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zerrok
04-25-2011, 11:43 AM
Please explain to me fully why a certain account/login system as well as minor interface and friend invitations would stop you from purchasing a full game, while the game has full dedicated server support?

Instead of the "GFWL, will not buy" crap, would some explain some STRONG points that would STOP them from PLAYING the game because of a smaller service? I can agree that being from a certain country would stop you from playing, what are the other points?

If not, can you answer this: Would you refuse to eat a chocolate bar you really liked the taste of just because a certain company made them that had a bad reputation?

Maizel
04-25-2011, 11:51 AM
Same here. While I don't like the idea of DRM, I do get the feeling alot of people just follow the guys that shout "GFWL SUX, because whining about stuff seems to be the cool thing to do, and not because they ever had problems.

Myself, I've never had one problem with even the most sucky DRM around, like Securom, and I reinstall and switch hardware quite frequently. People just join in the hype, or dislike it on principle. Very few gamers I know ever had real troubles with DRM, and those few cases didn't ever involve GFWL.

Biologica
04-25-2011, 11:55 AM
GFWL has the same DRM model as Steam one license for one account.

zerrok
04-25-2011, 12:05 PM
Yes, both use the same model and here I ask another question.

If you have access to your account, why do you complain about not being able to play a game due to DRM? Are you planning on pirating the game or giving it to multiple people or what is the problem?

I know there is a problem with uninstalling and reinstalling a game but this game has said to not have that problem and considering we are on the STEAM forums, most likely to purchase the game from STEAM, this issue isn't present as STEAM overcomes multiple installations as long as you are on your account.

So, keeping in mind that you are using steam to buy the game so DRM is always present (unless you just like the steam forums), this argument isn't really valid and is game based, instead of anything else.

Certain games that have GFWL may not have worked in the past, doesn't mean all future GFWL games do not.

Keep in mind that I don't really like GFWL but it does not stop me from playing a game I wan't to play.

bschuler
04-25-2011, 12:07 PM
My major gripe is changing your GFWL name costs like $10. WTF?!?

So years ago, via an accident made when helping a kid with his Xbox360 account caused me to forever be stuck with the kid's username for my PC GFWL account as I accidentally registered my 1st ever GFWL game to it.. and now because I don't want to have multiple GFWL accounsts, I am stuck with it forever unless I want to pay $10. Thanks Microsux.

Rykerrk
04-25-2011, 12:33 PM
My major gripe is changing your GFWL name costs like $10. WTF?!?

So years ago, via an accident made when helping a kid with his Xbox360 account caused me to forever be stuck with the kid's username for my PC GFWL account as I accidentally registered my 1st ever GFWL game to it.. and now because I don't want to have multiple GFWL accounsts, I am stuck with it forever unless I want to pay $10. Thanks Microsux.

Yeah, cuz that whole scenario? Totally "Microsux"'s fault.

Take some responsibility, or are we the same age as the kid in question?

zerrok
04-25-2011, 12:38 PM
My major gripe is changing your GFWL name costs like $10. WTF?!?

So years ago, via an accident made when helping a kid with his Xbox360 account caused me to forever be stuck with the kid's username for my PC GFWL account as I accidentally registered my 1st ever GFWL game to it.. and now because I don't want to have multiple GFWL accounsts, I am stuck with it forever unless I want to pay $10. Thanks Microsux.

You're own fault, choose a right name or don't complain. If you don't want multiple accounts, pay for it or don't.

Furthermore, this problem isn't a problem, you have a chance to make what ever account name you wan't before the game is released and what you choose is upto you. This is such a small problem, would you refuse to buy a GFWL game because of a silly mistake you made which is completely correctable?

Dana
04-25-2011, 12:44 PM
Because its broken.

http://www.bit-tech.net/columns/2009/01/31/this-was-meant-to-be-a-fallout-3-dlc-review/1

zerrok
04-25-2011, 12:49 PM
Because its broken.

http://www.bit-tech.net/columns/2009/01/31/this-was-meant-to-be-a-fallout-3-dlc-review/1

You explain why it's broken, not quote a webpage, i'm not going to read that and i'm guessing that some of those points aren't going to be the same for this game.

That is a hate review of GFWL, nothing more. It lists the problems a individual had, this doesn't include everyone and GFWL as a whole.

So again, explain why it's broken, i'll assume the word broken as it is intended and so, since it is broken, I won't be able to play Section 8 the way it was meant to be because it's broken, right?

Rykerrk
04-25-2011, 12:51 PM
You explain why it's broken, not quote a webpage, i'm not going to read that and i'm guessing that some of those points aren't going to be the same for this game.

That is a hate review of GFWL, nothing more. It lists the problems a individual had, this doesn't include everyone and GFWL as a whole.

So again, explain why it's broken, i'll assume the word broken as it is intended and so, since it is broken, I won't be able to play Section 8 the way it was meant to be because it's broken, right?

I just installed Section 8 for grins and giggles today after buying it like, half a year ago. No hassles, logged on, no patches. Plays great.

Dana
04-25-2011, 01:13 PM
You explain why it's broken, not quote a webpage

-Unable to connect
-Unable to login
-Unable to update
-Stuck on retrieving account information
-NAT errors
-Error 80154017
-Error 0x8151911
-Game updating through GFWL not working properly.

all off the top of my head. Granted, YOU may not have these problems. But I had plenty of them, in Dawn of War series and Bulletstorm. All which led to the subjectiv e conclusion, that GFWL service is broken.

SapientWolf
04-25-2011, 01:25 PM
I just installed Section 8 for grins and giggles today after buying it like, half a year ago. No hassles, logged on, no patches. Plays great.
I think they did a recent GFWL rehaul. Everyone had to download the a new version, but the updater was buggy. But once it's working you don't really have to worry about it again unless you decide to move your GFWL install.

STARSBarry
04-25-2011, 02:08 PM
heres a great example, Dawn of War 2, know when that first came out and people where all HEY WHY CANT WE HAVE CUSTOM BADGES? and everyone was well probably so they can charge us for DLC

well it wasent, you see when you sign up to use games for windows live you sign up to there terms of service, of what YOUR GAME (thats the developers im meaning here not us) can and cannot have in online, sure itl be standard stuff, but its standard stuff YOU ONLY GET WITH GAMES FOR WINDOWS LIVE NO ONE ELSE TELLS YOU TO DO THIS ♥♥♥♥!

also since dawn of war 2 went steam only its massivly improved, theres things like a general chat channel, and custom badges and fun and general lulz all round, dropping it was the best thing relic ever did.

dropping this will be the best thing section 8 ever did, games for windows live is the new gamespy, people dislike gamespy for good reason

its not so much windows live is massivly broken in one area it just fails at every step compared to a compititers.... lets give an example steamworks.... system. Its not so much GFWL is terrible or a godawfull abomination its just your game would be better off without it.... so why are people using it?

AusSkiller
04-25-2011, 02:30 PM
so why are people using it?

The only reason I can think of is if it's a port from a 360 game then it is a lot easier to just use GFWL for many of it's "features" than it would be to switch to any other system because the code for GFWL is very similar to XBL and needs very little work to port to PC.

STARSBarry
04-25-2011, 02:58 PM
The only reason I can think of is if it's a port from a 360 game then it is a lot easier to just use GFWL for many of it's "features" than it would be to switch to any other system because the code for GFWL is very similar to XBL and needs very little work to port to PC.

this here must be the only reason and its a terrible one at that, if monday night combat can do it, so can anyone else.... and with the amount of updates those guys are throwing out for free it really is pretty amazing

Sifer2
04-25-2011, 03:11 PM
Yeah this wont be the first time I have put up with the inferior GFWL service to play a game I liked. I did it for Dawn of War 2 before they switched to Steamworks. I'll do it for this. Hopefully the third one uses Steamworks though. Just cause there is a lot of people that wont put up with it no matter if the game is good.

Fluxeor
04-25-2011, 03:55 PM
Because its broken.

http://www.bit-tech.net/columns/2009/01/31/this-was-meant-to-be-a-fallout-3-dlc-review/1

Yeah, it had problems in 2009 that caused issues with some games.. most of those have been fixed since then. Sure new problems crop up from time to time, but they do that in every system.

zerrok
04-25-2011, 04:06 PM
-Unable to connect
-Unable to login
-Unable to update
-Stuck on retrieving account information
-NAT errors
-Error 80154017
-Error 0x8151911
-Game updating through GFWL not working properly.

all off the top of my head. Granted, YOU may not have these problems. But I had plenty of them, in Dawn of War series and Bulletstorm. All which led to the subjectiv e conclusion, that GFWL service is broken.

So, a individuals problem but not the service as a whole? Hmm..

I sure didn't have any of these problems, not everyone gets these and there are work arounds and fixes so sadly to say, none of these problems stop me from buying a game because they work for me.

Surely everyone who hates and complains about GFWL doesn't experience these technical issues preventing you from playing the game, do they?

I haven't seen a single point listed thats actually bad about it once its working and stops people from buying a game, apart from DRM, which again doesn't really apply since your using Steam, huge DRM on its own.

zerrok
04-25-2011, 04:12 PM
heres a great example, Dawn of War 2, know when that first came out and people where all HEY WHY CANT WE HAVE CUSTOM BADGES? and everyone was well probably so they can charge us for DLC

well it wasent, you see when you sign up to use games for windows live you sign up to there terms of service, of what YOUR GAME (thats the developers im meaning here not us) can and cannot have in online, sure itl be standard stuff, but its standard stuff YOU ONLY GET WITH GAMES FOR WINDOWS LIVE NO ONE ELSE TELLS YOU TO DO THIS ♥♥♥♥!

also since dawn of war 2 went steam only its massivly improved, theres things like a general chat channel, and custom badges and fun and general lulz all round, dropping it was the best thing relic ever did.

dropping this will be the best thing section 8 ever did, games for windows live is the new gamespy, people dislike gamespy for good reason

its not so much windows live is massivly broken in one area it just fails at every step compared to a compititers.... lets give an example steamworks.... system. Its not so much GFWL is terrible or a godawfull abomination its just your game would be better off without it.... so why are people using it?

But according to this logic, all GFWL games are bad and any company that uses their services makes their game worse.

You claim that switching to Steam works majorly improved DoW2 Retri? No, them making a new game and sequel was the improvement, people complained that it was EVEN HARDER to find matches, laughably, and I experienced this problem having both games. I didn't like the chat rooms and found no use for them so in actuality, its preference right? What are you talking about custom badges? I could use them in DoW2 just fine, I don't know about you but everyone else could as well. General lulz? You're argument is pretty weak in all honesty.

I don't know what to make of what you said in the second paragraph either...You mean they restrict what you can have online? Yes, that is true but that doesn't really matter unless they've been refused something because of GFWL, it's not a improvement to just remove a service at all, it's the companies decision on what they're adding and if they did add GFWL and did have problems between the two companies in agreements, then we could discuss that but for now, no, we cannot.

So all i've gathered from this is...removing GFWL = better game? Right, great statement but sadly, not necessarily.

held
04-25-2011, 04:16 PM
The only reason I can think of is if it's a port from a 360 game then it is a lot easier to just use GFWL for many of it's "features" than it would be to switch to any other system because the code for GFWL is very similar to XBL and needs very little work to port to PC.

Can XBox 360 and PC Users play on the same servers then?

zerrok
04-25-2011, 04:24 PM
Can XBox 360 and PC Users play on the same servers then?

No, they stopped doing that.

Fluxeor
04-25-2011, 04:36 PM
Stuff

Actually, My experience has been the exact opposite.
Dawn of War 2 Retribution actually performs worse for myself and the group I regularly group with to play Last Stand, with more game connection dropping and lag through steamworks handling of the matchmaking system (one of the players is on my local network and regularly sees steam disconnect him from the game whilst I remain connected or visa-versa.. which I should point out only happens when we're playing Retri, no other game suffers the same problem).
During the entire GFWL matchmaking reliance from DOW2 and Chaos Rising, we experienced a grand total of 1 issue compared to the 4 Retri connection losses alone suffered in the last week alone through steam.

Dana
04-25-2011, 05:07 PM
So, a individuals problem but not the service as a whole? Hmm..

What do you mean ? Clearly the problems are related to the service itself, and are not the effect of my doing. And I assure you, there are many people with similar problems, I thought it was a common knowledge that GFWL sucks for a reason.

Oh, and we put a game with DRM on a DRM platform, so you can DRM while you DRM.

STARSBarry
04-25-2011, 05:15 PM
What are you talking about custom badges?

icons for the sholder plates.... you could hack them in but no one else could see them and they replaced an exsisting badge... you now have a folder in your my documents/my games for custom badges that are uploaded to other players when you play for them to view.... not having them kinda killed off what the army painter was for.... since you where limited to the exsiting set of chapters and not your own custom one.

GFWL was microsofts attempt to lockdown PC games in the same way xbox live has complete control over all content on the marketplace and the way you play your xbox games on console, it failed thankfully and its a waste to even use the system, as for retribtuion no idea what kinda probs you get on same networking but im guessing its an oversite on theres, look all i know is when i used to search for 1v1 match making or 3v3 it took half an hour i gave up and stopped playing DoW2 after like 3 matches since it took so long to find one, now hell it takes forever but least i get invites I can accept no problem.

my main fact it dead rising 2 coop, is an impossible game to play over the damn thing, bioshock 2 multiplayer was god awfull to find any type of match and when the DLC popped out I couldent play for a week while it tried to find the damn content to install, and DoW2 cant find me matches on the damn thing what am I supposed to think? Perhaps people have diffrent exsperiences but everyone for me like everyone for gamespy arcade has sucked massive balls, its bloatware and theres no need for it when there is free alternatives that do the same job and dont tell me what I can and cant be named ingame.

armyfreak221
04-25-2011, 06:27 PM
i never....and i repeat once again NEVER had a issue with Dow2 on Gfwl....and ima absolutely major Last Stand player....all the changes were mostly ingame by relic not steam...the chat i can live without mostly trolls in there, my ONLY gripe with steamworks on standalone expansion is the loading screens really fck with my computer.....seriously prolonged and by the time it goes to the bar to show whos in th game and how far loaded in they are all done or almost done when im starting....i verified game files and nothing....anyone else get this?

zerrok
04-25-2011, 06:58 PM
icons for the sholder plates.... you could hack them in but no one else could see them and they replaced an exsisting badge... you now have a folder in your my documents/my games for custom badges that are uploaded to other players when you play for them to view.... not having them kinda killed off what the army painter was for.... since you where limited to the exsiting set of chapters and not your own custom one.

GFWL was microsofts attempt to lockdown PC games in the same way xbox live has complete control over all content on the marketplace and the way you play your xbox games on console, it failed thankfully and its a waste to even use the system, as for retribtuion no idea what kinda probs you get on same networking but im guessing its an oversite on theres, look all i know is when i used to search for 1v1 match making or 3v3 it took half an hour i gave up and stopped playing DoW2 after like 3 matches since it took so long to find one, now hell it takes forever but least i get invites I can accept no problem.

my main fact it dead rising 2 coop, is an impossible game to play over the damn thing, bioshock 2 multiplayer was god awfull to find any type of match and when the DLC popped out I couldent play for a week while it tried to find the damn content to install, and DoW2 cant find me matches on the damn thing what am I supposed to think? Perhaps people have diffrent exsperiences but everyone for me like everyone for gamespy arcade has sucked massive balls, its bloatware and theres no need for it when there is free alternatives that do the same job and dont tell me what I can and cant be named ingame.

I never ever heard about any custom badges, I thought the premade ones were standard and were good enough in all honesty, I don't care nor have ever heard about any custom badges before so that is strange but honestly, is it a big deal? Plus that ranked 1v1/3v3 or what ever thing has been broken for both DOW2 and retri, i've had problems with both games as well as others, some reporting steamworks to be even worse and in honesty it has been for me, maybe it's just the game?

Although your post is messy I understand what you're saying and I agree, many GFWL games could have been a lot better but have been dragged down by horrible little things but can we blame it all on GFWL?

At the end of the day the company that makes the game is the key player here. A problem I have with MANY GFWL games, specifically Dead Rising 2 is that, although we are playing the game on a PC, there is no Keyboard chat and the microphone chat is annoying/hard to use and or of bad quality, why though?

I'd have to say that game companies simply cannot be bothered. GFWL does not restrict these services, such as keyboard typing or microphone controls, it just adds a base. If the company cannot be bothered to improve their game for PC users, which MOST GFWL GAMES ARE PORTS, keeping in mind we're dealing with console ports here, then it is their fault for not bothering about the PC market, not GFWL.

Evidently yes, GFWL games usually have problems with them that people get frustrated about and blame GFWL on them but I think people forget to realise that 90% of GFWL games are console ports and that the companies do not concentrate on the PC game but rather the Xbox 360 version.

DOW2 is the only game I can think of that is GFWL and exclusive for the PC at the moment and I can't think of any features (apart from some apparent custom badges) that were restricted because of the service.

I can play Dead Rising 2 coop, although I admit it can be dodgy sometimes. Bioshock 2's multiplayer wasn't the best but then again, this was the first time multiplayer was introduced into Bioshock, was the multiplayer bad or were the servers bad and who is to blame? DoW2's match making has always seem to be bad in one way or another so thats that really.



BUT, despite all of this i've forgot one BIG FAT IMPORTANT FACT: This new section 8 does not use GFWL servers but Dedicated servers instead, so these mutliplayer issue's shouldn't be a problem in theory and if that is the case...what is stopping people from playing the game?

tl:dr = GFWL = usually console port = bad support on PC / developers fault. If servers are the main issue, section 8 prejudice has dedicated servers so this problems gone.

GSGregory
04-25-2011, 08:09 PM
I think the biggest problem is its a stupid service that limits things like ingame name ect[ considering that a name change is all computers its really not worth anything in the first place] and honestly it simply reminds me of why i dont pay to play online on my xbox or the fact that having to deal with microsoft bs and garbage often is a waste of time for the user.


In the end the choice to use gfwl is limiting the game and they will probably see less sells because people dont want to deal with microsofts garbage.



Sorry but i had a ton of garbage just trying to play the first game where it took about a hour to get gfwl to work correctly[ it got stuck in a nice updating loop for some time and considering i have never used it on this current os it was kinda stupid.

NanoImp
04-25-2011, 09:58 PM
If you thought that update loop was bad... After I finally got the 1.1 patch for S8 downloaded after a bloody long 20 min download.. The patch required some misc Microsoft operating patch to work and install. Initially, I was given some random error message... ok... possibly corrupt download, so another 20 min waiting. Slightly different error message...

Gave up and went to official support pages, nothing yet. Google and dig through MS support site, found that little patch to get the 1.1 patch to install properly. Then I found out upon logging into Steam I couldn't start the game.

Another person recently filled me in that this issue was because of SECUROM DISC PROTECTION making its way into the patch code. 3-4 days later, I could start S8 and didn't care anymore.

Who is to say that crap, or something similar won't happen again? I'm not referring to disc drm.

CaptainDingo
04-25-2011, 10:08 PM
I hate DRM more than most people I know, but I see no problem with GFWL. It's never not worked for me, it's never caused stability or usability issues, and it's super easy to invite friends to games most of the time (Like in GTA4, you simply invite a friend, he accepts, and no matter what part of the game he is in, bam, loading screen and straight to the lobby).

GSGregory
04-25-2011, 11:19 PM
heh i think the problem is most people who do have issues with it can never get that far in.

Most of my issues with it are related to having to deal with microsoft.

still waiting for microsoft support so i can can actually buy my points and make a nick change sadly though i dont know if they will get my money for the 10 buck deal going for 3 months of live.

NanoImp
04-25-2011, 11:37 PM
There are many common complaints with GFWL and it still bewilders me to this day how the devs could shoot their game like this. No custom options is bad enough with many risking reputation suicide, but to reuse a problematic platform/interface is just public, political and industry suicide.

Repeats and repeats, but I still feel like bringing it up due to the time I invested into the game, in another digital life. If I didn't care, I wouldn't be doing what I have been, and that goes for many other people of similar or different goals.

zerrok
04-25-2011, 11:50 PM
Again, like i've mentioned in another thread, you have to take into consideration what kind of relationship and or partnership these companies have with GFWL.

Since they've released this for the Xbox 360 as a download the easiest thing for them to do is to release the PC version of the game with GFWL as it would share points with the Xbox 360 version.

I'm sure its a lot harder for them to simply drop GFWL then it is to do anything else, they've obviously got the message because there are now Dedicated servers but how would one simply remove GFWL from their game just like that? I'm sure there is legal issues between microsoft, maybe they've signed a contract or maybe it's just too much hassle and would delay the game further as they would have to recreate their own login and friends system as well as additional chat rooms or what ever.

Would you wan't the game to be delayed a couple of months to remove GFWL? I know I wouldn't but i'll be honest, I won't be happy if there is no ability to chat on the game through the keyboard...I haven't played section 8 so does anyone know if you can? Like said, it proves the game company can be bothered on the PC version and they have said that they've enhanced it.

NanoImp
04-25-2011, 11:55 PM
There is an ability to chat via keyboard and ingame text. It just doesn't stay there long. Not very helpful beyond typing "cp1" or "emp ld" to your squad.

As for delaying to remove GFWL, I wouldn't mind one bit. Also gives them more time to reconsider server options.

Also, Timegate announced in press releases that Prejudice is 100% created, funded, and published by Timegate. It was after Southpeak, their previous publisher refused to pay development costs and royalties because of how badly the game did in the market. "Breach in contract." Messy details once you factor the contract was made with a company that Southpeak acquired, and they can argue it is not a contract with "Southpeak."

If I were the publisher, I wouldn't allow a studio to take the "specific" gamble it did via server options. Game development costs are already in the millions and making a game more unpopular via 2 specific ways is bound to cause problems like "breaches in contract."

The way I see Timegate's actions and responses in press releases is this:

They are proud to be an independent studio, making games that fit their design philosophies. They will not allow themselves to be shackled to the desires of a publisher.

Cue Bungie and Microsoft. Except those 2 made a splash, then a bigger splash combining Halo 2 with the "new" Xbox Live. Many games later, Bungie could negotiate becoming independent. Cash reserves help.

I predict someone will respond with "Southpeak did not grant Timegate a large development or marketing budget." That doesn't fly to the board or investors when a studio is making a fps in a sea of fpses. Especially a studio that made a disappointing sequel of a larger and external franchise.

tunguska47
04-26-2011, 04:32 AM
-Unable to connect
-Unable to login
-Unable to update
-Stuck on retrieving account information
-NAT errors
-Error 80154017
-Error 0x8151911
-Game updating through GFWL not working properly.

all off the top of my head. Granted, YOU may not have these problems. But I had plenty of them, in Dawn of War series and Bulletstorm. All which led to the subjectiv e conclusion, that GFWL service is broken.

u forgot no hack protection and match making from hell then a friend limit of 50 or 100 which i have reached

dont forget about memory leaks and crashes

then buying DLC's with MS points

people asking whats wrong with GFWL must not own any games with it

NanoImp
04-26-2011, 05:00 AM
I swear, one of those error messages look familiar. I think that was the one that caused me to go through a little bit of hell to get the first game's patch to download and then install.

Then it broke my game because the devs left disc protection for a Steam patch... What?

STARSBarry
04-26-2011, 07:13 AM
look they say there making it for PS3 as well.... this WONT use GFWL and who knows since PS3 has steamworks now it might even use that, all I ask if when that comes about they patch the PC version to whatever the hell there using on that

oh and custom badges rock dude DoW2 is alot better with it see http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v165/Fat_Tony_/sh2badge.jpg

Kei-chan
04-26-2011, 04:39 PM
Because its broken.

http://www.bit-tech.net/columns/2009/01/31/this-was-meant-to-be-a-fallout-3-dlc-review/1
>Posting an article from 2009

Haha.

VividNinjaScar
04-26-2011, 06:08 PM
Weeeeeee

Unbanned.
-Unable to connect
-Unable to login

The same thing. If you can't login or connect, you will be signed into offline mode and still be able to play single player.
Also:

-NAT errors
-Error 80154017
-Error 0x8151911

These are directly related to those up there. If you have a router that supports uPnP, you won't have anything to worry about. If not, you can forward ports just fine.

-Unable to update
-Game updating through GFWL not working properly.

The same thing. Once you update to GFWL version 3.6, updates work fine. I never had issues with updates anyway.

-Stuck on retrieving account information

Never seen this happen. It 'lags' at the end, I guess, but this is only when you install your first game. Rather irrelevant, just like the updates that only happen once in a blue moon.

u forgot no hack protection and match making from hell then a friend limit of 50 or 100 which i have reached

It is 100. Big deal.

dont forget about memory leaks and crashes

Never seen this. It uses 16k on my computer compared to Steam's 200k.

then buying DLC's with MS points

This used to be true, but it was ended about a year ago. Now you can buy with MS point or credit/debit cards.

X-Dolphin
04-26-2011, 08:23 PM
VNS: The latest non-beta GFWL release is 3.4. Either you mis-typed or you have special access to version 3.6.

Also, a thing to note here is that GFWL tends to introduce new features with new games (according to a GFWL staff member), unlike Steam which seems to introduce new features independent of game releases. A number of new features have been added to GFWL in the last 18 months so the service has improved, however much of them are not visible to the end user (back-end changes) and MS has a way of not informing people of those new features.

And the release cycle is way too slow. I'm a GFWL supporter for the most part since it has worked very well for me, but the release cycle is something that I'm critical of.

King-Martin
04-27-2011, 12:23 AM
-Unable to connect
-Unable to login
-Unable to update
-Stuck on retrieving account information
-NAT errors
-Error 80154017
-Error 0x8151911
-Game updating through GFWL not working properly.

all off the top of my head. Granted, YOU may not have these problems. But I had plenty of them, in Dawn of War series and Bulletstorm. All which led to the subjectiv e conclusion, that GFWL service is broken.
All these issues mostly are down to user error on PC or router. UPnP not being enabled or alternatively port forwarding not being set up causes most of this.

neurotiq
04-27-2011, 01:44 AM
ITT: Microsoft Xbots

Here's a good question tools, why should I have 2 DRMs?

Here's another one.

Why should the second of these 2 DRMs charge me for free-features of the first DRM?

On top of that, why can't the second DRM integrate with the first one?

There arent good answers, GFWL is terrible and people that like it are probably just trying to be "different", kinda like left activists these days. Everyone's opinion is "important", and those "opinions" are devoid of logic, GFWL charges for features that Steam offers for free, GFWL is inferior to Steam in every way, GFWL is cumbersome when you layer it on top of a fully capable DRM.

Get over it, your interface sucks, thats not an opinion, its an analysis based on the server support, feature set, reliability and so forth in comparison to the Steamworks platform.

Read this:
Occam's razor " is a principle that generally recommends selecting the competing hypothesis that makes the fewest new assumptions, when the hypotheses are equal in other respects.".

Answer this:
Why have 2 DRMs?

I get piracy as the fear driving this decision, a silly proposition considering the features that are forfeited.

GFWL can't even stop day 1 piracy, just look at Fallout.

zerrok
04-27-2011, 05:33 AM
ITT: Microsoft Xbots

Here's a good question tools, why should I have 2 DRMs?

Here's another one.

Why should the second of these 2 DRMs charge me for free-features of the first DRM?

On top of that, why can't the second DRM integrate with the first one?

There arent good answers, GFWL is terrible and people that like it are probably just trying to be "different", kinda like left activists these days. Everyone's opinion is "important", and those "opinions" are devoid of logic, GFWL charges for features that Steam offers for free, GFWL is inferior to Steam in every way, GFWL is cumbersome when you layer it on top of a fully capable DRM.

Get over it, your interface sucks, thats not an opinion, its an analysis based on the server support, feature set, reliability and so forth in comparison to the Steamworks platform.

Read this:
Occam's razor " is a principle that generally recommends selecting the competing hypothesis that makes the fewest new assumptions, when the hypotheses are equal in other respects.".

Answer this:
Why have 2 DRMs?

I get piracy as the fear driving this decision, a silly proposition considering the features that are forfeited.

GFWL can't even stop day 1 piracy, just look at Fallout.

Answer with another question: Why do I care about 2 DRM's and why would I stop buying a game I liked because of it?

Yes, I don't really like GFWL and I think it's unnecessary but this company has some kind of deal or contract, it's easier for them and although sadly it damages sales, it doesn't really effect the user unless they cannot play the game due to restrictions.

Besides, there ain't much problems with DRM unless it stops you from playing the game. 1) You own steam account, you can play. 2) You own a Login for that game, you can play.

This kind of system is pretty natural for most games, you forget your login, you may not be able to play.

Besides, what's GFWL charging you for if we were to play Section 8 as opposed to playing without GFWL? There is 2 DRM's because you're buying through a DRM seller, you are free to buy the game not through steam but steam aren't held responsible for editing a GFWL game just because it is, it's just the distributor.

AusSkiller
04-27-2011, 06:29 AM
Besides, there ain't much problems with DRM unless it stops you from playing the game. 1) You own steam account, you can play. 2) You own a Login for that game, you can play.

See, that's the thing, 1 is true because Steam is well implemented and is why few people complain about it, but 2 is false because GFWL and LIVE it's self are not well implemented. If LIVE goes down (which it does, a lot) then even if you have a Login for that game you cannot play, which is just one of the reasons why people are complaining about GFWL.

Omega4
04-27-2011, 07:33 AM
See, that's the thing, 1 is true because Steam is well implemented and is why few people complain about it, but 2 is false because GFWL and LIVE it's self are not well implemented. If LIVE goes down (which it does, a lot) then even if you have a Login for that game you cannot play, which is just one of the reasons why people are complaining about GFWL.

Does GWFL have an offline mode (like Steam) which would allow me to play against bots in Conquest even if GWFL service is down?

Biologica
04-27-2011, 08:43 AM
Does GWFL have an offline mode (like Steam) which would allow me to play against bots in Conquest even if GWFL service is down?

Yes there is an offline mode.

Dave3d
04-27-2011, 08:54 AM
Yes there is an offline mode.

Not for MP there isnt.

And, also note, if you play SP in offline mode, and then switch to online mode (the only way you can play MP), you WILL lose your SP data.

zerrok
04-27-2011, 09:57 AM
Not for MP there isnt.

And, also note, if you play SP in offline mode, and then switch to online mode (the only way you can play MP), you WILL lose your SP data.

Well i'm sure that's a bug and should be fixed, strange mentioning bugs before the games out I sure hope that isn't a feature of GFWL.

Anyway, maybe i'm just lucky but i've never had problems with GFWL and i've never played a game during it being down to my knowledge. The odd occasion it did sometimes get stuck on login back in DoW2's days but to fix it I just restarted the game.

I'm pretty sure it's not as extreme as you think, if STEAM isn't working you can't play many online games as well, providing they use steam works and that HAPPENS ALOT, way more then GFWL going down. I've never played while GFWL has been down though so..I don't know, I can't really comment if its extremely common?

Dave3d
04-27-2011, 10:20 AM
I am posting from experience, not from this games standpoint (as it hasnt been released yet).
I have lost 4 games saves (some multiple times) due to this bug in GFWL.

Thats why I wont buy GFWL games anymore.
:(

VividNinjaScar
04-27-2011, 10:29 AM
Not for MP there isnt.

And, also note, if you play SP in offline mode, and then switch to online mode (the only way you can play MP), you WILL lose your SP data.

Only if you are using an offline profile and then switching to an online one. If you don't have a connection you will only be in offline mode and will not lost anything. You will still be able to save and play just fine.

ipariszalonna
04-27-2011, 10:50 AM
Offline profiles for GFWL are mainly used for pirated copys of games so it's really should't be a problem. If you have internet connection and legally own the game, you don't need to create an offline profile. People without internet access at all are really a minority and I'm sure anyone posting on a forum can't really say they don't have internet access :D

Dave3d
04-27-2011, 11:15 AM
I disagree with both of you.
I lost 0 save games with an offline profile.
Switching to online profile, I lost 3 save games from 3 different games.
Then the fun REALLY started.
I installed a new game, played fine in online mode.
1/2 way through the game, I lost the save (I think there was a GFWL update, and somehow it hosed my game save). After that, I lost the same games save 2 more times.
I also lost 2 of the others save games (probably same reason, to that 1 update) when I finally went back to play them. I had issues with the save again, on 1 of them until the day I uninstalled both the game and GFWL.

And, yes, I legally own all 4 games.
Bioshock
Bioshock 2
Flatout 2 UC
Batmann AA

As for playing offline, in online account, I tried that once.
Lost all of my saves for that game too.

So, screw GFWL.
I wont buy anything that has it.
And, no, I dont pirate them either.

VividNinjaScar
04-27-2011, 12:01 PM
So it wasn't a different profile?

You have the three games that are nutorious for lost saves. Bioshock 2, Flatout UC and Batman AA have all had issues with the way saves are handeled. The same can be said for Dirt 2. However, it is more of a developer issue than a service issue. Exactly like when New Vegas was deleting saves with the Steam Cloud.

Bioshock 1 doesn't use GFWL. I am assuming that was a mistake putting it there, as you said you lost three saves but list four games.

Dave3d
04-27-2011, 12:13 PM
Well, I had FO:UC for a LONG time.
Offline profile.
Never lost a single save game.
Same with Batman: AA.
Until I bought Bioshock 2, and wanted to play MP.
THATS when everything went to hell.
I had no problems with GFWL until that point. Could care less if a game had it or not.
But, after that point, with all the issues I have had, I will never use it again.

VividNinjaScar
04-27-2011, 12:15 PM
So they were offline?

That isn't losing a save, that is making a different profile. Saves are profile based, so when you make a new one, of course you can't see the saves for the other profiles.

Dave3d
04-27-2011, 12:21 PM
And all the save game losses AFTER that point?
How to explain away that?
:(

Anyway, I am not trying to argue, just give points on why, I, specifically, dont like GFWL anymore.

VividNinjaScar
04-27-2011, 12:26 PM
After what point?

Flatout - Played Offline
Batman - Played Offline
Bioshock - Played Offline
Want to Play Bioshock Online
Make Online Profile
Saves Gone

Is that correct? If it is than you made a new profile, and there is nothing more to it. Hell, the offline function is pretty well hidden, so you would have had to know about it before hand really.

Dave3d
04-27-2011, 01:04 PM
After what point?

Flatout - Played Offline
Batman - Played Offline
Bioshock - Played Offline
Want to Play Bioshock Online
Make Online Profile
Saves Gone
...

Played games AGAIN, in online profile mode (couldnt figure out how to go back to offline).
Lost saves.
Played again in online.
Lost saves.
Lost saves.
Lost saves.
Uninstalled all games using GFWL, and GFWL itself.

Like I said.
I had NO issues when using offline mode, on all games.
As soon as I enabled online mode, I lost save after save after save after save. And, no, not just that 1 time I switched to online after being offline. Every couple months after switching to online, I lost 1 or more saves.
Now, I dont use GFWL, and have NEVER lost a save. Ever. Just like I had never lost a save before GFWL (unless I had to re-install the os).
So, no.
No more GFWL for me.

Omega4
04-27-2011, 01:06 PM
I asked about an offline mode for GFWL because I'm curious if I can still play Conquest mode with bots long after the MP community for S8P dies out.

It sounds like the answer is yes.

Dave3d
04-27-2011, 01:09 PM
Is conquest mode MP?
If so, then I would say thats a No, not a Yes (not that I know for sure, since I havent played the game, nor done beta testing, but going from past games experience).
If its not MP, then I would say you probably can play it in offline mode.

zerrok
04-27-2011, 01:54 PM
Let me be very clear here:

Using a different gamer tag will change your save, I hope people realise this...

VividNinjaScar
04-27-2011, 08:48 PM
How the hell do you lose saves five times when you said it was only three?

ArmorArmadillo
04-28-2011, 12:03 AM
Well isn't this a change of pace, from people hating GFWL to a mini GFWL fangirl squad.

GFWL is trash, its bloat, its interface is clunky, unresponsive and cumbersome to use. Dealing with gamertags is annoying, if you have a main gamertag which you use when you had online capability, one day your net is down you are screwed, that tag is locked out so you need to restart fresh. I know this because ive had this issue with GTA4 and RF:G. On top of this its pretty much impossible to back up save files because of this stupid method. Lets not forget the "recovering profile" "downloading patch" "enter serial key" "logging into GFWL" etc routine on a fresh install of a game.

VOIP quality on it is pretty weak and due to the GFWL the majority of games skip on text chat and either comply fully and leave it or put it in in such a limited capacity is useless. This leaves you pulling down the guide, going through your recent players list, finding the guy(s) you want to message and waiting on its slowpoke system to catch up.

Its networking is pretty dire too, reliant on a couple of a ports, you might think this is a great thing, not if you have an xbox 360 in your house, port conflicts ahoy.

As for buying things from it, microsoft keep your card info on record for forever and a day, might not be so much of an issue for pure GFWL users but for 360 owners its a pain.

As others have said too theres a massive lack of anticheat and also the "report" system does nothing. Theres no GFWL enforcement team like on XBL. For the very vast majority GFWL games are P2P networking (yes im aware this has dedis), from experience they've all been pretty laggy too, even when playing a small RF:G game with a couple of mates.

Quite simply GFWL was built for a time when microsoft had the pet project of cross platform play, that was abandoned and left GFWL to rot and now theyre throwing bandaids on massive slice.

Why would ANYONE want this when you buy the game on steam when steam not only has a much more robust overlay/friends/anticheat/etc its more reliable and consistent too. You are paying for a game to have steam then extra bloat slapped on top. Steam is far from perfect, don't get me wrong, but GFWL makes it look like a saint.

If you guys are happy with that then fine, enjoy, you are welcome to revel in it. Me however? I'll be sitting right over with the rest of the people wishing GFWL will just go away, less and less people are going with it and more are going with steam or a system without either, much better options.

NanoImp
04-28-2011, 12:22 AM
It's one thing to defend GFWL if there are genuinely good functions or features on it. I did defend it briefly and fairly by saying it has 1 free name change and has a mail feature.

It's another thing to defend it because the developers refused to take community input 6+ months ago, and it's all there is left to go with.

VividNinjaScar
04-28-2011, 03:03 AM
GFWL is trash, its bloat, its interface is clunky, unresponsive and cumbersome to use. Dealing with gamertags is annoying, if you have a main gamertag which you use when you had online capability, one day your net is down you are screwed, that tag is locked out so you need to restart fresh. I know this because ive had this issue with GTA4 and RF:G. On top of this its pretty much impossible to back up save files because of this stupid method.If you don't have a connection, you will be logged into offline mode giving you full access to your saves. There is no difference between an online profile in online mode and an online profile in offline mode. The difference occurs with actual different profiles, like local ones. Lets not forget the "recovering profile" "downloading patch" "enter serial key" "logging into GFWL" etc routine on a fresh install of a game.Holy ♥♥♥♥, you mean you have to enter in information a whole one time? VOIP quality on it is pretty weak and due to the GFWL the majority of games skip on text chat and either comply fully and leave it or put it in in such a limited capacity is useless. This leaves you pulling down the guide, going through your recent players list, finding the guy(s) you want to message and waiting on its slowpoke system to catch up.While I have never had a problem with the voice quality, it was improved in November during the last update.

Developers are the ones you should blame if they don't have text chat. Zombie Studios, makers of Blacklight: Tango Down, simply responded to the lack of text chat by saying it was too hard. You can't knock the service for ♥♥♥♥ty developers. Its networking is pretty dire too, reliant on a couple of a ports, you might think this is a great thing, not if you have an xbox 360 in your house, port conflicts ahoy. You must have a ♥♥♥♥ty router. I've had up to three computers connected at the same time before, without a single issue. No lag and no problems connecting.As for buying things from it, microsoft keep your card info on record for forever and a day, might not be so much of an issue for pure GFWL users but for 360 owners its a pain. You know, all services keep your card on record. It might not show up, but they are kept for somewhere around seven years. As others have said too theres a massive lack of anticheat and also the "report" system does nothing. Theres no GFWL enforcement team like on XBL. For the very vast majority GFWL games are P2P networking (yes im aware this has dedis), from experience they've all been pretty laggy too, even when playing a small RF:G game with a couple of mates.Anti-cheat exists. Timegate seems to like it pretty wall.

You lagging, again, comes down to your ♥♥♥♥ty connection. It is peer-to-peer for crying out loud. That is all you and your mates. Quite simply GFWL was built for a time when microsoft had the pet project of cross platform play, that was abandoned and left GFWL to rot and now theyre throwing bandaids on massive slice. I guess you can say that cross-platform is dead. It wouldn't be true. The last cross-platform game came out last year, BlazBlu. I suppose you could say that Microsoft themselves is done with it, at it would appear so, but Live Anywhere is just getting started. Why would ANYONE want this when you buy the game on steam when steam not only has a much more robust overlay/friends/anticheat/etc its more reliable and consistent too. You are paying for a game to have steam then extra bloat slapped on top. Steam is far from perfect, don't get me wrong, but GFWL makes it look like a saint. Because no everyone wants to use Steam.

NanoImp
04-28-2011, 03:10 AM
At least for digital releases, customers can choose which digital store and drm they want. When GFWL is part of the game no matter what... so much for choice.

With Steamworks games though, that could be a problem too. Still, Steam doesn't have a slow, clunky, one function at a time interface with annoying animations to slow it down more.

zerrok
04-28-2011, 03:24 AM
Let me make this very clear:

When you expect a company to be steam works, your actually asking a huge thing.

Here's the difference at the moment.

Game gets released on steam, steam distributes the game to the user, user buys, user plays and because they launch the game from steam, steam overlay is used, this can be used on any game if it is compatible, if you bought it on steam or not.

OR, steam are alongside the production of the game and have worked alongside the company to make it steam works. WHY on this earth do you expect a game on steam to have worked with steam? That's like saying...if this game was made by *so and so* it would of been a lot better. That's nice and all but a stupid claim, even more so since the game hasn't been released.

Do you actually know how many games are steam run? Actually not a lot...Source games, games made by valve and the select few, this isn't a average thing you know, the only games I can think of from the top of my head that are actually steam works fully, that use VAC servers and are NOT source engine games are Aliens Vs Predators and DoW2 Retri, not counting cloud works games that don't use dedicated servers, braid or what ever.

Now, say they do use steam, what happens then? People would probably complain because steam servers also have a lot of problems and do go down quite frequently, just like the GFWL service, people have problems with it.

NOW, look realistically at this: They released section 8 on GFWL, they're releasing section 8 prejudice on the XBOX 360 as downloadable content, why on earth would they split up the service and maintain TWO separate services for two versions of their game? The difference would be huge and FYI, steamworks doesn't work on a Xbox 360. I don't know about the playstation 3 release if there is one but if its different to the PC/xbox 360 release, they'd be maintaining 3 servers then.

No one's arguing about the bad features of GFWL, I dislike it myself but my point is; why the heck should people not buy this game just because of a service that has a less then good reputation on it? It doesn't control the servers, it doesn't control the game, at the moment all I see it as is a login system and a friends system, that is all. I understand if you physically cannot play the game due to errors then that would put you off the game but not even a quarter of the GFWL whiners have this problem, they just jump on the band wagon.

I'm not defending GFWL, i'm defending this games choice in using it and the fact it'll be good despite it. They'll have a contract with Microsoft, it is NOT easy to just turn around and say hey, we've removed ourselves from GFWL now, we'll just automatically get steamworks! No, this isn't what happens.

ArmorArmadillo, no ones a fangirl of the service, most of those points you've listed won't even affect section 8 prejudice at all or are just silly bashing points. Steam keeps your credit card details too, Networking isn't a issue for most of us and the game has its own servers, anticheat won't apply if they control their own servers, VOIP isn't too much of a problem but I heard something about in game VOIP outside of GFWL but if it is GFWL, I don't have a major issue because quite frankly, most games have crappy VOIP; the only game I know that has great VOIP is Global Agenda, enough said.

zerrok
04-28-2011, 03:29 AM
Simply put, why isn't this game steamworks? Cause steam didn't work with them to make the game and they already have a deal setup with Microsoft.

You can say *so and so* should of made *that game* and it would of been better all you wan't but it's a stupid claim.

I wish god worked together with TimeGate and had a joint Partnership with Charlie Sheen and used..GameSpy, then this game would of been good! Waaay better then GFWL right? I should of made this game, then it would of been better, I haven't played it yet because it's not out but I know it'll be bad because of GFWL and I refuse to buy/play it because of that. HURR FLIPPIN DURR.

NanoImp
04-28-2011, 03:43 AM
With GFWL said to be quite similar to Xbox Live... if using GFWL did something like party matchmaking, a feature that let's a small group of friends join a game/server together on the same team, that could be a good point.

Problem is, and this is from the official forums at some point, party matchmaking promotes team padding. Now, if party matchmaking was limited to 2-3 people only, it may not be bad at all. Squad oriented games are more fun with 2 other friends you can rely on.

Server admins, provided servers this time work without odd issues and down times, could set up the server to allow party matchmaking or not. Options are a good thing.

My point is, at the moment, GFWL doesn't really bring anything new, good, or refined to the table. The S8P server filter is very functional, but once the browser lists stuff, you can see a very consolefied server browser. Even if it's better than none...

When a 10 year old game like Tribes 2 has a more detailed/functional server browser... wow have the times changed. Then again, jetpacks are the old-new thing now. Oh wait... S8 and S8P don't have long flight times (thanks to how jets recharge)... They got jump jets instead.

Oh, there is one unmentioned good thing about GFWL. A list of recent gamers you met. Bravo?

If Timegate was contracted to use GFWL over Steamworks, I don't recall them ever declaring that. Timegate has said S8P is 100% funded by Timegate, which strongly implies Microsoft is not paying Timegate to use GFWL.

My guess is that since Timegate is such a small company, with 2 prior fps games that did poorly in the market (figure them out), their development team needs quick solutions which is going from Xbox Live to GFWL.

I honestly wonder what kind of internal debates they had...

zerrok
04-28-2011, 07:54 AM
With GFWL said to be quite similar to Xbox Live... if using GFWL did something like party matchmaking, a feature that let's a small group of friends join a game/server together on the same team, that could be a good point.

Problem is, and this is from the official forums at some point, party matchmaking promotes team padding. Now, if party matchmaking was limited to 2-3 people only, it may not be bad at all. Squad oriented games are more fun with 2 other friends you can rely on.

Server admins, provided servers this time work without odd issues and down times, could set up the server to allow party matchmaking or not. Options are a good thing.

My point is, at the moment, GFWL doesn't really bring anything new, good, or refined to the table. The S8P server filter is very functional, but once the browser lists stuff, you can see a very consolefied server browser. Even if it's better than none...

When a 10 year old game like Tribes 2 has a more detailed/functional server browser... wow have the times changed. Then again, jetpacks are the old-new thing now. Oh wait... S8 and S8P don't have long flight times (thanks to how jets recharge)... They got jump jets instead.

Oh, there is one unmentioned good thing about GFWL. A list of recent gamers you met. Bravo?

If Timegate was contracted to use GFWL over Steamworks, I don't recall them ever declaring that. Timegate has said S8P is 100% funded by Timegate, which strongly implies Microsoft is not paying Timegate to use GFWL.

My guess is that since Timegate is such a small company, with 2 prior fps games that did poorly in the market (figure them out), their development team needs quick solutions which is going from Xbox Live to GFWL.

I honestly wonder what kind of internal debates they had...

Well since their so small and their trying to make profits out of the Xbox 360 sale version, which is top seller for its market place, the most logical and easy thing for them to do would be to implement GFWL, even though they probably had partnerships with microsoft/contracts, sad to say if it has hurt sales because people are scared of it but from a gameplay prospective, it doesn't/barely changes anything.

These are all really good and bad points against or for GFWL they really are, they just don't seem that relevant at the end of the day because the game would be the same, the sad thing is the sales are hurt.

ArmorArmadillo
04-28-2011, 10:27 AM
Bravo vivid you dodged most of my points, bravo.

If you don't have a connection, you will be logged into offline mode giving you full access to your saves. There is no difference between an online profile in online mode and an online profile in offline mode. The difference occurs with actual different profiles, like local ones. Holy ♥♥♥♥, you mean you have to enter in information a whole one time? While I have never had a problem with the voice quality, it was improved in November during the last update.

Hurr durr durr durr, of course online profiles are online and offline are offline, thats pretty blatant. My point was that if you have an online profile and have downtime you are screwed, if you travel about a lot, you are screwed unless you use purely an offline profile. I can use my steam account online, if I have downtime I can swap to offline mode and carry on where I left off. My other point about the whole profile bit lacked time scale, that might be a 1 time process but its a LONG one time process, GFWL is so long winded and slow in its processes its ridiculous, just as it is with its profiles and saving, I can login as my regular gamertag after reinstalling and copy my saves over and nope it won't use them. A couple of games do like fallout 3, but thats it.


Developers are the ones you should blame if they don't have text chat. Zombie Studios, makers of Blacklight: Tango Down, simply responded to the lack of text chat by saying it was too hard. You can't knock the service for ♥♥♥♥ty developers. You must have a ♥♥♥♥ty router. I've had up to three computers connected at the same time before, without a single issue. No lag and no problems connecting.You know, all services keep your card on record. It might not show up, but they are kept for somewhere around seven years. Anti-cheat exists. Timegate seems to like it pretty wall.

Actually i'll let you go look up the GFWL spec, it has heavy emphasis on having comms be voice only. Its too hard to code in a chat box, chat boxes which have existed since the earliest of online games? ok... Black light never sold well, i wonder why...

FYI my router is a very good router, its GFWL (and xbl) and their crappy port systems which do it, even 2 PC's using GFWL on the same network at the same time it clogs it up and makes "open nat" an impossibility, "open nat" which just happens to have an awful lot depend on it, no open, expect only a few online games showing up. As for the anticheat... sure it exists, just like it existed in RF:G and GTA4 and many other online GFLW games which is why the devs have to release bot breaking patches in a hope to stop it, and oh look, noone banned and oh look they just updated their cheats around it and hopped on. Do GFWL care? No. Of course timegate are loving it, theyre loving the fat paycheck they were given when microsoft bribed them into using GFWL. I wouldn't be surprised if timegate give you a free copy to try save a few sales.


You lagging, again, comes down to your ♥♥♥♥ty connection. It is peer-to-peer for crying out loud. That is all you and your mates. I guess you can say that cross-platform is dead. It wouldn't be true. The last cross-platform game came out last year, BlazBlu. I suppose you could say that Microsoft themselves is done with it, at it would appear so, but Live Anywhere is just getting started. Because no everyone wants to use Steam.

If i was host the lag would be my issue, but out of a group of me+5 friends trying to get a game going on RF:G and EVERY game lags no matter who we try to make host and we all live in the UK... yeah its GFWL's issue, we could make our own TF2/CS:S/etc servers and not lag, even other games, yup its def GFWL. It might be P2P but GFWL sits right in the middle like a relay, ever tried sending files over windows live messenger/MSN messenger? your file goes through microsoft first.

If you want to love up GFWL you are welcome to it, theres plenty of it to go around to make up for everyone who hates it. Timegate are about to find this out again, which is a shame, but hey don't listen to your community and bam this is what happens. I'd be surprised if this game still has a community left after 3months.

zerrok
04-28-2011, 12:24 PM
Actually i'll let you go look up the GFWL spec, it has heavy emphasis on having comms be voice only. Its too hard to code in a chat box, chat boxes which have existed since the earliest of online games? ok... Black light never sold well, i wonder why...


Oh wow, that's a shame Dawn of War 2 must of had chat removed then right? Difficult stuff.

Look mate, I didn't wan't to attract the GFWL hate club for you to completely bash it to pieces but almost every point you list isn't relevant to this game and won't affect it.

It's also mostly based on your experience and not what others experience because I sure hell don't have as many problems as you have or maybe i'd be the one going crazy over a login system on a soon to be released game that'll obviously ruin the game.

VividNinjaScar
04-28-2011, 12:29 PM
Bravo vivid you dodged most of my points, bravo. I wasn't aware that I did. I'll try not to this time. Hurr durr durr durr, of course online profiles are online and offline are offline, thats pretty blatant. My point was that if you have an online profile and have downtime you are screwed, if you travel about a lot, you are screwed unless you use purely an offline profile. I can use my steam account online, if I have downtime I can swap to offline mode and carry on where I left off. Online profiles all have an offline mode. If you do not have a connection, you are automatically put into offline mode and you are still able to access your saves. Offline mode works the exact same way it does on Steam, except it is automatic when you aren't able to connect, rather than a choice. I did not dodge this point. My other point about the whole profile bit lacked time scale, that might be a 1 time process but its a LONG one time process, GFWL is so long winded and slow in its processes its ridiculous, just as it is with its profiles and saving, I can login as my regular gamertag after reinstalling and copy my saves over and nope it won't use them. A couple of games do like fallout 3, but thats it. Yes, it does take about a minute to finish, but that isn't a big deal. You will only see the 'Downloading Profile' screen after you reinstall, and you will only see it for the first game. Granted, if you are impatient, this is horrible. I don't see it as an issue at all, being that you only see it once. Actually i'll let you go look up the GFWL spec, it has heavy emphasis on having comms be voice only. Its too hard to code in a chat box, chat boxes which have existed since the earliest of online games? ok... Black light never sold well, i wonder why... Voice chat is built into the API. Text chat has to be added by itself. You can't blame the service for lazy developers. That just isn't how it works. Text chat must be added to non-GFWL games as well, they are just more inclined to do it because there isn't the voice chat to fall back on. FYI my router is a very good router, its GFWL (and xbl) and their crappy port systems which do it, even 2 PC's using GFWL on the same network at the same time it clogs it up and makes "open nat" an impossibility, "open nat" which just happens to have an awful lot depend on it, no open, expect only a few online games showing up.At the moment, I have two PCs hooked up to the same router. My wife and I were playing Age of Empires Online together without any issues or lag. My NAT is still strict. Finding other games could be difficult, but that is why you are supposed to open the ports or enable uPnP. So basically, it is on your side.As for the anticheat... sure it exists, just like it existed in RF:G and GTA4 and many other online GFLW games which is why the devs have to release bot breaking patches in a hope to stop it, and oh look, noone banned and oh look they just updated their cheats around it and hopped on. Do GFWL care? No. Of course timegate are loving it, theyre loving the fat paycheck they were given when microsoft bribed them into using GFWL. I wouldn't be surprised if timegate give you a free copy to try save a few sales. I am not sure about the specifics of anticheat, I just know that it does exsist and that Timegate decided to use GFWL based on that, and not a paycheck from Microsoft. If i was host the lag would be my issue, but out of a group of me+5 friends trying to get a game going on RF:G and EVERY game lags no matter who we try to make host and we all live in the UK... yeah its GFWL's issue, we could make our own TF2/CS:S/etc servers and not lag, even other games, yup its def GFWL. The issue is either with you our your friends. GFWL has nothing to do with you lagging ingame. It might be P2P but GFWL sits right in the middle like a relay, ever tried sending files over windows live messenger/MSN messenger? your file goes through microsoft first. Once you are connected to other players, GFWL steps aside. You don't go through Microsoft then. I'm unaware of how it works on Messenger, I don't use it, but it does not work how you described it on GFWL. If you want to love up GFWL you are welcome to it, theres plenty of it to go around to make up for everyone who hates it. Timegate are about to find this out again, which is a shame, but hey don't listen to your community and bam this is what happens. I'd be surprised if this game still has a community left after 3months.
You know, for a $15 game they are awful high on the top sellers list. I think they will be fine.

kn00tcn
04-28-2011, 07:05 PM
msn only does that if upnp is off on either the sender or receiver (also it randomly picks ports every time, so you cant just forward)

chriskrum
04-30-2011, 03:30 PM
I own two games with GFWL: Batman Arkham Asylum and GTA.

My experiences with those was poor enough that I will not by another GFWL title. Those who defend GFWL are either mostly console gamers enamored with their achievement scores or haven't owned a GFWL title in the past.

chriskrum
04-30-2011, 03:40 PM
Oh, and the only thing that could make GFWL remotely worth the irritation to me is if it would let PC players play against Console gamers--centuries ago this was supposed to be a feature but MS quickly discovered that the players with a mouse dominated the thumbstick players.

Sad, because I have an Xbox 360 and a gaming computer--I'd have been willing to use a thumbstick on my computer to keep things even when playing against friends--we're not all hung up on achievements.

Sifer2
04-30-2011, 04:34 PM
I own two games with GFWL: Batman Arkham Asylum and GTA.

My experiences with those was poor enough that I will not by another GFWL title. Those who defend GFWL are either mostly console gamers enamored with their achievement scores or haven't owned a GFWL title in the past.


From what I hear GFWL did suck a ton in those games. I will say though the service didn't give me much issue in Dawn of War 2. It was annoying to have to log into it along with Steam but aside from that no problems. So it can vary by game.

It's disappointing they didn't go with Steamworks as its a better service but its not going to change at this point no matter how much people complain. So its a choice of play the game. Or not play the game. For 13 dollars I decided to play it since it looks fun.

SapientWolf
04-30-2011, 07:02 PM
I own two games with GFWL: Batman Arkham Asylum and GTA.

My experiences with those was poor enough that I will not by another GFWL title. Those who defend GFWL are either mostly console gamers enamored with their achievement scores or haven't owned a GFWL title in the past.
Or they owned some GFWL titles and didn't experience the same problems you did. The biggest problem I had with the last Section 8 release is that I still had to have the DVD in the drive to play on top of GFWL. That was an incomprehensibly stupid decision on the part of the publisher.

X-Dolphin
04-30-2011, 08:37 PM
I own 7 GFWL games and I've never had a problem, indicating that chriskrum's statement is an inaccurate overgeneralization.

Kyorisu
05-01-2011, 01:18 AM
GFWL is an outdated piece of crap. It hasn't got a single thing going for it.

zerrok
05-01-2011, 05:31 AM
I own two games with GFWL: Batman Arkham Asylum and GTA.

My experiences with those was poor enough that I will not by another GFWL title. Those who defend GFWL are either mostly console gamers enamored with their achievement scores or haven't owned a GFWL title in the past.

I have both titles, including Lost Planet, Devil May Cry 4, Dead rising 2, DOW2/Chaos rising, Bioshock 1/2, Jericho, Shadowrun, Universe at War, Resident evil 5, Just Cause 2, Hellgate London and Street Fighter IV.

I have never had a problem with such games, apart from Lost Planet 2 actually on a old gaming laptop I had ages ago where I couldn't type my password in but it was fixed.

I am also not a console gamer, although I own all major consoles I have a gaming PC and I am not biased in the game just because of a Gamertag, personally I do think GFWL isn't that good but do I think it's game breaking/strong enough for me not to buy a game that has it? No.

The only thing that annoyed me about GFWL is that the majority are console ports and do not have Text communication on a PC, which is silly. This upcoming game is said to be not a console port, enhanced for the PC and have Text chat available, why would I complain that I need to login with a certain service?

You're opinion is biased and I certainly don't care about Achievements, many people have 0 problems with GFWL so don't generalize.

Kyorisu
05-01-2011, 06:31 AM
zerrok if you've used GFWL as you say you have then surely you realise how useless it is.

UltimateGrr
05-01-2011, 01:52 PM
zerrok if you've used GFWL as you say you have then surely you realise how useless it is.

It's about as usefull as the Steam overlay, if we're comparing apples to apples. What steam has over GfWL is the store button and bigger selection. The only thing Steam does that GfWL doesn't is instant messaging (which is a feature i rarely use anyway), though GfWL's ability to send offline voice messages to people is rather nice.

NanoImp
05-01-2011, 02:05 PM
Steam has its ingame browser. That always comes in handy. I use the IM feature a lot, especially in games like DOW2 that keep having disconnecting issues thanks to GFWL. Troubleshooting with ports and whatnot never solved anything for me or my friends. I find it odd I totally forgot about that until now.

I have already given props to GFWL's mail features, recent player list, and 1 free name change.

I will however say that GFWL's opening and closing animation, and the animations when checking mail or the friend list is one annoying (censored).

zerrok
05-01-2011, 02:14 PM
Steam has its ingame browser. That always comes in handy. I use the IM feature a lot, especially in games like DOW2 that keep having disconnecting issues thanks to GFWL. Troubleshooting with ports and whatnot never solved anything for me or my friends. I find it odd I totally forgot about that until now.

I have already given props to GFWL's mail features, recent player list, and 1 free name change.

I will however say that GFWL's opening and closing animation, and the animations when checking mail or the friend list is one annoying (censored).

Steams browser feature is utter useless, it's outdated and very laggy, unless they've improved it recently. Since I have a good computer, it's usually faster for me to minimise and multitask a browser instead of using steams browser due to how slow it is.

The chatting with tab + shift is great though and we'd have this on any games that we launch with steam.

zerrok if you've used GFWL as you say you have then surely you realise how useless it is.

Define useless. If it's so useless, why is it a problem to me to play a game that has GFWL then? I'd just ignore it, it doesn't restrict me from playing. I'm not saying GFWL is good, let me remind you, i'm saying why would having GFWL stop me from playing Section 8? If it's useless then it's useless, it's a useless feature that won't bother me much as I shall be ignoring it and only use it when necessary, logging in or what not.

NanoImp
05-01-2011, 02:25 PM
I OCed my ram to 1744 mhz with 800rpm quiet top case fans. Helps a lot with multitasking, minimizing and opening games, etc. Combined with a Patriot Inferno SSD, I experience the luxury of PC gaming. Although I am well aware not everyone can afford to go that route.

To the one guy that said GFWL runs slow on my computer... Nice try.

Anyways, I could minimize a game to use Firefox, but I do like just opening Steam to check 1 or 2 sites depending on what I am waiting for.

Options are always a good thing.

zerrok
05-01-2011, 02:38 PM
I OCed my ram to 1744 mhz with 800rpm quiet top case fans. Helps a lot with multitasking, minimizing and opening games, etc. Combined with a Patriot Inferno SSD, I experience the luxury of PC gaming. Although I am well aware not everyone can afford to go that route.

To the one guy that said GFWL runs slow on my computer... Nice try.

Anyways, I could minimize a game to use Firefox, but I do like just opening Steam to check 1 or 2 sites depending on what I am waiting for.

Options are always a good thing.

True, too bad the options are slower though, steam browser is just known for being slow, you can't open it during source games or they'll crash either, dunno about other games but I know it's notorious for them.

NanoImp
05-01-2011, 02:51 PM
True, too bad the options are slower though, steam browser is just known for being slow, you can't open it during source games or they'll crash either, dunno about other games but I know it's notorious for them.

As far as I can say for the Steam browser, I am fortunate enough to have minimized its speed flaws and have not experienced any of the notorious issues, yet.

Never hurts to be prepared for a game crashing when using Steam's browser though.

I really recommend more people going with SSDs, even the cheap ones. The fast boot times really help when a game hard crashes your entire computer. Like DOW2 and GFWL after a sudden disconnect...

Kyorisu
05-01-2011, 07:43 PM
I'm not saying GFWL is good, let me remind you, i'm saying why would having GFWL stop me from playing Section 8? If it's useless then it's useless, it's a useless feature that won't bother me much as I shall be ignoring it and only use it when necessary, logging in or what not.

Because you may not have a problem with it but a lot of others do which is directly impacting the success of this title. GFWL hurts PC games (Microsft doesn't give a damn about the PC), it's competitor Steam not only does everything GFWL does but it does it better and without failing horribly.

Section 8 is a great game it's just a shame they chose to bundle it with such crapware.

/rage face.

A classic example of why Steamworks is superior if used correctly (some devs manage to ♥♥♥♥ it up). I want to play a game so I launch it and join a server. Friend X sees I'm playing a game and hops on TS and uses the friendslist to easily launch the game and directly join the server I'm playing on. Can GFWL do that? God no.

True, too bad the options are slower though, steam browser is just known for being slow, you can't open it during source games or they'll crash either, dunno about other games but I know it's notorious for them.

It's not great but crashes? Never crashed here. The Steam overlay has everything on screen unlike GFWL with it's tabbed sitting at the top of the screen sillyness. I can have multiple chats going on with a webpage open if I want.

Here's my recent GFWL experience. I got an invite for AOE Online a while ago and decided to fire it up the other day. I download the GFWL client add the key and download the client. So far so good I've got GFWL installed, I'm logged in and added the key for the game. What next? Launch the game and it ask AGAIN for the information I gave it two seconds ago and to add insult to injury it won't let my copy/paste my bloody password.

There's just something about such backwards broken console crap that finds a way to jarate me off no matter what function it is performing. I know I'm not the only one that feels this way. GFWL does nothing but infuriate people.

I have prejudice on my Steam account right now and I've got several friends interested in it and I swear if something goes wrong on launch related to GFWL in any way shape or form I will not be recommending they buy this. I don't mind wasting $13 on this but I'll be damned if I let my friends waste their money on something that includes software I've loathed for the entire time it's existed if they still can't get it bloody right. It's not ♥♥♥♥ing hard M$.

On the other hand if nothing bad happens I will recommend the game despite GFWL having it's ugly claws imbedded. I can live with it's existence using alternative software to communicate and coordinate with friends. It's just sad GFWL doesn't strive to perform those functions.

TLDR People hate GFWL for the same reason people hate the Office Ribbon.

X-Dolphin
05-01-2011, 09:20 PM
To be fair, every complaint about GFWL not letting people play their games can be said of Steam. A lot of people from the Civilization community were angry because Steam either didn't enter their information correctly, locked them out of their game, or crashed when they played. And there were many complaints about Steam Support and requiring days for account problems to be resolved. A similar thing happened with SupCom2. Many players were mad that Steam had to run and monitor their playing habits and act as DRM. I fortunately have not had problems with either Steam or GFWL (no problems playing AoEO beta). For the beta, I only had to enter my key once in the client, not in-game.

Kyorisu
05-01-2011, 09:47 PM
Steam either didn't enter their information correctly

huh?

locked them out of their game

2Ks fault.

or crashed when they played.

2Ks fault.

Also I hate 2K with a passion :D

And there were many complaints about Steam Support and requiring days for account problems to be resolved.

Steam support lacks professionalism and doesn't seem to care for the end user. Robot responses are not nice Valve.

A similar thing happened with SupCom2. Many players were mad that Steam had to run and monitor their playing habits and act as DRM.

Publisher decision because that certainly sounds like it was out of Valve's hands. All you've done is provided instances of games that have had problems that just happen to be Steamworks titles. Like I said in my previous post devs somehow manage to completely ♥♥♥♥ it up. Not fundamental issues with Steam itself and certainly not as bad as GFWL problems.

Alienware Gamer
05-01-2011, 10:04 PM
I own two games with GFWL: Batman Arkham Asylum and GTA.

My experiences with those was poor enough that I will not by another GFWL title. Those who defend GFWL are either mostly console gamers enamored with their achievement scores or haven't owned a GFWL title in the past.Your loss see you then ...... & your totally wrong as there are so many PC gamers who have used the GFWL service since 2007 & have pretty much all the GFWL games & never had any major issues. Once you have ensured your router is setup correctly that's it the rest is pretty seamless.

Its a fact that the vast majority of GFWL issues are user security/firewall/NAT related or caused by lazy developers not MS or GFWL but they get the blame from gamers who just blindly jump on the anti-GFWL bandwagon which is constantly fuelled by people dragging up ancient articles which just highlight the poor state of modern game journalism!

One of the things I love about GFWL is that it prevents pirates from stealing PC games & playing them online as SSA has made this impossible now & remains unbroken since Sept 2009 on SSA titles which use online features of GFWL. Its not technically possible to protect any SP modes of any game on any platform.

Another thing I love about it is that the PC continues to get some decent games which use GFWL & would probably not have done so if GFWL was not around as why would publishers/developers pay to support another service when GFWL is 85% of the X360 code they only need to implement 15% as opposed to 100% with Steamworks. Its nothing to do with MS paying publishers to use the service at all as they don't apparently!!! Shock horror publishers/developers freely chose to use GFWL as it makes business sense to do so!! The following 3 big titles are all using it this month alone:

Section 8 Prejudice
Fable3
Dirt3

Then Capcom are rolling out 3 big games from July-Dec all using GFWL & MS are also bring at least 2 big games to it this year if all goes well FlightX + AOE Online are coming in 2011.

THQ only dropped GFWL as it was too expensive to support both Steamworks & GFWL & they should never ever have done so in the first place it was a stupid decision so they drop GFWL & now have split their own community into 2 & still have issues! Go figure.......

Alienware Gamer
05-01-2011, 10:13 PM
I disagree with both of you.
I lost 0 save games with an offline profile.
Switching to online profile, I lost 3 save games from 3 different games.
Then the fun REALLY started.
I installed a new game, played fine in online mode.
1/2 way through the game, I lost the save (I think there was a GFWL update, and somehow it hosed my game save). After that, I lost the same games save 2 more times.
I also lost 2 of the others save games (probably same reason, to that 1 update) when I finally went back to play them. I had issues with the save again, on 1 of them until the day I uninstalled both the game and GFWL.

And, yes, I legally own all 4 games.
Bioshock
Bioshock 2
Flatout 2 UC
Batmann AA

As for playing offline, in online account, I tried that once.
Lost all of my saves for that game too.

So, screw GFWL.
I wont buy anything that has it.
And, no, I dont pirate them either. Your lost save game issues are nothing to do with GFWL its your poor choice in trying to mix n match online/offline profiles. Blame Rocksteady for encrypting PC game saves to prevent gamerscore hacking & blame 2K for the same reason. GFWL does not encrypt gamesaves at all the developers chose to use this feature! I also wish developers would not encrypt game saves but sadly they do.

Its not rocket science!!! use an offline profile & play the SP game to 100% but do not expect to be able to earn achievements or carry this progress over to an online profile as that would defeat the reason why offline/online profiles exist in the first place!

No MP based game content is obviously playable on any offline profile or ever likely to be on Steamworks or GFWL!!

Tufelhunden
05-01-2011, 10:16 PM
Seriously? There are people going to miss out on a very fun game, priced at $15 mind you and with full features due to GFWL.

Here's your sign.

Alienware Gamer
05-01-2011, 10:23 PM
Because its broken.

http://www.bit-tech.net/columns/2009/01/31/this-was-meant-to-be-a-fallout-3-dlc-review/1 Yep that's right 1 piece of DLC for Fallout 3 in Jan 2009 had issues on launch so it must still be broken over 2 years later..............its not like other online services have not had the same issues since then is it!

wiq
05-01-2011, 10:42 PM
never tryd it , will make my onw mind but if it sucks it sure will be the last time

Kyorisu
05-01-2011, 10:42 PM
its not like other online services have not had the same issues since then is it!

Oh they do but they get fixed. GFWL is still the same mediocre piece of crap it was on day #1. Microsoft simply does not care about the PC market. Their current efforts are focused at the casual Facebook gamer ffs. GFWL is never going to get better.

Alienware Gamer
05-01-2011, 11:02 PM
Oh they do but they get fixed. GFWL is still the same mediocre piece of crap it was on day #1. Microsoft simply does not care about the PC market. Their current efforts are focused at the casual Facebook gamer ffs. GFWL is never going to get better. What you mean just like they fixed the Fallout 3 DLC issue in a day or so!! I agree with you MS could do a lot more for PC gaming but they offer a free service & do not own Steam like Valve do so what commercially do MS have to gain by suddenly spending millions on PC gaming??? How would you explain that to your investors!!

I mean I can see them announcing more games @ E3 coming to PC & they have said GFWL is getting more investment/improvements but apart from that its always a frustrating drip feed.....

The reality is that PC gaming is a hardcore gamer niche & has been for several years the mainstream is with consoles & console multiplatform game designs if anyone made a PC exclusive game it would not get the developement budget back unless it was exceptional!

Look on the upside at least GFWL ensures many big budget games come to PC which would otherwise not get released so for that alone I think GFWL should be thanked for!

zerrok
05-02-2011, 06:51 AM
I don't see what people are failing to understand...

Why are you comparing GFWL to Steamworks? As explained in a earlier post, it's not as simple as (GFWL sucks, why don't they use steamworks?). You have to have form a Partnership with Steam to do this while they already have a contract with microsoft, i'm pretty sure they'd like to stick with that.

People are also failing to understand that GFWL will not make this game worse. Why do you think that removing the service will immediately improve the game? Maybe people who PHYSICALLY CAN'T run the game because GFWL breaks for them for what ever reason may be affected but I honestly don't think this is as many people as claimed to be and there are measures to fix these problems, people just aren't taking them.

So, say they remove GFWL, why will the actual game be improved? I'm talking about the physical game itself here, not the login system or what ever people are thinking, the game itself, gameplay and all that will be the same REGARDLESS of GFWL and I won't be as stupid as some and refuse to buy a game because of a login/message/friends service.

shrinkshooter
05-02-2011, 09:38 AM
things

Listen, dude, I'm not sure if you're trolling us hard or what. I read your Op and thought "well, that's not a bad question," and I continued to read the thread, hoping that you were a reasonable person simply looking for some explanations.

I was wrong. Every complaint anyone in this thread has about GFWL, regardless of how genuine an issue it is, you keep dismissing outright as "nuh uh that's not a problem." At this point it's clear that you are, for Chuck Norris only KNOWS what reason, hardcore defensive about GFWL. Fanatical, even. Perhaps even a fanboi, although I could never have imagined GFWL would have those.

When a previous user posted a list of issues he's had with GFWL off the top of his head, what was your argument? "Well these are just issues YOU had!" Sorry to level logic in your direction, but THAT IS THE POINT. You gauge the success or lack thereof of a system by the issues that people have with it. More people have far more issues with the GFWL system than with steamworks (you only need to look at the sheer volume of complaints about GFWL anywhere in internetland compared to other systems), which means that the system itself fails the end user more often.

TL;DR problems that individuals have with the system ARE problems with the system itself. No stop being a crazy GFWL zealot and let your thread die. You will obviously not cease with this "THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT" insanity, and I am certain my words will fall on blind eyes, so I don't know why I bothered.

==edit==

Also of note, I have already purchased this game. I am not holding out on it because of GFWL, even though I have had patching issues with it myself in the past. I don't think it will personally give me any problems (knock on wood), but you cannot simply disregard all the legitimate problems people do have with the system through no fault of their own.

Kidbanhammer
05-02-2011, 12:04 PM
I don't see what people are failing to understand...

Why are you comparing GFWL to Steamworks? As explained in a earlier post, it's not as simple as (GFWL sucks, why don't they use steamworks?). You have to have form a Partnership with Steam to do this while they already have a contract with microsoft, i'm pretty sure they'd like to stick with that.

People are also failing to understand that GFWL will not make this game worse. Why do you think that removing the service will immediately improve the game? Maybe people who PHYSICALLY CAN'T run the game because GFWL breaks for them for what ever reason may be affected but I honestly don't think this is as many people as claimed to be and there are measures to fix these problems, people just aren't taking them.

So, say they remove GFWL, why will the actual game be improved? I'm talking about the physical game itself here, not the login system or what ever people are thinking, the game itself, gameplay and all that will be the same REGARDLESS of GFWL and I won't be as stupid as some and refuse to buy a game because of a login/message/friends service.


You're a moron fan-boy. Go away.

If a good 40 of my friends can't use GFWL and It takes 3 minutes to log me in for no reason I'm not going to buy it. The game is made much worse by using a system that makes it impossible to play online. There's a reason why Section 8 is selling so badly on steam, people are talking with their wallets here.

Will the game itself be terrible? Nope. But there's no point buying it if I can't go online and can't play with friends. SteamWORKS. Games for windows live does not work.

VividNinjaScar
05-02-2011, 05:24 PM
If that is the case, your friends are morons and your connection is ♥♥♥♥.

Kyorisu
05-02-2011, 06:20 PM
so what commercially do MS have to gain by suddenly spending millions on PC gaming??? How would you explain that to your investors!!

You realize MS runs a competitor to Steam one that fairs pretty poorly. If GFWL was a viable alternative to Steam and more developers used it and sold on Microsofts Store MS would be making a killing. Instead were seeing more developers who previously used GFWL switching away from it to great success.

Why are you comparing GFWL to Steamworks? As explained in a earlier post, it's not as simple as (GFWL sucks, why don't they use steamworks?). You have to have form a Partnership with Steam to do this while they already have a contract with microsoft, i'm pretty sure they'd like to stick with that.

We don't know any of these details and why anyone would sign a contract for a release outside of Xbox land (They got it first that seems like a pretty sweet deal for Microsoft, now leave the PC version alone). As for a partnership with Steam? No you don't really have to do anything special. Prejudice is already sold on Steam that's 90% of the way there. Steamworks is a free service provided by Valve any developer can use it.

If Uber can do it with MNC and support the PC version like they have then so can Timegate.

Spekingur
05-02-2011, 06:56 PM
It is good because you can have cheevos linked to your XBox Account (and thus increase your GamerScore).

Kyorisu
05-02-2011, 07:08 PM
It is good because you can have cheevos linked to your XBox Account (and thus increase your GamerScore).

How is that a good thing? Gamerscore doesn't have any value or meaning. If you wanted gamerscore go buy a bunch of bargain bin xbox games.

Dirtyboy
05-02-2011, 07:22 PM
I've had two late-game saves (Batman: Arkham Asylum and Fallout 3) corrupted by updates on GFWL locking up. I have little to no problems with Steam, but GFWL just seems to be more of an annoyance than any kind of benefit. I prefer not having two game overlays active at one time, and could care less about achievements. The GFWL store is also terrible, and it doesn't seem like they are serious at all about making it better.

X-Dolphin
05-02-2011, 09:46 PM
The problem here is that PC is already niche gaming, at least in the form we are discussing here. The market for console games is far larger and MS can make a hell of a lot more money by investing in their XBox Live service. GFWL brings in $0 per year through the service alone. XLive brings in around 15 million X $60 a year, which is about $750 million (analyst estimates place XBox revenue at around $1 billion a year). Follow the money.

Is GFWL progressing too slowly? Of course it is. Should and could it be better by now? Definitely. But financially it pales in comparison to the revenue potential of XLive.

zerrok
05-03-2011, 12:17 AM
Listen, dude, I'm not sure if you're trolling us hard or what. I read your Op and thought "well, that's not a bad question," and I continued to read the thread, hoping that you were a reasonable person simply looking for some explanations.

I was wrong. Every complaint anyone in this thread has about GFWL, regardless of how genuine an issue it is, you keep dismissing outright as "nuh uh that's not a problem." At this point it's clear that you are, for Chuck Norris only KNOWS what reason, hardcore defensive about GFWL. Fanatical, even. Perhaps even a fanboi, although I could never have imagined GFWL would have those.

When a previous user posted a list of issues he's had with GFWL off the top of his head, what was your argument? "Well these are just issues YOU had!" Sorry to level logic in your direction, but THAT IS THE POINT. You gauge the success or lack thereof of a system by the issues that people have with it. More people have far more issues with the GFWL system than with steamworks (you only need to look at the sheer volume of complaints about GFWL anywhere in internetland compared to other systems), which means that the system itself fails the end user more often.

TL;DR problems that individuals have with the system ARE problems with the system itself. No stop being a crazy GFWL zealot and let your thread die. You will obviously not cease with this "THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT" insanity, and I am certain my words will fall on blind eyes, so I don't know why I bothered.

==edit==

Also of note, I have already purchased this game. I am not holding out on it because of GFWL, even though I have had patching issues with it myself in the past. I don't think it will personally give me any problems (knock on wood), but you cannot simply disregard all the legitimate problems people do have with the system through no fault of their own.

Yet again people, like yourself are dismissing my point.

I am not disregarding the fact that GFWL has problems, I myself dislike it. This game has moved away from GFWL servers and now supports dedicated servers. The game has chat systems installed and is enhanced for the PC compared to the xbox 360 version, since most GFWL games are ports.

Now, there are problems with GFWL but most of them are situational to few individuals or to certain games. Most points don't apply to this game simply because it seems they've taken steps to overcome servers, chat etc. The only thing the player may have a issue with in this game is the login system because you have to login to GFWL to play.

Obviously not being able to play on a GFWL game is a excusable problem for not wanting the game but my point is, again, why would having GFWL break the game so much to the point where people refuse to buy it or play it, simply because its GFWL? Yes, if you physically can't play due to network problems then that's fair enough but other then those people, most don't have a issue.

Yes, there are problems with it and, let me stress again, if YOU CANNOT PHYSICALLY PLAY THE GAME, that's a problem but that's also a small percentage of people, people that probably still have older versions and files of previous GFWL installations and or just network issues due to what ever. I'm addressing the other percentage of people, I obviously wouldn't of bought the game if GFWL has never worked for me before but it does.

Why the hell would I be a Hammer Legion Member of GFWL? Lol, again let me stress how much I dislike it but people like to put all the blame on GFWL, whereas I can see there are other factors to take into place (such as companies not bothering to enhance PC versions and thus, most GFWL games being a console port).

Yes, GFWL hurts sales but people talk like (GFWL = BAD GAME) where im disappointed because I think the game looks great and I know a service doesn't make the actual game worse, do extra features get added if you remove GFWL? I'm supporting section 8 here, not GFWL.

Kyorisu
05-03-2011, 01:03 AM
GFWL brings in $0 per year through the service alone. XLive brings in around 15 million X $60 a year, which is about $750 million (analyst estimates place XBox revenue at around $1 billion a year). Follow the money.

PSN says hi. Well it would if it wasn't bed ridden from being impaled with several deadly sharp hacker spears.

Is GFWL progressing too slowly? Of course it is. Should and could it be better by now? Definitely. But financially it pales in comparison to the revenue potential of XLive.

We aren't talking the difference between making money and not making money. What we are talking about is the difference in profit. The xbots are willing to pay for a walled garden and pay for additional services on top as well as buying all kinds of DLC packs. Consumers are stupid.

Still the facts are Microsoft is actually spending money on GFWL and trying to improve it but not in a good way. They want the xbot experience on the PC. For GFWL to get better people would have to be spending money on it which is exactly why it should be avoided like the bloody plague. If you're a PC gamer you don't want this ♥♥♥♥ to get bigger than it is.

I only bought Prejudice because of the price if it was closer to full retail there is no way in hell I'd pay. I dislike the idea of supporting games that use such utter crap. The last GFWL title I bought was a key for Fallout 3 at $10. In F3 you could disable GFWL and completely ignore it.

Yes, GFWL hurts sales but people talk like (GFWL = BAD GAME) where im disappointed because I think the game looks great and I know a service doesn't make the actual game worse, do extra features get added if you remove GFWL? I'm supporting section 8 here, not GFWL.

A bad service can make a good game worse. Prejudice isn't even out yet anyway (beta doesn't count). I expect something to go horribly wrong. Just think we wouldn't be having this discussion if GFWL was trashed for something that doesn't suck.

SEIV
05-03-2011, 01:26 AM
I almost not to buy this game because of GFWL but I want to play this game so.. yeah lol

I hate GFWL because the login time is kind of slow to me, I already logged into steam and have to login to GFWL again? argh.. even it took a few seconds but it is very unnecessary.

and the update is very annoying and slow.. bad service, Microsoft trying to be steam but failed.

shrinkshooter
05-03-2011, 08:14 AM
Now, there are problems with GFWL but most of them are situational to few individuals or to certain games.

And you know this how? That's the whole point of this thread: it all depends on the DEGREE to which your statement is true or false. If only a few people, relatively speaking, have issues with GFWL, and they are "situational" and not a serious issue to a majority of the userbase, then yes, GFWL is fine, as you cannot expect a service to be perfect everywhere all the time.

HOWEVER, your statement could be incredibly untrue, which seems to be the case given the two points of suggested evidence already present in this thread, which is 1) lots of people complain about it, so there's got to be more good reasons for doing so than there aren't, and 2) devs have been choosing to move AWAY from GFWL because of its relative unpopularity with the users.

How do you explain those? And how can you make such a "matter of fact" statement about GFWL, its problems (or lack thereof), and its users? Where is your source and/or how do you know? Because it sounds like you're simply saying this out of nowhere to support your case.

why would having GFWL break the game so much to the point where people refuse to buy it or play it, simply because its GFWL?

It depends on your amount of patience. Some, like me, can sit at their PCs for 10 minutes or so waiting for a program just to make sure whether it's suddenly screwed itself over or if it's still working. GFWL can give any one person any number of issues, and for some people the frequency at which these issues occur is just not worth the irritation and aggravation they experience with the system. So, they simply choose not to buy the game. Like you said yourself, it has nothing to do with the game itself.

"It's not personal, it's business."

Yes, GFWL hurts sales but people talk like (GFWL = BAD GAME)

No, people talk like GFWL = GFWL. If I told you "hey, take this awesome Ferrari and have a blast! But be warned that if you drive this, a spike strip somewhere in the road will engage and blow out your tires," would you buy it? There's nothing wrong with the car itself, it's sleek and shiny and awesome, but there's no point in getting it if your going to have this constant irritation that could pop up at any time and could be anything from just a blown tire to a full-out crash. And no, not a perfect analogy because GFWL isn't guaranteed to fail, but for a lot of people it does it too frequently and so they'd rather purchase the game somehow without it.

Listen, I want people to buy and play the game just as much as you do. S8 had phenomenal potential and yet the userbase was virtually nonexistent. I don't want that to happen again. But if people choose not to purchase the game due to a system required to play it, and a faulty one at that, but not due to anything about the game itself, I won't fault them for that.

zerrok
05-03-2011, 02:38 PM
And you know this how? That's the whole point of this thread: it all depends on the DEGREE to which your statement is true or false. If only a few people, relatively speaking, have issues with GFWL, and they are "situational" and not a serious issue to a majority of the userbase, then yes, GFWL is fine, as you cannot expect a service to be perfect everywhere all the time.

HOWEVER, your statement could be incredibly untrue, which seems to be the case given the two points of suggested evidence already present in this thread, which is 1) lots of people complain about it, so there's got to be more good reasons for doing so than there aren't, and 2) devs have been choosing to move AWAY from GFWL because of its relative unpopularity with the users.

How do you explain those? And how can you make such a "matter of fact" statement about GFWL, its problems (or lack thereof), and its users? Where is your source and/or how do you know? Because it sounds like you're simply saying this out of nowhere to support your case.



It depends on your amount of patience. Some, like me, can sit at their PCs for 10 minutes or so waiting for a program just to make sure whether it's suddenly screwed itself over or if it's still working. GFWL can give any one person any number of issues, and for some people the frequency at which these issues occur is just not worth the irritation and aggravation they experience with the system. So, they simply choose not to buy the game. Like you said yourself, it has nothing to do with the game itself.

"It's not personal, it's business."



No, people talk like GFWL = GFWL. If I told you "hey, take this awesome Ferrari and have a blast! But be warned that if you drive this, a spike strip somewhere in the road will engage and blow out your tires," would you buy it? There's nothing wrong with the car itself, it's sleek and shiny and awesome, but there's no point in getting it if your going to have this constant irritation that could pop up at any time and could be anything from just a blown tire to a full-out crash. And no, not a perfect analogy because GFWL isn't guaranteed to fail, but for a lot of people it does it too frequently and so they'd rather purchase the game somehow without it.

Listen, I want people to buy and play the game just as much as you do. S8 had phenomenal potential and yet the userbase was virtually nonexistent. I don't want that to happen again. But if people choose not to purchase the game due to a system required to play it, and a faulty one at that, but not due to anything about the game itself, I won't fault them for that.

Where's my sources? Are you implying that most of the people that complain about GFWL simply cannot access the game if it has GFWL? I'm ruling that out, fair enough you wouldn't buy it if you can't play it but if you can, then what are the other reasons? I'm not counting people that physically can't play as i've said time and time again.

1) It's factual that way more people put in effort to complain about something then to praise it, therefore there always looks like there's more problems with something then there isn't simply because of human nature. (Person A isn't complaining because Person A is happily enjoying himself)

2) A bad reputation is a bad reputation, people like to follow others and this is what happens. I'm sure half of the complainers can play the game but still complain about it.

Yes, it's bad, yes it's unpopular and yes, people complain about it but if you can physically play it, why would a login system stop you from buying it? Impatience or something? Seems strange, I personally do not have many problems with the login system.

Ruebius
05-03-2011, 09:36 PM
Please explain to me fully why a certain account/login system as well as minor interface and friend invitations would stop you from purchasing a full game, while the game has full dedicated server support?

Instead of the "GFWL, will not buy" crap, would some explain some STRONG points that would STOP them from PLAYING the game because of a smaller service? I can agree that being from a certain country would stop you from playing, what are the other points?

If not, can you answer this: Would you refuse to eat a chocolate bar you really liked the taste of just because a certain company made them that had a bad reputation?

I used to advocate GFWL, saying, "hey, it's just like Steam, no big deal". That was until I used it.

Forget the terrible DRM implementation. I couldn't even play the damn game I paid for (Red Faction Guerrilla) because it wouldn't sign in to my Live account. It would keep telling me I have to update the account, which I would. Then it would restart the game for me, and when I get back to the login, it's rinse and repeat.

Screw GFWL.

I already pre-ordered. If I knew it was GFWL, I wouldn't have.

NanoImp
05-03-2011, 09:42 PM
I used to advocate GFWL, saying, "hey, it's just like Steam, no big deal". That was until I used it.

Forget the terrible DRM implementation. I couldn't even play the damn game I paid for (Red Faction Guerrilla) because it wouldn't sign in to my Live account. It would keep telling me I have to update the account, which I would. Then it would restart the game for me, and when I get back to the login, it's rinse and repeat.

Screw GFWL.

I already pre-ordered. If I knew it was GFWL, I wouldn't have.

If you read "3rd-party DRM" in the right hand bar, Games for Windows Live is right there.

The online disclaimer at the bottom also lists it.

But if you can't cancel your preorder due to your past issues with GFWL, that would stink. Assuming you want to cancel it now.

Ruebius
05-03-2011, 09:48 PM
If you read "3rd-party DRM" in the right hand bar, Games for Windows Live is right there.

The online disclaimer at the bottom also lists it.

But if you can't cancel your preorder due to your past issues with GFWL, that would stink. Assuming you want to cancel it now.

I see it now, thanks.

Well, I've already gotten 20 of my clan mates to buy the game, because I didn't know it was GFWL. Too late to go back at this point, even if I could.

ColdCoffee
05-03-2011, 10:18 PM
UPnP is security issues I will never give anything permission to just open ports whenever it wants.

Tufelhunden
05-03-2011, 10:25 PM
I see it now, thanks.

Well, I've already gotten 20 of my clan mates to buy the game, because I didn't know it was GFWL. Too late to go back at this point, even if I could.


It's a fun game, don't let the GFWL get you down. See you burning in. :)

shrinkshooter
05-04-2011, 12:54 AM
Yes, it's bad, yes it's unpopular and yes, people complain about it but if you can physically play it, why would a login system stop you from buying it?

Sigh. Broken records here...

Because it can be a huge irritation. Just because you can physically play it NOW doesn't mean it won't give you issues in the future. I, and others, needed to patch Section 8. When we did, and the patch downloaded and installed through GFWL, it would quit out and restart the game. Then, when it did, it would bring up the same overlay asking if we wanted to update and if not, it wouldn't allow us to play online. That kept a good number of people who had Section 8 from playing the game for a small number of days before they released the next patch that fixed it for us. I doubt anyone remembers this, and of course this did not occur for every user. But this is only ONE EXAMPLE of the many, many issues out there that people have had with GFWL over several years and many games.

I know what you're saying. Believe me, I understand what your point is. But you seem to be entirely missing ours. GFWL CAN be game breaking. That is reason enough not to purchase a game that uses it. And you say "well of course not being able to play the game is a good reason, but what about everyone else?" Did you stop to think about this question? If the people knew beforehand that GFWL wouldn't physically let them play, they wouldn't have gotten the game! If there is even a 10% chance that I cannot physically play a game due to GFWL, I'm not paying 50 bucks for it! And people can't know whether GFWL is game breaking for them until they PLAY THE GAME. Even then, if it starts out fine, GFWL can screw up later on, as plenty of people can attest. The patch system, networking, connectivity, and GUI is all obfuscated and terribly implemented.

The above paragraph clearly answers your question. There seriously is no more to say. A lot of people who would outright blacklist this game due to GFWL are going to put up with it because they figure if it does break the game, it's only 15 bucks lost.

werticus
05-04-2011, 02:01 AM
Would you refuse to eat a chocolate bar you really liked the taste of just because a certain company made them that had a bad reputation?

The analogy would be: refusing to eat a nice chocolate bar because the company wrapped it in EXCREMENT

Kyorisu
05-04-2011, 02:30 AM
The analogy would be: refusing to eat a nice chocolate bar because the company wrapped it in EXCREMENT

No car analogies are more fun.

It's like not buying a really nice car because the on-board computers have a habit of freezing and removing all your control from the vehicle so you end up driving into a pole. Sometimes the car doesn't start for an unknown reason and you can't fix it yourself. To use the GPS you have to scroll through each letter with left and right buttons. The boot doesn't open unless you perform a ritual of button presses.

zerrok
05-04-2011, 05:18 AM
Haha, interesting analogies, fair points I must say.

Still, I look at the quality of the raw game itself instead of GFWL, fair enough if you think there could be future conflicts but some of us never get them, ah well.

Kyorisu
05-04-2011, 05:48 AM
Haha, interesting analogies, fair points I must say.

Still, I look at the quality of the raw game itself instead of GFWL, fair enough if you think there could be future conflicts but some of us never get them, ah well.

One day it'll happen to you and we'll all laugh. It's like some sick form of initiation ceremony. You don't know when it'll happen but when it does :D

Someone get the wooden paddles.

zerrok
05-04-2011, 06:22 AM
One day it'll happen to you and we'll all laugh. It's like some sick form of initiation ceremony. You don't know when it'll happen but when it does :D

Someone get the wooden paddles.

Already did happen on a older laptop but I manually fixed any problems instead of waiting for patches or what ever. My current computer is one of those types that kinda works with everything, rarely get problems with it.

Elite110
05-04-2011, 06:27 AM
Had Fallout 3 running with it for awhile, then I got a new computer. Went from running perfect on a ♥♥♥♥ computer to cant even download updates on a good computer

Kyorisu
05-04-2011, 06:59 AM
Already did happen on a older laptop but I manually fixed any problems instead of waiting for patches or what ever. My current computer is one of those types that kinda works with everything, rarely get problems with it.

If you could fix the problem yourself it doesn't count. I'm talking issues that cannot be resolved on the clients end.

zerrok
05-04-2011, 08:30 AM
If you could fix the problem yourself it doesn't count. I'm talking issues that cannot be resolved on the clients end.

Oh but they can?

What "features" of GFWL are completely and utterly unfixable? By this logic they're just broke for anyone and everyone because it is never fixable, if the client can't fix it who can? If it's a global error then obviously it gets patched but I haven't received any global problems yet.

There's a way to fix a issue if it's working for other people.