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sentinel21
12-03-2011, 06:45 AM
Today Post-Launch Reviews talks about why you should care about Guild Wars 2, even if you don't normally play MMOs. There have been a lot of these articles, but this one takes a slightly different approach.

What do you think about the article? Do YOU care about Guild Wars 2?

http://postlaunch.blogspot.com/2011/12/why-you-should-care-about-guild-wars-2.html

GirlPower23
12-03-2011, 06:49 AM
Sounds like Star Wars, another game catering to Solo Play and not the mass group. ArenaNet has forgotten what the MMO means in MMORPG while trying to bring the RPG. However, generally the RPG stands for roleplaying which all MMORPGs facilitate. That hasn't "gone" anywhere. What ArenaNet is doing is giving a single player experience. It's always nice to seem MMORPGs go down the tubes because of people who want their solo experience in a multiplayer game. Contradicting people FTW.

Although the "Instanced Area" and "Gear Customization" are a plus. I don't give a crap about the rest, especially because it focuses on a single player experience.

I had hopes they were trying something new, but instead decided to copy cat SWTOR. Might as well start calling them SPORPGs (Single Player Online Role Playing Games.)

sentinel21
12-03-2011, 06:56 AM
Although the "Instanced Area" and "Gear Customization" are a plus. I don't give a crap about the rest, especially because it focuses on a single player experience.

But it doesn't. It's not discussed much in this article, but one of the design goals for GW2 is to make it easy, fun, and desirable to group up. Since the dynamic events scale based on the number of players involved, and you don't have to be in a formal party to perform combos, you can team up with any and all random people that come by. You'll help each other out just by being close enough to each other, due to AoE buffs and combo initiators. If you have fun, maybe you'll stick together for a while, join each others' guilds, or even set up a formal dungeon group.

Also, everyone gets 100% of the loot for each encounter. None of that "boss drops 1 item, roll to see who gets it" crap -- everyone gets a drop, everyone gets gold and karma rewards.

In most MMOs you get more loot the smaller the party, or you have to worry about that guy stealing your quest kill, or watch for enemy factions. So in GW2 there's no reason at all to avoid grouping up. That sounds pretty social and multiplayer-enabling to me.

Not to mention that the dungeons require five-man groups. I'm not sure if they do for the first story run-through, but you can't do EVERYTHING in GW2 by yourself.

Honestly, I'm confused as to where this "GW2 is a single-player MMO" sentiment comes from. They've been putting so much work into making it fun and easy to group up that I'm not sure why people think it'll be a solo game.

Citizen Goat
12-03-2011, 07:04 AM
Bah, if Guild Wars 2 is as fun as the first one, they can take my money, I buy it.

But I'll wait for gameplay videos before negatively or positively pre-judging the game...

GirlPower23
12-03-2011, 07:05 AM
But it doesn't. It's not discussed much in this article, but one of the design goals for GW2 is to make it easy, fun, and desirable to group up. Since the dynamic events scale based on the number of players involved, and you don't have to be in a formal party to perform combos, you can team up with any and all random people that come by. If you have fun, maybe you'll stick together for a while, join each others' guilds, or even set up a formal dungeon group.

Also, everyone gets 100% of the loot for each encounter. None of that "boss drops 1 item, roll to see who gets it" crap -- everyone gets a drop, everyone gets gold and karma rewards.


Being able to join more than one guild goes to show that it's facilitating that loan wolf thing. "I'll join all these guilds and if I need their help I can ask, but I won't need to." ArenaNet is not trying to create a bond between guild mates. They are just using them as quite LFG/LFWhatever groups. This isn't supporting a community but the lone wolf.

Giving gear to everyone is not something I agree to. It will also bite ArenaNet on the ♥♥♥. The reason they don't give guaranteed loot for all in raids is because progression would be over in a month and people screaming for new content. It's a carrot to force players to keep going back and make them keep playing. I also just don't agree with it because it's catering to casuals who have literally destroyed the MMORPG Genre. Wanting everything with their me me me attitude and then ♥♥♥♥♥ when there isn't enough content afterwards. At the same time it kills any hardcore players interest in the game.

Scaled Events means it can be done solo, like I said.. just more ways to facilitate single player experiences or small group experiences. It's not trying to build a community but cater to those who want something now. The problem with this is that it means it will get boring fast. Just look at RIFT if you need an example. Rifts were cool for the first bit of time, now the game itself is a snorefest. Awesome right? No Formal Also means not building a community. Blizzard killed their community with LFG and now LFR Tools. This game will suffer the same fate. There will be no server community, which is contradicts the "MMO" part.

In most MMOs you get more loot the smaller the party, or you have to worry about that guy stealing your quest kill, or watch for enemy factions. So in GW2 there's no reason at all to avoid grouping up. That sounds pretty social and multiplayer-enabling to me.

Yep, those MMORPGs will keep going while players in GW2 have their thumbs up their butts with no content left to run because gear was handed to them on a silver platter. World of Warcraft is losing players because there wasn't enough content. How do you think new fresh MMORPGs without enough content will do? You have to stifle the progression to get more content out to your players.

Not to mention that the dungeons require five-man groups. I'm not sure if they do for the first story run-through, but you can't do EVERYTHING in GW2 by yourself.
Didn't say the entirety of it was solo, but GW2 is the one adding the solo dungeons is it not or is that RIFT? I can't recall. In any case, the whole "SP STORY" Is not fully adding the RPG into the game. They should be trying to create a community and give tools for players to ROLE PLAY their characters with other players. That's what the RP in RPG means.

Zyinxz
12-03-2011, 07:05 AM
Bah, if Guild Wars 2 is as fun as the first one, they can take my money, I buy it.

But I'll wait for gameplay videos before negatively or positively pre-judging the game...

Wait.. are you telling me you've never seen any gameplay videos before? They are out there..

Excygy
12-03-2011, 07:05 AM
MMO stands only for massive multiplayer online. It just mean that you play with a big load of people and you can invite anyone you meet on your way to a quest or you can meet a lot of person for group quest.

MMO doesnt mean, "sup guys we are 2000 players on this server so we will force you to play each quest with a group of people, only because WE CAN"

If it's the way you liek to plyay fine, but personnaly i jsut prefer going, solo, with npcs, or with 2-3 friends from time to time. and be able to meet any players or jsut talk on the general chat while doing the quest.

I played GW 1 and i like it, but it was TOO MUCH solo, i mean when you were leaving the city you were all alone, in a linear path, now i prefer going alone at my rhythm an if i see another player in the mid of the same quest then me, i'll join it, or for flashpoints, dungeon, PVP etc.

GW looks nice, I'll try it eventually because it's the cheaper MMO and because the art style is just so god damn gorgeous!

Citizen Goat
12-03-2011, 07:12 AM
Wait.. are you telling me you've never seen any gameplay videos before? They are out there..

I meant gameplay videos of regular John Does playing the released version. (That's why I never pre-order anything) :)

sentinel21
12-03-2011, 07:22 AM
Giving gear to everyone is not something I agree to. It will also bite ArenaNet on the ♥♥♥. The reason they don't give guaranteed loot for all in raids is because progression would be over in a month and people screaming for new content. It's a carrot to force players to keep going back and make them keep playing. I also just don't agree with it because it's catering to casuals who have literally destroyed the MMORPG Genre. Wanting everything with their me me me attitude and then ♥♥♥♥♥ when there isn't enough content afterwards. At the same time it kills any hardcore players interest in the game.

Here's an example of something GW2 is doing with gear drops. I'd be interested to hear what you think.

Each dungeon has a full 5-piece armour set associated with it. When you clear the dungeon, you earn a token redeemable for one piece of the armour of your choice. So it takes 5 runs of the dungeon for the full armour set. However, it's ALWAYS 5 runs -- you don't have to worry about the wrong piece dropping, or someone else getting it, or nothing dropping at all. And since the dungeons have a story mode and then an exploration mode with branching paths that change the area, each run through the dungeon should be different.

Dynamic events only reward gold and karma, as far as I know. Dungeons, the places to get actual special loot drops, are more challenging and require a formal 5-man group.

Guild Wars 1 enjoyed a strong following without any real progression at all -- when you got to max level, everyone had easy access to the best gear, and any grinding was done for rare cosmetic variants instead of stronger items. That aspect will still be present in GW2, but with the addition of a much longer progression.

Hardcore players aren't as big a market as you might think. The success of the Wii should be proof enough of that. In any case, GW2 isn't intended to be easy -- it's intended to be accessible. Those are two very different things.

Didn't say the entirety of it was solo, but GW2 is the one adding the solo dungeons is it not or is that RIFT? I can't recall. In any case, the whole "SP STORY" Is not fully adding the RPG into the game. They should be trying to create a community and give tools for players to ROLE PLAY their characters with other players. That's what the RP in RPG means.

Other players don't have to be involved at all for a game to be an RPG. Otherwise how do Diablo, Elder Scrolls, Mass Effect, Fallout, etc count as RPGs? RPG simply means you take on the role of a character, play as if you are that character, and make choices and actions that affect the development and outcome of the story. Guild Wars 2 will have that.

GirlPower23
12-03-2011, 07:35 AM
Here's an example of something GW2 is doing with gear drops. I'd be interested to hear what you think.

Each dungeon has a full 5-piece armour set associated with it. When you clear the dungeon, you earn a token redeemable for one piece of the armour of your choice. So it takes 5 runs of the dungeon for the full armour set. However, it's ALWAYS 5 runs -- you don't have to worry about the wrong piece dropping, or someone else getting it, or nothing dropping at all. And since the dungeons have a story mode and then an exploration mode with branching paths that change the area, each run through the dungeon should be different.


Where is the incentive to keep going to that dungeon after you've taken your gear? When you are max level and wondering what to do, that dungeon doesn't sound so great. However, lets take someone who still needs gear. He or she now has something to do because it wasn't a guaranteed chance. Where is ArenaNet going to keep getting this content to keep feeding their players appetite. This is why I dislike this form of loot, it kills any reason for people to keep doing dungeons. It's the same for raids. Once you've got all the gear there is little incentive to go back. Unless there are hard modes that take more time. (Don't even know if GW2 has raids.) The point I'm trying to make is they are giving away gear which is detrimental to how long content lasts.


Guild Wars 1 enjoyed a strong following without any real progression at all -- when you got to max level, everyone had easy access to the best gear, and any grinding was done for rare cosmetic variants instead of stronger items. That aspect will still be present in GW2, but with the addition of a much longer progression.
Guild Wars had a relatively small community and the only reason people stick around is because it's a Buy Once then play for free MMO. That was it's only saving grace and that will be Guild War 2s. I understand the enhancements they are making, but most are for casuals who are destroying this market and refuse to be challenged.

Hardcore players aren't as big a market as you might think. The success of the Wii should be proof enough of that. In any case, GW2 isn't intended to be easy -- it's intended to be accessible. Those are two very different things.
Casuals are the ones who will buy the game and play it a few months. Dedicated players will stick around forever. Hardcore aren't a big market, never said they were. However, they should be just as important. The entire genre itself has gone to crap because of catering to one demography and not the other. Catering to casuals and giving them everything is what kills MMORPGs pretty fast.


Other players don't have to be involved at all for a game to be an RPG. Otherwise how do Diablo, Elder Scrolls, Mass Effect, Fallout, etc count as RPGs? RPG simply means you take on the role of a character, play as if you are that character, and make choices and actions that affect the development and outcome of the story. Guild Wars 2 will have that.
It's pretty subjective. However, roleplaying your character is vastly different to doing a few quests and having NPC respond differently to you. I guess if you ever did D&D you'd understand what real roleplaying is. ;)

To keep this all short. A few things in GW2 piqued my interest, I now have lost interest in the game entirely. It's doing nothing to take me from WoW, it's just another casual MMO like WoW. I want an MMORPG that breeds a community to work together to overcome things. WoW had the the beginning. Where people had to know each other, work together, knowing who ninjas were, names meant something. You couldn't just smack talk in a group and get away with it. Now it's the complete opposite. I'm old school when it comes to MMORPGs so I prefer that old design, I don't mind casuals getting help, but I also dislike when their help affects my game play. GW2 is centered around casuals, that's not my thing.

sentinel21
12-03-2011, 07:57 AM
Where is the incentive to keep going to that dungeon after you've taken your gear? When you are max level and wondering what to do, that dungeon doesn't sound so great. However, lets take someone who still needs gear. He or she now has something to do because it wasn't a guaranteed chance. Where is ArenaNet going to keep getting this content to keep feeding their players appetite. This is why I dislike this form of loot, it kills any reason for people to keep doing dungeons. It's the same for raids. Once you've got all the gear there is little incentive to go back. Unless there are hard modes that take more time. (Don't even know if GW2 has raids.) The point I'm trying to make is they are giving away gear which is detrimental to how long content lasts.

Okay, but here's the thing. I'm definitely what you'd consider a hardcore gamer. I have 2,000 hours logged on GW1, 1,000 hours on TF2, and over 3,000 hours on my other Steam games, not to mention several thousand more that I don't have a hard number on because my Nintendo systems don't track playtime.

Why should I want to play the same dungeon over and over and over? That's stupid. That's grind. No one wants to grind; they want the rewards that come out of grinding. ArenaNet wants to build a game where there is no grind. If you want to play the same dungeon 50 times, there's nothing to stop you from doing so. You'll still earn gold and item drops. The dev team hasn't yet announced any mechanics for weapon drops as far as I know, so maybe there'll be rare weapon skins for you to grind for. Maybe you'll be able to sell those armour tokens to other players, we don't know that yet. There will definitely be titles and achievements. But why should I be forced to play the same dungeon 50 times just to get the armour I want? If that's the case, by the time I earn my armour, I'll have outlevelled it already and it'll be useless.

Guild Wars 2 makes grind optional. If you want to do it, it's there, no one's stopping you. But the majority of gamers -- even hardcore ones -- don't want to repeat the same content over and over and over just to get a single tiny little reward. A huge part of the reason that GW2's word-of-mouth has been so strong are those MMO players who are tired of being forced to repeat content and just want to play the game.

And honestly, in WoW for example, what's the reason to do the same raid over and over? To keep up. You grind for that epic gear not because it's the gear you want, but because it's the best gear, and if you don't have it no one will want to play with you. That's extremely antisocial for a genre that's considered so social, so it's very weird to me that you're calling GW2 a single-player game that's not very good at encouraging people to play together.

And besides -- in WoW, what's the incentive to keep doing the dungeon after you've picked up the rare loot drop after a randomly-determined number of runs?

(I say WoW not because I assume you're a WoW player, but because it's considered the gold standard in terms of MMOs)

It's pretty subjective. However, roleplaying your character is vastly different to doing a few quests and having NPC respond differently to you. I guess if you ever did D&D you'd understand what real roleplaying is. ;)

I've been playing D&D for ten years. I own over 30 books and have written hundreds of pages of custom content. Is that enough for me to understand what real roleplaying is?

Levi
12-03-2011, 08:00 AM
Still looks like a "generic fantasy bash monsters over the head with weapon until you level up" game to me.

sentinel21
12-03-2011, 08:07 AM
Still looks like a "generic fantasy bash monsters over the head with weapon until you level up" game to me.

Can I ask why? And what makes that different from CoD's "generic war shoot guys until you get a cutscene" game?

Excygy
12-03-2011, 08:12 AM
Can I ask why? And what makes that different from CoD's "generic war shoot guys until you get a cutscene" game?

wh...why....why did you had to compare GW to CoD?...why? it doenst make any sense.

and when did he talked about CoD

GirlPower23
12-03-2011, 08:15 AM
I've been playing D&D for ten years. I own over 30 books and have written hundreds of pages of custom content. Is that enough for me to understand what real roleplaying is?

Then you wouldn't be calling what GW2 "RolePlaying" in the least bit.



And honestly, in WoW for example, what's the reason to do the same raid over and over? To keep up. You grind for that epic gear not because it's the gear you want, but because it's the best gear, and if you don't have it no one will want to play with you. That's extremely antisocial for a genre that's considered so social, so it's very weird to me that you're calling GW2 a single-player game that's not very good at encouraging people to play together.

And besides -- in WoW, what's the incentive to keep doing the dungeon after you've picked up the rare loot drop after a randomly-determined number of runs?

(I say WoW not because I assume you're a WoW player, but because it's considered the gold standard in terms of MMOs)

You fail to understand that without incentives and carrots to keep players going back to these dungeons the population will fall. That's just the nature of the beast. I don't care if you dislike grind, I don't care if you like it. What matters if there is not enough incentive people will move onto a different game. Guild Wars 1 had tiny population, because there wasn't enough content. You think handing out loot every run is enough content? You are kidding yourself.' World of Warcraft also hands out Valor and Justice points for every dungeon. Which is another incentive to keep doing the dungeon over and over.

Also you don't raid in WoW to get the best gear "So people will play with you" because that's simply not true. You get the best gear to progress to the next tier of raiding when it opens up. You challenge yourself and 10/25 others to kick butt. It's also a very social event, trust me. It creates guild bonding, which is the opposite of what you said.

WoW has it's own mechanics that kill server communities. Like Looking for Dungeon which means it auto queues you with other servers to do dungeons. That kills the social aspect of your realm and no community is formed.

sentinel21
12-03-2011, 08:40 AM
Then you wouldn't be calling what GW2 "RolePlaying" in the least bit.

Why not? You've only addressed GW2, not the other examples I provided. If GW2 is not a roleplaying game, is WoW? Is Skyrim? Why?

Wikipedia defines a roleplaying game as "a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting, or through a process of structured decision-making or character development. Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines"

The Random House dictionary defines a roleplaying game as "a game in which participants adopt the roles of imaginary characters in an adventure under the direction of a Game Master."

How does GW2 not fit those descriptions? What "tools" do you need to be able to roleplay with other players? D&D manages just fine by providing a world and telling people to talk to each other, how does GW2 not do that?

You fail to understand that without incentives and carrots to keep players going back to these dungeons the population will fall. That's just the nature of the beast. I don't care if you dislike grind, I don't care if you like it. What matters if there is not enough incentive people will move onto a different game. Guild Wars 1 had tiny population, because there wasn't enough content. You think handing out loot every run is enough content? You are kidding yourself.' World of Warcraft also hands out Valor and Justice points for every dungeon. Which is another incentive to keep doing the dungeon over and over.

But it's a different model. GW2 is not a subscription game, so it doesn't have to play like one. GW2 does not want you to keep coming back and keep playing the same content, it wants you to have fun. They'll make their money not by making players need to keep playing, but by making a game that people enjoy and selling more copies. They'll make money by offering customization options in the cash shop.

Moving on to something else is just part of gaming. The developers of Mass Effect or Half-Life don't need to provide incentives for me to continue playing, they just want me to play the game. Guild Wars 2 works the same way. They don't need to keep dangling that carrot just out of reach to keep squeezing money out of me, they already have my money.

Most MMOs are designed around keeping players paying. An MMO that doesn't use a subscription model is free to design a game that's just fun to play, as opposed to one that psychologically influences me to come back over and over. People will play Guild Wars 2 because they enjoy it, not because maybe today they'll get that uber-rare sword. If your idea of fun is playing the same dungeon 50 times, you can still do that, but you're not needed or expected to do so.

You seem to be trying to fit GW2 into a subscription-mechanics box, but that's exactly where it doesn't want to be.

cwbys21
12-03-2011, 10:03 AM
Sentinel, your enthusiasm for GW2 is great, but just ignore girlpower, its obviously her time of the month and is just being cranky.

sentinel21
12-03-2011, 10:05 AM
Sentinel, your enthusiasm for GW2 is great, but just ignore girlpower, its obviously her time of the month and is just being cranky.

That's very sexist of you.

cwbys21
12-03-2011, 10:14 AM
not really.

MrSniker
12-03-2011, 11:28 AM
I'm excited about Guild Wars 2 simply because there's no monthly fee, and the whole token for armor seems like a great idea. I remember doing the Mines in Moria in LOTRO and trying to get the whole radiance set. Certain instances were a pain to finish, like the headpiece one, and playing with a PUG or non-hardcore group often times meant many wipes. When we did beat it I felt ripped off not getting any further towards my goal of a 6/6 set.

I also like them getting rid of the tank and healer classes, and making everyone even. I also agree with a lot of your posts about grinding, and to me grinding is somewhat fun for a while when there's actual rewards. But in the instances of drops grinding dungeons is tedious because you're not actually guaranteed anything. What's the point of chasing after the carrot when you don't even know if it's there?

epicphail
12-03-2011, 11:53 AM
interesting.

jenovaweapon
12-03-2011, 11:55 AM
Hopefully it's better than Guild Wars 1 was. The graphics look great so far and hoping it has a decent amount of solo content.

jeffreydean1
12-03-2011, 12:22 PM
Sentinel, your enthusiasm for GW2 is great, but just ignore girlpower, its obviously her time of the month and is just being cranky.

Naw, she acts like this in every thread I've ever seen her post in. As soon as I see her name come up I just roll my eyes. Im sure most SPUFers feel the same way about her.

IcarusNine
12-03-2011, 12:46 PM
The Random House dictionary defines a roleplaying game as "a game in which participants adopt the roles of imaginary characters in an adventure under the direction of a Game Master."

How does GW2 not fit those descriptions?

GMs in MMOs are merely admins/moderators, aren't they? They certainly don't construct dungeons or control enemy units.

Son, I am derp
12-03-2011, 12:46 PM
It is remarkable the detailed conclusions people have reached about GW2 without the game even being in a public beta. If there is one MMO with at least a vague chance in hell of bringing something new to the table, it's this one. As much fun as it is to be jaded on the internet, it behooves you to realize from time to time that some games have some real potential. One look at SWTOR and you could tell it brought nothing to the table. One look at this game and at least you see some interesting ideas.

Piippo
12-03-2011, 12:53 PM
Been hyped for GW2 since -08. It can't come soon enough.

I meant gameplay videos of regular John Does playing the released version. (That's why I never pre-order anything) :)
You do realize ANet has taken the game all over different gaming conventions? Go to YouTube and search "Guild Wars 2 gameplay" and you're guaranteed to find hundreds of videos of random Gamescom/PAX/whatever goers playing the game.

sentinel21
12-03-2011, 12:58 PM
GMs in MMOs are merely admins/moderators, aren't they? They certainly don't construct dungeons or control enemy units.

That's a reference to pen-and-paper RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons. I guess that particular dictionary is a little behind the times. The GM in that sense in a video game would be the dev team, I guess.

dachshundfan
12-03-2011, 03:27 PM
guild wars 1 was fun so im definitely picking up Guild was 2...

GirlPower23
12-03-2011, 03:36 PM
You seem to be trying to fit GW2 into a subscription-mechanics box, but that's exactly where it doesn't want to be.

I generally play MMORPG's for the long haul. Some people might play it in short intervals, but if I can't dedicate a year or longer with a good amount of content it's really not for me. You are however right, the more people not paying are just taking money. This game isn't designed for the long haul. Although with a Micro Transaction shop, one could argue that it's exactly what they are aiming for. Micro Transactions are just another way to make profit and keep players in the game.

It is remarkable the detailed conclusions people have reached about GW2 without the game even being in a public beta. If there is one MMO with at least a vague chance in hell of bringing something new to the table, it's this one. As much fun as it is to be jaded on the internet, it behooves you to realize from time to time that some games have some real potential. One look at SWTOR and you could tell it brought nothing to the table. One look at this game and at least you see some interesting ideas.

Tera Online would like to say hello.

sentinel21
12-04-2011, 08:09 AM
I generally play MMORPG's for the long haul. Some people might play it in short intervals, but if I can't dedicate a year or longer with a good amount of content it's really not for me. You are however right, the more people not paying are just taking money. This game isn't designed for the long haul. Although with a Micro Transaction shop, one could argue that it's exactly what they are aiming for. Micro Transactions are just another way to make profit and keep players in the game.

The GW2 dev team has commented on the failure of all the MMOs that have come along saying "we're going to make the WoW killer" because they develop their game to be the same size as WoW when it first released, not how it is now. The GW2 team has stated that their world will be bigger than any other MMO's was at release.

They're also planning expansion packs. No word on how many, but they will raise the level cap. GW fans think it'll be at least two expansions, since there are two other continents to revisit; and possibly up to four or five, because the main plot of GW2 deals with only one of the elder dragons.

They are definitely planning for the long haul; it just remains to be seen exactly how much will be there.