Gunplay Questions

[Thundermuffin]

Nuclear Dawn popped up on Steam for me today (and was pretty cheap, so I assumed it was a small dev and might actually be interesting), so I took a look and it kind of got me thinking of preordering it. My only concern is the gunplay, though, as I have a kind of old school taste when it comes to spread, recoil, and guns.

I'm hoping someone here has played RtCW or one of the ET games and will understand what I'm talking about and be able to relate it to that. Are the guns in this game going to have random spread and tons of recoil that make great players horrible on purpose? I'm really use to games like Enemy Territory: QUAKE Wars where you were able to move around, strafejump, etc., and were able to shoot and be really quite accurate when compared to other modern shooters and their gunplay. I just don't want to play another game with lottery spread and horribly slow gameplay after buying Wolfenstein 2009 and BRINK and getting burnt on both of them, because of the horrible gunplay. It ended up killing both of the games (well it will kill BRINK after the ESL tournaments are over). I just don't want to buy another game where the devs handicap the good players by putting spread, limiting how you can jump, or making it have so much recoil that your only option is to use ironsights.

I looked at the videos and tried to Youtube for more, but wasn't able to find anything that really showed me if it was low spread, low recoil, fast gameplay or if it was more high spread, high recoil with the game moving as fast as a snail. Didn't really see anyone compare it to old school shooters in here either, so I couldn't really try to figure it out for myself.

[Hyraltia]

Nuclear Dawn popped up on Steam for me today (and was pretty cheap, so I assumed it was a small dev and might actually be interesting), so I took a look and it kind of got me thinking of preordering it. My only concern is the gunplay, though, as I have a kind of old school taste when it comes to spread, recoil, and guns.

I'm hoping someone here has played RtCW or one of the ET games and will understand what I'm talking about and be able to relate it to that. Are the guns in this game going to have random spread and tons of recoil that make great players horrible on purpose? I'm really use to games like Enemy Territory: QUAKE Wars where you were able to move around, strafejump, etc., and were able to shoot and be really quite accurate when compared to other modern shooters and their gunplay. I just don't want to play another game with lottery spread and horribly slow gameplay after buying Wolfenstein 2009 and BRINK and getting burnt on both of them, because of the horrible gunplay. It ended up killing both of the games (well it will kill BRINK after the ESL tournaments are over). I just don't want to buy another game where the devs handicap the good players by putting spread, limiting how you can jump, or making it have so much recoil that your only option is to use ironsights.

I looked at the videos and tried to Youtube for more, but wasn't able to find anything that really showed me if it was low spread, low recoil, fast gameplay or if it was more high spread, high recoil with the game moving as fast as a snail. Didn't really see anyone compare it to old school shooters in here either, so I couldn't really try to figure it out for myself.

Lots of spread and recoil doesn't make good players bad, it separates good players from bad players. Play some RainbowSix Vegas 2 and you'll see how recoil and spread separate the community into bad and good, those who are good will ALWAYS come out on top of those who do not know how to burst fire/control the spread and recoil. Less recoil, less spread=less thinking needed=mindless drones can play the game=/=skill.

[Thundermuffin]

Come on, you have to be kidding me if you think less spread and recoil makes you a mindless drone who doesn't have to think about anything. Have you ever even heard of or played any of the Wolfenstein/ET games? Heck even Q3/QL don't have that much spread as the shotgun's spread is static and always falls the same way every time. Do you consider the people to play that to be mindless and unskilled?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vmSJqKW68Y

(note: the only reason that looks so far away is because his fov is set to 110, he's really only a few meters away)

Tell me now that spread and recoil is amazing and separates the great players from the bad. Look at how his gun flies in different directions and the spread is never the same so no good player could actually overcome that. He isn't even moving or anything, so imagine that spread and recoil when you're moving (fun fact: it was a coin flip to who would win firefights even if you were facing the best teams in the game) because it would be just guessing which way to pull your gun. Do you think that makes someone good, the fact they can guess which way to pull their gun? Games that have spread and recoil are fine (most fast paced, low spread/recoil games had spread but it was still a tight circle but it wasn't unforgiving like most modern shooters where your crosshair can be an inch away from a person but still hit) as long as it's in check and easily controllable by a player, but have you seen a game like that lately? Because I haven't gotten to play one that's fast paced with controllable spread and recoil in years.

Still have no idea what this game plays like, but at least I got to type of all of that about why I don't like games with lotto spread and stupid amounts of recoil. Maybe now someone will know what I'm asking even better and be able to answer. :)

[C0rPs3]

Well, from what I've seen the spread of the mp 7 looks pretty tight with barely any recoil.
AR seems to have very tight burst spread, don't know what happens when you go full auto, it will probably (hopefully) go wild.

Keep in mind though, this is all based on what I've seen in video's. You'll have to wait for an answer from a dev or wait for the beta, I could give you a better opinion.

(fyi, I used to play wolfenstein ET a long time ago and I've been playing QW for the past 3 years, if it is going to be anything close to QW weapons handling I'm going to like it.)

[Thundermuffin]

(fyi, I used to play wolfenstein ET a long time ago and I've been playing QW for the past 3 years, if it is going to be anything close to QW weapons handling I'm going to like it.)

Yeah, QW spread would probably be perfect for this game since it doesn't have strafejumping. Loved playing that game and hated to see the game's competitive scene die with TGL/STA Season 4, especially since we were on track to play hubris in the finals. :( If it's pretty close to QW gunplay wise and the game looks like it'll live longer than 2 weeks I'll probably pick it up, lol.

[Hyraltia]

Come on, you have to be kidding me if you think less spread and recoil makes you a mindless drone who doesn't have to think about anything. Have you ever even heard of or played any of the Wolfenstein/ET games? Heck even Q3/QL don't have that much spread as the shotgun's spread is static and always falls the same way every time. Do you consider the people to play that to be mindless and unskilled?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vmSJqKW68Y

(note: the only reason that looks so far away is because his fov is set to 110, he's really only a few meters away)

Tell me now that spread and recoil is amazing and separates the great players from the bad. Look at how his gun flies in different directions and the spread is never the same so no good player could actually overcome that. He isn't even moving or anything, so imagine that spread and recoil when you're moving (fun fact: it was a coin flip to who would win firefights even if you were facing the best teams in the game) because it would be just guessing which way to pull your gun. Do you think that makes someone good, the fact they can guess which way to pull their gun? Games that have spread and recoil are fine (most fast paced, low spread/recoil games had spread but it was still a tight circle but it wasn't unforgiving like most modern shooters where your crosshair can be an inch away from a person but still hit) as long as it's in check and easily controllable by a player, but have you seen a game like that lately? Because I haven't gotten to play one that's fast paced with controllable spread and recoil in years.

Still have no idea what this game plays like, but at least I got to type of all of that about why I don't like games with lotto spread and stupid amounts of recoil. Maybe now someone will know what I'm asking even better and be able to answer. :)

I've played brink and own it, the games issues do not lie in the spread and recoil, it lies in the fact that every moron is using a smg which is designed for close range combat and not for ADS at long ranges then rages that spread and recoil are too much for them to handle, use the assault rifles and then come back and say spread and recoil are too much on brink, you nulled your entire post by placing that video of a carb9 spray and pray newb.

I again direct you to RainbowSix Vegas 2, either go look up competitive matches and see how they play, then look at pub scrubs, or better yet, play it yourself, you'll most likely rage and cry that you cannot aim, news flash though, tons and tons of skilled players can aim extremely well and take down enemies at distances using guns with high spread and recoil, it's all a matter of skill and burst firing.

Seriously when trying to make a point about spread and recoil, that more=less skill needed, do not post a video of brink carb 9 spray, the game is an atrocity of imbalanced guns and smg spam. Like I said before, if you wanted to make a point, post an assault rifle from brink, but guess what, they have tight spread and more recoil to compensate for that tighter spread.

[C0rPs3]

Please keep the Brink discussions to the SD forums or the Bethesda forums, it has no place here on the Nuclear Dawn forums.
The OP merely used said games as examples of what he actually means, no need to make them the main point of this thread...
So let's stay civil, yeah?

[Thundermuffin]

I've played brink and own it, the games issues do not lie in the spread and recoil, it lies in the fact that every moron is using a smg which is designed for close range combat and not for ADS at long ranges then rages that spread and recoil are too much for them to handle, use the assault rifles and then come back and say spread and recoil are too much on brink, you nulled your entire post by placing that video of a carb9 spray and pray newb.

I again direct you to RainbowSix Vegas 2, either go look up competitive matches and see how they play, then look at pub scrubs, or better yet, play it yourself, you'll most likely rage and cry that you cannot aim, news flash though, tons and tons of skilled players can aim extremely well and take down enemies at distances using guns with high spread and recoil, it's all a matter of skill and burst firing.

Seriously when trying to make a point about spread and recoil, that more=less skill needed, do not post a video of brink carb 9 spray, the game is an atrocity of imbalanced guns and smg spam. Like I said before, if you wanted to make a point, post an assault rifle from brink, but guess what, they have tight spread and more recoil to compensate for that tighter spread.

Calm down; I don't really want to talk about BRINK in their forum as I was just using it for comparison's sake as it added lots of spread and recoil in to the Wolfenstein formula and was abandoned and ridiculed by RtCW, W:ET and ET:QW players because of it so if the spread in this game is like BRINK's I know I won't like it.

If you really want to continue telling me how I'm wrong, how I'm a newb (by the way, dignitas and epilson were using the carb-9, want to tell them they're newbs as well? :)), etc., please do so via PM so I can at least hope a dev answers my perfectly reasonable question; if this game does have tight spread and low recoil, I'd probably start to spam it to all my friends who quit BRINK after a week and went back to looking for a tight spread, low recoil, fast paced game.

Just so you know, I did YouTube videos of Vegas 2 competitive matches and frag videos and didn't find anything amazing about the game at all. It played slow like every other shooter and the gunplay was uninteresting and not dynamic enough for me. Plus the game had 3rd person elements, that's just bad for a competitive title. :(

[Rahabib]

I think Brink has taught us one thing... wait for the demo or wait for some real game play (not just clips) to make up your mind.

Also, I understand where you are coming from. Cones dont make skilled games. I think there is a lack of communication on what you are referring to. I used to play a bit of W:ET and a bit of QW so I get what you want for guns.

First off, guns should be accurate... generally. single shot and burst fire should be "I hit what I am aiming for." Spray and pray with large "cones" is the main problem in Brink and other games. No matter how much you line up your shots, not every shot will hit where you aim. In a game as fast paced as Brink, its more noticable and frustrating when it doesnt matter if you line up your shots when you can spray the cone area and get just as many hits.

Next, recoil isnt all bad. I think what you mean is uncontrollable recoil. vertical or predictable recoil adds some skill to the game (Day of Defeat style). Those who learn how to control the recoil and know how to burst fire, can hit the target at a predictable rate. Recoil isnt all bad because it gives a bit of a variable to hit a target at long rage. Lower recoil means you can hit more at long range. To me this is better than just having a gun that can hit at long range but do less damage (which, does work fine for balance like in W:ET, but never been my cup of tea).

Anyway, I think the overall question is... if I shoot something using single fire or burst, will I hit it, or am I just as likely to hit something to saturate a general cone area (spray and pray)? If its spray and pray like Brink and many other games, I also will have to pass - or wait for an SDK - *before* buying (not like Brink where they pull the feature after launch).

[Custom333]

First few shots should be accurate, and after that, no spray accuracy. It's only decent. Any nub can point and hold the mouse, some skill is needed for high-recoil weapons, and without skill games are nothing.

[Me2nice]

First few shots should be accurate, and after that, no spray accuracy. It's only decent. Any nub can point and hold the mouse, some skill is needed for high-recoil weapons, and without skill games are nothing.

Nothing but games, that is.

[Orange Ninja]

Guys, there's no reason to worry. The Source engine has dynamic cone of fire and recoil built into it - if you like CS:S's gunplay, then chances are ND's is quite similar. So whether you're hitting a target or not won't be down to a statistic. ;)

[Me2nice]

Guys, there's no reason to worry. The Source engine has dynamic cone of fire and recoil built into it - if you like CS:S's gunplay, then chances are ND's is quite similar. So whether you're hitting a target or not won't be down to a statistic. ;)

I see what you did thar. Sneaky bastard.