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Kei-chan
11-02-2011, 08:16 PM
Are fixes for the multiplayer issues still being looked into, or have the devs just moved on to focusing on other localization efforts at this point?

KawaiiSara
11-02-2011, 08:51 PM
Don't worry, I haven't forgotten.
It's next on the list of things to look at, actually, but I'm dealing with a lot of other stuff on my plate at the sec.

Zero254
11-13-2011, 09:58 PM
We also need stage select online as well.

KawaiiSara
11-23-2011, 03:00 PM
Just wanted you guys to know that I'm planning to put in some time working on netplay issues very soon.

arukAdo
11-27-2011, 12:48 PM
I tryed to play online with a friend today and the game went a bit crazy, basicly we would get 5 seconds freezing (the game doesnt respond anymore) for 1-2 seconds of gameplay, we play quite many others game together so im pretty sure our ping is acceptable, is theres anything we can do to fix that problem? or if its what everybody else is experimenting already ? (and what the fix is aiming at)

We tryed to switch to 30fps, disable steam overlay, turn off the font mode, but both our games run perfectly fine single player so im kinda running out of ideas to fix that, the game basicly start freezing right at the begin.

(Basicly bought the game for co-op with price drop, neither of us are really whiling to do single player)

KawaiiSara
11-27-2011, 01:37 PM
I know there are problems. In an upcoming patch the lag spike problems might improve a little bit, and then I'll take a more thorough look at it before the month is over.

arukAdo
11-27-2011, 05:17 PM
Thanks for the quick answer, looking forward for the patch :D
So this is a general problem ? The game seem pretty empty so I couldnt find somebody else to test and see if it was just between us or if everybody get the same troubles.

Mechta
11-28-2011, 11:42 AM
The recent patch made it "worse". Not meaning to be mean or anything, but the game now crashes (where it usually just stopped for delay syncing) immediately, when desync occures.

Also, it's nice to see the player count in the Online lobby now. Makes you realize you're not all alone. ^^
And the region filter is nice.

KawaiiSara
11-28-2011, 02:14 PM
The recent patch made it "worse". Not meaning to be mean or anything, but the game now crashes (where it usually just stopped for delay syncing) immediately, when desync occures.

How odd. But I'll be looking into it more properly ASAP. Sorry about that x.x

Hawkmania
11-30-2011, 02:53 PM
Hey, just thought I'd let you know, I finally got a friend to get the Gundemonium Collection, although to our dismay, we also have these issues. At first we thought it might have been programs eating up our computers resources, but when we tried afterwards, we'd only get as far as the first sub-boss.

I'm not sure if it's relevant, but playing on Novice, I got to the sub-boss, but playing on Demonic, it just flat out crashed in 5 seconds. Though I am not sure if this was down to an ordinary disconnection, or the game having effect on the connection, i.e. taking realistic slowdown into account (not sure if this was an incorporated feature, it's just purely for example).

Anyway, I appreciate you've been working on this. If I don't pop on here much, I'll keep an eye out for the next patch, then check back here to let you know if the patch fixed any of the issues in that area.

Also, sorry I've been dead around here, funerals, feuds and family fun, seriously.

Kind regards
~ Hawk

LeRaldo
12-07-2011, 08:19 PM
The netplay is unplayable for myself and my friends. If you really care about making it not only playable, but the best it can truly be, I suggest licensing GGPO (http://ggpo.net/) netcode and incorporating it into your game.

Me2nice
12-07-2011, 08:43 PM
The netplay is unplayable for myself and my friends. If you really care about making it not only playable, but the best it can truly be, I suggest licensing GGPO (http://ggpo.net/) netcode and incorporating it into your game.

NO. They should make their own.

LeRaldo
12-08-2011, 09:14 AM
NO. They should make their own.
Why? Nothing they make can compare to GGPO, and will likely remain unplayable.

StarCreator
12-08-2011, 01:40 PM
Why? Nothing they make can compare to GGPO, and will likely remain unplayable.

I'm sure Sara loves the vote of confidence here.

It's pure fallacy to assume a lag-reduction technique like GGPO's would work for a shooting game. GGPO works by intentionally adding input lag, which makes players adjust on a subconscious level, and rolling the entire game backward if a desync is created by network latency becoming worse than the added lag. Adding lag to a shooting game makes it much more difficult (arguably more so than it does with a competitive fighting game), and introducing rollbacks would be pretty much unacceptable as it would ruin player movement strategy.

LeRaldo
12-08-2011, 02:34 PM
I'm sure Sara loves the vote of confidence here.

It's pure fallacy to assume a lag-reduction technique like GGPO's would work for a shooting game. GGPO works by intentionally adding input lag, which makes players adjust on a subconscious level, and rolling the entire game backward if a desync is created by network latency becoming worse than the added lag. Adding lag to a shooting game makes it much more difficult (arguably more so than it does with a competitive fighting game), and introducing rollbacks would be pretty much unacceptable as it would ruin player movement strategy.

Except that this is factually incorrect. GGPO allows you adjust the input delay by a number of frames. The default is 1 frame of input delay. Think about that for a second. If the game is running at 60fps, that's 1/60th of a second of input delay, which is undetectable. In fact if you're playing on an LCD monitor, chances are you're getting way more input delay just off of that. Then you factor in if you're playing via a usb peripheral (keyboard or game controller) your input delay is already +8ms. Not to forget that GGPO actually lets you set the delay to 0, so that there is none...

Also, the rollbacks are actually very minimal unless your connection is absolutely awful, in which case GGPO is still the best netcode solution available. All I can say is you need to experience this specific netcode before you can comment on it, because too many people have misconceptions and don't know what they're talking about.

As for GGPO netcode not working with shmups, this is also wrong, as it has been tested on all types of arcade games and works flawlessly. You can even try it for yourself.

And my previous post wasn't meant as a slight against Sara. But I've seen too many games rendered unplayable online by bad netcode (such as this one), and GGPO already exists and has proven itself. People have tried to emulate it and failed. The creator of GGPO is a reasonable person and if it's at all possible, licensing GGPO would easily be the best solution.

KawaiiSara
12-11-2011, 11:48 AM
It's not that simple. True rollback-based netplay involves a lot of changes to the internal framework of a game like this, and is much harder to implement with this kind of title than others. It only makes the delay less apparent as well, it can't eliminate it unless your connection is incredible; Let me put it this way. 1 second is 1,000 milliseconds. That means at 60 FPS, you need to be getting input faster than about 16 milliseconds to have a true 0 delay. While this IS possible, it requires both people to have a very incredible connection by today's standards. GGPO cannot do true 0 delay on most connections, it can just make it appear that way by giving you zero input lag but doing much more rolling back to cope with it. This is actually pretty jarring for some people.

It's not as simple as just licensing existing technology in the first place, because all solutions must be adapted to a game in order to function. In many cases, this is actually easier to do with an emulator than an ordinary game due to the way an emulator keeps track of the game's state. With a game like this, the randomization has to be seeded to make sure that the game synchronizes properly, and that also means that any rollbacks must be able to revert that randomization state, which is not currently possible with the library this game uses.

While it can be possible to roll back the state of such randomization through recoding it from scratch, it involves a lot of time and effort, as does making the game keep track of previous states in general to allow rollbacks. Even if we were to implement existing framework, these factors would have to be dealt with accordingly and could not just be ignored.

One issue hampering the current netplay is that there is no quick and easy way to detect ping in the code that I am using to handle the peer-to-peer netplay, a fact I am trying to work around. On top of that, while I've actually worked out very solid netplay for other things multiple times in the past, it was my first time working with Steam's own methods for such things, and I accept that my skill at using it isn't great. Even so, I promise you that I am doing my best to fix it, and I'm not going to just abandon the game. These things do take time, though, and I have a lot of other stuff on my plate right now that's making it take a while longer.

I'm sorry for that.

If it were something I could "just plug in," believe me, I would. I want what's best for you guys, here.

LeRaldo
12-11-2011, 07:38 PM
I would go into detail about why you're wrong about several things related to GGPO, but since licensing it is apparently not an option, I'll refrain since it would be pointless.

I will say that a rollback based netcode is still infinitely better at higher pings or unstable connections than is input delay based or frameskip based (or a combination of the two) netcodes.

I know you can't just "plug in" a new style of netcode, and drastically altering what you already have would be a lot of work. But I feel like if this game is going to be enjoyable online then that's probably the only option.

KawaiiSara
12-16-2011, 03:04 AM
I've got a patch coming next week-ish that should at least get it back to non-crashing state.

ApplesGalore
12-20-2011, 03:47 PM
Bought the game, cannot play over the net without the game locking up for 20 seconds every frame. Bump for relevant issue.

Zero254
12-20-2011, 06:26 PM
I wonder if client side hit detection would fix this.

ApplesGalore
12-20-2011, 08:50 PM
I wonder if client side hit detection would fix this.

Most of the multiplayer non competitive games I play use what I think you're talking about. It runs perfectly on your screen, then relays the data to the other person of what you've done. It doesn't look pretty, but it would function much better than it does now with the .5-1s latency in a bullet hell game whenever I don't freeze with 1fps.

arukAdo
01-03-2012, 04:17 AM
I was about to make a huge complain and call names for lack of patching, but before I wanted to give it another chance with my friend, it _seem_ that they fixed the netcode enought so thats its playable now, im sure its not perfect and could be better, but at least it seem to work, thanks.

YourBase
01-03-2012, 04:28 AM
When i and my friend try to play the multiplayer, we both start to stutter very badly :/

arukAdo
01-03-2012, 04:35 AM
We had that before, but somehow its gone for us, so either the game have outstanding bad tolerance to any ping fluctuation between the 2 players or they fixed something.

Sobol14
02-02-2012, 04:33 PM
Sometimes the online co-op is unplayable, but sometimes it plays kinda like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFlXoXEaAKQ
We had a few freezings is that run which aren't on the video, but nothing that was game breaking, maybe just some random stupid deaths.
I still don't get what is responsible for random slowdowns.

arukAdo
02-09-2012, 04:04 AM
We have same problem here, its just randomly unplayable, we just pray before starting a duet and if its impossible to play usually the day after it works...
Its kinda annoying, its likely a ping issue but what doesnt make sences is that it vary so much from playable to just unplayable, while obviously the distance and ping didnt variated _that_ much (if any...)