An open letter to Dan Dixon

[Tavajigen]

Dear Dan Dixon,

I'm Matteo from Italy and this is my first post in Steam's forums. Please excuse me for my poor english. :)

First of all I want to say that this game is really awesome. I'm still a noob in playing, but i like very much trying to do everything is possible in the game. One of the dream of my life is to be able, in the future, to write a sci-fi book, and maybe I'll use Universe Sandbox to elaborate new "star systems" where I'll set my story. :P

But

Please, explain to me the meaning of the two achievements "Startup Too Many" and "One Year". I know that some achievements in Universe Sandbox want to "prove" the attachment to the game, but I think that the others (Startup Kilo and One Month for example) are really enough to prove it.

I'm one of the "100% achievements maniac hunters", this is because when I buy a game I like to play it in all of its parts: all missions (primary and secondary), all secrets, all achievements. In my life I've collected some very difficult achievement, but in all of them I had to play to get them, not only waiting like in these two in Universe Sandbox. To get a difficult achievement I must play at my best, this is the sense of it in my opinion. I don't know if in your past you already played games for over 300 hours, here on Steam you can see that I have almost 300 hours in Fallout New Vegas + all the DLC and I have done everything in the game; how could I get over 8700 hours in Universe Sandbox? I have to play it for my entire life? There's no meaning for this, and if there is, please explain it to me. :P

Now I make to you a proposal: eliminate these two achievements. If you want you can put in the game others achievement, really difficult if you like, but concerning the way of play, and not the time of playing. :)

If you are in trouble with the few users that already got these two achievements, I can say that:

For "One Year": all the users that have it are cheaters, because until end of april 2012 noone could have unlocked this achievement.
For "Startup Too Many": the few that have unlocked it without cheats (but staying all day opening and closing the game) surely still miss One Year, and they'll miss it for a long time yet. So if you'll say that you'll eliminate both of them these users will be simply happy, trust me.

My letter maybe seems to be a critic to the game, but really, it isn't; if I could write in italian I could choose better my words and I could be "less direct". I like the game and because of this I'd like to see it "complete". In my opinion when a game developer chooses which achievements put in his game, he has to think also to gamers like me, that is really mad about getting 100% achievement. I call it "respect for the consumer", that is the base of commerce. :)

I wouldn't like an immediate answer from you; I'd like to know that you'll take some days to think at this matter, and then you'll explain me the fact, obviously if you'll want to do it. :D

Thank you for the patience in reading this long post, I'm really sorry for my english.

Greetings from Italy

Matteo

P.S.
The letter is for Dan Dixon, but obviously every user can take part in this thread. :)
Indeed I'd like also to know what other users think about this question.

[Michael1971]

Achievement "One Year"

An accurate simulation requires a lot of time.

[Tavajigen]

Achievement "One Year"

An accurate simulation requires a lot of time.


The game that I've played for the longest time in my life is surely Diablo II.

Doing an estimate I've played it for 3-4000 hours, divided in 4-5 years, and playing it for the most of the afternoon and of the evening (I was a student that didn't study so much :)).

How can I get 8700+ hours in this game? I have a work, a family, and sorry: I haven't the possibility to leave my computer on all day running Universe Sandbox, as someone is certainly doing to get the achievement.

So, I don't think to have the possibility to ever get this achievement in my entire life. I don't think that this is fair.

Why have I to cheat to get achievements on Steam? I don't want to do this.

[Dan Dixon]

These are all very fair points. I don't even have these acheivments. :) Turns out I'm not an "100% achievements maniac hunter".

I'm open to removing these two achievements. Any objections?

[Tavajigen]

These are all very fair points. I don't even have these acheivments. :) Turns out I'm not an "100% achievements maniac hunters".

I'm open to removing these two achievements. Any objections?


When yesterday I opened the forums and I saw that the developer of Universe Sandbox directly answered to gamers my face turned to: O___O

Because this is the first time in my life that I see a thing like this, that is a really devotion to own work and to the users of own product. I've never seen a game developer answering. :)

So thank you for the answer and for the helpfulness in making changes.

I really hope that all gamers will agree with this change.

(p.s. I'm helping my english with an online translator ;) )

[McDrewbs]

I don't see why they should be removed. Maybe include an achievement that takes less then a lifetime would be more appropriate, but removing them just because manic achievement hunters have to have all achievements and if they can't achieve them, must have them removed.

If your life is too busy to get the achievements, oh well, but that shouldn't make a difference as to whether the achievements are there or not.

Difficult achievements means something else to aim for when everything else is done.

[Tavajigen]

I don't see why they should be removed. Maybe include an achievement that takes less then a lifetime would be more appropriate, but removing them just because manic achievement hunters have to have all achievements and if they can't achieve them, must have them removed.

They shouldn't be removed, this is only a proposal. We could change them in something other, really difficult if you want, but not impossible like these.

If your life is too busy to get the achievements, oh well, but that shouldn't make a difference as to whether the achievements are there or not.

Lifes of all of us are too busy for these achievements, do you understand what's the meaning of 8700 hours of play in an only game?

Difficult achievements means something else to aim for when everything else is done.

I totally agree with you, but this is another issue: I'm not "complaining" about the difficulty of the achievements, I simply love difficult achievements. I'm talking about the meaning of these two. We can't get them proving our skill in playing, but only waiting.

A difficult achievement usually remains blocked until the gamer becomes very good in playing; only at that level the gamer could get it.

With these two achievements we haven't to prove our ability, we only have to wait with the game open for a lot of years.

Edit: now it's late here in Italy, so I go to bed. I'll answer tomorrow, goodnight. :)

[abort_user]

you can remove them. however, i just thought these were long term achievements. you shouldnt be able to get all the achievements all at once.

[Tavajigen]

you can remove them. however, i just thought these were long term achievements. you shouldnt be able to get all the achievements all at once.


Surely, indeed there are already other achievements for which we need to play for a long time. For example to get One Month we have to play for about 750 hours. If we play at Universe Sandbox for an hour every day we need 2 years to get it. :)

[pijankengur]

Universe Sandbox honestly has the best and worst achievements I've ever seen in video games.

Best? The Code, The Answer; two achievements that are just awesome.

Worst? Play for a year, Startup 10000 times.

I don't think removing them is the answer though, there are plenty of people who are likely working their way towards them and will be disappointed with the waste of effort should they be removed. Myself included.

[Tavajigen]

Universe Sandbox honestly has the best and worst achievements I've ever seen in video games.

Best? The Code, The Answer; two achievements that are just awesome.

I agree.

Worst? Play for a year, Startup 10000 times.

I don't think removing them is the answer though, there are plenty of people who are likely working their way towards them and will be disappointed with the waste of effort should they be removed. Myself included.

Are you "likely working" on them? LOL, so these achievements don't have any meaning for the game and the playing, as I said before.

A question for you: at this moment how many hours have you got in "likely working" at Universe Sandbox? And when did you buy the game?

[Vangkao]

If those two achievements are to be removed, then they should be removed with the Stellar Update that is in the pipe for this year. But they should be replaced with new achievements, something suitably hard to do but in a way that requires actual thinking. Perhaps creating the solar system from scratch? This makes me think of the great Carl Sagan quote: "If you want to make an apple pie, you must first create the Universe".

Another idea would be to create fictional simulations of worlds/solar systems. I've always had a fascination with Hal Clements' 'Mission of Gravity' and the planet Mesklin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesklin). While simulating the planet itself is a a bit out of the scope of US, simulating the 61 Cygni A system is a lot of fun.

Those are just two examples, I bet we could come up with some crazy hard ideas for replacement achievements if we think about it.

[Tavajigen]

If those two achievements are to be removed, then they should be removed with the Stellar Update that is in the pipe for this year. But they should be replaced with new achievements, something suitably hard to do but in a way that requires actual thinking. Perhaps creating the solar system from scratch? This makes me think of the great Carl Sagan quote: "If you want to make an apple pie, you must first create the Universe".

Another idea would be to create fictional simulations of worlds/solar systems. I've always had a fascination with Hal Clements' 'Mission of Gravity' and the planet Mesklin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesklin). While simulating the planet itself is a a bit out of the scope of US, simulating the 61 Cygni A system is a lot of fun.

Those are just two examples, I bet we could come up with some crazy hard ideas for replacement achievements if we think about it.


I totally agree with you.

Your ideas are great, because to get your two achievements we need to be skilful in gaming. :)

[Tzekelkan]

I also agree with their replacement with something else, that adds to the game, rather than just being there. I don't mind incredibly hard achievements, I probablywon't get them... but I think just requiring to have the game running for a long time is unimaginative.

Universe Sandbox is a very creative game, but for it to be a great game--just like anything that is great--all its parts must show equal effort and polish. Just like when you read a book; the story may be fantastic but you would still be in your right to complain if the pages weren't numbered.

[Dan Dixon]

Universe Sandbox is a very creative game, but for it to be a great game--just like anything that is great--all its parts must show equal effort and polish...

This is very fair criticism.

We're working on a major free update due out later this year and will be addressing the achievements at that time.

[Tavajigen]

This is very fair criticism.

We're working on a major free update due out later this year and will be addressing the achievements at that time.


Thank you, good work! ;)

[tacc]

The one year achievement shouldn't be removed since people are already "working" on it. How about just changing it to 6 months instead?

[Tavajigen]

The one year achievement shouldn't be removed since people are already "working" on it. How about just changing it to 6 months instead?


How about just changing in achievements where we can play to get them instead of "working"? ;)

[Uplinkpro]

To be fair I just got the Start up to many legitimately. It took forever even on my i7 With my SSD raid it took the game 4 Seconds to load x10000. That's not a stupid achievement just a time consuming one. The One year Deff needs to be changed or removed tho. Even the One Month seems a little Meh but I suppose I can run it in the BG for that long.

But I would also add that its not that eventually i might would not get the achievement US is fun i really like the game dan did a good job and I cant wait to see more. Its just not the only game I wanna spend the next year on. Changing this achievement will deff make the "itch" from not 100%-ing it go aways.

[ton de mo nai]

In my opinion, achievements in a sandbox style "game" is kind of pointless to begin with. The whole purpose of a sandbox is that the user is the one determining the objectives.

[MaltManMike]

First of all, Dan, thanks for making this cool game! I already gifted a copy to my brother-in-law and two of my friends bought copies as well. It's really impressive and it inspired me to do a bunch of research on all the odd rocks flying around our sun that I had never heard about before.

Back on topic, I vote to remove the one year achievement. There's no fun or satisfaction to it, it's just there. Also, think of all the wasted electricity. If you leave your system running all the time to contribute CPU cycles to charity or science, then great. Running a system for a year to get an achievement? Total up the wasted kWh (this is a full year of non-stop use, remember) by the decent handful of people that would actually bother with this and it should make you cringe. Change the achievement to something fun and it's win-win.

In the meantime, Dan, please specify either way whether or not you'll ditch this achievement. Saying it's likely to change later this year is quite vague and the CPUs are running right now...

Thanks,

Mike.

[jonathanmcleod]

This thread makes me embarrassed to be a PC gamer.

[Tavajigen]

This thread makes me embarrassed to be a PC gamer.

Why?

Ask to make a game perfect in all of its part is a typical will of pc-gamers.

[ton de mo nai]

Why?

Ask to make a game perfect in all of its part is a typical will of pc-gamers.

No it's not. Don't project your opinions onto me.

[Tavajigen]

No it's not. Don't project your opinions onto me.


Never wanted to do this.

He came in this thread speaking in that way without argue his opinion, so I simply answered him with my opinion.

Edit: my mistake of subject, thinked I was speaking with the same man. :)

[ton de mo nai]

Never wanted to do this.

You came in this thread speaking in that way without argue your opinion, so I simply answered you with my opinion.

You said that all PC gamers want to make the game perfect.
That is projecting your opinion onto all PC gamers, including myself.

Personally, I think the idea that you could make a game perfect, when each individual's idea of perfection is a matter of personal taste, is delusional.

Which is why I'm not the one suggesting a developer change their game just to cater to my irrational need for 100% completion on my entire library. Of course, the fact that I don't even have that irrational need helps to alleviate this problem.

[Tavajigen]

You said that all PC gamers want to make the game perfect.
That is projecting your opinion onto all PC gamers, including myself.

Personally, I think the idea that you could make a game perfect, when each individual's idea of perfection is a matter of personal taste, is delusional.

Which is why I'm not the one suggesting a developer change their game just to cater to my irrational need for 100% completion on my entire library. Of course, the fact that I don't even have that irrational need helps to alleviate this problem.


I said that "is a typical will of pc-gamers", I've never told that is always a will of all pc-gamers; those are really different things.

A developer, in my opinion, should have the wish to satisfy all of his consumers, and to do this the only way is developing his game perfectly, but perfectly in all of its parts, because, as you said, "perfection is a matter of personal taste".

In this forum there are a lot of suggestions to help the developing of the game (for example physical issues, sound, running problems). Mine is a suggestion exactly like the others.

If you and he are not interested to achievements there is no problem for me, obviously, but I can't understand why he felt the necessity to partecipate in this thread with that sentence, that was in my opinion arrogant, because at my eyes it sounds like "I'm a pc-gamer better then you".

As you said: what is perfect for you maybe is not perfect for others, so what's your problem if I ask for a development in this part of the game?

Edit: I edited my last post, because I made a mistake of subject, sorry.

[Friendliest]

I'm open to removing these two achievements. Any objections?

I, for one, am fine with them staying, as curiosities if nothing else, as well as due to the overriding principle that I really don't like functionality -- however trivial -- being removed after the fact from software I've purchased. (That being said, I think removing them at this point might basically amount to not one but two instances of poor judgment: adding them in the first place, then taking them out! ;) Two wrongs don't make a right!)

One of my favorite things about this program and others like it is the mind-expanding potential of getting people to really appreciate thinking in astronomical terms, and these achievements (as well as the others which ramp-up to them) do just that: make you realize "how long, really, is a year?", and "how many, really, is 10,000?"


It doesn't seem like they are causing any harm, right? Do we dare to delve into the whole "earth's non-renewable resources being sapped by achievement hunters leaving their PCs on for one year" issue? If it wasn't for the fact that, by virtue of them owning/using this software in the first place, users who would post in this forum are relatively large-scale thinkers, I would say "no", but as it is... ;) well, I'll leave it up to someone else to initiate that debate.

re: the "100 percenters", it's the potential start of a self-perpetuating cycle of regression, not to mention a distinctly modern state of affairs that, when people can't attain a standard, we lower the standard. I feel somewhat sympathetic for the people who won't ever be able to get these achievements for one reason or other, but how should that really be any different from "ridiculous" achievements in other games, which might be purely skill based, like "kill 100 enemies in a row without dying", or the misc extreme SMB achievements, etc. Those achievements stay in, and they are probably accomplishments of considerable pride and distinction for those who have earned them. ;) Not that there aren't still some people who complain that they are "impossible" and should be removed, but ... in these cases I doubt a developer, or one who has earned the achievements has ever responded with anything but "you're joking, right?"

On to the "clever" ways these can be obtained, it reminds me of another game I used to play, where the developers basically said "if you submit a hacked score to the leaderboard, we won't remove it, because it demonstrates ingenuity as well as a decent amount of technical ability". As long as everyone knew of this policy when looking at the leaderboard, things weren't really unfair ... just two classes of scores, those with obvious "asterisk" and those without. Similarly, if everyone was made aware of the OP's excellent point that the 1-yr achievement isn't even legitimately do-able until a date that is still in the future, it becomes pretty clear when looking at steam users achievements who has got it legitimately and who has not.

For my part, I see "Startup Too Many" as a largely trivial challenge in the domain of macros/scripting, and "One Year" to be a form of incentive to come up with an idea/sim that I would actually like to see run for one year!

...which in a roundabout way leads me to my main reason for being in this forum...

As it appears is being discussed in another thread, I want to express my disappointment in how very many simulations halt with errors, and to hope this situation will be improved upon.

(Only "cross-mentioning" this subject because the developer is actually reading this thread, but am not proceeding to the other one (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2299666) to discuss the subject in more detail. TY!)

[Tavajigen]

(That being said, I think removing them at this point might basically amount to not one but two instances of poor judgment: adding them in the first place, then taking them out! Two wrongs don't make a right!)

Sorry, why?

In every game there are problems and developers resolve them. Here is the same thing.

make you realize "how long, really, is a year?", and "how many, really, is 10,000?"

For first question I can understand your point of view, but I don't share it, because there can be other methods to do that, methods where we MUST play the game and not where we can only wait. For the second question: LOL

re: the "100 percenters", it's the potential start of a self-perpetuating cycle of regression, not to mention a distinctly modern state of affairs that, when people can't attain a standard, we lower the standard. I feel somewhat sympathetic for the people who won't ever be able to get these achievements for one reason or other, but how should that really be any different from "ridiculous" achievements in other games, which might be purely skill based, like "kill 100 enemies in a row without dying", or the misc extreme SMB achievements, etc. Those achievements stay in, and they are probably accomplishments of considerable pride and distinction for those who have earned them. ;) Not that there aren't still some people who complain that they are "impossible" and should be removed, but ... in these cases I doubt a developer, or one who has earned the achievements has ever responded with anything but "you're joking, right?"

I think that my thread has been misunderstood, or maybe I didn't explain well my point of view.

The point isn't the difficulty of the 2 achievements, the point is the meaning of them.

I'm not a noob in achievements, I've already collected achievements really hard (really really) in other games, I like hard achievements, because to get them we need to play the game very well, we need to be pro.

My suggestion is NOT to make new easy achievements, my suggestion is to remove those 2, then if Dan Dixon wants he can add other achievements, really hard too, no problems for me, but please with the necessity to play to get them, and not only wait. This is my idea.

So please, don't continue OT discussions. :)

For my part, I see "Startup Too Many" as a largely trivial challenge in the domain of macros/scripting

Sorry, I didn't know that Universe Sandbox was a game of scripting, if I knew it maybe I didn't bought it.

Can you see the non-sense of the thing? Why have I to do a macros/scripting to take this achievement? Universe Sandbox is a game relating Universe, not computer science.

[Chrissd21]

Weren't achievements added because some manic achievement hunters didn't feel the game was worth buying since they weren't achieving anything? And now manic achievement hunters want the long term achievements removed since they will take longer to get?
Thread of the week. ^ ^

How about just changing in achievements where we can play to get them instead of "working"? ;)

How about just playing the game instead of working for achievements? :P It's a simulation

Can you see the non-sense of the thing? Why have I to do a macros/scripting to take this achievement? Universe Sandbox is a game relating Universe, not computer science.

It's listed under simulation, you want it to be CoD, and this person is using high school computer knowledge in order to gain those achievements without running the simulation. In other words, they're doing the same thing you are but in a different fashion. You can't do them so you want them removed, this person can't do them but that's not a good enough answer so he's finding a different way to do them. I like his way better. :P

[Tavajigen]

Chrissd21, I think that I won't reply no more to the same things, just read my past posts and you'll find the answers. :)

[Dan Dixon]

It's certainly interesting to see the variety of opinions on this topic.

Here's what I wrote (http://universesandbox.com/forum/index.php/topic,3419.msg33075.html#msg33075) a few months ago on my forums about the achievements:


"The achievements are not as interesting as they could be.
...
The experience of manipulating reality is the reward of the game, not the achievements."

That said, we'll be adding more interesting achievements in the next major update (and be making a decision about what to do about the issues brought up in this thread).

[Tavajigen]

It's certainly interesting to see the variety of opinions on this topic.

Here's what I wrote (http://universesandbox.com/forum/index.php/topic,3419.msg33075.html#msg33075) a few months ago on my forums about the achievements:



That said, we'll be adding more interesting achievements in the next major update (and be making a decision about what to do about the issues brought up in this thread).


Thank you for the link and for the clarification, I'll follow the discussion there too. :)

[derk]

just see it as an achievement in the bank, in some time, you will be rewarded, but its in the make :D

and nao, we all noe thats just a joke right ? :D

[Austin007]

Great feedback in this thread for sure, thanks for visiting Dan, look forward to seeing the new update.
PS you should have a feedback submission from me today from the in-game submit form.