Will we begin to see hardware VAC bans?

[Coalvayne]

The addition of Steam Guard indicates that Steam is now capable of recognizing a computer based on hardware. Is there any chance we will see hardware (in combination with some other method of recognizing a PC) VAC bans to eliminate reoccurring cheaters who purchase multiple copies of game when they are on sale?

[<Surfplays>]

They can just bypass HWID by reinstalling Windows and rebuy the copy again.

[Ettanin]

HW based bans is likely to cause errorneous bans, so i doubt it'll happen.

[Nekomancer]

Valve won't go this far, since that would punish the victims of hijacks unnecessarily.

[Verminus]

Valve won't go this far, since that would punish the victims of hijacks unnecessarily.

I don't see how. Unless the hijackers were able to steal the victim's computer as well as their account then it would be the hijackers computer receiving the hardware VAC ban, not the victim.

As long as HWIDs weren't added to the ban list just by having a banned account used on them then it would punish the actual hackers and scammers way more than at current, and for everyone else it would be the same as it is now.

The only problem might be if you buy a used PC that had been banned.

[shresht93]

The only problem might be if you buy a used PC that had been banned.

Or even just a used CPU, or whatever part they use to ban.

Personally I'm against hardware-based bans.

[Karr-Man]

more than one person can share a PC, so it doesnt really seem a workable idea...

[slayvus]

Or even just a used CPU, or whatever part they use to ban.

Personally I'm against hardware-based bans.

Hardware IDs are generated based on ALL the hardware in the computer. One can change their hardware ID by just changing out their RAM or underclocking or overclocking their CPU.

[Coalvayne]

Hardware IDs are generated based on ALL the hardware in the computer. One can change their hardware ID by just changing out their RAM or underclocking or overclocking their CPU.

What if only an essential piece was used such as the Mobo. Is their some way they could change the ID through tweaks?

Either way I'm all for hardware VAC's. Anything to make the process harder for reoccurring hackers.

[CTRL ALT DEL !]

Imagine buying a used videocard/cpu/motherboard/hdd and then getting vac banned for using it. Not going to happen.

[Lister]

No... i think the current implemented system is perfectly fine

[ineedalifetoday]

Hardware based VAC bans would have some serious consequences.

Example - Two brothers that share a computer:

John Doe - a person that always follows the rules, never doing anything that would raise an eyebrow of the people that run VAC.

Walter Doe - a person that is always doing stuff that causes a VAC ban.

Now, You do a "Hardware VAC ban", John Doe will not be able to play on the computer that he has to share with Walter Doe.

[Matt]

Why would they want to ban hardware? That seems silly for a company in the business of selling hardware.

[Coalvayne]

Hardware based VAC bans would have some serious consequences.

Example - Two brothers that share a computer:

John Doe - a person that always follows the rules, never doing anything that would raise an eyebrow of the people that run VAC.

Walter Doe - a person that is always doing stuff that causes a VAC ban.

Now, You do a "Hardware VAC ban", John Doe will not be able to play on the computer that he has to share with Walter Doe.

I don't think this is a likely issue though. First off, who shares a PC with their brother and second, those who do that, who would have separate accounts? Granted one person would be out of luck but how many people could possibly be affected by this?
Why would they want to ban hardware? That seems silly for a company in the business of selling hardware.

I'm assuming you met to say software the second time (referring to Steam) to which I have to say, yes Steam might lose some reselling of games but I myself and many others have avoided games in the first place do to the abundance of reported hackers. That's a lot more lost sales then the repeat offenders would ever generate.

Imagine buying a used videocard/cpu/motherboard/hdd and then getting vac banned for using it. Not going to happen.

This isn't how I suspect it would be implemented though. When a steam profile is VACed Steam would take down the system configuration of 2 or more hardware ID parts that in conjunction would no longer allow the VACed games to be ran on that system. For instance if someone else logged into that PC on there Steam account they would NOT be VACed, they simply wouldn't be able to play the VACed game from the other account either. If the PC were dismantled or sold in parts the individual parts would work for anyone on their own home PC and they could play.

As I said they could take down the mobo hardware ID and some other component. As long as the mobo remains though the games continue to not work on that PC. If hackers had to rebuild a complete system every time they we're VACed I would think we would see a lot less of them.

[Ecoste]

I dont think people in internet cafes would be happy. One guy logs into his steam, cheats. And then the whole computer is steam banned. Im against, besides steam doesnt want that either, more money you see. People get vacced and buy the game again. Besides the HWID can be changed.

[CTRL ALT DEL !]

This isn't how I suspect it would be implemented though. When a steam profile is VACed Steam would take down the system configuration of 2 or more hardware ID parts that in conjunction would no longer allow the VACed games to be ran on that system. For instance if someone else logged into that PC on there Steam account they would NOT be VACed, they simply wouldn't be able to play the VACed game from the other account either. If the PC were dismantled or sold in parts the individual parts would work for anyone on their own home PC and they could play.

As I said they could take down the mobo hardware ID and some other component. As long as the mobo remains though the games continue to not work on that PC. If hackers had to rebuild a complete system every time they we're VACed I would think we would see a lot less of them.

So steam users can't lend a PC for fear of it getting banned?

Your brother can get you banned on your PC using a free deathmatch account.

Used gaming machines loose lots of value.

Steam gets blamed for all these issues.

[Jagged Tooth]

How are you going to determine it's the same hardware?

MAC address can be changed
CPUID can be changed
HDD serial can be changed
Motherboard serial can be changed

[BSPiotr]

How are you going to determine it's the same hardware?

MAC address can be changed
CPUID can be changed
HDD serial can be changed
Motherboard serial can be changed

There's even Spoofers out there, for the things you can't change.
I don't see this being a realistic solution to cheating.

[Coalvayne]

How are you going to determine it's the same hardware?

MAC address can be changed
CPUID can be changed
HDD serial can be changed
Motherboard serial can be changed

Doesn't matter if the hacker isn't even aware of what hardware is locked. Even if all these things can be changed they have to determine what NEEDS to be changed first, generate a new hardware hash that may force a new windows instillation/activation to boot.

Not to mention the hacker may not be aware of this information at all (most "hackers" are just paying for the programs from somewhere else) which would still greatly reduce the number of hackers. And even the ones who are may be deterred by the continues hassle even further reducing the number of cheaters.

[Jagged Tooth]

Doesn't matter if the hacker isn't even aware of what hardware is locked. Even if all these things can be changed they have to determine what NEEDS to be changed first, generate a new hardware hash that may force a new windows instillation/activation to boot.

Not to mention the hacker may not be aware of this information at all (most "hackers" are just paying for the programs from somewhere else) which would still greatly reduce the number of hackers. And even the ones who are may be deterred by the continues hassle even further reducing the number of cheaters.

What's to stop the people making the cheats to just add these features? Then they can just add the extra word "Hardware VAC proof".

As for the Windows issue, I just don't see that many cheaters paying for Windows anyway.

[mcilrain]

Almost as stupid as banning based on IP, almost, but not quite.

I am disappoint :(

[Coalvayne]

What's to stop the people making the cheats to just add these features? Then they can just add the extra word "Hardware VAC proof".

As for the Windows issue, I just don't see that many cheaters paying for Windows anyway.

Regardless of if they pay for it, being forced to install a new copy of Windows every time would be another big annoyance that could deter repeat offenders.

As for programing there own spoofers, it requires a lot more know how of system registry files and creates more problems for the coders.

ALL of this is besides the point however. If Hardware ID bans can stop reoccurring hackers then why not do it? Even if some get by with great inconveniences, many will be left with an unworkable system for the games they initially cheated on. I'm looking for a response from a Valve employee hopefully. =)

[DarkLite123]

Regardless of if they pay for it, being forced to install a new copy of Windows every time would be another big annoyance that could deter repeat offenders.

As for programing there own spoofers, it requires a lot more know how of system registry files and creates more problems for the coders.

ALL of this is besides the point however. If Hardware ID bans can stop reoccurring hackers then why not do it? Even if some get by with great inconveniences, many will be left with an unworkable system for the games they initially cheated on. I'm looking for a response from a Valve employee hopefully. =)

It will stop coders for the thirty seconds required to add their PB hardware spoofers to their VAC hacks, it's not really significant :/

[blackmustang58]

No way, PC isn't same as console.

If you want hardware-based ban for cheaters then get gaming console like Xbox 360 or PS3.

Current VAC is working fine and hackers waste their money for buy games again.

[ineedalifetoday]

I don't think this is a likely issue though. First off, who shares a PC with their brother and second, those who do that, who would have separate accounts? Granted one person would be out of luck but how many people could possibly be affected by this?

The gravity of "Hardware VAC bans" can be extremely serious.

Banning a person ( Walter Doe, in my previous post) from being able to play on VAC server(s) just because he/she shares the computer with a person ( John Doe, in my other post) that triggered the "Hardware VAC ban" is totally uncalled for.

Even if it effects a small portion of the Steam community, I see it as being uncalled for.

In my opinion, this is why a "Hardware VAC ban" system has not been implemented. The current VAC system is doing just fine.


Previous post - http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21406693&postcount=12

[Amander]

HWIDs are spoofable. Just run a program before running Steam to change some ID and viola, ban void. On the other hand, too many legit players might suffer.

So scrap it! If you take cheating that personal, get a life.

[Coalvayne]

HWIDs are spoofable. Just run a program before running Steam to change some ID and viola, ban void. On the other hand, too many legit players might suffer.

How would any legit players suffer?


So scrap it! If you take cheating that personal, get a life.
It has nothing to do with how I take to cheaters and hackers, simply that VAC can reduce there numbers if they were to implement this. So far no one has given me a reason NOT to.

[Amander]

How would any legit players suffer?
Read the thread. Someone else causing a ban for someone innocent or someone buying used hardware.

It has nothing to do with how I take to cheaters and hackers, simply that VAC can reduce there numbers if they were to implement this. So far no one has given me a reason NOT to.Nope, VAC would not. Read my part about hardware IDs being spoofable. And read the part about innocent people suffering.

[Coalvayne]

Read the thread. Someone else causing a ban for someone innocent or someone buying used hardware.
Nope, VAC would not. Read my part about hardware IDs being spoofable. And read the part about innocent people suffering.

Read my part about how hardware ID bans work and the issues with changing your HWID.

Once again. There's no reason not to implement this so far as I can see. If more hackers will be kept out permanently then what's the issue?

[DarkLite123]

Read my part about how hardware ID bans work and the issues with changing your HWID.

Once again. There's no reason not to implement this so far as I can see. If more hackers will be kept out permanently then what's the issue?

Honestly, it wouldn't work well. Hackers already spoof all these things to get past PB's hardware bans, so they've already got tools that deal with this.

[Amander]

Read my part about how hardware ID bans work and the issues with changing your HWID.

Once again. There's no reason not to implement this so far as I can see. If more hackers will be kept out permanently then what's the issue?Forget it. There's not that much issue with changing IDs and you still didn't read the part about innocent people.

[Jengo]

Didn't take the time to read through the thread, sorry....

But really?

Hardware bans on a Steam account which can login and play from any PC with an Internet connection? Good luck with that. No way that's gonna happen. It would be pointless.

[DEAGLITE]

They can just bypass HWID by reinstalling Windows and rebuy the copy again.

As soon as you log into your account, valve should automatically start scanning for suspect files. You wouldnt even have to be in a game to get banned, if they are on your system, it should guid ban the moment a hack is detected, no delay. Also, even if they have the hack on a usb, the ram processes will create a process from the hacking program (after all, all programs use up memory and create a process right), and the id for the ram will get banned.

Also, valve should be able to have all software ids from all comps that have signed up steam accounts disclosed to them, and put a system in place to detecet abnormal changes to the id's (if changing RAM id is even possible).


Thats how valve catch you. They check for changing of the dll's. >AND RAM PROCESSES< The system cross references your programs with ram processes and certian actions in the game. If the vac system matches the file with the suspect ram process, and ties it to the game, YOUR DONE. If they find programs that can be used to hack in the game, YA SCREWED.


Cheating is for low-lives that cant enjoy the game for what it is.

[Alkpaz2]

No there will NOT be any hardware bans, since Valve makes a killing off cheaters.. :P

Ex: cheater hacks.. he gets banned, he buys another account, cheats again, he gets banned again, buys another account, does this again, and again and again, until he finally learns "the game" and doesn't cheat, or cheats in a non-VAC game...

Question is how many copies of games did this person buy? 2?3?4? that is all profit from one cheater.. multiply that times a few thousand and you make BANK!

If they were to implement hardware bans, they (Valve, and other companies) would LOOSE that profit. So, it is in their best interest to keep the status quo.

I would prefer hardware bans myself, but I don't see this happening EVER!

[ubersquiz]

Why would they want to ban hardware? That seems silly for a company in the business of selling hardware.

Valve sells hardware now?
This is news to me.....

[Sikaris]

As soon as you log into your account, valve should automatically start scanning for suspect files. You wouldnt even have to be in a game to get banned, if they are on your system, it should guid ban the moment a hack is detected, no delay.

WHAT?
Okay, first of all, if Valve ever wanted to have Steam constantly wasting my computer's resources scanning for hacks it will never find, my time with Steam would be over.
Second, the delay makes it more difficult for hackers to figure out which hack in particular got them banned, prevents the word getting out about a discovered hack before everybody using it can quickly get rid of it. Removing the delay would hurt VAC significantly.

[Amander]

WHAT?
Okay, first of all, if Valve ever wanted to have Steam constantly wasting my computer's resources scanning for hacks it will never find, my time with Steam would be over.
Calm down. Some people just take cheating way too personal, it's best not to take those seriously.

[_Budweiser_]

As soon as you connect to a VAC-secured server, VAC scans memory and file integrity.
-

Anywaym, the whole concept of Hardware bans is
a) impractical - for many reasons already mentioned
b) lots of effort and no gain
c) unnecessary, the urrent system works
d) unfair and therefor potentially damaging.