

Well I would just use fraps

It's a good alternative, specially because it doesn't use any extra resources. It's worked like that for ages! (I still wonder what's the usefulness of screenshots in-game... I do understand they are important when working or offering support, but when gaming?)

[lordofterror]

It's a good alternative, specially because it doesn't use any extra resources. It's worked like that for ages! (I still wonder what's the usefulness of screenshots in-game... I don understand they are important when working or offering support, but when gaming?)
just like that we already have steam and steamworks whats the point in bundling crap like gfwl and wasting bandwidth on it

[cr1515]

It's a good alternative

No it's not

[Chapa9dj]

you get all the features you mentioned, plus not getting steamworks-specific features is actually a plus! Not having a game infected with that is always a good thing!

For me Steamwork is a plus..
So , based in this judgement
As of the rest of your point, they are so stupid there's no point on replying, specially since you can simply click on "add a non-steam game" and get all that functionality LOL!
You use every feature that Steam provides since you can't do it on GFWL but you also hate Steam.
Nice contradiction.

[{Yotsuba}]

I personally prefer GFWL over Steamworks (especially for pre-orders/newly released games) for one simple reason: in my region GFWL is far more reliable than Steamworks. With GFWL we know we can play the game. The same cannot be said for Steamworks when there's hidden IP blocks on installation/activation or for Steam in general when release dates are completely ignored.

[richard.eid]

I personally prefer GFWL over Steamworks (especially for pre-orders/newly released games) for one simple reason: in my region GFWL is far more reliable than Steamworks. With GFWL we know we can play the game. The same cannot be said for Steamworks when there's hidden IP blocks on installation/activation or for Steam in general when release dates are completely ignored.

You know that's up to the publisher. Stop spreading the FUD. Let me refresh your memory:

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=20852076&postcount=70

[{Yotsuba}]

The publishers didn't code the Steamworks DRM. They also didn't code the IP lock outs and as I've stated many a time, don't always know that Valve are using them. So you can keep blaming the publishers all you want, but as I have ASKED said publishers and been told that VALVE are responsible on more than one occasion now, I'll keep putting the blame right where it belongs. Thank you.

[YourOnlyFriend]

I'm very sure region lock outs are put by the publishers. It'd make sense they'd pass the buck as support usually doesn't know these things.

[DarkPGR]

Bulletstorm is a perfect example. Region-locked on steam and D2D, but available worldwide on GG and GFW Marketplace.

[richard.eid]

The publishers didn't code the Steamworks DRM. They also didn't code the IP lock outs and as I've stated many a time, don't always know that Valve are using them. So you can keep blaming the publishers all you want, but as I have ASKED said publishers and been told that VALVE are responsible on more than one occasion now, I'll keep putting the blame right where it belongs. Thank you.
Publishers choose which regions to market their game on DD services. You already know this. You know it well. It's just when you see an opportunity to spurt out baseless comments, you do. It's like you can't help yourself. If you'd like, I can go over it for you like I did in the other thread.

Bulletstorm is a perfect example. Region-locked on steam and D2D, but available worldwide on GG and GFW Marketplace.

World - 195 countries
GFWL - 35 countries

And as above, regional availability is determined by the publisher.

[DarkPGR]

the 35 most important countries (based on number of gamers at least).

Besides, anyone in the other 160 Countries can use GFWL without problems, by simply selecting one of the 35 supported ones as their country when signing up... you keep making a fool of yourself, that point is invalid.

And, why then is it available from other stores worldwide, but not from steam?

[richard.eid]

the 35 most important countries (based on number of gamers at least).

Besides, anyone in the other 160 Countries can use GFWL without problems, by simply selecting one of the 35 supported ones as their country when signing up... you keep making a fool of yourself, that point is invalid.

And, why then is it available from other stores worldwide, but not from steam?
Way to marginalize the rest of the world. And yeah, people can play GFWL games in other countries, but only if they knew beforehand that they'd have to select a location that isn't their own for their profile. If they didn't, they are out of luck and out of a game. If a game is sold to you in your country it's safe to assume everything is on the up and up and you won't have to go through some convoluted process to have access to it...unless you're using a GFWL game.

Sadly, you've run out of arguments here in this thread, too. Just like other threads you've posted in, once people start to inform you of the pitfalls of GFWL, which you've completely turned a blind eye to, you turn to the insults. Face it, you're on the Steam forums. You won't gain much support in your cause. And you definitely won't get very far by giving up any hope at a decent debate by insulting anyone who disagrees with you. The best you can hope for is a fate similar to the one you had on the GFWL forums.

Also, for the millionth time now, regional availability is determined by the publisher. If they don't want Valve to sell their game on Steam in certain countries, that's up to them. Valve can't just go ahead and sell it anyway. I've been stressing this point in most of my posts regarding this game yet you've somehow managed to completely miss all the times I said it.

[DarkPGR]

Way to marginalize the rest of the world. And yeah, people can play GFWL games in other countries, but only if they knew beforehand that they'd have to select a location that isn't their own for their profile. If they didn't, they are out of luck and out of a game. If a game is sold to you in your country it's safe to assume everything is on the up and up and you won't have to go through some convoluted process to have access to it...unless you're using a GFWL game.

People that are intelligent to read the terms of use of what they are buying will realize the box, as well as the account sign up process, clearly state which countries are LIVE-enabled. So if you are stupid enough to not read what you sign then it's your own fault and problem, not LIVE's.

If you think selecting a different country from a drop-down box a single time is a convoluted process, then you must hate steam as a whole, the amount of stuff you have to do for it to barely work is a lot more than a simple drop-down box!

[SunriseDriver]

The publishers didn't code the Steamworks DRM. They also didn't code the IP lock outs and as I've stated many a time, don't always know that Valve are using them. So you can keep blaming the publishers all you want, but as I have ASKED said publishers and been told that VALVE are responsible on more than one occasion now, I'll keep putting the blame right where it belongs. Thank you.
Don't argue with Steamzealots. They'll pray to Valve no matter what. They can't get with the fact that Valve can do smth wrong.

[jo291]

People that are intelligent to read the terms of use of what they are buying will realize the box, as well as the account sign up process, clearly state which countries are LIVE-enabled. So if you are stupid enough to not read what you sign then it's your own fault and problem, not LIVE's.

If you think selecting a different country from a drop-down box a single time is a convoluted process, then you must hate steam as a whole, the amount of stuff you have to do for it to barely work is a lot more than a simple drop-down box!

"Also, for the millionth time now, regional availability is determined by the publisher. If they don't want Valve to sell their game on Steam in certain countries, that's up to them. Valve can't just go ahead and sell it anyway. I've been stressing this point in most of my posts regarding this game yet you've somehow managed to completely miss all the times I said it."

Posting this again.

[Antichrist XVII]

Because Microsoft pays them to, that's why.

[VividNinjaScar]

Because Microsoft pays them to, that's why.

Baseless assumptions.

I can do it to.

Valve pays developers to use Steamworks.

[{Yotsuba}]

Publishers choose which regions to market their game on DD services.

While this is true, it's also true that Valve ignore this. And as you know, I've already provided plenty of examples of this. But if you choose to continually ignore these all to clear facts, then fine do so. But that give you no right to claim others are lying simply because you choose to ignore the facts given to you.

[richard.eid]

Which examples other than your secret conversations with some publishers do you have? Anything documented? Or are you just saying things because you think they'll go unchecked?

[{Yotsuba}]

Anything documented?

Use the search function please, I've posted them plenty enough.

[wazups 2x]

why? because hammer legion members and thieves don't like it? It's the only DRM that stops thieves from using the game before release, and completely stoops them from multiplayer afterwards (stuff no other drm does).

Yeah... where's your facts to back that up? :rolleyes:

If that's the case why do Xbox 360 games get pirated all the time before release? I'm sure Xbox Live uses the same security measures as GFWL, if not better since the Xbox is a closed platform.

[richard.eid]

Anything documented?

Use the search function please, I've posted them plenty enough.

Sorry, but I need more than "This person said this about that person". What I'm looking for is solid evidence that you aren't completely full of BS. So far, all signs point to you being full of it.

I e-mailed Gabe once and he said Randy Pitchford kidnapped his children.

See? Because I said it, you don't need any further proof than that to know it's true. It's true because it's a true story that happened.

Until you can prove that business doesn't work the way business works, you're lying.

[Sorimachi]

You know, whether the publishers are choosing to use restrictive features of Steam's DRM or not doesn't really matter. The question of this topic was why contiue to use GFWL. Yotsuba happened to give a good reason for why it's a preferred system in Japan. Many local publishers choose not to market their games in Japan but when they use GFWL or any other DRM, with the exclusion of Steamworks, there is never a question of whether the game will be installable, let alone playable.

The same is not true of Steamworks and this too, is a fact. It doesn't matter who is ultimately responsible, all that matters is that Steam provides the most restrictive DRM going to date. DRM that has the ability of preventing legitimate owners of a game from being able to play it. FYI MW2 is a great example of that. Two other examples of Steam's unreliability, that I can give off the top of my head, in Japan are RFG and M2.

Ultimately when asked to choose between Steamworks or GFWL, many gamers in Japan are going to choose GFWL as their preferred system. This is a simple truth that you are going to need to learn to live with.

[richard.eid]

While I can agree with you, it's still no excuse for anyone to come here and spread lies about any service, GFWL included. The persistence of Yotsuba to misinform the people reading his posts is deplorable. He knows what the truth is yet he thinks it's a beneficial to keep up the charade.

In the end, it doesn't matter. You're right. The availability of Steamworks games in Japan is touch-and-go and that's not optimal for Japanese gamers. Too bad. I can't remember why that would give anyone a reason to start spreading lies, though.

I pointed out his two-faced-ness in another thread:

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=20852076&postcount=70

He constantly flip-flops on his story and it's obvious he uses the lies to suit whichever story he's currently making up. He had no response when someone called him on it and decided to take spread his FUD around elsewhere.

Also, how have MW2 players been unable to play the game?

[wazups 2x]

Looks like GFWL is have some problems, hopefully it's fixed soon so people can play the game.

http://forums.gamesforwindows.com/t/16132.aspx

Edit: Oh hey, it's VividNinjaScar with cat as an avatar. I would have never thought that he would have the time to post in the GFWL forums with all of his GFWL supporting he does here.

[cunny_funt1011]

Microsoft has done more for consumers and developers over all. DirectX, XNA, programming documentation, and iconic franchises are way, way more definitive of PC gaming than a store with a chat client.


Oh yeah, they've done plenty like:

- Cancel Alan Wake PC
- Close down Ensemble Studios
- Close down FASA Studios (maker of the MechWarrior series)
- Destroy Rare Ltd.
- Make insulting comments towards pc gamers, such as "NO ONE PLAYS FPSES ON PC ANYMORE LULZ"

But by all means, keep on sucking M$'s cöck if it makes you feel any better. Don't let the cold, harsh truth stop you from being M$'s bítch.

From the looks of things, Microsoft is about to becoming heavily invested in PC gaming again.


Fable 3 is dogshít and a game for console tards. the new age of empires game also looks like dogshít. and the new flight game is gonna be dumbed down to mediocrity. so yeah, they're definitely making all the right strides in pc gaming.

[olimango]

Surprised to see there are people that support Games for Windows Live.

It's a ♥♥♥♥ service, and the majority of the gaming community thinks so. There's been articles from gaming sites all around the net criticizing the service and it's annoyances. Not to mention, my PC gamer friends are sick of it, and I've had some troublesome experiences with it as well.

Not as bad as UPlay though, I'll give it that.

[VividNinjaScar]

Looks like GFWL is have some problems, hopefully it's fixed soon so people can play the game.

http://forums.gamesforwindows.com/t/16132.aspx

Edit: Oh hey, it's VividNinjaScar with cat as an avatar. I would have never thought that he would have the time to post in the GFWL forums with all of his GFWL supporting he does here.

His name is Mario.

I'm still playing Bulletstorm, don't worry. Offline mode. Looks to be a problem with the actual update, should get fixed within the next few hours.

Oh yeah, they've done plenty like:

- Cancel Alan Wake PC
- Close down Ensemble Studios
- Close down FASA Studios (maker of the MechWarrior series)
- Destroy Rare Ltd.
- Make insulting comments towards pc gamers, such as "NO ONE PLAYS FPSES ON PC ANYMORE LULZ"

But by all means, keep on sucking M$'s cöck if it makes you feel any better. Don't let the cold, harsh truth stop you from being M$'s bítch.



-Oh well
-Recession
-Recession
-Never a PC company in the first place?
-One dude



Fable 3 is dogshít and a game for console tards. the new age of empires game also looks like dogshít. and the new flight game is gonna be dumbed down to mediocrity. so yeah, they're definitely making all the right strides in pc gaming.

Also seen as:


STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE

[olimango]

Also seen as:

STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE

Considering about 50% of your argument answers are "Oh well, lulz", I fail to see how you can use this against him.

[VividNinjaScar]

Considering about 50% of your argument answers are "Oh well, lulz", I fail to see how you can use this against him.

20% of my argument was. The other 80% was fine.

[olimango]

20% of my argument was. The other 80% was fine.

Regardless, you should stick to 100% intelligent arguments. Saying stuff like that just makes you look like everyone else.

[Alienware Gamer]

Why not its been proven 100% as the best way to stop pirate's on PC games which use ZDPP + SSA. There is not a single GFWL game which uses ZDPP + SSA which has been pirated & is playable online. Not 1 game in over 18 months. Steam DRM is weak & obviously some PC gamers love it as many are pirates and Steam helps them achieve this by not offering a strong enough protection so the pirates use the Steam release to create their dodgy version.

I would much rather have GFWL & big budget PC games than no decent PC games at all. Its not perfect but neither is Steam.

GFWL actually offers the PC gamer increased value for money as well as increasing the level of protection against theft.

Steam is great for Steam sales when games are really cheap but apart from that I am struggling to think of anything else it offers the consumer/publisher.............. no-one in their right mind would pay 25% more for the same game you can buy at retail unless you love giving Valve your money!!!!!!

[Lodan]

Another great game with GLWL crap T.T

Dam steam, you are helping microsoft when they want mess with you guys with own marketplace, do Microsoft sell steam games?

Stupid -.-

[sfade]

I'd have to agree, GFWL is generally disliked by most of my PC gaming friends. Steamworks would have been the far better option.

It's their choice, but using GFWL made this a lot less appealing for social coop gaming... and thus I passed on buying it. Maybe when it's in the bargain bin.

[lordofterror]

well well the so called perfect gfwl claimed here boy gfwl fanboys seems to have problems updating

[Link-To-This]

Oh look at that, Bulletstorm has been uploaded and cracked already and can be downloaded via torrent sites.

just like every other GFWL game or any other game with DRM.

Seriously why bother? GFWL causes so many people problems and it all gets cracked within the first day of release.

[Ryne S.]

GFWL sucks.

[cunny_funt1011]

-Oh well


Oh well? You call that a counter-argument? What are you, retârded?


-Recession

Newsflash: Those studios were closed down long before the recession came about.


-Never a PC company in the first place?


My point was that Microsoft destroys anything it touches. A once highly respected developer has been reduced to making nothing more than shovelware for a gimmick motion controller.


-One dude


A dude who happened to be a Microsoft spokesperson, and therefore represents the viewpoints of the company he represents.

You are the very definition of a fânboy. I bet Microsoft could râpe and murder your entire family, and you would still worship the hell out of them.

[Alienware Gamer]

Oh look at that, Bulletstorm has been uploaded and cracked already and can be downloaded via torrent sites.

just like every other GFWL game or any other game with DRM.

Seriously why bother? GFWL causes so many people problems and it all gets cracked within the first day of release. But they will not be able to save at all & play any MP so all they have is an extended SP only demo oh wait I get it they would never have bought it anyway would they..................... (but they took the time to crack/download it just in case they could steal it easily!!)

No GFWL game which uses SSA & ZDPP is playable online not a single one its the best DRM to date as many cannot even save unless they buy the game either. This can only help PC gamers globally as it means publishers are less reluctant to port games to PC.

[DarkPGR]

Oh look at that, Bulletstorm has been uploaded and cracked already and can be downloaded via torrent sites.

just like every other GFWL game or any other game with DRM.

Seriously why bother? GFWL causes so many people problems and it all gets cracked within the first day of release.

And look! Unlike steamworks games, it wasn't uploaded and cracked BEFORE release, they still had to wait until the 22 to even launch the game

And look! Unlike steamworks games, they still can't go online at all! No pirated servers either, so they are stuck with just the basic game at best!

[{Yotsuba}]

He constantly flip-flops on his story and it's obvious he uses the lies to suit whichever story he's currently making up. He had no response when someone called him on it and decided to take spread his FUD around elsewhere.

Gotta love how you now decide that detailing what happens with Steam is now lying simply because you refuse to accept it's happening in this region. Whatever, you obviously don't live here and thus are blind to it, good for you but that doesn't make it lying. I simply answered the OPs question, you're the one who decided to do your usual stalking of people who you don't agree with, so it's no surprise that I often decide to simply ignore you. Which is what I'll be doing again here too.

[devious742]

dont bother arguing on gfwl i recognize some of the members here from the gfwl forum, they will always defend the client no matter what others say
I was about to say the same thing:p

[VividNinjaScar]

Oh well? You call that a counter-argument? What are you, retârded?



Hurr durr, I is re Tall diD.



Newsflash: Those studios were closed down long before the recession came about.



Check your facts. The recession started in 2008. Those studios were closed around the begining of 2009. They weren't making money, and we in fact losing money. It is just buisiness.



My point was that Microsoft destroys anything it touches. A once highly respected developer has been reduced to making nothing more than shovelware for a gimmick motion controller.



If that was your point, try not to include it without specifically saying that. You were trying to argue against them being supportive of PC gaming. *launches DX11 game*



A dude who happened to be a Microsoft spokesperson, and therefore represents the viewpoints of the company he represents.



No, he is a dude who happened to be an XBOX spokesman. He has nothing to do with the Windows side of things, and in fact, is a competitor to the Windows side. His views are the exact opposite of what was going on in the company.



You are the very definition of a fânboy. I bet Microsoft could râpe and murder your entire family, and you would still worship the hell out of them.

I am a fanboy of Microsoft, yes. No doubt. However, ♥♥♥♥♥♥ and murdering my entire family would go against the humanitarian efforts that Microsoft does, and that I am a fan of. So no, I probably wouldn't like them after that.

[richard.eid]

He constantly flip-flops on his story and it's obvious he uses the lies to suit whichever story he's currently making up. He had no response when someone called him on it and decided to take spread his FUD around elsewhere.

Gotta love how you now decide that detailing what happens with Steam is now lying simply because you refuse to accept it's happening in this region. Whatever, you obviously don't live here and thus are blind to it, good for you but that doesn't make it lying. I simply answered the OPs question, you're the one who decided to do your usual stalking of people who you don't agree with, so it's no surprise that I often decide to simply ignore you. Which is what I'll be doing again here too.

So no proof then to backup your claims? Of course not.

[DarkPGR]

You are the very definition of a fânboy. I bet Microsoft could râpe and murder your entire family, and you would still worship the hell out of them.

says one of the biggest steam hammer legion member... some of the fools like you here would rather pay $60 and get nothng extra just to buy the game from steam instead of shopping around and getting a better deal... that's akin to be râped and you lot seem to like it.

[kreed_uk]

Look some people like GFWL some people prefer Steam. Wow, variety. I prefer GFWL by the way... don't kill me.

[Chapa9dj]

well well the so called perfect gfwl claimed here boy gfwl Hammer Legion Members seems to have problems updating
I'm not sure, but i think it's the 3rd time GFWL ♥♥♥♥ things up real bad with an update..
Gotta love all the shills around here. ''Don't worry. GFWL will fix it soon herp derp''.

I don't even know why they bother coming to this forum if they didn't even purchase the game on Steam. :rolleyes:
Oh look at that, Bulletstorm has been uploaded and cracked already and can be downloaded via torrent sites.

just like every other GFWL game or any other game with DRM.

Seriously why bother? GFWL causes so many people problems and it all gets cracked within the first day of release.

Laughed hard.
So much for anti-piracy protection. So much for trying to be better than Steam.

What a comedy. :D

[DarkPGR]

I'm not sure, but i think it's the 3rd time GFWL ♥♥♥♥ things up real bad with an update..
Gotta love all the shills around here. ''Don't worry. GFWL will fix it soon herp derp''.

I don't even know why they bother coming to this forum if they didn't even purchase the game on Steam. :rolleyes:


Laughed hard.
So much for anti-piracy protection. So much for trying to be better than Steam.

What a comedy. :D

And look! Unlike steamworks games, it wasn't uploaded and cracked BEFORE release, they still had to wait until the 22 to even launch the game

And look! Unlike steamworks games, they still can't go online at all! No pirated servers either, so they are stuck with just the basic game at best!

[Chapa9dj]

And look! Unlike steamworks games, it wasn't uploaded and cracked BEFORE release, they still had to wait until the 22 to even launch the game
LOL no. The game it's been out for like 3 days now and people claim to be fully playable on the forums..
I love how all you claim GFWL to be a perfect anti-piracy system.
Your own lies are falling apart.
Get over it and deal with it!!


And look! Unlike steamworks games, they still can't go online at all! No pirated servers either, so they are stuck with just the basic game at best!

You can't play online with a pirated Steamwork title neither, so your argument is invalid.

In before Alter IW. People with old pirated GFWL games can still play online and along with those that own a legit copy.
At least in MW2 we didn't get mixed with pirates.

[VividNinjaScar]

LOL no. The game it's been out for like 3 days now and people claim to be fully playable on the forums..
I love how all you claim GFWL to be a perfect anti-piracy system.
Your own lies are falling apart.
Get over it and deal with it!!



The ISO was out, but no one could play it yet. Piracy protection is useless, in my opinion, aside from keeping them offline.



You can't play online with a pirated Steamwork neither, so your argument is invalid.

Modern Warfare 2 says hello. As does Black Ops. And TF2. And Conter-strike.

[DarkPGR]

The ISO was available, but unplayable thanks to ZDPP (GFWL), thieves had to wait until today to play. And even then, they can't go online at all.


You can't play online with a pirated Steamwork title neither, so your argument is invalid.


Modern Warfare 2 says hello. As does Black Ops. And TF2. And Conter-strike.

As does every single steamworks title, since all it takes is a non-VAC secured server and thieves can play online. Most of my friends do that, so I'm completely sure about that.

[Chapa9dj]

The ISO was out, but no one could play it yet. Piracy protection is useless, in my opinion, aside from keeping them offline.
Oh boy, too bad i'm not allowed to post links but some of my friends are playing it right now.

Modern Warfare 2 says hello. As does Black Ops. And TF2. And Conter-strike.
In before Alter IW. People with old pirated GFWL games can still play online and along with those that own a legit copy.
At least in MW2 we didn't get mixed with pirates.
As for Black Ops, you can't play it online if you don't own a legit copy.
TF2 and CS, have fun playing in unprotected servers. ;)

[Chapa9dj]

As does every single steamworks title, since all it takes is a non-VAC secured server and thieves can play online. Most of my friends do that, so I'm completely sure about that.
You get what you give. You are forced to play on unprotected servers.

With GFWL there is no difference owning it legit or not because there isn't any Anti-Cheat and you can still play online. Otherwise, care to explain the rampant cheating on GTA IV or RFG?

[DarkPGR]

Oh boy, too bad i'm not allowed to post links but some of my friends are playing it right now.

As do every single person that owns a legit copy, since ZDPP is no longer in effect (it only works if the game has not officially launched yet).

Starting today, everyone can play Bulletstorm. And if they actually bought the game, they can play online too.

Since you need an unused CD Key to play multiplayer on GFWL, thieves can't play Bulletstorm online at all, it's that simple! (simple, but still steamworks fails at protecting it).

PS: I know you are trying very hard (and failing) to troll here, but shall I remind you this forum is about Bulletstorm?

[Chapa9dj]

As do every single person that owns a legit copy, since ZDPP is no longer in effect (it only works if the game has not officially launched yet).

Starting today, everyone can play Bulletstorm. And if they actually bought the game, they can play online too.

Yeah, and they been playing for days now. You ZDPP is a joke. :D

PS: I know you are trying very hard (and failing) to troll here, but shall I remind you this forum is about Bulletstorm?
Nice editing. Thought it would go unnoticed, eh? ;)
i'm not trolling here. If i was, well this is a reply from troll to troll.
Let me remind you, this is the Steam user's Forum, why don't you crawl back to where you belong (GFWL Forums). Ouch, you're still banned. :p

I bet you don't even own this game on Steam, so what are you doing here?. Preaching about how awesome GFWL is, as usual. You and your weakling friend.

[DarkPGR]

Yeah, and they been playing for days now. You ZDPP is a joke. :D

Just checked. Bulletstorm shows up exactly the same on the LIVE Profile regardless of which version you're playing. They have separate Achievements lists though (if you own both, you get the same game twice on your Gamercard).

Which means, to a troll like you, someone playing the Xbox 360 version of the game online would look like they have played the PC version. Take a look at my Gamercard, I launched the PC game and all it says is "Bulletstorm", no indication of it being the PC version at all.

So unless you have some other proof that thieves have been playing the game online, GFWL is still the only one capable of stopping those dbags from enjoying the game to it's fullest.

[Timmeh317]

Steamworks does the same thing, no need to put DRM into DRM.

Yo Dawg, we heard you like DRM so we put DRM in yo DRM so you can get frustrated while you get frustrated.

[Chapa9dj]

So unless you have some other proof that thieves have been playing the game online.
I have nothing to prove to you.
Move along, troll.

[tunguska47]

soon or later all games well be cracked so it doesnt matter there is no need for GFWL

all GFWL titles are dead online

[richard.eid]

soon or later all games well be cracked so it doesnt matter there is no need for GFWL
The same could be said about Steam, SecuROM, TAGES, Starforce, etc. Any reason in particular that you think only GFWL suffers from this problem?

[cunny_funt1011]

Hurr durr, I is re Tall diD.

So I'm right, you are retârded. Your parents must be so ashamed to have given birth to such a retârd.


Check your facts. The recession started in 2008. Those studios were closed around the begining of 2009. They weren't making money, and we in fact losing money. It is just buisiness.

Wrong. FASA Studios was officially shut down on September 12, 2007, long before the recession. CHECK YOUR FACTS. Ensemble may have been closed down in 2009, but the company hadn't been producing any PC games for the past 2 years before its closure. The last PC game it released was the Asian Dynasties expansion pack for Age of Empires, and that was released in 2007. For the next two years up until its closure it was doing nothing except working on Halo Wars, A CONSOLE EXCLUSIVE GAME. Proof right there that Microsoft sacrifices its PC development for friggin console development.


If that was your point, try not to include it without specifically saying that. You were trying to argue against them being supportive of PC gaming. *launches DX11 game*

Where in my original post did I ever say I was only arguing against them being supportive of PC gaming? No where in my post did I say that. LEARN TO READ. I was arguing against their shîtty business practices and poor track record as a whole, which is why I mentioned Rare.


No, he is a dude who happened to be an XBOX spokesman. He has nothing to do with the Windows side of things, and in fact, is a competitor to the Windows side. His views are the exact opposite of what was going on in the company.

I'm going to let you in on a little secret: Both Xbox and Windows are owned by Microsoft. Yes, hard to believe I know. Even though they may be two separate divisions, they are NOT independent and are still part of the same parent company and are thus subject to commonly shared aims and objectives. So even though that dude may have been working in the Xbox division, his words still reflect commonly held opinions and beliefs shared by the rest of the company. And your assumption that the two divisions are competing with one another is absolutely laughable, and shows you have no inkling of how business works. Businesses do not compete with themselves dummy, doing so would only result in lower profit margins. Microsoft would never do this, as all they care about is the bottom line. So if what you say is true and that this dude's views are the exact opposite of what was going on in the company, then one of two things would have happened, he would either have been disciplined and/or fired for going against the company line, neither of which has happened so far.


I am a Hammer Legion Member of Microsoft, yes. No doubt. However, ♥♥♥♥♥♥ and murdering my entire family would go against the humanitarian efforts that Microsoft does, and that I am a fan of. So no, I probably wouldn't like them after that.

Humanitarian efforts? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

NEWSFLASH IDIOT: Microsoft is not a charity, IT IS A BUSINESS. AND THE WHOLE POINT OF A BUSINESS, THE WHOLE REASON FOR ITS EXISTENCE, IS TO MAKE MONEY. MONEY AT ANY COST. You are far too bloody naive for your own good.

says one of the biggest steam hammer legion member... some of the fools like you here would rather pay $60 and get nothng extra just to buy the game from steam instead of shopping around and getting a better deal... that's akin to be râped and you lot seem to like it.

Where in my post was I defending Steam? I wasn't. Steam isn't perfect either, it has its own problems which I won't go into, but they pale in comparison to the sheer frustration and issues presented by GFWL. Oh and FYI, I never pay 60 bucks for a game. I always wait for the steam sales for them to go down in price before buying them. And that is where Steam will always be superior to GFWL: Steam sales. Microsoft will never have anything even remotely similar to regular Steam sales. Why? Because all they care about is ripping off as much money as possible from dumbâss consumers like yourself who are too stupid to know any better.

[DarkPGR]

I have nothing to prove to you.
Move along, troll.

sounds like you got no proof, huh?

I guess you hadn't even realized Bulletstorm can appear on your gamertag if you play the Xbox 360 version, and is otherwise indistinguishable from playing the PC version.

[Chapa9dj]

sounds like you got no proof, huh?

I guess you hadn't even realized Bulletstorm can appear on your gamertag if you play the Xbox 360 version, and is otherwise indistinguishable from playing the PC version.

Like i've already said, i have nothing to prove to you.
I haven't seen anyone's gamertag but screenshots of some of my friends playing it. I won't go into further details.
Give it up, ZDPP is a lie.

[ruiner5000]

Why do Unreal Tournament 3 Black Edition on Steam, and then pull this? I shouldn't have eaten those free burgers at E3.

[Who_Ate_Mah_Pah]

Jesus there was already a thread similar to this.

Microsoft doesnt want GWFL to die but at the same time doesnt support it and its ♥♥♥♥ty because of it.

Its like if you had an old car that needs to be repaired but they're too damn lazy to do it so they tell you a lie that you have to use it anyway until you buy or use a newer car but you dont have the money to buy a new one.

If you dont like GFWL dont use it and dont buy the game AND most importantly stop posting this ♥♥♥♥ on steam no one cares.

[GrimCW]

wow... lotsa stupid in here..

Steamworks isn't the DRM folks, its the achievements and cloud.

and GFWL games have been cracked VERY fast and playable online. Halo 2, GoW, and Fallout 3 have all been noted as hitting torrents fast and hard with cracks.
read the news sometime.
Steam's DRM is no exception, but has been noticed as less pirated for its convenience in setup rather than nuisance (which despite i'm not opposed to GFWL, GFWL is a pain to get going and keep going, especially its handling of save games)


I guess you hadn't even realized Bulletstorm can appear on your gamertag if you play the Xbox 360 version, and is otherwise indistinguishable from playing the PC version.


wow.. just wow... thats your best reasoning? "it works with my Xbox profile too!!!".... yay! every nerdy guy i know will envy me for having more chievos than they have!! durrr hurrr hurrr....

achievements can bite me.
that point doesn't even make sense in any other regard.

[Firespray]

This thread is so incredibly terrible. However, I will like to give my two cents on GFWL. Lets see...Dawn of War 2 had it and dropped it for steamworks, why? Do you know how many connection problems I had in DoW2 because of GFWL? Set NAT connection to open, doesn't help, me and friends can't play because of this early released and unreliable service. I expect to play with friends if the game has a multiplayer option, why should GFWL hinder me from this? Oh no, its not just me that has the same problem, tons of my friends who tried to play DoW2 keep getting connection problems, so why include a service that is near useless to have anyway? You can give the "well its still really early" excuse all you want, but for now, it should not even be used. Early on, even Steam was better than this. Besides, we all know MS just cares about profits and wants to tend to the Xbox gamers more. Besides, when GFWL started they expected us to pay for it. Well, thats all I got to say about GFWL.
EDIT: To be honest, when I first encountered GFWL I thought it was pretty neat, nothing game breaking and just a little service I can use to talk some of my friends on consoles, but when it becomes to the point that I can't play the game properly, I want it gone. Had me thinking it was pretty good at first, then it proved itself to be an unreliable.

[Razoride]

dont bother arguing on gfwl i recognize some of the members here from the gfwl forum, they will always defend the client no matter what others say

Yep, this thread smells of shill.

[lordofterror]

Yep, this thread smells of shill.
its not over yet watch as he and other Hammer Legion Members will come back with a lame comment that the steam users on the steam forums are just bashing the all awesome perfect gfwl client

[VividNinjaScar]

So I'm right, you are retârded. Your parents must be so ashamed to have given birth to such a retârd.



If I am considered ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, I can't even begin to fathom what you would be considered. Brain dead, probably.

Oh great, now I'm like you. Resorting to insults.



Wrong. FASA Studios was officially shut down on September 12, 2007, long before the recession. CHECK YOUR FACTS. Ensemble may have been closed down in 2009, but the company hadn't been producing any PC games for the past 2 years before its closure. The last PC game it released was the Asian Dynasties expansion pack for Age of Empires, and that was released in 2007. For the next two years up until its closure it was doing nothing except working on Halo Wars, A CONSOLE EXCLUSIVE GAME. Proof right there that Microsoft sacrifices its PC development for friggin console development.



I concede FASA. My mistake, I get it mixed up with ACES a lot, which was also shut down in 2009 around the same time Ensemble was. It doesn't take away from the point. The studios were losing money. FASA had lackluster sales from Shadowrun, and Ensemble had trouble delivering on all the projects they were working on. It had nothing to do with hating the PC, that is supported by the fact that both FASA and Ensemble worked on console games before their closure.



Where in my original post did I ever say I was only arguing against them being supportive of PC gaming? No where in my post did I say that. LEARN TO READ. I was arguing against their shîtty business practices and poor track record as a whole, which is why I mentioned Rare.



You were replying to MY post in which I had stated that Microsoft has done a lot for developers and consumers alike, which was a reply of another post that said Valve has done more. I proceeded to list a few of the things they have done to help. Maybe you should read back more than one post.



I'm going to let you in on a little secret: Both Xbox and Windows are owned by Microsoft. Yes, hard to believe I know. Even though may be two separate divisions, they are NOT independent and are still part of the same parent company and are thus subject to commonly shared aims and objectives. So even though that dude may have been working in the Xbox division, his words still reflect commonly held opinions and beliefs shared by the rest of the company. And your assumption that the two divisions are competing with one another is absolutely laughable, and shows you have no inkling of how business works. Businesses do not compete with themselves dummy, doing so would only result in lower profit margins. Microsoft would never do this, as all they care about is the bottom line. So if what you say is true and that this dude's views are the exact opposite of what was going on in the company, then one of two things would have happened, he would either have been disciplined and/or fired for going against the company line, neither of which has happened so far.



No way, really? Microsoft owns both Windows AND Xbox???

I'll let YOU in on a little secret. Microsoft isn't ran like your typical business. Anyone who has worked for them will tell you how every department is competeing against each other. The Xbox team is competeing with the Windows LIVE team, and that is just the way it is.

Think of it like fast food chains, I'm assuming you eat out a lot. One Burger King, owned by one indivisual, competes with another Burger King, owned by a different indivisual, down the street. In this case, the owners are the department heads for Microsoft. Put that between a bun and chew on it.



Humanitarian efforts? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

NEWSFLASH IDIOT: Microsoft is not a charity, IT IS A BUSINESS. AND THE WHOLE POINT OF A BUSINESS, THE WHOLE REASON FOR ITS EXISTENCE, IS TO MAKE MONEY. MONEY AT ANY COST. You are far too bloody naive for your own good.



More insults. You must be really mad.

Anyway, I am aware that they are a business. I know they are trying to make money. The thing is, they willingly GIVE some of that money away for scientific research and humanitarian aid. You can claim it is just for a tax writeoff, but if they wanted money they would be better off not giving any of it away at all. Oh well, you can continue thinking that corporations can do good things and calling me naive.

Better luck next time.

[Zealto]

And look! Unlike steamworks games, it wasn't uploaded and cracked BEFORE release, they still had to wait until the 22 to even launch the game

And look! Unlike steamworks games, they still can't go online at all! No pirated servers either, so they are stuck with just the basic game at best!

It isn't GFWL that makes them unable to play online. It is matchmaking.

And look! Countless people avoid buying the game because the game has matchmaking and GFWL! Oh well, it must be worth it cause people can't pirate the 4 hour campaign a day early.

[Scared]

Publishers choose which regions to market their game on DD services.

While this is true, it's also true that Valve ignore this.

So Valve are ignoring contracts that they have with developers/publishers and not selling games in regions they should and the publishers are just lying back and saying "oh well"? I think not.

Just because someone says "It's not our fault" doesn't mean it really isn't. How many times do people claim to be innocent before the 'true' facts come out and then they admit guilt?

[Sorimachi]

So Valve are ignoring contracts that they have with developers/publishers and not selling games in regions they should and the publishers are just lying back and saying "oh well"? I think not.

I think you'll find that it's more a case of publishers not doing anything until it's brought to their attention. I've certainly seen a fair few Japanese gamers make the same comments and for those comments to be echoed back by publishers, with the resulting changes happening within a few business days. I could list both THQ and Square as companies that have done just this for games sold on Steam in Japan. It's just 2K who are dragging their heels not doing anything. Even so, I agree with Yotsuba that it is not right for Valve to continue selling preorders to a game which should have been released 6 months ago. Valve should really remove it from sale until they have a definite release date.

[cunny_funt1011]

If I am considered ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, I can't even begin to fathom what you would be considered. Brain dead, probably.

Oh great, now I'm like you. Resorting to insults.


You were the one typing like a retârd, so don't you dare get all sanctimonious with me. I was simply making an observation. If you don't want others calling you a retârd, then don't act like one. It's as simple as that.


I concede FASA. My mistake, I get it mixed up with ACES a lot, which was also shut down in 2009 around the same time Ensemble was. It doesn't take away from the point. The studios were losing money. FASA had lackluster sales from Shadowrun, and Ensemble had trouble delivering on all the projects they were working on. It had nothing to do with hating the PC, that is supported by the fact that both FASA and Ensemble worked on console games before their closure.


Even if the studios were losing money, there were other options Microsoft could have chosen instead of shutting them down. Microsoft could've done some restructuring, let go of a few employees perhaps, not go to the extreme lengths of closing them down completely.


You were replying to MY post in which I had stated that Microsoft has done a lot for developers and consumers alike, which was a reply of another post that said Valve has done more. I proceeded to list a few of the things they have done to help. Maybe you should read back more than one post.

This does NOTHING to refute my statement that NOWHERE in my post did I mention that I was arguing against their support of PC gaming. Yes, I know in your previous posts you were discussing the good things Microsoft had done for PC gaming, but like I said IN MY POST, I was discussing their shîtty business practices overall. Once again you fail at reading.


Microsoft isn't ran like your typical business. Anyone who has worked for them will tell you how every department is competeing against each other. The Xbox team is competeing with the Windows LIVE team, and that is just the way it is.


Got a source for this? Or else I'm just going to have to assume you're pulling crap from your ♥♥♥. I'm being serious, if you provide me with an article that is backed up with reputable sources, I will happily concede you are right in this matter.


More insults. You must be really mad.

Anyway, I am aware that they are a business. I know they are trying to make money. The thing is, they willingly GIVE some of that money away for scientific research and humanitarian aid. You can claim it is just for a tax writeoff, but if they wanted money they would be better off not giving any of it away at all. Oh well, you can continue thinking that corporations can do good things and calling me naive.

Better luck next time.

Microsoft are only motivated to give away money when they feel it will boost their popularity. They do not do so out of any sense of "humanitarian" generosity.

By the way, you still haven't given me a plausible reason for the Alan Wake PC cancellation. And don't say "Oh well", unless you want to be called a retârd again.

[DeGroot Keeper]

I remember they announced a cooperation of Steam and Unreal Engine 3. By adding Steamworks to the UDK. They said that all future UE3 games will use Steamworks. I wonder what went wrong.

[TimM]

eh, no? steamworks games are cracked and playable before release most of the time, and can be played online on non-VAC protected servers... so no, steamworks doesn't do any of that.

Dead Rising 2 wasn't cracked until after release (which means, thieves couldn't crack ZDPP), and months later they can't play online at all!

Dead Rising 2 people were palying weeks before release. GFWL live is not more protective than Steam.

[Bozebo]

Patching through steam is the most buggy and slow experience possible... The downloads "Suspend" themselves, the speeds are way too unstable, some games end up corrupted and you're forced to completely remove and reinstall them (happened to me many times with different games on steam), it FORCES the patch down your throat, whether you like it or not (slow connection? too bad, you can't play then).
"The downloads "Suspend" themselves"
Yeah I hate that, all it takes is valve to fix it though. Why the hell do downloads pause when you play a single player game? It's utterly insane and idiotic.

"the speeds are way too unstable"
It depends on your area, you can change which content server it uses for your downloads too by the way. Personally, I usually get over 10Mbps. Switch to a less used server and check that your router isn't being killed by too much bandwidth from the steam servers (causing lower bandwidth in the end because it can't deal with all the incomming packets and has to drop massive chunks at once - nearly every shop-bought or isp provided router will do this).

"it FORCES the patch down your throat"
Completely untrue..... "Do not automatically update this game". Also GFWL does the same thing and forces about 300 trillion relaunches of the game as you iterate through every patch (did that for bioshock 2 to me) whereas steam will apply all the up-to-date patches at once. Also, if a steam game gets corrupted you can just verify the contents and steam will repair the corrupted files. I have 36 steam games and the only one that has corrupted itself in the past is cs source.

[TetraNitro]

Has anyone managed to play BulletStorm with an offline profile, or without specifically logging on to GFWL? Even when I make a new offline profile, and even after I've registered my serial online with GFWL, I can't play the game offline.

Really hoping to find an answer to this...

[Lawliet89]

Has anyone managed to play BulletStorm with an offline profile, or without specifically logging on to GFWL? Even when I make a new offline profile, and even after I've registered my serial online with GFWL, I can't play the game offline.

Really hoping to find an answer to this...

This game is SSA as in it is tied to your GFWL account. My guess is that since it is tied to your GFWL account, you can't play it with an offline profile.

[TetraNitro]

This game is SSA as in it is tied to your GFWL account. My guess is that since it is tied to your GFWL account, you can't play it with an offline profile.

So how can you play the game without being online? People can fly and Epic have both stated that there is no persistent internet connection required. Did they just lie?

[Lawliet89]

So how can you play the game without being online? People can fly and Epic have both stated that there is no persistent internet connection required. Did they just lie?

Try signing in with your "usual" GFWL account and pull the plug on your connection. It should still work though GFWL will say you aren't connected.

[VividNinjaScar]

Has anyone managed to play BulletStorm with an offline profile, or without specifically logging on to GFWL? Even when I make a new offline profile, and even after I've registered my serial online with GFWL, I can't play the game offline.

Really hoping to find an answer to this...

I played the first two acts offline. Then I played the next one and two hours of multiplayer online. You don't need a connection at all.

You were the one typing like a retârd, so don't you dare get all sanctimonious with me. I was simply making an observation. If you don't want others calling you a retârd, then don't act like one. It's as simple as that.



I guess you must get called a 'retârd' a lot.



Even if the studios were losing money, there were other options Microsoft could have chosen instead of shutting them down. Microsoft could've done some restructuring, let go of a few employees perhaps, not go to the extreme lengths of closing them down completely.



Doesn't matter. They did what they thought was the best choice. As you said, THEY ARE A BUSINESS.



This does NOTHING to refute my statement that NOWHERE in my post did I mention that I was arguing against their support of PC gaming. Yes, I know in your previous posts you were discussing the good things Microsoft had done for PC gaming, but like I said IN MY POST, I was discussing their shîtty business practices overall. Once again you fail at reading.



You just don't get it. You responded to ME talking about Microsoft and their PC obligations. You went on a rant that made it seem like you think they haven't done ♥♥♥♥. I don't care about your original posts when you are replaying to me.



Got a source for this? Or else I'm just going to have to assume you're pulling crap from your ♥♥♥. I'm being serious, if you provide me with an article that is backed up with reputable sources, I will happily concede you are right in this matter.



I shouldn't have to do all your work for you. Ex-employees have stated that the company compets with itself internally. I don't have the time to look it up for you, especially when you only form or arguing is insults.



Microsoft are only motivated to give away money when they feel it will boost their popularity. They do not do so out of any sense of "humanitarian" generosity.



Duh, Microsoft is a coroporation and doesn't have feelings. The people who run it do.



By the way, you still haven't given me a plausible reason for the Alan Wake PC cancellation. And don't say "Oh well", unless you want to be called a retârd again.

Don't have one. ♥♥♥♥♥♥.

[TetraNitro]

I played the first two acts offline. Then I played the next one and two hours of multiplayer online. You don't need a connection at all.

That's excellent news! Could you please tell me how you did it? I can't even access the title screen of the game without putting in a login and password and verifying a connection to GFWL, so I don't know how to start playing offline. Any help would be much appreciated.

[Vadim]

It's always nice to watch how people start holywars for nothing. Epic Games focus on xbox 360 development, exactly their franchize gears of war is carrying this console along with halo series. And you want them to suddenly start focusing on PC steam platform, which will bring them less money?

[Wasdie]

I'm not having any problems with GFWL. I actually like being able to compete against my buddies who bought this game on the 360.

[VividNinjaScar]

That's excellent news! Could you please tell me how you did it? I can't even access the title screen of the game without putting in a login and password and verifying a connection to GFWL, so I don't know how to start playing offline. Any help would be much appreciated.

Since you can't, I'm assuming that you haven't had previous GFWL games.

Download the GFWL client:
http://www.gamesforwindows.com/en-US/Download/

If you don't have an account, make one and download Tinker:
http://www.gamesforwindows.com/en-US/Games/Tinker/

If you want to use an offline profile, make one now and set it to log in automatically. If you want to use the same profile you downloaded Tinker with, just set that one to log in automatically as well. If you don't enter a key or choose not to download the update it will log you into offline mode, but on the same profile.

Now launch Bulletstorm and you should be logged into whatever profile you set to log in with.

[TetraNitro]

Since you can't, I'm assuming that you haven't had previous GFWL games.

Download the GFWL client:
http://www.gamesforwindows.com/en-US/Download/

If you don't have an account, make one and download Tinker:
http://www.gamesforwindows.com/en-US/Games/Tinker/

If you want to use an offline profile, make one now and set it to log in automatically. If you want to use the same profile you downloaded Tinker with, just set that one to log in automatically as well. If you don't enter a key or choose not to download the update it will log you into offline mode, but on the same profile.

Now launch Bulletstorm and you should be logged into whatever profile you set to log in with.

I have had previous GFWL games. In fact, the first thing I tried to do was use my offline profile from Dawn of War II to play BulletStorm. Immediately upon selecting it, it refused to let me use it because it was an offline profile, which I guess was because I needed to register the serial key first.

The client is actually force-installed with the game if you buy it on Steam. I didn't even have a choice in the matter, it just put it on my computer. Afterward, I basically HAD to make an online profile, because BulletStorm won't let me access the main menu without one. The first screen says 'Press Space', then it tells me to log in to GFWL. If I choose an offline profile, it boots me back to the 'Press Space' screen.

I have updated GFWL, both through the client, once again when I accessed BulletStorm online through the game, and then once again this morning through Windows Update. I'm pretty sure I have the latest version of the client installed, but I still can't play the game, or even get to the title screen, without having to log in first.

[VividNinjaScar]

Then play with your online profile. I just tried it, and offline won't work it seems. You can still play in offline mode, as I did earlier, but actual offline PROFILES won't work.

[TetraNitro]

Then play with your online profile. I just tried it, and offline won't work it seems. You can still play in offline mode, as I did earlier, but actual offline PROFILES won't work.

I see - So you're saying that I need to use the same profile that I can get online with, but just somehow set that profile to open in a offline mode instead of an ONline mode. That makes sense, considering the game was registered to my online profile (as it had to, in order to activate and verify the key).

Sorry to keep asking questions, but how do I set my online profile to play in offline mode? Is there a setting or something I can flip?

Barring that, is there some way to always log in to GFWL with the 'appear offline' option turned on? Seems pretty silly that you have to log in online to set yourself to appear offline.

[analyst88]

It's always nice to watch how people start holywars for nothing. Epic Games focus on xbox 360 development, exactly their franchize gears of war is carrying this console along with halo series. And you want them to suddenly start focusing on PC steam platform, which will bring them less money?

This, and totally this. Gears of War 1 was what made the XboX360 a hit. It was out nearly a year before Halo 3, the game which consolidated Microsoft's console domination (as of now the PS3 hasn't got a single exclusive that has sold nearly as many copies as the Gears of War or Halo franchises..

I once read an interview that EPIC decided to focus almost entirely on console game development mainly because there was more money to be found in that particular market segment compared to the PC segment. The fact that Gears of War 1 was ported to the PC by an external company (People Can Fly) and that Gears of War 2 (which is one of the best games I've ever played; it's one of those few games that really make you feel like you are playing a blockbuster title) should be evidence enough that EPIC does, in fact, not really care about PC gaming anymore.

[Amun]

It's always nice to watch how people start holywars for nothing. Epic Games focus on xbox 360 development, exactly their franchize gears of war is carrying this console along with halo series. And you want them to suddenly start focusing on PC steam platform, which will bring them less money?

I don't care where their focus is, I just want PC versions of games that aren't hobbled for no reason.

[mcilrain]

Let me start off by saying that I am probably in the vast minority on this one, but as both a PC gamer and Xbox 360 user (calling myself an Xbox 360 gamer just feels dirty...) I enjoy GFWL's features (friends, shared achievements, etc) because they are more-or-less synced with the Xbox.

That being said, I prefer Steam, especially when it comes to games I intend on playing for a long time. I've actually encountered more difficulty with Steam than I have with GFWL, but that's probably due to me using Steam a lot more and with greater intensity.

The way I see things is: Other < Nothing < GFWL < Steam.

I feel bad supporting a consoley and Microsoft product in this context... I'm going to go play SC2, Minecraft and ArmA2 simultaneously to wash away the feelings of unclean.

[cunny_funt1011]

VividNinja, I'm not going to bother replying to all your quotes (since all of them are pretty much dogshît anyway). Instead, all I'm going to do is give you some advice.

Please do us all a favour, and kindly aerate your skull with a shotgun. That is all. (Actually you'll be doing the world a favour.)

[VividNinjaScar]

I see - So you're saying that I need to use the same profile that I can get online with, but just somehow set that profile to open in a offline mode instead of an ONline mode. That makes sense, considering the game was registered to my online profile (as it had to, in order to activate and verify the key).

Sorry to keep asking questions, but how do I set my online profile to play in offline mode? Is there a setting or something I can flip?

Barring that, is there some way to always log in to GFWL with the 'appear offline' option turned on? Seems pretty silly that you have to log in online to set yourself to appear offline.

I was reading on the Epic forums, and it turns out that is indeed the case. Offline profiles won't work in Bulletstorm.

I don't think there is a way to get it to sign in offline by default. One way you could accomplish this is block a required port, or block the program in the Windows Firewall. It will log you in offline automatically if you don't have a connection.

VividNinja, I'm not going to bother replying to all your quotes (since all of them are pretty much dogshît anyway). Instead, all I'm going to do is give you some advice.

Please do us all a favour, and kindly aerate your skull with a shotgun. That is all. (Actually you'll be doing the world a favour.)

You really just love showing your lack of class, don't you?

[TetraNitro]

I was reading on the Epic forums, and it turns out that is indeed the case. Offline profiles won't work in Bulletstorm.

I don't think there is a way to get it to sign in offline by default. One way you could accomplish this is block a required port, or block the program in the Windows Firewall. It will log you in offline automatically if you don't have a connection.

The firewall idea is a good one. Thanks for that! I'm going to give that a try whenever I next can, and see how it works out.

[cunny_funt1011]

You really just love showing your lack of class, don't you?

Just trying to help you out is all. Seriously, a dumb fúck degenerate like yourself doesn't deserve to go on living. A drooling neanderthal would exhibit more intelligence than you.

[VividNinjaScar]

Just trying to help you out is all. Seriously, a dumb fúck degenerate like yourself doesn't deserve to go on living. A drooling neanderthal would exhibit more intelligence than you.

Coming from you, that means nothing to me. In fact, all you've done is show the entire world how much of a failure you are. You resort to insults because you had no idea what you were talking about, and when that didn't work, you go on telling me to kill myself. Really, you are one classy guy.

[cunny_funt1011]

You resort to insults because you had no idea what you were talking about.

No, I resort to insults because you're peddling blatant misinformation and lies on this forum in pathetic defense of your beloved GFWL. You are so deluded you actually believe your own lies are facts. You still haven't provided me with any sources for ANY of your assertions, and you categorically ignore any evidence that doesn't agree with your worldview. If I told you to kill yourself it's for the good of us all. It'll be one less stubborn, ignorant degenerate polluting this world and our gene pool.

[DarkPGR]

I hope I'm not the only one who reported that troll cunny_funt1011.

Back on topic. I tried the game on my laptop today... it isn't very powerful but gets the job done...

I can play it without problems at 800x600 with everything in low, the game still looks pretty good though. Haven't tried updating the drivers (which ARE outdated since I don't use it for gaming, I don't keep it updated).

Tried logging in with a 100% offline profile (since all gaming services are blocked on campus) and it wouldn't let me, so I can confirm BUlletstorm doesn't support local profiles.

LIVE profiles though work flawlessly... it automatically signed me in offline mode when it couldn't connect to LIVE (with Sign-in automatically checked, the whole thing was completely transparent to me... a small message on the lower right corner alerted me of the fact and went away before I even started to play.

Since I wasn't home all day, haven't advanced much on the campaign, but replayed the first part on my laptop and got the 10 headshots achievement :P

[GrimCW]

I hope I'm not the only one who reported that troll cunny_funt1011.

nope, not alone :p

hmm so offline mode with a live profile does work?
maybe they fixed that in GFWL, cause for awhile it wasn't :)

[DarkPGR]

nope, not alone :p

hmm so offline mode with a live profile does work?
maybe they fixed that in GFWL, cause for awhile it wasn't :)

been using LIVE since 2008 I think, and not even once has Offline mode failed on me... if you have a LIVE profile, it goes to offline mode if it can't connect for whatever reason (it works exactly the same as it does on the Xbox 360. Be aware though, that developers can stop it from working... but by default it is supported).

[GrimCW]

been using LIVE since 2008 I think, and not even once has Offline mode failed on me... if you have a LIVE profile, it goes to offline mode if it can't connect for whatever reason (it works exactly the same as it does on the Xbox 360. Be aware though, that developers can stop it from working... but by default it is supported).

i've used it as long as its been about tbh (Halo 2), and for a period there they had Halo 2 not save checkpoints unless logged in (it'd constantly warn of this if you lost connection and prevent achievements from appearing unless you restarted at the last logged checkpoint. tmk H2 still does this), patched it out come GoW, and then it was back in about 6 months ago and in GoW. Twas also valid in Fallout 3 at that time. level progress saved, but checkpoints would not.
Someone mentioned it to me as i hadn't played any of'em in awhile, so i checked and it was so for some reason. Haven't tinkered with it in Bulletstorm yet, having to much fun between memory leak problems :p

wonder if its actually just a glitch or something in there somewhere that appears once in awhile within the system..

[DarkPGR]

i've used it as long as its been about tbh (Halo 2), and for a period there they had Halo 2 not save checkpoints unless logged in (it'd constantly warn of this if you lost connection and prevent achievements from appearing unless you restarted at the last logged checkpoint. tmk H2 still does this), patched it out come GoW, and then it was back in about 6 months ago and in GoW. Twas also valid in Fallout 3 at that time. level progress saved, but checkpoints would not.
Someone mentioned it to me as i hadn't played any of'em in awhile, so i checked and it was so for some reason. Haven't tinkered with it in Bulletstorm yet, having to much fun between memory leak problems :p

wonder if its actually just a glitch or something in there somewhere that appears once in awhile within the system..

I have those 3 games, and having played them offline before (with my LIVE profile, just without being connected to the internet) I can guarantee that they work, and save properly, as long as you have already activated them.

A game not saving when offline isn't a GFWL feature, but rahter something coded by the devs... the way GFWL works is if you activate, you can play and save whenever you want without problems, so if there's a game that doesn't work like that, it was donde on purpose by the dev team.

[dementedlullaby]

How much does MS pay this guy? Wow he's basically in every thread white knighting for G4WL. If he doesn't work for MS I feel bad for him =(.

I'm fairly sure there's forums dedicated to G4WL, perhaps you made a wrong turn somewhere.

[Bozebo]

TBH, gfwl isn't a bad idea in general. But just looking at it makes me hate it because it looks and feels like it should be on a console and it is really slow to respond etc.

The funny thing is, we don't need to pay for the service. Of course paying for it would be rather wrong (long term running costs can very easily fit into profit from sales), but it is essentially the same thing as xbox live and xbox users have to pay for that lol.

Also, gfwl may make it harder for pirates. But it absolutely cannot make it 100% impossible to crack a game, if you understand anything about infosec then that is obvious. It only takes 1 person to make a custom gfwl service provider and it is as useless as steam for anti piracy.

Anyway, CD Projekt proved that drm isn't required to get good sales. The likes of Microsoft and Activision have far too many shareholders to please so they need to squeeze every drop of cash from a game to keep the business model sustainable and still take some (lots :P) money for themselves.

Essentially, it is impossible for any DRM solution to work. If pirates really want, they will find a way to crack the system - all that can be done is to make this more difficult/awkward.

[VividNinjaScar]

No, I resort to insults because you're peddling blatant misinformation and lies on this forum in pathetic defense of your beloved GFWL. You are so deluded you actually believe your own lies are facts. You still haven't provided me with any sources for ANY of your assertions, and you categorically ignore any evidence that doesn't agree with your worldview. If I told you to kill yourself it's for the good of us all. It'll be one less stubborn, ignorant degenerate polluting this world and our gene pool.

Aw, looks like you got the hammer. Ah well, you got what you deserved.

So much rage over me not thinking the same way you do.

nope, not alone :p

hmm so offline mode with a live profile does work?
maybe they fixed that in GFWL, cause for awhile it wasn't :)

Offline mode works in almost all the GFWL games. Bulletstorm works in offline mode also, just not with an offline -profile-.

[Scared]

Wow. I wasted 10 minutes trying to get GFWL to stop breaking my game.

Start game
Attempt to log in, fail (email + password was correct)
Attempt to log in again, fail
Try 5 more times before it finally works
Slowly download profile
Accept game update
Slowly download game update
Get told that I need to quit the game to continue the update, sent to the title screen
Attempt to progress to the menu to quit
Told I have to be signed in to get to the menu
Can't sign in because I need to finish the update
Kicked back to the title screen

I didn't realise that Microsoft now allows non-progression bugs in their games.

[DarkPGR]

Wow. I wasted 10 minutes trying to get GFWL to stop breaking my game.

Start game
Attempt to log in, fail (email + password was correct)
Attempt to log in again, fail
Try 5 more times before it finally works
Slowly download profile
Accept game update
Slowly download game update
Get told that I need to quit the game to continue the update, sent to the title screen
Attempt to progress to the menu to quit
Told I have to be signed in to get to the menu
Can't sign in because I need to finish the update
Kicked back to the title screen

I didn't realise that Microsoft now allows non-progression bugs in their games.

In general, that means you were having a very crappy connection at the moment. If there's any communication error during sign-in, it won't let you get online (and just like steam, it will try to blame it on the username + password combination not being correct).

You don't need to be signed in to be in the title screen, that's plain BS. You do need to be signed in if you tried to get into the game (perhaps you hit Enter o Space twice).

So, long story short, all of this was your own mistake. The update takes less than 5 minutes even on my 4 Mbps connection, and signing in takes lik 3 seconds.

[Friendliest]

GFWL is for game developers who forgot how to port games to the PC correctly and route everything through a pseudo XBox backend. It's unnecessary as a DRM, like all of them actually, since every game is gonna get cracked anyway.

And multiplayer? It's as effective in preventing players from multiplayer as a CD-Key, and besides being an emulation of XBox Live it's totally worthless.

some ppl on this thread actually know what's up. ^^ this is one of them.

why? because hammer legion members and thieves don't like it? It's the only DRM that stops thieves from using the game before release, and completely stoops them from multiplayer afterwards (stuff no other drm does).

LIVE made it a worthy purchase on PC. If it wasn't LIVE, I would've gotten it on Xbox 360 (Since that would've been the overall better version).

wow your points are so bad. you're not even a MS shill; you're just talking out your ***. learn, IMO.

Oh no, you have to press one extra button before you can play! How dumb!it is dumb. anything redundant is dumb, and MS are the kings of it, and they should not be supported in making our lives SLOWER. i hope u understand that.

simply look at the difference in NAMING. "Steam" = 1 word, 1 syllable. Quickly spoken. Creator is not worried about over-branding their product such as "Valve Super Steam Gaming Platform By Valve", because they know it is (relatively*) good enough that quality alone will make it popular. (* god, what a strange day, that I have to vouch for Steam...)

then u have "Games For Windows Live". WTF?! What does that even mean? Windows Live is a bunch of pseudo cloud apps that no one in their right mind wants anything to do with. "Games for Windows" almost makes sense, but they have to tack on that stupid "Live", which, for those of you who don't follow these things, was about their entire strategy for how they're going to dominate the Internet, since about 8-10 years ago, after the use of ".Net" as a stupid unnecessary name for everything, failed. that's right: we will win them over with a WORD, rather than delivering quality product.

bottom line: redundant, garbage concept/product conceived and delivered in MS's typical "us, too!" fashion by out of touch tools like this guy (http://jimlynch.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/ballmer1.jpg), and of course this guy (http://www.gamingmoments.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/majornelson.jpg)

One extra button the first time you play a LIVE game (if you click on Sign in Automatically, you just run the game and it works!). And with no extra programs slowing your PC boot time either, since it only signs in when you go in-game!running anything, including steam, @ boot time = non-optimal.

I agree but hey you get fake achievement points that don't mean anything and don't unlock anything extra and you get a different friend base.

It's at least possible that Microsoft will be around in 50 years, but to say that you know they will be is incredibly naive. Many big companies fail or fade into obscurity. We don't even know if the OS will be relevant in 50 years, or even the PC itself.

Besides, I'm not worried about whether Microsoft will be around long enough for me to continue to play my games, but that their services to authenticate those purchases will be.

For example, Microsoft dropped support for original XBoxes in XBox live at least a couple years ago, and those who purchased content there are out of luck. I don't doubt that eventually they will obsolete old PC games as well.this and a billion more reasons why MS is bad. the less third party BS you have to engage in to play a game, the better.

Yeah, every game will be cracked. But steamworks games are cracked before release and thieves can enjoy the complete game, including multiplayer. LIVE games are only cracked AFTER release, and even then thieves are completely locked out of multiplayer.

You can also buy and download games through the Games for Windows Marketplace, and they have some INSANE deals ($0.99 games anyone? they have had 14 sales like that so far, and among the games on sale were Age of Empires III Complete Collection, Shadowrun, Viva Piñata, among others, for $0.99 each).

Patching through steam is the most buggy and slow experience possible... The downloads "Suspend" themselves, the speeds are way too unstable, some games end up corrupted and you're forced to completely remove and reinstall them (happened to me many times with different games on steam), it FORCES the patch down your throat, whether you like it or not (slow connection? too bad, you can't play then).

The community features are just about the same as those of LIVE, except that the achievements are even more pointless and multiplayer gaming requires a lot more steps.

more FUD and reverse FUD. me: 300+ steam games owned and never had to reinstall due to corruption. you: mystery problems.

who are you anyway, the morality police? I don't really care if "thieves" can play, TBH, because anyone knows that a crack/rip experience is a lesser experience, anyway. they are already paying the price. I am of the opinion that the more ppl who wind up playing a game, and liking it, the stronger the community will ultimately be, so I see more ppl playing as a good thing, no matter what their means. crack-users will ultimately buy if they want the full, proper experience.

plenty of great sales on Steam, too. (U don't think I payed anywhere near retail for all those games, do u ??!!)

[Shock120]

I don't like GFWL after the BS they pulled with Halo 2 Vista, and their forums are strictly for Console on PC gamers.

[kiku]

GFWL fanboys. If you detest Steam so much don't use it. It really is that simple. Same reason I and many others don't buy or want games with that contard pos software on our pcs.

[Shock120]

GFWL Hammer Legion Members. If you detest Steam so much don't use it. It really is that simple. Same reason I and many others don't buy or want games with that contard pos software on our pcs.I agree.

[Error 52]

You know what?

I don't like GFWL, but i'm damn close to.

But before I get into why, let me say one thing: GFWL users, stop ♥♥♥♥♥ing at steam users. Steam users, stop ♥♥♥♥♥ing at GFWL users.

So anyway:

Pros:

GFWL connects to your XBOX Live account, which I find very nice.
Couple of free games on it: Tinker and that Game Room thing. Well, game room was more of a service, but you could try the game for free or use tokens. I know steam has free games too, but still.
Achievement points do tell you if you are improving in gaming. If you get from 600 to 1000, that gives you some satisfaction that you are getting better.
The most bought game menu is interesting. Nice to see what other people have bought.

Cons:

Pain to get games running. Sometimes it keeps asking you to update even if you already have.
Really buggy at times.
No search option in the Game Store. Seriously. What the hell.
Annoying to set up a offline account.

[TimM]

Yes, we can all argue against GFWL, it is stupid having GFWL on Steam games. It should be removed and then the same game be available only for GFWL.

So people who prefer strictly GFWL can download it there.

Anyways, we can all agree on Steam is the better service.
Even the numbers speak for themselves. Most people use Steam. Consumers goes to what they like the most.

I like both. I just hate when Steam games have GFWL on their games.

[ironhorseUSMC]

why? because hammer legion members and thieves don't like it? It's the only DRM that stops thieves from using the game before release, and completely stoops them from multiplayer afterwards (stuff no other drm does).

LIVE made it a worthy purchase on PC. If it wasn't LIVE, I would've gotten it on Xbox 360 (Since that would've been the overall better version).


no. it was available for pirating 4 hours before it was released on steam or Games for Crap. so thats wrong.
secondly, theres no real multiplayer here so thats irrelevant.

so how exactly did having it on live "make it a worthy purchase on PC" ??
you just sound like a paid MS employee. i personally talked to the GFWL dev team this year at CES. they know its a fail. one dev personally told me they have nothing over steam when i questioned him why i would ever use their service instead.

(also, encrypted singleplayer save games that cant be transferred to different computers? come on..)

[VividNinjaScar]

Yes, we can all argue against GFWL, it is stupid having GFWL on Steam games. It should be removed and then the same game be available only for GFWL.

So people who prefer strictly GFWL can download it there.



Can't do that. It would split a lot of communities. Steam players would only be able to play with Steam players and GFWL with GFWL. It just would work. That is a huge reason why Lost Planet 2 multiplayer died almost instantly. A patch botched the digital and retail multiplayer.



Anyways, we can all agree on Steam is the better service.
Even the numbers speak for themselves. Most people use Steam. Consumers goes to what they like the most.

The numbers mean dickall when accounts are forced for retail games as well. The profits, however, mean a lot. There is no doubt Steam is the most popular digital outlet. Steam is better in some aspects, and GFWL in others.

[TimM]

Steam is better in some aspects, and GFWL in others.

I can most certainly agree to that.

[jimbofluffy]

Steam is better in some aspects, and GFWL in others.

I can most certainly agree to that.

Ditto. I have bought from both when they have had sales, and right now GFWL has a better deal for Bulletstorm: a free copy of Gears.

[sfade]

Well, in this case GFWL actually saved me money by preventing me from purchasing the game. I was semi-interested in it but I'm tired of having to go through multiple layers of corporate bulls--t that is badly designed and implemented to play a game. In my experience GFWL has been nothing but a huge hassle and headache. I'll stick with Steamworks titles, never had a problem with them, call me a Steam HLM if you like.

[SurrenderMonkey]

Why keeping using GFLW? It's a console port, which makes GFWL very attractive (if expensive) for the developer. So there.

What you guys doing for it to be a huge hassle... Never been that much of a problem as far as I'm concerned.

[hal859]

You can also buy and download games through the Games for Windows Marketplace, and they have some INSANE deals ($0.99 games anyone? they have had 14 sales like that so far, and among the games on sale were Age of Empires III Complete Collection, Shadowrun, Viva Piñata, among others, for $0.99 each).

I bought AOE3 for a dime... great deal. Viva Pinata too. Too bad that was about it. You ought not compare GFWL to the legendary Steam sales. That's really shaky ground.


Patching through steam is the most buggy and slow experience possible... The downloads "Suspend" themselves, the speeds are way too unstable, some games end up corrupted and you're forced to completely remove and reinstall them (happened to me many times with different games on steam), it FORCES the patch down your throat, whether you like it or not (slow connection? too bad, you can't play then).


I'm having a hard time understanding how you can criticize the Steam patching process (which is optional, by the way... just uncheck it). GFWL patching is an absolute nightmare. Log in to game. Sign into GFWL. Oh.. a patch I have to accept. Download progress bar indicates almost nothing. Oh.. restart my game. That's horrible. If you leave Steam running, your game is ready for you to play.


The community features are just about the same as those of LIVE, except that the achievements are even more pointless and multiplayer gaming requires a lot more steps.

lol, no.. seriously.

I can see you like GFWL a lot. I see you in every thread that mentions it. No need to be so religious about it though. There are good things about GFWL without having to delve into the ridiculous.

[irogue]

I never really have had an issue with GFWL myself (I own a few games with it and all have run as good as i hoped albeit some very long delays with patching.)

But i must say i had several friends who were very disgruntled about GFWL being in this title and everytime a game comes out with it i dread to tell ppl if it does contain GFWL so even if it (GFWL) is fine for some you must see that it really has a bit of a sad panda reputation among gamers.

Qether or not you think it's great or steam sucks is irrelevant what is relevant is the reputation of GFWL is not good among PC gamers.

As is said though i honestly don't care aslong as it works im happy but yeh..

[Foulplay]

Patching through steam is the most buggy and slow experience possible... The downloads "Suspend" themselves, the speeds are way too unstable, some games end up corrupted and you're forced to completely remove and reinstall them (happened to me many times with different games on steam), it FORCES the patch down your throat, whether you like it or not (slow connection? too bad, you can't play then).


The downloads only suspend when you launch another STEAM title, and the download speeds I get are 1.4MB/s constantly without fail.

Personally I've found STEAM to be a great service so far with no problems, other than Metro 2033 being a total mess by the time the download finished the 1st time and I had to download it again, but that was 1 game out of about 35 that I've purchased on here.

[CaseySmith]

My bad experiences of GFWL:

Fallout 3 modding with GFWL makes it crap out, so you disable it.

Buying DLC for Fallout 3 puts the DLC files in stupid places, rather then its rightful place: in the data folder.

Street Fighter 4 GFWL made it crash, and GFWL didn't want to auto-update so I had to do it manually.

Red Faction: Guerrilla some problem with GFWL, forgot what it was, but the game got kinda boring, so that time was brief and not very memorable.


My bad experiences of Steam:

Had trouble getting it to work with some other games that I didn't buy from steam, or was not available on steam.



Conclusion:

GFWL has been buggy for me everytime I've used it.

Never had any real big show stopping problems or bugs which hindered my gaming, or made me attempt to disable Steam. Also Steam is so awesome I try to get it to work with everything, but sometimes it fails.

[kiph]

VividNinja and DarkPGR, if you love GFWL and hate Steam so much, what the hell are you doing here? Seriously, go back to the GFWL forums.

Do you see us Steam users invading the GFWL forums? No, we don't. So kindly do us the same courtesy by not invading ours.

[flibitijibibo]

DarkPGR can't go back because he got banned. I think his name was "Wii60 DarkPGR" if you want to look him up. :P

Edit: Couldn't help myself: http://forums.gamesforwindows.com/p/16101/138779.aspx#138779

So yeah, even they were sick of him.

Update: Found a couple more amusing threads.

http://forums.gamesforwindows.com/p/15737/135534.aspx

And here's him not giving to charity because of Steam: http://forums.gamesforwindows.com/p/15857/136984.aspx

[dementedlullaby]

DarkPGR can't go back because he got banned. I think his name was "Wii60 DarkPGR" if you want to look him up. :P

Edit: Couldn't help myself: http://forums.gamesforwindows.com/p/16101/138779.aspx#138779

So yeah, even they were sick of him.

That's pretty sad. lol

[flibitijibibo]

Found a couple more amusing threads, see above. Oh and uh guess I should take a shot at the thread topic.

GFWL is usually due to contracts with Microsoft that require the PC version of the game to use the Xbox Live framework or whatever. I imagine that Bulletstorm is in the pile with Gears of War, which also used the service. THQ and Capcom also seem to have this issue (well, not THQ anymore, but yeah). By this point it's REALLY rare that a developer will freely go "alright, let's give GFWL a try!" with the 900-pound gorilla from Valve available to use. I'd also say in support of that statement that OSX (not necessarily GNU/Linux unfortunately) is becoming more and more of a serious platform for games, and GFWL certainly won't help that along, heh.

I remember buying Halo 2 Vista and being so hopeful of the service. Doesn't help that I no longer use Windows.

[veritasx2099x]

GFWL does nothing to stop piracy. I've actually heard people say that pirated copies of GFWL games are better because it goes around all the GFWL crap. Personally, I hate the GFWL system enough to not buy games that come with it, but piracy is pretty pointless because you can't play multiplayer which is the main draw for most games now.

I agree with the op, developers please stop using this pointless system.

[Link-To-This]

I don't get why people are so angry.

Game was cracked and uploaded on the 23/2/2011

The release dates were

NA February 22, 2011
AU February 24, 2011
UK February 25, 2011

Crack to allow saving.

"Wah they can't play online"

They obviously know that, though there is already cracks being released that allow multilayer.


GG GFWL YOUR PROTECTION IS AMAZING

[Chapa9dj]

DarkPGR can't go back because he got banned. I think his name was "Wii60 DarkPGR" if you want to look him up. :P

Edit: Couldn't help myself: http://forums.gamesforwindows.com/p/16101/138779.aspx#138779

So yeah, even they were sick of him.

Update: Found a couple more amusing threads.

http://forums.gamesforwindows.com/p/15737/135534.aspx

And here's him not giving to charity because of Steam: http://forums.gamesforwindows.com/p/15857/136984.aspx
Heh, i been keeping an eye on that forum for quite long time, i don't have an account there but i just browse it for the lols.
As for DarkPGR, looks like he got temp banned on Steam forums again. :p
The guy obviously has issues.

[soviet_]

GFWL has the worst patching system possible. Apart from that it's OK

[Farlong]

If they want to offer GFWl to those who also own consoles and want to use it: Fine.
But to force it the way they do on everyone: Unnessecary.

Especially when it is the cause of many peoples crashes and their unability to play the game itself.

[Scared]

You don't need to be signed in to be in the title screen, that's plain BS. You do need to be signed in if you tried to get into the game (perhaps you hit Enter o Space twice).

Yes. Yes you do. I just did it again to make sure I didn't miss something and it is impossible to progress to the menu screen unless you are logged into a Live account and when you can't log in because it needs to update then you are up ♥♥♥♥ creek.

[kiph]

I love how DarkPGR now needs to resort to fabricating complete lies in order to support his arguments. Bloody pathetic.

[mikaelolsson]

I pretty much NEVER post on these forums since I do not enjoy to be answered by Hammer Legion Members or 12 year olds that can't see further than their ballsack.
This discussion however has to be the most tarded piece of steaming crap i have seen in a long time...
Who seriously gives a flying pigs asset about wether or not MS has sold som company most gamers today have never even heard about?, Welcome to the harsh reality of capitalism son.
Who gives even a drop of ♥♥♥♥ about who blames who for what not?, Seriously guys, if you hate each other that bloody much why don't you just bloody arrange a meeting and beat the ♥♥♥♥ out of each other to decide wich gaming platform is the best, because that makes about as much sense as you stupid bloody arguments.

THE main point of the OP was to try and find out WHY game companies still use GFWL?, and to be honest i find this to be a rather valid question sicne i actually am wondering the same thing.

And before you start throwing crap at me wich I honestly could not care any less about, let me state two facts for you, all the other crap aside and all that since i believe most gamers are perhaps not as interested in the other crap you are talking about besides the original question.

1: I do own 157 games in my steam list, many of them bought at sales, and even more at full price.
I can remember having problems with ONE of those 157 games and that was CoD:4 modern warfare, where the Vac recognised punkbuster as a third party program and therefore would not allow it.

2: I have not bought ANY games at all from GFWL because of the following reasons.

I bought dawn of war 2 from steam, and that game works wonderfully untill you start any of the online components where the gameplay is lagging and sluggish at its absolute best, not to mention the ♥♥♥♥ing survival mode (Catching up lag grace: 29 seconds).

I bought a hardcopy of Lost planet 2 wich I have yet not been able to start online because windows live keeps alternating between 3 different error messages, including that my cd-key has allready been used wich it has not (I called AND e mailed to have this looked upon).

I bought Dead rising 2 wich worked just fine... untill...(drumroll), i tried starting the MP trough windows live and it simply just won't let me join anything.

I bought resident evil 5 in order to play co op with a friend, would have been an awesome game if it was not for the 100% rate of disconnects in co op.

I bought blackligt: tango down wich worked just ♥♥♥♥ing fine untill you start up GFWL wich then proceeds in givving you a laggy gameplay, errors and just like all other GFWL game the inability to join as a bloody party in a team oriented game.

--------------------------------------------------------------

So no, I do not buy ANY more games using GFWL but not because i hate one company more than the other, but simply because I cannot play the god damned games when they use that platform.
I have a 100% failure rate when using gfwl and allmost 100% success rate on steam.
It is as simple as that.
And up untill now i have not even mentioned the fact that gfwl has the most appaling ui i have ever seen.
And another fact, someone mentione that here on steam you buy the games and then get to keep them?!, have you even read the terms from steam?, because if you have not i would suggest that you do.
Or i ca simply just sum it up for you, Steam does NOT give you ANY kind of owners right to ANYTHING you buy here, (wich should be well known by now since some companies has threatened steam to not release their games on that platform if that does not change).
You do in fact NOT even own you own account or your own account information and none the less the game you buy here, steam gives them selves the right to delete your account or anything therein whenever they want to and however they want to without giving you any kind of warning or such. (they allso made a big effort in formulating their users agreement in such a way that you sure as hell cannot sue them for anything they do either).
They allso has some really dodgy guidelines about in what situation to actually delete your content, so if you just look at it very simply, they can delete your entire games list and account because you say something in this forum that they simply do not like.
So as you can see both companies pretty much sucks ♥♥♥ in some way or the other, just like EVERY damn company out there that does not give a rats ♥♥♥ about your life, person, games, whatever.
They want money.
I give them my money because the platform is by far one of the most stable that exists on the market.

god damn it, now i have a cramp in my fingers and it is all your fault.

P.S. The major fact in this rant wich i allso want to mention is that i have lots of friends both online and in real life that ALL have the exact same problems as me, and hence i do not believe it is just coincidence that the games using gfwl are the ones that specifically do not work for any of us.

[kiph]

I pretty much NEVER post on these forums since I do not enjoy to be answered by Hammer Legion Members or 12 year olds that can't see further than their ballsack.
This discussion however has to be the most tarded piece of steaming crap i have seen in a long time...
Who seriously gives a flying pigs asset about wether or not MS has sold som company most gamers today have never even heard about?, Welcome to the harsh reality of capitalism son.
Who gives even a drop of ♥♥♥♥ about who blames who for what not?, Seriously guys, if you hate each other that bloody much why don't you just bloody arrange a meeting and beat the ♥♥♥♥ out of each other to decide wich gaming platform is the best, because that makes about as much sense as you stupid bloody arguments.

THE main point of the OP was to try and find out WHY game companies still use GFWL?, and to be honest i find this to be a rather valid question sicne i actually am wondering the same thing.

And before you start throwing crap at me wich I honestly could not care any less about, let me state two facts for you, all the other crap aside and all that since i believe most gamers are perhaps not as interested in the other crap you are talking about besides the original question.

1: I do own 157 games in my steam list, many of them bought at sales, and even more at full price.
I can remember having problems with ONE of those 157 games and that was CoD:4 modern warfare, where the Vac recognised punkbuster as a third party program and therefore would not allow it.

2: I have not bought ANY games at all from GFWL because of the following reasons.

I bought dawn of war 2 from steam, and that game works wonderfully untill you start any of the online components where the gameplay is lagging and sluggish at its absolute best, not to mention the ♥♥♥♥ing survival mode (Catching up lag grace: 29 seconds).

I bought a hardcopy of Lost planet 2 wich I have yet not been able to start online because windows live keeps alternating between 3 different error messages, including that my cd-key has allready been used wich it has not (I called AND e mailed to have this looked upon).

I bought Dead rising 2 wich worked just fine... untill...(drumroll), i tried starting the MP trough windows live and it simply just won't let me join anything.

I bought resident evil 5 in order to play co op with a friend, would have been an awesome game if it was not for the 100% rate of disconnects in co op.

I bought blackligt: tango down wich worked just ♥♥♥♥ing fine untill you start up GFWL wich then proceeds in givving you a laggy gameplay, errors and just like all other GFWL game the inability to join as a bloody party in a team oriented game.

--------------------------------------------------------------

So no, I do not buy ANY more games using GFWL but not because i hate one company more than the other, but simply because I cannot play the god damned games when they use that platform.
I have a 100% failure rate when using gfwl and allmost 100% success rate on steam.
It is as simple as that.
And up untill now i have not even mentioned the fact that gfwl has the most appaling ui i have ever seen.
And another fact, someone mentione that here on steam you buy the games and then get to keep them?!, have you even read the terms from steam?, because if you have not i would suggest that you do.
Or i ca simply just sum it up for you, Steam does NOT give you ANY kind of owners right to ANYTHING you buy here, (wich should be well known by now since some companies has threatened steam to not release their games on that platform if that does not change).
You do in fact NOT even own you own account or your own account information and none the less the game you buy here, steam gives them selves the right to delete your account or anything therein whenever they want to and however they want to without giving you any kind of warning or such. (they allso made a big effort in formulating their users agreement in such a way that you sure as hell cannot sue them for anything they do either).
They allso has some really dodgy guidelines about in what situation to actually delete your content, so if you just look at it very simply, they can delete your entire games list and account because you say something in this forum that they simply do not like.
So as you can see both companies pretty much sucks ♥♥♥ in some way or the other, just like EVERY damn company out there that does not give a rats ♥♥♥ about your life, person, games, whatever.
They want money.
I give them my money because the platform is by far one of the most stable that exists on the market.

god damn it, now i have a cramp in my fingers and it is all your fault.

u mad?

[mikaelolsson]

u mad?

Concerning wich part more specifically?

[kiph]

Concerning wich part more specifically?

all of it

[FrontlinerDelta]

As far as "protection" records go I do believe Ubisoft currently holds the title of their draconian DRM being the strongest against pirates (was still cracked though, obviously. Just not as fast.) and it holds the record for pissing legitimate customers off the fastest.

[richard.eid]

As far as "protection" records go I do believe Ubisoft currently holds the title of their draconian DRM being the strongest against pirates (was still cracked though, obviously. Just not as fast.) and it holds the record for jarateing legitimate customers off the fastest.

No, that would be Starforce. Not only did it manage to upset customers(who were mostly being irrational and claiming things that weren't true), but it also protected Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory for 422 days. That's the "world record".

Even though GFWL and Starforce do two completely different things, Starforce protection solutions offer nothing back to the consumer while GFWL aims to offer services in return for the copy protection, Starforce protections are still more consumer friendly DRM schemes...as outlined by mikaelolsson. The Starforce copy protection used in Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory didn't prevent any legitimate customers from playing. Only pirates. It doesn't sound like the same can be said about GFWL whose return services which can barely be used most of the time can't even compete with Starforce's 'nothing in return' policy.

[LordGurciullo]

Is it true that GFWL = no dedicated servers? Or is that just something someone said once?

[CaseySmith]

My bad experiences of GFWL:

Fallout 3 modding with GFWL makes it crap out, so you disable it.

Buying DLC for Fallout 3 puts the DLC files in stupid places, rather then its rightful place: in the data folder.

Street Fighter 4 GFWL made it crash, and GFWL didn't want to auto-update so I had to do it manually.

Red Faction: Guerrilla some problem with GFWL, forgot what it was, but the game got kinda boring, so that time was brief and not very memorable.


My bad experiences of Steam:

Had trouble getting it to work with some other games that I didn't buy from steam, or was not available on steam.



Conclusion:

GFWL has been buggy for me everytime I've used it.

Never had any real big show stopping problems or bugs which hindered my gaming, or made me attempt to disable Steam. Also Steam is so awesome I try to get it to work with everything, but sometimes it fails.

I also have something else to add to this for GFWL:

Bulletstorm:

I get into Bulletstorm, it asks me to log in and put in the key etc.. Do that, then it says it needs to update, did that. The update then tells me to close down the game to let it finish.

Problem is, is that I can't get to an exit function in the game without it trying to again log into GFWL. But it can't do that because it's in the middle of updating.


GFWL, you are so awesome, and really are racking up a brilliant track-record in my book.

[flibitijibibo]

Is it true that GFWL = no dedicated servers? Or is that just something someone said once?Almost 100% of the time yes. It's simply how the service works.

Halo 2 Vista and Shadowrun actually tried to get around this issue by using separate GFWL accounts to create dedicated servers. It went like this:

- You have a GFWL account, say, flibitijibibo
- If you want to host a server, run their software and run another GFWL account, such as flibitServer

And then you would connect to servers running those accounts. It's strange, but it worked okay. This was back when GFWL charged $50USD a year though (for "gold" accounts anyway), so it ended up so poorly that nobody tries it anymore.

[d3vilsadvocate]

GFWL needs to die. NOW.

Nuff said

[AdRiAnO66]

Why keep using Steam?

The only difference between them is Cloud and possibility to make screenshots.

The game is on steam already, I don't want to instal a ♥♥♥♥tone of crap on my PC just to run something
also GFWL sux, maybe xbox users got used to it, but ther is no other app that is so much annoying for gamer

[SunriseDriver]

It's the only DRM that stops thieves from using the game before release
Not the only. How about Ubi DRM, EA's SecuROM, Steam DRM in some cases etc.?

and completely stoops them from multiplayer afterwards (stuff no other drm does).
Live is an easy way for pirates to play MP.

[AlexTaldren]

Steam > GFWL

[VividNinjaScar]

Is it true that GFWL = no dedicated servers? Or is that just something someone said once?

False. It is up to the developers if they want to use dedicated servers or not. Just like it is up to them if they want to use the cloud services or not.

[FearlessGoat]

I have never had one single problem with gfwl and I personally prefair its achievement system over steams but again its no biggie.
What steam has over gfwl is the fact you can download as many times as you want of a said game if you bought it.
Piracy wise as some people have said, steam isnt what it used to be and usally games are cracked well before release, on the other hand same thing applys to gfwl with its region releasing, like america getting a game a few days before eu etc.

I really dont see what the big fuss is about, both are good. GFWl messed up at the start by trying to charge pc gamers for its gold service and has never recovered from that.

By the way theres some xbox360 ports Id like to see on pc :P
Lost Odyssey, Red dead redemption etc even if it was a port I wouldnt care

[richard.eid]

False. It is up to the developers if they want to use dedicated servers or not. Just like it is up to them if they want to use the cloud services or not.

Yeah, I don't know where that misconception comes from. I think people are confusing it with matchmaking.

In other news, and before you think I'm trying to harp on GFWL, I have a question. Is there a problem with the GFWL forums right now? I have both a gamertag and a Live ID but I can't seem to find the right way to post on the GFWL forums. In one case I see that I'm signed in. I know I'm signed in because the Sign Out button appears at the top right of every page at http://forums.gamesforwindows.com But if I try to post, I get an "Invalid User Credentials The username and/or password cannot be validated, or your account is locked out or has not been approved yet." error.

I'm sometimes also forwarded to both http://www.gamesforwindows.com and http://www.xbox.com Where I can successfully sign in and see my gamertag. But if I go back to the forums I'll also sometimes see:
GamerTag Not Found
You need a gamertag to use the forums on the Games for Windows website—it’s easy to get one. Go to http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=6625227 to choose a name and other cool things that’ll help people identify you in the forums.

Then return to the forums and sign in with your new gamertag to fully participate in the forums on the new Games for Windows website.

See you soon!
But I'm signed in with my gamertag. So I've had a bunch of people try it and they all experience the same thing. I actually saw that someone I know posted a message just yesterday and I see others posting on the GFWL forums. But for the life of me I can't get logged in. I've seen a lot of other people around the netz have this same problem. Thus far there have been no resoultions to this that I can find. And there's no way to contact the Live Support staff, unless you can find me a link somewhere on the site. I've seen some of the Live Team members posting as recently as yesterday. But I can't seem to find a way to get in touch. Using other Microsoft channels, people have been met with some strange responses from Microsoft support staff.

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_other-gaming/every-time-i-log-into-games-for-windows-live-forum/6011b2ef-4897-47e2-b99c-f0b32fc14f15

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_other-gaming/problems-signing-in-to-games-for-windows-live-it/75981347-a0ef-4203-a076-73a0e49ee42f

Here's the problem being addressed on the Xbox forums:

http://forums.xbox.com/35188068/ShowPost.aspx

And here's the problem being addressed on the GFWL forums:

http://forums.gamesforwindows.com/p/8299/79367.aspx#79367

That's almost 1 1/2 years ago. Here's another couple of posts about it that are more recent:

http://forums.gamesforwindows.com/t/15927.aspx
http://forums.gamesforwindows.com/p/16128/139287.aspx

I know you post there, so is it possible you can contact one of the administrators to notify them of the problem? Or maybe tell me what I'm doing wrong? Is there a certain process that needs to be followed to login? I'm really lost on this one.

[VividNinjaScar]

snip

I'm not completely sure, as I already have an account. From what I hear, there is a bug in the system that makes it impossible for some people who don't already have an account to make one. That is why the forums are so dead over there. There are talks of them not fixing it, because they are getting ready to roll out a new version of the forums anyway.

At this point, I don't think there is anything you can do about it besides wait for the new version of the forums to come.

[richard.eid]

LOL?

I already have an account. I don't have to create a new one. Shouldn't this allow me to access the forums? I've had a Live ID since Live IDs existed. If someone has a problem with GFWL, like I'm having, how do I contact them? Like I pointed out, it's been almost 1 1/2 years with this problem.

[VividNinjaScar]

Sorry, I meant forum account. If you don't have a forum ID you can't make one at this time.

They have a phone number you can contact them by, as well as an email.

[GrimCW]

LOL?

I already have an account. I don't have to create a new one. Shouldn't this allow me to access the forums? I've had a Live ID since Live IDs existed. If someone has a problem with GFWL, like I'm having, how do I contact them? Like I pointed out, it's been almost 1 1/2 years with this problem.

IIRC you have to link the Live ID and GFWL ID together, they were seperate at one point but have long since merged.

[richard.eid]

Sorry, I meant forum account. If you don't have a forum ID you can't make one at this time.

They have a phone number you can contact them by, as well as an email.
Is there any particular reason for this? Again, how would I communicate the issues I'm having with GFWL to the support team? Since the forums are up and running and people can post, why should I have to e-mail or call? Why don't you have to e-mail or call? Why aren't new users allowed to post? What qualifies me as a new user? How long ago should I have created a forum account that would exempt me from this restriction? How long have new users been unable to post? And on the forums, the only option you have to login is with your Live ID or gamertag so why aren't these working? Why are there any options to login if it's not possible for me to anyway? If forum accounts are separate from a Live ID and are separate from a gamertag, why does it tell me I have to create a gamertag? Why does it direct me to the Live ID sign-in page if a Live ID isn't what grants me access to their forums? Why does it tell me I need a gamertag if a gamertag isn't what grants me access to their forums? Where would I create a new forum account? What would I normally have to click on? Have the options for creating a forum account been removed or is there something not working properly between the Live ID/gamertag system? Is there an ETA on the "new version of the forums"?

IIRC you have to link the Live ID and GFWL ID together, they were seperate at one point but have long since merged.
These have been linked for as long as I can remember. Like I said, I can go to http://www.gamesforwindows.com and see that I'm logged in with my gamertag. To login, I entered the credentials for my Live ID. After I entered these credentials, my gamertag was automatically signed in, too. And when I go to the forums after this, I have a button on the top right of every page that says "Sign Out"...so I'm signed in, right?

I know I'm always harping on GFWL, but this is also another barrier that begs the question posed in the OP: Why keep using GFWL?

[Alienware Gamer]

What steam has over gfwl is the fact you can download as many times as you want of a said game if you bought it. GFWL has no limits whatsoever on downloading anything!

It has activation limits like all games do but its now something like 5x5 which is 5 activations on 5 different PC's before you need to call for another activation & older games have at least 15 activations why anyone would need more is beyond me!

The DRM limit is not down to GFWL either only the publishers set those DRM limits.........

[VividNinjaScar]

GFWL has no limits whatsoever on downloading anything!

It has activation limits like all games do but its now something like 5x5 which is 5 activations on 5 different PC's before you need to call for another activation & older games have at least 15 activations why anyone would need more is beyond me!

The DRM limit is not down to GFWL either only the publishers set those DRM limits.........

Games purchased from GFWM have five activations a month. Retail games are either unlimited for one profile, or fifteen for multiple profiles.

Is there any particular reason for this? Again, how would I communicate the issues I'm having with GFWL to the support team? Since the forums are up and running and people can post, why should I have to e-mail or call? Why don't you have to e-mail or call? Why aren't new users allowed to post? What qualifies me as a new user? How long ago should I have created a forum account that would exempt me from this restriction? How long have new users been unable to post? And on the forums, the only option you have to login is with your Live ID or gamertag so why aren't these working? Why are there any options to login if it's not possible for me to anyway? If forum accounts are separate from a Live ID and are separate from a gamertag, why does it tell me I have to create a gamertag? Why does it direct me to the Live ID sign-in page if a Live ID isn't what grants me access to their forums? Why does it tell me I need a gamertag if a gamertag isn't what grants me access to their forums? Where would I create a new forum account? What would I normally have to click on? Have the options for creating a forum account been removed or is there something not working properly between the Live ID/gamertag system? Is there an ETA on the "new version of the forums"?



Contrary to popular belief, I do not work at Microsoft.


Yet :(

[Shifty_Pete]

Steam > Every other DD service > Horse crap > GFWL

[kamm]

why? because hammer legion members and thieves don't like it? It's the only DRM that stops thieves from using the game before release, and completely stoops them from multiplayer afterwards (stuff no other drm does).

LIVE made it a worthy purchase on PC. If it wasn't LIVE, I would've gotten it on Xbox 360 (Since that would've been the overall better version).

This is why we still have this utter piece of ♥♥♥♥♥ LIVE: because clueless & skill-less console idiots like this one keep arguing for it, without ever ♥♥♥♥in understanding a single word of the entire copyright vs DRM vs cracking issue.

[Grgolj]

why? because hammer legion members and thieves don't like it? It's the only DRM that stops thieves from using the game before release, and completely stoops them from multiplayer afterwards (stuff no other drm does).
It sure didn't affect console version which got pirated to hell and back almost two weeks before the release date. So why are we PC users suffering? Console games don't have draconian protections and they sell well, they got the freakin' demo and we got screwed over and later got Duty Calls (which is funny but the things it makes fun of,like regen and bloody screens, are in Bulletstorm too). Live doesn't support almost entire world and if you happen not to live in one of 20-30 countries it supports, bad luck - no online for you. It actually doesn't mean anything for users of pirated version since they can play without logging in etc. but we, the paying customers, have to jump through hoops just to start the singleplayer campaign.

[Mexicutioner]

Because GFWL is the cheapest way to port a game to pc, it saves dev companies alot of money and time instead of them actually working their balls off and making the pc version a much better version like they used to do.

Do yourselves a favour and dont support any games that use GFWL unless they are being sold for a reasonable price obviously.

[awsometeeth]

oh god the old GFWL is awful stuff. I guess I got lucky that I have had zero problems since GOW...

[VividNinjaScar]

Because GFWL is the cheapest way to port a game to pc, it saves dev companies alot of money and time instead of them actually working their balls off and making the pc version a much better version like they used to do.

Do yourselves a favour and dont support any games that use GFWL unless they are being sold for a reasonable price obviously.

Batman Arkham Asylum, Lost Planet 2, and Resident Evil 5 all say hello. All of those are beautiful ports. Oh ♥♥♥♥, there is Dirt 2 also.

[GrimCW]

Batman Arkham Asylum, Lost Planet 2, and Resident Evil 5 all say hello. All of those are beautiful ports. Oh ♥♥♥♥, there is Dirt 2 also.

and i love each of these games very much :)
especially the 3D with Nvidia 3D Vision.. mmmmm lovely :)

can't say i've had any issues with GFWL, set it up, enter my key, ignore it to high hel and play my game.
really not a problem anymore since it doesn't require an online connection to save checkpoints anymore ala Halo 2/GoW

truly can't see where these issues are coming from, worst i had was the need to manually install the client since the autoupdate was busted.
course not telling you that doesn't help, but any idgit worth their 2 cents should know to try reinstalling a driver before throwing out the video card..

[Chapa9dj]

Batman Arkham Asylum, Lost Planet 2, and Resident Evil 5 all say hello. All of those are beautiful ports. Oh ♥♥♥♥, there is Dirt 2 also.

Excellent ports, indeed. In fact Batman is fantastic, RE5 and DiRT 2 looks way better on PC than in consoles but it's a shame that these last 2 never got any DLC. :(

[Scared]

Using GFWL would actually make the PC port MORE work since you have to get through Microsoft certification (and they always have funky things you need to do).

[Hivomnomnom]

-personnel preference
-This can cause an issue
-delete/redownload
-As above^^
-Ventrilo/skype.. plenty of other ways.
-Your Pc doesn't like you.
-Forums don't exist.
-Personnel preference
-Having Rl friends is good for you.
-Personnel preference.

As a question of personnel preference. Do you buy games to play them or did you just buy them for a glorified chat room?

Everything you say "Personnel preference" to is a feature that most people prefer.

[Alienware Gamer]

Using GFWL is the best decision any PC dev can make nowadays:

1: 85% of their Xbox 360 code to support LIVE is already PC compatible if its a multiplatform game.

2: Dev time/money is saved as no need to code for another system like Steam.

3: SSA DRM means no GFWL title which uses SSA is playable online its 100% to date uncracked & unlikely to ever be as GFWL titles use MS servers who can spoof those??? no-one so the publisher/developer wins as they sell more games & guaranteed no pirates can play online.

You can expect to see more GFWL titles in future not less so suck the hate up or why not just look at your PC & see what security setting (nearly always a router NAT/SPI Firewall issue) you have which is stopping GFWL from working properly like it does for the rest of us.

I am feeling charitable so go to this page run this MS tool & it will tell you if your Router has the correct NAT/UPNP settings if not investigate & change the config otherwise GFWL will not work properly. Its so easy to do even a child can do it & many do as GFWL has gamers of all ages!!

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/using/tools/igd/default.mspx

[flibitijibibo]

Oh man, I should post before anyone actually takes the bait.

BRING TO ME MY TROLL STAMP, SHILLINGS

(God I wish there were a way to roll r's through text.)

[GrimCW]

no-one so the publisher/developer wins as they sell more games & guaranteed no pirates can play online.




i still fail to believe this after playing Halo 2 and GoW online.
not only are they just as hacked and unmoderated as other P2P games, theres very much likely hood many are pirates as well, especially after the whole massive complaint Epic had about the piracy of GoW (and the reason PC won't see future GoW titles)

[Chapa9dj]

Using GFWL is the best decision any PC dev can make nowadays:
3: SSA DRM means no GFWL title which uses SSA is playable online its 100% to date uncracked & unlikely to ever be as GFWL titles use MS servers who can spoof those??? no-one so the publisher/developer wins as they sell more games & guaranteed no pirates can play online.
Lol seriously all this SSA ZDPP BS doesn't work, a lot of people were playing Dead Rising 2 online before release.
And if this type of service makes a lot of money, why we didn't get Alan Wake or Halo 3 port for PC.
Clearly GFWL is a mistake and it didn't save any single title from being pirated.
You can expect to see more GFWL titles in future
Last time i remember, almost every company ditched GFWL and moved to Steamworks.

Gotta love the good ol' shillery blabbering around here. :D

[Alienware Gamer]

i still fail to believe this after playing Halo 2 and GoW online.
not only are they just as hacked and unmoderated as other P2P games, theres very much likely hood many are pirates as well, especially after the whole massive complaint Epic had about the piracy of GoW (and the reason PC won't see future GoW titles) Both those games do not use SSA that's why you could play online with your pirated copy! let me know how you get on trying to play a SSA title online (not holding my breath BTW!!!)

[Alienware Gamer]

Lol seriously all this SSA ZDPP BS doesn't work, a lot of people were playing Dead Rising 2 online before release.
And if this type of service makes a lot of money, why we didn't get Alan Wake or Halo 3 port for PC.
Clearly GFWL is a mistake and it didn't save any single title from being pirated.

Last time i remember, almost every company ditched GFWL and moved to Steamworks.

Gotta love the good ol' shillery blabbering around here. :D Your wrong there is not a single GFWL game which uses SSA DRM (the bold/underline is a big clue BTW) which is playable online its a fact just deal with it or go back to your Steamworks/Valve is PC gaming clan or whatever............. LOL

Halo3 port why bother its a poor game anyway no-one would buy it on PC same as Alan Wake is average at best even if it came out about 4 years ago on Intel Quad Cores like it was supposed to few would buy its just a dated survival horror game which has annoying gameplay just to make it last longer!

GFWL is not perfect but then again neither is Steam but you know what GFWL gets the blind rabid uninformed hate because it prevents piracy go figure..........

[richard.eid]

You can expect to see more GFWL titles in future not less so suck the hate up...
Let's try to fill a complete list with the 2011 games with STEAMworks (http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/) integration (achievements, cloud saving, VAC enabled, one-click multiplayer join match, online leaderboards, retail activation, etc.)

I think it could be a useful info.

RELEASED


A.R.E.S.: Extinction Agenda (only STEAM version)
Drawn: The Painted Tower
Apox
Magicka (only STEAM version)
Monday Night Combat
Breach
Crasher
Trino
Zeit²
Who's That Flying?!
Test Drive Unlimited 2 (only STEAM version)
BIT.TRIP RUNNER
B.U.T.T.O.N.
Warhammer 40.000 Dawn of War II Retribution


COMING SOON

Dungeon Defenders (only STEAM version)
Homefront
Fate of the World (only STEAM version)
Portal 2
The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings (only STEAM version)
Kings and Castles
Brink
Duke Nukem Forever
Rock of Ages (only STEAM version)
Red Faction: Armaggeddon
Nuclear Dawn
Red Orchestra: Heroes of Stalingrad
Deus Ex: Human Revolution
Hunted: The Demon's Forge
Rage
Dino D-Day
Dear Esther
Shogun 2 Total War
Natural Selection 2
Trine 2 (only STEAM version)
Torchlight II (only STEAM version)
DOTA 2
E.Y.E.- Divine Cybermancy
Sanctum
Tactical Intervention
Postal III
Contagion
Post Apocalyptic Mayhem

How's the 2011 lineup looking for GFWL?

And going on about preventing piracy seems pointless. All DRM schemes in the past have been cracked. There's no reason to believe that GFWL won't eventually meet the same fate as the countless number of other preventative measures that have been cracked. Come back and let me know when GFWL has protected a game for 422 days like Starforce did for Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory.

[Sir_Brizz]

This is relevant.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=25072153&postcount=146

Pretty much every GFWL game has been cracked within 24 hours of hacker groups getting a copy of it. There is even a way to play those games online.

Regardless, copy protection should never be the number one reason to use any middleware.

[VividNinjaScar]

This is relevant.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=25072153&postcount=146



That post is not relevant. In fact, it is the most uninformed one I've seen.

DRM
Multiple different forms exist with GFWL. It isn't an issue. It is either one gamertag with unlimited activation or multiple gamertags with limited activations set by the publisher. Fifteen is standard, but they control that.

Patching
Patching could be better, by most people never have an issue with it. I did with Bulletstorm, but it was the patch itself and not GFWL. An updated patch came an hour later that fixed it.

Pay/Free DLC
Free DLC exists on both services. It is less restricted than people think. If DLC is going to be free, it just can't add achievements and be under a certain size. Batman AA and Bioshock 2 both have free DLC, with Bioshock 2 getting more on the way soon.

Missing Features
Sure, more features are nice. I'd love more. Nothing is 'missing' though. Oh, cloud saving? That has been supported for years. It is up to the developers to use it. Offline mode? GFWL is far superior to Steam offline, most games don't require any activation at all.

Bugs
Like what? What was already listed? Most people don't have any issues. If there is an issue, it is something on the users end. Most of the people who DO have issues are using Windows XP, a now ten year old operating system.

No Client
Shouldn't this be with missing features? There is a client. Not one that is useable for what most people want it to be, but it does exist.

Overlay
So it doesn't have a web browser? Big deal. It is a nice thing to have, but it isn't exactly one of the most demanded things in the world. I'd rather play the game than browse the web.

Price
GFWL is completely free to developers, just like Steamworks is. It has been for three years. Contrary to popular belief, even the patches are free.

Ongoing Support
They haven't laid off any of the GFWL team. The head of the program was fired two years ago. Someone else took his place. There is no reason to believe that it will be shut down, as there have been no indications of it. In fact, all signs point to incorporating it with future versions of Windows. So really, support is guarenteed.


Pretty much every GFWL game has been cracked within 24 hours of hacker groups getting a copy of it. There is even a way to play those games online.

Yep, every game has been cracked, regardless of DRM. It happens. The SSA keys for GFWL games do prevent people from playing online. I haven't seen one cracked yet. It could still happen, but at this time it hasn't.

[flibitijibibo]

VNS is correct. A lot of what's possible with GFWL is wasted somewhat by the reason it's used in the first place: just plain laziness. One of the things that I was excited about, cross-platform play, was wasted in pretty much all of its forms, from cross-platform multiplayer to cross-platform storage. Both of these are available from both, but it often seems like Valve/Steam are the only ones trying.

That's admittedly not a fair comparison though. I'm sure if Microsoft could throw $100 million towards advertising GFWL they would. I suppose that can wait for Kinect PC support, yeah?

... Oh my. That just put a sick vision of the future in my head. Well, we'll see what happens. Who knows, maybe the Kinect demographic will push it forward in a positive way.

[Sir_Brizz]

That post is not relevant. In fact, it is the most uninformed one I've seen.
Guess you should have read yours, then... :rolleyes:
DRM
Multiple different forms exist with GFWL. It isn't an issue. It is either one gamertag with unlimited activation or multiple gamertags with limited activations set by the publisher. Fifteen is standard, but they control that.
So? The point in the referred post was that the many different forms of DRM that GFWL allows cause issues with GFWL itself in a variety of different ways. He only gave one example of the problems they have caused.
Patching
Patching could be better, by most people never have an issue with it. I did with Bulletstorm, but it was the patch itself and not GFWL. An updated patch came an hour later that fixed it.
I don't really know how you can defend patching on GFWL games.

You have to:
1) Launch the game
2) Wait forever for the patch to download during which time you cannot close the game
3) Close the game and wait forever for the patch to install
4) Restart your game and pray there are no more updates

TERRIBLE on PC.
Pay/Free DLC
Free DLC exists on both services. It is less restricted than people think. If DLC is going to be free, it just can't add achievements and be under a certain size. Batman AA and Bioshock 2 both have free DLC, with Bioshock 2 getting more on the way soon.
I don't see how that refutes what he said at all. His point was that Valve does not say "Your free DLC must be under this size and fall within these constraints". They stay out of it. It's just as restrictive as everyone says and thinks it is.
Missing Features
Sure, more features are nice. I'd love more. Nothing is 'missing' though. Oh, cloud saving? That has been supported for years. It is up to the developers to use it. Offline mode? GFWL is far superior to Steam offline, most games don't require any activation at all.
GFWL doesn't even HAVE cloud saving. Almost every game that runs on GFWL has to be activated online on the first use, and almost every GFWL has major problems, particularly with save games, when trying to play them in offline mode.

The "extra features" Steam has available are simply no-brainers for a middleware like this. You can't even really chat to people on GFWL while they are online, let alone while they are offline, through any interface other than "Send a Message", which is about as effective as emailing someone on your mobile phone.
Bugs
Like what? What was already listed? Most people don't have any issues. If there is an issue, it is something on the users end. Most of the people who DO have issues are using Windows XP, a now ten year old operating system.
Tons of people have issues. To ignore all the issues people have had is to step outside of reality. Congratulations if you haven't experienced them, you are one of the few. Anyone who has had the misfortune of owning more than a few GFWL games has more than likely had to deal with version mismatches and a plethora of other problems the GFWL client has had over the years. It may be better now than it was before, but it still has plenty of easily discoverable issues.
No Client
Shouldn't this be with missing features? There is a client. Not one that is useable for what most people want it to be, but it does exist.
There ISN'T a client, unless you mean the Games for Windows Marketplace app, which is not a Games for Windows Live client at all.
Overlay
So it doesn't have a web browser? Big deal. It is a nice thing to have, but it isn't exactly one of the most demanded things in the world. I'd rather play the game than browse the web.
It doesn't have virtually ANYTHING that Steam has in the overlay, or any other program that does in-game overlays for that matter. Being able to browse the web is a handy feature whether you use it frequently or not. More than once I've been stuck in a game and used the browser to look at a walkthrough, and more than once I've seen something interesting in a game and wanted to see if people were posting on forums about it and used the in-game browser to check without having to leave the game.

The point is that the GFWL interface is designed for a console experience STILL after all these years. No thought has gone into what features people would like to see or use at all in updates to the platform.
Price
GFWL is completely free to developers, just like Steamworks is. It has been for three years. Contrary to popular belief, even the patches are free.
GFWL "Gold" accounts went away, which is what I am sure you are referring to, however developers who use GFWL in their game are not getting the platform for free, I promise.
Ongoing Support
They haven't laid off any of the GFWL team. The head of the program was fired two years ago. Someone else took his place. There is no reason to believe that it will be shut down, as there have been no indications of it. In fact, all signs point to incorporating it with future versions of Windows. So really, support is guarenteed.
Is it really?

I also doubt that Microsoft will ever fully eclipse GFWL from use, however it IS clear that it is neither their focus nor a priority to them. The questions raised in the referred post are completely legitimate. When Microsoft first launched GFWL they essentially abandoned it and it wasn't updated for over a year. It's not really unreasonable to assume they could do that again without blinking. Xbox Live is their baby. Xbox Live is what they put on Windows Phone 7.
Yep, every game has been cracked, regardless of DRM. It happens. The SSA keys for GFWL games do prevent people from playing online. I haven't seen one cracked yet. It could still happen, but at this time it hasn't.
If you mean with people who have legitimate copies, you are right. However, you can play cracked GFWL games with other people who have them cracked all day and all night already.

[richard.eid]

DRM
Multiple different forms exist with GFWL. It isn't an issue. It is either one gamertag with unlimited activation or multiple gamertags with limited activations set by the publisher. Fifteen is standard, but they control that.
The problem, for consumers, with GFWL's DRM is exactly what you pointed out. There are multiple forms a publisher can choose to use. It's great for publishers, because they can protect their games in many different ways. But why should a gamer be burdened with this? I can appreciate having options when protecting your product, but every game on GFWL seems to use a different protection scheme, even if only slightly. For the gamer to have to keep track of this data for each game is probably the most consumer-unfriendly aspect of GFWL. And don't even get me started on trying to get the publisher to spill the beans on what all has been implemented. Need I remind anyone of the BioShock 2 release? With regards to DRM, Steam's policy is: activate online once, download any update that might be available and you're good to go. GFWL's DRM policy is usually muddied with uncertainty. Some games don't need to be activated, but as you'll notice, the current trend is moving closer towards Steam's policy as far as activation goes. How many GFWL games released in the past year didn't require online activation?

Steam wins in the DRM category, if only for the simplicity of the process. I know people can and will argue about the downsides of this, but I'm not trying to start a DRM war here. I think the focus of this thread is larger than the DRM aspects of each of these services.

Patching
Patching could be better, by most people never have an issue with it. I did with Bulletstorm, but it was the patch itself and not GFWL. An updated patch came an hour later that fixed it.
Patching wins by far on Steam. The only way you can get updates to your GFWL games is by starting the game. As soon as you launch Steam, game updates begin. If you tell Steam not to automatically update the game, then the update is downloaded the next time you launch the game...before the game launches. With Steam, you are never required to be in-game before you're notified of the update and then have to quit, let the update install then relaunch the game. If Steam is running in online mode, you can always be sure that when you launch a game it will be the absolute latest version that the publisher has provided to Valve.

Pay/Free DLC
Free DLC exists on both services. It is less restricted than people think. If DLC is going to be free, it just can't add achievements and be under a certain size. Batman AA and Bioshock 2 both have free DLC, with Bioshock 2 getting more on the way soon.
The enormous difference is that under no circumstances would Valve ever force a developer/publisher to charge for DLC. Their business model doesn't support that as they have proven to be committed to their partners. On the GFWL side, not necessarily with just DLC, there always seems to be a lot of finger-pointing.

Steam easily wins here as the decision is totally up to the developer/publisher. There will never be a case with Steamworks titles where PC users get DLC free while console(PS3) users have to pay.

Missing Features
Sure, more features are nice. I'd love more. Nothing is 'missing' though. Oh, cloud saving? That has been supported for years. It is up to the developers to use it. Offline mode? GFWL is far superior to Steam offline, most games don't require any activation at all.
How about being able to message your GFWL and 360 friends without actually firing up a game?

Cloud saving? It's been supported for years? How many games take advantage of it? Why aren't more developers using it? Steamworks' Cloud hasn't been around for very long. Do you know how many games support it? I can think of over ten right now, not including Valve games. I think there are quite a bit more than ten, though. It's great that GFWL has this feature, but what good is it if only a small number of games use it? If I buy a Steamworks game, there's a greater chance than not that it will support Cloud.

Offline Mode? What you're talking about is an offline profile. Or you can have an online profile. Or you can have an online account. Or you can have an offline account. Steam's take on this is offline or online. There's no confusion and no restrictions when you're in offline mode. In offline mode on GFWL you can't use saves you create in offline mode when you switch to online mode. Or was that going from an offline profile to an online profile? You can't get achievements in offline mode, either. Or was that an offline profile? The uncertainty of all this makes GFWL supremely inferior to Steam when discussing activation, if you will.

Backups. Steam wins here because it supports backups while GFWL relies on whatever you might have to make backups. Windows Backup, right? Because it comes with Windows and it's actually pretty good. But then that's technically a third-party solution whereas Steam has its own solution built right in. Users who aren't technically savvy can find a backup solution right in their Steam client. GFWL users can't and have to go through a process to select which files and folders they want to backup.

Forums Community. You can't post on GFWL forums to report issues...well, you can, but not very many others. And definitely nobody "new" as you've already pointed out. The sheer lack of posts also makes it difficult to find out if other users are experiencing the same thing. You then have to turn to other forums throughout the Internet to scour for any clues. So really I guess this means that the missing feature isn't actually a forum, because GFWL has that. The missing feature is a real community.

There's more, but this is sufficient enough to get the point across.

Bugs
Like what? What was already listed? Most people don't have any issues. If there is an issue, it is something on the users end. Most of the people who DO have issues are using Windows XP, a now ten year old operating system.
Most people don't have any issues? How can you quantify this? Is it because there aren't many reports of this on the GFWL forum? You can't report your issue if you can't post it.

If there's an issue it's always the user's fault? LOL, good one. I'm not one to say that most people know what they're doing. Quite the contrary. But to say it's always the user's fault is both ignorant and arrogant. And wildly inaccurate. As the guy pointed out in his well detailed post, GFWL isn't very router friendly. Unless you're going to be hosting servers, Steam doesn't require any special router configuration at all. So Steam doesn't require you to reconfigure your router but GFWL does so people have trouble playing GFWL games and this is the user's fault how?

And oh hey, most of the people having issues are on XP, another Microsoft created product? What does that matter anyway? How many users on Steam suffer issues because they're using XP instead of Vista or 7? I think the count is 0. Valve knows people are using XP still so they support it. Well, Microsoft still actually supports XP, just not very well if they're using GFWL. That's an inconsistency within their company that is inexcusable. It's kind of a dirty move, too, if you ask me. Why are they trying to sell Windows 7 through GFWL? Sure, Valve tries to sell Left 4 Dead 2 in Team Fortress 2 through the use of hats, but a user's experience doesn't suffer in Team Fortress 2 if they don't own Left 4 Dead 2. Microsoft, while trying to move people off of XP(which I can also appreciate), decides to leave in the dark the same people they say they're still supporting and also the same people that Valve takes great care of.

No Client
Shouldn't this be with missing features? There is a client. Not one that is useable for what most people want it to be, but it does exist.
It's not what people want. Why would people use it? Why exist at all? This is where the idea of democracy will really shine. As Microsoft falls more and more out of touch with PC gamers, those same gamers will flock to a service that provides them with the tools to meet their ever growing demands.

Again, if it's not what people want there isn't really a reason to use it.

Overlay
So it doesn't have a web browser? Big deal. It is a nice thing to have, but it isn't exactly one of the most demanded things in the world. I'd rather play the game than browse the web.
The problem is that's all GFWL's client pretty much it. It's only an overlay and doesn't offer anything in the way of usability while you're not playing a game. If they are serious about creating a real community out of it they need to do exactly the opposite of what they're doing now. Otherwise, their client will continue to be something that is tied to your games and not to any sort of non-existent community.

As far as having an in-game browser, this was one of the most requested features so Valve added it to the overlay. People use it. I use it a lot. It's not a necessary feature, but it sure helps me a lot. Even with a non-Steam game such as Minecraft I can look up blocks on Minepedia without having to minimize my game and open up a web browser. Again, not necessary, but it's a great feature that I love that GFWL's client doesn't offer.

Price
GFWL is completely free to developers, just like Steamworks is. It has been for three years. Contrary to popular belief, even the patches are free.
Not exactly. When you have to wait for everything to pass through QA you can't get your product to your customers as fast as you can on Steam. While it can be argued that QA is a good thing for gamers, can you also say that there haven't been any serious issues with GFWL games even after passing through QA? What about a release day update for Bulletstorm? If QA was so great, why did an update need to be released on release day?

Microsoft also requires that your retail package be branded with GFWL. I sorta wish Steamworks games did this, but then the focus isn't on the game. It would be like GFWL where the focus is on GFWL. Basically, you're giving up boxart space to give Microsoft free advertising.

In fact, according to Team Meat using Xbox Live actually cost them money as Microsoft didn't follow through on some advertising promises they had made to those devs. Imagine how much more they would have lost if they had gone full-on Xbox Live/GFWL.

On Steam, the focus of your game is your game and getting it to as many people as possible.

Ongoing Support
They haven't laid off any of the GFWL team. The head of the program was fired two years ago. Someone else took his place. There is no reason to believe that it will be shut down, as there have been no indications of it. In fact, all signs point to incorporating it with future versions of Windows. So really, support is guarenteed.
Ongoing support like MSN Music where you lost access to all the music you'd previously purchased? We have every reason to believe GFWL could be shut down if Microsoft decides it doesn't fit into their ever-changing vision. Gaming and games are the focus of Steam, so we're definitely sure that ongoing support is a guarantee. The same, however, can definitely not be said about Microsoft.

The poster of that NeoGAF...post...outlined the reasons he believed Steam to be a better choice for both consumers and developers than GFWL. In a weird way, your response to that post did the same thing.

[VividNinjaScar]

@Sir_Brizz
DRM
-It isn't an issue. No more than buying a game that you didn't know had Steamworks requiring you to register is an issue.

Patching
-Did I not say it could be better? What it is is better than manually doing it. Alt+tab and browse the web if you are so impatient.

Pay/Free DLC
-No. DLC can still be free on either service. It might be easier for one or the other, but again, it is NOT an issue. On the flip side Valve is trying to encourage microtransactions with Steamworks.

-Missing Features
-Yes it does. http://videogamesrepublic.com/?p=869
-Playing games offline works flawlessly. Even if you were online and get kicked offline during the game, it has always worked.
-You can send messages. Not as good as chat, I agree. I'm not debating that.

Bugs
-It doesn't matter what it was. Steam had far more issues than GFWL did when it launched. Now it works for most people, just like GFWL does.

No Client
-That IS the client. Just like the steam client is... a marketplace. Steam's client just has the features of the overlay built in with it.

Overlay
-So, again, it doesn't have a web browser?
-No, the first version of the interface was. The one it has now is not. The one now is designed for the keyboard and mouse, but works just as well for controllers.

Price
-http://www.develop-online.net/news/30211/Games-for-Windows-Live-now-free-to-developers

Ongoing Support
-Yes.

Piracy
-The only way to play pirated games that use SSA online is using a VPN and LAN.

@Richard
DRM
-Same thing

Patching
-I said it could be better, but yes Steam is better in patching at the moment

Pay/Free DLC
-No one forces anyone to charge for their DLC. Microsoft just enforces guidelines.

Missing Features
-Cloud
--Blame Developers
-Offline Mode
--GFWL is better in this aspect. Offline profile don't require activation, but you can't go online or earn achievements. Offline mode is when you have an online profile but do not have access to the internet. Offline mode will still allow you to earn achievements for all games except Halo 2. You also have access to all of your saves and can continue to save without issues, despite what people say. Transition from online to offline, meaning losing your connection, is seamless.
-Backups
--Okay, I guess you win this one by default
-Fourms
--Try again. I think they fixed the forum issue now.

Bugs
-I didn't say it was the users fault, I said it was an issue on their end. Most of the time, it has to do with XP or not having the proper ports open.
-XP is a ten year old system. It is ancient in terms of computing. GFWL wasn't even intended to be on XP to being with. It was ported over later.

No Client
-What is your point here?

Overlay
-So you can attach Steam's overlay to games that have nothing to do with Steam. Could be handy to those that want it, I agree.

Price
-QA has nothing to do with price.
-Patches happen when games launch all the time.
-Team Meat complained because they didn't get the first slot on XBL. It didn't cost them any money.

[richard.eid]

@Richard
DRM
-Same thing
Same thing as what? As the old days where it's still completely unfriendly? You can't even revoke activations.

Pay/Free DLC
-No one forces anyone to charge for their DLC. Microsoft just enforces guidelines.
What? Valve disagrees: http://www.techspot.com/news/36141-valve-forced-to-charge-for-xbox-360-dlc.html

Missing Features
-Cloud
--Blame Developers
2K used Steam Cloud with Civ 5 but not GFWL Cloud with BioShock 2, which was released six or so months prior. Why is this? You can blame developers, but there has to be some underlying reason they aren't taking advantage of it.

-Offline Mode
--GFWL is better in this aspect. Offline profile don't require activation, but you can't go online or earn achievements. Offline mode is when you have an online profile but do not have access to the internet. Offline mode will still allow you to earn achievements for all games except Halo 2. You also have access to all of your saves and can continue to save without issues, despite what people say. Transition from online to offline, meaning losing your connection, is seamless.
So you see how it's not better?

-Fourms
--Try again. I think they fixed the forum issue now.
Just did. Same Invalid User Credentials/Gamertag Not Found loop I've been stuck in since I first tried posting.

Bugs
-I didn't say it was the users fault, I said it was an issue on their end. Most of the time, it has to do with XP or not having the proper ports open.
-XP is a ten year old system. It is ancient in terms of computing. GFWL wasn't even intended to be on XP to being with. It was ported over later.
They support XP as the client can be installed on XP and it is also listed in their minimum requirements. If they can't support their own client on their own operating system even after saying that it's a supported operating system because they still support it but not quite so much at this branch of the company, they should drop support for it. Blaming client issues on XP is a lazy excuse to not offer proper support.

No Client
-What is your point here?
I was just reiterating the point you made in that it's not what people want. And having a client just for the sake of having one is counter-productive to PC gaming. If it offers no features that people who are forced into using it want, why force people to use it?

Price
-QA has nothing to do with price.
-Patches happen when games launch all the time.
-Team Meat complained because they didn't get the first slot on XBL. It didn't cost them any money.
-Wrong.
-Right. And proper QA means that you don't have to pay someone on release day to fix issues that weren't detected during QA. Patches on release day happen all the time. But why should you expect to issue a patch when Microsoft has a system in place to prevent such issues.
-So wrong. Advertising brings in revenue. People like to click on the first thing they see, not the fourth. By not getting top billing(which they were promised), they lost a sum of revenue that can't be calculated. But the game made more money for them on Steam in the first two weeks, where it was heavily promoted, than it has to this day on XBLA.

[Sir_Brizz]

DRM
-It isn't an issue. No more than buying a game that you didn't know had Steamworks requiring you to register is an issue.
It's more of an issue because the way Steamworks as DRM works is consistent every time.
Patching
-Did I not say it could be better? What it is is better than manually doing it. Alt+tab and browse the web if you are so impatient.
That's really not much of a solution to being "impatient" (do remember that these patches can be several hundred megabytes and we don't all have fiber internet connections here). Really, what it is is NOT better than manually doing it. It takes less time and is less intrusive to find a direct download of the latest update. It's definitely a mark in the CON column for GFWL.
Pay/Free DLC
-No. DLC can still be free on either service. It might be easier for one or the other, but again, it is NOT an issue. On the flip side Valve is trying to encourage microtransactions with Steamworks.
Okay... so ambiguously there is no difference. However, there is a large difference when you consider that, as one example, the UT3 2.0 patch and Titan Pack expansion are not available for Xbox 360 primarily because Microsoft would not allow them to make the update and DLC available for free.

Valve isn't really trying to encourage any particular business model, they are just trying to support lots of different kinds of business models. It's not like microtransactions are required.
-Missing Features
-Yes it does. http://videogamesrepublic.com/?p=869
Okay, I see they announced the feature. However, I can't find a single game that uses that feature, and one could argue what is the point of having a feature that nobody uses.
-Playing games offline works flawlessly. Even if you were online and get kicked offline during the game, it has always worked.
Ehhhh.... The problem isn't losing your connection mid game and having it come back before you're done. We're talking about offline profiles here, not playing the game without the internet being connected (though I'm sure that causes lots of problems, too).
Bugs
-It doesn't matter what it was. Steam had far more issues than GFWL did when it launched. Now it works for most people, just like GFWL does.
I really don't know that I would say "far more issues". Also, keep in mind that Steam launched several years before GFWL did :p
No Client
-That IS the client. Just like the steam client is... a marketplace. Steam's client just has the features of the overlay built in with it.
Steam is primarily a games catalog with a store attached to it. The GFWL "client" is a marketplace with a way to download your games and nothing else.
Overlay
-So, again, it doesn't have a web browser?
-No, the first version of the interface was. The one it has now is not. The one now is designed for the keyboard and mouse, but works just as well for controllers.
It doesn't have a lot of things, the lack of the web browser is just the most apparent.

It may "work" with a keyboard and mouse, but the GFWL interface is pretty much identical to the way it was BEFORE they supposedly made it better for PC gamers aside from some graphical changes and moving a few buttons around. The problem is that the design of LIVE in general is built around what works for the Xbox 360. Any other feature is secondary to that goal.
Price
-http://www.develop-online.net/news/30211/Games-for-Windows-Live-now-free-to-developers
That's great, but it's from 2008.

http://www.gamesforwindows.com/en-CA/About/Information-for-Developers/

This page mentions nothing about it being free to use, and Microsoft has to approve you to develop with it anyway. The reality is that, aside from a few stragglers, nobody is really using GFWL except for people porting games from the 360. Those people are already being charged to do the Xbox Live integration.
Piracy
-The only way to play pirated games that use SSA online is using a VPN and LAN.
No.

Anyway, the whole reason I'm refuting your (generally) poor points is that you claimed the post on NeoGAF was "not relevant" and "the most uninformed one I've seen". In fact, the post IS relevant, and is as informed as you or I have been.

[Issus_C]

My major gripes with GFWL are the following:

Having a single username. My username changes from time to time and I don't want to be bound to a single one for the entirety of my gaming career.

The DLC unlocking/download. When I first ran bulletstorm I had to open and close the game at least four times before I even tried to start the campaign. Once to update the game (this would have been automatic on steam), once to find my password details, once to download the limited edition, and finally once to get the limited edition content to work (it didn't install properly the first time).

The whole thing just doesn't function well IMO, friends lists and other features just aren't where I'd expect them to be.


EDIT:

Oh, and the fact that when I lose connection to GFWL I get kicked out of multiplayer and a screen pops up to tell me which I then have to close. At least with steam it'll keep me in the game (provided of course that it's just the steam connection and not my connection as a whle).

[Alienware Gamer]

How's the 2011 lineup looking for GFWL?

And going on about preventing piracy seems pointless. All DRM schemes in the past have been cracked. There's no reason to believe that GFWL won't eventually meet the same fate as the countless number of other preventative measures that have been cracked. Come back and let me know when GFWL has protected a game for 422 days like Starforce did for Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory. Touche !!!! come back to me when a single GFWL game which uses SSA is cracked & has playable online functionality & last time I did the math Sept 2009 is way more than 422 days (when Red Faction Guerrilla first used SSA). There are not any SSA enabled GFWL games which are cracked or ever will be just deal with that fact I know its hard but GFWL + SSA is the best DRM on PC to date so if anything it will expand not contract like you want it to!

2011 GFWL Lineup sure you want it you got it:

F1 2011 (due Sept)
Dirt3 (due in early May)
Fable 3 (due in early May same day as Witcher2 which is crazy!))
AOE Online (free to play & fully supports GFWL as well)
Flight Unlimited 2011
Crash Time 4 (available in Germany since Dec 2010)
Operation Flashpoint Red River (coming out next month)
LEGO POTC (due May)
Street Fighter 4 AE (rumoured for late summer but unconfirmed even though Capcom as usual are being vague about its existence!)
Section 8 Prejudice

There are probably another 10 or so unannounced as well which are due this year. So its no better or worse than Steam really & neither service is perfect but the stange thing is gamers who like GFWL do not pretend for an instant its perfect yet Steamworks supporters do.................

[Chapa9dj]

Touche !!!! come back to me when a single GFWL game which uses SSA is cracked & has playable online functionality & last time I did the math Sept 2009 is way more than 422 days (when Red Faction Guerrilla first used SSA). There are not any SSA enabled GFWL games which are cracked or ever will be just deal with that fact I know its hard but GFWL + SSA is the best DRM on PC to date so if anything it will expand not contract like you want it to!

2011 GFWL Lineup sure you want it you got it:

F1 2011 (due Sept)
Dirt3 (due in early May)
Fable 3 (due in early May same day as Witcher2 which is crazy!))
AOE Online (free to play & fully supports GFWL as well)
Flight Unlimited 2011
Crash Time 4 (available in Germany since Dec 2010)
Operation Flashpoint Red River (coming out next month)
LEGO POTC (due May)
Street Fighter 4 AE (rumoured for late summer but unconfirmed even though Capcom as usual are being vague about its existence!)
Section 8 Prejudice

There are probably another 10 or so unannounced as well which are due this year. So its no better or worse than Steam really & neither service is perfect but the stange thing is gamers who like GFWL do not pretend for an instant its perfect yet Steamworks supporters do.................

Laughable lineup.
The only one i would prick from there is DiRT3, all the others are meh.
Glad that all the games that i like are using Steamworks, the way it obviously should be.
Only the lazy companies or the ones in need of extra cash are staying with M$.

[richard.eid]

There are not any SSA enabled GFWL games which are cracked or ever will be just deal with that fact I know its hard but GFWL + SSA is the best DRM on PC to date so if anything it will expand not contract like you want it to!
The most recent example I can think of, Bulletstorm, disagrees. I believe most, if not all, of these games also disagree:

http://forums.gamesforwindows.com/t/16062.aspx

I can name even more Steamworks titles that have been cracked. And I don't want GFWL to "contract". I just want it to be better for gamers.

There are probably another 10 or so unannounced as well which are due this year. So its no better or worse than Steam really & neither service is perfect but the stange thing is gamers who like GFWL do not pretend for an instant its perfect yet Steamworks supporters do.................
Wow, imagine how many unannounced Steamworks titles there are. Also, which one is true?:

GFWL + SSA is the best DRM on PC
its no better or worse than Steam

It's ironic that as GFWL has moved closer towards a Steamworks-like policy on DRM, more and more people are singing its praises. And nobody is saying Steamworks is perfect. What most of us are saying is that it's a better option for gamers than GFWL. You can check out my previous posts in this thread to find out why I think this is. If my posts are tl;dr, the summary is that Steamworks offers more back to the gamer than does GFWL.

[Alienware Gamer]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/108197-Valve-Unveils-Hardware-Based-Steam-Security

Incase all you rabid Steamworks fans were thinking just how perfect your beloved Steamworks is/was ;)

[richard.eid]

Not sure what your point exactly is, but as I've stated plenty of times now...nobody is claiming Steamworks to be perfect.

Also, what you decided to point out was yet another feature that adds value to Steam. Does GFWL offer account protection such as this? Do you understand what Steam Guard is? If you're scared of Big Brother watching you, realize that this is an opt-in service. It won't be enabled by default. It'll be an option that we'll all have to increase account security. Just like e-mail verification. It's there if you want to use it, but nobody will force you to.

I can explain this more in detail if you'd like, but that article you linked to but didn't comprehend was pretty clear on what Steam Guard is.

[3Dog]

let me tell you something about shatty GFWL

first of all, you can't set the language of the client. in germany, you're stuck with german, and that's it.

but it gets even better.

i order retail Dead Rising 2 from UK, install it, play it. then, free DLC gets out. but no no no, not for me. my region is detected as germany, hence 80% content of GFWL are blocked.

the free DLCs THAT I AM ENTITLED TO AS A BUYER are held from me. bravo, microsoft. bravo.

only chance to use GFWL in germany in a way remotely as good as steam is to follow an insane procedure as this:
0. to ensure the GFWL client is english, have ultimate or english win 7
1. enable hotspotshield for fake american ip
2. go to xbox live (funny, same account for gfwl) and set up account with region US (you might wanna register fake mail address first)
3. edit billing information to fake american street address
4. now install your game disk, make sure hotspotshield is up
5. enter the credentials of your new fake account
6. your game will be forever bound to your american account and should show all entitlements and available DLCs, which you can download for days through hotspotshield at insanely low speeds.

THIS, GENTLEMEN, IS WHY GFWL SUCKS INFINITELY COMPARED TO STEAM.
here, i buy UK retail disk, pop up hotspotshield only for COD:BO, else the key ensures my UK retail entitlement. FRACKING done and language is selectable!!!

[NaOHSpree]

The only thing I like about it is that you get something in return for achievements(gamerscore), but yea I know that doesn't mean anything but its still nice to me having some GS!

[driedtears]

GFWL suck so hard i have no words to describe.
Heres what happened to my brother and me.

For him:
Everything was beautiful and went fine until the ♥♥♥♥ing GFWL overlay appeared. He typed his account and... SURPRISE !
"You are in an unsupported region, please sign in with a different account".
He created a new account then:
"Your cd-key is being used by another account, please insert a new one"

He just lost $60 bucks... And he bought the original game.
How frustrating is this?

For me: I had to check that my account region wasnt anywhere unsupported. After that i didnt make the same mistake and was ready to play.

[Bozebo]

Everything was beautiful and went fine until the ♥♥♥♥ing GFWL overlay appeared. He typed his account and... SURPRISE !
"You are in an unsupported region, please sign in with a different account".
He created a new account then:
"Your cd-key is being used by another account, please insert a new one"

ouch :(

they should do something to sort that out, its obviously a bug or implementation flaw (which er, gfwl is full of)

[PycBouH]

That's why you have to create US, UK or Australian account from the very beginning.

[foadiron]

Not Australian: every 18-rated game is banned over there.

[richard.eid]

That's why you have to create US, UK or Australian account from the very beginning.

That's why you shouldn't be marketed and sold a product where you have to violate the GFWL terms of use just to play your game. I can accept regional restrictions. But if regional restrictions are put into place for a given product then it should never even be able to be purchased in those regions where it is restricted. If you'd like to import the game at your own risk then whatever, I guess.

But I don't think regional restrictions are inherently evil, only that games are sold in places where a restriction exists.

[fade2999]

Games for america live

[fade2999]

why? because hammer legion members and thieves don't like it? It's the only DRM that stops thieves from using the game before release, and completely stoops them from multiplayer afterwards (stuff no other drm does).

LIVE made it a worthy purchase on PC. If it wasn't LIVE, I would've gotten it on Xbox 360 (Since that would've been the overall better version).

Microsoft president and CEO is that you?

You do realize that GFWL doesn't even work in most countries right?

[PycBouH]

It's bigger than GfWL. I'm a proud owner of 360, and it was essential for me to create US account. GfWL just followed that. Of course it's idiotic way to treat your customers, I'm not defending that.

Though, I believe it's possible to play with an offline account even if this key is already in use.

[treboruk]

GFWL suck. That's all there is to it.

Steam is the best out of the two....

[Lim214]

Games that failed me upon installing with GFWL:
Red Faction Guerrilla
GTA 4
Batman: Arkham Asylum
Gears of War
Resident Evil 5

All of these games had some file conflict going on with something inside GFWL and would put GFWL into an infinite loop of "update GFWL or we won't let you play your game, oh look it's already updated, but update it any way..." The problem was with GFWL hoisting bad versions of itself on me with each new game install, and not allowing me the option to not install the new version.

Admittedly things cleared up a lot when I got a new PC with Windows 7. That seemed to clear up all the problems I'd been having with GFWL straight away! Amazing how buying an overpriced MicroScam OS that was in fact the finished working version of the OS I'd just had cleared things up... and yet all my Steam games worked and ran just fine otherwise.

Games that have failed me upon installing with only Steam:



Oh look t that, that list is empty, weird.

[ynaught]

I can't stand GFWL either. Ruins games i think.

[Kleetus]

I've never had a problem with GFWL, and I own hundreds of games.

Only thing I hate are that the saves are encrypted and locked to your account.

BTW, it's a bit unfair to compare GFWL to Steam.

It took Steam many years to mature into what it is today, GFWL hasn't been around anywhere near as long.

However, it's Microsoft, so it wouldn't surprise me if they dropped it soon.

[ZeroSignal]

I'm tired of Live being in my PC games. It adds nothing to the experience except annoying immersion breaking pop ups that give me achievements that are completely worthless to me.

Live needs to stay on the xbox, where it belongs.

[Sir_Brizz]

I've never had a problem with GFWL, and I own hundreds of games.
Who cares how many games you have? How many GFWL games do you have? I have over a dozen and at least half of them have had "zero day gfwl patch" issues.
BTW, it's a bit unfair to compare GFWL to Steam.

It took Steam many years to mature into what it is today, GFWL hasn't been around anywhere near as long.
We all know Steam has been around for longer, but Steam had to develop into what it is today. Steam's competitors have a perfect example of what people like in a digital distribution platform and they choose not to compete with it. Plus, Microsoft has plenty of money. They could make GFWL a real competitor if they wanted to. The two programs occupy the same market.

[Kleetus]

Who cares how many games you have? How many GFWL games do you have? I have over a dozen and at least half of them have had "zero day gfwl patch" issues.

Bad luck for you.

I have well over a dozen, probably closer to two dozen, and have never had a single issue, ever.

[Sir_Brizz]

I'm glad you're so lucky. Unfortunately, there are lots of people that have the same problems I have had every time a GFWL game comes out. Just because you haven't had problems doesn't mean the system is not crap and should always be used.

[Kleetus]

I'm glad you're so lucky.

It has nothing to do with luck.

Unfortunately, there are lots of people that have the same problems I have had every time a GFWL game comes out.

And there are lots of people who have trouble with Steam or any other software.

The majority of the time, it's not the software's fault.

Just because you haven't had problems doesn't mean the system is not crap and should always be used.

Where exactly did I say "the system" was good or crap, or that it should always be used?

[Sir_Brizz]

It has nothing to do with luck.
I'm not really sure how you can definitively say that.
And there are lots of people who have trouble with Steam or any other software.
I have yet to hear of anyone who has had to completely uninstall Steam and reinstall it just to get it working properly. I have yet to hear of Steam having any of the problems GFWL has had. Unless you can provide some comparable examples, this point means nothing.
The majority of the time, it's not the software's fault.
Most of the problems I have had and seen others have with GFWL can all be blamed squarely on the software. I don't see how GFWLs inability to properly update itself in tons of cases can be blamed on the user.
Where exactly did I say "the system" was good or crap, or that it should always be used?
Where did you need to? I was simply pointing out that one person never having an issue with GFWL doesn't change the fact that lots of people have issues with it and that it is not a good PC middleware right now.

[VividNinjaScar]

I have yet to hear of anyone who has had to completely uninstall Steam and reinstall it just to get it working properly. I have yet to hear of Steam having any of the problems GFWL has had. Unless you can provide some comparable examples, this point means nothing.


Really? Many people have issues with .blob. Most of the time, they require a reinstall. If you are lucky, all you have to do is delete the .blob file.


Most of the problems I have had and seen others have with GFWL can all be blamed squarely on the software. I don't see how GFWLs inability to properly update itself in tons of cases can be blamed on the user.

Most of the issue are coming for people using a ten year old operating system, much worse than that one that isn't even kept up to date.

[Sir_Brizz]

Really? Many people have issues with .blob. Most of the time, they require a reinstall. If you are lucky, all you have to do is delete the .blob file.
I've heard of issues with the blob file, but I've never heard of anyone that had to uninstall and reinstall Steam to fix it (as opposed to deleting the Blob file and some of Steam's other registry files).
Most of the issue are coming for people using a ten year old operating system, much worse than that one that isn't even kept up to date.
I've seen this GFWL won't update properly issue on anything from XP to 7. The thing is, even if GFWL worked perfectly for how it is designed right now, it would still be a steaming pile of crap.

[VividNinjaScar]

I've heard of issues with the blob file, but I've never heard of anyone that had to uninstall and reinstall Steam to fix it (as opposed to deleting the Blob file and some of Steam's other registry files).



Doesn't matter what you've heard of. You won't take the other guys word for it, so why is yours any better?



I've seen this GFWL won't update properly issue on anything from XP to 7. The thing is, even if GFWL worked perfectly for how it is designed right now, it would still be a steaming pile of crap.

Oh, I see. Even if it worked PERFECTLY, it would still be a piece of crap? I guess there is no point in discussing this with you, considering you already made up your mind.

Most issues are with people using Windows XP, there is no denying that. The only issue I've seen with Vista/7 is the Sign-In Assistant failing to update. That isn't GFWL, it is Windows Live.

[Shifty_Pete]

Oh, I see. Even if it worked PERFECTLY, it would still be a piece of crap? I guess there is no point in discussing this with you, considering you already made up your mind.

You didn't read his post. He said even if it worked THE WAY IT WAS DESIGNED, it would still be crap, because of Microsoft's money-grabbing nature

[Dr.Jones]

Omg, i'm so disturbed that some people, minority i might add, thinks GFWL service is better than Steam, are you brain dead?

Can you join friends coop, multiplayer session with one click in GFWL?
Can you voice chat while gaming?
Can you browse servers while off game?
Can you have own communitys?
Can you buy games online, download, also DLC's?
And finaly steam is not microsoft which tells alot.

PS: If you are such GFWL fans, why posting this on Steam forum?

br.
Dr.Jones