If this is a skill based game..

[Keldorn]

Why are smokers spawning behind your back and giving you like 1 second of reaction time to use your skill to counter attack? Basically it doesn't matter how skilled you are, your screwed.

Also the jockey frequently has no readability and comes out of nowhere 90% of the time ghosting through commons. Again doesn't matter how skilled you are, there is no sound/warning about it so you can react to counter it. So often you can be just standing there shooting commons and suddenly a jockey is on your back out of nowhere.

some of the attacks in this game are cheap shots that do much damage and ruin the skill base thing it has going for it?.

[Peegee]

You must hate it when I do a 25 point pounce, because while the hunter makes a noise when he jumps, when I'm several hundred yards away, you don't know where it's coming from.

(oh wait you can look up)

There's skill in being both infected and survivor; that's why the game has been out for years and there's still replayability.

[TheCombatMedic]

L4D is not about being able to stop every single attack that is thrown your way. You can try to, but the main meat of the game is relying on your team to save your ♥♥♥ if you get in trouble.

[Keldorn]

You must hate it when I do a 25 point pounce, because while the hunter makes a noise when he jumps, when I'm several hundred yards away, you don't know where it's coming from.

(oh wait you can look up)

There's skill in being both infected and survivor; that's why the game has been out for years and there's still replayability.

my mistake, I meant with the co-op mode. I understand with versus that the infected can spawn unnaturally. I dont like seeing unnatural spawning though in coop. Like a smoker spawning in a bush behind my back when I'm playing realism expert on co-op.

What I feel they should do is spawn some distance, then move towards you. You can hear their grunts and bacteria noises. that gives you some time to think about the situation and react appropriately.

[TheCombatMedic]

Honestly, that would make the game incredibly boring. If you can shut down every single attack from them because they are "giving you time to react", then there's no point in having your teammates around.

[bluz74]

It can't be skill based because I'm a decent player.

[York85]

Again doesn't matter how skilled you are, there is no sound/warning about it so you can react to counter it. So often you can be just standing there shooting commons and suddenly a jockey is on your back out of nowhere.

I don't agree with you there. There is sound available. I can almost always hear the SI bots approach by the noises they make. They also spawn way too far away giving you enough time to react. The bots are too easy in co-op if you ask me.

I can notice the difference between a player with less than 100 hours and a player with more than 100 hours. Therefore I'd say this game does involve skill/experience.

[Tyrant vs Tank]

I'd argue the opposite and have before.

The SI bacteria/sound in general is TOO MUCH of a giveaway and half competent survivor players will shut down that attack with ease.

What your saying basically amount to making the only thing that doesn't make noise (the hunter) make noise without crouching.

[Whiplashr]

Why are smokers spawning behind your back and giving you like 1 second of reaction time to use your skill to counter attack? Basically it doesn't matter how skilled you are, your screwed.

You don't think being able to whip around and take out a SI before it completes it snare like that takes skill?

Every time I do it, or see someone else do it, I think it was a skillful move. Requiring precision mouse control and situational awareness.

[Spanky88]

I've turned around and killed the smoker pulling me plenty of times. Do I it every time? No where close to it, but it's not very hard to do.

[Whiplashr]

It may not seem very hard to you, but I'm sure that some people have difficulty pulling it off.. especially if they are new to mouse controls. I think we take for granted the types of maneuvers we can do as "given", but they do require some skill.

I'm not saying it's uberskill.. just that it's not like it's no skill whatsoever.

[Pootsentryhere]

L4D2 is a team-based game. That means you can sometimes block incoming attacks, but most of the time you have to rely on your teammates to save you.

[Magaru]

I'd argue the opposite and have before.

The SI bacteria/sound in general is TOO MUCH of a giveaway and half competent survivor players will shut down that attack with ease.


Agreed, I wish some of the special infected weren´t so noisy.

The game is just too tilted in favour of the survivors.

Take the boomer, who´s loud (GOD, is he loud!), VERY vulnerable(one bullet and he´s dead), slow, is glued to the floor while vomiting AND has a one second pause between spawning and vomiting just so the player can have time to shove him away.

[TheCombatMedic]

Unless you are playing with surround sound, I don't see how zombie noise=exact location on where they hide. Sure, you know they are there but unless you got x-ray vision, you usually won't be able to tell exactly where they can be lurking.

[Muraz]

It sounds like anything which you're not good enough to handle, you're saying is "luck".

Jockeys don't come out of nowhere. They just come. What you're complaining about is that they don't always make noise and announce their arrival. To which the answer is ... don't put yourself in positions where a Jockey can sneak up on you. Problem solved.

[Sabotagebx]

Unless you are playing with surround sound, I don't see how zombie noise=exact location on where they hide. Sure, you know they are there but unless you got x-ray vision, you usually won't be able to tell exactly where they can be lurking.

once you play long enough, you the know the general location of them, not exactly but within a few feet easily

[Magaru]

And it works most of the time.

Last night I heard a boomer spawn inside a room of Dark Center 2, shot at the wall and eventually killed it.
... to which the opposing team started calling me a hacker. :rolleyes:

[jasminethecat]

my mistake, I meant with the co-op mode. I understand with versus that the infected can spawn unnaturally. I dont like seeing unnatural spawning though in coop. Like a smoker spawning in a bush behind my back when I'm playing realism expert on co-op.

What I feel they should do is spawn some distance, then move towards you. You can hear their grunts and bacteria noises. that gives you some time to think about the situation and react appropriately.

Are you complaining that the hardest co-op mode in the game is too hard? Seriously?


Unless you are playing with surround sound, I don't see how zombie noise=exact location on where they hide. Sure, you know they are there but unless you got x-ray vision, you usually won't be able to tell exactly where they can be lurking.

I use cheap headphones and I can pinpoint SI just fine. Been accused of hacking until people see my crappy aim.

[TheCombatMedic]

Well, the other problem is with the game being out so long, everyone at this point knows where people will use specific special infected.

[Magaru]

Well, the other problem is with the game being out so long, everyone at this point knows where people will use specific special infected.

I have over 1,000 hours of gameplay and I´m still surprised by new spots and tactics all the time.

Human creativity knows no boundaries.

[wolfshadow0118]

I thought this game was based on luck, with some skill added to those who know how to play.

[daveyeah]

I have over 1,000 hours of gameplay and I´m still surprised by new spots and tactics all the time.

Human creativity knows no boundaries.

...except invisible walls; I hate those things.

[TheCombatMedic]

I thought this game was based on luck, with some skill added to those who know how to play.

The only "luck" involved is where items will spawn and what special infected is in play, but even then, people know how to manipulate what infected can spawn in VS.

[Mr.E]

Honestly, that would make the game incredibly boring. If you can shut down every single attack from them because they are "giving you time to react", then there's no point in having your teammates around.

Truth, and also you may think you are playing like ♥♥♥♥ when in reality it may be your teammates that are bringing you down when they don't save you etc. where you normally expect solid teammates to do such.

[Sidesteal]

Strip the T2's and Med kits and have done with it already !!!

[Mr. Draco]

Valve doesnt make skill based games. EG. HL2 Grav gun, TF2 Soldier, L4D1&2 Terminators vs Kittens.

[hedberg]

skill, campaign? The skill ceiling is very low there, you learn the AI's tricks and then it's over. And it's very rare they spawn that close, they are spawning 1 by 1 and you can hear them so much before they can get you, expert is only hard because of the ridiculous common damage, you have to manage the commons and you can'T always shoot the SI from far.

[DionysoZ]

my mistake, I meant with the co-op mode. I understand with versus that the infected can spawn unnaturally. I dont like seeing unnatural spawning though in coop. Like a smoker spawning in a bush behind my back when I'm playing realism expert on co-op.

What I feel they should do is spawn some distance, then move towards you. You can hear their grunts and bacteria noises. that gives you some time to think about the situation and react appropriately.

Then you should play easy, not realism expert.

[JezMM]

my mistake, I meant with the co-op mode. I understand with versus that the infected can spawn unnaturally. I dont like seeing unnatural spawning though in coop. Like a smoker spawning in a bush behind my back when I'm playing realism expert on co-op.

What I feel they should do is spawn some distance, then move towards you. You can hear their grunts and bacteria noises. that gives you some time to think about the situation and react appropriately.


On Advanced difficulty and higher, special infected attack with zero hesitation to emphasise the team work aspect by giving you less time to save yourself (infected will also know when it's more beneficial to scratch than attack, especially the hunter).

They do still spawn plenty ahead usually though, so occasions where they spawn behind is usually because one has got away, has hidden just out of sight behind you (just so happened to be the fastest escape point for them), and then stalked you the whole way.

Even when you can't hear their coughing etc, their theme music will usually play periodically (search for <infected name> bacteria on youtube, there's a piano and strings version of each) to give you a heads up that they're still alive.


But yeah, basically agree with everyone else. If something gets you, don't feel cheated, just trust in your team mates and rely on them to be as responsive as you'd hopefully be if they get pinned.

[Rikonstruct]

Because you have teammates and they are supposed to help you. You're not supposed to be able to counteract every special infected while solo.

[Tyrant vs Tank]

Its a skilled based game for the SI. For the team with the guns, its not.

One SI outside of a tank and a poor survivor team can't solo a survivor team. A survivor can solo an SI team outside of the tank and depending on the map. One survivor can sometimes solo a tank.

The game is still unique for as much as I take shots at it. I try to remain balanced about it and not stray too far to the loyalists who turn a blind eye to the problems or the trolls who come in each thread and tell us Valve sucks and then leave.

[Keldorn]

I think its sad in this game that jockey is more deadly and threatening then even on the tank on expert realism coop. Its just bullet sponge. The jockey is probably the biggest source of cheese damage in this game. you should be able to headshot that mofo or blow its little chicken legs off (gibs) whiles it coming towards you.

[prophecy holder]

L4D2 can be a skilled based game. For instance, the skill of baby sitting the enemy team is very important. To have the same enemy team at the end of a versus game takes a lot of skill. If you are wondering what baby sitting is, it's playing bad on purpose the first couple of maps and then finally playing nomrally at the least couple of rounds. It gives them a false sense of playing awesome so they wont ragequit.

Baby sitting, easy to do but hard to master.

[Keldorn]

L4D2 can be a skilled based game. For instance, the skill of baby sitting the enemy team is very important. To have the same enemy team at the end of a versus game takes a lot of skill. If you are wondering what baby sitting is, it's playing bad on purpose the first couple of maps and then finally playing nomrally at the least couple of rounds. It gives them a false sense of playing awesome so they wont ragequit.

Baby sitting, easy to do but hard to master.


Honestly I've done that before a number of times on versus because it was too ripe that I could end the whole round with my attack and I didn't want to be unfair...
Also on coop babysitting bad players often leads to yourself getting killed. 1 or 2 bad players on coop can really bring down the whole team even if your the best player in the game.

[Shining Wolf]

L4D isn't exactly a hard game to get into anyway, though.

[KingPub]

my mistake, I meant with the co-op mode. I understand with versus that the infected can spawn unnaturally. I dont like seeing unnatural spawning though in coop. Like a smoker spawning in a bush behind my back when I'm playing realism expert on co-op.

What I feel they should do is spawn some distance, then move towards you. You can hear their grunts and bacteria noises. that gives you some time to think about the situation and react appropriately.

After the release of the Passing DLC the AI director has been broken. The ai diretor will now have rage fits and spawn common and special infected inside players, on top of player and right behind them.

I think Valve was trying to make the game more difficult but alls they did was make it more annoying.

I've seen so many smokers appear out of thin air and slowly float down to the ground. Common infecteds spawning inside me and other players. The AI director breakin spawn rules and spaning SI like crazy, as in killing 5 chargers in under 5 seconds...

[Muraz]

I think its sad in this game that jockey is more deadly and threatening then even on the tank on expert realism coop. Its just bullet sponge. The jockey is probably the biggest source of cheese damage in this game. you should be able to headshot that mofo or blow its little chicken legs off (gibs) whiles it coming towards you.
You can. Just shoot better.

[Magic Box]

Some of it is skill. The other part is teamwork and a little luck.