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lambda00
10-28-2011, 04:37 AM
I must say I played this game, got all achievements and had nice fun with it. Humor is also great most of the time, but...

Seriously, 6 milion people from Poland and many of other contries have died during World War II, and the description you give to "Polish remover" is "Hitler"?
That is not funny. This is, to say the least, faux pas.

And yes, I am from Poland.

Soul_Harvester
10-28-2011, 04:52 AM
Might be too soon for irony on that one.

Garlyle
10-28-2011, 06:41 AM
I, meanwhile, am laughing.

Even if it makes me seem like a terrible person, I'm laughing.

Vixx
10-28-2011, 06:45 AM
Remember, comedy = tragedy + time.

Middlekick
10-28-2011, 07:13 AM
Way to start a crappy thread, being a jerk about something no one cares about.

I mean, i would hate the game to get censored (socially obliged to change that description) because someone cannot coexist with 2 or 3 words of something close to black humor.

"My brother is a drug-addict and steals wallets to buy drugs, therefore i find it totally awful to hear a joke about it in the first dialog of your game. Do something about it."

Soul_Harvester
10-28-2011, 07:27 AM
Relax, ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥s. All the guy said was that the joke is offensive to him, as a Polish guy, and pointed out it was a faux pas. No demands were made, no "do something about it," just informed the devs of a culturally sensitive situation.

He can either change the line, or not. There's no need to go around loudly demonstrating your ignorance of the effects of attempted genocide.

SSoundscape
10-28-2011, 07:30 AM
I cannot hate this thread any more than I already do

Middlekick
10-28-2011, 08:12 AM
It's not about genocide or drug-addiction, it's about the nature of the thread.

Take the "do something about it" out of that and see if it actually changes it's intention. The same happens to the first post.

Actually, i don't wanna keep this thread up, just needed to give this answer XD

See ya

Soul_Harvester
10-28-2011, 08:15 AM
Great story, man.

MithranArkanere
10-28-2011, 09:37 AM
I laughed at that one.

The best way to remove the power of fear is laughing at it.

Yeah, a lot of people died because a bunch of idiots lead by another idiot followed some idiotic ideas and make a lot of idiotic things. But it's all in the past now. And it's better to joke about it than forget it.
People don't like to talk about sad things.
If making jokes about those things helps keeping them in our mids, that's actually something good.
Forgetting about our mistakes would be way more dangerous.


Humor has always treated serious matters in a irreverent way, to keep the truth there.
That also includes black humor.

Watching Monty Python's: "The Meaning of Life" should help you understand what I mean.

Soul_Harvester
10-28-2011, 10:03 AM
I can appreciate that position, and I'm in agreement personally, but at the same time I'm glad the OP spoke up about this.

"A lot of people died in the past due to idiots" is only something you can say if it wasn't you, if it didn't affect you. It's much, much harder to find the comedy in "my entire family, all of them, were killed by ♥♥♥♥♥ so I've been an orphan my entire life." That just...isn't funny, and you can't insist someone see the joke in that. It's real for a lot of people, but just because it ISN'T real for us doesn't mean it should stop being real for them.

That said, I wouldn't say take it out of the game. I'm sure people laughed like I did, in a grim way, being not Polish and being a fan of bleak humour. If you're going to drop those kind of jokes, though, especially in the spirit of "helping keep them in our minds," you also have to expect people to say they didn't find it funny, and it punctured their experience with exactly how funny it wasn't.

Those people should be shown some respect, even if you (perfectly reasonably, in my view) don't remove the offending content. Otherwise all you're doing is dismissing someone's pain because you like to mock tragedy that doesn't befall you. Black humour only works if while you're laughing on one hand, you're feeling the pain of the tragedy on the other. If you're not doing both, you're mocking the death of someone's entire family, the permanent scarring their entire culture, for a cheap giggle.

There's a thin line between laughing at death and laughing at someone who died.

Soul_Harvester
10-28-2011, 10:04 AM
For a perfect example of trying to bury the past, note the censorship of my referral, completely in context, to the National Socialist party above. -_-

I guess the Steam forums are of the view that games aren't the place for mature discussion of historical tragedy, and maybe they're right.

lambda00
10-28-2011, 10:19 AM
Of course those jokes are funny for people not directly involved. But telling those kind of dark humor jokes one has to be really careful with the audience of that joke, not to hurt anyone.

If you put it in a computer game, anyone can read that and that is bad. It is all I wanted to say.

I am happy that at least some of you understood that correctly.

MithranArkanere
10-28-2011, 10:23 AM
I don't see that.

We in Spain we had a silly little man called Franco killing people too for some years.

He died, and now we don't have a silly little man killing people. And the only people that is won't laugh at the silly little man is the people that was in their side.

It's all in the past. We should be happy it's no longer that way.

SSoundscape
10-28-2011, 10:26 AM
I cannot come up with words in the English language in order to express how unnecessary this thread is.


I mean, I heard that showers relieve stress. Some of you who were offended should go take one ;D

Soul_Harvester
10-28-2011, 11:07 AM
It baffles me that there are adults here, capable of typing and reading, who are seemingly seriously saying "guys just chill out and forget about it" ...about the holocaust. :| Not abstractly, either, but like...people who were directly affected by it, should just get over it.

Saneo
10-28-2011, 11:15 AM
Honestly I laughed my ♥♥♥♥ off at that one, that's a damn witty joke. Would be a huge shame to change that.

IridiumStudios
10-28-2011, 11:45 AM
I want to say that I apologize if I offended anyone. I myself am of Jewish descent, so I can understand that pain.

In the end, we thought that the joke was worth it, because it's totally hilarious. What can you do but laugh? We're well past those dark times, and we'll already remember the tragedy, but sometimes, making people smile is the best way to move on.

lambda00
10-28-2011, 01:03 PM
To be honest I also think it is funny, looking from a side.

I can see you're a nice guy Iridium Studios and you did not try to provoke anyone with this joke.

BTW: do you know why Jews did not take part in world war 2?
Because they were on a camp...

(For those who don;t understand: see concentration camp)


Just kidding, now hard feelings

IridiumStudios
10-28-2011, 01:04 PM
Oh snap
I laughed

SSoundscape
10-28-2011, 01:19 PM
I guess we can all be happy now and dance into the night in celebration.



Oh ho ho ho ho ho!

Luxray
10-29-2011, 01:20 AM
This item description was the reason for me to take my first ever Steam screenshot. As soon as I got the polish remover item, I knew something like this was coming.

Oh, the hilarity. Nice one.

RadioMan
10-29-2011, 01:43 AM
OK, I don't actually own this game, so I have no clue what the fuzz is all about.
Just want to say this one, that if you guys are making jokes about WWII or any war, I am not gonna buy this game at all.
The polish army is actually considered as one of the true heroic army during the ending of WWII, they always had to fight at the front lines or even in the middle of enemy territory, they were treated like ♥♥♥♥ by the US army, since they didn't have any tanks or other modern equipment for that time, so basically they were just a small army who were fighting since day 1 of the war (Germany invaded Poland, which in term triggered all the events afterwards, until Pearl Harbour which basically triggered the actual world war, since the US wasn't really at war before Pearl Harbour)
The time difference is 3 years and during that time alot of the polish army fled their country and had to wait for D-Day to strike back, which they did in a most glorious and heroic way.
No I am not from Poland, but from the Netherlands, but when you take my country and the way they fought here, with such a small army and very basic equipment, you can only be grateful that they were here, even when alot of them left their life at Arnheim during Montgommery's failure of Operation Market Garden. In fact, the end of this is very suspicious..... people were still fighting and the ground troops were about to reach Arnheim, still they decided to stop the transport of new troops and basically left alot of people to die, this includes mostly the polish army.

All I am saying here, it's easy to make fun off an army that was highly limited by numbers and weapons, still you shouldn't do that and only admire their effort and honor their dead, because for obvious reasons (hope they are clear to you guys now) no army in the world suffered that many deaths as the polish army (in percentages) and still they would fight until the last man standing, which speaks of pure heroism in my book.

pTheReaper
10-29-2011, 03:08 AM
Germany invaded Poland 72 years ago. Unless the people posting on this thread are all much older than the average gamer demographic, no-one here was "directly affected" by this.
At some point you just have to let the past go. Plus, it was a damn witty joke all the same.

IridiumStudios
10-29-2011, 03:43 AM
So apparently no one can make any jokes about anything heroic, impressive, tragic, or brave.

RadioMan
10-29-2011, 05:10 AM
Age is not an issue here, my 70 year old dad uses my steam account every day to play a game. I myself am in my 40s and I notice that during my lifetime humor has changed, from very good humor, to very bad.
In other words what's the fun in being a sadist and make jokes about others, better make jokes about yourself or your origin, that way you know how far you can go without hurting others and if you reach the limit, you will be forgiven much more easily, since you are still joking about yourself and therefore making people conscious about certain issues in an entertaining way.
When a white man makes jokes about black people this is not appreciated, same goes when a black guy makes jokes about the white.
When a muslim makes a joke about christians, this is considered to be insulting, again if a christian makes a joke about muslems this is considered an insult again.
In both cases these jokes may even end up in riots or even war, believe me, even when it's 70 years ago, war still is no fun and you can ask this to the millions of people that still suffer war on a daily basis.
By the way, the people that are best known for their self humor are the Jews and the Black people, probably because they had to suffer the most during the recent history.

This is not an attack to anybody's personal taste in humor, if you like sadistic humor, go to a stand up comedian and provoke him to make a complete fool out of you..... I can promise you one thing, you may laugh or you may even cry, truth is, if you laugh you probably laugh because you feel uncomfortable and don't want others to notice this, but you won't be having the perfect night out, unless you are a massochist, and you're into this.
Now when it comes to age, we are probably all too old to be a school bully, who always attacked the weaker kids in class, and only age will teach you how to respond to somebody who felt hurt or attacked by some kind of joke.
The only thing I see inhere is that people attack him because of what he said and that is exactly the reason why I responded.
The only response you can give somebody that admits to be hurt by some joke is to appologize and maybe explain to him, why you think he shouldn't make such an issue about this.

Soul_Harvester
10-29-2011, 06:59 AM
Germany invaded Poland 72 years ago. Unless the people posting on this thread are all much older than the average gamer demographic, no-one here was "directly affected" by this.
At some point you just have to let the past go. Plus, it was a damn witty joke all the same.

When your parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins were all killed in the same event, that event directly affected you and you will likely not think it particularly funny. You, someone who is not in the position, are in no place to tell them when they should or should not be laughing. All the OP said is they didn't think it was funny, and why. That's perfectly acceptable, and you should show them some respect.

If someone says they won't buy the game because they find a joke offensive, that's fine too, they can do that.

Both of these positions are perfectly beyond your reproach, AND are no reason whatsoever to change anything about the game. You demonstrate some sophistication when you can hold two ideas in your head at a time. A person can be offended by a joke others think is funny, and they can BOTH be right. No one is wrong or being unreasonable, unless they start demanding silence, or that people learn to chuckle at the massacre of their loved ones.

RadioMan
10-29-2011, 07:38 AM
I am not saying that I won't buy the game because there is some joke inside that I won't like, just saying that somebody complaint about a joke and everybody here got to attack this guy, which I think was very rude and not what this was all about.

I actually came here to check if it would be possible to use your own music to play the game, which I think can't be done, after reading several posts. Only then I stumbled across this posting and I really felt I had to respond, since I thought the whole discussion was completely out of control.
The original poster, from Poland came with a complaint and everybody had to attack him for what he said, I don't think that was fair and had to say something about this, to try to make everybody think about this again.
Most wars start because of differences, making fun of these differences may only speed up the process.
Now I have to admit that I got angry and didn't think that much when writing my first message and I still was angry writing the second one, but now I had more time to cool down again and see things more into perspective again and I just hope that you guys may come to the conclusion after reading my messages that there was some truth inside there and please, please don't attack anybody that felt hurt and complains about this, without thinking first or placing yourself in his or her shoes.
I think that if this would be done by the leaders of the world, in politics, religion, media, businesses and whatever more you can think off, there would be alot less suffering and war in this world.

EDIT: I am NOT saying that this joke should be removed, just saying that if somebody complains about feeling offended, you should not make more fun out of this.

Soul_Harvester
10-29-2011, 11:21 AM
EDIT: I am NOT saying that this joke should be removed, just saying that if somebody complains about feeling offended, you should not make more fun out of this.

This.

setzway
10-29-2011, 01:42 PM
I find it interesting people are starting to use their own ethnicity and personal experience, or their relative personal experience to fortify their opinion.

I am Polish, Ukrainian. German and Italian. This means that.. my Polish and Ukrainian side of the family was persecuted and murdered in the war by, quite possibly my German and Italian side of the family. My mother's grandparents immigrated to the U.S. during the war, with their children and close relatives. The rest of the men in that family stayed behind to fight in the war, three of them died trying to get them out of the country.

Now my Father's side of the family, the Italian and German half, were in the war. Granted most of them were against Hitler and their ilk. However there were some that supported Hitler and fought in the war alongside the Axis powers. Some of my father's side of the family was killed as well.

My point being...This whole issue is over a joke. A simple, perhaps hurtful and offensive to some, joke. Here's the funny thing about us humans. We are creatures dominated by perception. One may find the joke funny, or at the very least causing a chuckle in my case. While another may find it incredibly offensive and vow to have it changed, which hasn't happened yet, but some were offended. Yet, no side is wrong and no side is right. Does it make me a "bad" person for finding humor in it? Does it make you a "good" person for being offended?

Secondly, for anyone who would want the "joke" changed...It is the creator's right to keep it in or remove it. I may not be fluent in legal terms or the entirety of civil rights governing all countries, but I am confident this falls under the "free speech" portion. However, I'm not against it. I didn't find it funny per say, but I didn't find it offensive either, despite my history.

Now, I for one feel this has been blown out of proportions. Wether it be because someone was "rude" or "attacked" someone's viewpoint, or someone feeling they need to "defend" someone else...

Can we not "let dead dogs lie" as they say?

pTheReaper
10-29-2011, 02:02 PM
@RadioMan/Soul_Harvester:
I didn't "attack" anyone, I simply stated my opinion as well as my believe that some of the posters misunderstand the concept of "directly" vs. "indirectly" (and you have proven my point in your further posts).

Regarding the fact that I couldn't possibly understand how hurtful this is because my family wasn't affected by WWII:
I'm someone of british/dutch descent, living in Germany today.
Members of my family were killed in WWII and today my taxes are used to pay reparations for the attroceties commited by the very people my ancestors fought against. How's that for irony?

Finally, I still think its funny, even though you are of course free to disagree.

setzway
10-29-2011, 02:08 PM
Members of my family were killed in WWII and today my taxes are used to pay reparations for the attroceties commited by the very people my ancestors fought against. How's that for irony?

That's pretty good, just keep in mind not all the Germans supported Hitler. He killed a lot of the German people who didn't agree with him. The Gestoppo were pretty rampant towards everyone.

Oh! How's the kraut there? I was always curious, since the sour kraut in the states kinda blows unless you buy from a european deli.

pTheReaper
10-29-2011, 02:19 PM
@Setzway:
In all honesty, its probably all being produced in some far away country, mixed with chemicals and then send around the world for 6 months until it shows up in Germany or the US.
I suppose it might be easier to get it fresh here, but since I'm not that much of a big fan, I have no idea what the difference in taste would be.

I'm painfully aware of the history of the third reich, every german pupil is. From grade 5 onwards you'll have at least 1/3 of every year devoted to 1933-1945, which might actually explain why I just wish people would stop obsessing about it.
Even though, the popular image of Hitler leading the german people astray isn't all that acurate either. Antisemitism was rampant in Europe even before the 20th century, there were hotels being advertised as "jew free" in Düsseldorf in the 1890ies, for example.
In the end, the holocaust is the shame of those who participated in it, I refuse to feel ashamed for something I had no hand in.

setzway
10-29-2011, 08:32 PM
Hrmm good point on the kraut, I just asked caused my grandmother would always rave about how great it was she was a child.

Thanks for the quick history lesson, being raised in the states makes me somewhat ignorant about the teachings others receive in other countries.

RadioMan
10-30-2011, 10:00 AM
Well again, the whole point is NOT to have this joke removed, the whole point is that if somebody tells that some joke was offensive to HIM (not saying to ME) then I don't expect any responses like the ones given here.
Saying something like, it's over 70 years ago now, just get over it is not the way things should be handled. Appearantly there are lots of people here that think that since the war is over half a century ago, the crimes happened there and families / cultures or even the holocaust should not be talked about, instead it's alot funnier to make jokes about them.
Thankfully because of this war, we live in a free world today (well mostly free) and it's everybody's right to make jokes about everything, but also it is everybody's right to publicly speak out that he or she is offended by a joke.

I only came into this discussion because it was running totally out of control, in fact both me and Soul_Harvester were the only person who took this complaint seriously...... I tried to explain it to everybody here, it's all about RESPECT, just respect somebody that makes this complaint, how irrelevant it may seem to you, it probably may be irrelevant to me too.

In short..... if you can't show any respect for this, just try to think first and put yourself in his or her situation, before you respond and if you respond do it with respect, besides that I think we are all adults here, but this kind of behavior I think is a bit childish.

Again everybody has a right to speak about whatever they want, but if somebody else complaints about something, please try to put yourself in his situation instead of making things worse..... thank you

RadioMan
10-30-2011, 10:11 AM
Just one more thing..... for your information, I am from the Netherlands, when the germans attacked our country, there was hardly any soldiers to keep them out, so they basically walked into my country without being stopped. Lots of people even welcomed them by chearing at the side of the road.
After the bombing of Rotterdam, my country surrendered and the war was only thought by the resistence (which was basically stronger than our army). Even when the whole of europe was at war, my country decided to lower the number of soldiers, sent most soldiers they had overseas, suriname, aruba etc and ofcourse Indonesia to protect their ground there where there was no war at that time, but because the growing tension in the world, they needed to protect the dutch people there.
The dutch government was very stupid back then, they simply thought that an agreement that when they would not choose sides during the war they would not be attacked, even when the dutch and belgian coasts had to be taken, so the english couldn't attack germany directly.
We had our own fascist party before the war started and if it wasn't for our resistance (even when they are not as famous as the french) I would have been even more ashamed of my country.

SSoundscape
10-30-2011, 10:13 AM
Lock.


This.


Thread.

pTheReaper
10-30-2011, 11:15 AM
@RadioMan:
I have said all I had to say about this.
If you believe that I am acting hostile towards the OP or childish, your perception is in error, no amount of discussion will resolve that.

RadioMan
10-30-2011, 12:23 PM
@pTheReaper:
Well I didn't call you being hostile or childish, infact I didn't call anybody childish, unless they are offended by that remark.
It's basically like SS oundscape's remark about the showers, if you feel offended by that.
I don't care if this thread will be locked, I am only asking you guys to think about this. I do understand that talking about this terrible time may hurt you and I understand you want to have your saying in this and I can't say anything more than you are totally right about this..... But the thing is, even though it may seem that I went totally off topic, the topic was that somebody felt offended by a joke and you must understand being german, that there are bad and good jokes about german people, but some may have hurt your feelings, if that's the case you have every right to complain in my book, it's just not right that others start telling you to stop whining about something that happened so many years ago, nobody can guess what you're feelings are towards a certain joke and they should respect that.

That's what I am saying, am sorry that you think I called you childish, that remark was only made to offend people, hoping they would realize that "making fun" of people that are allready hurt (even when you or other's may think they should stop whining) is just not cool.