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x7string420x
04-22-2011, 05:48 PM
Sooooo, in BF2 the jets are kinda OP. If a seasoned pilot is behind the stick, they're pretty much unstoppable.

How do you think DICE is going to balance this in BF3 MP?

Slow them down?

Better AA?

and... GO

Parliamentarian
04-22-2011, 05:59 PM
They're only unstoppable against infantry who suck. If you're a good pilot, you can dogfight them down. If you're a good tank driver, you can blast them out of the sky from the ground. If you're not a failure at infanty, you can get on any number of AA guns or use LAWs.

If you want to take down a jet with a pistol, you're in the wrong game series.

0ddity
04-22-2011, 06:09 PM
If they do it like 1942, with effective AA in all the uncaps, that would be enough for me. Maybe some kind of infantry based heat seeking AA would be cool too, like a Stinger.

brphoenix
04-22-2011, 06:09 PM
If you want to take down a jet with a pistol, you're in the wrong game series.

How awesome would THAT be, though? :)

Razoride
04-22-2011, 06:15 PM
Let's talk about jets baby

Let's talk about all the good things
And the bad things that may be
Let's talk about jets
Let's talk about jets
Let's talk about jets
Let's talk about jets

:o

Parliamentarian
04-22-2011, 06:39 PM
How awesome would THAT be, though? :)

And actually, I should have worded that differently, because technically you CAN bring down a jet with a pistol... By shooting the pilot. :cool:

Jackal Turner
04-22-2011, 06:46 PM
And actually, I should have worded that differently, because technically you CAN bring down a jet with a pistol... By shooting the pilot. :cool:

Not while he is in the jet you can't. Almost all modern jets have the toughest bullet proof glass you could possibly find.

So unless you are his co-pilot, you won't be shooting him with a pistol while he is in the air, which means you won't be bringing him down.

Parliamentarian
04-22-2011, 06:48 PM
Not while he is in the jet you can't. Almost all modern jets have the toughest bullet proof glass you could possibly find.

So unless you are his co-pilot, you won't be shooting him with a pistol while he is in the air, which means you won't be bringing him down.

We're not talking about real life here. We're talking about a video game.

I wish I could find that awesome video of these guys dogfighting, keep missing, so finally one guy bails out, snipes the other pilot, and then gets back into his own jet before hitting the ground, but I've had no luck in finding it again to show my friends IRL :(

lilbabycat
04-22-2011, 07:00 PM
They're only unstoppable against infantry who suck. If you're a good pilot, you can dogfight them down. If you're a good tank driver, you can blast them out of the sky from the ground. If you're not a failure at infanty, you can get on any number of AA guns or use LAWs.

If you want to take down a jet with a pistol, you're in the wrong game series.

Hate to say it but IRL you can take down a jet with a pistol if you shot it in the right places... I know this isn't "the realism discussion", but I'm saying it is possible. Helicopters too, even attack ones.

I'd say, if they made the hitboxes for the jets "correct" and say left like a weak area that would be extremely hard to hit unless the jet was stationary; that would be completely fair...and of course make for some fun Pistol vs Jet matches.

Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLUGBujl2-0

Parliamentarian
04-22-2011, 07:10 PM
Hate to say it but IRL you can take down a jet with a pistol if you shot it in the right places... I know this isn't "the realism discussion", but I'm saying it is possible. Helicopters too, even attack ones.

That would be a serious design flaw if small arms could destroy it. The kinda flaw only seen in the wars among the stars. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TZPcHDwOIo)

But I'm sure YOU could do it. Didn't you used to bullseye womp rats in your T-16 back home? ;)

H3adCas3z
04-22-2011, 07:17 PM
How awesome would THAT be, though? :)

Johnny, you see me take down that chopper with my duel .22's!?

Let's talk about jets baby

Let's talk about all the good things
And the bad things that may be
Let's talk about jets
Let's talk about jets
Let's talk about jets
Let's talk about jets

:o

90's throwback... I like it :)

flarp
04-23-2011, 12:35 AM
Probably by placing 15 different types of AA weapons every 3 feet like they did in BC2.

It's so ridiculous in BC2, that helicopters are downright useless.

Also if jets can be shout out of the sky by infantry (unless they have an AA capable weapon) or tanks, then i am going to be very disappointed in DICE...

Jackal Turner
04-23-2011, 12:37 AM
That would be a serious design flaw if small arms could destroy it. The kinda flaw only seen in the wars among the stars. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TZPcHDwOIo)

But I'm sure YOU could do it. Didn't you used to bullseye womp rats in your T-16 back home? ;)

+1 Rep to you good sir!

Zefar
04-23-2011, 12:55 AM
They're only unstoppable against infantry who suck. If you're a good pilot, you can dogfight them down. If you're a good tank driver, you can blast them out of the sky from the ground. If you're not a failure at infanty, you can get on any number of AA guns or use LAWs.

If you want to take down a jet with a pistol, you're in the wrong game series.

As a infantry in BF2 your options against jets where.

1: AA turrets that pilots can and will avoid and destroy a moment later. Thus leaving you quite dead if you stay in it. I've tried to get jets but the only thing they did was turbo away from my reach which was either up or away. Then came back and had a perfect fire on the AA turret.
2: AA tank. Granted this is probably the 2:nd best thing against jets but still it only appear on like one or two maps at the spawn or close to it. You could still be bombed to oblivion quite fast as well.
3: Tank. Well the fact that you're in a tank means that any Jet will go for you and they need to fly pretty low before you can actually hit them. They also fly around relative fast as well.
4: Best option to kill them is to be in the aircraft carrier turret and try to get the jet down. Sadly most jets will avoid the aircraft carrier most of the time due to this.

So no, Jets are just not easy to deal with and people who think that usually are delusional about it. They where Overpowered and the fact that Infantry only got so popular compared to any Jet map shows that.


DICE needs to give us AA stuff that would make flying more skillful and actually need more skill to stay alive.


flarp: Actually a map might have one or two Anti Air guns. They have in no way put them all over the place unless now you can provide proof of it. Which you won't.

If a chopper pilot picked Flares(Vehicle smoke) he could be up for quite some time before he's finally killed. As it was Tracers that helped a lot. Sadly most people didn't use them.

flarp
04-23-2011, 01:09 AM
flarp: Actually a map might have one or two Anti Air guns. They have in no way put them all over the place unless now you can provide proof of it. Which you won't.

If a chopper pilot picked Flares(Vehicle smoke) he could be up for quite some time before he's finally killed. As it was Tracers that helped a lot. Sadly most people didn't use them.

I dont suppose the the 10,000 mg turrets pointed at the sky count is that correct?

The moment a chopper lifts off the ground every single lmg, tank mg, mounted mg, tracer dart, etc is hurled towards the chopper. Upon which rounds violently toss the chopper around the sky and make impossible to control.

Last i checked, countermeasures such as flares are rather useless against bullets.

This could be remedied by either adding hellfire missiles and a TADS system so the helicopter can hover a few miles away and engage targets as in real life, or tone down the effects of mg fire against the helicopter.

Making them easy to shoot down doest necessarily imply it takes skill to fly one; instead the pilot has to constantly evade rather than do his job.

Helicopter and Jets are feared and devastating instruments of the battlefield, and this game should at least somewhat reflect that.

lilbabycat
04-23-2011, 09:08 AM
That would be a serious design flaw if small arms could destroy it.

But I'm sure YOU could do it. Didn't you used to bullseye womp rats in your T-16 back home? ;)

Army Helicopter Mechanic, IRL. If you know the right place to shoot you can take down anything.

For a jet its easy, right into the turbines. They can't handle very large debris.
For a helicopter, depends on the model.

The armor on either is much less than what movies would have you believe.

x7string420x
04-23-2011, 09:38 AM
Let's talk about jets baby

Let's talk about all the good things
And the bad things that may be
Let's talk about jets
Let's talk about jets
Let's talk about jets
Let's talk about jets

:o

You forgot

LETS TALK ABOUT YOU AND MEEEEEEEEEEE.

actually it's what I was thinking of when I made the title. Good eye, son. lol

ON TOPIC: Ayone trying to say the jet's aren't OP is delusional. They're probably the ones who like to stay in the jet the entire round in BF2 and ♥♥♥♥ the crap out of the other team. They will probably be the same people standing in line at the runway while the enemy team has all the flags on BF3.

Yes, you CAN take the jets down, after they completely dominate the entire map for about 5-10 minutes. I'd call that OP.

wonderboy2402
04-23-2011, 09:42 AM
I would think that DICE has heard the community outcry about planes. I wouldn't be surprised if you could count the ways of shooting down jets in BF3 on two hands... As in, there will be plenty of answers to downing jets in BF3.

ebevan91
04-23-2011, 10:13 AM
What BF2 needed, was longer ranged AA.

It is kinda lame that the jets and even choppers can kill the SAMs before the SAMs can even lock on. Like last night, I was playing on Daqing Oilfields, and the chopper's TV missile took me out while I was staring at the chopper, unable to do anything against it due to the short range of the AA.

x7string420x
04-23-2011, 10:20 AM
What BF2 needed, was longer ranged AA.

It is kinda lame that the jets and even choppers can kill the SAMs before the SAMs can even lock on. Like last night, I was playing on Daqing Oilfields, and the chopper's TV missile took me out while I was staring at the chopper, unable to do anything against it due to the short range of the AA.

I completely agree. And even if the jets came in range they would fly by so fast and spam flares so you couldn't lock on anyway. I only remember a very few times when I actually hit an air vehicle with the lock on AA. And it was becuase the pilot wasn't very good.

Donuts
04-23-2011, 10:21 AM
All that is needed is a good number of mobile heavy AA trucks, like with guided missiles or something. So that a couple areas of denial can be set up. That way you can say "OK, jets can go around blowing the crap out of everything else, but under this self-propelled AA's range I am virtually safe". Of course, this could be countered by armour or AT infantry, which I think creates a good rock-paper-scissors that encourages combined arms and team tactics. As well as plenty of light AA scattered around the bases to deter enemy jets.

I'm not even sure that jets really fit into a game like battlefield. In my limited knowledge of real warfare, I thought jets were usually called in on a designated target, drop their payloads and return to base. Maybe they'll fly anti-air, search and destroy sorties, but I don't think dogfights even really happen much any more, do they?

x7string420x
04-23-2011, 10:39 AM
All that is needed is a good number of mobile heavy AA trucks, like with guided missiles or something. So that a couple areas of denial can be set up. That way you can say "OK, jets can go around blowing the crap out of everything else, but under this self-propelled AA's range I am virtually safe". Of course, this could be countered by armour or AT infantry, which I think creates a good rock-paper-scissors that encourages combined arms and team tactics. As well as plenty of light AA scattered around the bases to deter enemy jets.

I'm not even sure that jets really fit into a game like battlefield. In my limited knowledge of real warfare, I thought jets were usually called in on a designated target, drop their payloads and return to base. Maybe they'll fly anti-air, search and destroy sorties, but I don't think dogfights even really happen much any more, do they?


Prob not, but It's pretty sweet for a video game. It's still awesome seeing jets fly by/dog fighting in BF2 while you're running around on the ground. It's even more fun to fly them and do crazy stuff in them. Kamikaze C4 jets anyone?

RosesAreFF0000
04-23-2011, 10:40 AM
=
If a chopper pilot picked Flares(Vehicle smoke) he could be up for quite some time before he's finally killed. As it was Tracers that helped a lot. Sadly most people didn't use them.

By this, Flare needs more nerfing than jets (which I'd honestly support). But I agree, infantry had very very few options when it came to taking them down. Choppers you could hardaim a rocket at, jet....ehhhh not so much. I would support this though:

Maybe some kind of infantry based heat seeking AA would be cool too, like a Stinger.

They'd have to balance that out a bit, but just being able to have a viable option as infantry would help out.

Redtide
04-23-2011, 11:34 AM
AA that isn't defeated by one button press would go a long way.

MrChris
04-23-2011, 01:51 PM
BF2 jets simply gave too much power to the jet pilots beyond the simple power of the plane, either in other abilities such as the map or the simple rubbishness of the AA

I explain

All seeing HUD - onboard computer highlights all them mofos to kill
Minimap - you can see on your minimap stinger emplacements or empty vehicles, when they diseappear from the map you know someone is in them

Rubbish AA - ground based stingers sucked pure and simple, vehicular AA was the next best thing but was no that powerful, you could sometimes hit an air vehicle with a regular tank but that was hard at the best of times
Flying your own jet was often the best idea, but the air to air combat mechanics in terms of how the missiles behaved was so ♥♥♥♥ed up after one of the patches, let alone for a long time the J10 imbalance

2142 did AA perfectly but it had a lot of freedom to do it

BF3 jets need to be powerful but there needs to be teamwork systems in place to make them more visible on the battlefield, and a wide variety of different AA systems that are effective

FrontlinerDelta
04-23-2011, 02:07 PM
I would think that DICE has heard the community outcry about planes. I wouldn't be surprised if you could count the ways of shooting down jets in BF3 on two hands... As in, there will be plenty of answers to downing jets in BF3.

Thing is, it shouldn't be easy to bring down a jet either (unless you're flying one as well) and it would be annoying as hell whenever you take off to hear nothing but a missile warning constantly.

One thing that I think would be neat is too have two separate classes of jet. One air superiority fighter (F22) and one ground attack plane (A-10).

So an A-10's primary focus would be air support to ground forces. And I personally think the primary threat should be from fighter jets like the F22 (or the other faction's equivalents).

Yes there should be a way to shoot down aircraft from the ground but I'd like to see that role delegated more to fighter jets which in turn would have almost 0 ground attack capability. This way dogfighting would be more important and promoted than just a few people grabbing jets and ignoring each other to ♥♥♥♥ the infantry and armor on the ground.

Although I'm not sure how helicopters will factor into this. Been a long time since I played BF2.

Also about the A-10, I mentioned this in another thread. What if the AGMs had to be laser designated by ground forces for the A-10 pilot to really be able to see them. This is the biggest drawback to air support in real life, they can't see ♥♥♥♥ up there and often have to someone designate targets. Sure the cannon could be fired at anything but if DICE makes the speed of the planes such that it's impractical to try to scout for targets by eye, what if they gave infantry smoke or laser targeters to paint up targets for planes in the sky.

This could also provide another huge teamwork boost to the game.

flarp
04-23-2011, 05:23 PM
For a jet its easy, right into the turbines. They can't handle very large debris.

You have a jet flying at mach 2.0 around 30,000ft; you're gonna have to be quite a crack shot to pull that off.

Considering the fact that jet may be flying at well beyond the speed of the bullet; i would really like to see someone try to lead that shot lol.



Also about the A-10, I mentioned this in another thread. What if the AGMs had to be laser designated by ground forces for the A-10 pilot to really be able to see them. This is the biggest drawback to air support in real life, they can't see ♥♥♥♥ up there and often have to someone designate targets. Sure the cannon could be fired at anything but if DICE makes the speed of the planes such that it's impractical to try to scout for targets by eye, what if they gave infantry smoke or laser targeters to paint up targets for planes in the sky.

This could also provide another huge teamwork boost to the game.

I really like the overall idea of your post. I like the notion of fighting for air superiority, which thereby puts the opposing factions ground forces at risk from ground attack fighters.

The idea of having a FAC (forward air controller) designate targets is pretty cool too; perhaps even make that a separate class capability. However, the A10C which is in primary use with the USAF and will most likely be in use at the time BF3 is portraying has the ability to self-designate targets; thereby eliminating a need for a FAC.

Hamster Gutz
04-23-2011, 06:15 PM
Not while he is in the jet you can't. Almost all modern jets have the toughest bullet proof glass you could possibly find.

So unless you are his co-pilot, you won't be shooting him with a pistol while he is in the air, which means you won't be bringing him down.

That would be a griefer's paradise if they actually let you do that, lol.

AllenSugar
04-23-2011, 07:38 PM
Basses should be protected by automatic sam launchers

maps with jets should have dedicated AA vehicles

a dedicated AA weapon I.E the stinger should be available to engineers or anti tank class if theres one

scottydog07
04-23-2011, 08:41 PM
I want jets in BF3 but they need to land on a runway to get gas/repairs and reload flying over a runway is bull***

MAKE THEM LAND !!!!!!

also i would like to see a class that can use stingers for when the jets try to fly low and slow

jets and can be powerfull but i dont want to be killed every 20sec by the same jet. Friendly fire should never be turned off in a game with jets and tanks.

I would love to have infantry use a lazer to mark a tank with just make the jets land.

FrontlinerDelta
04-23-2011, 08:51 PM
You have a jet flying at mach 2.0 around 30,000ft; you're gonna have to be quite a crack shot to pull that off.

Considering the fact that jet may be flying at well beyond the speed of the bullet; i would really like to see someone try to lead that shot lol.




I really like the overall idea of your post. I like the notion of fighting for air superiority, which thereby puts the opposing factions ground forces at risk from ground attack fighters.

The idea of having a FAC (forward air controller) designate targets is pretty cool too; perhaps even make that a separate class capability. However, the A10C which is in primary use with the USAF and will most likely be in use at the time BF3 is portraying has the ability to self-designate targets; thereby eliminating a need for a FAC.

Ah, well I would still include it for balance's sake. Just like the AT4 is not really guided in real life but is in BC2.

ebevan91
04-23-2011, 09:02 PM
I want jets in BF3 but they need to land on a runway to get gas/repairs and reload flying over a runway is bull***

MAKE THEM LAND !!!!!!

also i would like to see a class that can use stingers for when the jets try to fly low and slow

jets and can be powerfull but i dont want to be killed every 20sec by the same jet. Friendly fire should never be turned off in a game with jets and tanks.

I would love to have infantry use a lazer to mark a tank with just make the jets land.

That's another thing we need. Make the jets have to land to rearm and repair.

kaleckton
04-24-2011, 01:05 AM
Battlefield 1942, AA guns everywhere to pluck the air. BFC2, the game where tanks and everyone with a machine gun and a few snipers are the AA. Does anyone other than me notice that the game was better (gameplay wise) and the maps were bigger in the past and not the new.

FrontlinerDelta
04-24-2011, 01:19 AM
Battlefield 1942, AA guns everywhere to pluck the air. BFC2, the game where tanks and everyone with a machine gun and a few snipers are the AA. Does anyone other than me notice that the game was better (gameplay wise) and the maps were bigger in the past and not the new.

Well they're very different eras and also very different games. BC2 is smaller thus maps are smaller and that's why there aren't AA guns every 5 ft.

scottydog07
04-24-2011, 01:54 AM
I think it would be fun to have one very big map mostly water with a Nimitz-class carrier with F-18 E/F and a Wasp-class carrier with choppers and the new 30 mph Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle.

The usa is trying to take a beach and both sides have like 12 jets that do not respawn.

A big map that was mostly water would not be that hard to make.

MPGeorge
04-24-2011, 02:18 AM
I cant wait to load up the wings with c4 and use the whole plane as the bomb like you can do with vehicles in BFBC2

Ace Quat
04-24-2011, 03:10 AM
i dont know about you guys but i really miss the cool anti air tanks/vehicles (that also were in bf2) in bfbc2. i loved using them on enemy aircraft as well as on enemy infantry alike (explosive shells ftw)! i hope bf3 features a wide array of them, as i hate op jets and jet pilots. there should be bradley linebackers, m163 vulcans, humvee avengers for the u.s. and shilkas, tunguskas and sa9 gaskins for the arabs available.

GirlPower23
04-24-2011, 04:56 AM
So Jets should be nerfed because of exceptional individuals? Typical thing to say.

Dustenza
04-24-2011, 07:59 AM
Mobile AA units are the best solution. Any stationary AA emplacement will be easily avoided and/or destroyed by a good jet pilot. Whatever stationary AA units are in place there should be plenty of them around the map for players to access.

Man I miss WWII. There was a perfect balance between air and land combat. AA guns were just as effective at taking down or deterring a plane from attacking as a good pilot was at bombing the hell out of ground targets and mowing down enemies with its guns. It was also just bad-♥♥♥ to hear the bombs exploding around you while you scrambled to get away.

Parliamentarian
04-24-2011, 11:18 AM
As a infantry in BF2 your options against jets where.

1: AA turrets that pilots can and will avoid and destroy a moment later. Thus leaving you quite dead if you stay in it. I've tried to get jets but the only thing they did was turbo away from my reach which was either up or away. Then came back and had a perfect fire on the AA turret.
2: AA tank. Granted this is probably the 2:nd best thing against jets but still it only appear on like one or two maps at the spawn or close to it. You could still be bombed to oblivion quite fast as well.
3: Tank. Well the fact that you're in a tank means that any Jet will go for you and they need to fly pretty low before you can actually hit them. They also fly around relative fast as well.
4: Best option to kill them is to be in the aircraft carrier turret and try to get the jet down. Sadly most jets will avoid the aircraft carrier most of the time due to this.

So no, Jets are just not easy to deal with and people who think that usually are delusional about it. They where Overpowered and the fact that Infantry only got so popular compared to any Jet map shows that.


I think you just suck(ed) at BF2.

I never had any problems taking out even good pilots as infantry with the tools every map gives you to do so. Of course, I am also a pilot, so I know all the "patterns" you can make on any given map (since the jets are so fast, and even the biggest maps are made "small" by your speed, you can only go in so many different routes).

Don't trail them with AA; make them collide with the rocket. Force them to turn into a building. Or just have better aim. :rolleyes:

Of course, if you're against a pilot (such as me) we can take a jet through the lower pipe on Kubra Dam, and you're in that pipe, you're pretty much screwed unless you have the whole pipe rigged with C4.

MattMay
04-24-2011, 11:38 AM
All i know is that the jets in bf2 were god machines and i dont want it like that in bf3, it shoudnt be jet ♥♥♥♥ and everything else second it should be everything else second and then jet ♥♥♥♥.

Parliamentarian
04-24-2011, 11:52 AM
I suppose they could balance it a little more simply by making the AA rockets move faster.

methodman123
04-24-2011, 11:58 AM
Jets are OP in war so the only solution is having Guns that kill in 1-2 shots this will not only balance the game, but shut the console boys up ;) yes i have argued with atleast 13 console kids who say bf3 will suck on the PC.

Redtide
04-24-2011, 12:06 PM
So Jets should be nerfed because of exceptional individuals? Typical thing to say.

Or perhaps because they invalidated everyone not in a jet? I like skill-based gameplay as much as the next guy but when you had no chance against air power it was detrimental to everything else.

Lethal_Sting
04-24-2011, 12:45 PM
I think you just suck(ed) at BF2.

I never had any problems taking out even good pilots as infantry with the tools every map gives you to do so.

Err right, and what tools were those again?

You mean those stinger pods that gave pilots a target box as soon as you sat in them? You mean the AAV's that were available in only a select few of the air maps?

And you sound like flying through the tunnels were only great pilots could do...