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ND_OHNOES
10-01-2011, 12:37 AM
At first I was terrible in multiplayer, bad linking skills and poor unit combinations. I was 2-11 :( and getting crushed. Then this guy told me elites suck and I should always go single or double champion. I went 15-0…To be fair my linking also got better and I had a better core unit setup. In those 15 games my lowest health was 46.

So here’s a list of possibilities (not necessarily all three)
- Require 1 elite unit
- Reduce number of champions from 5 or 3 to 2 unit spawns
- Reduce damage of champions

Anyone else feel champions are overpowered?
Other certain things need to nerfed too *cough Academy walls and certain hero abilities (spiders, palms, etc

Meowthemouse
10-01-2011, 06:15 AM
Did you ever eat Champion fusion? Now THAT is over powered.

TFJ
10-01-2011, 08:04 AM
Yes, I do agree that champions in general are OP. They just do too much damage in relation to the work you need to setup them (it's not hard at all) and some have crazy good special abilities. Some that certainly stand out are the PitFiend (5 turn, 115 power and and amazing special), Death Knight(start with a ridiculous amount of attack and weakens the opponents formations simultaneosly) and Angels (whoever faced 2 charging angels know what I'm talking about).

Besides, when an opponent charges a champion, you immediately need to go into defense mode and start piling up some walls. This gives the opponent the initiave and plenty of opportunities to link them, which gives champions ridiculous bonus attack and make your defenses almost useless.

Couple this with the direct damage of some heroes, it's very easy to get one shotted. Because what happens is that the champion attack clears your board and immediately fills his gauge, allowing him to cast his spell immediately for full damage.

Most games become a race to charge your champion first while negating the opponents :/. Of course that there are some situations where going elites really shine, but still...

I personally feel that champion attacks should be reduced to the 60-70 attack range and walls nerfed slighty to compensate (by 2 points maybe). That would also make core units more of a threat, because as of right now you can ignore their attacks most of the time.

I know that's never happening and I would personally change a LOT of more stuff balance wise (artifacts specially), so maybe that's for the better. But those are just my thoughts :).

Verminix
10-01-2011, 10:27 AM
I don't think champions are overpowered per se. I have 2 issues.

My first complaint is with the length of the burning embers that the Pit Lord leaves behind after he attacks. Why does the green Dragon's poison only remain on the field for 1 turn (2 with the artifact) when the Pit Lord's embers remain on the field for what feels like forever (I think it's 3 turns sans artifact). He's already super strong, and coupled with Aiden's ability, very difficult to beat.

My second complaint has already been mentioned. Fusing is hopelessly overpowered. I think I have won about 1% of games where the opponent fuses his champion. I think the bonus dmg should be reduced heavily. Perhaps 50%?

I think reducing the strength of the champions would be a big mistake. I like my games short, and reducing the damage would mean you would have to put together several successful runs to kill a player. That would mean 40 minute-hour long games, every time. No thank you.

ND_OHNOES
10-01-2011, 03:47 PM
Fusing champions is a rare occurrence. I have no problem with it being an automatic GG.

Yeah Pitlord's power lasting effect takes too long.

Anyone in the top 30 use elites at all?

Verminix
10-01-2011, 06:13 PM
I'm ranked 10th on PSN and I use them.

Green's Deer with antlers are great.
Red's Sorcerer is great.
White's priestesses with the staff are great for countering spider cloak.
Undead's ghost is very good, counters almost every elite.
Yellow's mage with the fusing orb can pack a serious punch although I don't use them.

I think it comes down to play style. Most elites are for countering champions. You're just bashing your head against a brick wall if you don't take advantage of their abilities. Like when people use knights and choose to attack with them instead of waiting and countering, same with ghosts. It's easy to lose the value of their abilities and turn them into basically medium strength core units.

At the end of the day, and for the most part, they are a support class and need to be played as such. Their true value, imo, is linking them with champions. That stuff can give you crazy bonus dmg for your champion.

Capy_Nathan
10-02-2011, 08:52 AM
Having played thousands of battles, and seen tens of thousands played, I am very confident that champions are not overpowered. Are they strong? of course! but each of them has a counter-strat. Death Knights certainly do.

Sometimes that strat is simply to wall up. Sometimes its sacrificing your own champ as a defence. Sometimes it's saving your Hero Spell to use against charging champs. Often it's simply to kill or distract before they even get formed.

If you have a strategy, and execute it perfectly, you will win. If you have a strategy, and part way through you see a champion coming, if you don't adjust, you will lose.

Grimfaire
10-04-2011, 09:20 PM
I don't think champions are overpowered per se. I have 2 issues.

My first complaint is with the length of the burning embers that the Pit Lord leaves behind after he attacks. Why does the green Dragon's poison only remain on the field for 1 turn (2 with the artifact) when the Pit Lord's embers remain on the field for what feels like forever (I think it's 3 turns sans artifact). He's already super strong, and coupled with Aiden's ability, very difficult to beat.

Pit Lords embers stay longer because they just occupy space on your battlefield unlike Dragon Goo which damages units placed above it and secondly the embers can be deleted ;)

wearedevo
10-06-2011, 08:15 PM
Pit Lords embers stay longer because they just occupy space on your battlefield unlike Dragon Goo which damages units placed above it and secondly the embers can be deleted ;)

You'd be surprised how few people know this! Makes me feel sorry for them when I see them struggling with all the embers I've left behind. Just delete 'em!

wearedevo
10-06-2011, 11:00 PM
Did you ever eat Champion fusion? Now THAT is over powered.

I killed a multi-fused angel with chain druids in one game. That's gotta hurt. The timer on it was up to 13 at one stage :/

cabl3
10-07-2011, 06:35 AM
At first I was terrible in multiplayer, bad linking skills and poor unit combinations. I was 2-11 :( and getting crushed. Then this guy told me elites suck and I should always go single or double champion. I went 15-0…To be fair my linking also got better and I had a better core unit setup. In those 15 games my lowest health was 46.

So here’s a list of possibilities (not necessarily all three)
- Require 1 elite unit
- Reduce number of champions from 5 or 3 to 2 unit spawns
- Reduce damage of champions

Anyone else feel champions are overpowered?
Other certain things need to nerfed too *cough Academy walls and certain hero abilities (spiders, palms, etc


Whoever told you elites suck really limited the scope of the game for you. Not only do elites NOT suck, but I can go into a battle with multiple different strategies using ONLY elites.

Anwen with deers + artifact (or deer + unicorns). Fuse one deer and if you hit you'll be really close to your spell. HUGE damage.

Any Sheogh hero + Nightmares with Thorn Whip. Have you ever seen 4 Nightmares attacking seperate lanes for full power at the same time? It can be devastating.

Don't even get me started on the amazing succubus artifact. And lets not forget Mages with the Transform Gem.

Edit: Credentials: I've played hundreds of matches on xbox live, both online and offline (me and my brother are obsessed with this game and finding new viable strategies). Also, I'm pretty sure nobody I've faced on the PC Version yet is up to par with me. Yes, that is a challenge. Bring it.

ND_OHNOES
10-07-2011, 11:58 AM
Whoever told you elites suck really limited the scope of the game for you. Not only do elites NOT suck, but I can go into a battle with multiple different strategies using ONLY elites.

Anwen with deers + artifact (or deer + unicorns). Fuse one deer and if you hit you'll be really close to your spell. HUGE damage.

Any Sheogh hero + Nightmares with Thorn Whip. Have you ever seen 4 Nightmares attacking seperate lanes for full power at the same time? It can be devastating.

Don't even get me started on the amazing succubus artifact. And lets not forget Mages with the Transform Gem.

Edit: Credentials: I've played hundreds of matches on xbox live, both online and offline (me and my brother are obsessed with this game and finding new viable strategies). Also, I'm pretty sure nobody I've faced on the PC Version yet is up to par with me. Yes, that is a challenge. Bring it.

I use the deer and sorcerer now. I'm trying every hero and experimenting with different units. The advice that was given to me was a good morale boost and a decent starting strategy foundation.

But you have to understand that most PC games I see and play don't use artifacts which I suppose limits the damage of elites.
My adviser and friend are in the top 20 and don't use elites, but I like the variety of using elites now.

Wingflier
10-12-2011, 09:01 AM
I think the main problem is not that Champions are overpowered, or that Elites are underpowered, it's just that in the PVP Scenario we're given (typically known as "Blind Pick" by competitive players), Champions are a much safer bet. Whether or not Champions are more powerful than Elites is up for debate, but they are definitely easier to use. It's not hard to charge a champion early, then just spam walls until it's done; rinse and repeat til you win the game. It is hard however, to create the chains and combos necessary with Elites to either stall or destroy the Champion before it can attack, or to kill your opponent in time.

In addition, specific Elites are needed to counter certain Champions. If you knew what Champions your opponent would pick beforehand, then Elites would be much more viable, because you can pick the exact Elite(s) you need to win. Unfortunately, there is a large element of "luck" in the picking phase, and the safe bet is usually to take a Champion since they are usually the ones needing a specific counter, not Elites.

Basically if you added a game option that would allow players to see what each other are picking and change accordingly (with a time limit of course), I think Elites would become a lot more viable. Until then, it is generally more logical to have Champions in your squad.

dustofdust
10-12-2011, 09:59 AM
I think the main problem is not that Champions are overpowered, or that Elites are underpowered, it's just that in the PVP Scenario we're given (typically known as "Blind Pick" by competitive players), Champions are a much safer bet. Whether or not Champions are more powerful than Elites is up for debate, but they are definitely easier to use. It's not hard to charge a champion early, then just spam walls until it's done; rinse and repeat til you win the game. It is hard however, to create the chains and combos necessary with Elites to either stall or destroy the Champion before it can attack, or to kill your opponent in time.

In addition, specific Elites are needed to counter certain Champions. If you knew what Champions your opponent would pick beforehand, then Elites would be much more viable, because you can pick the exact Elite(s) you need to win. Unfortunately, there is a large element of "luck" in the picking phase, and the safe bet is usually to take a Champion since they are usually the ones needing a specific counter, not Elites.

Basically if you added a game option that would allow players to see what each other are picking and change accordingly (with a time limit of course), I think Elites would become a lot more viable. Until then, it is generally more logical to have Champions in your squad.

Very true. However, maybe elites like knight, succubus and ghost are quite independent, and not really risky bet. Deer are on a whole different story though.

fiddler6
10-13-2011, 09:45 AM
I've really found this whole discussion interesting. I don't often pick my squad based on what my opponent is using, I tend to just pick my favourite units. Having been Lead QA for Capy throughout our run of Clash of Heroes games I think I've played enough matches to say that there is no strategy that can't be overcome. Really it comes down to what hero your opponent picks (which you can see before you confirm your choice). This allows you to pick units you think might be useful or to get a general strategy of what most players pick. You will very rarely find that your opponent's strategy is catered specifically to besting you so you can examine your opponent's strategy from the start of the match and adjust accordingly while still using your favoured units!

Rik!
10-13-2011, 07:04 PM
I played with someguy today ... I fused two angels so I was like " ok, I almost won this game"!

He was playing aidan, but not with champions, only with elites... He dropped a sorcerer in front of my double angel and desactivated it ... TWICE !!!Tried to wall up but, not enough... Sorcerers are pretty strong ! Then he finished the job with fused succubus ... so I guess that champions are not so over powered...

TFJ
10-14-2011, 07:28 AM
Sorcerers are the most useful elite in the current metagame because they hard counter champions. But you are still kinda gambling because walls can deter them and they are rarer than your standard elite. You just have to antecipate where and when your opponent is going to charge his sorcerer. You can also try to fake your champion charge and change his position later (I did it once, but a good player won't fall for it).

Anyway, in your specific case, I would suggest charging those angels separatedly. They would heal each other and your opponent would need 2 sorceres to counter.