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View Full Version : Combat Would be Perfect if Block did not use Stamina


mR.Waffles
05-23-2011, 01:07 PM
I am of the firm belief that the Witcher 2 is a fantastic game. Now that is out of the way: The game would benefit from 2 things:

1) If block was timing based instead of stamina based

Rationale: Blocking is now a resource that one must deplete at the expensive of the superior magic skills. Blocking uses a whole stamina but only blocks one opponent at a time, so it is far more cost effective to use the defense shield spell. This is the best way to meta-game, but it takes away from the sword play so I just don't do it. Also, the current block implementation does not need to be timed. The player can just hold the button, wait for an attack, successfully push the enemy back and then start wailing down blows on his staggered face.

I understand this is meant to be an RPG, so there may be some resistance to forcing a greater timing aspect borrowed from more action heavy titles (if you want to experience the greatest timing based combat system ever developed play Batman Arkham Asylum and you will see what I am shooting for), but I am of the firm belief that the fun factor should always trump genre conventions. Besides, it is not like Witcher 2 is afraid to be different.

<EDIT> I wanted to add this important point people seem to be missing, a timing mechanic does not necessarily mean infinite block because of its active component.

2) Speed up Geralt's combat response time and refine the input. I feel like the controls are sluggish and just not as honed as they could be.

Perhaps one of you wonderfully gifted Gents could program a mod to fix some of the combat woes. I feel like it's almost there but not quite as perfect as it could be.


Discussions of realism are completely irrelevant. We are playing a game in which you are a magical mutant monster slayer. All discussions should focus on game-play, fun factor, and style.

Soggy
05-23-2011, 01:12 PM
1) Increase vigor
2) Decrease vigor use for blocking
3) ?????
4) PROFIT

mR.Waffles
05-23-2011, 01:14 PM
I agree this fixes some of the problems but does not completely address the issue. Why have block use vigor at all? It doesn't offer any benefits to game play.

neuralclone
05-23-2011, 01:16 PM
I'm in agreement for the most part. For me, I love the combat but there are a few things holding it back from being truly great.

1) The inability to step backward when facing an opponent. That's a basic thing in sword fighting. In fact, it's pretty much essential. You need to be able to give up ground when you're being pressed too hard.

In The Witcher 2, you can only move deeper into a group of enemies, which causes them to come around behind you and hit you in the back. If you try to move away from them, Geralt turns his back to the enemies and gets hit in the back. Not only is this downright stupid from a tactical point of view, it's a MAJOR no-no in sword fighting. That's a good way to get yourself killed. For a master swordsman, this just seems incredibly contrived.

2) The controls are sluggish. Sometimes frustratingly sluggish. I really feel like my controller is covered in mud and Geralt's feet are in tar. I get that you need to time your attacks to be effective but that's completely different than experiencing severe input lag. If I'm standing still and try to block, there's a very noticeable delay before Geralt lifts his sword to block. This pretty much guarantees that he will be hit. I have the same problem when trying to dodge. Sometimes he just refuses to move and I end up getting hit (e.g., fighting the Kayran was a nightmare because I couldn't get Geralt to dodge fast enough to avoid the tentacles).

Geralt moves like a master swordsman but often has the response time of a 95 year old. Somehow I don't think that's the intent...

3) Blocking. I don't have a problem with blocking using vigor. My problem is that it takes Geralt way too long to lift his sword to block. Blocking shouldn't be a slow action. It should be something he does immediately to block an incoming attack. If it takes vigor, so be it. But there shouldn't be a 1-2 second delay for him to lift his sword to block. That's just ridiculous. In an actual sword fight, sometimes you need to stop an attack to block an incoming attack. It seems rather silly that a supposed sword master would have to finish his entire attack sequence, get hit, and then block.

Soggy
05-23-2011, 01:18 PM
I agree this fixes some of the problems but does not completely address the issue. Why have block use vigor at all? It doesn't offer any benefits to game play.


As you said, block can be held and when hit, it staggers the enemy. It uses vigor so it's not overused, and used only when appropriate. Otherwise, the complaint would be reversed - GAME IS TOO EASY, I CAN JUST BLOCK-ATTACK MY WAY THROUGH ANYTHING.

Just be thankful dodging doesn't use vigor.

soundcreepy
05-23-2011, 01:20 PM
i like block using vigor, if it didn't, and you had the upgrades for riposte, parry from all directions, and reduce damage by 100%, you could just block and counter all day

mR.Waffles
05-23-2011, 01:20 PM
As you said, block can be held and when hit, it staggers the enemy. It uses vigor so it's not overused, and used only when appropriate. Otherwise, the complaint would be reversed - GAME IS TOO EASY, I CAN JUST BLOCK-ATTACK MY WAY THROUGH ANYTHING.

Just be thankful dodging doesn't use vigor.

This would not be the case if it was a completely timing based mechanic, not a hold ability. If you've ever played Arkham Asylum you don't hold the counter button waiting for an enemy to throw a punch, there is a window of opportunity to throw up a counter as a hit is incoming. This is a basic action game mechanic. The game would not be too easy because you'd have to respond with timing.

This_Guy
05-23-2011, 01:23 PM
i like block using vigor, if it didn't, and you had the upgrades for riposte, parry from all directions, and reduce damage by 100%, you could just block and counter all day

That's all Assassin's Creed is. 8 guys waiting to fight you one at a time while you instant counter-kill them all.

The combat in this game REALLY opened up for me once I got Whirl and could hit multiple enemies. They should have just allowed you to get that skill much, much earlier.

soundcreepy
05-23-2011, 01:24 PM
That's all Assassin's Creed is. 8 guys waiting to fight you one at a time while you instant counter-kill them all.

The combat in this game REALLY opened up for me once I got Whirl and could hit multiple enemies. They should have just allowed you to get that skill much, much earlier.

exactly.... +rep for you sir :D

This would not be the case if it was a completely timing based mechanic, not a hold ability. If you've ever played Arkham Asylum you don't hold the counter button waiting for an enemy to throw a punch, there is a window of opportunity to throw up a counter as a hit is incoming. This is a basic action game mechanic. The game would not be too easy because you'd have to respond with timing.

you know, i never thought of that, but that, would be really cool. there were many combat elements of batman aa that i loved.

Soggy
05-23-2011, 01:28 PM
Batman's countering was incredibly easy. The whole combat, although fun and amazing to watch, was a breeze.

There is a countering mechanic that you have to unlock, and it is based on timing. Blocking exists solely to avoid damage if you're unable to move, and to stagger opponents, with vigor tacked on so it doesn't get abused.

I doubt a modder will be able to do anything to actually change the combat... the vigor/blocking adjustments are already there for you to acquire. Perhaps someone can make it so it's unlocked automatically, though I personally think it would remove the whole tactical and advancement aspect.

mR.Waffles
05-23-2011, 01:28 PM
i like block using vigor, if it didn't, and you had the upgrades for riposte, parry from all directions, and reduce damage by 100%, you could just block and counter all day

This is a valid argument, which is why I am arguing for a timing based mechanic.

Instead of blocking and sword fighting all day what tactic does the game currently force the player to use "all day"? The dodge roll.

Instead of sword fighting the best strategy is to dodge roll all around the place coming up for hits when an enemy is isolated. This is fun and all, but I would hardly count it as appropriate as having to block incoming attacks one after the other with a timing mechanic.

From a game play standpoint this opens up more options, and from a lore perspective... well I just don't like the fact that my Witcher is constantly rolling around on the floor.

Yvese
05-23-2011, 01:36 PM
Best bet is to wait for a mod.

neuralclone
05-23-2011, 01:40 PM
This is a valid argument, which is why
From a game play standpoint this opens up more options, and from a lore perspective... well I just don't like the fact that my Witcher is constantly rolling around on the floor.
From a lore perspective it doesn't make a bit of sense. As I said above, in actual sword fighting you'd be blocking and moving backward when being pressed really hard. You wouldn't be rolling around like a tumbleweed. Some rolling might make sense but I don't like how rolling has replaced a reliable way to block and backward movement.

soundcreepy
05-23-2011, 01:40 PM
This is a valid argument, which is why I am arguing for a timing based mechanic.

Instead of blocking and sword fighting all day what tactic does the game currently force the player to use "all day"? The dodge roll.

Instead of sword fighting the best strategy is to dodge roll all around the place coming up for hits when an enemy is isolated. This is fun and all, but I would hardly count it as appropriate as having to block incoming attacks one after the other with a timing mechanic.

From a game play standpoint this opens up more options, and from a lore perspective... well I just don't like the fact that my Witcher is constantly rolling around on the floor.

point taken, perhaps they should have made dodge also use a little vigor?

course the beginning of the game is hard enough :eek:

all in all no combat is ever perfect, using vigor for blocking just makes for rollie pollie ollie....not using vigor for blocking turns into Assassins Creed....and the timing (while im starting to like this idea the best) was a breeze to catch on to, and i don't like my witcher playing to be easy. (just not insane just yet, going to see what 1.1 brings) The rollie pollie ollie while looking dumb brings me the most challenge, because for some reason i get myself jammed in an area i can't roll out of, or roll into another creeper.......

mR.Waffles
05-23-2011, 02:23 PM
The problem with Assassin's Creed was the enemy AI waiting one guy a time like a bad kung fu film, not the fact you could block and counter. If the combat speed increased in AC then that complaint would have been mitigated.

analyst88
05-23-2011, 03:17 PM
I'm in agreement for the most part. For me, I love the combat but there are a few things holding it back from being truly great.

1) The inability to step backward when facing an opponent. That's a basic thing in sword fighting. In fact, it's pretty much essential. You need to be able to give up ground when you're being pressed too hard.

In The Witcher 2, you can only move deeper into a group of enemies, which causes them to come around behind you and hit you in the back. If you try to move away from them, Geralt turns his back to the enemies and gets hit in the back. Not only is this downright stupid from a tactical point of view, it's a MAJOR no-no in sword fighting. That's a good way to get yourself killed. For a master swordsman, this just seems incredibly contrived.

2) The controls are sluggish. Sometimes frustratingly sluggish. I really feel like my controller is covered in mud and Geralt's feet are in tar. I get that you need to time your attacks to be effective but that's completely different than experiencing severe input lag. If I'm standing still and try to block, there's a very noticeable delay before Geralt lifts his sword to block. This pretty much guarantees that he will be hit. I have the same problem when trying to dodge. Sometimes he just refuses to move and I end up getting hit (e.g., fighting the Kayran was a nightmare because I couldn't get Geralt to dodge fast enough to avoid the tentacles).

Geralt moves like a master swordsman but often has the response time of a 95 year old. Somehow I don't think that's the intent...

3) Blocking. I don't have a problem with blocking using vigor. My problem is that it takes Geralt way too long to lift his sword to block. Blocking shouldn't be a slow action. It should be something he does immediately to block an incoming attack. If it takes vigor, so be it. But there shouldn't be a 1-2 second delay for him to lift his sword to block. That's just ridiculous. In an actual sword fight, sometimes you need to stop an attack to block an incoming attack. It seems rather silly that a supposed sword master would have to finish his entire attack sequence, get hit, and then block.
1) Just, you know, roll away?

mR.Waffles
05-23-2011, 03:22 PM
You are missing the point and probably didn't read the thread. Rolling works fine but it shouldn't be the primary form of defense if we are role-playing a bad ♥♥♥ sword fighting witcher. I'd prefer the best tactic not be rolling around like a fish out of water.

Don't hear me wrong. I like the dodge roll. It's just the overemphasis I find unappealing.

analyst88
05-23-2011, 03:25 PM
From a lore perspective it doesn't make a bit of sense. As I said above, in actual sword fighting you'd be blocking and moving backward when being pressed really hard. You wouldn't be rolling around like a tumbleweed. Some rolling might make sense but I don't like how rolling has replaced a reliable way to block and backward movement.

In a real sword fight you don't block overhead strikes by holding your sword in front of your head, unless you want your sword heavily damaged. You step aside, or quickly close the distance and kill him with a dagger. In a real sword fight, someone would never hold his sword as stupidly as Geralt does when he's in blocking stance; he's basically completely open, especially to stabs.

http://www.kendogroningen.nl/wordpress/wp-content/upload/kamae1.jpg

That is probably the safest stance with a two-handed swords. It's as closed as can be (you can block, counter and/or evade every single incoming attack pretty easily) while still giving you a lot of offensive possibilities. It does not, however, look that badass or cool. This stance is called Chudan-no-kamae.

Mogan
05-23-2011, 03:39 PM
My biggest beef with the combat is that you can't quickly attack targets around you. Once you get the right skill you can, but that's all targets at once. I'd like to be able to fight groups like you do in Arkham Asylum, where you can quickly hit any target around you to keep groups at bay. I'd like it if the basic block worked the same way, just press block and a direction when you see an enemy start to attack, and Geralt will quickly turn and block that attack.

noxchaos
05-23-2011, 03:42 PM
While Geralt's parrying stance is just a catch-all stance, it's not as bad as you describe. Clearly, you are unfamiliar with either European sword combat or European swords, which are heavy, solid pieces of steel. They can take overhead blows, though most certainly, they would be taken on the flat of the blade. I'm certain Geralt does this as well, but it's impossible to animate every block properly anyway, so the stance is just filler.

Of course, the normal parrying technique for overhead blows would be to step into it and parry the base of the sword rather than the end, preventing the motion more than absorbing it.

All in all, Geralt's fighting style is certainly solid, fast, and hard while being unique. Also, if you played other characters during cut scenes, you will certainly understand just how much faster and mobile Geralt is than mostly everyone else.

Anoddhermit
05-23-2011, 04:15 PM
IMO -

-increase vigor regen
-make both rolling and parry use vigor, with rolling using more
-reduce quen absorb by ~25-50%
-make quen reduce vigor regen by 50%

I figure that'd make combat more strategic and allow more effective magic offensive builds - which seem weak but I could be wrong? Igni seems to've lost it's luster - it was OP in first game but now seems underpowered relative to swords and bombs/daggers.
Anyway currently roll spam keeps you out of harm's way too easily, and is 100% superior to parrying in my experience. They also just need make parrying respond reliably when you press the key/button.

Cloud8521
05-23-2011, 04:25 PM
This is a valid argument, which is why I am arguing for a timing based mechanic.

Instead of blocking and sword fighting all day what tactic does the game currently force the player to use "all day"? The dodge roll.

Instead of sword fighting the best strategy is to dodge roll all around the place coming up for hits when an enemy is isolated. This is fun and all, but I would hardly count it as appropriate as having to block incoming attacks one after the other with a timing mechanic.

From a game play standpoint this opens up more options, and from a lore perspective... well I just don't like the fact that my Witcher is constantly rolling around on the floor.
funny.. i acually made the exact same argument.. you sure you did not see that from my thread lol. i love this solution the most, but at this moment it may not be best due to input lag.


i have also given alternates to the idea also, such as a separate bar that acts more like health then a per block.

this way a stronger enemy attacking will make the block less useful but against weaker ones you can use it longer, giving more strategy to fights. you would have to learn each enemy better to know how to block best.

once the block bar drains maybe he gets stunned.

but maybe they could put the two idea together :P

mR.Waffles
05-23-2011, 04:25 PM
IMO -

-increase vigor regen
-make both rolling and parry use vigor, with rolling using more
-reduce quen absorb by ~25-50%
-make quen reduce vigor regen by 50%

I figure that'd make combat more strategic and allow more effective magic offensive builds - which seem weak but I could be wrong? Igni seems to've lost it's luster - it was OP in first game but now seems underpowered relative to swords and bombs/daggers.
Anyway currently roll spam keeps you out of harm's way too easily, and is 100% superior to parrying in my experience. They also just need make parrying respond reliably when you press the key/button.

I think that's a fairly good answer. I'd still rather see the more dramatic changes previously discussed, but this essentially accomplishes the same goals within the current frame work.

And before we get off topic can everyone please cease and desist the conversation about "real" sword fighting. This is a video game. All conversations should be based upon what is fun and fits in the world. No one dodge rolls in real life. It's a cool game play mechanic and looks awesome in movies.

Sifer2
05-23-2011, 04:38 PM
Well what they could have done is not have Block use Vigor. But allow enemies to grab you if you tried to hold it. That would also create a new tactic of baiting an enemy into trying to grab an then you attack instead. So long as it was fast enough it would overall improve things.

The problem is this combat system is kind of a mess an doesn't know what it wants to be. An action game or a real RPG. An then there are basic problems like the delay from the time you hit something to when Geralt will do it. An not being able to step backwards.

lyravega
05-23-2011, 05:02 PM
-Block/Parry can negate all damage via some skills, aswell as granting the ability to parry from all sides

-Some skills/talents also reduce usage of vigor while parrying/blocking

-Some potions completely remove block/parry vigor usage at the cost of negative effects ALREADY

In short; it is fine, balanced already. Complete damage negation with no negative effects is OP. That potion in question gives negative effects so balances that OP issue.

Sifer2
05-23-2011, 05:05 PM
-Block/Parry can negate all damage via some skills, aswell as granting the ability to parry from all sides

-Some skills/talents also reduce usage of vigor while parrying/blocking

-Some potions completely remove block/parry vigor usage at the cost of negative effects ALREADY

In short; it is fine, balanced already. Complete damage negation with no negative effects is OP. That potion in question gives negative effects so balances that OP issue.


Problem is you don't have hardly any of the stuff you mention at the start of the game. But are still expected to handle 10 dudes at a time anyway. That's the major source of complaints. From what I hear the game actually gets quite easy later on once you actually acquire all those abilities. Which is poor game balance all around.

Cloud8521
05-23-2011, 05:06 PM
-Block/Parry can negate all damage via some skills, aswell as granting the ability to parry from all sides

-Some skills/talents also reduce usage of vigor while parrying/blocking

-Some potions completely remove block/parry vigor usage at the cost of negative effects ALREADY

In short; it is fine, balanced already. Complete damage negation with no negative effects is OP. That potion in question gives negative effects so balances that OP issue.

no one si asking that, but making it active makes it harder then it is now. which is what balances it out

mR.Waffles
05-24-2011, 06:54 AM
no one si asking that, but making it active makes it harder then it is now. which is what balances it out

Exactly, an active block will help the curve everyone has been fussing about. I don't claim it will fix the curve entirely, but it would make the game harder later on.

hireath
05-24-2011, 08:13 AM
i think the combat system is great... being able to parry forever like assassins creed would suck. if you want to parry forever then use quen sign.

losing stamina and then getting hit/recoiling/stunned/knocked down really breaks the typical RPG-combat formula where you stand still for 20 minutes spamming left mouse button.

that said, i don't think the game is so focused on combat - which is great. it's a simple yet rewarding combat system and the roleplaying side is better because of that.

Drowsy
05-24-2011, 08:29 AM
I am of the firm belief that the Witcher 2 is a fantastic game. Now that is out of the way: The game would benefit from 2 things:

1) If block was timing based instead of stamina based

Rationale: Blocking is now a resource that one must deplete at the expensive of the superior magic skills. Blocking uses a whole stamina but only blocks one opponent at a time, so it is far more cost effective to use the defense shield spell. This is the best way to meta-game, but it takes away from the sword play so I just don't do it. Also, the current block implementation does not need to be timed. The player can just hold the button, wait for an attack, successfully push the enemy back and then start wailing down blows on his staggered face.

I understand this is meant to be an RPG, so there may be some resistance to forcing a greater timing aspect borrowed from more action heavy titles (if you want to experience the greatest timing based combat system ever developed play Batman Arkham Asylum and you will see what I am shooting for), but I am of the firm belief that the fun factor should always trump genre conventions. Besides, it is not like Witcher 2 is afraid to be different.

2) Speed up Geralt's combat response time and refine the input. I feel like the controls are sluggish and just not as honed as they could be.

Perhaps one of you wonderfully gifted Gents could program a mod to fix some of the combat woes. I feel like it's almost there but not quite as perfect as it could be.

Indeed, because blocking or parrying a strike takes no strength at all and nor does it make u tired.

mR.Waffles
05-24-2011, 10:34 AM
Drowsy, maybe I need to put this statement in the original post:

Discussions of realism are completely irrelevant. We are playing a game in which you are a magical mutant monster slayer. All discussions should focus on game-play, fun factor, and style.

Nighthorns
05-24-2011, 06:08 PM
Here ya go! http://www.witchernexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=11

psychocandy
05-24-2011, 06:14 PM
IMO -

-increase vigor regen
-make both rolling and parry use vigor, with rolling using more
-reduce quen absorb by ~25-50%
-make quen reduce vigor regen by 50%

I figure that'd make combat more strategic and allow more effective magic offensive builds - which seem weak but I could be wrong? Igni seems to've lost it's luster - it was OP in first game but now seems underpowered relative to swords and bombs/daggers.
Anyway currently roll spam keeps you out of harm's way too easily, and is 100% superior to parrying in my experience. They also just need make parrying respond reliably when you press the key/button.

Quen reduces vigour re-gen by 100% already

Sifer2
05-24-2011, 07:24 PM
Indeed, because blocking or parrying a strike takes no strength at all and nor does it make u tired.


In that case then I guess we better make attacking an rolling cost Stamina too. Then Geralt can just be a helpless baby after a couple swings lol.

I understand why some want to defend it since they don't want the game to be too simple. But your not helping things by defending mechanics that really could use improvement. There is no real depth to blocking costing stamina. As it just means you have to roll around when you run out which adds nothing worthwhile or fun to the combat.

Cloud8521
05-24-2011, 07:34 PM
theres 2 options that i have seen that may or may not work everyone.

OPTION 1: Active blocking. this meant holding but button does you 0 good. when a attack come sin you must press the block button at that time to activate a block. this is still difficult but gives you more control. this also makes countering a much harder aspect. but it may be a little much for some players but once you get the timing down you will feel more powerful with it. the drawback is that it may be hard to make upgrade for. laxing the ammount of time you have to press the button may be an option. but ultimatly it may need some thinking into

OPTION 2: give it a new Defence bar. an analog bar that drains, not by hit but rather by amount of damage coming in. when the bar drains fully you become stunned and defenceless. upgrades can remain the same, and the one that makes it more efficient can make it instead take less from each attack.

Cloud8521
05-24-2011, 07:35 PM
In that case then I guess we better make attacking an rolling cost Stamina too. Then Geralt can just be a helpless baby after a couple swings lol.

i would ROFL but im out of vigour

mR.Waffles
05-25-2011, 07:40 AM
Here ya go! http://www.witchernexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=11

This is a great mod, but to balance it someone needs to program a timing mechanic. Example, if you hold block and get hit then you take damage, but if you tap block right as the swing is coming in at you then you defend.

I hear there is a counter attack later in the game. I assume this is timing based? Maybe someone could use that code and apply it to the block thus giving the timing element we have been discussing?

illianquinn
05-25-2011, 07:49 AM
In a real sword fight you don't block overhead strikes by holding your sword in front of your head, unless you want your sword heavily damaged. You step aside, or quickly close the distance and kill him with a dagger. In a real sword fight, someone would never hold his sword as stupidly as Geralt does when he's in blocking stance; he's basically completely open, especially to stabs.

http://www.kendogroningen.nl/wordpress/wp-content/upload/kamae1.jpg

That is probably the safest stance with a two-handed swords. It's as closed as can be (you can block, counter and/or evade every single incoming attack pretty easily) while still giving you a lot of offensive possibilities. It does not, however, look that badass or cool. This stance is called Chudan-no-kamae.

This is not Japanese sword fighting.

It depends on the stance and style...I'll tell you right now that an overhead block does work if you angle the blade in such a way that it'll glide an incoming over-head attack off to the side allowing for you to rubber-band a counter-attack at the throat or arm.


Indeed, because blocking or parrying a strike takes no strength at all and nor does it make u tired.

You've obviously never trained with swords before....after your first week of training, your arm(s) will feel like they're going to break off at the shoulders. And I'm not even going to dig into one-on-one training and matches...

All in all, the game makes sense...to a degree.

mR.Waffles
05-25-2011, 08:31 AM
You've obviously never trained with swords before....after your first week of training, your arm(s) will feel like they're going to break off at the shoulders. And I'm not even going to dig into one-on-one training and matches...

All in all, the game makes sense...to a degree.

Obviously your point is irrelevant get outta here!

Discussions of realism are completely irrelevant. We are playing a game in which you are a magical mutant monster slayer. All discussions should focus on game-play, fun factor, and style.

Bf
05-25-2011, 09:15 AM
I like that blocking drains vigor aswell, it prevents you from being overpowered in swordfights.

Cloud8521
05-25-2011, 09:19 AM
I like that blocking drains vigor aswell, it prevents you from being overpowered in swordfights.

that's why we are suggesting an alternative that does not make you overpowered in fights. it will be less clunky and you could use signs. allows block to be balanced by itself and the same will be true with signs. block as it is is treated like its a sign.

Soggy
05-25-2011, 09:28 AM
Sigh... we already went over this. Block is "treated like it's a sign" because there is no difference between the two - they're both considered 'exhausting'. Witchers don't have "mana", they only have endurance.

Inb4 rolling, heavy inventory, carrying 100 pieces of iron, 4 suits of armor, etc. It's a game, they balanced it.

Cloud8521
05-25-2011, 09:32 AM
Sigh... we already went over this. Block is "treated like it's a sign" because there is no difference between the two - they're both considered 'exhausting'. Witchers don't have "mana", they only have endurance.

Inb4 rolling, heavy inventory, carrying 100 pieces of iron, 4 suits of armor, etc. It's a game, they balanced it.

you went off on a tangent and i dont care about what you said because it simply was not true or pertain to the fact that you cast block.

MrMadMadMan
05-25-2011, 09:34 AM
The way i see it the developers wanted TW2 to be a really difficult game and making block use stamina would only make it more difficult which im sure was the aim they were going for.
I wouldnt mind having the option to toggle block stamina, but then again that would ruin the purpose of making the game difficult which would go againts CDP belief.

Soggy
05-25-2011, 09:35 AM
It wasn't a tangent, it was true, and you don't "cast" block. You don't make any sense.

I don't have any problem with you wanting to separate blocking from signs... my problem is with your misconception that you're "casting" block.

Cloud8521
05-25-2011, 09:47 AM
It wasn't a tangent, it was true, and you don't "cast" block. You don't make any sense.

I don't have any problem with you wanting to separate blocking from signs... my problem is with your misconception that you're "casting" block.

the game itself acts as if its casting. you may not notice it but its very apparent.

Soggy
05-25-2011, 09:52 AM
How does it act like it? You don't lose vigor each time you put up your guard, and there is no timer associated with it.

Cloud8521
05-25-2011, 09:55 AM
How does it act like it? You don't lose vigor each time you put up your guard, and there is no timer associated with it.
the way it ques it really. it acts alot like AXII to be honest, in terms of control. it has the same checking method. those are what makes it like casting. the only thing really changed too much is it only takes it away when hit.

Soggy
05-25-2011, 10:00 AM
Can you be more specific? I don't understand how it acts like Axii, and has the same checking method.

Axii only works if you have someone targeted, and it needs to be charged. Block works without targeting, and can be done instantly.

Cloud8521
05-25-2011, 10:08 AM
Can you be more specific? I don't understand how it acts like Axii, and has the same checking method.

Axii only works if you have someone targeted, and it needs to be charged. Block works without targeting, and can be done instantly.

its just the little things that you wont notice that makes it casted. and it just does not feel right to me, but like i said it may be hard to notice. what i am saying is it takes a little bit from different signs for how its initiated. the Vigour check is not because its a sign but because it needs to know if there is vigour left to "cast it" which slows down the process resulting in you pressing it sometimes and it not coming up for a little while, time is not too l9ong but enough to cause problems in a fight.

Soggy
05-25-2011, 10:16 AM
I think the delay in anything happening is just a controls issue. I've had EVERYTHING be delayed, and then EVERYTHING be instantaneous. Blocking, signs, attacking, rolling, etc.

The only connection I see it having with signs, is the little fart noise it makes when you have no vigor left.

Countering acts more like a "cast" ability more than blocking. It's so random - sometimes you can counter without it telling you to, sometimes you can't, sometimes you can counter AND still get hit by the same enemy, and it even has some sort of invisible recharge. I've tried quite a few times to get the '3 counters in a row' achievement, and I just can't get it to work properly.

adrianke77
05-25-2011, 10:21 AM
I don't see the point of going into so much detail when the majority of combat lack-of-fun is the laggy controls. Witcher 1 didn't have this problem at all from what I remember. You pressed switch blade, he switches blade. You click, he swings. You press dodge, he dodges. I remember spells and stuff coming out immediately instead of lagging first too. Apparently they decided to go Demon Souls style with Witcher 2 but Demon Souls was much more responsive as well, if you died it was always your fault.

neuralclone
05-25-2011, 12:00 PM
1) Just, you know, roll away?
You're completely missing my points.

In a real sword fight you don't block overhead strikes by holding your sword in front of your head, unless you want your sword heavily damaged. You step aside, or quickly close the distance and kill him with a dagger. In a real sword fight, someone would never hold his sword as stupidly as Geralt does when he's in blocking stance; he's basically completely open, especially to stabs.

http://www.kendogroningen.nl/wordpress/wp-content/upload/kamae1.jpg

That is probably the safest stance with a two-handed swords. It's as closed as can be (you can block, counter and/or evade every single incoming attack pretty easily) while still giving you a lot of offensive possibilities. It does not, however, look that badass or cool. This stance is called Chudan-no-kamae.
Um, yes. Thanks for the lecture. I'm arguing that we should be given more movement options that resemble real sword fighting rather than the current options to roll out of the way or get stabbed in the back when trying to back off.

mR.Waffles
05-25-2011, 03:41 PM
Since when was there any argument to cast block? We've been arguing for a timing mechanic.

Cloud8521
05-25-2011, 03:43 PM
Since when was there any argument to cast block? We've been arguing for a timing mechanic.

yes i know, i brought it up and he sort of... latched onto it >.>

ZDProletariat
05-25-2011, 03:49 PM
Obviously your point is irrelevant get outta here!

Discussions of realism are completely irrelevant. We are playing a game in which you are a magical mutant monster slayer. All discussions should focus on game-play, fun factor, and style.

To be fair, if you followed the production of this game at all you'd realize that they put A LOT of work into making the combat as realistic as possible, to the point of bringing in swordmasters to record with software to give Geralt the most realistic movements they could.
It's an odd argument to try to ignore that by appealing to the genre of the game. Yes there are monsters and magic, but there is also melee combat. Specifically, melee combat that they worked to make as realistic as possible.

Neverpleased
05-25-2011, 04:19 PM
I bet you 50$ that if Blocking had no negative effects at all and you could just keep holding that button there would be someone else (or even the OP) on this forum complaining that Geralt can infinitely block incoming enemy attacks.

How it's so unrealistic that you pretty much have infinite stamina.

I agree that the fact it consumes vigor is slightly annoying at the start but that is what makes the gameplay fun for me. I can't just spam signs and blocks. I have 2 shots, 1 block and 1 sign, if I cast to many signs I can't block, if I block to often I can't stun the second guy.

I got over the little hindrance pretty quick after I got access to traps.

Cloud8521
05-25-2011, 04:25 PM
I bet you 50$ that if Blocking had no negative effects at all and you could just keep holding that button there would be someone else (or even the OP) on this forum complaining that Geralt can infinitely block incoming enemy attacks.

How it's so unrealistic that you pretty much have infinite stamina.

I agree that the fact it consumes vigor is slightly annoying at the start but that is what makes the gameplay fun for me. I can't just spam signs and blocks. I have 2 shots, 1 block and 1 sign, if I cast to many signs I can't block, if I block to often I can't stun the second guy.

I got over the little hindrance pretty quick after I got access to traps.

no ones talking about infinite blocks we are talking about timing based blocks.

neuralclone
05-25-2011, 04:29 PM
To be fair, if you followed the production of this game at all you'd realize that they put A LOT of work into making the combat as realistic as possible, to the point of bringing in swordmasters to record with software to give Geralt the most realistic movements they could.
It's an odd argument to try to ignore that by appealing to the genre of the game. Yes there are monsters and magic, but there is also melee combat. Specifically, melee combat that they worked to make as realistic as possible.

This.

Soggy
05-25-2011, 07:35 PM
yes i know, i brought it up and he sort of... latched onto it >.>

Because it doesn't make any sense. ;)

Quick, cast strong attack before the enemy casts block!

Cloud8521
05-25-2011, 07:37 PM
Because it doesn't make any sense. ;)

Quick, cast strong attack before the enemy casts block!

its not important to this thread.


btw, if a guy comes around calling me leader of the PC whiners. just know its a toll who has ben trying to fallow me though the wither forums just yelling that about me...

illianquinn
05-25-2011, 07:54 PM
Obviously your point is irrelevant get outta here!

Discussions of realism are completely irrelevant. We are playing a game in which you are a magical mutant monster slayer. All discussions should focus on game-play, fun factor, and style.

Your irrelevant posts about irrelevance are irrelevant.

How about you take a trip off a cliff since this game (and the last one) aimed to simulate realistic swordplay?

mR.Waffles
05-25-2011, 08:06 PM
To be fair, if you followed the production of this game at all you'd realize that they put A LOT of work into making the combat as realistic as possible, to the point of bringing in swordmasters to record with software to give Geralt the most realistic movements they could.
It's an odd argument to try to ignore that by appealing to the genre of the game. Yes there are monsters and magic, but there is also melee combat. Specifically, melee combat that they worked to make as realistic as possible.

If the combat was realistic we wouldn't spend 90 percent of the game rolling on the ground. I've been arguing from the beginning that a timing based block makes more sense in the game setting. Geralt is supposed to be a whirling swordsman, so why is his best defensive tactic to roll around running away until an enemy isolates himself then come up for a sneak attack and roll away again.

Our arguments go together.

And whoever keeps bringing up the "infinite block will make you invincible" argument needs to read the thread before commenting. Thanks.

illianquinn
05-25-2011, 08:14 PM
If the combat was realistic we wouldn't spend 90 percent of the game rolling on the ground. I've been arguing from the beginning that a timing based block makes more sense in the game setting. Geralt is supposed to be a whirling swordsman, so why is his best defensive tactic to roll around running away until an enemy isolates himself then come up for a sneak attack and roll away again.

Our arguments go together.

And whoever keeps bringing up the "infinite block will make you invincible" argument needs to read the thread before commenting. Thanks.


Actually, I find it to be very realistic to evade using rolls. I've been training in zen sword at Shim Gum Do (http://shimgumdo.org/) off and on for about 20 years...If you ever train there, you'll find that many of the master forms involve a lot of rolling.

I'm not going to explain to you the reasons as I doubt you'll ever truly understand until you train in sword yourself.

[edit]
Here's our first video btw:

http://styleboston.tv/1184/detour-shim-gum-do/

This is the first time we've ever allowed any of this to be filmed.

Cloud8521
05-26-2011, 09:03 PM
i still say this is needed.

blocking goes from useless to too easy after just 1 upgrade. it needs a balance that can only be achieved by making it separate from Vigour

mR.Waffles
05-27-2011, 07:16 AM
We need to contact the guy who made the no vigor patch and see if he can code us up something timing based.

Bollockoff
05-27-2011, 07:30 AM
If the combat was realistic we wouldn't spend 90 percent of the game rolling on the ground.

The majority of the fights in Witcher 2 involve Geralt being outnumbered 4 to 1 or often more. In those situations, your best defensive tactic is to constantly reposition yourself to prevent being surrounded, which is exactly what he does well. You can't hope to stay alive if you're getting attacked from multiple angles at the same time.

Many of the monsters are simply too strong or large to simply use a sword to block or parry as well. Rolling and evasion makes sense for these encounters.

In the one on one fights in the game, the best tactic is to simply let the enemy collide with your parry and counter. Otherwise it's rolling like you're doing school gymnastics. It's only because you're having to roll most of the time I think you take exception.

Tufelhunden
05-27-2011, 07:40 AM
So . . . combat would be great if I was overpowered. Sure, I guess so.

mR.Waffles
05-27-2011, 08:54 AM
So . . . combat would be great if I was overpowered. Sure, I guess so.

Read the thread before commenting.

Soggy
05-27-2011, 09:07 AM
We need to contact the guy who made the no vigor patch and see if he can code us up something timing based.

Just because he managed to make a mod, doesn't mean he can actually code anything into the game.

The majority of mods that are out right now are nothing more than value edits, which is EXTREMELY easy. Like, the 'everything weighs 0.1'... all you do is change the items weight from 1.0 to 0.1. The same thing with the blocking mod - it's probably something like 'vigor used=1.0' to 'vigor used=0'

If it doesn't have a timer associated with it to begin with, he can't do anything with it.

Tufelhunden
05-27-2011, 09:33 AM
Read the thread before commenting.

I did. You want to not have to decide how and when to block versus dodge and take the consequences off your choice. You want the game to be set to easy, IIRC there is that mode.

LaMontagne
05-27-2011, 09:43 AM
Your irrelevant posts about irrelevance are irrelevant.

How about you take a trip off a cliff since this game (and the last one) aimed to simulate realistic swordplay?

True, I liked the realism of the last one especially.

Which swordsmaster doesn't flip his sword, grasp the blade with both hands, then bring the hilt down onto his opponents head? Classic.

There was absolutely nothing in the last one that simulated realistic swordplay; that's one reason it was awesome.

mR.Waffles
05-27-2011, 10:55 AM
I did. You want to not have to decide how and when to block versus dodge and take the consequences off your choice. You want the game to be set to easy, IIRC there is that mode.

Now you are forcing me to question your reading comprehension.

First of all I don't want the game to be easy. I want it to be harder. As it stands Quen (is that the defense spell) is a win button.

Second, as we previously discussed block provides no benefits over any other option. If you block, well that's one less vigor to use Quen at your disposal. You trade one vigor for one defense, whereas Quen provides numerous defensive bonuses for the exact same cost; therefore there is no reason to use block over Quen. Rolling around constantly costs nothing and provides the best defense. We've been arguing about how much "fun" constant rolling is and how much it fits into the lore. Some people here seem perfectly accepting of having a roley poley ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roley_poley ) for a Witcher, but I'm not.

Third, a timing mechanic would add an extra layer of difficulty (also see primary reason why you are wrong and probably did not read the thread as to have claimed). As it stands now you just hold block until attacked and the enemy is automatically deflected. This current mechanic is "easy" whereas an active timing mechanic would add "difficulty".

Soggy
05-27-2011, 10:58 AM
Quen severely limits you, that's the advantage of blocking.

mR.Waffles
05-27-2011, 11:02 AM
If by severely limits you mean grants the player invulnerability to damage, then yes you are correct.

DarkJeff
05-27-2011, 11:30 AM
I thought Block did have a timing mechanism? Riposte? There's a little thingy that flashes on enemies, and if you attack (while still blocking) you do a flash move that counterattacks them?

Soggy
05-27-2011, 11:39 AM
If by severely limits you mean grants the player invulnerability to damage, then yes you are correct.

You were saying that there's basically no different between block and quen. Do you really have to pretend to be ignorant? Quen stops your health and vigor regeneration, so once it's activated, you have limited signs you can do during that time.

Whereas block not only protects you, but allows everything to regenerate.

mR.Waffles
05-27-2011, 11:44 AM
I thought Block did have a timing mechanism? Riposte? There's a little thingy that flashes on enemies, and if you attack (while still blocking) you do a flash move that counterattacks them?

This is a special talent unlocked later in the game.

Soggy,

I understand that Quen stops regen, but it also deflects like 6 hits. You don't need stamina regeneration when you are immune to damage. Quen is infinitely more efficient than block, and therefore sacrificing the vigor is a no-brainer. A better strategy than blocking is to simply Quen up slap the hell out of the enemy, then roll around whilst you regenerate after Quen fades. Repeat. This just does not make for compelling sword play.

I'm not saying that there is no difference. Go back and re-read what I said. My problem is that the difference is astronomical. Block has no place coming from the vigor pool when Quen is better.

Soggy
05-27-2011, 11:55 AM
You said there's no reason to use block over Quen. Quen is overpowered, sure, but it's not INFINITELY more efficient than block.

You said it's a special talent unlocked later in the game, but that's the same for the full power of Quen.

With the right abilities, block almost doesn't use any vigor at all, and it's more consistent. It doesn't need to be monitored and you don't need to retreat to reapply it.

I'm not saying Quen is useless or ineffective, I'm just making sure that block is viewed upon fairly.

mR.Waffles
05-27-2011, 12:03 PM
Perhaps then the problem lays more in the beginning of the game and less in the later. We've already heard the common refrain "The difficulty curve is terrible" so I don't need to pluck that string. What you are saying is true, though I think we disagree the extent of block's efficiency in its current state.

Your argument furthers the need for a timing mechanic. In the current state the game becomes too easy at later levels because, therefore if you toss in an active element it should smooth out.

ZDProletariat
05-27-2011, 12:04 PM
You said there's no reason to use block over Quen. Quen is overpowered, sure, but it's not INFINITELY more efficient than block.

You said it's a special talent unlocked later in the game, but that's the same for the full power of Quen.

With the right abilities, block almost doesn't use any vigor at all, and it's more consistent. It doesn't need to be monitored and you don't need to retreat to reapply it.

I'm not saying Quen is useless or ineffective, I'm just making sure that block is viewed upon fairly.

1. Quen actually is infinitely more efficient than block since it works on ALL enemy attacks, see bosses, while the block can fail.
2. Quen once upgrades does damage and opens the enemy up to attack merely by standing there, while with block you need to use a timed riposte to do so which WILL cost vigor.
3. I don't see how block is more consistent just because it doesn't need to "be monitored". You do need to hold it down in time while making sure you have the vigor in the first place.

Practically anybody who has played through this game once has seen the power of Quen, and the efficiency of it over blocking. Especially later game.

Backslider.r2
05-27-2011, 12:07 PM
Quen is OP. Playing on hard, I never used it against trash. When I stooped to using it in a few of the boss fights, I felt dirty.

On topic: You shouldn't be able to block forever. It's not realism, its game balance.

Soggy
05-27-2011, 12:10 PM
ZD, I quite clearly said in the first sentence that Quen is overpowered... I didn't think I needed to go into detail by saying 'YOU CAN STAND STILL AND DO NOTHING AND BOSSES DON'T GOT ♥♥♥♥ ON YOU'

Quen can just as easily get you killed if you rely on it too much. Bosses toss you around, and if you get tossed in the wrong area, you're already dead, as they don't give you a chance to reapply Quen, let alone let you stand up. I only used it as a last resort.

Bollockoff
05-27-2011, 12:18 PM
It's not realism, its game balance.

To be fair, parrying does take a good deal of concentration and upper body strength to make sure you deflect the blow and not have the opponent simply force the blade back onto you.

mR.Waffles
05-27-2011, 12:23 PM
To be fair, parrying does take a good deal of concentration and upper body strength to make sure you deflect the blow and not have the opponent simply force the blade back onto you.

I'm about to nip at you for talking about realism. Someone hold me back quick!

ZDProletariat
05-27-2011, 12:38 PM
I'm about to nip at you for talking about realism. Someone hold me back quick!

Why would you?

Cloud8521
05-27-2011, 12:59 PM
To be fair, parrying does take a good deal of concentration and upper body strength to make sure you deflect the blow and not have the opponent simply force the blade back onto you.

also to be fair, hes a mutant, master swordsman, master monster hunter and he has quite a reputation. not human