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View Full Version : The wrangler need a slight nerf/rework


Memopirates
03-27-2012, 10:34 AM
Pro's

+Shield blocking 66% of incoming damage
+Shield stays up for 3 seconds after switching away
+Manual control with unlimited turning speed
+Unlimited Range
+Rockets and Chainguns controlled to fire separately
+tripled fire rate
+completely silent and lazor line can be pointed in a way to hide it till to late
+engie teamwork makes it 20% worse


Con's
-Doesn't automatically lock onto targets like normal
-Lose Pistol
-bullet spread on sentry
-human error
-obvious target

You must admit that pro's are slighty...excessive

DoubleGale
03-27-2012, 10:37 AM
+Doubled DPS.
+Infinite Range.
+Target Prioritization.
+300% HP.

-Pistol.


YOU THINK?

Nerfed
03-27-2012, 10:37 AM
Actually it does lock on to targets (just aim near an enemy and the sentry locks on), and has no bullet spread last I checked.

Also add:
+Reach otherwise unreachable positions through sentry-rocket jumping.

alcrd
03-27-2012, 10:37 AM
I think not the Wrangler itself needs a nerf but a wrangled sentries knockback is just plain BS! Needs to be reduced by 50% at least!

Tiamatt
03-27-2012, 10:39 AM
Shields completely down when engie dies would be a good start, maybe losing some of the SG's knockback as well.

Bralef
03-27-2012, 10:39 AM
+Shield blocking 66% of incoming damage
+Shield stays up for 3 seconds after switching away

These are the same buff.

+Manual control with unlimited turning speed
+Rockets and Chainguns controlled to fire separately

These are the same buff.

+completely silent and lazor line can be pointed in a way to hide it till to late

That's not a buff. If anything, the laser is a nerf, because without the Wrangler, there's no laser at all. That's like saying the Machina's tracer bullets are a buff because they don't last very long.

+engie teamwork makes it 20% worse

That's not a buff.

Besides, Quantity and Quality aren't the same thing. Look at the Scottish Resistance. Five pros and one con. Would you really call it overpowered?

If you think the Wrangler is overpowered, fine. But you're approaching the issue from the wrong direction.

Monoman
03-27-2012, 10:40 AM
Slight nerf? This weapon is one of the top offenders for op unlocks. If you straight up removed the shield, it would still be an upgrade over the pistol.

Imo, it should replace the shotgun, THEN get nerfed.

DoubleGale
03-27-2012, 10:41 AM
These are the same buff.



These are the same buff.



That's not a buff. If anything, the laser is a nerf, because without the Wrangler, there's no laser at all.



That's not a buff.

Besides, Quantity and Quality aren't the same thing. Look at the Scottish Resistance. Five pros and one con. Would you really call it overpowered?

+Doubled DPS.
+Infinite Range.
+Target Prioritization.
+300% HP.
+Sentry Jumping.

-Pistol.


Really, people like you make me gape. How can you POSSIBLY defend the Wrangler?

Mikau
03-27-2012, 10:42 AM
You are just lining them up the pros and cons and judging the weapon by the amount alone, instead of actually giving some value or thought to them individually.

A human player misses, a Sentry doesn't.

People only consider it OP because nobody ever used the Pistol. And the funny thing is, a lot of people don't actually use the Wrangler either. Including me. I just switched to it because I used it more. And because of that, I switched to the Short Circuit, which many consider useless, but I've actually found it more useful. Yes, feel free to maul me.

rainbow dash™
03-27-2012, 10:43 AM
A decent spy can kill a wrangler spy without any problems.

Bralef
03-27-2012, 10:46 AM
Really, people like you make me gape. How can you POSSIBLY defend the Wrangler?

I'm "defending" the Wrangler because I pointed out things that are blatantly wrong with the OP? Sure, in the same sense that I would "defend" the Tomislav if someone said "The Tomislav's increased damage is ridiculously overpowered".

As I said in my above edit: If you think the Wrangler is overpowered, fine. It probably is. However, don't say it's overpowered because "It has more buffs than nerfs", and then list off several buffs that are the exact same thing. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

shinquickman
03-27-2012, 10:47 AM
A decent spy can kill a wrangler spy without any problems.So you absolutely positively must be playing a spy to counter a wrangler...People only consider it OP because nobody ever used the Pistol. And the funny thing is, a lot of people don't actually use the Wrangler either. Including me. I just switched to it because I used it more. And because of that, I switched to the Short Circuit, which many consider useless, but I've actually found it more useful. Yes, feel free to maul me.OK. Practically speaking. Why the hell would you use the Short Circuit over the Wrangler? The wrangler already gives the sentry triple health.

And "nobody ever uses the pistol"? The hell? Gunslinger aside, when is the pistol ever better than the wrangler?

vetag
03-27-2012, 10:47 AM
They need to nerf the health of mini sentries by a little.

Monoman
03-27-2012, 10:49 AM
You are just lining them up the pros and cons and judging the weapon by the amount alone, instead of actually giving some value or thought to them individually.

A human player misses, a Sentry doesn't.

People only consider it OP because nobody ever used the Pistol. And the funny thing is, a lot of people don't actually use the Wrangler either. Including me. I just switched to it because I used it more. And because of that, I switched to the Short Circuit, which many consider useless, but I've actually found it more useful. Yes, feel free to maul me.

I use the short circuit too, but that's just because I find the wrangler far too powerful. Why destroy an endless stream of projectiles (with a cost), when you can just tank it and kill off the people who are firing them?

Besides the extra firing rate and target prioritization more than makes up for human error.

ze_who
03-27-2012, 10:49 AM
+Doubled DPS.
+Infinite Range.
+Target Prioritization.
+300% HP.
+Sentry Jumping.

-Pistol.


Really, people like you make me gape. How can you POSSIBLY defend the Wrangler?

playstyle involved in using it often makes the engineer have a much shorter lifespan than the ones not using it, since they have to actually have a line of sight to the enemy while also having the sentry have line of sight with the enemy.

kinda like how you can't winbomb with the Scottish resistance, but in this case it's using your sentry as a shield.

DoubleGale
03-27-2012, 10:49 AM
You are just lining them up the pros and cons and judging the weapon by the amount alone, instead of actually giving some value or thought to them individually.

A human player misses, a Sentry doesn't.

People only consider it OP because nobody ever used the Pistol. And the funny thing is, a lot of people don't actually use the Wrangler either. Including me. I just switched to it because I used it more. And because of that, I switched to the Short Circuit, which many consider useless, but I've actually found it more useful. Yes, feel free to maul me.

It might be balanced if it was forced. But you get the option to, at any time, get all of those benefits in exchange for a pistol, and (only while those benefits are active) having to actually aim, which is made easier since the Wrangler locks on.

There, happy now? Still broken.

Memopirates
03-27-2012, 10:51 AM
These are the same buff.
~stuff


Never said they were buffs, just color coded to show the vast amout of positives vs negatives

ALL CAPS
03-27-2012, 10:53 AM
A decent spy can kill a wrangler spy without any problems.

wrangler spy

Spy update confirmed

DrScienceMan
03-27-2012, 10:54 AM
+Shield stays up for 3 seconds after switching away

This is both a pro and a con. This means three seconds of downtime. Because of this, wranglered sentries are pretty damn easy to take down as a Spy if you can sneak and get the drop on the Engie. Not to mention, in general, the Engie is venerable to ambushes. No auto-fire means that people may be able to sneak on by when they would have been blasted to pieces.

The wrangler versus the pistol (On a defensive Engie) is more or less like the fire axe versus the axtinguisher. Stock fails completely and utterly compared to the upgrade, so it's by many people considered overpowered based on that. Which, yeah, a wrangler in good hands is pretty damn nasty, but so are a ton of weapons in the game. At least, in the Engie's case, the pistol is still a viable choice in a certain playstyle (Battle Engie). The poor fire axe is there just for an added challenge and bragging rights.

Bralef
03-27-2012, 10:59 AM
Never said they were buffs, just color coded to show the vast amout of positives vs negatives

Replace the word "buff" in my post with "positive". That's exactly what I was talking about.

Multiverse_Rule
03-27-2012, 11:11 AM
It actually has alot of negatives: as it mentioned already, it doesn't lock on, but this actually turns into a worse negative: can be avoided. People can sneak past, people can avoid the shots alot easier, etcetera. Would anyone use a Machinegun with worse accuracy?

All negatives:

- Doesn't lock on
- Engineer can't do anything
- Engineer must be in sight (can't see your enemies through a wall after all)
- People see the Sentry aiming
- Only usable near to your Sentry

If you're going to list all advantages, also be fair and list all disadvantages. Not voicing my opinion on balanced or unbalanced here, just saying.

shinquickman
03-27-2012, 11:11 AM
Never said they were buffs, just color coded to show the vast amout of positives vs negativesBralef has one good point. Looking at a weapon's balance just by the quantity of positives and negatives doesn't make sense. Look at the quality of these positives vs. negatives, and it'd look like this:

Wrangler:

Manually controlled. Allows the sentry to take out priority targets instead of stupidly shooting the first guy in front of its face. Also allows the sentry to shoot rockets whenever the user wants, which can be used to corner spam peak-bombing soldiers and demos, and blow away stickies around the sentry. Also allows the engie to spy check much more effectively.

66% reduced damage taken. Effectively, a Wrangled sentry has triple the health of a regular sentry. Can really waste an uber's time. Also helps the engineer repair his sentry when it deactivates.

Doubled Firing rate. Allows to kill many classes in under a second with proper aim.

No fall-off damage. Coupled with the doubled fire rate, it can be a threat to anyone at range.


Manually controlled. Prioritizes enemies to take the squishy engie out first. Limits the engie's firepower to one person at a time in a set location instead of spreading damage out with the pistol. The engie becomes more likely to be distraced. Subject to human error.

Deactivates for 3 seconds on death or when switching. Adds to the risk of dying or switching away from the Wrangler when in an emergency

Overall, the quality of the buffs far outweigh the 2 nerfs, at least IMO. Take out the shield and the Wrangler would still be 2 steps ahead of the pistol.

Pete and Repeat
03-27-2012, 11:14 AM
Engineers who use the wrangler need to point it at their enemy. Usually this means that, in open spaces, they expose themselves to sniper fire. If the sniper's good, he'll one shot kill the engineer before the engineer notice him and mess up his aim. During the time when they are actually engaging the enemy, the need to constantly look at the enemy lines means that they are more vulnerable to spies.

I generally never use wranglers except situationally with a minisentry. It's maximum effectiveness can be reached only in wide open areas and level three sentry's simply too much of an investment and an asset to risk it.

But then I don't main engie, so take my words with a grain of salt.

Batty_Batterson
03-27-2012, 11:16 AM
I agree that it needs a nerf since it's practically a direct upgrade but I don't think this is the right direction to take.

Bralef
03-27-2012, 11:17 AM
Again, I'm actually more in favor of a Wrangler nerf than I am against it. The OP is right, just for the wrong reasons.

If the sniper's good, he'll one shot kill the engineer before the engineer notice him and mess up his aim.

This made me realize how effective a Cozy Camper Sniper would be at countering a Wrangler Engie.

Memopirates
03-27-2012, 11:21 AM
Again, I'm actually more in favor of a Wrangler nerf than I am against it. The OP is right, just for the wrong reasons.



GUYS WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

i never stated in what what it needs to be nerfed im just pointing out the positives vs the negatives....

shinquickman
03-27-2012, 11:24 AM
Engineers who use the wrangler need to point it at their enemy. Usually this means that, in open spaces, they expose themselves to sniper fire. If the sniper's good, he'll one shot kill the engineer before the engineer notice him and mess up his aim. During the time when they are actually engaging the enemy, the need to constantly look at the enemy lines means that they are more vulnerable to spies.

I generally never use wranglers except situationally with a minisentry. It's maximum effectiveness can be reached only in wide open areas and level three sentry's simply too much of an investment and an asset to risk it.

But then I don't main engie, so take my words with a grain of salt.The biggest issues with the wrangler come up when an engineer is working at his best spots. AKA, closed up areas with few entrances. Sentries already work well in these areas. Wrangled sentries work almost 2 times better. Why should that be?

Pete and Repeat
03-27-2012, 11:25 AM
Are you being sarcastic here, or can you not see the title to your own thread.

isildur4
03-27-2012, 11:25 AM
It actually has alot of negatives: as it mentioned already, it doesn't lock on, but this actually turns into a worse negative: can be avoided. People can sneak past, people can avoid the shots alot easier, etcetera. Would anyone use a Machinegun with worse accuracy?

All negatives:

- Doesn't lock on
- Engineer can't do anything
- Engineer must be in sight (can't see your enemies through a wall after all)
- People see the Sentry aiming
- Only usable near to your Sentry

If you're going to list all advantages, also be fair and list all disadvantages. Not voicing my opinion on balanced or unbalanced here, just saying.

this is why is usually use the pistol instead.
the only time i ever use the wrangler is if there are a ♥♥♥♥ton of obvious spies, im jumping to a spot, or my sentry is at the end of a long skinny hallway, where flanking is notably more difficult.

any actually good sentry spot, youre better of running the pistol.

DoubleGale
03-27-2012, 11:29 AM
- Doesn't lock on

Only while using it. You can reenable that at will by switching away.


- Engineer can't do anything

You can switch to Shotgun or Wrench, heal your sentry/fire Shotgun, and switch back before the shield goes down.


- Engineer must be in sight (can't see your enemies through a wall after all)

And a non-wrangled sentry can shoot through walls? :rolleyes:


- People see the Sentry aiming

Can be hidden.


- Only usable near to your Sentry

If you're not near your sentry, why in hell are you holding the Wrangler out?

Wrangler either needs to completely disable autoaim, regardless of what weapon you have out, or have the shield removed.

Dr. Sandman
03-27-2012, 11:49 AM
You forgot to include two cons: human error and an idle engineer focusing on a single target. It's a wet dream for anyone but the direct target, including those 5 snipers and spies on your team.

xmacro
03-27-2012, 11:53 AM
Nothing wrong with the wrangler; using it gives engie more firepower, but makes him the #1 target for every sniper and spy on the enemy team, not to mention tunnel vision.

On paper, you can make the wrangler look OP as the original poster did, but once you get in the game and actually try to use it, the shortcomings become obvious. As anyone who's played TF2 for more than a few hours can attest, although many engy's carry the wrangler, they almost never use it; it's actually rare to see the wrangler used due to becoming such high priority sniper/spy bait.

Snartleflush
03-27-2012, 11:54 AM
I just use the pistol.

Memopirates
03-27-2012, 11:59 AM
Nothing wrong with the wrangler; using it gives engie more firepower, but makes him the #1 target for every sniper and spy on the enemy team, not to mention tunnel vision.

On paper, you can make the wrangler look OP as the original poster did, but once you get in the game and actually try to use it, the shortcomings become obvious. As anyone who's played TF2 for more than a few hours can attest, although many engy's carry the wrangler, they almost never use it; it's actually rare to see the wrangler used due to becoming such high priority sniper/spy bait.

You do have a point but i've seen many engies use the wrangler and futhermore there are a lot of incompetent spies and snipers and while there might be 3 of each, they never get the job done :/

NuclearKangaroo
03-27-2012, 12:00 PM
+Doubled DPS.
+Infinite Range.
+Target Prioritization.
+300% HP.
+Sentry Jumping.

-Pistol.


Really, people like you make me gape. How can you POSSIBLY defend the Wrangler?

easy

- it makes you a much easier target for basically everyone
- if you are killed your sentry is disabled
- unless you have mad skills, you will never be as accurate and fast as the sentry's autoaim, thats why the double FPS is nessesary
- it gives away the sentyr possition very easily



i really dont find him overpowered, maybe i havent found someone who can use really well

but then again basically any weapon is amazing in the right hands, that doesnt make it overpowered

Bralef
03-27-2012, 12:00 PM
i never stated in what what it needs to be nerfed im just pointing out the positives vs the negatives....

Oh. When you said "The wrangler need a slight nerf", what I thought you meant was "The wrangler needs a slight nerf". My mistake.

DrScienceMan
03-27-2012, 12:03 PM
You do have a point but i've seen many engies use the wrangler and futhermore there are a lot of incompetent spies and snipers and while there might be 3 of each, they never get the job done :/

Basically, your problem is your enemy team having good players and your team having derp players. Regardless of what weapons used, that's still going to result in aggravating times.

Memopirates
03-27-2012, 12:05 PM
Basically, your problem is your enemy team having good players and your team having derp players. Regardless of what weapons used, that's still going to result in aggravating times.

not really because it most cases it takes a coordinated team to take out a wranged sentry, but at the same time what about the engies team?

think there just going to wait in spawn having sandwich parties?

DoubleGale
03-27-2012, 12:07 PM
- it makes you a much easier target for basically everyone

Only if you're a tunnel-vision idiot. Keep moving and be aware of your surroundings. There is absolutely nothing in the Wrangler that makes you an easier target.


- if you are killed your sentry is disabled

Doesn't help much when it still has 300% health during that period.


- unless you have mad skills, you will never be as accurate and fast as the sentry's autoaim, thats why the double FPS is nessesary

Except the part where aiming isn't that hard unless it's long range, at which point you're pretty much safe anyways. Oh and, you know, the fact that the Wrangler locks you onto targets?


- it gives away the sentyr possition very easily

Here's a thought, aim it at a wall/keep your shotgun out until you need it. Sentry position is no longer given.

Multiverse_Rule
03-27-2012, 12:39 PM
Only while using it. You can reenable that at will by switching away.


You can switch to Shotgun or Wrench, heal your sentry/fire Shotgun, and switch back before the shield goes down.


And a non-wrangled sentry can shoot through walls? :rolleyes:


Can be hidden.


If you're not near your sentry, why in hell are you holding the Wrangler out?

Wrangler either needs to completely disable autoaim, regardless of what weapon you have out, or have the shield removed.

I'll just be lazy with the quoting and address your points 1 by 1 like this:

- Can easily be said about anything. Of course something that's not used has no disadvantages. But it doesn't have any advantages either then! Heck, scrap the "no disadvantes" part, as having no advantages IS the disadvantage. A pretty huge one if you ask me.

- In which time the Sentry couldn't do anything. Regardless, 1 of the 2 can't do anything.

- What does that have to do with anything? Try this: A non-wrangled Sentry can shoot when the Engineer is behind a wall. Whether the Sentry itself is behind a wall is not part of this.

- The red beam is always seen

- See point 1: can easily be said about anything. A weapon is great when it's great, unless a situation appears in which it's not so great. Quite an oxymoron there. If a Pistol had the disadvantage "can only be used at Sentries", would you also say "that's no disadvantage, just don't use it anywhere else!"?

sukime101
03-27-2012, 12:50 PM
lol i love wrangled sentries
so easy to kill

u guys are crazy

even a pyro can kill a lvl 3 wrangled sentry

Teamfortressguy
03-27-2012, 12:56 PM
lol i love wrangled sentries
so easy to kill

u guys are crazy

even a pyro can kill a lvl 3 wrangled sentry

Must be some really ♥♥♥♥ty players if you're able to do that.

NuclearKangaroo
03-27-2012, 01:01 PM
Only if you're a tunnel-vision idiot. Keep moving and be aware of your surroundings. There is absolutely nothing in the Wrangler that makes you an easier target.

but thats the thing you CANT be aware of your surroundings and you CANT move wherever you please because both you and your sentry must have line of sight towards the enemy


Doesn't help much when it still has 300% health during that period.

it doesnt help much? NOT dealing 200+ DPS doesnt help much?


Except the part where aiming isn't that hard unless it's long range, at which point you're pretty much safe anyways. Oh and, you know, the fact that the Wrangler locks you onto targets?


counter-point (http://youtu.be/rhIUroQCF_U?t=1m34s)


Here's a thought, aim it at a wall/keep your shotgun out until you need it. Sentry position is no longer given.

heres a thought, shoot someone with that thing, now every spy and sniper in the map knows where you are and is ready to kill you

WeirdScout
03-27-2012, 01:06 PM
Remove the shield and give it sound. It's a start.

NuclearKangaroo
03-27-2012, 01:13 PM
Remove the shield and give it sound. It's a start.

removing the shield is the worst idea possible

you have a shield because you cant repair your sentry while you are using the wrangler

Koobadoobs
03-27-2012, 01:23 PM
Basing it on the number or pros alone is stupid. That's like saying this weapon is OP:

New Pistol Unlock:

- Deals 1% more damage
- Fires 1% faster
- Bullet spread decreased by 1%
- Reload speed increased by 1%

- -50% clip size

Just cause there's four times as many pros doesn't make it OP. Obviously this is an extreme example. That's not my point. My point is that you can't prove overpowered-ness just by listing the attributes and seeing more blue than red. The Cow Mangler isn't OP. The Scottish Resistance isn't OP. The Wrangler may be OP (i'm not gonna post my opinion, it's not worth it), but its balance isn't a result of the number of pros. If you said that the pistol is worthless junk and the other cons are hardly noticeable compared to the extremely good pros, then you might make a convincing argument. But you can't just say, "there are more pros than cons so it's OP."

binarycoder
03-27-2012, 01:38 PM
wanna know another downside? spies have three exta seconds to sap your sentry after stabing you. That, plus human error, is downside enough.

Trauma Advocate
03-27-2012, 01:40 PM
Remove damage resistance to melee weapons. Homewrecker Pyros suddenly gain respect.

TWO PROBLEMS SOLVED.

ChaoSynergy
03-27-2012, 01:49 PM
I never understood why it has a doubled firing rate when Wrangled. Seems kind of excessive to me, especially on a L3 sentry.

Koobadoobs
03-27-2012, 01:50 PM
More downsides!

No secondary to save metal when wielding widowmaker
No secondary to deal with light enemies you don't want to waste FJCrits on

NuclearKangaroo
03-27-2012, 01:59 PM
I never understood why it has a doubled firing rate when Wrangled. Seems kind of excessive to me, especially on a L3 sentry.

because otherwise there would be no upside on using it, you might as well let the sentry do all the job, its much faster than you and it doesnt have tunnel vision

FreshHalibut
03-27-2012, 02:02 PM
I don't understand why people feel like they should be able to duel an engineer with a L3 sentry and walk out unscathed.

The Engineer spends a bunch of time building his sentry, erecting his dispenser, and finding a proper location to fight from, and every crosseyed demoman or soldier feel like they should be able to take the thing head on by themselves with no difficulty whatsoever.

ChaoSynergy
03-27-2012, 02:03 PM
because otherwise there would be no upside on using it, you might as well let the sentry do all the job, its much faster than you and it doesnt have tunnel vision

The upside to the Wrangler is that you can manually choose targets and hit targets from out of the Sentry's range, as well as having a 66% damage shield.

It doesn't need a doubled firing rate to do those things.

isildur4
03-27-2012, 02:18 PM
Remove damage resistance to melee weapons. Homewrecker Pyros suddenly gain respect.

TWO PROBLEMS SOLVED.

of all the ♥♥♥♥♥ing about the sheild, this one is actually reasonable. if you can get that close, you deserve it.

NuclearKangaroo
03-27-2012, 02:20 PM
The upside to the Wrangler is that you can manually choose targets and hit targets from out of the Sentry's range, as well as having a 66% damage shield.

It doesn't need a doubled firing rate to do those things.

what is the point of choosing targets?

the sentry can lock on and kill anything in 1 seconds, the shield would be half worth it, but then again you can just repair your sentry

Gamemaster1379
03-27-2012, 02:23 PM
Actually it does lock on to targets (just aim near an enemy and the sentry locks on), and has no bullet spread last I checked.

Also add:
+Reach otherwise unreachable positions through sentry-rocket jumping.

Shh, if you get rid of that, all the fun is taken out of the wrangler.

Koobadoobs
03-27-2012, 02:26 PM
what is the point of choosing targets?

the sentry can lock on and kill anything in 1 seconds, the shield would be half worth it, but then again you can just repair your sentry

The reason manual control is good is that smart medics will charge the sentry when they uber so they take all the knockback, and also if you have infinite range with no damage spread, it opens up big possibilities for exploits. The ability of a single engineer to spam over 100 dps at ANY range limits all future map design to close quarters with no long sightlines, which has a side effect of leaving the sniper useless on many maps.

KennyPwns2
03-27-2012, 02:29 PM
I still use the pistol, the weapon is severely underrated. If you're firing at the same target your sentry is with the pistol, you'll kill them just as fast as if you were using a wrangled sentry. 88 DPS is nothing to laugh at.

sukime101
03-27-2012, 02:31 PM
All I see is F2Ps who cant kill ♥♥♥♥ crying like babies about how OP some weak weapon is

Gamemaster1379
03-27-2012, 02:31 PM
The reason manual control is good is that smart medics will charge the sentry when they uber so they take all the knockback, and also if you have infinite range with no damage spread, it opens up big possibilities for exploits. The ability of a single engineer to spam over 100 dps at ANY range limits all future map design to close quarters with no long sightlines, which has a side effect of leaving the sniper useless on many maps.

Actually, it relaly doesn't limit sniper usefuless if the map is designed correctly for snipers and Engineers. The problem is that nobuild is not properly used when necessary, nor is player clipping. What's more, is when nobuild IS applied, it is not applied correctly (Valve is especially guilty of this), and thus, can be exploited.

NuclearKangaroo
03-27-2012, 02:47 PM
The reason manual control is good is that smart medics will charge the sentry when they uber so they take all the knockback, and also if you have infinite range with no damage spread, it opens up big possibilities for exploits. The ability of a single engineer to spam over 100 dps at ANY range limits all future map design to close quarters with no long sightlines, which has a side effect of leaving the sniper useless on many maps.

there was never going to be a map like that because there already a class that can do that, its called sniper


even with the wrangler you cant avoid that, the medic will get in front of the sentry and the patient will shoot through him, also check the wrangler weapon demostration, even with the doubled rate of fire a normal person has a hard time keeping up with a normal sentry

Banana Split
03-27-2012, 02:53 PM
+Doubled DPS.
+Infinite Range.
+Target Prioritization.
+300% HP.
+Sentry Jumping.

-Pistol.


Really, people like you make me gape. How can you POSSIBLY defend the Wrangler?

Well, I think wrangler is fine. It is not annoying and I never saw anyone dominating a game with it. And engi wrangling is very weak and a Sniper or Spy can easily destroy him. Also, after he dies, the sentry is disabled for 3 sec meaning the other team has the time to destroy it. And against an uber, it will still be destroyed. If you don't want knockback, don't jump.

xmacro
03-27-2012, 02:53 PM
All I see is F2Ps who cant kill ♥♥♥♥ crying like babies about how OP some weak weapon is

Pretty much this.

As an engy that's used the wrangler since it was first released, I rarely use it. As an engy, I want any enemy attention on my sentry, not myself; pulling out the wrangler is a giant "KILL ME" sign over my head. Quite honestly, I don't pull it out unless a demo or soldier is trying to edge my sentry. If I pull it out any other time, I know a spy will be creeping up on me or a sniper is gonna peak around the corner as soon as they find out.

Also left unsaid is something that every wrangler engy knows - refilling it takes a TON of ammo; filling up an empty wrangler takes MORE than 200 metal, so every engy always has their dispenser nearby. Given the fact that the wrangler causes a sentry to chew through ammo at twice the normal rate means that unlike a normal sentry, a wrangled sentry needs to be regularly refilled, thus draining all the engy's metal.

Finally, like it's already been said, a wrangler is a spy's wet dream; for a decent spy who can stab and sap, 3 seconds after stabbing the engy is an eternity, probably long enough to taunt kill the sentry

Numbuh 214
03-27-2012, 03:00 PM
More accurate Wrangler stats:


Sentry only takes 1/3 of normal damage while weapon is active (and for 3 seconds afterward)
Sentry fires 50% faster while weapon is active
User must control Sentry manually
Sentry displays a laser sight pointing to where the wearer is pointing while active
Sentry is disabled for 3 seconds when the Engineer either switches weapons or dies

The ability to Wrangler jump is due to the fact that the Engineer cannot pass through his own buildings and is hurt by his own Sentry's fire. The fact that it replaces the Pistol cannot be used as a downside like it can with the Razorback or Gunboats, since you still have a weapon in the slot.

ultimatemodz
03-27-2012, 03:01 PM
Dose everyone once one weapon is nerfed move on to another weapon. it really isnt over powered i mean seriously the engi is more open for backstabs because he is focusing on the front lines and the 3 sec off line time give the spy tons of time to sap the sentry

Bralef
03-27-2012, 03:02 PM
Dose everyone once one weapon is nerfed move on to another weapon.

...

What?

kirbyte
03-27-2012, 03:07 PM
"Sniper/Spy counters it."

Sounds familiar.

snacks289
03-27-2012, 03:29 PM
And pyro counters spy. What, are the people who use Wranglers all deaf and have no teammates? I'm not going to get into the Wrangler argument, but saying "spy counters it" is and has always been a stupid, oversimplified argument.

Ratallideth
03-27-2012, 03:45 PM
Soldier can rocket jump behind the engie and kill him.
Scout can just run around him and kill the engie.
Pyro can reflect the rockets back to the engie.
Heavy can team up with a medic.
Demo can spam stickys/grenades to the engie, then the sentry.
Sniper is kinda obvious.
Spy has been always a counter to engie.
Medic can uber someone and kill the sentry and/or the engie.
If you can't do this, you just suck.

Keepy989
03-27-2012, 03:50 PM
Oh God, the posts here defending the Wrangler are ♥♥♥♥ing adorable.

Butcher Pete
03-27-2012, 03:59 PM
the downside is engineers on pubs have to start aiming and shooting at their enemies

or learn to switch from anything but the wrench

DrScienceMan
03-27-2012, 04:03 PM
...

What?

Translation: "What, once one weapon you guys complain about get nerfed, do you just move on to complaining about another weapon?"

In other words, he's claiming that since the phlog got nerfed, instead of being happy people just started to cause a jaratestorm about the wrangler.

Rezuul
03-27-2012, 04:06 PM
removing the shield is the worst idea possible

you have a shield because you cant repair your sentry while you are using the wrangler

You do realise you can switch to your wrench while using the wrangler, and the shield will remain while it's in its downtime, allowing you to repair at 300% the effectiveness of regular repairing? And then just switch right back and go back to killing everything?
Soldier can rocket jump behind the engie and kill him.
Scout can just run around him and kill the engie.
Pyro can reflect the rockets back to the engie.
Heavy can team up with a medic.
Demo can spam stickys/grenades to the engie, then the sentry.
Sniper is kinda obvious.
Spy has been always a counter to engie.
Medic can uber someone and kill the sentry and/or the engie.
If you can't do this, you just suck.
If you CAN do this, the Engineer is a complete ♥♥♥♥♥♥ and you should feel sorry for connecting to that server in the first place. Go PM this guy (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/member.php?u=448585) (YES DL YOU'RE GETTING RANDOM PUBLICITY DEAL WITH IT), ask for a Wrangler 1v1 or something, and have a grand old time countering him with circle-strafing and reflecting rockets at him. It's sure to work out :rolleyes:

Bull3tM0nk3y
03-27-2012, 04:07 PM
You guys are kidding me, right?

DrScienceMan
03-27-2012, 04:10 PM
ask for a Wrangler 1v1 or something

1v1? Ahahaha. It's called Team Fortress 2 for a damn reason. If we're actually considering 1v1 to be worth anything, than Spy, Medic, and Sniper are horribly underpowered and Pyro (Great when he can ambush) is pretty bad. Hell, I'm pretty sure 1v1 with a non-wrangled level 3 sentry would still favor the Engie.

Rezuul
03-27-2012, 04:13 PM
1v1? Ahahaha. It's called Team Fortress 2 for a damn reason. If we're actually considering 1v1 to be worth anything, than Spy, Medic, and Sniper are horribly underpowered and Pyro (Great when he can ambush) is pretty bad. Hell, I'm pretty sure 1v1 with a non-wrangled level 3 sentry would still favor the Engie.

He does pubs and childrens birthday parties too if the person thinks that his enemy team isn't going to support the Wrangling engie in the slightest and that a 5v1 would be both successful and balanced that the same time. And that guy was saying you could (barring his heavy/medic "suggestion") easily 1v1 Wranglers as any class solo, so I was putting that to the test. Now if only I could find a link to that deal-with-it-dog picture...

FreshHalibut
03-27-2012, 04:28 PM
Topics like this make me wonder how people deal with regular sentries.
Assuming they're placed properly, meaning you can't edge them or snipe them, and the engineer isn't braindead don't they usually take an uber or spy to take out anyway?

I'm not supporting/bashing the wrangler, but I don't get why everyone thinks they should be able to single handedly take out a L3 sentry guarded by an engineer, with or without the wrangler.

Butcher Pete
03-27-2012, 04:37 PM
Topics like this make me wonder how people deal with regular sentries.
Assuming they're placed properly, meaning you can't edge them or snipe them, and the engineer isn't braindead don't they usually take an uber or spy to take out anyway?

I'm not supporting/bashing the wrangler, but I don't get why everyone thinks they should be able to single handedly take out a L3 sentry guarded by an engineer, with or without the wrangler.
Why not? Its not that hard to build and maintain a sentry. If the Engineer is by himself with absolutely no team backup he or his team is playing wrong and should learn better. Having an Engineer deep behind his defense have a sentry that can effectively use an entire uber isn't gonna be easy for any offensive team to win.

TheFailWhale
03-27-2012, 04:46 PM
IMO, all it needs is:

Removal of autoaim
Weakening of shield.

Then it'd be perfectly fine, again IMO.

Rg Toad
03-27-2012, 04:51 PM
Well, I think wrangler is fine. It is not annoying and I never saw anyone dominating a game with it. And engi wrangling is very weak and a Sniper or Spy can easily destroy him. Also, after he dies, the sentry is disabled for 3 sec meaning the other team has the time to destroy it. And against an uber, it will still be destroyed. If you don't want knockback, don't jump.

I feel like Highlander would argue otherwise, a pyro pretty much stops spies dead in their track. And your sniper should kill their sniper :)

TheFailWhale
03-27-2012, 05:03 PM
I feel like Highlander would argue otherwise, a pyro pretty much stops spies dead in their track. And your sniper should kill their sniper :)

You assume that the engie's team has a decent sniper.

Never the case. :p

shinquickman
03-27-2012, 05:07 PM
Topics like this make me wonder how people deal with regular sentries.
Assuming they're placed properly, meaning you can't edge them or snipe them, and the engineer isn't braindead don't they usually take an uber or spy to take out anyway?

I'm not supporting/bashing the wrangler, but I don't get why everyone thinks they should be able to single handedly take out a L3 sentry guarded by an engineer, with or without the wrangler.The issue isn't going 1v1 vs a Wrangler engie. It's an attacking team vs. a defending team with the Wrangler. Wrangled sentries are just too tough and too threatening when used defensively, and the engie can protect himself pretty easily by just moving around and coordinating with his team. This results in ubers being unable to kill off a wrangled sentry or the engie in a meaningful amount of time. That leaves spies the only decent counter to a wrangled sentry, but why should the wrangler be "balanced" by being counterable by the spy? And spies aren't even the bane of wrangled sentries like most SPUFers seem to think. The Wrangler actually IMPROVES the engie's ability to spy check.

POTaTOS_2.0
03-27-2012, 05:21 PM
Nothing wrong with the wrangler; using it gives engie more firepower, but makes him the #1 target for every sniper and spy on the enemy team, not to mention tunnel vision.

On paper, you can make the wrangler look OP as the original poster did, but once you get in the game and actually try to use it, the shortcomings become obvious. As anyone who's played TF2 for more than a few hours can attest, although many engy's carry the wrangler, they almost never use it; it's actually rare to see the wrangler used due to becoming such high priority sniper/spy bait.

This is why the Wrangler does not need a nerf. Just distract the engie with a heavy/medic combo as a spy comes up behind the engie, stabs him, taunts and then saps the sentry. In open areas you don't even need a spy, just 1 headshot (Which can be delivered by a spy with the Ambassador as well as a sniper!)

S.K.R.G.
03-27-2012, 05:37 PM
This is why the Wrangler does not need a nerf. Just distract the engie with a heavy/medic combo as a spy comes up behind the engie, stabs him, taunts and then saps the sentry. In open areas you don't even need a spy, just 1 headshot (Which can be delivered by a spy with the Ambassador as well as a sniper!)

This would work equally well against a non wrangled sentry, possibly better since the non-wrangled one wouldnt have 3x health even after the engie is dead

Derp-Master
03-27-2012, 05:50 PM
Or you could just uber demo and blow ♥♥♥♥ up.

Remember people: LOGIC

Derp-Master
03-27-2012, 05:52 PM
Topics like this make me wonder how people deal with regular sentries.
Assuming they're placed properly, meaning you can't edge them or snipe them, and the engineer isn't braindead don't they usually take an uber or spy to take out anyway?


Look on the OP's join date.

lol f2p players

DoubleGale
03-27-2012, 06:07 PM
heavy

medic

spy

>Saying it's balanced because it only takes 3 people to take down one.

S.K.R.G.
03-27-2012, 07:10 PM
Or you could just uber demo and blow ♥♥♥♥ up.

Remember people: LOGIC

takes at least 6 perfectly placed stickies. Knockback means you may not even be able to get that many near the target.

Ratallideth
03-27-2012, 07:17 PM
If you CAN do this, the Engineer is a complete ♥♥♥♥♥♥ and you should feel sorry for connecting to that server in the first place. Go PM this guy (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/member.php?u=448585) (YES DL YOU'RE GETTING RANDOM PUBLICITY DEAL WITH IT), ask for a Wrangler 1v1 or something, and have a grand old time countering him with circle-strafing and reflecting rockets at him. It's sure to work out :rolleyes:
So, you don't have a team, huh? That sucks

Butcher Pete
03-28-2012, 12:27 AM
So, you don't have a team, huh? That sucks
sure, its just so does the engineer

Vixori
03-28-2012, 01:58 AM
Its fine.

Bottled up hate
03-28-2012, 02:07 AM
The wrangler needs to have some kind of boot-up time. And reduce the shield. Is the shield even necessary? Is the doubled fire-rate even necessary?

NuclearKangaroo
03-28-2012, 03:26 AM
The wrangler needs to have some kind of boot-up time. And reduce the shield. Is the shield even necessary? Is the doubled fire-rate even necessary?

yes and yes

very

You do realise you can switch to your wrench while using the wrangler, and the shield will remain while it's in its downtime, allowing you to repair at 300% the effectiveness of regular repairing? And then just switch right back and go back to killing everything?


do you realize within that time the sentry is deactivated and the enemy can easily close in to you?

>Saying it's balanced because it only takes 3 people to take down one.

because taking out normal setries is so much easier...

Stevontoast
03-28-2012, 03:53 AM
All I see is F2Ps who cant kill ♥♥♥♥ crying like babies about how OP some weak weapon is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Wbh6MGJdHY
This is REALLY fun.

Ginhyun
03-28-2012, 04:13 AM
At the very least the shield should be less powerful and go away immediately when you switch away from the wrangler.

It'd still be a better option than the pistol most of the time, but at least it wouldn't be as overkill as it currently is.

Smashbrother101
03-28-2012, 04:24 AM
Uhh... This has been discussed to DEATH ever since it's release.

The wrangler CAN be slightly over powered in some circumstances, just because the shield. If the shield were to disperse sooner when the wrangler was swapped out or upon death AND maybe the shield should be decreased slightly, then it would be fine.

But don't expect Valve to change anything (because it's probably not going to happen). Just adjust to it and play on.

DRaGZ
03-28-2012, 04:29 AM
Remove the shield. There is no need for the shield.

Memopirates
03-28-2012, 05:41 AM
Look on the OP's join date.

lol f2p players

im not ftp i was banned from here for bumping my trade threads too much so i had to make another account :/

i suppose you name is pretty fitting, yest its possible to take out a sentry as a solo player if you try and use your environment carefully but the problem is that while sentry slow games down wrangled sentrys are dead on stalemate causers

itm the best lotion is to disable shields while unwrangled and prevent repair while wrangled

nintyuk
03-28-2012, 07:20 AM
Why not? Its not that hard to build and maintain a sentry. If the Engineer is by himself with absolutely no team backup he or his team is playing wrong and should learn better. Having an Engineer deep behind his defense have a sentry that can effectively use an entire uber isn't gonna be easy for any offensive team to win.
In a pub environment maybe but in say highlander getting a effective sentry position up is Hard.
Unless your team has bought you a nice buffer of time to get built up you won't be able to build up a lvl 3 in a worth while wrangle position before your set upon.
But I do agree if left unattended a wrangler caring engy is a serious threat, but before he gets his pet built up he's very vulnerable with only the ability to deal with maybe 1 target before he has to reload and is practically defenceless.

But a pistol engy has a 200 ammo bullet hose that can mop up after 2 shotgun blasts saving the clip for more targets plus harass from afar on enemy medics and distracted targets.

Also if you ever set your sentry up in a position that requires the wrangler to be effective your condemning your sentry to a fruitless death because any team worth their salt can find and exploit weakness mercilessly. You tie the life of your sentry to your own when you use the wrangler, while without it you can effectively gain a powerful tenth player.

Memopirates
03-28-2012, 07:33 AM
In a pub environment maybe but in say highlander getting a effective sentry position up is Hard.
Unless your team has bought you a nice buffer of time to get built up you won't be able to build up a lvl 3 in a worth while wrangle position before your set upon.
But I do agree if left unattended a wrangler caring engy is a serious threat, but before he gets his pet built up he's very vulnerable with only the ability to deal with maybe 1 target before he has to reload and is practically defenceless.

But a pistol engy has a 200 ammo bullet hose that can mop up after 2 shotgun blasts saving the clip for more targets plus harass from afar on enemy medics and distracted targets.

Also if you ever set your sentry up in a position that requires the wrangler to be effective your condemning your sentry to a fruitless death because any team worth their salt can find and exploit weakness mercilessly. You tie the life of your sentry to your own when you use the wrangler, while without it you can effectively gain a powerful tenth player.

that true but balance in tf2 cannot be based on a highlander setting

DoubleGale
03-28-2012, 07:38 AM
I think the fundamental problem here is that you're all pretending you have to use the Wrangler. You gain the option to get all of these ridiculous buffs and turn them on and off at will, in exchange for a pistol only used by battle Engies and Widowmaker Engies.

nintyuk
03-28-2012, 07:40 AM
that true but balance in tf2 cannot be based on a highlander setting
Why not? It's 1 of every class using all of the possible weapons and play styles available to the most effective and efficient premium. The only difference there should be in pubs is a few extra offensive classes filling up the extra 4 slots on each team. It's not the fault of the game that people over stack unnecessary classes and leave important slots empty.

UnrealCanine
03-28-2012, 07:43 AM
why does everyone think manual control is a downside?

Think there's a spy in the room? Sweep the area to be sure

Someone edging? Give them a rocket silo

Someone out of sentry range? Not anymore

shinquickman
03-28-2012, 08:39 AM
Or you could just uber demo and blow ♥♥♥♥ up.

Remember people: LOGICOr you can realize that a Wrangled sentry has triple health that can outlast 7 stickies, and the engineer doesn't have to sit around like a duck while the demo's spamming his bombs.

MORE LOGIC.

xmacro
03-28-2012, 08:44 AM
The funniest thing about this thread is it's full of butthurt children who don't like being killed.

But when I go in-game and actually play, I almost never see the wrangler. And on the rare occasions I do, the engy using it seems to die less than a minute after he pulls it out.

Experience with the weapon trumps some "what if" scenario, and my 3,000 hrs of TF2 say the weapon is fine as it is; it's a situational weapon that makes the engy the #1 target of all 12 members on the opposite team, leading to his quick death, not to mention tunnel vision.

The freebies on this forum need to stop whining and just play the game; they don't have enough experience to comment on weapon balance

TheDL
03-28-2012, 08:59 AM
Wrangler's balanced due to the fact that most engineers are too braindead to know how to use it effectively.

I mean look at the examples in this thread "dur it makes him a #1 target and he has tunnel vision"

So apparently having to even look in the general direction of the enemy = tunnel vision, so people who actually play classes that require aiming (the other 7 classes?) automatically get tunnel vision too.

Hell, to even abuse the wrangler, all you have to do is just play it like a normal sentry and just pull up the shield when an uber comes in, yet most engees are too braindead to even do this.

shinquickman
03-28-2012, 09:12 AM
^Lies. You're just a butthurt F2P noob who doesn't adapt to the situation. You are no better than those tryhard "pro" players who ban all the weapons because they don't know how to deal with them.

Here's a suggestion: TEAMWORK! Take your whole team to take out that wrangled sentry. YOUR WHOLE TEAM. It's completely fair because the engineer needs to learn how to aim his sentry, dodge projectiles, and strafe to avoid fire; something engineers never have to do without the wrangler.

If that doesn't work, just play spy. Spies always win you games when you don't know how to deal with something.

DoubleGale
03-28-2012, 09:35 AM
^Lies. You're just a butthurt F2P noob who doesn't adapt to the situation. You are no better than those tryhard "pro" players who ban all the weapons because they don't know how to deal with them.
Heavy gets an unlock that gives him scout speed and 200% damage in exchange for a pistol. STOP WHINING AND LRN2ADAPT!!!!!!!!!!


Here's a suggestion: TEAMWORK! Take your whole team to take out that wrangled sentry. YOUR WHOLE TEAM.
An entire team to beat one person. Balance!!!


It's completely fair because the engineer needs to learn how to aim his sentry, dodge projectiles, and strafe to avoid fire; something engineers never have to do without the wrangler.
"It's completely fair because the Engineer needs to actually learn how to play like a normal class and doesn't just camp behind his Sentry. Therefore because you have to get used to a weapon for a few hours it is completely balanced for it to take an entire team to beat one person."


If that doesn't work, just play spy. Spies always win you games when you don't know how to deal with something.
... Just stop talking. You're making a fool of yourself. :rolleyes:

shinquickman
03-28-2012, 10:00 AM
Heavy gets an unlock that gives him scout speed and 200% damage in exchange for a pistol. STOP WHINING AND LRN2ADAPT!!!!!!!!!!OMG ROFLMAO the heavy doesn't use a pistol. LRN2PLAY.


An entire team to beat one person. Balance!!!It is balanced because my team is usually too busy capturing the flag in 2Fort to help me defend the spiral staircase.


"It's completely fair because the Engineer needs to actually learn how to play like a normal class and doesn't just camp behind his Sentry. Therefore because you have to get used to a weapon for a few hours it is completely balanced for it to take an entire team to beat one person."Now you're getting it!


... Just stop talking. You're making a fool of yourself. :rolleyes:I see you don't realize the true power of the spy. Don't cry to me when you die by the same bodyshotting sniper across the map 10 times and you don't know what else to do.

DoubleGale
03-28-2012, 10:03 AM
OMG ROFLMAO the heavy doesn't use a pistol. LRN2PLAY.
Mispoke, meant Shotgun. :rolleyes:


It is balanced because my team is usually too busy capturing the flag in 2Fort to help me defend the spiral staircase.
I'm playing on an incompetent 2fort server so that justifies it!!

Good designers don't balance around incompetents. And how dare they actually have some offense rather than just deathmatch randomly.


Now you're getting it!
Either you're trolling, or deserve a ban from the balance discussion forums.


I see you don't realize the true power of the spy.
:rolleyes:

KingOfMars27
03-28-2012, 10:05 AM
Might want to work on the sarcasm detection, DoubleGale.

shinquickman
03-28-2012, 10:13 AM
No, I wasn't being sarcastic. I was enlightening all these F2P noobs to the truth. Kappa (http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcScK9omWul7UHyA109TxP-eSmcfzvST2tjtJf_b86dL4OM_nHwsK-fosoPZOA)

raptor67
03-28-2012, 10:24 AM
Maybe the wrangler is balanced when the team who uses it has no idea what they are doing but currently you can simply tank your sentry and shut down an area. Period.
I suggest that the shield strength is decreased to 33% and that the shield instantly dissapears when switching away from the wrangler/dying.
Possibly combined with no repairing when sentry is in downtime.