Feel sorry for the Xbox kids.

[Sintesi]

It was inevitable after all.

Was watching the 20 minute E3 demo and, as amazing as it is, there are some serious serious frame rate issues with this game. I mean, this was a major presentation from multi-million dollar Bethesda putting their best face forward and the vid was sputtering and stammering whenever the character merely tried to run let alone engage in combat.

Now that's it's been realized, I"m betting demand for this type of scope and detail in a game is going to simply overwhelm the remarkably resilient yet stale console architecture we're accustomed to. We've railed against and rationalized about this issue in the past but developers via creative coding and optimization had always managed to come up with some fairly stunning solutions. Kudos to them but the end is nigh, I think this is the game that is finally going to be too big for that little box.

[Pixel Knight]

I must have watched a different video then. The one I saw looked pretty smooth.

[breadmeatbread]

I'm going to be honest.. this is going to start an inevitable console war.

(Let me start with yes, I can see the stuttering from the very beginning of that 3 part demo, I don't see how anyone would miss it)


The PS3 and 360 are out of date, plain and simple. The hardware is going on 7 years old now (it was dated post-production) for the PS3. The game doesn't look good to me on either system. When I watch my brother play Fallout: New Vegas on Playstation 3 I get a guilty feeling like I ripped him off when I sold it to him for $250 with 5 games.. The resolution is poor and the game stutters like non-other.

But, if this is all you are ever used to seeing then it probably won't bother you. New Vegas on the Playstation is in 1024x600 resolution, and it becomes painfully obvious when you play it at 1920x1080 on a PC.

I would feel sorry for people still using consoles in the year 2011, but honestly you just make me mad. It's not completely your fault, but if people stopped buying consoles and started building computers it would help the advancement of technology as a whole. For the last 5 years developers have been releasing games on dated hardware, imagine what Skyrim could look like if it were developed for PC only..

Technological advancement grinds to a halt with the birth of every "next generation" console that inevitably dates itself and developers.

There is no doubt in my mind the game will be poor overall for the console versions, but to someone who has never played on a $600-1200 computer it's going to look spectacular.

The view distance is bad, the framerate is bad, the resolution is bad, and consoles have no anti-aliasing. Like I said, I almost feel sorry for consolers.

[Vasir]

I'm going to be honest.. this is going to start an inevitable console war.

(Let me start with yes, I can see the stuttering from the very beginning of that 3 part demo, I don't see how anyone would miss it)


The PS3 and 360 are out of date, plain and simple. The hardware is going on 7 years old now (it was dated post-production) for the PS3. The game doesn't look good to me on either system. When I watch my brother play Fallout: New Vegas on Playstation 3 I get a guilty feeling like I ripped him off when I sold it to him for $250 with 5 games.. The resolution is poor and the game stutters like non-other.

But, if this is all you are ever used to seeing then it probably won't bother you. New Vegas on the Playstation is in 1024x600 resolution, and it becomes painfully obvious when you play it at 1920x1080 on a PC.

I would feel sorry for people still using consoles in the year 2011, but honestly you just make me mad. It's not completely your fault, but if people stopped buying consoles and started building computers it would help the advancement of technology as a whole. For the last 5 years developers have been releasing games on dated hardware, imagine what Skyrim could look like if it were developed for PC only..

Technological advancement grinds to a halt with the birth of every "next generation" console that inevitably dates itself and developers.

There is no doubt in my mind the game will be poor overall for the console versions, but to someone who has never played on a $600-1200 computer it's going to look spectacular.

The view distance is bad, the framerate is bad, the resolution is bad, and consoles have no anti-aliasing. Like I said, I almost feel sorry for consolers.

I know not everyone will upgrade their computer every time AMD or whoeever release new hardware. The number of players who DO - the players interested in a specific game would mean not good sales for the company.
Which is where optimization and efficiency comes in. You can make a good game on hardware even a few years old, but seriously? Do you really think they need to make games on only the most state of the art hardware? Wow.

[flarp]

When I watch my brother play Fallout: New Vegas on Playstation 3 I get a guilty feeling like I ripped him off when I sold it to him for $250 with 5 games..

The thing i would like to know is, why you would sell your stuff to your OWN brother?

I've given my brother a 360 and a my old gaming PC for free. I dont think i've ever once taken money from him.

[geronimo789]

You have to keep in mind that back when the 360 came out the ati X1k and nvidia 7k series were spanking new hot stuff. Back then that 360 spanked all but the most expensive PC systems silly. They just follow a step by step release instead of continuous evolution. It's the draw of consoles after all. To play your games without much issues for a couple years.
Same thing goes for macs for example. Compared to a continuously evolving platform it will decline in value more and more until the next bump upwards.

Anyway, i'm fairly sure this thread will start some flamewar :)
*grabs popcorn*

[MrSchpagge]

. When I watch my brother play Fallout: New Vegas on Playstation 3 I get a guilty feeling like I ripped him off when I sold it to him for $250 with 5 games.. The resolution is poor and the game stutters like non-other.

A bit off topic, but before I built my own rig I had a PS3 and thought the graphics were amazing, and even after a few months away from consoles I didn't think the difference was that drastic...then I watched my buddy play New Vegas on his PS3. :(

[rtv05]

It was inevitable after all.

Was watching the 20 minute E3 demo and, as amazing as it is, there are some serious serious frame rate issues with this game. I mean, this was a major presentation from multi-million dollar Bethesda putting their best face forward and the vid was sputtering and stammering whenever the character merely tried to run let alone engage in combat.

Now that's it's been realized, I"m betting demand for this type of scope and detail in a game is going to simply overwhelm the remarkably resilient yet stale console architecture we're accustomed to. We've railed against and rationalized about this issue in the past but developers via creative coding and optimization had always managed to come up with some fairly stunning solutions. Kudos to them but the end is nigh, I think this is the game that is finally going to be too big for that little box.

:facepalm:
The Game is not done, which means its not DONE...

[Peckpogydah]

But, if this is all you are ever used to seeing then it probably won't bother you. New Vegas on the Playstation is in 1024x600 resolution, and it becomes painfully obvious when you play it at 1920x1080 on a PC.


Are you sure about that? I own FO:NV on PC, but my friend has it on his 360, when he changed it from 1360x768 to 1080p the is a huge difference in quailty, lag also increases as well. Thats the same for alot of games, Star Ocean is a lag fest @ 1080i but when I set my xbox to 1360x768 its practicly lag free, doesn't look as sharp and detailed aswell. Heck, there is a difference from 720p to 1360x768, even though its only 48 more lines.

The only games I have on my xbox are ones that arnt ported over to PC, ones that say 1080p on back look better when I set it to 1080i but ones that only have 720p there isnt a difference from 1360x768 to 1080i.

[Peckpogydah]

A bit off topic, but before I built my own rig I had a PS3 and thought the graphics were amazing, and even after a few months away from consoles I didn't think the difference was that drastic...then I watched my buddy play New Vegas on his PS3. :(

Lol, ya when I saw CoD4 on my buddy's 360, I asked him whats wrong with his TV. It blew my mind there was that much of a difference.

[benhen]

Yes, let's judge the quality of a game's performance before it's released, it's not like they'd be streamlining and perfecting such in the coming months. Oh wait, they will be. Regardless, the game will still be impressive on an Xbox as we're not all concerned with graphics as rabidly as others seem to be, and I prefer the Xbox for a majority of my gaming, anyway.

[Sintesi]

Yes, let's judge the quality of a game's performance before it's released, it's not like they'd be streamlining and perfecting such in the coming months. Oh wait, they will be. Regardless, the game will still be impressive on an Xbox as we're not all concerned with graphics as rabidly as others seem to be, and I prefer the Xbox for a majority of my gaming, anyway.

True they might get it together, but then again they might not. Here's the thing, games have always increased their complexity and scale and eventually a new console will come to supersede the xbox 360 -- it is going to happen and we're now 6 years out from Xbox 360 release so it's going to happen soon. If not the industry gets stagnant and people get gypped. And yes I understand many don't care about graphics, in fact there are still a lot of people still playing xbox and ps2. Your attitude is in good company, Never the less, something tells me most people are going to demand better and more for their $$$.

I guess I shouldn't have said, "I feel sorry for ..." because that just makes certain people instantly defensive and to be honest it's not a factual statement. I don't feel sorry for anyone. They'll just have to buy a new Xbox when Microsoft finally kicks out a new model. No big deal. But I think everyone has to admit, in order for this industry to progress developers should be concentrating their talent into translating new amazing ideas into deeper, better games (and yes better looking games), instead they're spending those resources trying to figure out how to make their games work on outdated components. As i stated in my original post, to their credit, they've done a pretty good job so far but the cracks are showing and they aren't ♥♥♥♥ing magicians- there are limits.

Should the software drive the hardware forward? Yes I think so. So let it be done. I hope Skyrim is a title that breaks the xbox 360 as a viable platform. It's necessary.

[m_bisson]

Nooo not yet. I still have some fun 360 games

[geronimo789]

Are you sure about that? I own FO:NV on PC, but my friend has it on his 360, when he changed it from 1360x768 to 1080p the is a huge difference in quailty, lag also increases as well. Thats the same for alot of games, Star Ocean is a lag fest @ 1080i but when I set my xbox to 1360x768 its practicly lag free, doesn't look as sharp and detailed aswell. Heck, there is a difference from 720p to 1360x768, even though its only 48 more lines.

The only games I have on my xbox are ones that arnt ported over to PC, ones that say 1080p on back look better when I set it to 1080i but ones that only have 720p there isnt a difference from 1360x768 to 1080i.

Higher resolution = more room for detail, more work for the graphics card. Always and without exception.

The consoles don't render at 1080p however. (a very slight minority of games *might*)
They usually render at somewhere around 720p and upscale it (which is not good and very noticeable compared to a true 1080p render). The xbox often does some anti aliasing which might help a little bit. The 'full hd' of recent consoles are just a marketing fad. It's like saying you're having studio quality sound because you connected your iPod to an amplifier and speakers ...

[Merranvo]

But I think everyone has to admit, in order for this industry to progress developers should be concentrating their talent into translating new amazing ideas into deeper, better games
Yes

(and yes better looking games)
No

, instead they're spending those resources trying to figure out how to make their games work on outdated components.
Undoubtedly wrong.



Console games usually have smoother development than PC games simply because the hardware is fixed and the standards of expectation are known. Now, they aren't forcing "heavier graphics" on old technology; they're using new graphical techniques that utilize less resources to create the same ( or similar ) graphical experience on old technology.

In other words; by forcing developers to use "old hardware technology," they improve the current software technology being used. Pixel shaders reduce the number of polys a model needs to achieve a specific level of detail; by recognizing one bottleneck, we create and use effects that even affect "highend rigs".


What you also ignore is the cost of all these affects. Levels are shrinking due to the amount of work it takes to add all these shader maps to every object, the work to optimize the system (instead of doing what you seem to want, being using "having a powerful rig" as an excuse for having bad coding) to streamline the experience... what money remains for gameplay?


What's worse is that people want to SEE all the effects in a game, so things like bullet physics get over exaggerated and suddenly games start trying to showcase their "effects" rather than the gameplay. You see this high powered rifle, you need to aim 1 foot up at the target 50 meters away, nevermind that the bullet would be going silly slow... it's "more real".


If companies didn't have to be so concerned about how a game looks (and trying to maximize sales due to incurred costs ) they could start appealing to niche markets and gameplay could branch out, and be a little different.

[breadmeatbread]

The thing i would like to know is, why you would sell your stuff to your OWN brother?

I've given my brother a 360 and a my old gaming PC for free. I dont think i've ever once taken money from him.

... You're asking the wrong question. It should be "why is my brother such a mooch?"

First of all, both my brother and I have full time jobs. We know the value of a dollar. I had the Playstation on craigslist and he happened to be in my dorm when I got a call on it. So he offered to buy it.

Secondly, he's older than me, this isn't a hand me down situation.

I bought that system with my own money, and it was about 5 months old when I sold it to him with 5 games (3 of which were new releases)

He wouldn't have let me give it to him, he's not a mooch.

[Thaifun]

I watched the video too, and I didn't noticed any serious framerate issues (getting it for PC btw.)

[scorpio0666]

I'm going to be honest.. this is going to start an inevitable console war.

(Let me start with yes, I can see the stuttering from the very beginning of that 3 part demo, I don't see how anyone would miss it)


The PS3 and 360 are out of date, plain and simple. The hardware is going on 7 years old now (it was dated post-production) for the PS3. The game doesn't look good to me on either system. When I watch my brother play Fallout: New Vegas on Playstation 3 I get a guilty feeling like I ripped him off when I sold it to him for $250 with 5 games.. The resolution is poor and the game stutters like non-other.

But, if this is all you are ever used to seeing then it probably won't bother you. New Vegas on the Playstation is in 1024x600 resolution, and it becomes painfully obvious when you play it at 1920x1080 on a PC.

I would feel sorry for people still using consoles in the year 2011, but honestly you just make me mad. It's not completely your fault, but if people stopped buying consoles and started building computers it would help the advancement of technology as a whole. For the last 5 years developers have been releasing games on dated hardware, imagine what Skyrim could look like if it were developed for PC only..

Technological advancement grinds to a halt with the birth of every "next generation" console that inevitably dates itself and developers.

There is no doubt in my mind the game will be poor overall for the console versions, but to someone who has never played on a $600-1200 computer it's going to look spectacular.

The view distance is bad, the framerate is bad, the resolution is bad, and consoles have no anti-aliasing. Like I said, I almost feel sorry for consolers.

Agree 100%.

[Psychological]

Are you sure about that? I own FO:NV on PC, but my friend has it on his 360, when he changed it from 1360x768 to 1080p the is a huge difference in quailty, lag also increases as well. Thats the same for alot of games, Star Ocean is a lag fest @ 1080i but when I set my xbox to 1360x768 its practicly lag free, doesn't look as sharp and detailed aswell. Heck, there is a difference from 720p to 1360x768, even though its only 48 more lines.

The only games I have on my xbox are ones that arnt ported over to PC, ones that say 1080p on back look better when I set it to 1080i but ones that only have 720p there isnt a difference from 1360x768 to 1080i.

Whoa, are you saying that when you changed your graphics settings that things CHANGED!? Freakin' unbelievable. I've never noticed that, we really need to start documenting this ♥♥♥♥.

All sarcasm aside, The consoles are 7 years old now, they're outdated, Period. Skyrim can go two ways, it can be incredibly optimized to run like butter on a xbox or it'll have extremely good graphics and will run like butter IN an xbox.

Besides, who the hell plays TES on a console?

[This_Guy]

I'm going to be honest.. this is going to start an inevitable console war.

(Let me start with yes, I can see the stuttering from the very beginning of that 3 part demo, I don't see how anyone would miss it)


The PS3 and 360 are out of date, plain and simple. The hardware is going on 7 years old now (it was dated post-production) for the PS3. The game doesn't look good to me on either system. When I watch my brother play Fallout: New Vegas on Playstation 3 I get a guilty feeling like I ripped him off when I sold it to him for $250 with 5 games.. The resolution is poor and the game stutters like non-other.

But, if this is all you are ever used to seeing then it probably won't bother you. New Vegas on the Playstation is in 1024x600 resolution, and it becomes painfully obvious when you play it at 1920x1080 on a PC.

I would feel sorry for people still using consoles in the year 2011, but honestly you just make me mad. It's not completely your fault, but if people stopped buying consoles and started building computers it would help the advancement of technology as a whole. For the last 5 years developers have been releasing games on dated hardware, imagine what Skyrim could look like if it were developed for PC only..

Technological advancement grinds to a halt with the birth of every "next generation" console that inevitably dates itself and developers.

There is no doubt in my mind the game will be poor overall for the console versions, but to someone who has never played on a $600-1200 computer it's going to look spectacular.

The view distance is bad, the framerate is bad, the resolution is bad, and consoles have no anti-aliasing. Like I said, I almost feel sorry for consolers.

I had to give you rep because everything you said was so true. It was like I was reading my own words. You can't waste your time feeling sorry for console-only players. If they had any sense, they wouldn't be console players. Truth be told I hate them. They are the biggest hypocrites around. They don't recognize the Wii as a legitimate console because it only runs games in 480, and claim their games look amazing in not-quite-720p. Then when you make the point that your PC games running at 1080 or even 1200 look much better than their sub-720 console counterparts, they tell you the difference is only noticeable if you are a PC nerd and that games aren't all about graphics anyways.

[El Magic Diablo]

I had to give you rep because everything you said was so true. It was like I was reading my own words. You can't waste your time feeling sorry for console-only players. If they had any sense, they wouldn't be console players. Truth be told I hate them. They are the biggest hypocrites around. They don't recognize the Wii as a legitimate console because it only runs games in 480, and claim their games look amazing in not-quite-720p. Then when you make the point that your PC games running at 1080 or even 1200 look much better than their sub-720 console counterparts, they tell you the difference is only noticeable if you are a PC nerd and that games aren't all about graphics anyways.

And in the meantime the Wii has already made more than enough money because they weren't sold at a loss. Nintendo could dump the platform today because they made their money back years ago.

[Peckpogydah]

Whoa, are you saying that when you changed your graphics settings that things CHANGED!? Freakin' unbelievable. I've never noticed that, we really need to start documenting this ♥♥♥♥.

I was trying to show that the Xbox doesn't just upscale, it auctly runs @ 1080p.



Besides, who the hell plays TES on a console?

Before HTPC's came about I know plenty of PC gamers who would love to kick back on a couch and play games on a huge TV. Especally when Morrowind came out, back then the avg monitor was 19inch CRT and what wireless KB+M did exist were full of bugs or died after 3hours of use.

[Xirvus.rei]

What's even sad is that all the children with XBoxes and PS3s don't realise that their hardware is ancient, and they still think that they're "powerful". I'm not even kidding. It's just sad. You hear quotes about developers "unlocking" the potential of their consoles.
Pfft. More like making compromises, and working around limitations. But whatever.

[Psychological]

I was trying to show that the Xbox doesn't just upscale, it auctly runs @ 1080p.

Yeah, horribly... I thought we had established this already?


Before HTPC's came about I know plenty of PC gamers who would love to kick back on a couch and play games on a huge TV. Especally when Morrowind came out, back then the avg monitor was 19inch CRT and what wireless KB+M did exist were full of bugs or died after 3hours of use.

Ah yes, back in the good OLD days, but now that I've actually got a 20 foot wide wall mounted T.V. hooked up to my computer, and a keyboard and mouse that only ever seem to fail on me when I'm drunk, I ask again...

Who would every play TES on a console?

[Soulsmith]

tv: free from brother
xbox: second hand, £100

compared to a PC gaming rig pushing £1000?

I think I can live with slightly worse graphics thanks.

PS New Vegas is a bad example, many stutters and lag can be due to the horrendous amount of bugs inundating the game. My pc version was near unplayable, on xbox its great.

[UOGSammich]

What's even sad is that all the children with XBoxes and PS3s don't realise that their hardware is ancient, and they still think that they're "powerful". I'm not even kidding. It's just sad. You hear quotes about developers "unlocking" the potential of their consoles.
Pfft. More like making compromises, and working around limitations. But whatever.

The art of unlocking 512mb of ram... lololol

I was trying to show that the Xbox doesn't just upscale, it auctly runs @ 1080p.

Right.. right.. for what, 3 games? The PlayStation does that as well.. but 99% of the games are upscaled and look bad.

PS New Vegas is a bad example, many stutters and lag can be due to the horrendous amount of bugs inundating the game. My pc version was near unplayable, on xbox its great.

Sounds like a personal hardware problem, (the inability to troubleshoot this explains why you have a console) NV runs fine on my computer.

[Syynx]

I feel sorry for the console owners because they won't be able to mod this game, that alone is gonna make pc skyrim 1000x better then console, we'll be able to fix Bethesda's inevitable mistakes.

[lt bob]

The thing i would like to know is, why you would sell your stuff to your OWN brother?

Thats what i would like to know...

I've given my brother my old PC i7 920 6gb ddr3 5970 etc for free.

You should feel guilty!