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Coleman `
06-23-2011, 07:49 PM
One of those rare threads in the VAC forum asking a legitimate question.

Team Fortress 2 is now free to play. What on earth does this mean for TF2 and VAC? There is essentially no penalty now to cheating. Is this going to be rectified in some way?

themires
06-23-2011, 07:52 PM
its just free for the weekend.

Coleman `
06-23-2011, 07:56 PM
its just free for the weekend.

No... it's not. Not paying much attention, are we?

http://www.teamfortress.com/freetoplay/

The FAQ says they have systems in place for people abusing the ban system, still sounds like a terrible idea to me.

Evo Nightmare
06-23-2011, 08:01 PM
Team Fortress 2 is now free to play. What on earth does this mean for TF2 and VAC? There is essentially no penalty now to cheating. Is this going to be rectified in some way?

I always play on servers where the admins are on the ball and ban the cheaters. If it gets too bad I suppose I will just stop playing the game.

Or, I could take up the console versions....on second thought.

__asm
06-23-2011, 08:06 PM
http://www.teamfortress.com/freetoplay/faq.php

Also, the console versions are quite fun if you can get around the awful controls.

Coleman `
06-23-2011, 08:43 PM
Yeah I saw the FAQ after I posted this. I'm still not convinced. Just seems like cheating is going to run pretty rampant.

Gatoyoshi
06-23-2011, 08:58 PM
thats just great, valve , you just wiped your damn 4ss with everyone who bought this game before and made it free for damn noobs to cheat :mad::mad::mad:
thanks a lot for ruining this game ♥♥♥♥ you

Rdemption
06-23-2011, 08:59 PM
This is a good question actually.

From the FAQ:

We’re increasing our focus on making sure that hostile players can’t ruin your fun. Specifically, we’ll be keeping a close eye on players exploiting the ability to make infinite free accounts to bypass bans. We’ve built systems that’ll allow us to measure and track what these players are doing, and respond quickly.



thats just great, valve , you just wiped your damn 4ss with everyone who bought this game before and made it free for damn noobs to cheat :mad::mad::mad:
thanks a lot for ruining this game ♥♥♥♥ you

Calm down, read the FAQ.

damaged
06-23-2011, 09:09 PM
You can't stop a determined cheater. And if the system keeps going down like it has, it's hard to imagine that 'responding quickly' will be possible.

CTRL ALT DEL !
06-23-2011, 09:09 PM
LOL @FAQ

How does Valve prevent people from changing there IP and setting up a new account.

If there is no common email addy and no common ip, unless Valve start hardware tagging they can't stop cheats.

Now with hardware tagging what if you buy a used PC or piece of hardware.

Seriously TF2 now needs punkbuster.

__asm
06-23-2011, 09:21 PM
Seriously TF2 now needs punkbuster.

Careful man, the fаnboys will attack.

CTRL ALT DEL !
06-23-2011, 09:48 PM
Careful man, the fаnboys will attack. Well if the multiple account + cheating can't be blocked by Valve, what other option will there be?

Xenofreak
06-23-2011, 09:49 PM
Careful man, the fаnboys will attack.

Honestly, I like VAC more than PB. But, VAC on a F2P game is terrible. Without being forced to rebuy the game the "punishment" model loses all effectiveness. In F2P games a prevention model, such as PB, is better.

I still don't know wtf to think about TF2 being F2P now.

FalconFury10
06-23-2011, 09:50 PM
Free already? weird I never know they've come up with a plan to sell it for free.

Exha
06-23-2011, 10:12 PM
TF2 is now free to h4x.

VAC, why you want more work ? :O

It still a good thing but... As people said VAC is horrible on free games...

CTRL ALT DEL !
06-23-2011, 11:08 PM
Perhaps they are about to start instant banning, but that just means you can test cheats and there will be VAC proof ones in no time.

Xenofreak
06-23-2011, 11:22 PM
Perhaps they are about to start instant banning, but that just means you can test cheats and there will be VAC proof ones in no time.

I was thinking something slightly different. They might be using TF2 as a testing ground again, like they did with micro transactions, except this time it's for developing a system to limit the ability to recreate accounts to cheat on. Could help fight hack development, to some extent, and prevent simply buying 5 copies while they game's on sale for $2.50.

__asm
06-23-2011, 11:29 PM
Perhaps they are about to start instant banning, but that just means you can test cheats and there will be VAC proof ones in no time.

It's easy to VAC proof a cheat in no time if you know what you are doing.

themires
06-23-2011, 11:39 PM
It's easy to VAC proof a cheat in no time if you know what you are doing.

sounds like you know how to hack vac

CTRL ALT DEL !
06-23-2011, 11:44 PM
It think www.vacbanned.com is going to up the percentages on banned accounts.

TacoTime
06-23-2011, 11:48 PM
It think www.vacbanned.com is going to up the percentages on banned accounts.

Not really, VAC is a 3rd rate cheat detection system. If VAC actually banned ALL the people that cheat in the games "protected" by it there would be bans in the 5-7 million range.

CTRL ALT DEL !
06-23-2011, 11:51 PM
Not really, VAC is a 3rd rate cheat detection system. If VAC actually banned ALL the people that cheat in the games "protected" by it there would be bans in the 5-7 million range. VAC works well for paid games. TF2 has been left to the dogs so it seems.

TacoTime
06-24-2011, 12:01 AM
VAC works well for paid games. TF2 has been left to the dogs so it seems.
VAC does not work well for any game, period. I have no idea how you could even think that it does but you are obviously not in the circles I am or as observant as me. I have seen so many people cheating for so many years it is sickening and without repercussion. Relying on VAC banning someone is like playing Russian roulette using a revolver with room for 50 rounds and 1 bullet, it is honestly that poor. Go play Counter-Strike 1.6 for a month then come back, you will want to shoot yourself.

Zefar
06-24-2011, 12:06 AM
In all my time in TF2 I have never spotted a single obvious cheater. I don't think it will change too. TF2 is just not a target for cheaters when they got MW2, Black Ops and CSS to cheat the hell out of in.

I also love the comments "I've seen someone cheats for MONTHS/YEARS!" as they are most likely never right about it. I really doubt that one cheater spending an entire year to cheat on one server. You don't think the Admin would catch this guy normally?

TacoTime
06-24-2011, 12:19 AM
In all my time in TF2 I have never spotted a single obvious cheater. I don't think it will change too. TF2 is just not a target for cheaters when they got MW2, Black Ops and CSS to cheat the hell out of in.TF2 is not exactly a target game for cheating as you had said, and even with cheats there is not much advantage given the game type and the way it functions. The others though especially Counter-Strike is where people are hurting the worst in terms of cheating.


I also love the comments "I've seen someone cheats for MONTHS/YEARS!" as they are most likely never right about it. I really doubt that one cheater spending an entire year to cheat on one server. You don't think the Admin would catch this guy normally?
It has nothing to do with an admin or specific servers, it's the fact that someone can cheat for extended periods of time months to years regardless of location without being VAC banned. I literally have a list of SteamID's I track and check the ID's once a month and with over 100 people on this list 2 people have been banned, 2...

I am not some random newbie, I have been playing CS for 40% of my life (10 years) and top frag on any server I go in. The people I record down on this list are not "skilled players", they are people definitively cheating.

cylon
06-24-2011, 01:22 AM
LOL @FAQ

How does Valve prevent people from changing there IP and setting up a new account.

If there is no common email addy and no common ip, unless Valve start hardware tagging they can't stop cheats.

Now with hardware tagging what if you buy a used PC or piece of hardware.

Seriously TF2 now needs punkbuster.

Well... they already DO hardware IDs of sorts, thats how SteamGuard works.

CTRL ALT DEL !
06-24-2011, 01:29 AM
VAC does not work well for any game, period. I have no idea how you could even think that it does but you are obviously not in the circles I am or as observant as me. I have seen so many people cheating for so many years it is sickening and without repercussion. Relying on VAC banning someone is like playing Russian roulette using a revolver with room for 50 rounds and 1 bullet, it is honestly that poor. Go play Counter-Strike 1.6 for a month then come back, you will want to shoot yourself. I play plenty of cs and css and hackers aren't everywhere and they are usually quickly banned by admins.

What I am having a problem understanding is how can valve defend against repeat cheating?

Email address is no good
IP is no good
Mac address is no good
Windows id is no good
Router id is no good
Game purchases, but then that makes gifting scary.

Hardware id is about the only way, but thats not fair on people that buy used hardware.

Which also brings to mind, if Valve can block repeat offenders, why haven't they been doing it all along and why not with all Valve games or are they?

ZoSo15
06-24-2011, 01:43 AM
I am not some random newbie, I have been playing CS for 40% of my life (10 years) and top frag on any server I go in. The people I record down on this list are not "skilled players", they are people definitively cheating.

You must be extremely unlucky.

I don't even want to count, but I've been playing since right before 1.3, so somewhere around the same length of time. The number of hackers I have seen is not only not in the same ballpark as what you claim, it isn't even on the same continent.

Why is it every time I post in this forum it's a reply to some wild claim of rampant hacking?

Anyway, yeah, hopefully Valve came up with something about curbing hackers in a f2p game. But I played a couple hours tonight and I didn't have any problems. And I think Zefar is right, tf2 is not a hacker's paradise, f2p or not.

TacoTime
06-24-2011, 02:15 AM
I play plenty of cs and css and hackers aren't everywhere and they are usually quickly banned by admins.

What I am having a problem understanding is how can valve defend against repeat cheating?

Email address is no good
IP is no good
Mac address is no good
Windows id is no good
Router id is no good
Game purchases, but then that makes gifting scary.

Hardware id is about the only way, but thats not fair on people that buy used hardware.

Which also brings to mind, if Valve can block repeat offenders, why haven't they been doing it all along and why not with all Valve games or are they?

You must be extremely unlucky.

I don't even want to count, but I've been playing since right before 1.3, so somewhere around the same length of time. The number of hackers I have seen is not only not in the same ballpark as what you claim, it isn't even on the same continent.

Why is it every time I post in this forum it's a reply to some wild claim of rampant hacking?

Anyway, yeah, hopefully Valve came up with something about curbing hackers in a f2p game. But I played a couple hours tonight and I didn't have any problems. And I think Zefar is right, tf2 is not a hacker's paradise, f2p or not.
I am just going to consolidate my answer because your posts borderline each other. It is my personal experience and not "claims" as CTRL ALT DEL ! put it. Chances are we do not even live in the same region so that can also be taken into account, there are different cheating habits in each location.

The point is whether you guys see the cheaters or not is irrelevant to me because I do and they are not banned. 99% of server admins I have ever encountered in my life are incompetents, don't have much experience, cheat themselves, drag the bottom or simply put just don't care. What I am trying to convey to everyone and not just you guys is regardless if you see the cheaters they are there, VAC is not doing its job and I am sick of it.

When you come to a crossroads with a game you have been playing for 10 years (1.3 also) and get so frustrated with the players that you want to quit, that is a major problem. No one should ever have to quit a game because of the actions of other players, ever. With the mindset I have, this is MY game just based on how long I have been around and these young jerks come in without a care in the world and destroy it.

They are here, 1:50 is getting banned and I am tired of it.

P.S. About defending against returning cheaters the only answer is to lock the ban to the hardware. I don't care if multiple users use that computer or if they sell it to someone else, it needs to be done.

Look at this guy for example PIMP_STEVE (http://steamcommunity.com/actions/Search?T=Account&K=%22PIMP_STEVE%22), he terroizes us day in and day out for over a year on server after server cheating on all of these accounts and is only banned on 2! This is absolutely unacceptable!

Nelsonator63
06-24-2011, 02:30 AM
You wait. In 1 month there will be a massive list of banned hackers on the blog.

Phosphor94
06-24-2011, 02:40 AM
Can someone please give me a definition of "hardware tagging" please?

I'm confused as to whether you mean something along the lines of MAC addresses or what.

Either way, MAC addresses can be spoofed, motherboard BIOS can be flashed as can graphics card BIOS.

Amander
06-24-2011, 03:13 AM
Either way, MAC addresses can be spoofed, motherboard BIOS can be flashed as can graphics card BIOS.Except that flashing the BIOS is not exactly always doable. For the mainboard, there might be only a hand full of BIOS updates if any, graphics cards basically never get BIOS updates.

BulletMagnet
06-24-2011, 06:30 AM
Can someone please give me a definition of "hardware tagging" please?

I'm confused as to whether you mean something along the lines of MAC addresses or what.

Either way, MAC addresses can be spoofed, motherboard BIOS can be flashed as can graphics card BIOS.

Every CPU since the Pentium II, has had a unique CPUID, obtainable by a certain opcode. This is true for all brands of CPU.

Davemercd
06-24-2011, 07:01 AM
LOL @FAQ

How does Valve prevent people from changing there IP and setting up a new account.

If there is no common email addy and no common ip, unless Valve start hardware tagging they can't stop cheats.

Now with hardware tagging what if you buy a used PC or piece of hardware.

Seriously TF2 now needs punkbuster.

I would assume there is some other secret behind "Steam Guard" that Valve isn't telling us. I have reason to believe this is what they are going to use to track it.

They will probably make it so that if you are trying to make multiple accounts from the same computer then you will have to enable Steam Guard which will log some sort of information. Then they will check and see if any suspicious activity is going on between the accounts, if they match up, you're ♥♥♥♥ed.

This is just a possible answer so don't take it to heart.

AnAkIn
06-24-2011, 12:45 PM
In all my time in TF2 I have never spotted a single obvious cheater. I don't think it will change too. TF2 is just not a target for cheaters when they got MW2, Black Ops and CSS to cheat the hell out of in.

I also love the comments "I've seen someone cheats for MONTHS/YEARS!" as they are most likely never right about it. I really doubt that one cheater spending an entire year to cheat on one server. You don't think the Admin would catch this guy normally?

No offence, but you either don't play TF2 much or don't know how cheats work/looks like on TF2 then. It's not only about blatant speedhack+aimbot.

TacoTime
06-24-2011, 08:27 PM
No offence, but you either don't play TF2 much or don't know how cheats work/looks like on TF2 then. It's not only about blatant speedhack+aimbot.
Most of the moderators here are not as knowledgeable about things as people would expect, the only help I ever see them provide is links to things without any real incite of their own.

Indeed
06-24-2011, 09:20 PM
Most of the moderators here are not as knowledgeable about things as people would expect, the only help I ever see them provide is links to things without any real incite of their own.

By people, you mean lazy users that refuse to search the Internet?

One simple Google search can get you the same links the Moderators are posting.

is this your way of saying 'Thank You' to the people that go out of their way to help you when you have a problem?

BlackOps101
06-24-2011, 09:21 PM
Actually this is a great topic one I hope doesn't happen, hacking. I don't know if with the steady updates most of these hacks are bye bye now, but if there was some anyone could just hack the game get vac banned then continue making a new account now... :eek:

TacoTime
06-24-2011, 09:52 PM
is this your way of saying 'Thank You' to the people that go out of their way to help you when you have a problem?
I have never been helped by a moderator and most likely know more than they do.

edit: I'm not being cocky.

Indeed
06-24-2011, 11:04 PM
I have never been helped by a moderator and most likely know more than they do.

edit: I'm not being cocky.

Just because you think you do, does not give you the right to insult them.

There are a lot of people that have been helped by Moderators and users too.

Gatoyoshi
06-24-2011, 11:14 PM
I don't think it will change too. TF2 is just not a target for cheaters when they got MW2, Black Ops and CSS to cheat the hell out of in.


which were PAID.

I also love the comments "I've seen someone cheats for MONTHS/YEARS!" as they are most likely never right about it.

No? seriously? damn i always tought speedhack and aimbot completely visible to the whole server meant there was someone using cheats.

I really doubt that one cheater spending an entire year to cheat on one server. You don't think the Admin would catch this guy normally?

Actually, lot of ADMINS use cheats and you cant do a single thing about it but to leave the server and find yourself in another server with cheaters or twelve years olds who will ban you for anything.

Again, this game was destroyed with the items/hats; now it is completely ruined.
thanks valve.

TacoTime
06-24-2011, 11:19 PM
Just because you think you do, does not give you the right to insult them.

There are a lot of people that have been helped by Moderators and users too.

Saying someone is not as knowledgeable as people may think is not an insult, it is an unbiased observation.

Ray.Gamma
06-25-2011, 05:13 AM
Look at this guy for example PIMP_STEVE (http://steamcommunity.com/actions/Search?T=Account&K=%22PIMP_STEVE%22), he terroizes us day in and day out for over a year on server after server cheating on all of these accounts and is only banned on 2! This is absolutely unacceptable!He also has a nice collection of offensive pictures!

Mangr0v3
06-25-2011, 05:26 AM
In all my time in TF2 I have never spotted a single obvious cheater. I don't think it will change too. TF2 is just not a target for cheaters when they got MW2, Black Ops and CSS to cheat the hell out of in.

I've spotted one. Speedhacking aimbotting Heavies are pretty easy to spot.

Zefar
06-25-2011, 07:35 AM
No offence, but you either don't play TF2 much or don't know how cheats work/looks like on TF2 then. It's not only about blatant speedhack+aimbot.

On the account I'm not I got like 82+ hours of playtime. On my other account it's up in like 150 hours. But most of that is played by my brother. Who might have seen one cheater.

If it's wallhack they use it's still up to a users skill to kill the player and if he encounter a skilled person he might die to him due to lack of skill.

TF2 is just not a game that cheaters would be fond of cheating in. Even L4D series had few cheaters.

Why? Well cheaters mainly want to rage people and the games I listed are far better choices to do it in. Far better. The cost probably doesn't matter as MW2 seems to be infected with tons of cheaters. Even when TF2 has been on like a dollar sale it still probably didn't get a lot of cheaters.


Most of the moderators here are not as knowledgeable about things as people would expect, the only help I ever see them provide is links to things without any real incite of their own.

1: We're Moderators, not Support people. We will help if we know how to fix your problem. But we're mainly in charge of cleaning up the forum.

which were PAID.
But all of them are full with cheaters so your point isn't really valid anymore.

No? seriously? damn i always tought speedhack and aimbot completely visible to the whole server meant there was someone using cheats.
I meant in the way that the find the same guy on the same account cheating for MONTHS/YEARS before getting caught. Problem being is that the server they're on seems to have no Admins at all that could just ban him over and over again.

If he makes a new account pricing doesn't seemed to be a problem before. Because people obviously had problems with it.


Actually, lot of ADMINS use cheats and you cant do a single thing about it but to leave the server and find yourself in another server with cheaters or twelve years olds who will ban you for anything.
It's rare that I find an Admin that cheats. Actually I'm not sure I've found ONE. Maybe it just belongs to the USA but certainly not here in Europe as far as I can tell.

Again, this game was destroyed with the items/hats; now it is completely ruined.
thanks valve.

So when the game was worth around $1 it wasn't bad? Or how about the $2.5 price tag? Has it been lower? I think it has. As TF2 have had some of the most outrageous sale prices there is. You're practically stealing the game when you buy it for what would be 99% off.

Not ONCE was it a problem back then. But NOW?
*Catchphrase*

All you'll see is new people playing the game.

AnAkIn
06-25-2011, 09:31 AM
On the account I'm not I got like 82+ hours of playtime. On my other account it's up in like 150 hours. But most of that is played by my brother. Who might have seen one cheater.

If it's wallhack they use it's still up to a users skill to kill the player and if he encounter a skilled person he might die to him due to lack of skill.

TF2 is just not a game that cheaters would be fond of cheating in. Even L4D series had few cheaters.

There are quite a lot of cheaters who do not cheat to rage people, but just play with cheat configs that make them look legit and they claim that they are good.

Coleman `
06-25-2011, 09:47 AM
On the account I'm not I got like 82+ hours of playtime. On my other account it's up in like 150 hours. But most of that is played by my brother. Who might have seen one cheater.

If it's wallhack they use it's still up to a users skill to kill the player and if he encounter a skilled person he might die to him due to lack of skill.

TF2 is just not a game that cheaters would be fond of cheating in. Even L4D series had few cheaters.

Why? Well cheaters mainly want to rage people and the games I listed are far better choices to do it in. Far better. The cost probably doesn't matter as MW2 seems to be infected with tons of cheaters. Even when TF2 has been on like a dollar sale it still probably didn't get a lot of cheaters.Yeah I'm sorry, I've seen you post around here for a couple years, and you've always seemed to know what you're talking about. But I call bull right now.

Are you actually suggesting that a wallhack doesn't effect the gameplay? I have thousands of hours in CS (not an exaggeration), hundreds in Bad Company 2, Black Ops, MW2 and plenty of other games. People that are under the impression that blatant cheats are the only ones that ruin gameplay are seriously mistaken.

Now don't get me confused with other extremists (of either level), I don't think every person I see is a cheater. What I do have is an eye for cheating and it's incredibly easy to tell when it's being done if you actually put your ego aside and look at someone closely. There is a BIG difference between "knowing" someone is behind a corner, and *KNOWING* someone is a behind a corner.

Any good player checks every corner he comes around. But how many of them are ready and prepared to get a kill on someone that is waiting for you around every corner? Because with a wallhack, that's the benefit you get. You don't just think someone is there, you know when they are and can react just as quickly as they can. Yes, they're harder to spot. They're easier to cover up. But even the best players in the world are subject to human reaction time, and when people peek corners and are already firing, odds are it's time to look closer at them.

There are dozens of different kind of cheats that would work worlds in TF2. Wallhacking would likely bust spies (because they still have to report their location to the server, after all.) Aimbotting snipers and spies, speedhacking heavies, not to mention hacks that aren't even "popular" types designed specifically for TF2 (I personally know someone that's been using an pyro-deflect cheat for years). There are plenty of reasons they could do it, and depending on the settings you'd probably never even know.

And contrary to popular belief, trolling is not the only reason people cheat. I've actually talked to plenty of cheaters both reformed and active that had no desire to troll, no desire to make people angry, just wanting to be better. Wanting to be even on the playing field to the players that were better than them. And with no penalty to getting banned, they will flock to TF2.

And just for the record. TF2 gamers are just as susceptible to immature, ragey, tryhards as any other game you listed. Just because it's a "fun" game that's full of humour and jokes, doesn't mean people don't take it way too seriously and get really mad at annoying people/annoying events.

This isn't about attacking a moderator because he's "authority", this isn't about kissing up to you and trying to correct you. I honestly don't care what your title says, I just think you're way off on this one.

Cheating isn't everywhere, it's not nearly as prevalent as some people would want you to think it is, but it's not non-existent either. It is a *BIG* problem. The number on vacbanned.com can help you see that very easily.

Zefar
06-25-2011, 10:06 AM
While wallhack in other games other than TF2 are very effective at what it does. In TF2 it's a different story.

The game isn't entirely reliable on the who sees who first wins. It boils down to skill in some cases or the fact that you can't really counter every class with one class that easily.

For instance Pyros will most likely die to a heavy who they've just started to put fire into against his back. I've done this plenty of times and each time the heavy turns around and before I can even dodge the attack I'm getting slaughtered.

So in TF2 a wallhack is only gonna alert someone if a user comes near you.


As for cheaters sometimes using cheats to get better. Well it's true but they are most likely in a minority.

All in all I don't think TF2 will get a that much of a cheat problem. VACbannned.com do have a huge selection of banned cheaters but I don't think they come from TF2.

Most likely CSS, CS, MW2 and Black Ops.

Coleman `
06-25-2011, 12:30 PM
I can think of way more examples of wallhacks being effective more than you've said.

A wallhack would most likely (obviously I'm no expert in what wall hacks can do) alert you to a cloaked spy passing by you. (On this note, an ESP hack would probably tell you when a DISGUISED spy is passing by you.)

Scouts coming around a corner to ambush someone. Given in CS they used to have cheats that would show you when grenades were coming, I'd imagine wallhacks or variants there in would show you when stickies are on the ground or a doorway if you manage to not be able to see them.

If a sniper is watching a corner, normally they have to lead out a little bit so they have time to react when they see an enemy. But with a wallhack, they could be right up on the corner and know exactly when someone is going to come into their view.

No, not every 1 on 1 class confrontation will work in TF2, that's true. But knowing when an enemy is around a corner or waiting or all these other examples that are possible with a wallhack is a SERIOUS advantage. There is almost no class in the game that is a guaranteed lose in a 1 on 1 situation with any other class. I've taken down heavy medic combos as Scout. I've killed soldiers as an Engineer with only a shotgun. A wallhack would make a significant difference.

And the percentage of cheaters that do it without attempt to rage/troll is a lot higher than you think. I can think of numerous examples where I've caught BLATANT cheaters (and I'm talking about the types that NO ONE would deny is cheating, full on blatant aimbots), called them on it, only to have them vehemently deny it. Tell me about their credentials and how they were CPL 2004 champion and all that crap. There's just as many people that use cheats to "play better" as ones that do it to troll.

In EITHER EVENT, TF2 is ripe for both of them.

Let's pretend you're right in both statements.

A: Most cheaters do it to troll.
B: Other games have gamers that are easier to troll.

Even if both of those are true, TF2 now has virtually no penalty for cheating. Any cheater who has even the slightest bit of brain power is going to realize the following.

"Hmm. I can rage Black Ops and pay 60 dollars every couple of months I get VAC banned. ... Or... I can do it indefinitely in TF2 without ever having to spend a cent!"

You don't think they'd flock to the game to rage people? That's what trolls do. They find the easiest, weakest, most hassle free target and they go to work. They can now do that in TF2 indefinitely. I adore Valve, I really do, I am loyal and loving and I'd even call myself an apologist for Valve at times. But I promise you right now, whatever "measures they have in place to prevent cheaters/griefers" is never going to work. Not in todays society of dynamic IPs, anonymizers, used hardware and all the other means of keeping your identity secret. They'll be able to come back as often as they want with no repercussions.

EpicYarn
06-25-2011, 12:33 PM
OMg the 2 second day after Uber adn F2P, and there are multiple hackers, not just one

TacoTime
06-25-2011, 06:24 PM
I can think of way more examples of wallhacks being effective more than you've said.

A wallhack would most likely (obviously I'm no expert in what wall hacks can do) alert you to a cloaked spy passing by you. (On this note, an ESP hack would probably tell you when a DISGUISED spy is passing by you.)

Scouts coming around a corner to ambush someone. Given in CS they used to have cheats that would show you when grenades were coming, I'd imagine wallhacks or variants there in would show you when stickies are on the ground or a doorway if you manage to not be able to see them.

If a sniper is watching a corner, normally they have to lead out a little bit so they have time to react when they see an enemy. But with a wallhack, they could be right up on the corner and know exactly when someone is going to come into their view.

No, not every 1 on 1 class confrontation will work in TF2, that's true. But knowing when an enemy is around a corner or waiting or all these other examples that are possible with a wallhack is a SERIOUS advantage. There is almost no class in the game that is a guaranteed lose in a 1 on 1 situation with any other class. I've taken down heavy medic combos as Scout. I've killed soldiers as an Engineer with only a shotgun. A wallhack would make a significant difference.

And the percentage of cheaters that do it without attempt to rage/troll is a lot higher than you think. I can think of numerous examples where I've caught BLATANT cheaters (and I'm talking about the types that NO ONE would deny is cheating, full on blatant aimbots), called them on it, only to have them vehemently deny it. Tell me about their credentials and how they were CPL 2004 champion and all that crap. There's just as many people that use cheats to "play better" as ones that do it to troll.

In EITHER EVENT, TF2 is ripe for both of them.

Let's pretend you're right in both statements.

A: Most cheaters do it to troll.
B: Other games have gamers that are easier to troll.

Even if both of those are true, TF2 now has virtually no penalty for cheating. Any cheater who has even the slightest bit of brain power is going to realize the following.

"Hmm. I can rage Black Ops and pay 60 dollars every couple of months I get VAC banned. ... Or... I can do it indefinitely in TF2 without ever having to spend a cent!"

You don't think they'd flock to the game to rage people? That's what trolls do. They find the easiest, weakest, most hassle free target and they go to work. They can now do that in TF2 indefinitely. I adore Valve, I really do, I am loyal and loving and I'd even call myself an apologist for Valve at times. But I promise you right now, whatever "measures they have in place to prevent cheaters/griefers" is never going to work. Not in todays society of dynamic IPs, anonymizers, used hardware and all the other means of keeping your identity secret. They'll be able to come back as often as they want with no repercussions.
This post is 100% on point, they have yet to realize it but they have destroyed the game. I'm going to laugh my ♥♥♥ off when Valve retracts the game being F2P and charges again.

scotland372
06-25-2011, 07:06 PM
On my other account it's up in like 150 hours. But most of that is played by my brother.

You share an account with your brother? Sounds like you're a prime candidate for account suspension.

Teh_Guy
06-26-2011, 12:37 AM
99% of server admins I have ever encountered in my life are incompetents, don't have much experience, cheat themselves, drag the bottom or simply put just don't care. What I am trying to convey to everyone and not just you guys is regardless if you see the cheaters they are there, VAC is not doing its job and I am sick of it.

well, that's what you get when servers allow you to get admin privileges by using mommy and daddy's money; six year olds who ban anyone higher up than them on the board.

and to all the people raging about it being F2P, well, you have a choice NOT to play it. VALVe made TF2 F2P and I really doubt all the ♥♥♥♥♥ing here is going to do anything about it until their method for catching and maintaining cheaters has been assessed and what not

Amander
06-26-2011, 03:04 AM
I wonder if anyone bothered reading the FAQ... Valve clearly stated that they're taking measures to prevent people from creating infinite free accounts.

scotland372
06-26-2011, 05:00 AM
I wonder if anyone bothered reading the FAQ...

I did.

Valve clearly stated that they're taking measures to prevent people from creating infinite free accounts.

They take measures to do lots of things but it doesn't mean it's going to work everytime.

What do you think they will do to prevent cheaters making unlimited free accounts? Are you not even curious?

Regardless, I don't even play TF2 anymore since it's descended into a micro transaction hatfest, but it's hard to see how they will keep determined cheaters out.

Amander
06-26-2011, 05:12 AM
I did.



They take measures to do lots of things but it doesn't mean it's going to work everytime.

What do you think they will do to prevent cheaters making unlimited free accounts? Are you not even curious?

Regardless, I don't even play TF2 anymore since it's descended into a micro transaction hatfest, but it's hard to see how they will keep determined cheaters out.I am curious, but I think that wild speculations (especially those about "It won't work") are extremely dumb. It's not like I don't enjoy thinking out in the wild, but I prefer doing something more useful than inventing reasons why things won't work. Sooner or later, we'll know.
And you don't have to jump onto the pay-per-hat-bandwagon. TF2 is pretty much the same with or without a hat.

scotland372
06-26-2011, 05:21 AM
And you don't have to jump onto the pay-per-hat-bandwagon. TF2 is pretty much the same with or without a hat.

Never said it wasn't the same, just that it's ♥♥♥♥, that's all.

Coleman `
06-26-2011, 09:32 AM
I wonder if anyone bothered reading the FAQ... Valve clearly stated that they're taking measures to prevent people from creating infinite free accounts.

And I wonder if anyone has bothered reading the rest of the posts in this thread. As has been said by me and a few others, any method they use in todays society means jack all.

Ban by email? Change email.
Ban by IP? Change IP.
Ban by IP? Anonymizer.

The only thing even remotely effective would be banning by hardware, and if they have extra components around then it wouldn't matter. That could also mean signing in on someone elses computer UNDER THEIR OWN ACCOUNT, and getting the *OTHER* persons machine banned. Not to mention if they sold their hardware legally to someone else, that person would then be banned.

Again I will say I love Valve, and I am not the type to bash Valve or VAC or generally say anything ill of them at all. But there is very little they can do in todays society to prevent someone from cheating in a free game. Not unless VAC starts banning people the second they join a game with cheats installed.

Amander
06-26-2011, 09:56 AM
And I wonder if anyone has bothered reading the rest of the posts in this thread. As has been said by me and a few others, any method they use in todays society means jack all.

Ban by email? Change email.
Ban by IP? Change IP.
Ban by IP? Anonymizer.

The only thing even remotely effective would be banning by hardware, and if they have extra components around then it wouldn't matter. That could also mean signing in on someone elses computer UNDER THEIR OWN ACCOUNT, and getting the *OTHER* persons machine banned. Not to mention if they sold their hardware legally to someone else, that person would then be banned.

Again I will say I love Valve, and I am not the type to bash Valve or VAC or generally say anything ill of them at all. But there is very little they can do in todays society to prevent someone from cheating in a free game. Not unless VAC starts banning people the second they join a game with cheats installed.You just mention some methods which clearly don't work. Dude, neither you nor I are all-knowing and I would even say that we know less than Valve programmers. So if neither you nor I can imagine bullet-proof methods (although I can imagine more than you do), it doesn't mean there are none. Especially is there no reason in claiming "It won't work" without further proof.
BTW, VAC uses a delayed ban system on purpose.

BigJoey354
06-26-2011, 10:07 AM
Everyone calm yo ***s. They probably made it free because they might be making a new one. one that'll be so boss that no one will want to play TF2 anymore.

Coleman `
06-26-2011, 11:10 AM
You just mention some methods which clearly don't work. Dude, neither you nor I are all-knowing and I would even say that we know less than Valve programmers. So if neither you nor I can imagine bullet-proof methods (although I can imagine more than you do), it doesn't mean there are none. Especially is there no reason in claiming "It won't work" without further proof.
BTW, VAC uses a delayed ban system on purpose.
Okay, go ahead. Name a method they could use that can ID a target remotely and prevent them from registering a new account.

I'll wait.

And yes, oh king of the obvious, I am well aware of why VAC uses a delayed ban system. Soap boxes don't suit people on the internet trying to inform others of things that are matters of public record. A delayed ban system with a free game that they can cheat freely at will do... wait for it... NOTHING.

Coleman `
06-26-2011, 11:11 AM
Everyone calm yo ***s. They probably made it free because they might be making a new one. one that'll be so boss that no one will want to play TF2 anymore.
And no, this is absurd. They made it free because the money they make from the MannCo store is substantial.

If they were coming out with a new one, 90% of people would flock from TF2 to TF3. That would dry up TF2, and they would get considerably less money from the MannCo store. Which means that making a game free that is now out of date would likely LOSE business rather than what they're doing right now which is going to GAIN business.

BigJoey354
06-26-2011, 05:37 PM
And no, this is absurd. They made it free because the money they make from the MannCo store is substantial.

If they were coming out with a new one, 90% of people would flock from TF2 to TF3. That would dry up TF2, and they would get considerably less money from the MannCo store. Which means that making a game free that is now out of date would likely LOSE business rather than what they're doing right now which is going to GAIN business.

Yeah, immediately after I posted that I was like "wtf am I talking about?"

10choice
06-27-2011, 06:58 AM
You share an account with your brother? Sounds like you're a prime candidate for account suspension.

Zeffar,hahaha this is so true,i posted some threath talking about this,and guess what...hahahah so very true!!!!

scotland372
06-27-2011, 07:08 AM
Zeffar,hahaha this is so true,i posted some threath talking about this,and guess what...hahahah so very true!!!!

Shame I got an infraction for it, looks like mods stick together even when they break the rules...

TacoTime
06-27-2011, 07:26 AM
I am curious, but I think that wild speculations (especially those about "It won't work") are extremely dumb.Yeah because VAC works right lol? (sarcasm)

Zefar
06-27-2011, 02:00 PM
If you need to know it was like this.

Both me and my brother started on one account on the same PC. We bought games to it and shared the cost. All though once it got to the point we got two PCs powerful enough to play several Steam games together I made a new one.

It's only been within the household which Valve are just fine with.

But that is off topic.

scotland372
06-27-2011, 02:13 PM
It's only been within the household which Valve are just fine with.

But that is off topic.

So Valve are fine with account sharing as long as it's in the same household? That's news to me.

The SSA says : You may not reveal, share or otherwise allow others to use your password or Account.

You're right though, major OT.