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View Full Version : Difficulty Balance suggestions


sNOOOOOZ
10-28-2011, 07:46 PM
I played through normal but did have a surprising time reaching abadon, its been a while since I had to actually try hard to complete a game under normal difficulty.

Easy however works as the title suggests. I was able to camp or run and gun to the end.

I see a variety of suggestions but its sprinkled here and there across numerous threads, perhaps gathering those thoughts we could gain some momentum as well as make a bit easier for the devs to scan for suggestions and player opinions.

IMO I believe receiving half a point of health for every demon you kill with a gun and 1.5 the amount of points we get back now for meleeing demons may do the trick.

That way we they do not have to tweak the spawn system or pathing of the demons.

They can implement or vary those values and create several new difficulty levels.

I do strongly suggest that we do keep the existing conditions under current difficulty settings. Its hard but entertaining to try to beat the maps on normal/hard.

RaranTroff
10-28-2011, 08:23 PM
You may be onto something there. If there was a way to gain health by using anything else but c or f the game would be much more playable. As it is if you dare to do anything but melee and execute you will eventually die, its unavoidable. I know there are health stones but 9/10 times they spawn clear across the map and nowhere near where you are.

Yes, to more ways to gain health! Hard but entertaining on normal or above is fine, I will just never play those difficulties. We will see what they do with the new difficulty. I really hope it actually makes the game fun, as it is its just way too frustrating.

They also need to decrease the rang the demons can hit you from with their spit and fire. Also the spawn distance needs to be a bit further away than right up your backside. That would help a ton.

MattGo74
10-28-2011, 08:25 PM
Move the spawn points ***much*** further away and reduce the numbers of monsters spawned in easy, and even more if a very easy/casual is added.

markusarv
10-28-2011, 08:32 PM
The next patch will have health gain for all kills. We had that in the game for a while before release too, but it was dropped. And now it will return :)

tomatos12
10-28-2011, 08:54 PM
You may be onto something there. If there was a way to gain health by using anything else but c or f the game would be much more playable. As it is if you dare to do anything but melee and execute you will eventually die, its unavoidable. I know there are health stones but 9/10 times they spawn clear across the map and nowhere near where you are.

Yes, to more ways to gain health! Hard but entertaining on normal or above is fine, I will just never play those difficulties. We will see what they do with the new difficulty. I really hope it actually makes the game fun, as it is its just way too frustrating.

They also need to decrease the rang the demons can hit you from with their spit and fire. Also the spawn distance needs to be a bit further away than right up your backside. That would help a ton.

it was frustrating at first, but now i can easily beat easy without ever dropping below 100 health c: remember to use your guns and picking up the special weapons. i think its just a matter of playing enough to were the mechanics are just second nature. forgive me if im being to assuming but i dont think your using your guns enough.
anyways, i do agree with you about the health.enviromental rocks but they are addressing them with the next patch :)

Wizzler
10-28-2011, 09:37 PM
The next patch will have health gain for all kills. We had that in the game for a while before release too, but it was dropped. And now it will return :)

:o

Enough?

sNOOOOOZ
10-28-2011, 09:46 PM
I just kind of realized the way the game right now is PERFECT for seasoned hells reach gamers or ones that have played the mod before.

Its challenging and fun, however its not enticing to newbies or women gamers. Now of course not all lady gamers are newbies or have less skills than their male counter part but statistics show that males play WAY more video games per measured sample size than females. And as we all know practice makes perfect :)

So far the few that do like playing coop games like portal and killing floor, is skeptical about this game when I allowed them to play on my account. The most frequently vocalized issue is the awkward movement (feels "clunky" I believe she said), difficulty issue, and it doesn't "feel" as coop as some of the other titles. Now this game isn't just about coop, and I know that but there are a large number of gamers who did buy this game BECAUSE it had coop mode.

Also regarding the health stones, I believe with the way the game stands as of now removing the ability of a demon running with the stone or allow the demon to run around indefinitely would still create a challenge in the game but decrease the frustration a bit for the players. Perhaps an option for the host to disable or enable this mode would be perfect.

Azukki
10-28-2011, 09:47 PM
The next patch will have health gain for all kills. We had that in the game for a while before release too, but it was dropped. And now it will return :)

All kills?! Wow. I imagine you won't need to worry about making an easier difficulty for new players now.

sNOOOOOZ
10-28-2011, 09:49 PM
The next patch will have health gain for all kills. We had that in the game for a while before release too, but it was dropped. And now it will return :)

Seeing that puts a smile on my face and further substantiates that my investment in hells reach was worth it. Its rare territory that developers are that upfront about correcting their product's issues and even fewer would talk about "next patch" right after one has just been released. Thank you. :)

RaranTroff
10-29-2011, 12:04 AM
All kills?! Wow. I imagine you won't need to worry about making an easier difficulty for new players now.

Out out you demons of stupidity. We still want a casual mode devs, do not listen to this poster.

RaranTroff
10-29-2011, 12:11 AM
Seeing that puts a smile on my face and further substantiates that my investment in hells reach was worth it. Its rare territory that developers are that upfront about correcting their product's issues and even fewer would talk about "next patch" right after one has just been released. Thank you. :)

This poster is totally correct. We appreciate you actually listening to the entire community and not just the hardcore gamers.

Hellstrong
10-29-2011, 12:28 AM
The next patch will have health gain for all kills. We had that in the game for a while before release too, but it was dropped. And now it will return :)
so sad to hear this :-(
1st step to mainstream? :'(

markusarv
10-29-2011, 01:01 AM
It is more of an balance change. As before melee or melee only almost was by far the best strategy.

RaranTroff
10-29-2011, 01:31 AM
it was frustrating at first, but now i can easily beat easy without ever dropping below 100 health c: remember to use your guns and picking up the special weapons. i think its just a matter of playing enough to were the mechanics are just second nature. forgive me if im being to assuming but i dont think your using your guns enough.
anyways, i do agree with you about the health.enviromental rocks but they are addressing them with the next patch :)

There is no getting over the frustration. The game is not casual friendly in its current form, you can't enjoy a cold beer and relax while you play as you will end up throwing the beer across the room in a rage. I appreciate that you can enjoy it, but the other 90% of us that bought it can't on easy.

So play on normal, hard, or insano out of your mind difficulty and have fun. I can't even play this game now knowing that it had a feature that could have made it more casual and it was taken out. What kind of bonehead decision was that? "This feature is really great, I think a lot of people will like it and we will make more money. We better take it out."

Patch one has passed, still not playable. Strike 1, 2 strikes left.

Euclix
10-29-2011, 04:28 AM
It is more of an balance change. As before melee or melee only almost was by far the best strategy.

well it will certianly make guns more significant if you can gain health from them.

But gone will be the days of "imma run around and get some health" lol.

sNOOOOOZ
10-29-2011, 05:29 AM
well it will certianly make guns more significant if you can gain health from them.

But gone will be the days of "imma run around and get some health" lol.

Quite the contrary, with the implementation of regaining additional health from your actions you may be just live long enough to keep saying "imma run around and get some health" :)

sNOOOOOZ
10-29-2011, 05:34 AM
Also please display an icon over special weapons and grenade boxes with information containing its contents. I realize that not everyone can devote time each map and remember where each special when is located.

El Vultu
10-29-2011, 05:35 AM
It is more of an balance change. As before melee or melee only almost was by far the best strategy.

But Hard Mode will remain unaffected, right?

To be honest, hard mode is a little too easy to be considered 'The hardest mode possible'. I'd like to have an insane mode, think of L4D's Expert mode.

se05239
10-29-2011, 06:56 AM
I just hope you don't get too much health back from gunning demons down. I think only 1 hp per kill would be enough, no matter the demon or difficulty.

sNOOOOOZ
10-29-2011, 07:54 AM
This is ludicrous, I've had patience with this game up until this point. I was playing on the temple stage and everytime I fail to retrieve the chronostone and the tornadoes come about ALL monsters that spawn are immediately raged!!

WTF, its hard enough as it is with the tornadoes and normal monsters chasing you but why are they all raged? Is this normally how it is? Also why does the temple stage lag insanely hard when the tornadoes appear?

In the castle stronghold where the meteor hits the floor and the stage is in flames I maintain over 50 FPS but it gets really bogged down at the temple. So far that is the only stage that lags for me, it also does not matter if I am soloing the stage or with 3 other people, it still lags horribly with the tornadoes come out.

Wizzler
10-29-2011, 12:30 PM
It is more of an balance change. As before melee or melee only almost was by far the best strategy.

Balance or listening to the guys crying about the "difficulty" on easy mode, because they have played a few rounds, didnt use melee and died faster then they can say "oh ♥♥♥♥"?

Melee = More risk to get ♥♥♥♥♥, good to get some healt back for youre kills.

Range = Stand at the roof, dont move, dont care about timestones, dont care about dead teammember and then loose the round if the "runners" of youre team are dead and for this insane tactic you should get healt back as well?

At least they dont waste amo at the normal mobs during the bossfight and "steal" youre medipacks...

Balance, right.

markusarv
10-29-2011, 04:19 PM
We will keep the game challenging for hardcore players, this game is hard and will stay hard. But we are going to make the easy mode a bit easier. We are also thinking about adding one difficulty that is easier than EASY and one that is harder than HARD.

We are determined to get the balance right and we will keep working on that.

isolated1
10-29-2011, 05:28 PM
I like the game but making it much easier to complete a level would be appreciated., because as it is it's way too hard.

flava_clown
10-29-2011, 05:41 PM
We will keep the game challenging for hardcore players, this game is hard and will stay hard. But we are going to make the easy mode a bit easier. We are also thinking about adding one difficulty that is easier than EASY and one that is harder than HARD.

We are determined to get the balance right and we will keep working on that.

may i suggest that in the "easier than EASY" mode the chronostones and soulstones can't be stolen by minions? because that alone would make things easier.

a better indicator where said stones are could help as well.

TwwIX
10-29-2011, 07:16 PM
This game could have been a blast but it's filled with terrible design decisions. The difficulty is simply ridiculous. It's not challenging nor fun. It's simply frustrating. The movement of the characters and the over all pace of the game is what ruins this game for me. This kind of frantic gameplay may work for top down shooters like Dead Horde and Bunch of Heroes but it just simply doesn't here.

MattGo74
10-29-2011, 08:19 PM
The only way to fix this game would be to greatly reduce rage in enemies, move the spawn points of them like to 50 feet or so rather than inches away (and NOT behind the player) and make the enemies spawn like maybe about 10% what they do now. That would be appropriate for medium difficulty with even more so for easy or very easy.

Seriously, if you want to make this playable for those of us who aren't hardcore gamers stop thinking like a hardcore gamer. Think like someone who has never beaten the first level of any game made in the last decade and who can't even get past the tutorial in modern games. That's where I am and I suspect many others asking for an easy mode are. In other words, make it where on the easiest mode someone who has never played a video game once in their life has a chance of beating a scenario in 3 or 4 tries.

No companies currently make a game where even in "easy" it is beatable by someone like me ever. Not everyone spends 10 hours a day playing games.

mystrdat
10-29-2011, 09:09 PM
We will keep the game challenging for hardcore players, this game is hard and will stay hard. But we are going to make the easy mode a bit easier. We are also thinking about adding one difficulty that is easier than EASY and one that is harder than HARD.

We are determined to get the balance right and we will keep working on that.

This game isn't hard in the core design, the whole difficulty trick is in discovering and spamming most effective mechanics - constant rolling, constant running kick and derived moves etc and potentially interchange between those few. I a nutshell - run and spam the effective moves and occasionally stop for some "unsafe" move (like shoot) to make yourself remember the game has that too.

The learning curve problem is that people expect the game to treat their actions way differently than it does - it's not viable to look back and shoot much, it's not viable to Jackhammer a bunch of creatures since you'll get hit, it's not viable to use knife for anything else than enraged monsters, it's not viable to not press Shift.

I believe you're standing in front a major design issue here, which will determine the future success of your game. But I don't mean just the initially stressful "difficulty", the whole gameplay is hanging on a twig. You got a beautiful core game, you got amazing atmosphere, nice creature set, a lot of really polished small features, but you've built something kinda strange upon it. I'd say putting heads together and trying out some "gamebreaking" experiments may prove absolutely existential in the long run (wild guesses would suggest changing the monster assault system and making them more diverse in utility, drastically lowering their speed, changing the game pace to be less frustrating - I'm not sure, don't take my word here).

For instance: As of now, I don't really care what the monster type is - I'll just roundhouse kick the different model with the same effect, they're all the same. And then I'll do the same for the other monster and the other too. Oh look a red one, better press C. It plays like Tetris. Maestro hVn can Shift+W+E for 40 minutes and longer in Hard Survival and although he likes the game for it's severe demon slaughtering aspect and the cool moves, he ackowledges it's pretty much broken.

I understand that the game does have a very specific fanbase for what it is now, but those will not stay forever with the current narrow gameplay, even more so when there's no endgame motivation as it's too arcady. Well, there goes my 50p that I took the time to write just because I very much like your work here, but it cannot last in the current state.

sNOOOOOZ
10-30-2011, 02:12 AM
We will keep the game challenging for hardcore players, this game is hard and will stay hard. But we are going to make the easy mode a bit easier. We are also thinking about adding one difficulty that is easier than EASY and one that is harder than HARD.

We are determined to get the balance right and we will keep working on that.

That was exactly what I was hoping, I assume that you guys created this game with hardcore gamers in mind and are sticking to your guns. I applaud you and your team for doing so. So many titles only consider how many copies they can sell by hooking the initial player wave that they do not care for what comes afterward.

I believe your decision to have the gameplay stay hard is a wise one.

A couple of suggestions would be to change the current easy mode and give it the label normal mode. Then create a difficulty level between the current easy and normal because even to a hardcore gamer like myself normal is still quite challenging, its not a mode where you want to play after a hard day at work where you just want to kick up your feet and enjoy some casual killing.

sNOOOOOZ
11-01-2011, 08:32 AM
So far I believe the majority of changes that has been has been added has made the game more enjoyable.

1)health regen from weapons actually give players a reason to use weapons instead of kicking everything.

2)Mobs are not spawning in groups around you anymore, a few spawn near you but not in groups. This allows the player to seek out enemies and move around the map but not at a hectic pace all the time where now I actually have the a few seconds to enjoy the architectural of the maps.

3)Weapon upgrade meter fills faster or now requires less points to fullfill. I now can upgrade the shotgun to the max, have akimbo uzis and dual pistols. This allows me to choose roughly two weapons to upgrade fully if I wanted to added versatility to my gameplay.

If I do feel that the game has become too easy I simply walk toward particular spots in the map where enemies congregate. Before the patch I was always on the run, now at brief moments I can actually take the fight to the demons if I've conserved my health.