Limit timed strings to mods

[Stevoisiak]

We all know about the recent leak that happened with Steam's new trading system. I was talking with fellow mods about it, and Rocket came up with the idea of limiting any "timed" strings to moderators until they have been released.

So, for example, the Steam trading string would only be able to be seen by mods until the actual trading system released. This way, the string can still be translated before the feature is released, without as much of a chance of leaking.

[Vuma]

Was it really a leak? I spoke with Torsten about it but he said the developers didn't have a problem with it being released on STS, so...

[Rocket!]

Which is pretty good natured of 'em, but being able to have Mods-- people you most certainly should be able to trust-- have a crack at strings before they're set into the wild would be a major boon. Instead of releasing strings onto STS at the last minute to circumvent hype murdering leaks for game and client updates (I would mention tools but, well, I translate Pirate. xD), scavenger hunt seasonal sales, and the whole nine yards with a fair bit more security about it!

Self-deprecating cards on the table-- the definition of "trustworthy" may very well not be inherently "Moderator". We're translators-- Moderators are picked by virtue of stellar/hyperactive translating skills. Trustability, if you will, wasn't given careful consideration in picking no small amount of current Mods. So there's no pretending this is the world's greatest, most foolproof idea. (Putting this into action would, then change the criteria for Modship.)

But the weight on the shoulders that comes from being a Moderator-- I'd bet on that.

So, to recap!

Moderators are arguably less liable for leaks, by both comparable numbers and, well, having been picked to be a Moderator.

Having these strings translated before the time where the strings would go live would mean native speakers don't have to sit around waiting for the next update to have the last update translated proper. That's certainly something to be said for the achievement scavenger hunts that go on during major sales, too.

Given the end result-- timely, on the ball translations-- I gotta say, I think it's worth trying.

[akarpuzov]

What were the leaked strings about and when were they leaked?

[Suomis]

What were the leaked strings about and when were they leaked?

The trade-system strings, probably half a week ago or so.


On topic: I like the idea of timed strings, but it could be a bit unfair to the active, but trustable active non-mods. (Not that Finnish has a lot of them, though...) But in some languages this could be a real elitism-feature. Since a lot of languages are nearly fully translated, with only a few storefronts left etc, the non-mods wouldn't get to translate ♥♥♥♥ (depending on how rare the timed strings were).

In Finnish this wouldn't be a problem, though, since we only have a handfull of active translators, of which most are mods + we do have 4k+ storefronts and ~30 FAQs to translate... Here people can't say that they don't have anything to translate, like they can in some other languages.

[Dragory]

How about translators sign an NDA (breaching of which would result in horrific punishments to your account) and everybody's happy?
Wouldn't be that simple, but...

[Thebigone]

I think we can all agree that the ideal end result would be day-zero localizations, as in, new content fully translated on release. This should be possible with Dota 2, since we (or atleast some of us) will be getting pre-release access to those tokens.
NDAs haven't stopped people from leaking details - for example in the case of Battlefield 3 alpha, dozens, if not hundreds of gameplay videos leaked. The cons outweigh the pros, and STS is voluntary after all.
The current situation could be improved by updating localizations more often (both to Steam and STS), at best that would get us day-one translations, which is as close as we can get without trusted access to strings before release.

[Calade]

Was it really a leak? I spoke with Torsten about it but he said the developers didn't have a problem with it being released on STS, so...

I agree with this. It doesn't say anywhere that we shouldn't tell others about the stuff on the Translation Server and I'm quite sure if some strings actually were secret, they would notify us about it and make us "sign" an NDA.

If Valve adds something there on purpose, I really don't see the problem here. And if they add something secret accidentally, not our problem.

[Dragory]

I agree with this. It doesn't say anywhere that we shouldn't tell others about the stuff on the Translation Server and I'm quite sure if some strings actually were secret, they would notify us about it and make us "sign" an NDA.

If Valve adds something there on purpose, I really don't see the problem here. And if they add something secret accidentally, not our problem.

Now, they wouldn't have to worry about these accidents if we had an NDA and pre-release access to most strings.

[Snipufin]

How about translators sign an NDA (breaching of which would result in horrific punishments to your account) and everybody's happy?
Wouldn't be that simple, but...

When I asked Torsten about it, he said that they cannot do that, because things shouldn't be allowed to be available outside of Valve offices(that's how I understood it) in advance.

I personally wouldn't have nothing wrong against an NDA, as I myself find it somewhat irritating for having new content in English, before they can be translated. That COULD be one reason why people dislike localizations.

[Vaught]

I agree with this. It doesn't say anywhere that we shouldn't tell others about the stuff on the Translation Server and I'm quite sure if some strings actually were secret, they would notify us about it and make us "sign" an NDA.

If Valve adds something there on purpose, I really don't see the problem here. And if they add something secret accidentally, not our problem.

While it's generally not against the rules to throw them around the public, it's frowned upon and shows a lack of restraint. I, for one, would be in favor of this 'timed string' thing. Would reduce the chances of things that aren't supposed to be known until its officially announced.

I also spoke to Thor about it and he's told me that while it is a pain in the ♥♥♥, there's little one can do once its out in the world. :c

[Calade]

While it's generally not against the rules to throw them around the public, it's frowned upon and shows a lack of restraint. I, for one, would be in favor of this 'timed string' thing. Would reduce the chances of things that aren't supposed to be known until its officially announced.

I also spoke to Thor about it and he's told me that while it is a pain in the ♥♥♥, there's little one can do once its out in the world. :c

Frowned upon only by other Translation Server users, it seems. Seriously, if Valve didn't want us to spread these things around, the least they could do is write so on the site. Otherwise they (or anyone else) have no right or reason to "frown upon" anything.

[Rocket!]

Definitely. The matter's in Valve's hands-- if this is a problem, then the nice people over at Valve should take steps to fix it, including clarifying that spreading these strings around is a no-no. Otherwise, it's "officially" alright.

I'm still of a mind it's not. xD But your logic's plenty sound, Calade.

Regarding NDAs-- like Thebigone said, how do you know who leaked what? Non-Disclosure Agreements aren't really an option, given the anonymity involved in all that which is the internet and the hassle involved in setting aside manpower just to hunt down people who breach such an agreement.

@Suomis-- I believe it. xD This is hardly a perfect solution I'm suggesting, and I agree- there's a lot of people I'd swear would be trustworthy as all gets out that aren't mods that I'd love to think up a solution for in this kind of suggestion! But any kind of selection process for picking out certain members would be eeeeerily similar to the selection process for picking out moderators, right?If we were to take the time to sit down and pick out all the people who deserve the right to have first crack at sensitive strings, wouldn't the same line of logic be applied for suggesting said translators should be mods?

I'm not so blind as to say it's impossible to think up some compromise of sorts. xD

But... nothing feasible's coming to mind. Any suggestions?

[heffebaycay]

I agree with this. It doesn't say anywhere that we shouldn't tell others about the stuff on the Translation Server and I'm quite sure if some strings actually were secret, they would notify us about it and make us "sign" an NDA.Indeed, you're not legally bound to keep what you can see and read secret. However, as an approved user on STS you're supposed to translate/review content... not handle Valve PR. But feel free to apply on their website (http://www.valvesoftware.com/jobs/), I heard they're always hiring!

And if they add something secret accidentally, not our problem.Didn't know selfish was spelled 'Calade' in Finnish. You could also be nice and report this content... not like you never made any mistake before. Seriously, it seems you moral compass went completely haywire.

Seriously, if Valve didn't want us to spread these things around, the least they could do is write so on the site. Otherwise they (or anyone else) have no right or reason to "frown upon" anything.I'm not very familiar with Finnish laws, but I would hope from a Western country to have the right to like or dislike people at will. I personally don't like people copying string outside of STS because it shows their priorities are messed up.


But... nothing feasible's coming to mind. Any suggestions?

As TheBigOne rightfully said, getting all the content translated on release date would be great for the end users. Since apparently it is both morally and legally difficult to transition from the current situation to that ideal state, we could imagine another update system which would check for language file updates on game launch.
Updating a language file wouldn't require waiting for a full update to be scheduled by Valve, and instead of getting the translations updated 24hours after an update is released, they could be available in a couple of hours only. That's a fair compromise I think.

[Calade]

Well well, didn't take too many posts for me to run into the first troll here. This is why I hate forums... can't resist answering to these people.

Nobody on the Translation Server is bound legally, morally, ethically or in any other way to keep quiet about the content released there. There is quite simply nothing wrong with telling others about it; sharing interesting things is just human nature. This whole topic is pretty much something you have developed in your heads. Once more, if Valve wanted it to be secret, they would say so. Now I'm not the most active person in the community, but as far as I know from asking around, they never have said that it's secret. But I guess our friend heffebaycay here is a superior form of life that knows what Valve people really want before they do.

But darn, he seems to have proved me wrong! Not just anyone can do that, this is most embarrassing. You do indeed legally have the right to dislike people for nothing just like you have the right to have racist opinions. My bad.

Was it really a leak? I spoke with Torsten about it but he said the developers didn't have a problem with it being released on STS, so...

So yea, there is no way we can know what Valve is okay with being released early on STS and what not. My default assumption is that the professionals over there know what they are doing, and I think it would be quite annoying for them if we all started emailing them to check these things each time something does end up on STS prior to official release.

And heffebaycay, I'm sure you didn't know how 'selfish' is spelled in Finnish as you probably don't speak the language. I can link you to some really good online learning pages if you're interested. I do have to warn you though, it is pretty much always ranked in the top 3 of the hardest languages to learn.

[heffebaycay]

Nobody on the Translation Server is bound legally, morally, ethically or in any other way to keep quiet about the content released there. Didn't say they aren't.

sharing interesting things is just human nature. It is.

Once more, if Valve wanted it to be secret, they would say so. Now I'm not the most active person in the communityWould you feel free to post some details about some unreleased content you have access to if — hypothetically — Valve told you not to (no nda involved)? Just being curious.

Now I'm not the most active person in the community, but as far as I know from asking around, they never have said that it's secret. But I guess our friend heffebaycay here is a superior form of life that knows what Valve people really want before they do.After, actually. But you're right in the beginning of your last sentence. Seriously though, before STS was created Valve sent contracts to some translators (me and others). Here are some interesting bits:

Contractor expressly undertakes to retain in confidence all information and knowhow: transmitted to Contractor by Company or by third persons and which Company has designated as proprietary and/or confidential, or which, by the nature of the circumstances surrounding the disclosure, should in good faith be treated as proprietary and/or confidential. Notice how they expect the contractor to use his head to understand what can be considered confidential when he's not told some content could be confidential.

Included within Company's proprietary and confidential information covered by this Agreement, without limitation, are the following: [...] (ii) information not generally available or understood to be available to the public and which is used in the design or development of the Company’s products and in the Company’s business operations;There, you have the official legal position of Valve regarding a translation project that did not contain anything the public didn't have access to. I'm not saying you should respect this of course (not your contract), but that can give you an idea of what could be their official legal position for a project such as STS.


So yea, there is no way we can know what Valve is okay with being released early on STS and what not. My default assumption is that the professionals over there know what they are doing, and I think it would be quite annoying for them if we all started emailing them to check these things each time something does end up on STS prior to official releaseMy default assumption is that unless the content is already known to the public, I should ask every time before spreading the word. It actually works: so far I always got an answer to my questions. But I'm not legally bound to, it's just my own code of ethic.

And heffebaycay, I'm sure you didn't know how 'selfish' is spelled in Finnish as you probably don't speak the language. I can link you to some really good online learning pages if you're interested. I do have to warn you though, it is pretty much always ranked in the top 3 of the hardest languages to learn.Thanks for the offer, but for now I have no good reason to learn Finnish. I'll stick to English, French, Spanish and Italian a bit.

[Calade]

You sure are persistent.


I'm not saying you should respect this of course (not your contract), but that can give you an idea of what could be their official legal position for a project such as STS.


I could also be the king of the world and you could be a pink bunny. But sadly, we aren't. We are who we are, and Valve's official legal position for STS is what I have been describing here in my posts.

And if Valve told me to keep quiet, I would. Even without NDA. I haven't shared anything anywhere so far either, but that's just because I'm slow and tend to miss stuff like this before they actually go public.

[heffebaycay]

You sure are persistent.Nah I just hate being misread, and you did it again.

I could also be the king of the world and you could be a pink bunny. But sadly, we aren't. We are who we are, and Valve's official legal position for STS is what I have been describing here in my posts.Never said anything about Valve's official legal position is, but rather what it could be based on a legal document I was sent (That is the part you misread).

Valve legal position about STS is the unknown of this thread. Find it and the thread is solved.

[Calade]

I believe you are the one misreading me. Have you ever heard the phrase "woulda coulda shoulda"? I was implying that since Valve technically has an official legal position regarding STS, your could-be is useless in this topic.

So yes, Valve's legal position about STS is not exactly unknown. As they have not given us any terms or conditions, from the law's point of view it could be called "do what you want". As long as it doesn't break any actual laws, that is. And so it shall remain until Valve states otherwise.

[heffebaycay]

Have you ever heard the phrase "woulda coulda shoulda"?No, I had never heard that phrase before.

I was implying that since Valve technically has an official legal position regarding STS, your could-be is useless in this topic.

So yes, Valve's legal position about STS is not exactly unknown. As they have not given us any terms or conditions, from the law's point of view it could be called "do what you want". As long as it doesn't break any actual laws, that is. And so it shall remain until Valve states otherwise.I'm a Maths major not a lawyer, and I have absolutely no knowledge of the various US laws so I cannot in good faith tell whether what you're saying makes sense or not. However if it does, there should be no issue for Valve to add the following thing to the faq page:

Q: Does STS have any confidentiality rules?
Users are free to discuss publicly any content added to STS.

[Hachach19]

Hi Calade! Welcome to the forums, *hugs* (even though you're not really new here. But keep the hug anyway.)

Don't worry, it's normal to be called names and stuff in here. You can't expect anyone to accept your way of living, your opinion, your country, your language or you for that matter. Again, you don't have to respect them either. Seeing how people can literally call you a moron for having your own opinion and get away with it, there's not really any limits here (personal experience). I prefer calling these forums 'hell', but it's nice whenever we can get a nice discussion here and there. Of course, the TF2 and L4D2 forums have completely forgotten about this. The obvious trolls there are just too obvious to be noticed, apparently.

*ahem*, okay, enough about that. I was hoping we could avoid these discussions about everything I mentioned above, especially in this forum. Of course, as this is the Internet, it's completely impossible. I personally find it hard to find nice discussions here, but the off-topic seems to be somewhat decent (that's where the moderators hang out, afaik.) Just keep the mood high, and it'll spread :) Or hit you in the face with an insult.

We all know about the recent leak that happened with Steam's new trading system.
Do we now? I never saw them as leaks, but rather just released string for us to translate ahead of time. Valve didn't make a big deal/announcement out of it, and I don't really think anyone even bothered to tell everyone about it (I sure didn't).

So, for example, the Steam trading string would only be able to be seen by mods until the actual trading system released.
Perhaps, but why? I guess moderators could be somewhat more quiet about it, but we were never required to be silent about it anyway. I know I'm the only active moderator at the moment, and I wouldn't want to be all alone with lots of strings for bigger updates in the future.
This way, the string can still be translated before the feature is released, without as much of a chance of leaking.
You're right, but I think it might slow down the progress for some languages. Again, perhaps it won't.

[Rocket!]

@heffebaycay: Case in point-- Valve hasn't added that to the FAQ. It's a good place to put that kind of information, and it's a safe bet that that'll be the place where we get an answer to this question if Torsten & Co. decide not to answer us here on the forums.

@Calade: The idea, as I think you've already reasoned, is that companies enjoy having control over the whens and hows of announcing things-- it keeps unpredictable variables to a minimum, and lets 'em control hype to a fair degree. It's hilariously unreasonable to say that the contract Heffe brought up applies to anyone that hasn't seen it already, but it's reasonable to assume what Valve's stance certainly was on the matter, with the game Heffe's not yet mentioned.

But all of this is hypothetical. xD

We can't-- or at least, shouldn't-- jump around making conclusions on something only Valve can step up and answer. We can assume Valve's stance, but we can't act on assumptions. Until Valve puts it down in public here, or on the server, it's a moot point.

So here's a better question: what should Valve's policy be on the matter? We're hardly decision-makers, but putting our own two cents down will show where we stand on the matter.

Personally, I think it depends on how Valve decides to handle strings they don't want public-- whether they want to get those strings translated before the related updates go live, or not.

NINJA EDIT: OH HELLO HACHACH DIDN'T SEE YOU THERE >>;;

Lots of musing aloud here, but here goes:

Fair point with solitary Moderators. There wouldn't be too many ways to handle that, with the suggestion as it is-- if it's a major update, with no small amount of strings, only a partial translation would be available, which'd be both difficult and awkward, approval system taken into account. If there's any other translator on your language team, though, you could recommend them to your friendly neighborhood admin. It's a ham-handed suggestion, I know... xD;

[heffebaycay]

And so it shall remain until Valve states otherwise.

@heffebaycay: Case in point-- Valve hasn't added that to the FAQ. It's a good place to put that kind of information, and it's a safe bet that that'll be the place where we get an answer to this question if Torsten & Co. decide not to answer us here on the forums.


STS Faq has been updated:

Q: Does Steam Translation have any confidentiality rules?
While there are no confidentiality rules or Non Disclosure Agreements (NDA) for Steam Translation, please be considerate in not spoiling or leaking potentially critical information or strings.
If you feel the nagging urge to leak and spoil, we are here to help and can always mediate your nag: CanILeakThis?@valvesoftware.com (translationserver@valvesoftware.com).

Guess we were right after all to consider leaking stuff as a bad thing to do. :)