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View Full Version : Unlocks Banned / Allowed and Reasoning


ungulateman
03-09-2012, 12:42 AM
I respect CrashSite's attempt at the reasoning behind weapon bans, but I wanted to add my own perspective to why weapons are banned in competitive TF2.

Scout

Limited to 2.

Force-a-Nature: Inferior to the Scattergun. Knockback is annoying but not dangerous, long reload leaves the Scout vulnerable. Advanced mobility is situational but worth leaving in for interesting plays (running a Scout onto the crates on Gran mid for example). Allowed.

Shortstop: Gives the Scout the ability to fight effectively at medium range, where he can strike with unavoidable hitscan and dodge enemy projectiles. The now-slow reload is a non-issue with the Scout's dodging ability and a team to assist him. Banned.

Soda Popper: Easy instant-kill capabilities, messes up Scout vs Scout fights, makes Medic picks incredibly easy. Rewards the Scout for running around rather than fighting. Banned.

Bonk! Atomic Punch: Allows players to either waste six shots then escape, or get behind enemy lines and force the enemy team to either out-DM in 1v1 (and lose the round if they lose) or lose all their momentum by sending two players back. Banned.

Crit-a-Cola: Insta-kills, although not as easy as the Soda Popper. Still makes ambushes too dangerous. Banned.

Mad Milk: Can easily shut down or facilitate a push, at the cost of a Pistol. Banned.

Winger: Since it's completely inferior to the Pistol, there isn't a reason to include it. Banned, but it wouldn't see use if it was allowed anyway.

Sandman: Stun basically means a free kill on whoever it hits. Game-changer if it hits the Medic or Demoman. Banned.

Holy Mackerel: Almost a reskin, no real combat changes. Allowed.

Boston Basher: This varies, but those who ban it see it as a crutch if a team loses their heavies at mid and still wants to build Uber. Those who allow it see it as a way of putting Scouts on par with the heavies with regards to Uber build. Both banned and allowed depending on league. Currently allowed in the league I play in.

Sun-on-a-Stick: It's so pointless I forgot about it until now. No reason to use it.

Fan 'O War: Useless because you might as well meatshot, frustrating because being hit forces defensive play just in case. Banned.

Atomizer: Reverses the Scout/Soldier matchup from 40/60 to 60/40. Complete upgrade to boot. Banned.

Wrap Assassin: A hit basically guarantees a win in Scout DM, and hitting the Medic puts serious pressure on the enemy team. Banned.

Soldier

Limited to 2.

Direct Hit: Varies, generally banned for one-hitting light classes and punishing divebombs. Makes airshots much easier as well. Small splash makes spam ineffective on top of that.

Rocket Jumper: In its current state, the vulnerabilities make it pointless, and even with Sticky-Jumper style stats, it'd still be underpowered except for rocket-jumping-Scout shenanigans with the Pain Train, in which case it's just annoying.

Black Box: Inferior to the stock Rocket Launcher, in addition to being frustrating for the Medic who gets less protection. Banned in most places.

Cow Mangler 5000: The additional rocket makes divebombers too dangerous, and the charged shot has the capability of one-shotting unlucky light classes or even the Medic at close range. It's also needlessly complex. Banned.

Liberty Launcher: Completely messes up the Scout/Soldier relationship, on the same level as the Atomizer. Makes airshots easier but is otherwise less skill-requiring. Banned.

Gunboats: Varies, but those who ban it see it as making the Soldier too good at divebombing, as well as making the Soldier more one-dimensional (either he's jumping you and he's a threat or he's not and he isn't, unlike a Shotgun Soldier).

Buff Banner: Encourages slow play, but is also nearly as big as an Ubercharge when used. Makes losing the Medic not as big of a deal. Banned.

Battalion's Backup: Rewards the Soldier for failing, nullifies the Kritzkrieg, is a miniature Uber in and of itself. Banned.

Righteous Bison: Piercing punishes the Medic for hiding behind his pocket and forces a bad move either way (stay behind pocket - eat lasers, move away - eat hitscan). Banned.

Reserve Shooter: Screws over jumping Scouts, is incredibly buggy. Banned.

Mantreads: Makes divebombing ridiculously easy thanks to the next-to-no knockback he receives, and is similar to the Gunboats at making the Soldier one-dimensional. Probably banned but I haven't checked.

Equalizer: Varies, but those who ban it see it as a crutch for Soldiers who can't manage health or get to mid properly.

Pain Train: Varies, but the extra cap rate makes fighting cappers a guessing game between "is that a Pain Train user or a Scout?" until they get spotted. Limited to 1 in the league I play in.

Half-Zatoichi: Cripples the Soldier if he uses it badly, makes injuring him worthless if you can't kill him, encouraging defensive play. Banned.

Market Gardener: Varies. Instant kills, even if they are insanely hard, and again, makes divebombers too effective; but on the other hand, it's not the Equalizer, and it's incredibly enjoyable for everyone involved to see someone get a Medic pick with it.

Disciplinary Action: Lets you whip a Heavy to mid, basically being the GRU without health drain at the cost of -25% melee damage. Banned.

Pyro

Limited to 2.

Backburner: Makes his main role less effective, and some maps make it incredibly hard to counter him ambushing the Medic and killing him with it (under the bridge on Badlands). Banned.

Degreaser: Removes the ability to weapon-heckle the Pyro as Scout or Soldier at what is pretty much no cost. Banned.

Phlogistonator: Removes the Pyro's most useful, skill-requiring utility for crits he'll never get. Banned.

Flare Gun: Forces the enemy Medic to play defensively, screws over Scouts, puts a lot of pressure on the enemy Medic with good aim. Some leagues ban it, others don't.

Detonator: Basically the Flare Gun but with more emphasis on pressure and less on DM power. Banned.

Reserve Shooter: See Soldier. Except Pyro gets the airblast. Banned.

Manmelter: Basically the Flare Gun except with less aim required and more uselessness. Banned.

Axtinguisher: Instant kills, even if they are hard to do, detracts from the Pyro's supportive role. Banned.

Homewrecker: Somehow I don't think you're going to see a Spy sap anything in competitive play, or a Pyro vs Engineer matchup. Banned.

Powerjack: Makes injuring the Pyro useless if he kills you, encouraging defensive play. Banned.

Back Scratcher: Punishes the Medic, encourages lonewolf play. Banned.

Sharpened Volcano Fragment: Very much a "why do we need this" weapon. The Pyro has every other slot for igniting people. Banned.

Third Degree: Punishes the Medic for healing and the pocket for being healed, isn't really necessary anyway. Banned.

Demoman

Limited to 1. 2 Demomen can cover each other with stickies and layer traps, making the game much slower and less fun.

Loch-n-Load: One-shotting light classes, reduced spam capabilities, easier to direct hit with so less skill required. Banned.

Ali Baba's Wee Booties: Replacing grenades with extra health is making your team less effective and reduces the overall skill level. 300 HP Demomen are also annoying to kill. Banned.

Scottish Resistance: Slows the game down and reduces the Demoman's combat effectiveness. Banned.

Sticky Jumper: Removing your combat cpaabilities in order to divebomb the enemy Medic with grenades? Both unfun, ineffective, and more effective with the stock. Banned.

Chargin' Targe: Replacing your stickies with anything is making your team less effective and reduces the overall skill level. Banned.

Splendid Screen: See Chargin' Targe.

Pretty much all of the Demoman melees: Extra melee range on the Demoman makes his close range weakness less noticeable, and he doesn't need less weaknesses. Ones with health penalties make sticky jumping less useful, while the Persian Persuader discourages him from spamming. Pretty much all banned from my knowledge.

Ullapool Caber: Instant-kills at close range are ridiculous on the Demoman, and being able to divebomb the Medic with one is utterly so. Banned.

Heavy

Limited to 1. Heavy slows down the game tremendously and has a low skill ceiling, not to mention his habit of making the game less fun for the most part.

Natascha: Slowdown, get this, slows the game down. Amazing, right? Banned.

Brass Beast: Makes the heavy even more stupidly slow and removes any remaining skill he had regarding dodging. Banned.

Tomislav: I don't know who thought making the heavy immune to ambushing or capable of ambushing himself was a good idea. He can already do a good job with the stock thanks to its fast spin-up time, I know from personal experience. Banned with the fire of a thousand suns.

Sandvich: Generally allowed, thanks to its new nerf and the fact that it makes him better at something he's supposed to be good at rather than eliminating a class weakness. Airviches also raise his skill ceiling.

Buffalo Steak Sandvich: Mobility on the Heavy. Hmm. Banned.

Dalokohs Bar: Not as useful as the Sandvich; I think it's allowed by some leagues, just never used.

Family Business: Boring +clip -damage weapon which adds nothing to the game. Banned.

KGB: Generally allowed because Heavies don't get melee kills in comp, ever.

Warrior's Spirit: Downgrade because the Heavy is never going to melee anyone. Also 2-hits Medics, as minor as that is compared to its uselessness. Banned.

GRU: Mobility on the Heavy. Hmm. Banned.

FoS: Excessive amount of tanking power, being what amounts to 630 HP of fat waddling around - that's enough to eat an entire clip of stickies from medium range or four point-blank rockets. Banned.

Eviction Notice: Serves absolutely no purpose, as well as inferior to the Fists. Possibly allowed, but you're never going to see it.

Engineer

Limited to 2. May be limited to 1 in the future, especially if Gunslinger is allowed.

Frontier Justice: Instant-kills which can be quite easily hidden, on a class normally off-classed from one with good Shotgun aim. Sentry kills are rare, but they assist fairly often and get destroyed very quickly. Banned.

Widowmaker: Encourages the Engineer to go run off Shotgunning people rather than defend the final point. Banned.

Pomson: Put simply, Ubercharge drain is the worst idea Valve has ever implemented. The only things that come close are slowdown and stun, and both of those got nerfed hard shortly after release, and are still terrible ideas. Banned.

Wrangler: Pretty much requires an entire Uber to destroy, thus letting the other team use their Uber, counterattack, get Uber advantage, and begin pushing back. Not to mention how horribly it slows the game down. Banned with the fire of a thousand suns.

Short Circuit: Not sure, may be banned simply for letting the Engineer tank too effectively; generally slows the game down.

Gunslinger: Hoo boy. Long story short, the Mini-Sentry requires too much firepower to take down, makes zoning Scouts very easy, is bugged on Badlands (the window that can be shot through can be shot through by a Mini-Sentry, making it insanely hard to deal with) and requires less skill than running a Scout. It's one of the borderline unlocks that is banned thanks to the current Engineer limit of 2; it'd probably be balanced with Engineer limit 1. We'll see, I hope it gets changed and allowed.

Jag: Boring straight upgrade which doesn't really accomplish anything. No reason to include or exclude it, so banned.

Southern Hospitality: See Jag.

Eureka Effect: Removes one of the more skill-indexed parts of the Engineer in exchange for a rather pointless teleport, given the Engineer is spending his time on the last point basically exclusively. Banned.

Medic

Limited to 1, what with being the most important class in the game.

Blutsauger: Generally allowed, although rarely used because health regen is better.

Crusader's Crossbow: Usually allowed because it expands on the Medic's supportive role.

Overdose: I must admit I haven't checked but it may be banned for allowing the Medic to escape more easily for little cost. It's allowed where I play, but that's because every Medic weapon except the Vita-Saw is.

Kritzkrieg: Yeah, this thing is utterly amazing balance-wise. Allowed with the fire of a thousand suns.

Quick-Fix: Lower skill ceiling because it always charges at max rate, no overheal, makes Scouts terrifying and other classes not. Banned.

Ubersaw: Allowed because it gives the Medic something exciting to do at an appropriate risk. Clutch Ubersaws comboing into fast Ubercharges are amazing things to perform, play against and watch.

Amputator: Allowed for the set bonus, basically. The taunt is next-to-useless anyway, so its straight upgrade status isn't a big deal.

Vita-Saw: 20% Uber advantage after dying is a huge deal. One of the only Medic weapons banned.

Solemn Vow: Generally banned because it makes the Medic capable of doing everyone elses' job, keeping track of damage. It also doesn't let you do clutch Ubersaws. ;)

Sniper

Limited to 1 in most places because more than one forces the enemy Medic to spend the entire damn game hiding from both of them.

Huntsman: Yeah, no. Somehow allowed where I play, but banned anywhere remotely serious.

Sydney Sleeper: Skill ceilings are so terrible aren't they? Banned.

Bazaar Bargain: It's basically pointless because even amazing Snipers won't live long enough to get the bonus. Not sure if it's banned.

Machina: Penetrates Ubercharges (aka can shoot people standing behind an Ubered person), which violates the concept of the Ubercharge. Also has a lower skill ceiling. Banned.

Jarate: Varies, often banned for being a throwable mini-Kritzkrieg at little cost. Imagine a slightly less overpowered Mad Milk on a less flexible class.

Razorback: Haha, no. Banned.

Darwin's Danger Shield: I admit I don't know, but it's one of those odd weapons that isn't very interesting so there's little reason to allow or disallow it.

Cozy Camper: Say goodbye to your skill ceiling, chucklenuts. No scope shake it not a good idea, basically. Also availability issues right now.

Tribalman's Shiv: Pointless. Probably banned.

Bushwacka: Crazily OP with Jarate, pointless otherwise. Usually banned.

Shahansah: +stat -stat. Fascinating. Banned.

Spy

Limited to 1 because this isn't a pub. >_>

Ambassador: Allowed as far as I know, but some places may ban it for making Spy picks too easy (Sniper has to scope and backstabs require stealth).

L'etranger: +stat -stat. Fascinating. Banned from what I remember.

Enforcer: I don't need to explain this one. Banned.

Diamondback: There isn't anything to sap assuming people are being even remotely serious. Probably banned.

Cloak and Dagger: Makes back-caps rather easy, but it's good for actual Spying on the enemy team and appropriately timed picks. Banned here, allowed some places.

Dead Ringer: The Spy doesn't need a deflector shield and it doesn't fool people anyway. Banned.

Your Eternal Reward: External communication makes it next to useless, kinda buggy. Banned.

Kunai: The Spy's meant to get his valuable kill (usually Medic, possibly Demoman) and die, pretty much, the Kunai makes it harder to get the initial kill and easier to escape. Banned IIRC.

Big Earner: +stat -stat. Fascinating. Banned.

I probably missed some really obscure weapons, feel free to tell me.

CrashSite
03-09-2012, 01:51 AM
Takes longer that you think <3

Some good reasons here.

Vixori
03-09-2012, 02:57 AM
Market Gardener: Instant kills, even if they are insanely hard, and again, makes divebombers too effective. Banned.

You can't be serious. (http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Sniper_rifle)

ungulateman
03-09-2012, 03:55 AM
You can't be serious. (http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Sniper_rifle)

The Sniper gets an exemption because:

- It's hitscan, meaning going around a corner or behind an object protects the Medic.
- It's very difficult to hit with, especially on a competent Medic.
- The Sniper has limited mobility, meaning he can't chase the Medic like the Scout or Soldier can.
- The pocket can stand in the way of the Sniper, preventing the Medic from dying.
- The Sniper is going to lose, badly, in direct combat against a Scout or Soldier, unlike a Soldier.
- It requires you to use a Sniper rather than a Scout, rather than not use an Equalizer.

There's also the fact that Valve clearly designed the game around the Sniper and Spy being the classes intended to one-hit kill enemies.

my_fist
03-09-2012, 05:00 AM
Market gardener not banned in NA :)

ungulateman
03-09-2012, 06:07 AM
My banlist is a kind of bizarre mishmash of AsiaFortress, OzFortress and the various US leagues because I can't remember who bans what and most leagues ban most things.

Naturally, the leagues that allow Equalizer tend to allow the Market Gardener because it isn't the Equalizer; not to mention it's one of the most hilarious ways to get a Medic pick.

Forsaken one
03-09-2012, 08:47 AM
Interesting how the mentality up to engi at least seems to be "ban broken and overpowered" (which is good) but also "ban anything that seems/is less viable than the stock counterpart". Isn't that quite horribly counterproductive for figuring out new, previously unorthodox or unseen tactics that'd bring more variety to the 6vs6 scene?

Also, hoping you'll write from the rest of the classes in the near future!

DoubleGale
03-09-2012, 09:14 AM
If this is a typical ban list, I've lost faith in the intelligence of the people managing the competitive leagues. Either just make it stock only, or allow all but the weapons that would be severely broken. (Enforcer, Machina, Pomson, ect.)

Cow Mangler, Direct Hit, Bonk!, Flare Gun, Short Circuit...

Just... what?

For one, this is supposed to be competitive play. So because a weapon encourages someone to play in a less helpful way is not a valid excuse to ban it. These are (hopefully) intelligent enough people to make good decisions without the ban list telling them what to do, and if they're not they deserve to lose anyways. Direct Hit and Cow Mangler banned for being able to one-shot? Not like the Scout can kill you from behind before you can react, as well as excelling at flanking. But oh, it takes two shots so obviously there's a big difference.

CptCombatToast
03-09-2012, 09:24 AM
If this is a typical ban list, I've lost faith in the intelligence of the people managing the competitive leagues. Either just make it stock only, or allow all but the weapons that would be severely broken. (Enforcer, Machina, Pomson, ect.)

Cow Mangler, Direct Hit, Bonk!, Flare Gun, Short Circuit...

Just... what?

For one, this is supposed to be competitive play. So because a weapon encourages someone to play in a less helpful way is not a valid excuse to ban it. These are (hopefully) intelligent enough people to make good decisions without the ban list telling them what to do, and if they're not they deserve to lose anyways. Direct Hit and Cow Mangler banned for being able to one-shot? Not like the Scout can kill you from behind before you can react, as well as excelling at flanking. But oh, it takes two shots so obviously there's a big difference.
As has bin stated many times before ETF2L uses vanilla and any non vanilla league worth mentioning uses the whitelist approach (item is by default not aloud unless it does something to benefit the game).

IE items are not banned they are simply allowed on a case by case basis.

hawk18727
03-09-2012, 09:31 AM
Five minutes of laughing are capable of increasing the natural life span by a minute. Thanks for giving me an hour to think about all my great accomplishments when i'll be a gloomy old-man.

Seriously though, this thread is ridiculous. Ban a spy class, 'cause he can insta-kill, ban a medic class, 'cause he can go invulnerable, see? INVULNERABLE. Demos should take a flight off with their two-shot kill grenade launchers and an insta-kill sticky traps.

CptCombatToast
03-09-2012, 10:22 AM
Seriously though, this thread is ridiculous. Ban a spy class, 'cause he can insta-kill, ban a medic class, 'cause he can go invulnerable, see? INVULNERABLE. Demos should take a flight off with their two-shot kill grenade launchers and an insta-kill sticky traps.

Classes have there own jobs and rolls. Unlocks should not change these or make them more effective at these rolls. An example of a good unlock would be kritzkreig. It does not change the class's roll nor does it make the class more powerful while offering a different playstyle.

kent.spec
03-09-2012, 11:30 AM
From what I've seen every non-standard class has nearly everything banned even if they're balanced side grades. The standard classes have only they're unbalanced weapons banned. Basically that list effectively says "If you go a non-standard class you aren't allowed to use anything but stock, but if you go standard you can have this shiny crate of weapons to possibly switch to"

Seriously the Flaregun? You might as well be saying Pyro is banned because of afterburn.

ungulateman
03-09-2012, 12:40 PM
From what I've seen every non-standard class has nearly everything banned even if they're balanced side grades. The standard classes have only they're unbalanced weapons banned. Basically that list effectively says "If you go a non-standard class you aren't allowed to use anything but stock, but if you go standard you can have this shiny crate of weapons to possibly switch to"

Seriously the Flaregun? You might as well be saying Pyro is banned because of afterburn.

What balanced side-grades? The only real sidegrade at the competitive level is the Kritzkrieg, which I haven't got to.

Two flares basically guarantee a Medic kill (30 + 90 + afterburn which is only partially countered by regen) or at least force the Medic back to a health kit, making it absurdly effective for zoning the enemy team. I believe some leagues allow it, but not the ones I'm familiar with.

As for the "Scouts insta-kill", you at least have a chance to react to a Scout, even if they meatshot you, which the Direct Hit and similar weapons don't allow.

Sergis
03-09-2012, 12:52 PM
the pyro has to hit those two flares first. and they are two. and they are ♥♥♥♥ing flares for ♥♥♥♥s sake. so much for the love of skill.

DoubleGale
03-09-2012, 01:13 PM
What balanced side-grades? The only real sidegrade at the competitive level is the Kritzkrieg, which I haven't got to.

Two flares basically guarantee a Medic kill (30 + 90 + afterburn which is only partially countered by regen) or at least force the Medic back to a health kit, making it absurdly effective for zoning the enemy team. I believe some leagues allow it, but not the ones I'm familiar with.

As for the "Scouts insta-kill", you at least have a chance to react to a Scout, even if they meatshot you, which the Direct Hit and similar weapons don't allow.

Unless my math is wrong, the Scout can deal up to 210 damage in 1.25 seconds. Hope you got some pretty damn fast reflexes. And even if you do, the first shot will likely be enough to send you on retreat.

CptCombatToast
03-09-2012, 02:13 PM
All packs that come out during the season are automatically banned. Additionally, all sets are banned. If you complete one, intentionally or not, the punishment will be the same as using a banned weapon. The bans are as follows:

Soda Popper
Bonk
Mad Milk
Sandman
Atomizer
Liberty Launcher
Cow Mangler
Reserve Shooter
Righteous Bison
Batalions Backup
Disciplinary Action
Loch n Load
Persian Persuader
Ullapool Caber
Natascha
Brass Beast
Tomislav
Buffalo Steak Sandvich
Sandvich
Gloves of Running Urgently
Fists of Steel
Wrangler
Short Circuit
Gunslinger
Frontier Justice
Jag
Vita-Saw
Solemn Vow
Sydney Sleeper
Machina
Jarate
Enforcer

The class restrictions are:

2 Scouts
2 Soldiers
2 Pyros
1 Demoman
1 Heavy
2 Engineers
1 Medic
2 Snipers
2 Spy

http://esea.net/index.php?s=content&d=league_rules_tf2

ChaoSynergy
03-09-2012, 08:57 PM
>Nearly every unlock is banned

Why the ♥♥♥♥ don't they just say "No, only stock is allowed with the exception of the Kritzkrieg and Ubersaw." I mean it seems like it would save them the headaches of deciding whether or not a weapon should be allowed.

shinquickman
03-09-2012, 09:25 PM
>Nearly every unlock is banned

Why the ♥♥♥♥ don't they just say "No, only stock is allowed with the exception of the Kritzkrieg and Ubersaw." I mean it seems like it would save them the headaches of deciding whether or not a weapon should be allowed.Europe Whitelists the unlocks. That means ALL unlocks are banned until approved.

The US bans whatever they deem OP/game-slowing/buggy/released during season, which just happens to be about all the unlocks.

Forsaken one
03-12-2012, 12:54 PM
Also, just realized you forgot the candy cane

ArchDragon97
03-12-2012, 01:06 PM
"Professional" players are a load of wimps.
Seriously, how can you say you play the game professionally when half the weapons are banned and your screaming wahh this is to powerful, and cant be asked to come up with a solution?

Trotim
03-12-2012, 01:10 PM
The only solution for overpowered and broken items is to ban them which is exactly what the pro leagues do.

TheGameMage
03-12-2012, 01:40 PM
"Professional" players are a load of wimps.
Seriously, how can you say you play the game professionally when half the weapons are banned and your screaming wahh this is to powerful, and cant be asked to come up with a solution?

If Valve isn't going to take care of things, and they most likely won't, then it is up to the players to solve their problems.

That is exactly what we do; solve our problems.

Crespo_PL
03-12-2012, 03:38 PM
>Nearly every unlock is banned

Why the ♥♥♥♥ don't they just say "No, only stock is allowed with the exception of the Kritzkrieg and Ubersaw." I mean it seems like it would save them the headaches of deciding whether or not a weapon should be allowed.

believe it or not, unlocks are actually fun, even to comp people.

Sidegrades are interesting and do spice things up.

The problem, you see, is that valve is absolutely incapable of making any (ever since the flaregun/kritz).

The garbage we have today is mostly either useless, downsides outweight the bonuses or completely broken in the hands of non brain-dead people.

gomixy
03-12-2012, 04:45 PM
"Professional" players are a load of wimps.
Seriously, how can you say you play the game professionally when half the weapons are banned and your screaming wahh this is to powerful, and cant be asked to come up with a solution?

Because seeing a team composed of

Milkman scouts
Regular + equalizer sollys
Degreaser + Insert Meelee upgrade here
Stock demoman :)
TomislavGru heavies
Wrangler Engis
Sniper is roughly balanced regardless of weapons
Medic has some interesting choices, so I cant say anything
Dr.Enforcicle spies

Would be really fun to play against wouldnt it?

PolyCement
03-14-2012, 05:35 PM
Sandvich: Generally allowed, thanks to its new nerf and the fact that it makes him better at something he's supposed to be good at rather than eliminating a class weakness. Airviches also raise his skill ceiling.

AWW YISS

Davidftw
03-14-2012, 08:07 PM
The only solution for overpowered and broken items is to ban them which is exactly what the pro leagues do.

How exactly are you going to instantly make a weapon not OP? If there is a nerf to a weapon (say they make it only take one rocket to take down a minisentry) then that unlock would be reevaluated.

What was seen with the minisentry was that teams on lower levels of comp play were running a full-time engineer and pretty much making the game hell for the opposing scouts. It could greatly diminish the role of the scouts, and overall slow the entire game down.

Also, I would much rather be beaten by a team that is comprised of stock players then a team consistently running Tomigruwich heavy, Soda Popper scout, Dr. Enforcicle spy, 2 gunslinger engies, and a medic. Fact is that it takes more skill to win using stock weapons, and many of the unlocks are straight upgrades or crutches.

Lets talk gunslinger: You get 2 mini-sentries without needing to worry about metal. You also get +25 health. The downside? You can't make level 3 sentries. Fact is that in comp play, the inability to build level three sentries was found to be a very minor drawback, as it only really was important at last point situations, where the engy could easily just switch between wrenches to get that level three up, or have the other scout or the roamer go as a normal engy. The fact is with the gunslnger engy, you could much easier set up a forward base as well, as soon as a teammate respawned, they could instantly be sent back to the point they were defending. Lets say they were pushing last, well if they have a level 3 teleporter on point 3,it makes it near impossible for the enemy team to push out, once they kill off enough players to push out, more players will have respawned and been whisked back to the point ready to defend. I remember one match I watched in which this cycle went on for literally 10-20 minutes, with the attacking team repeatedly attacking last only to be near-wiped, then end up not losing 3rd because one of their scouts had set up a teleporter. If you don't see why this is ridicules, then I don't think you need to argue this.

TLDR: Unlocks are banned because they are either OP, or adds a dynamic to the game that seriously impacts the skill/strategy in such a way that makes the experience less fun and skill-based.

Also, do think there are some unlocks that should be allowed, both the flaregun and the Kritz comes to mind, but the fact is that most fail to add anything other then unfair deaths and cheap-seeming deaths.

Izzy7s7
04-01-2012, 11:23 PM
I'm assuming OP would ban the bonesaw too because it encourages the medic to be unhelpful to his team by not using a straight upgrade?

ungulateman
04-02-2012, 12:07 AM
I'm assuming OP would ban the bonesaw too because it encourages the medic to be unhelpful to his team by not using a straight upgrade?

I don't make the banlists.

More relevantly, the Bonesaw isn't banned.

Even more relevantly, the Ubersaw is allowed where other weapons aren't because it makes the game more fun for the Medic, rewards aggressive play and isn't a huge change, unlike most unlocks.

Argeon
04-03-2012, 11:15 PM
So basically, anything that isn't vanilla is usually banned...

ungulateman
04-04-2012, 03:30 AM
Most unlocks don't really add anything interesting to the game. A lot tend to slow it down or make it less fun.

If every unlock was as balanced as the Kritzkrieg (or the Flare Gun depending on which region you're looking at) they'd all be allowed.

Angry Lumpsters
04-05-2012, 02:20 PM
To all of you saying comp players can't adapt; do you not realise why the videos of matches being played at high levels look so ridiculously exciting? BECAUSE it's vanilla. In comp, when a Soldier's pocket Medic dies, he's likely to try and fight. If he had the equalizer, he could just rocket jump and sprint away.

Same for Pyros. To play Pyro at that level you need to be ridiculously good- imagine a rocketjumping Pyro jumping over and DG/Axing the Medic in over a second. Failing that, just pop flares at him.
Comp is vanilla for a reason. Once you're /that/ good at the game, the unlocks only imbalance the game, or rely on luck and gimmicks.

sidney_strode
04-07-2012, 09:43 PM
Classes have there own jobs and rolls. Unlocks should not change these or make them more effective at these rolls. An example of a good unlock would be kritzkreig. It does not change the class's roll nor does it make the class more powerful while offering a different playstyle.

Like the Flare Gun? That's a good examp...oh wait no, apparently it's not.



Two flares basically guarantee a Medic kill (30 + 90 + afterburn which is only partially countered by regen) or at least force the Medic back to a health kit, making it absurdly effective for zoning the enemy team. I believe some leagues allow it, but not the ones I'm familiar with.


I never knew Medics just stand still and take flares to the face (the more you know!). Also, the Flare Gun has a 2 second firing interval- most classes can get a kill on a 175 class in less than 1.60. So, no I don't see how the Flare Gun is unbalanced. Also what's this bull♥♥♥♥ about allowing the Ubersaw because it's fun?! So straight upgrades for everyone's favourite comp class are allowed on the grounds of "FUN".

For the sake of discussion don't most people find it strange that the Pyro is the only non support or defense class NOT being played in comp as a core class. I have a theory that if Valve never released the Degreaser and instead gave its stats to the stock flamethrower, Pyro would have been the first class ever to be banned entirely from comp.

EDIT: The gentleman below me has some very nice thought on the matter. I couldn't have said it as eloquently as him, but competitive TF2 does leave the impression they desperately want to hold on to the status quo.

Infamado
04-08-2012, 12:09 AM
What an odd list. Why aren't teams allowed to choose whether they want to use particular weapons? Do they really need the league to stop them and say 'No, you don't want to use the Backscratcher, it'll punish your Medic'? Why shouldn't the players get a say? And banning weapons for just not being very good seems needless. Is there any point in withholding the Targe? Players don't need these decisions made for them; if a team wants to run a lone-wolf Pyro with the Backscratcher, that option should be available. And if that setup, or a similar strategic retooling, somehow threatens the 'standard' team composition, then so much the better; that gives teams more, and broader, decisions to make.

It's those larger decisions that are good for audiences; if a viewer has the option to think about strategy, they'll find themselves more invested than if they're just passively watching the frags unfold. The most appealing thing about keeping up with professional sports is that different teams play differently; they don't just mash identical strategies against each other and see who's best at doing that one thing. The 2010 World Cup final was a perfect example: A grinding, physical Netherlands side against a mobile, passing Spain. Spain versus Attempted Spain just wouldn't be as interesting. But it seems that the comp TF2 community resent the idea of a tournament establishing anything other than who is the best at imitating Spain. But really, it's not a bad thing that Stoke are permitted to grind out a win against Arsenal, and it would be a bad thing if the Premier League regarded such a result as somehow undesirable and took action to prevent it. Comp gaming culture in general seems focused, to its grave detriment, on identifying and eliminating the 'unworthy', and thus tends to focus on a needlessly narrow skill set. It's better to see who wins than to make sure the right guy wins.

Overzealous attempts to 'shape' gameplay into some desired form seem misguided; it's typically better to allow a metagame to develop by itself. In TF2, certain weapons would harm a more free metagame (the current class limits exist for good reason, and things like 1-shots on light classes ought to be carefully limited), but when the reason for bans are more along the lines of 'infringes on the importance of Uber advantage', gameplay is being artificially forced.

There seem to be plenty of banned unlocks which would actually add to the game. The Soldier's banners are interesting, but they're not allowed because they threaten the sanctity of the great and powerful Ubercharge? Flare Guns, because they put pressure on Medics (which sounds like a pretty excellent reason for teams to consider running a Pyro)? It all seems a touch conservative. It's a list designed to perpetuate the status quo rather than encourage a developing metagame. Go for it, I guess, but to me it seems that competitive rules are dedicated to ensuring the comfort of those already invested rather than expanding or improving the game, leaving comp TF2 in a rut it has no reason to be in.

Nomad Trooper
04-08-2012, 10:12 AM
I don't make the banlists.

More relevantly, the Bonesaw isn't banned.

Even more relevantly, the Ubersaw is allowed where other weapons aren't because it makes the game more fun for the Medic, rewards aggressive play and isn't a huge change, unlike most unlocks.

You're right, ubersaw makes the medic aggressive and encourages it to help the team less. Ban it.

MofoPro
04-08-2012, 12:09 PM
Jesus, guys you don't like the Ban list then don't play in the Leagues. If you want to play in a League that allows unlocks then form your own league and allow unlocks. Nobody is saying you have to join current existing leagues.

I'm just glad they don't ban the scout's fish. I ever decide to join a team in the pro leagues I might just play scout to get fish kills. I'm better a player at pyro, but hell if it isn't as fun as killing a heavy with a fish.

Yes, I've killed Heavies with the Holy Mackeral before. Took strategy, but I did it. 11 heavy kills and counting.

ungulateman
04-08-2012, 05:22 PM
You're right, ubersaw makes the medic aggressive and encourages it to help the team less. Ban it.

...

Getting 25% Uber for landing a melee swing rewards your team if you aren't terrible and die afterwards. It's a risk-reward thing at the competitive level because there aren't random idiot Spies or Sniper to get half a free charge from.

What an odd list. Why aren't teams allowed to choose whether they want to use particular weapons? Do they really need the league to stop them and say 'No, you don't want to use the Backscratcher, it'll punish your Medic'? Why shouldn't the players get a say? And banning weapons for just not being very good seems needless. Is there any point in withholding the Targe? Players don't need these decisions made for them; if a team wants to run a lone-wolf Pyro with the Backscratcher, that option should be available. And if that setup, or a similar strategic retooling, somehow threatens the 'standard' team composition, then so much the better; that gives teams more, and broader, decisions to make.

Alright, let's allow the Sticky Jumper and Rocket Jumper. If a Soldier or Demoman wants to give up all of their serious offensive power, they should be allowed to.

Allowing a player to cripple their team through poor unlock use decision is not fun for anyone.

It's those larger decisions that are good for audiences; if a viewer has the option to think about strategy, they'll find themselves more invested than if they're just passively watching the frags unfold. The most appealing thing about keeping up with professional sports is that different teams play differently; they don't just mash identical strategies against each other and see who's best at doing that one thing. The 2010 World Cup final was a perfect example: A grinding, physical Netherlands side against a mobile, passing Spain. Spain versus Attempted Spain just wouldn't be as interesting. But it seems that the comp TF2 community resent the idea of a tournament establishing anything other than who is the best at imitating Spain. But really, it's not a bad thing that Stoke are permitted to grind out a win against Arsenal, and it would be a bad thing if the Premier League regarded such a result as somehow undesirable and took action to prevent it. Comp gaming culture in general seems focused, to its grave detriment, on identifying and eliminating the 'unworthy', and thus tends to focus on a needlessly narrow skill set. It's better to see who wins than to make sure the right guy wins.

There's plenty of scope for different styles of play even with Vanilla. Again, it can be hard to spot if you're not watching experienced teams or if you aren't experienced yourself with competitive TF2, but it's not anywhere near as mirror-match as you imagine.

Overzealous attempts to 'shape' gameplay into some desired form seem misguided; it's typically better to allow a metagame to develop by itself. In TF2, certain weapons would harm a more free metagame (the current class limits exist for good reason, and things like 1-shots on light classes ought to be carefully limited), but when the reason for bans are more along the lines of 'infringes on the importance of Uber advantage', gameplay is being artificially forced.

Alright guys let's get rid of the offside rule we're shaping the gameplay into some desired form

oh and all out-of-bounds shots now lead to penalty shoot-outs

There seem to be plenty of banned unlocks which would actually add to the game. The Soldier's banners are interesting, but they're not allowed because they threaten the sanctity of the great and powerful Ubercharge? Flare Guns, because they put pressure on Medics (which sounds like a pretty excellent reason for teams to consider running a Pyro)? It all seems a touch conservative. It's a list designed to perpetuate the status quo rather than encourage a developing metagame. Go for it, I guess, but to me it seems that competitive rules are dedicated to ensuring the comfort of those already invested rather than expanding or improving the game, leaving comp TF2 in a rut it has no reason to be in.

The Buff Banner forces the team using it to baby one of their Soldiers, prevents either Soldier from jumping the enemy (one needs to protect the Medic, he needs a Shotgun to be of any use, the other has the Banner and can't do crap without Gunboats or a Shotty), and slows the game down. The other banners are utterly game-breaking (the Backup basically means "lol ♥♥♥♥ you for running the Kritzkrieg") and not worth a Shotgun respectively.

Some leagues allow the Flare Gun, but 90 burst damage from any range without a headshot isn't really much fun for light classes.

Again, the more experience you get in competitive TF2, the more depth you see it has. The metagame, even with minimal unlocks, is always changing, and the few not-terrible unlocks that are allowed enhance that.

I'm sure whoever runs the banlists would love to see more unlocks in the game (maybe not in Europe but in the US definitely), but the vast majority just don't improve the game beyond its original form.

Infamado
04-08-2012, 08:04 PM
Alright, let's allow the Sticky Jumper and Rocket Jumper. If a Soldier or Demoman wants to give up all of their serious offensive power, they should be allowed to.

Allowing a player to cripple their team through poor unlock use decision is not fun for anyone.

There's no need to forbid poor decision-making. The game doesn't need these rulings on low-powered items, and their entire effect in practice is to alienate non-competitive players. What version of comp TF2 is it where players would pick the Sticky Jumper against their team's wishes, and where it's the league's responsibility to ensure that teams cobble together a decent loadout?

[/quote]There's plenty of scope for different styles of play even with Vanilla. Again, it can be hard to spot if you're not watching experienced teams or if you aren't experienced yourself with competitive TF2, but it's not anywhere near as mirror-match as you imagine.[/quote]

I don't want to imply that it's a complete mirror-match, but I think a wider range of weapons would permit a wider range of styles. But then, the comp community seems set on encouraging a particular, aggressive, Medic-based, constantly-pushing style. That's fine, but it's not actually the only available option, and permitting teams to defend isn't necessarily a bad thing (as long as those defences aren't impregnable, of course). As I said, these rules seem to be set by players who favour pleasing themselves over advancing the game's appeal. If that's a desirable thing, feel free.

Alright guys let's get rid of the offside rule we're shaping the gameplay into some desired form

I knew the offside rule would come up. The thing is, that's a very specific corner case constructed to eliminate a style that otherwise affects the way the game is played. If strikers are free to sit next to the goal, teams can't afford to push up. That's what the offside rule is there to prevent. And I did clarify that certain limits and bannings are fine to encourage a healthy metagame, but to the extent that they exist it's looking more like 'physical teams and defensive tactics are banned because we want to encourage the style of Barcelona' (the kind of rulings we'd get if, for example, the game were governed by a committee of current top-level players...).

The Buff Banner forces the team using it to baby one of their Soldiers, prevents either Soldier from jumping the enemy (one needs to protect the Medic, he needs a Shotgun to be of any use, the other has the Banner and can't do crap without Gunboats or a Shotty), and slows the game down. The other banners are utterly game-breaking (the Backup basically means "lol ♥♥♥♥ you for running the Kritzkrieg") and not worth a Shotgun respectively.

It sounds like these are downsides for the team to consider, not for the league to dictate. And for power concerns, fair enough. Does 'game breaking' mean 'game breaking' or 'game changing'? They seem to be synonymous here, but I promise metagames are resilient. While they do require some degree of management, this community seems to view any change as a danger. If the Backup were to be a generally-used item, played as standard from game start by all teams, and which invalidates the KK, then that would be a problem. If it's deployed situationally as a tool against certain opposing loadouts, that's very very good.

As long as the KK is still viable and not pushed out of the scene entirely, this kind of lopsided balancing makes for interesting decisions. Magic: the Gathering has a long history of printing cards solely to counter existing strategies, or to keep potentially-overpowered decks in check, and it's done nothing bad for the game; if the dominating strategy is overplayed, its counter comes out of the woodwork and makes sure opposing decks are in with a shout. If not, it doesn't get played. But there are absolutely cards printed that screw over particular successful decks, and the only problem is when those cards aren't doing their jobs. Hard counters are fine as long as they aren't a standard starting inclusion. But that's a game where metagame evolution is enforced, so this kind of thing is perhaps more palatable to that community than this one.

As I say, the comp community is working hard to defend aggressive, Medic-dependent play and often appears unaware that this isn't some divinely-determined 'correct' style. But the community has established which specfic skills it wishes to measure, and shapes the game to encourage those skills over all others. Comp play is all about the Medics, and anything that threatens that fact is frowned upon because that is the very specific interaction which comp players want to see. We especially don't want items that invalidate Ubers, because we've decided it's important that the outcome hinges primarily on the Medic (why?).

Most successful competitive games offer a target, apply a framework of rules and then let players try to win. TF2 is focused on 'how one wins' and as much as 'whether one wins'. And again, that's fine; I don't much care how leagues run themselves. But I think a less-restricted game would be broader, more interesting and crucially, less removed from the community from which it draws its members and enthusiasts. It's typically a poor idea to micromanage the metagame.

lolzorz
04-08-2012, 08:23 PM
Seems strange to ban the Flaregun. Isn't it considered one of the truley balanced unlocks?

ungulateman
04-08-2012, 10:04 PM
Seems strange to ban the Flaregun. Isn't it considered one of the truley balanced unlocks?

I suppose I should clarify that the league I play in and Europe ban it; I don't know about the US or Australia, but I think Australia bans it as well.

Again, these ban lists vary over time, at least outside of Europe.

There's no need to forbid poor decision-making. The game doesn't need these rulings on low-powered items, and their entire effect in practice is to alienate non-competitive players. What version of comp TF2 is it where players would pick the Sticky Jumper against their team's wishes, and where it's the league's responsibility to ensure that teams cobble together a decent loadout?

I say that there is. Adding bad unlocks which alter the way the game plays makes it far too complex - one of the reasons Asia had such a restrictive banlist until recently was because the many variables unlocks create took a game few people could play consistently and made it even harder to make consistent.

If I can I'll find the specific quote, but it was directly related to the idea of unlocks.

I don't want to imply that it's a complete mirror-match, but I think a wider range of weapons would permit a wider range of styles. But then, the comp community seems set on encouraging a particular, aggressive, Medic-based, constantly-pushing style. That's fine, but it's not actually the only available option, and permitting teams to defend isn't necessarily a bad thing (as long as those defences aren't impregnable, of course). As I said, these rules seem to be set by players who favour pleasing themselves over advancing the game's appeal. If that's a desirable thing, feel free.

The thing is, watching or playing defense is generally a lot more boring than watching or playing offense. It's why 5CP is so popular.

Yes, teams are permitted to defend, which is why the Heavy, Engineer and Pyro aren't just straight-up banned. A lot of unlocks completely halt the game, however (Wrangler is particularly bad), or otherwise make defensive play much easier or all-around too effective.

I knew the offside rule would come up. The thing is, that's a very specific corner case constructed to eliminate a style that otherwise affects the way the game is played. If strikers are free to sit next to the goal, teams can't afford to push up. That's what the offside rule is there to prevent.

While I didn't cover the Spy yet, this is one of the reasons many leagues ban the Cloak and Dagger, because it allows precisely this kind of action. Many other unlocks make these sorts of situations rather easy to create.

Take the GRU for instance. With it, a Heavy can easily move up onto the top of Badlands' spire, and it's next to impossible to cap because he's got 300+ health and the best anti-air weapon in the game. It slows the game down, even if it speeds the Heavy up.

And I did clarify that certain limits and bannings are fine to encourage a healthy metagame, but to the extent that they exist it's looking more like 'physical teams and defensive tactics are banned because we want to encourage the style of Barcelona' (the kind of rulings we'd get if, for example, the game were governed by a committee of current top-level players...).

Nobody's forcing you to use the cookie-cutter setup, the fact remains that it's just more versatile, easier, and more effective than any other not-hideously-unbalanced combination of six classes.

You can have a team with a 24/7 Pyro or Sniper, they just aren't going to perform quite as well. That has nothing to do with unlocks and everything to do with mobility and the classes' core designs.

It sounds like these are downsides for the team to consider, not for the league to dictate. And for power concerns, fair enough. Does 'game breaking' mean 'game breaking' or 'game changing'?

Trust me when I say that most are game breaking.

They seem to be synonymous here, but I promise metagames are resilient. While they do require some degree of management, this community seems to view any change as a danger. If the Backup were to be a generally-used item, played as standard from game start by all teams, and which invalidates the KK, then that would be a problem. If it's deployed situationally as a tool against certain opposing loadouts, that's very very good.

One of the problems is that the Battalion's Backup doesn't just negate Kritzkriegs, it also allows the user to do crazy things like push against a team with complete Uber disadvantage and win. 35% damage resistance on an entire team for failing at the game is bad design.

As long as the KK is still viable and not pushed out of the scene entirely, this kind of lopsided balancing makes for interesting decisions.

Rock/paper/scissors matchups are nice, yeah, but they detract from the skill-based elements of TF2. The reason the Kritzkrieg is a perfect sidegrade is because it both wins and loses to the Ubercharge, rather than being strictly better against one weapon and strictly worse against another.

Do you really want matches to turn into guessing-games where you run a Sniper to counter the Heavy you think your opponent will use, but they don't so you lose? That particular example is because of the GRU, but it's the same concept.

Magic: the Gathering has a long history of printing cards solely to counter existing strategies, or to keep potentially-overpowered decks in check, and it's done nothing bad for the game; if the dominating strategy is overplayed, its counter comes out of the woodwork and makes sure opposing decks are in with a shout. If not, it doesn't get played. But there are absolutely cards printed that screw over particular successful decks, and the only problem is when those cards aren't doing their jobs. Hard counters are fine as long as they aren't a standard starting inclusion. But that's a game where metagame evolution is enforced, so this kind of thing is perhaps more palatable to that community than this one.

MtG has side-decks and other mechanics to allow for easy adjustments, but while remaining solidly focused around one idea.

You can't change your Kritzkrieg in the middle of your life for a Medigun if you see the enemy is running a Battalion's Backup, your only real option is to kill him before he uses it or not damage him enough to charge it (which lets him kill whatever he wants with impunity). And your opponent isn't stuck with the same strategy but with minor adjustments every round, they can entirely change stuff after every death.

As I say, the comp community is working hard to defend aggressive, Medic-dependent play and often appears unaware that this isn't some divinely-determined 'correct' style.

It's the style which is the fastest, most balanced, most exciting to play and watch, and easiest to organize.

Sure, it's not how TF2 was designed to be played, but nothing is how TF2 was designed to be played, not even TF2.

But the community has established which specfic skills it wishes to measure, and shapes the game to encourage those skills over all others. Comp play is all about the Medics, and anything that threatens that fact is frowned upon because that is the very specific interaction which comp players want to see.

Perhaps that's because those specific skills are, you know, actual skills rather than guessing, using the most overpowered stuff, or luck.

We especially don't want items that invalidate Ubers, because we've decided it's important that the outcome hinges primarily on the Medic (why?).

The Ubercharge. Even with these counter-weapons it'd be the most powerful thing in the game, the counter-weapons just make it harder to get said Ubercharge and that slows the game down.

But I think a less-restricted game would be broader, more interesting and crucially, less removed from the community from which it draws its members and enthusiasts. It's typically a poor idea to micromanage the metagame.

Play Highlander then. It's worth pointing out that Highlander is less popular, less well-balanced, less interesting as a whole (it's slow as molasses) and still pretty narrow (abuse OP weapons, get the Medic, Heavy and Demo to make stuff go boom, everyone else kills those guys or stops the enemy from killing those guys).

Nobody micromanages the metagame, they just set sensible limitations for it to develop in.

*phew* I have been enjoying this debate a lot, it's a fine change from "HURR DURR COMP SUX". +rep

NessHX
04-09-2012, 05:46 AM
Just understand that 6v6 simply is a mode thats easy to organise and supports good tactics in opposite to good strategies. Thats why its being kept so simple.

ungulateman
04-09-2012, 07:01 AM
Added the support classes, so I can stop until Valve adds some more terrible unlocks / alters existing ones. :D

Davtwan
04-10-2012, 10:41 PM
I have a couple of questions for Unglateman. Do you think if the Flare Gun does mini-crits at close-to-mid-range and crits at mid-to-long-range, it would be more easily accepted in leagues?

Do you think one of the main reasons Heavy is defensive is because he helps defend his team's push from ambushers? (More DPS at close-range at the cost of speed. Close-range DPS beats Scout's, Pyro's, and Spy's non-backstab DPS.)

How do most Leagues rejudge a weapon after it has gotten a nerf or buff to see if it gets a change in banned/unbanned status?

This is all out of curosity, btw.

Perfect Cell
04-11-2012, 12:27 AM
They better have not touched my Holiday Punch.

ungulateman
04-11-2012, 07:02 PM
I have a couple of questions for Unglateman. Do you think if the Flare Gun does mini-crits at close-to-mid-range and crits at mid-to-long-range, it would be more easily accepted in leagues?

That would make it underpowered in public play again. I think a tweak that could work is making afterburn in general more damaging but last less time, meaning the Medic is in danger of a 90 damage smack from any distance for less time.

Do you think one of the main reasons Heavy is defensive is because he helps defend his team's push from ambushers? (More DPS at close-range at the cost of speed. Close-range DPS beats Scout's, Pyro's, and Spy's non-backstab DPS.)

He's defensive because he doesn't have the mobility or flexibility to move around the battlefield.

Giving him that mobility breaks him: see Tomislav and GRU (and the BSS for that matter).

How do most Leagues rejudge a weapon after it has gotten a nerf or buff to see if it gets a change in banned/unbanned status?

Generally they have practice matches with it to see if it affects the way the game works, analyze it, then whoever's in charge makes a call either way.

Cobalt1
04-11-2012, 07:40 PM
Generally they have practice matches with it to see if it affects the way the game works, analyze it, then whoever's in charge makes a call either way.

I used to say this as well but we all know this is BS and most leagues straight off ban all unlocks now without even considering what effect it might have on the game.

A stagnant metagame is so much fun!

ungulateman
04-11-2012, 09:43 PM
guess what man

most unlocks are so bad that they don't warrant testing

KajiVena
04-11-2012, 10:22 PM
I used to say this as well but we all know this is BS and most leagues straight off ban all unlocks now without even considering what effect it might have on the game.

A stagnant metagame is so much fun!Because most +stat -stat weapons require testing.

DJohns
04-12-2012, 04:46 AM
The fact that it's even humanly possible to be so stupid to just even think about MAYBE being even close to banning the Market Gardener is so ridiculous and completely out of my world. If there's any of the newer unlocks that actually adds something to the game, then this one takes the prize by far. If the medic has any idea how to strafe, getting a market gardener kill on an unpredictable medic is 9001 times harder than getting a headshot. If market gardener is banned, then sniper should also be banned.

Sniper can stand far away and run pretty much no risk, and he doesn't even need to headshot to kill the medic. To kill with the market gardener requires you to rocket-jump and strafe like a pro, land near him, have perfect melee timing and run the risk of getting airshotted since you're required to have a somewhat predictable trajectory to make sure you reach him.

Everything it requires for a medic to not get "gardened" is to move forward and below the flying soldier since making sharp strafes is impossible with the momentum you gain from a rocketjump. No matter how good you are at market gardening, you will always have a harder time getting the medic pick than a sniper. ALWAYS. If you get gardened as a medic, then it's 100% your own fault for not being aware and for being predictable as hell. But if a sniper headshots him, then it's maybe 10% or 20% the medics own fault and the rest is the snipers positioning and aim. If anything, it would make more sense to just ban sniper than it does to ban market gardener then.

Trust me, I know what I'm talking about...market gardener is my standard soldier melee, and I can confirm that it's 4872384298702347234236239234324239874392 times harder to kill an unpredictable medic with this than it is to kill him with a headshot, and I'm a 1000 times better trolldier than a sniper. The market gardener is probably one of the most skill-rewarding unlocks against opponents that aren't braindead in this game.

My jimmies are rustled.

ungulateman
04-12-2012, 06:21 AM
The fact that it's even humanly possible to be so stupid to just even think about MAYBE being even close to banning the Market Gardener is so ridiculous and completely out of my world. If there's any of the newer unlocks that actually adds something to the game, then this one takes the prize by far. If the medic has any idea how to strafe, getting a market gardener kill on an unpredictable medic is 9001 times harder than getting a headshot. If market gardener is banned, then sniper should also be banned.

The Sniper outside of ideal circumstances is a 125 HP class with no self-defense or real firepower.

The Market Gardener Soldier outside of ideal circumstances is still a Soldier.

Big difference.

Also it's only banned by vanilla+medlocks leagues from my knowledge.

Sniper can stand far away and run pretty much no risk, and he doesn't even need to headshot to kill the medic. To kill with the market gardener requires you to rocket-jump and strafe like a pro, land near him, have perfect melee timing and run the risk of getting airshotted since you're required to have a somewhat predictable trajectory to make sure you reach him.

Or you could just divebomb normally and if you're lucky enough to be facing an idiot you can melee crit them in the face.

Everything it requires for a medic to not get "gardened" is to move forward and below the flying soldier since making sharp strafes is impossible with the momentum you gain from a rocketjump. No matter how good you are at market gardening, you will always have a harder time getting the medic pick than a sniper. ALWAYS. If you get gardened as a medic, then it's 100% your own fault for not being aware and for being predictable as hell. But if a sniper headshots him, then it's maybe 10% or 20% the medics own fault and the rest is the snipers positioning and aim. If anything, it would make more sense to just ban sniper than it does to ban market gardener then.

Medics can dodge everything which isn't a Sniper Rifle therefore the Sniper is OP

More relevantly, the team who swaps a Scout or Soldier for a Sniper puts themselves at a raw-DM disadvantage to gain the chance of an important instant kill. The team which swaps a Shovel or Equalizer for the Market Gardener gies up nothing and very little respectively in exchange for the slim possibility of a kill.

Trust me, I know what I'm talking about...market gardener is my standard soldier melee, and I can confirm that it's 4872384298702347234236239234324239874392 times harder to kill an unpredictable medic with this than it is to kill him with a headshot, and I'm a 1000 times better trolldier than a sniper. The market gardener is probably one of the most skill-rewarding unlocks against opponents that aren't braindead in this game.

Gotta love the hyperbole here. Sure, your point is valid, but there's these things which Soldiers are good at and Sniper aren't, called 'direct combat', 'mobility', 'flexibility', 'team protection', 'not being quite as badly ♥♥♥♥ed by Source hitreg coding', etc.

Because of this, there's next to no or no cost to using the Market Gardener, whereas using the Sniper is a legitimate risk/reward situation.

My jimmies are rustled.

My memes are tired and overused.

Did you actually read anything past the Market Gardener, perchance?

Silas Mann
04-12-2012, 02:22 PM
Market Gardener is a crit boost in skilled hands. Pros have skilled hands. Get where I'm going?

DJohns
04-12-2012, 03:27 PM
The Sniper outside of ideal circumstances is a 125 HP class with no self-defense or real firepower.

And if the soldier misses the hit, he will land with his melee out and get completely ♥♥♥♥♥ in seconds with barely enough time to switch weapons. If the sniper misses a shot, he can still take another few before the scouts are all over him. Market Gardener is high risk and high reward, where sniper is low risk and high reward. A soldier with his market gardener out and a sniper in close-range are both very vulnerable. This is not a good argument.


The Market Gardener Soldier outside of ideal circumstances is still a Soldier.

What exact point are you trying to make here? Yes, and a dr. Enforcicle spy is of ideal circumstances still a spy. What does that change?


Also it's only banned by vanilla+medlocks leagues from my knowledge.


I wasn't trying to attack you or claim that it's banned everywhere, I'm just trying to point out how ridiculous I think the ban is.



Or you could just divebomb normally and if you're lucky enough to be facing an idiot you can melee crit them in the face.

At the time when you used all your rockets to divebomb, you won't even have time to switch to the MG before touching the ground again. And if you're really jumping so high that you have, then you must have low horizontal speed and high vertical speed, which makes you a delicious target for airshots. Divebombing has a higher error margin, where MG only gives you one chance, and if you miss that one you will get ♥♥♥♥♥ when you land.



Medics can dodge everything which isn't a Sniper Rifle therefore the Sniper is OP

Please actually read what I write before embarassing yourself. I haven't said sniper was OP. Might try reading that part again, mister.


More relevantly, the team who swaps a Scout or Soldier for a Sniper puts themselves at a raw-DM disadvantage to gain the chance of an important instant kill. The team which swaps a Shovel or Equalizer for the Market Gardener gies up nothing and very little respectively in exchange for the slim possibility of a kill.

But unlike the Equalizer, the Market Gardener actually requires skill to use. If you're near a scout and you're at low hp with the Equalizer, then it's almost a guaranteed kill. Sure, you can be killed easily by being at low hp, but you can almost be killed easily while having the predictable trajectory required for reaching the medic with your MG, and you can also be killed easily if you miss the hit and just hit the ground stupidly with your melee out and no time to switch.



Gotta love the hyperbole here. Sure, your point is valid, but there's these things which Soldiers are good at and Sniper aren't, called 'direct combat', 'mobility', 'flexibility', 'team protection', 'not being quite as badly ♥♥♥♥ed by Source hitreg coding', etc.

And? That still doesn't change the fact that sniper is low risk high reward and MG is high risk high reward. Soldier is also f*cked by the hitreg on hit shotgun, although not as badly.
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Because of this, there's next to no or no cost to using the Market Gardener, whereas using the Sniper is a legitimate risk/reward situation.

Let's say the sniper kills the medic and then gets killed himself by the enemy scouts. He ran the risk and died, but his team was rewarded and the fact that they're one scout/sniper (f*ck you know what I mean) down doesn't matter too much since they have a giant uber advantage now.
Let's say the sniper fails to kill the medic and then get's ♥♥♥♥♥ by enemy scouts. You're now 5 man while they're 6 man, and yes - you are at a very big disadvantage now.
Let's say a Market Gardener soldier kills the medic and then gets ♥♥♥♥♥ when he lands. He ran the risk of meleeing the medic instead of divebombing, which has a larger error margin, and then he got killed when he landed. Sure, you're one soldier down, but you can still push because you have uber advantage now.
If the soldier fails to get a registering crit on the medic, then he will be killed the second he lands since everyone will focus-fire him. If he even gets that far, since you WILL need a fairly predictable trajectory to reach the medic and make sure you have enough extra speed if he backs away.

If a soldier misses the hit actually, he HAS no possible way of doing anything except dying (Unless his enemies are braindead beyond belief, which isn't common in comp). If a sniper misses the hit and then gets ♥♥♥♥♥ by scouts, theres still a slight chance that he might survive because hes with his team and has an smg, and perhaps the golden 1337qu1ck$c0p3 skillz. A soldier flying towards the medic will most likely NOT have his team magically flying behind him on a magical cloud, and thus theres absolutely no room for error when running the risk and going for a market gardener hit.

Market Gardener is a crit boost in skilled hands. Pros have skilled hands. Get where I'm going?
A market gardener soldier is laughably easy to dodge because you can't make sharp strafes while you have rocket-jump speed. It requires you to just step long enough in one direction to make him strafe towards where you are, and then sharply change direction again before he lands, and he's screwed, because he can't make a sharp strafe and catch up with you. If he wants to hit a medic that knows how to dodge him, he will have to predict. If he really predicts the medic succesfully and was lucky enough to not get airshotted, then he truly deserves to get that crit gardener in every possible way, and the medic also deserves it for being predictable.

EDIT: lol why is the word r4pe banned? It's not like it's a swearing word.