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Magnamancy
04-15-2012, 05:10 AM
A thread to put forth and systematically analyze, and tweak as
necessary if possible, suggestions for changes for the Beta
Enforcer.

Voting will happen when suggestions are satisfied, and all
ideas are either accepted as plausible and go into the poll or
discarded as foolish and dropped.



**CURRENT IDEA IN DISCUSSION**

(29.)
Damage bonus is based on current ammo in clip
Correct disguise reload sounds
Single type reload (What shotguns have for example, reloads one by one.)
6 ammo loaded means +25% damage bonus
5 ammo loaded means +15% damage bonus
4 ammo loaded means +5% damage bonus
3 ammo loaded means -5% damage bonus
2 ammo loaded means -15% damage bonus
1 ammo loaded means -25% damage bonus

******************************

The Questions:

1. What would the idea's effect be?
1a. Does it address previous issues?
1b. Could it be balanced?

2. What would be wrong with this idea?
2a. What does it fail to address?
2b. Is it unbalanced?

3. Is there anything that could improve this idea, and if so, what?




~~Suggested Ideas~~

29.
Damage bonus is based on current ammo in clip
Correct disguise reload sounds
Single type reload (What shotguns have for example, reloads one by one.)
6 ammo loaded means +25% damage bonus
5 ammo loaded means +15% damage bonus
4 ammo loaded means +5% damage bonus
3 ammo loaded means -5% damage bonus
2 ammo loaded means -15% damage bonus
1 ammo loaded means -25% damage bonus

XX.
+Y
-Z

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



++Accepted As Plausible++

7. (Lots of debate concerning methods of issue addressing, pages 4-7)
If user has at least 15% cloak:
+20% damage
-15 cloak on shot
If user has less than 15% cloak:
-10% damage

9. (Didn't elicit any against arguments)
+50% max ramp-up
-15% damage penalty
Cannot crit and minicrit under any circumstances

10. (Lots of debate concerning feasible reaction time, part of pages 8 and 9)
+20% damage
35% slower firing speed
Cannot crit or minicrit under any circumstances

24. (No counter arguments)
+20% damage bonus
Cannot activate cloak without a full clip
Cannot reload unless the clip is empty
Cannot crit

+++++++++++++++++++



--Discarded As Foolish--

1. (Didn't elicit any pro discussion)
One guaranteed Mini-crit for every Backstab
+15% Critical Damage
-30% Firing Speed

2. (Still 2shots, better options)
+15% damage bonus
20% slower firing speed
Cannot see enemy health at all

3. (Discussion pointed out the untenably bad downside.)
+20% damage bonus
0.5 sec increase in time taken to cloak
Dead Ringer protection lowered to 60%

4. (Downside is negligible even with a reduced upside)
+20% firing speed
Cannot see enemy health

5. (Discarded in favor of 7)
+20% damage
-10 cloak on shot

6. (Discarded in favor of 7)
+20% damage
-15 cloak on shot

8. (Minor to non existent upside and downside)
-0.5 sec cloak time
+0.5 sec decloak time

11/19. (Not enough by a silly degree. Little to no support.)
+20% damage bonus
1 sec increase in time taken to cloak
1 sec arming delay on feign death

12. (Too much, little to no support)
+20% damage bonus.
30% slower firing speed.
-10 cloak on shot.

13. (almost instant cloaking, esp. if scripted, no support)
+20% damage bonus.
Cannot activate cloak while active.

14/16. (Combat ignored downside and poor otherwise, no support)
+10% damage bonus.
-15% cloak recovered from ammo sources

15. (Not bad, but not enough support. Pages 10/11)
+20% damage bonus.
-25 max health on wearer

17. (Unlikely downside change, lackluster downsides otherwise. Pages 10/11)
+20% damage bonus.
-20 Cloak on every decloak
Cannot see enemy health (disguised or not)
Old bullet spread and accuracy recovery

18. (Irrelevant downsides, no support)
+20% damage bonus.
0.5 increased cloak time
Unable to see enemy health
No random Critical hits

20. (Halfhazard, little support)
+20% increase in damage when health <50% of max
-20% decrease in damage when health >50% of max

21. (Too much of a rework, plays out like 9 anyway)
+20% damage bonus.
Short Stop pellet number and spread
No Random Crits

22. (Didn't elicit any pro arguments)
+20% Damage bonus
Jams for three seconds if fired during cooldown.

23. (It's viability relies on reworks of this)
100% minicrits from behind
normal damage from the sides
-35% damage while the target is facing you

25. (Forces using the YER, which is unanimously called out)
+35% Damage bonus while disguised
-15% Damage reduction while undisguised
Can't use disguise kit

26. (Vague and self contradictory)
Minicrits when headshotting
+20% Rampup damage
-20% Falloff damage
-10% accuracy

27. (Much too weak in actual combat, unfair Kunai shenanigans)
+15% dmg
damage is scaled down with user health percentage lost

28. (Discussed to death previously, no discussion at all now)
Shortstop pellet number, spread and damage
Shotgun rate of fire and 'single chamber at a time' reload

-----------------------------


This is what was wrong with the previous Enforcer:

The downsides don't really work/are negligible at best/don't
affect combat like the upside does.
- The extra decloak time doesn't seem to affect as much as the
extra time despite being universal/or is just as insignificant,
and isn't very noticeable at all.
- The inability to see health is voided by disguising, to be a
valid nerf it'd have to be active at all times.

The 20% damage upside doesn't feel justified/is too powerful for
the tradeoff, and the Spy didn't really need it to begin with.
- Having crossed the damage threshold you become able to twoshot
light classes with it.


And before that:

It's waaay too powerful and even more of a straight upgrade with the DR! D:




Discussions will happen in order of post.
Go for it gentlemen.

TheSentryIsaSpy
04-15-2012, 05:30 AM
The whole reverse L'etranger idea....I wouldn't mind that one, considering that the downside would actually give strong synergy with the Big Earner. Since it wastes cloak, you can use the Big Earner to get cloak back if you need it.


But if we're going to nerf Enforcer in that manner.....could we please buff the Big Earner by changing the downside? Pretty please Valve :(

ChaoSynergy
04-15-2012, 06:10 AM
One guaranteed Mini-crit for every Backstab
+15% Critical Damage
-30% Firing Speed

Doesn't deal as much damage as it does now, does somewhere around 60 or something per mini-crit. So it retains its potency just in a way that players have to earn it.

Shradow
04-15-2012, 08:34 AM
I like the Beta changes, with tweaks.

+15% damage bonus
20% slower firing speed
Cannot see enemy health

Just make it so that you still can't see health even while disguised, because whether or not it's a bug or intended, it shouldn't work like that.

ENDiT
04-15-2012, 09:17 AM
THE ENFORCER
+20% damage bonus
0.5 sec increase in time taken to cloak
Dead Ringer protection lowered to 60%

GameKnut
04-15-2012, 03:12 PM
Enforcer
+20% firing speed
Cannot see enemy health

No more two-shotting light classes, no more critical 1-hit-kills on light classes, more stringent aiming requirements if you want to take full advantage of its bonus, doesn't radically change the purpose of the weapon.

Quoting myself from another thread, with slight modification.

Changing its damage bonus into a rate-of-fire bonus really seems like the best way to make the Enforcer better than the Revolver in a fight while eliminating the possibility of two-shot kills and one-crit kills.

The downside's a little harder to decide on, but I think being unable to see enemy health (and consequently their names) would be the best downside for it. However, to really make this work, we'd need Valve to remove the vestigial pre-December 17th, 2010 code that gives all disguised spies the ability to see enemy health. I'm fairly certain the only reason it hasn't been removed in the Beta is that they just haven't remembered it yet.

KajiVena
04-15-2012, 03:23 PM
Three versions of basically the same thing:

Version 1:
The Enforcer
Level 5 Revolver
+20% damage
-10 cloak on shot

Version 2:
The Enforcer
Level 5 Revolver
+20% damage
-15 cloak on shot

Version 3 (by BlazeMasterFire):

The Enforcer
Level 5 Revolver
If user has at least 15% cloak:
+20% damage
-15 cloak on shot
If user does has 14% or less cloak:
-10% damage

DualJay
04-15-2012, 04:30 PM
The Enforcer
Level X Revolver
+0.5 seconds faster cloak
+0.5 decloak time

Good for getaways. +damage on the revolver is boring, if it is just a straight buff, not headshots etc.

r_a_k
04-16-2012, 03:47 AM
"shotgun" version
+50% max ramp-up
-15% damage penalty
Cannot crit and minicrit under any circumstances
Idea is to make Enforcer weaker than standard revolver in
middle-to-long range. Maximum damage is also lowered from
current state (72->68), which means 2-shoting light classes
becomes unlikely if not at absolutely point blank range.
"No crits" part is a serious, albeit situational, penalty.

and

"slow hammer" version
+20% damage
35% slower firing speed
Cannot crit and minicrit under any circumstances
Going along with Valve idea about changing Enforcer, this tweak is to:
- make "response window" for scout/engie wider (0.783 sec between shots is enough to fire shotgun twice and write haiku..)
- make internal balance of Enforcer-Stock Revolver more fair
No crits, as in previous proposition, makes you unable to benefit fron jarrate, buff, kritz etc - perhaps situational but still important.

Keybored6522
04-16-2012, 08:27 AM
So, we just dump all of our Enforcer stat ideas here? Well, I guess it wouldn't hurt...

THE ENFORCER
Level 5 Revolver
+20% damage bonus
1 sec increase in time taken to cloak
1 sec arming delay on feign death


The main complaint about the current Enforcer is that the half second cloak delay is already too minor a downside, but it just becomes a straight upgrade when you're using the Dead Ringer, right? So, why not fix those? If the cloak delay was an entire second long, then it might actually make a difference in combat. Did you pick the weapon that lets you be a battle Spy instead of running away with your cloak? Then you're going to four pink heartsing play battle Spy and not run away with your cloak. You're going to have to fight your way out because your cloak takes too long to activate in the middle of a fight.

And for the Dead Ringer, all we have to do is make the downside apply to that as well. How the 'arming delay' would work is like this - when you pull out the Dead Ringer, its meter will be empty and taking damage won't fake your death. Over exactly one second, a yellow-colored meter will fill back in, and once it's at 100%, the meter will turn back to the standard blue and the feign death will actually work. There you go, now the downside applies to every watch!

Stric_Matic
04-17-2012, 08:34 AM
"shotgun" version
+50% max ramp-up
-15% damage penalty
Cannot crit and minicrit under any circumstances
Idea is to make Enforcer weaker than standard revolver in
middle-to-long range. Maximum damage is also lowered from
current state (72->68), which means 2-shoting light classes
becomes unlikely if not at absolutely point blank range.
"No crits" part is a serious, albeit situational, penalty.



I like the concept of increased ramp-up and fall-off (or less base damage like you suggest) but maybe not such an extreme one. Imo, the ramp-up should work in a cone ONLY from behind and to a certain range. Close range. That way the gun is weaker in direct, self-defense firefights and long-range shoot-outs but allows you to perform a kind of poor man's, ranged, 2-shot ''backstab'' from outside knife range. Of course even in those circumstances (from behind, relatively close range) it shouldn't deal more than 20-30% more than the Stock damage.


Edit: any kind of flat damage bonus or a ramp-up from the front is crap as Pyros, Soldiers and other combat classes are punished for getting close to a Spy and pursuing him aggresively, which is what they should be doing.

Magnamancy
04-17-2012, 09:04 AM
Okay, updated the first post with ideas, and one that I figured
needed to be put forth for discussion's sake, totaling 12 thus far.

Suggestions are still welcome, but we can start discussing
suggested ideas concerning applicability, suitability and accept
as an option/tweak if necessary/trash it.



This is what was wrong with the previous Enforcer:

The downsides don't really work/are negligible at best/don't
affect combat like the upside does.
- The extra decloak time doesn't seem to affect as much as the
extra time despite being universal/or is just as insignificant,
and isn't very noticeable at all.
- The inability to see health is voided by disguising, to be a
valid nerf it'd have to be active at all times.

The 20% damage upside doesn't feel justified/is too powerful for
the tradeoff, and the Spy didn't really need it to begin with.
- Having crossed the damage threshold you become able to twoshot
light classes with it.


And before that:

It's waaay too powerful and even more of a straight upgrade with the DR! D:



The Questions:

1. What would the idea's effect be?
1a. Does it address previous issues?
1b. Could it be balanced?

2. What would be wrong with this idea?
2a. What does it fail to address?
2b. Is it unbalanced?

3. Is there anything that could improve this idea, and if so, what?



Idea to discuss now as noted in the OP:

One guaranteed Mini-crit for every Backstab
+15% Critical Damage
-30% Firing Speed



The questions are there as a guide. :)

Edit: And if any given idea receives no discussion at all I'm trashing it. :>

Rologton
04-17-2012, 09:47 AM
Cannot activate cloak while active.

cheeseboy
04-17-2012, 12:31 PM
The Enforcer
+10% damage bonus
-15% cloak recovered from ammo sources

I don't know, as long as the Enforcer has that huge damage bonus it'll still be annoying, if not OP. Maybe something like "Can't see enemy health when undisguised" can be added.

The current idea in discussion also seems to be good, but I would think the concept of the Enforcer should be to have an immediate damage bonus so you can use the revolver better as a fail safe but not for battle spy, while taking away some of your stealth.

ChaoSynergy
04-17-2012, 12:52 PM
Just a heads up, apparently the Enforcer was tweaked in the Beta again. They tacked on No Random Crits along with the -20% Firing Speed and Can't See Enemy Health penalties.

BlazeFireMaster
04-17-2012, 04:07 PM
Yay. my idea is on here. Haha.

The numbers can be tweaked, of course. I still say 20% more damage, even at the cost of 15% cloak, is a bit much. Maybe 15% damage and 10% cloak.

TurtleKing
04-18-2012, 12:01 AM
THE ENFORCER
Level 5 Revolver
+20% damage bonus
-25 max health on wearer


Obviously, this would require The downside for the Big Earner to be changed, but I think the majority of spies would actually want that to happen.

Reason for stats: It actually fits the "battle-spy" theme better in my opinion. He is easier to kill now, in exchange for extra-fire power.

r_a_k
04-18-2012, 01:03 AM
Just a heads up, apparently the Enforcer was tweaked in the Beta again. They tacked on No Random Crits along with the -20% Firing Speed and Can't See Enemy Health penalties.

so, in its current Beta state it is:

+20% dmg
20% slower firing speed
cannot see enemy health when undisguised
no random critical hits

---
as for main topic:

(...)
**CURRENT IDEA IN DISCUSSION**


(1.)

One guaranteed Mini-crit for every Backstab
+15% Critical Damage
-30% Firing Speed

(...)

It is interesting idea, however I still dream of making Wanga Prick spy equivalent of Eyelander (gathering some hp and some speed for each stab, capped ofc at proper level) - and if not Wanga, then we should (sooner or later) see such knife.
That would overlap with it.

Otherwise, I don't have much problem with idea as such.

Anon K
04-18-2012, 01:08 PM
Those ideas are all very stupid.

The enforcer doesn't need a nerf at all.

All that needs to be done is remove the ability to see enemy health when it is equipped. If that.

But it's gonna get nerfed because the bad medics, demomen, scouts and razorback snipers of the world will choke the rivers with their tears until they get what they want.

Rologton
04-18-2012, 06:12 PM
THE ENFORCER
Level 5 Revolver
+20% damage bonus
-25 max health on wearer


Still wouldn't adress the problem.

The problem is that the weapon allows you to easily dispatch most enemies, than you can just DR away and pop up 5 seconds later. Giving him less health doesn't really change his ability to do that.

roamzero
04-18-2012, 06:25 PM
This is pretty much what I felt the stats should be since people have been discussing nerfing it:

+20% damage
-20 Cloak on every decloak
-Cannot see enemy health (disguised or not)
-Old bullet spread and accuracy recovery

And give all the other revolvers the same scaling spread cooldown as the Ambassador, .98s to full recovery. Leave the Enforcer with the old revolver spread and binary recovery.

TurtleKing
04-19-2012, 04:50 PM
Still wouldn't adress the problem.

The problem is that the weapon allows you to easily dispatch most enemies, than you can just DR away and pop up 5 seconds later. Giving him less health doesn't really change his ability to do that.

Yes, it does. He now has to play carefully if he wants the 2-shots to matter.

Does a Kunai spy go Rambo just because he has the Dead Ringer? In this scenario he will have the advantage from the start, but how is that different from a back-stab or ambassador spy?

"Well they have to be play stealthy with back-stabs. And ambassador requires good aim."

Well, now he will have to play it safe since he has less health from the start (AKA the Kunai Effect).

The reason why people dislike the Big Earner is because the upside is not worth the downside. Now in this case it's actually worth it.

StarCraft
04-19-2012, 06:06 PM
Enforcer Stats should be:

The Enforcer
+20% damage bonus
0.5 increased cloak time
Unable to see enemy health
No random Critical hits


revert back to previous changes, add 0.5 sec to bring up (delay) / activate the dead ringer, makes you more cautious of when you need to cloak like before, except with all watches, unable to see enemy health and no random criticals make it a sidegrade with the increased added cloak time with the revolver.


can't have -hp stats to the enforcer, since we have the kunai, unless you want 25hp-35hp base spies running around, the enforcer doesn't need a major nerf, like cloak drain on hit, or decrease ammo percentage for cloak refill, can't make it -30% Firing Speed or slower, than it would do the same damage, or less than the revolver, which defeats the purpose of the gun to do more damage, might as well make it a reskin at that point. all it does is 4-12 damage respectively increase depending on range, it doesn't need a huge nerf, just make it like I said, its not a major nerf has downsides that balance it with the standard revolver, makes you think with the weapon like before, except applies to all watches like before with no random crits.


0.5 secs does make a difference in the dead ringer delay time, that's the difference between dodging or evading a crit rocket, by pulling up the dead ringer activating the feign death or not, you can't activate it instantly no more, and everybody that plays with it in TF2 (not beta) with the invisible watches already knows that it does effect the invisible watches cloak time moderately right now, as well.

thank you.

TurtleKing
04-19-2012, 07:31 PM
can't have -hp stats to the enforcer, since we have the kunai, unless you want 25hp-35hp base spies running around,

Star that's the player's problem if he/she decide to equip both at the same time.

Technically, they still can play with both equip (they don't die till 1st-hit).

What we need is valve to get a volunteer or themselves to actually use TF2 Beta. That is the problem with the enforcer, and all the other upgrade/downgrade/OP/UP items.

If it weren't for TF2 lobby and UGC, I would have ditched this game after the Uber update.

Shradow
04-19-2012, 08:31 PM
I don't see why people want an idea that's like an anti-L'etranger. Do they want to promote Battle Spies?

Argeon
04-19-2012, 08:36 PM
Here you go.


http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2634059

StarCraft
04-19-2012, 08:39 PM
I don't see why people want an idea that's like an anti-L'etranger. Do they want to promote Battle Spies?

I just think you should never penalize anyone for aiming correctly.

just a rule.

Munkyman720
04-19-2012, 08:40 PM
20% damage bonus
1.0 sec increase in time taken to cloak

And then fix the Dead Ringer, but that's a separate discussion.

Strings
04-19-2012, 08:50 PM
Uses cloak as ammo

KajiVena
04-19-2012, 08:51 PM
I don't see why people want an idea that's like an anti-L'etranger. Do they want to promote Battle Spies?Spies using their gun is not "Battle Spy".

And if they were going to go "Battle Spy", chances are, they wouldn't hit any of their shots so they're just gimping themselves.

Shradow
04-19-2012, 08:56 PM
Spies using their gun is not "Battle Spy".

And if they were going to go "Battle Spy", chances are, they wouldn't hit any of their shots so they're just gimping themselves.

I'd say someone using a weapon that penalizes the very thing Spies are known for and drastically changing the playstyle from sneaking to shooting counts.

TurtleKing
04-19-2012, 09:58 PM
Spies using their gun is not "Battle Spy".

And if they were going to go "Battle Spy", chances are, they wouldn't hit any of their shots so they're just gimping themselves.

I kind of agree. -cloak per shot would probably be better. He gets punished for hitting the target?

KajiVena
04-19-2012, 10:06 PM
I kind of agree. -cloak per shot would probably be better. He gets punished for hitting the target?Extra damage means he has to hit targets less, and can better pick off fleeing targets. In addition, unless he's a CnD Spy, he's already going to be looking for ammo (crates, weapons) so there's no huge issue there.

Magnamancy
04-20-2012, 12:29 AM
The current idea to suss out is:

1.
One guaranteed Mini-crit for every Backstab
+15% Critical Damage
-30% Firing Speed


And the global questions are:

1. What would the idea's effect be?
1a. Does it address previous issues?
1b. Could it be balanced?

2. What would be wrong with this idea?
2a. What does it fail to address?
2b. Is it unbalanced?

3. Is there anything that could improve this idea, and if so, what?



R_A_K suggested that it might unfavorably overlap with a
possible eyelanderlike knife unlock, but it wasn't otherwise
very problematic in his eyes.


I can't go through everyone elses threads and babysit ideas
Argeon, I tried that already and it was an impossible workload,
I'm sorry. Post anything you want to get into discussion here
by all means though.

Magnamancy
04-21-2012, 12:06 AM
Okay, since (1.) didn't draw any discussion in favor of it, or
much at all, heading straight into the next idea.

(2.)

+15% damage bonus
20% slower firing speed
Cannot see enemy health at all


Same questions as above as a guide if necessary.

cheeseboy
04-21-2012, 07:34 AM
I really preferred the first suggested idea over the current one in discussion. I think that the Enforcer will be OP as long as it has an insane damage bonus...also, the current idea in discussion has downside that all make it harder to play battle spy with it.

The Enforcer is supposed to be a falloff weapon that's always more reliable in case you get caught, but has to be pulled out more since it's downsides are supposed to affect a spy's sneakiness. The current idea just promotes and demotes battle spy at the same time, without affecting his ability to get behind the enemy or get away from them, via cloaking.

TurtleKing
04-21-2012, 09:07 AM
Okay, since (1.) didn't draw any discussion in favor of it, or
much at all, heading straight into the next idea.

(2.)

+15% damage bonus
20% slower firing speed
Cannot see enemy health at all


Same questions as above as a guide if necessary.

The damage is still a little high. In-game about how much would 2 shots take from a 125hp class?

Magnamancy
04-22-2012, 04:04 AM
+15% makes the base damage 46 instead of 48.
Rampup is 150%, So the point-blank damage is 69, instead of 72.
It still 2 shots, just at a slightly shorter range.

On running the numbers, even +5% damage allows 2shots, because
the Revolver's base damage was just outside the threshold.
Worth mentioning.



It was noted in the first post's mentioned analysis that the
Enforcer's previous problems included it's downsides not
affecting combat like it's upsides Cheese, you're going to need
to reason your claim that nerfing stealth while not nerfing
combat is viable.

r_a_k
04-22-2012, 05:22 AM
Like I've repeated several times - 20% slower firing speed gives enemy enough time to fire shotgun twice before Spy can fire 2nd bullet, so any AWARE (spychecking with bullets :D) enemy should be safe from 2-shoting. We can discuss how wide should response window be (my fav is 35% slower firing speed instead of 20%), but noone sane can cry about 2shoting anymore.

I think that could [2] be one of solutions, although not my preferred one.

FrozenFireBug
04-22-2012, 05:41 AM
I like 6. Pretty much solves all balance issues with the Enforcer, making it less usable with the Dead Ringer.

TurtleKing
04-22-2012, 02:01 PM
+15% makes the base damage 46 instead of 48.
Rampup is 150%, So the point-blank damage is 69, instead of 72.
It still 2 shots, just at a slightly shorter range.

On running the numbers, even +5% damage allows 2shots, because
the Revolver's base damage was just outside the threshold.
Worth mentioning.



It was noted in the first post's mentioned analysis that the
Enforcer's previous problems included it's downsides not
affecting combat like it's upsides Cheese, you're going to need
to reason your claim that nerfing stealth while not nerfing
combat is viable.
In that case, no. Like Rak mentioned, it needs a little more. The problem I have with enforcer, is that is not balanced vs the other revolver. It should be balanced in a 1vs1 duel with the other ones.

Magnamancy
04-22-2012, 06:27 PM
Okay, given that 2's response was mildly more positive than 1's
I've thrown it in the maybe pile. Next up.

(3.)

+20% damage bonus
0.5 sec increase in time taken to cloak
Dead Ringer protection lowered to 60%

KajiVena
04-22-2012, 06:32 PM
Solution 3 does not take into consideration other possible instant cloak options that Spy may get in the future, and has a really minor downside, almost unnoticable, with the IW and CnD.

Magnamancy
04-23-2012, 04:20 AM
I entirely agree Kaji, I'll scrap 3 by tomorrow if no one cares to
rebut.

Magnamancy
04-23-2012, 11:15 PM
Alrighty then! This is going faster than I thought it would. =]


Current idea for discussion:

(4.)

+20% firing speed
Cannot see enemy health

r_a_k
04-24-2012, 03:26 AM
I am not sure about that whole "Cannot see enemy health". See, most people I play with (at least on regular basis) do call damage dealt to enemies (for example "Soldier hit for 100"). Rest is basic math, you do with damage indicators (because, honestly, most people use them).

So, sure - "cannot see enemy health" can be _additional_ downside, but not a main one.

Also, not sure if it fits visually - Enforcer seems big caliber, shot nosed gun, why should it fire faster?

Magnamancy
04-24-2012, 03:25 PM
I am not sure about that whole "Cannot see enemy health". See, most people I play with (at least on regular basis) do call damage dealt to enemies (for example "Soldier hit for 100"). Rest is basic math, you do with damage indicators (because, honestly, most people use them).

So, sure - "cannot see enemy health" can be _additional_ downside, but not a main one.

Also, not sure if it fits visually - Enforcer seems big caliber, shot nosed gun, why should it fire faster?

I don't think visual suitability is super important, because
stuff like the L'Etranger doesn't hook up to the watch or the
YER have any visual means of doing what it does for instance. =p

I agree though, not being able to see enemy health just isn't
enough alone, even for a simple fire rate increase.

Aquasition
04-24-2012, 03:58 PM
How about:
+ 20% damage boost
Spread-Fires(Think Shotgun/Scattergun) like a Shortstop
No Random Crits

CheeseSandvich
04-24-2012, 04:10 PM
4's downside is almost non-existant. If you're using the Enforcer, you really don't need to pick and choose your victims like you do with the other revolvers.

I'm guessing that 5 and 6 will be discussed simultaneously?

KajiVena
04-24-2012, 04:34 PM
Preferably, 5, 6 and 7 will all be discussed together since they're all basically the same thing with minor differences between them.

I'm in a horrible wifi zone while typing this reply so I'm only guessing that 5-7 are from my post.

Magnamancy
04-24-2012, 07:15 PM
I see no reason not to discuss 5, 6, and 7 in one go. =p

Edit: Discarded 4 for sheer unviability of the downside,
put up 5, 6, and 7 for discussion, added suggestions from
this thread and a pm for whatever reason.


Alright Kaji, keeping in mind that suggestions are as
malleable as necessary if you want to change anything, the
problems from previous Enforcers were:

The downsides don't really work/are negligible at best/don't
affect combat like the upside does.
- The extra decloak time doesn't seem to affect as much as the
extra time despite being universal/or is just as insignificant,
and isn't very noticeable at all.
- The inability to see health is voided by disguising, to be a
valid nerf it'd have to be active at all times.

The 20% damage upside doesn't feel justified/is too powerful for
the tradeoff, and the Spy didn't really need it to begin with.
- Having crossed the damage threshold you become able to twoshot
light classes with it.

And before that:

It's waaay too powerful and even more of a straight upgrade with the DR! D:


And guidline questions for those who want them:

1. What would the idea's effect be?
1a. Does it address previous issues?
1b. Could it be balanced?

2. What would be wrong with this idea?
2a. What does it fail to address?
2b. Is it unbalanced?

3. Is there anything that could improve this idea, and if so, what?



Lets make something work. :)

KajiVena
04-24-2012, 08:23 PM
I see no reason not to discuss 5, 6, and 7 in one go. =pSweet.

Alright Kaji, keeping in mind that suggestions are as
malleable as necessary if you want to change anything, the
problems from previous Enforcers were:

The downsides don't really work/are negligible at best/don't
affect combat like the upside does.
- The extra decloak time doesn't seem to affect as much as the
extra time despite being universal/or is just as insignificant,
and isn't very noticeable at all.
- The inability to see health is voided by disguising, to be a
valid nerf it'd have to be active at all times.

The 20% damage upside doesn't feel justified/is too powerful for
the tradeoff, and the Spy didn't really need it to begin with.
- Having crossed the damage threshold you become able to twoshot
light classes with it.

And before that:

It's waaay too powerful and even more of a straight upgrade with the DR! D:Still remember them :P


And guidline questions for those who want them:

1. What would the idea's effect be? - Becomes much less useful with the Dead Ringer, punishes missing/spamming shots and rewards accuracy with extra damage.
1a. Does it address previous issues? - Yes.
1b. Could it be balanced? - Quite possibly.

2. What would be wrong with this idea? - Downside may be too strong.
2a. What does it fail to address? - The ability to two shot light classes, but the downside is pretty strong.
2b. Is it unbalanced? - Possibly.

3. Is there anything that could improve this idea, and if so, what? - May consider tightening spread or running with idea 5 over idea 6 or 7. Could maybe use a new version that combines 5 with 7.



Lets make something work. :)Okay.

r_a_k
04-25-2012, 01:45 AM
@5, 6 an 7 a.k.a. +dmg -cloak

Argument raised against current Beta Enforcer is, that it can still 2-shot light classes. Yet, when you think about it, with Beta Enforcer you stand LESS chance to 2-shot such scout or engie (since they can react by 2-shoting you faster, due to slower firing speed that gives them time for it!) than with changes proposed under numbers 5, 6 and 7.
Having +20% dmg with downside of cloak cost makes nothing to stop you from what you can do now - fire bullet at eng/scout, soak that 90 dmg they fire, kill them with 2nd bullet.
Sure, you have it harder to escape, but again - 2 bullets wont eat your whole cloak, so it actually affects only DR Spy.

Also, I don't like ideas that mix totally different aspects in attempt of balancing. Best solutions are those, where both upside and downside are touching the same subject (look at kunai - less health, grants overheal). When we are increasing damage, we should balance it by either user's lower health (so, you deal more damage but you also can tank less), or by way it is applied (slower firing, bigger spread, slower spread recovery etc).

You never know what's behind the corner, what next weapon will be there - and I can imagine Valve publishing something that grants extra cloak regen, which would bring us back to square one. With "selfbalancing" weapons you are free from such risk - for even if they introduce item that modifies your HP/firing speed/spread/etc then you are still benefiting from it more with stock revolver.

tl/dr: +dmg -cloak versions are bad ideas, for they do nothing to stop 2-shoting light classes, downside affects only DR spy AND you never know if it won't be negated with next unlock (watch/knife/sapper)

roamzero
04-25-2012, 02:20 AM
tl/dr: +dmg -cloak versions are bad ideas, for they do nothing to stop 2-shoting light classes, downside affects only DR spy AND you never know if it won't be negated with next unlock (watch/knife/sapper)

Should light classes have much of a chance if they let a spy gets within mere steps of backstab range? Even with the current Enforcer you need to be pretty close to kill in 2 shots.

r_a_k
04-25-2012, 02:43 AM
@roamzero - 2-shoting is argument brought most often in Enforcer discussions, and with current dmg it isn't exactly backstab range, more like 2-3 ingame meters. And while I do, totally, agree that allowing Spy to get into 2-shot range without him being spychecked is his victim/enemy team fault, not everyone agreed.
I just wanted to show, that current Beta Enforcer does more to prevent such situation, that variants 5,6 and 7.

Another thing is distance and circumstances on which said 2-shoting should happen. Please observe that in my propositions (9 and 10) Spy is limited either with distance (required closer than current one to even think about 2-shoting) or by enemy response (35% slower firing speed). 5/6/7 variants do not modify current "2-shoting" problem at all, the don't address neither distance nor time.

Magnamancy
04-25-2012, 02:53 AM
Should light classes have much of a chance if they let a spy gets within mere steps of backstab range? Even with the current Enforcer you need to be pretty close to kill in 2 shots.

From within 180 degrees in front of them?

Spy kills from behind in one go, the class is balanced around it,
but the class is not balanced around being able to sweep away
other light classes with minimal effort.



So, +Damage/-Cloak does act as a nerf, but it doesn't address
2shotability. What is something that does address 2shotability
that could feasibly work as a second downside?

r_a_k
04-25-2012, 03:37 AM
(..)
So, +Damage/-Cloak does act as a nerf, but it doesn't address
2shotability. What is something that does address 2shotability
that could feasibly work as a second downside?

"2shotability" (nice term btw) can affected either by effective range (so, dmg bonus or max ramp-up) or firing speed (obviously) or spread recovery or.. moving target (will be back to it in a second)

Question is, should we look for extra pentalty while having severe one (taking away part of cloak is big pentalty). I mean, shouldn't we just say this is bad idea and jump to next one?

(and now back to moving target) -> more like suggestion and perhaps added new way of thinking with some examples than actual discussion about 5/6/7 variants

While writting this, an idea came to me - since max dmg is dependent on distance (max ramp-up), so what if distance would be increased after hitting enemy? How it can be done.. add knockback to enforcer effects. I can hear it "ZOMG KNOCKBACK SO OP!!!111one".. not really - we, Spy players, do love to have enemy in one good place to kill them, and knockback would be working for most time as a downside rather than an upside. So, how about this:

Enforcer
knockbacks victim on bullet hit
+10% dmg
cannot crit or minicrit

10% dmg means, we have 44 base dmg, with max ramp-up 66. 2-shoting is still possible (2x66=132), but firing distance is 10% closer than with current enforcer AND after first shot you have to MOVE towards victim to compensate for knockback part.

We could discuss knockback actual force, for me it would be ideal to have about 1 ingame meter with full ramp-up dmg (66), decreasing with dmg falloff (with mid-range dmg of 44 to be just a little shake).

in case 10% dmg is too good even with knockback, we can think about

Enforcer
knockbacks victim on bullet hit
+50% max ramp-up
-15% dmg
cannot crit or minicrit

still, my point with this is how it would work with increasing distance to victim with each bullet..

edit: not to derail discussion, please just add it to ideas and we can be back to "knockback" if/when we have time for it ;)

KajiVena
04-25-2012, 07:34 AM
tl/dr: +dmg -cloak versions are bad ideas, for they do nothing to stop 2-shoting light classes, downside affects only DR spy AND you never know if it won't be negated with next unlock (watch/knife/sapper)1) What stops it from 2-shotting light classes? - Nothing, but it punishes missing by removing the Spy's ability to cloak and run away if he cannot hit them. Sure, two shotting light classes is possible, but then again, the only time this will ever really matter is if you find the enemy Engineer or Sniper and if you miss, you'll be punished. Hell, two-shotting light classes becomes the main, noticeable upside to the Enforcer (if you can do it) with an actual downside.

2) Downside affects only DR? - Seriously? CnD's cloak, that is limited by not being able to pick up ammo, is seriously affected and IW becomes much more cautious when it comes to gunplay because every time you fire you lose cloak and if you fire more than three times (this is a guarantee usually), you'll not be able to replenish your cloak through ammo cases fast enough. Don't assume things within a 100% accuracy vacuum kthnx.

3) Upside negated by the next unlock? - LOL! If Valve somehow ♥♥♥♥s up and introduces a weapon that includes +15 cloak on Revolver shot (which is very highly unlikely in comparison to including other instant-cloaking watches) then, even then, the Enforcer will have a downside, which will be whatever the downside of the new unlock would be. But you're honestly going to poke at this ridiculously small hole on the off-chance of a weapon existing that negates the downside of the Enforcer?


Seriously? These are the best counter arguments you could come up with? :rolleyes:

r_a_k
04-25-2012, 07:50 AM
1) What stops it from 2-shotting light classes? - Nothing, but it punishes missing by removing the Spy's ability to cloak and run away if he cannot hit them. Sure, two shotting light classes is possible, but then again, the only time this will ever really matter is if you find the enemy Engineer or Sniper and if you miss, you'll be punished. Hell, two-shotting light classes becomes the main, noticeable upside to the Enforcer (if you can do it) with an actual downside.

2) Downside affects only DR? - Seriously? CnD's cloak, that is limited by not being able to pick up ammo, is seriously affected and IW becomes much more cautious when it comes to gunplay because every time you fire you lose cloak and if you fire more than three times (this is a guarantee usually), you'll not be able to replenish your cloak through ammo cases fast enough. Don't assume things within a 100% accuracy vacuum kthnx.

First - if you miss then we aren't talking about 2-shotting.

Second - it doesn't punish other watches than DR, because - let's face it - you can run helluva distance with 70% cloak. Sure, you cannot DR just after kill, but there is NOTHING that stops you from going invis with CnD or IW. Dunno how about you, but I would like to have Enforcer being balanced and good with all watches, not just with DR ;D

Third - you assume that Spy would stand there and pump damage till he runs out of cloak? I'd rather imagine that person who is basing their game on 2-shoting would start the attack, fire those 2 bullets and run.. to return with another attack. Ofc, unless he is sure he won't be interrupted by other enemy players, but then -cloak doesn't matter, since you do replenish it after kill.

edit: one extra thing - 2-shoting is important thing, since with basic acttion time of 0.58 sec you can fire twice before enemy fires his second round of shotgun. Yet, in point-blank range, after he fires his second salvo, whole discussion ends, since you are dead (2x 90 allows him for not-complete accuracy with big resever). So, yes, two first shots are those most important ones, not the other 4.


3) Upside negated by the next unlock? - LOL! If Valve somehow ♥♥♥♥s up and introduces a weapon that includes +15 cloak on Revolver shot (which is very highly unlikely in comparison to including other instant-cloaking watches) then, even then, the Enforcer will have a downside, which will be whatever the downside of the new unlock would be. But you're honestly going to poke at this ridiculously small hole on the off-chance of a weapon existing that negates the downside of the Enforcer?


Seriously? These are the best counter arguments you could come up with? :rolleyes:

I had in mind rather item like "+50% cloak regen speed", or "refills your cloak upon ..." which would make whole concept laughable. Also, keep in mind that it was an extra argument - basic one is that -cloak is just not fixing anything except the most brute force usage of DR (DR+Enforcer battlespy).

KajiVena
04-25-2012, 08:00 AM
First - if you miss then we aren't talking about 2-shotting.Stop assuming 100% accuracy vacuum.

The only time the ability to two-shot light classes would be so useful is when it comes to dealing with turtling Engineers or incompetent Snipers.

Second - it doesn't punish other watches than DR, because - let's face it - you can run helluva distance with 70% cloak. Sure, you cannot DR just after kill, but there is NOTHING that stops you from going invis with CnD or IW. Dunno how about you, but I would like to have Enforcer being balanced and good with all watches, not just with DR ;DYou say 70% like the Spy will only fire two shots before cloaking :rolleyes:

Let's try 55%. 40%. 25%. 10%. When it comes to Revolver play (Revolver, not Enforcer) no Spy usually fires two shots and cloaks. :rolleyes:

Why would the Enforcer be any different? 20% extra damage? That isn't enough to kill enemies.

Third - you assume that Spy would stand there and pump damage till he runs out of cloak? I'd rather imagine that person who is basing their game on 2-shoting would start the attack, fire those 2 bullets and run.. to return with another attack. Ofc, unless he is sure he won't be interrupted by other enemy players, but then -cloak doesn't matter, since you do replenish it after kill.He would start the attack, in some situations, but that does not mean he will be fully capable of two-shotting anything other than a stationary Engineer or Sniper in the first place, in which case, he could have stabbed him to the same effect.

edit: one extra thing - 2-shoting is important thing, since with basic acttion time of 0.58 sec you can fire twice before enemy fires his second round of shotgun. Yet, in point-blank range, after he fires his second salvo, whole discussion ends, since you are dead (2x 90 allows him for not-complete accuracy with big resever). So, yes, two first shots are those most important ones, not the other 4.Oh, boy!
Theory crafting!
♥♥♥♥ing perfect situations that assume 100% accuracy, always in close range, and 1v1 scenarios!

Stop using regular theory crafting.

Regular theory crafting will get these highly unlikely, utterly stupid crafted situations which will likely never happen in an actual game. :rolleyes:

Hey, I have a suggestion for you. Go on the TF2 Tightrope servers and test their modified Enforcer which drains 10 cloak a shot.

r_a_k
04-25-2012, 08:21 AM
Stop assuming 100% accuracy vacuum.

The only time the ability to two-shot light classes would be so useful is when it comes to dealing with turtling Engineers or incompetent Snipers.


If you are in 2-shoting range you are, in case you didn't notice, so close that it is friggin' hard not to hit. Hitscan weapon and enemy hitbox about 20% of your screen, right?
And, before you start again about whole non-existing-100%-accuracy, tell me - if 2-shoting wasn't the case, then why all the fuss about CURRENT and BETA Enforcer variants? huh? No reason? So why touch it?


You say 70% like the Spy will only fire two shots before cloaking :rolleyes:

Let's try 55%. 40%. 25%. 10%. When it comes to Revolver play (Revolver, not Enforcer) no Spy usually fires two shots and cloaks. :rolleyes:

Why would the Enforcer be any different? 20% extra damage? That isn't enough to kill enemies.

He would start the attack, in some situations, but that does not mean he will be fully capable of two-shotting anything other than a stationary Engineer or Sniper in the first place, in which case, he could have stabbed him to the same effect.

Duuh? That is, again I see you've missed a point, whole thing. Yes, you can 2-shot people with Enforcer, and you cannot do it with Revolver. Because, hard math is hard, revolver max ramp-up if 60, but Enforcer is 72 (20% more, you know?). Which means that you can kill 125hp enemy with 2 shots fired from about 7-8 (ingame) steps distance. Distance which makes it hard to miss.

Getting so close is another thing, but since Enforcer problem exists - then you have to consider it, instead of closing your eyes and pretending it doesn't happen.


Oh, boy!
Theory crafting!
♥♥♥♥ing perfect situations that assume 100% accuracy, always in close range, and 1v1 scenarios!

Stop using regular theory crafting.

Regular theory crafting will get these highly unlikely, utterly stupid crafted situations which will likely never happen in an actual game. :rolleyes:

Hey, I have a suggestion for you. Go on the TF2 Tightrope servers and test their modified Enforcer which drains 10 cloak a shot.

1. Bigger text doesn't give you any bonus to reasoning

2. Theory crafting is talking about situations that" might happen if..". I am talking about stuff that people do rage against since Enforcer was introduced. Not some fantasy, but facts. It is you who pretend it doesn't exist - just to defends your beloved idea. Sry about bringing some reality to it :)

3. What such test should prove? That I can kill enemy with Enforcer? (I could now if I would be still using it). That I can escape with 80% of cloak? (I can, really.. know what? I can escape even with 40% so with your tightrope I could have fired 6 bullets). So?

KajiVena
04-25-2012, 08:41 AM
If you are in 2-shoting range you are, in case you didn't notice, so close that it is friggin' hard not to hit. Hitscan weapon and enemy hitbox about 20% of your screen, right?And the enemy is standing perfectly still, is in close range, and you have one hundred percent accuracy in a 1v1 scenario.

People over exaggerate the power of two-shotting light classes. They never admit that the only time that it would really matter is when you're shooting a class that isn't moving in the first place.

And, before you start again about whole non-existing-100%-accuracy, tell me - if 2-shoting wasn't the case, then why all the fuss about CURRENT and BETA Enforcer variants? huh? No reason? So why touch it?Why? Because the Beta changes or the game version do not address the issues of being an upgrade to the Revolver.

Duuh? That is, again I see you've missed a point, whole thing. Yes, you can 2-shot people with Enforcer, and you cannot do it with Revolver. Because, hard math is hard, revolver max ramp-up if 60, but Enforcer is 72 (20% more, you know?). Which means that you can kill 125hp enemy with 2 shots fired from about 7-8 (ingame) steps distance. Distance which makes it hard to miss. Math-only arguments are complete, incompetent theory crafting.

I refuse to debate with someone who only puts forward completely made up scenarions.

Getting so close is another thing, but since Enforcer problem exists - then you have to consider it, instead of closing your eyes and pretending it doesn't happen.Considered it. Two-shotting light classes is powerful, but not the earth-shattering upside people like you theory crafters make it out to be.

1. Bigger text doesn't give you any bonus to reasoningFine.

Stop using regular theory crafting.

I moved onto realistic theory crafting a long time ago because regular theory crafting is pointless and proves nothing.

2. Theory crafting is talking about situations that" might happen if..". I am talking about stuff that people do rage against since Enforcer was introduced. Not some fantasy, but facts. It is you who pretend it doesn't exist - just to defends your beloved idea. Sry about bringing some reality to it :)Have two-shots occured? Yes, they have.

Are they common? ♥♥♥♥ no.

Anyone who assumes a Spy will always be able to get a two-shot is a theory crafting moron.

And let's face reality: there are so many theory crafters on these forums, that it's hard to tell just how many times Spies have actually two-shotted anything.

3. What such test should prove? That I can kill enemy with Enforcer? (I could now if I would be still using it). That I can escape with 80% of cloak? (I can, really.. know what? I can escape even with 40% so with your tightrope I could have fired 6 bullets). So?That it is a significant downside?

You're actually trying to make it out to be a useless downside, yet the testing I've done, that plenty of other people have done, has proven it to be significantly more balanced than the current Enforcer or Beta Enforcers, even if it isn't perfect.

Selbi
04-25-2012, 09:05 AM
I personally dislike the concept "More firepower for reduced cloak". Once your cloak ran out you can still shoot, which is even a problem with suggestion 7. So I suggest this:

If you really want to stay at the 15-20% increased firepower, disallow shooting altogether when you don't have enough cloak. Make it like the Widowmaker, basically, having no real ammo resource.

The Enforcer
Level 5 Revolver
+20% increased damage
Per shot: -15% cloak
Uses cloak for ammo

However, since that'd be a completely new weapon, something many people would dislike (me as well, to be honest), why not simply keeping the concept of the beta with some tweaks? You know, this:

The Enforcer
Level 5 Revolver
+20% increased damage
20% slower firing speed
Unable to see enemy health altogether
No random crits

Trotim
04-25-2012, 09:41 AM
However, since that'd be a completely new weapon, something many people would dislike (me as well, to be honest), why not simply keeping the concept of the beta with some tweaks?

Because it doesn't fix anything. If -cloak on shot makes it "a new weapon" then "unable to see enemy health" does as well.

Right now it's pointless anyway, and boring. A unique attribute is actually exactly what it needs. Only making it arguably balanced doesn't make the weapon fun or interesting one bit.

r_a_k
04-25-2012, 01:56 PM
And the enemy is standing perfectly still, is in close range, and you have one hundred percent accuracy in a 1v1 scenario.

People over exaggerate the power of two-shotting light classes. They never admit that the only time that it would really matter is when you're shooting a class that isn't moving in the first place.

2-shoting happens, you like it or not. One doesn't have to stand still, at this distance hitting with scan-weapon is really simple. You keep saying it won't happen - but at the same time most competitive leagues ban Enfrocer because it is too easy to hit with it at meaningful damage range.


Why? Because the Beta changes or the game version do not address the issues of being an upgrade to the Revolver.

Problem is, that -cloak solutions do not address it any better. Not only you have MORE firepower with it (as you can pull out ton of dmg in 0.58 sec intervals, while Beta version makes you shoot 0.7 sec - which is SLOWER than shotgun), but also you do nothing to ensure internal Enforcer-Stock Revolver balance (in those rare cases when 2 Gentlemen fight against each other).

So, you got it totally backwards - guy with Beta Enforcer is _weaker_ than guy with your -cloak variant. Weaker as - less likely to win a fight.


Math-only arguments are complete, incompetent theory crafting.

Yeah, because basing one opinion on how much damage can be done, in what distance, on what conditions.. you know, basing opinion on facts is theory crafting. While your argumentation by big font - is solid. Please.


I refuse to debate with someone who only puts forward completely made up scenarions.

Considered it. Two-shotting light classes is powerful, but not the earth-shattering upside people like you theory crafters make it out to be.

Know what? I am getting tired of this way of having conversation. I mean - I do bring facts, numbers and real-game experience examples, you chose to deny them and call them theorycrafting. Somehow, on competitive level, Enforcer is banned. Because it is a problem. And hardly competitive players are terrible or newbies. So, try to rethink your attitude.

Also, one more thing. Say I need to utilize 3 bullets. With that I can put down a medic, and not even being extremely close. Esp if he is already hurt a bit - does your "-cloak" variants do ANYTHING to address it? Nope. Even Beta Enforcer does it better (giving medic, and his team, extra time to react). And I can go on and on with those examples - problem is, you neglect the lack of connection between firepower and your proposed downside. I just can hope other people can see it.


That it is a significant downside?

You're actually trying to make it out to be a useless downside, yet the testing I've done, that plenty of other people have done, has proven it to be significantly more balanced than the current Enforcer or Beta Enforcers, even if it isn't perfect.
And again. I have no idea, what was skill level or testing conditions of people you have done it with, but you clearly did it wrong. Because:

1. Spy can kill enemy with greater ease using "-cloak" version than he can with Enforcer variant

2. Spy can still escape after killing enemy, because even after using 4 (not 2, but 4) bullets he still has 60 cloak left. That is, my friend 5 seconds of movement for IW watch even after activation fade. If you cannot escape from assassination site in 5 secs, you are doing something wrong. As for CnD, having 3 secs to get to good stopping spot, and then wait/crouchmove is again - totally doable.

3. Sure, you do prevent DREnforcer Spy style with this solution. But that is just fixing it for one watch and making it have less downside for other two.

Selbi
04-25-2012, 02:28 PM
Because it doesn't fix anything. If -cloak on shot makes it "a new weapon" then "unable to see enemy health" does as well.

Right now it's pointless anyway, and boring. A unique attribute is actually exactly what it needs. Only making it arguably balanced doesn't make the weapon fun or interesting one bit.

I'd rather have a fairly balanced weapon that is boring, than a weapon with a highly negligible downside compared to the upside. This is also why I consider the Overdose as a straight upgrade (though that doesn't make it OP).

The problem is that upsides shouldn't be balanced with something completely unrelated, because only in certain scenarios this actually matters.

Also, the Enforcer as it is right now in the Beta is actually pretty unique. For example, at close range you can still kill any class in two hits before he notices you, even with the reduced firing rate. You simply need to remember the health of the class before dropping your disguise and aim your shots carefully.

It's sort of a higher risk, higher reward weapon, since spamming is not really an option anymore.

TurtleKing
04-25-2012, 04:28 PM
Why not just test every suggestion in TF2 Tightrope? Make the stats last 1 week, and have folks vote on which one they prefer after all are tested. Finally, send an email to Valve with the gathered votes (1st choice, 2nd choice, 3rd choice).

I love what you are doing Magnamancy, but some folks feel strongly that their suggestion is better (including myself (15. -25 max health on wearer)).

cheeseboy
04-25-2012, 05:11 PM
For the ideas in discussion:
I don't want that 20% damage bonus, it's way too high. I really like #7, but I think that it should be a 15% damage bonus, and it be based on around whether you have more or less than 20% cloak.

KajiVena
04-25-2012, 06:24 PM
2-shoting happens, you like it or not. One doesn't have to stand still, at this distance hitting with scan-weapon is really simple. You keep saying it won't happen - but at the same time most competitive leagues ban Enfrocer because it is too easy to hit with it at meaningful damage range.I keep saying that it won't happen all the time which you seem to want to keep saying it will.

And most leagues ban Enforcer because it's a ♥♥♥♥ing straight upgrade to the Revolver that also encourages Dead Ringer use over the other watches.

Problem is, that -cloak solutions do not address it any better. Not only you have MORE firepower with it (as you can pull out ton of dmg in 0.58 sec intervals, while Beta version makes you shoot 0.7 sec - which is SLOWER than shotgun), but also you do nothing to ensure internal Enforcer-Stock Revolver balance (in those rare cases when 2 Gentlemen fight against each other).-Cloak solutions address it far better than not solving the issue in the first place.

Second, who gives a ♥♥♥♥ if the Revolver Spy is at a disadvantage in a direct fight with the Enforcer? (My) Enforcer Spy is more screwed than a Revolver Spy when it comes to flight or fight. :rolleyes:

Yeah, because basing one opinion on how much damage can be done, in what distance, on what conditions.. you know, basing opinion on facts is theory crafting. While your argumentation by big font - is solid. Please.Facts?

Spies reliably getting into close range, and reliably two-shotting light classes is fact?

I never said it wasn't possible. I said:

"Have two-shots occurred? Yes, they have.

Are they common? ♥♥♥♥ no.

Anyone who assumes a Spy will always be able to get a two-shot is a theory crafting moron."

And that is a fact because, unlike you, I don't assume perfect accuracy nor completely ideal situations to make my argument sound better. I understand that there exists such a thing as unpredictability, as well as understanding that even the best players of the game clock in at around 70% accuracy overall.

Know what? I am getting tired of this way of having conversation. I mean - I do bring facts, numbers and real-game experience examples, you chose to deny them and call them theorycrafting. Somehow, on competitive level, Enforcer is banned. Because it is a problem. And hardly competitive players are terrible or newbies. So, try to rethink your attitude.Unnecessary straight upgrade to Revolver that encourages Dead Ringer use over all other watches and has the capability of two-shotting light classes.

That is the reason why the Enforcer is banned. It's an unnecessary straight upgrade to the Revolver in almost every sense of the term, and it gives free extra damage at no cost to the Spy whatsoever.

Also, one more thing. Say I need to utilize 3 bullets. With that I can put down a medic, and not even being extremely close. Esp if he is already hurt a bit - does your "-cloak" variants do ANYTHING to address it? Nope.Even Beta Enforcer does it better (giving medic, and his team, extra time to react). And I can go on and on with those examples - problem is, you neglect the lack of connection between firepower and your proposed downside. I just can hope other people can see it.The same could be done with the REVOLVER.

Why should anything be done about this when the Revolver basically the same ♥♥♥♥ing thing? :rolleyes:

And again. I have no idea, what was skill level or testing conditions of people you have done it with, but you clearly did it wrong. Because:

1. Spy can kill enemy with greater ease using "-cloak" version than he can with Enforcer variant

2. Spy can still escape after killing enemy, because even after using 4 (not 2, but 4) bullets he still has 60 cloak left. That is, my friend 5 seconds of movement for IW watch even after activation fade. If you cannot escape from assassination site in 5 secs, you are doing something wrong. As for CnD, having 3 secs to get to good stopping spot, and then wait/crouchmove is again - totally doable.

3. Sure, you do prevent DREnforcer Spy style with this solution. But that is just fixing it for one watch and making it have less downside for other two.1. Big whoop. It's 20 ♥♥♥♥ing percent, a difference of 8 damage at base, 4 at long and 12 at close. That isn't a significant gain in firepower in the first place and the only things really changed is the power of a Kritz Spy or the ability to two-shot light classes which would happen with even +5% damage.

2. I never said it was perfect. I said that it has been tested to positive reviews and it was far more balanced than the in-game Enforcer (by a wide margin) and had an actual significant downside unlike the Beta Enforcer. We'll be testing -15 coming soon.

3. Less of a downside? Maybe less significant than the effect it has the Dead Ringer, but it's still a significant loss if you actually use your gun in the first place.


I'm done with talking to r_a_k the theory crafter.

r_a_k
04-25-2012, 10:33 PM
Not going to quote all that again, since it IS the same nonsense over and over.

From one side you do acknowledge that Enforcer is straight upgrade. From other side you do say that it isn't big deal, since it is "just 12 dmg at close range". You do contradict yourself here.

That "just 12 dmg at close range" IS the problem, because there is nothing (in normal game, current version) that makes you pay for it in direct combat. Doesn't matter if with DR or not - you gain ton of extra dmg (yes, it is a ton, since strock revolver is strong weapon by itself!) and non-important, not working downside that affects.. cloak.

Valve does something about it. They made their (beta) weapon firing slower, thus both lowering dps (making it more fair against stock revolver) and allowing enemy to respond better (to the point where they can fire 2 salvos before you release 2nd bullet). At the same time you do try to nerf cloak - which does nothing (exactly as current, original, blink time downside) to combat itself - you try to affect escaping after combat. Which, btw. you do in such way that it screws one watch (DR) and doesn't really hurt IW or CnD much.

So no, it isn't theorycrafting it is pointing weak sides of your idea. And I am happy that you are done with me, since I guess it means you also give up talking rubish.

Aznbkd19
04-25-2012, 10:43 PM
Lots of theorycrafting errywhere.

Just take it for what it is. A stronger revolver that is stronger than the original which was supposed to be the balancing weapon to the Amby. It doesn't have downsides to the DR, so that's why it is placed as stronger than the revolver practically. Even the downside for the other watches is barely noticeable for what is a stronger revolver.

Point is... its a stronger revolver for a downside that can be negated and is overall built with not very much downside. Plus it crits hard :D! YAY!

Trotim
04-26-2012, 06:11 AM
But the Enforcer giving you more combat power is the point. The Enforcer Spy should have an advantage over the Revolver Spy. That's the entire point of the +20% damage and you need to embrace it. Yes it'll allow you to kill light enemies faster, that's why you equip it. That's its role.

Giving a weapon +20% damage, then chickening out and nerfing it with -20% fire rate is just schizophrenic (and doesn't fix the perceived 2-shotting problem either). With -cloak you give up cloak for extra fire power. With -rate you give up fire power for extra fire power... ?_? Then you may as well not have the weapon at all.

Screwing synergy with the DR is also very much intended. That's half the problem of the current Enforcer after all.

And making you unable to see enemy health just means you're encouraged to shoot everyone instead of only trying to finish enemies off. -cloak can be circumvented if you're good, not seeing enemy health on the other hand defeats half the point of being Spy.

-cloak on shot also promotes Big Earner usage, gives it a reason to exist.

But sure, the two/three most popular variants, once we know which those are, can be tested in Tightrope. Only that will really tell what works best.

Nadrac
04-26-2012, 09:13 AM
Well i took a break from tf2 for a while and sad to see this subject still going on, almost a year now. Dr,Enforcer designed for easy mode and it looks like they like keeping it that way. If you use an item most of the time over stock it's OP face it ( assuming you use the best item available and can tell which is the best one ) . Can't really blame them all those weapon releases they really shoot themselves in the foot and major game changing could result in player loss.

This is of course by the logic nothing should be more powerful than stock everything else should be and alternative for special circumstances. If we are talking about upgrades there are plenty of games like that least f2p-s can get everything here even if it takes them months ( in which time they will pose less challenge, not due to their own lack of skill )

In my eyes only demoman and sniper stayed true over the years while pyro is the worst instead of buffing him he got upgrade unlocks.

Just use whats fun :D

Magnamancy
04-28-2012, 12:14 AM
Okay, Trotim, +20% Damage does not mean that a better DPS is
the point of the unlock, the only thing it means is each shot
does 20% extra damage, in this case enough to 2 shot intead of
3 shot light classes.

Tagging a rate of fire penalty drops the DPS but doesn't touch
the fact that your bullets do 20% extra damage. That's all it
does.

To equal the time it takes to 3 shot light classes, the Enforcer
would need 100% slower firing speed iirc, so it's still that
much faster anyway.


I'm unsure of what the point of your post was Nadrac.


Everyone has a set in stone idea in their head and are absolutely
unwilling to try to come to some sort of comprimise. This clearly
hasn't worked yet and it never will work short of hell's freezing.

You need to be open to other ways of looking at things and be
willing to come to some form of accord over the best ways to
handle the problems presented.

Or you could all argue fruitlessly for another few pages instead.


To backtrack to step one, the problems the Enforcer had:
1. Previous downsides weren't good enough.
2. Previous downsides supersynergized with the Dead Ringer.
3. Extra firepower turned the Spy into a capable combat class.

Is this not the amalgamation of everyone's views on it?
Everyone should atleast agree on 1, while Kaji's side firmly
believes 2, and R_A_K's side firmly believes 3, yes?

r_a_k
04-28-2012, 01:06 AM
Magna, why neither me nor Kaji disagree with 1. and 3., the difference lies in view on what _proper_ downside should be.

Kaji's argument is, that you can chose downside that isn't self-balancing and is indirect to combat itself (in this case -cloak per bullet). I simply state, that such downside is mute, and that choosing such solution won't change anything about current problem (read: you can quite easily kill class that would be out of your reach with revolver).

In addition, I think that good downside should work with equal strength with all watches. Sure, we do hate now DR+Enforcer and many people blindly seek downside that would punish such synergy - yet, would such solution be picked, in 2-3 weeks cry about IW/CnD Spy abusing Enforcer would be inevitable. So, let me repeat, we have to pick downside that works with all watches. Not just with one (DR).

KajiVena
04-28-2012, 01:44 AM
I believe that the lack of a discouraging downside with the Dead Ringer, and overall really, is what has made the Enforcer out to be as bad as it has become known to be.

Extra combat firepower be damned, if the thing had significant downsides that restricted the Spy's options (ex. -cloak on shot) for the damage boost, then there wouldn't be nearly as many complaints about the thing.

r_a_k is a perfectionist, on the other hand, and wants to satisfy the lesser issue with the gun (two-shots light classes) as well as the major issue (no significant downside at all).

Magnamancy
04-28-2012, 04:11 AM
... Okay, thank you both for the respective clarifications.


Kaji, you're admitting that what you're trying to get done won't
solve all the problems with the Enforcer, while R_a_k is trying
to provide an answer to them.


If given the option between a solution that solves half of a
problem you're having, and a solution that solves the entirety
of the problem, which would you naturally want?

Both options help fix your problem, so neither answer is wrong.

One option is decidedly preferable though, as you will still
experience issues if half of the problem remains standing.

KajiVena
04-28-2012, 08:02 AM
Except, is two-shotting nearly as much of a problem (really, it's the only real feature of the Enforcer with a serious downside) as the lack of a downside with Dead Ringer and every other watch?

No.
No, it's not.

Trotim
04-28-2012, 02:56 PM
Sorry, I never meant to say "more DPS" is the point. I mean combat power, or fire power, in general.

Removing the strength of a weapon is not fixing a problem. Giving you more power in one aspect while making you worse in another is actually the thing unlocks should do. I feel that if the Frontier Justice came up in a discussion like this, its crits would never be accepted. The Flare Gun probably not either (can already imagine the inevitable "but Pyro already is the short range class and super strong there, giving him a long-range weapon is op!" posts)...

If you get better at one thing but also get worse at the same thing, what's the point of the item? Yes -20% fire rate, +...15% damage (why the minor tweak? changes nothing afaik) as has been pointed out is still an increase in combat power, doesn't fix that it makes Spy more of a capable combat class. And didn't we establish lower fire rate hardly ever applies when you aim/only gives you more time to aim? The inability to see enemy health doesn't fix that it's too good with the DR, and makes you less of a Spy. (I don't mind that downside as much, it just doesn't seem to alleviate any of the aforementioned issues)

-x% cloak on shot hurts DR the most but still definitely applies to CnD and IW too. It working less good with the DR again is part of making Enforcer Spy less of a viable combat class and intended - anything boosting Spy's straight-up combat power should not also synergize with his ideal tanking & escaping tool.

(As an aside, flat numerical changes like +x% damage, -x% fire rate, -x% clip etc. all have a definite answer. These "calculation decisions" will always lead to players eventually figuring out which weapon is preferable, are not a true choice. Incomparability/uniqueness is one key feature of a good item. I feel it could be useful as this discussion has been surprisingly productive so I'll link to two old posts of mine:
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22609121&postcount=28
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22624691&postcount=60)

So I'll repeat, reducing the amount of shots taken to kill enemies is the point of the Enforcer's damage bonus. It can't be fixed because it's not an issue. Likewise, reducing synergy with the DR and decreasing your stealth potential is intentional.

By the way theorycrafting can only get us so much. I feel that if the Frontier Justice came up in a discussion like this, its crits would never be accepted. Turns out it's fine in gameplay. I wouldn't have anything against testing both (or three, four...) suggestions and highly recommend it.

Markisthetitan
04-28-2012, 03:53 PM
Cloak per shot is actually making me think twice about the damage bonus, it seems to balance it well...you actually have to think about your shots again and you can't just gun down an entire enemy force.

Trotim
04-28-2012, 03:56 PM
Cloak per shot is actually making me think twice about the damage bonus, it seems to balance it well...you actually have to think about your shots again and you can't just gun down an entire enemy force.

Well, you could. Without another condition there's no more downside once you're out of cloak, but one could argue having no cloak is downside enough.

Markisthetitan
04-28-2012, 04:33 PM
Well, you could. Without another condition there's no more downside once you're out of cloak, but one could argue having no cloak is downside enough.


I'm assuming you can't fire once cloak is depleted

Makarni
04-28-2012, 04:51 PM
This enforcer is what?... scout?. Play scout.

I use this gun becuase i feel enFORCED too (:cool:).. against the good players. If i can back stabs i do backstabs, this is why i play spy. But mostly on the good players i forced into more of a ''scout'' style.

This gun can be removed for all i care, if they can boost the stealth game and make it more combat viable.

This is problem to me, many times i de-cloak so far away so they not hear the noise i think ''why bother back stabbing?''.. when i can just take them out with a few colt hits. This is a forced way on sniper for example. But.. at end of the day, i take the time to snea all way to their base, and to their snipers... don't i deserve 1 kill?. Especialy when some solider can just rocket up to that same spot and take out 4 players before he dies.. then be back on his way from respawn just as i get their for the first time.

r_a_k
04-28-2012, 05:06 PM
(...)
And didn't we establish lower fire rate hardly ever applies when you aim/only gives you more time to aim?

Would like to stop you here for a sec. Why do you perceive slower firing rate from Spy perspective _only_? Think, for a second, about what was repeated few times already - with normal fire rate, you do fire a bullet, enemy fires their shotty (or whatever), you fire your 2nd bullet -> enemy is dead. (Yes, I am talking about close range situation, where dmg is critical).
With slower firing rate, it goes another way: you fire your bullet, enemy fires his shotty, fires his shotty 2nd time. There is a big change (on that range we are talking about 80-90dmg / salvo with full accuracy) that you are dead before you fire 2nd bullet.
How isn't it a big and meaningfull factor? Hmm?

Your slower firing rate can be understood as more time for enemy. That has its weight. Esp, if enemy is good.


(..)
-x% cloak on shot hurts DR the most but still definitely applies to CnD and IW too. It working less good with the DR again is part of making Enforcer Spy less of a viable combat class and intended - anything boosting Spy's straight-up combat power should not also synergize with his ideal tanking & escaping tool.

Problem is, it does nothing to fight itself. Yes, you do affect aftermatch, when enemy is taken down and Spy has to retreat. Sure as sure. But on the fight itself - it affects exactly nothing. Keep in mind, that taking down top priority target is in many cases more important than Spy escaping safely.

Another thing is way you want to affect that escaping chance. For IW/CnD it doesn't change that much. With -10 cloak/bullet you can fire 4 shots and still have 60% cloak. It is really much and allows for quite safe escape. So, like I've said earlier, you do affect practically ONLY loadout with DR. I do seriously doubt that such change would make competitive leagues even think about re-allowing Enforcer into gameplay.


(...)
By the way theorycrafting can only get us so much. I feel that if the Frontier Justice came up in a discussion like this, its crits would never be accepted. Turns out it's fine in gameplay. I wouldn't have anything against testing both (or three, four...) suggestions and highly recommend it.
Please keep in mind, that Frontier Justice is heavily modified version - you have half of clip capacity and until you earn crit you are in weaker position. The same goes for special soldier launchers (you have one rocket less, or reduced splash, or..), the same goes for kunai (you start with less health, and have chance to get more than standrd) etc etc.
With -cloak/bullet variants you guys propose you aren't gimped at start at all. Quite contrary, you are going to get weaker, but after job (fight) is done. That is a serious difference, at least in my book.

Strings
04-28-2012, 08:00 PM
uses cloak as ammo vs -x cloak on shot?

Magnamancy
04-29-2012, 02:44 AM
Except, is two-shotting nearly as much of a problem (really, it's the only real feature of the Enforcer with a serious downside) as the lack of a downside with Dead Ringer and every other watch?

No.
No, it's not.

That's not the point though. No matter what you think of it,
it's still identified as part of the problem Kaji, a part that
your solution doesn't address.



Trotim, I understand your perspective and where you're coming
from, but you made a jump in reasoning.

The Enforcer, assuming a fire rate penalty that's not 100% extra
time, will still kill light classes much quicker than the Revolver
and heavy classes slower.

This does not offer itself by math as being better in all situations
and mean there are no options, it means that you have an unlock
tailored to killing enemies with few hitpoints.



I'm afraid I'm tired and my brains fuzzy and I don't understand
what you're talking about, sorry Strings. :<

Trotim
04-29-2012, 08:06 AM
[...]How isn't it a big and meaningfull factor? Hmm?

Your slower firing rate can be understood as more time for enemy. That has its weight. Esp, if enemy is good.

Right. I just don't think 0.1s longer will help an enemy you almost always (should) surprise. And needing one fewer bullet means you save 0.6s already so I'm not sure how what you say applies. You still kill enemies faster, they don't have more time to react as with another revolver you'd need three shots.

They have more time to react to nerfed Enforcer than to current Enforcer. That's not the point though and insufficient a change as nerfed Enforcer would still be far better than Revolver.

The Enforcer, assuming a fire rate penalty that's not 100% extra
time, will still kill light classes much quicker than the Revolver
and heavy classes slower.

This does not offer itself by math as being better in all situations
and mean there are no options, it means that you have an unlock
tailored to killing enemies with few hitpoints.

But it's better at picking off injured enemies, better at killing light classes, and better at killing heavy classes. I don't understand. Of course it offers itself by math because there is one definite answer to which weapon you should use for combat.

With a low fire rate penalty like this, it's better. If the fire rate penalty nullifies the damage bonus, it's still slightly better. If the fire rate penalty is too high, it's worse and won't be used. There's no other room for choice here. There never is with flat numerical tweaks like this.

You could literally play around with -fire rate forever and it will never lead to a good solution. Auxiliary downside to help some other attribute, maybe, but inability to see enemy health is not major enough to make it balanced and has nothing to do with fire rate.

Problem is, it does nothing to fight itself. Yes, you do affect aftermatch, when enemy is taken down and Spy has to retreat. Sure as sure. But on the fight itself - it affects exactly nothing. Keep in mind, that taking down top priority target is in many cases more important than Spy escaping safely.

Another thing is way you want to affect that escaping chance. For IW/CnD it doesn't change that much. With -10 cloak/bullet you can fire 4 shots and still have 60% cloak. It is really much and allows for quite safe escape. So, like I've said earlier, you do affect practically ONLY loadout with DR. I do seriously doubt that such change would make competitive leagues even think about re-allowing Enforcer into gameplay.

[...]

With -cloak/bullet variants you guys propose you aren't gimped at start at all. Quite contrary, you are going to get weaker, but after job (fight) is done. That is a serious difference, at least in my book.

Alright, now these points I get. That the downside doesn't fight the bonus is intended and wanted, still, but that the downside isn't enough looks more and more true to me as well.

I do agree -10 cloak on shot is definitely too little. I already pushed for -20 a while ago, Kaji objected so we settled on -15 for the time being.

It's true that only escaping after combat is affected, or at least when you stop shooting and want to run away. And I can see how that could not matter enough to make a difference. On the other hand... I still think it makes much more of a difference than the other suggestion.

What I have also constantly been saying is that a condition that stops you from shooting when cloak is empty is probably needed. But I'm not that much of a fan of it anymore, and again it's true what you pointed out applies - only matters after combat, when it might not matter at all. At least it limits your ability to kill multiple enemies, I suppose?

I wouldn't mind seeing the Enforcer as more a suicidal surgical strike tool, all things considered. Get in, kill a priority low health target in a bit more reliable a way, but far lower chance to escape. Making Spy more reliable in 6v6 doesn't sound like that bad a thing to me and in Highlander you very much do not want to die after every kill.

So what should happen is Spies use it for more reliability, but understand that shooting more than 2-3 times is suicide and escape in time instead. Or they commit to it and won't be able to escape. I think those are pretty fair... always keeping in mind that none of us would ever have put a flat damage bonus on a revolver in the first place but we can't change that.

You trade safe escapes for more reliability and some more fire power with your Primary. Don't forget it can just be blacklisted in 6v6 if it turns out to be too good there (though I highly doubt that), but I can't see it being overpowered anymore in Highlander and pubs at least.

Still it's just very hard to tell how these play without seeing them ingame.

Magnamancy
04-29-2012, 11:20 AM
But it's better at picking off injured enemies, better at killing light classes, and better at killing heavy classes. I don't understand. Of course it offers itself by math because there is one definite answer to which weapon you should use for combat.

With a low fire rate penalty like this, it's better. If the fire rate penalty nullifies the damage bonus, it's still slightly better. If the fire rate penalty is too high, it's worse and won't be used. There's no other room for choice here. There never is with flat numerical tweaks like this.

You could literally play around with -fire rate forever and it will never lead to a good solution. Auxiliary downside to help some other attribute, maybe, but inability to see enemy health is not major enough to make it balanced and has nothing to do with fire rate.

... I'm afraid there's a failure to communicate here, let me run
some numbers and see if I can clear it up...


Revolver
Fire rate - 0.58 seconds
Spread recovery - 1.25 seconds
Close range - 60 dmg shot
Mid range - 40 dmg shot
Far range - 20 dmg shot

Enforcer
Fire rate (Hypothetical 50% nerf) - 0.87 seconds
Spread recovery - 1.25 seconds
Close range - 72 dmg shot
Mid range - 48 dmg shot
Far range - 24 dmg shot

Vs 125 hitpoints at close range, fired as fast as possible.
Revolver - 1.16 seconds to kill.
Enforcer - 0.87 seconds to kill.

Vs 300 hitpoints at close range, fired as fast as possible.
Revolver - 3.48 seconds to kill.
Enforcer - 4.35 seconds to kill.


I realize it's a ridiculous situation and 50% may be drastic,
but they're cold numbers: It can be shown to kill a bit faster
on lighter classes and a bit slower on heavier classes at top
output.


I agree that it probably needs a little bit extra as a concept
to reduce the drasticness needed, and I sorely wanted to
somehow implement the -cloak on hit into it as such so
everyone could be happy, but idk. That what this thread is
for. Finding out or making the best ideas we can.

KajiVena
04-29-2012, 11:26 AM
That's not the point though. No matter what you think of it,
it's still identified as part of the problem Kaji, a part that
your solution doesn't address.It's an issue people keep trying to bring up to exaggerate just how broken the Enforcer is, when in reality, the second it stops being a direct upgrade to the Revolver that encourages Dead Ringer use, 80~90% or so of the complaints would fall to the wayside.

Strings
04-29-2012, 12:27 PM
uses cloak as ammo vs -x cloak on shot?

Let me put some context in there.

What do you think about uses cloak as ammo instead of -x cloak on shot. Mechanically it means the spy cannot fire if he does not have at the minimum amount of cloak required to fire. Which means that you are unable to use the enforcer if you botch up and run out of cloak. A very big dent on its easy of use.

SilverAlen
04-29-2012, 09:36 PM
That's not the point though. No matter what you think of it,
it's still identified as part of the problem Kaji, a part that
your solution doesn't address.

Isn't that the only reason to use the weapon? I mean, do we really want to rework the entire weapon, upside and downside?

I still say the upside is fine, with a decent downside. Afterall, the ambassador lets you two shot light classes, with the downside of you have to have good/great aim to use it right. I think making the weapon limit your stealth options via cloak drain is a decent idea.

Magnamancy
04-30-2012, 03:03 AM
When it comes to that, I think the scope of the nerf required
for it Kaji is more than we have or would be reasonable, and I
greatly disagree SilverAlen, but I've said my piece.


The idea's received enough discussion now, it clearly has
support amongst the debating, so of 5 6 and 7 which one should
be passed into the vote options, and are there any tweaks wanted
done in any supporter's opinions?


Of 5 6 and 7, I would prefer 6, largely to hurt the CnD.


Also so it clear, in options 5 and 6, what happens if there's
too little cloak in charge?

KajiVena
04-30-2012, 05:16 AM
Then use 7 or a combination of 5 and 7 like I proposed earlier.

Still, a vast majority of the Enforcer complaints will fall to the wayside once it stops being an all-around upgrade.

Magnamancy
04-30-2012, 06:46 AM
Then given that 7 is closer to 6 than 5 I prefer the default 7.


Of those in support of the idea, is 7 good for you?



Suggestion 7:
If user has at least 15% cloak:
+20% damage
-15 cloak on shot
If user has less than 15% cloak:
-10% damage

Strings
04-30-2012, 07:50 AM
If user has at least 15% cloak:
+20% damage
-15 cloak on shot
If user has less than 15% cloak:
Cannot shoot

one more try

Magnamancy
04-30-2012, 08:46 PM
So, which one do people want?

If user has at least 15% cloak:
+20% damage
-15 cloak on shot
If user has less than 15% cloak:
-10% damage

If user has at least 15% cloak:
+20% damage
-15 cloak on shot
If user has less than 15% cloak:
Cannot shoot

KajiVena
04-30-2012, 09:30 PM
The one that is not Strings.

Spy should always be capable of at least defending himself. He only has 125 HP...

TurtleKing
04-30-2012, 10:30 PM
The one that is not Strings.

Spy should always be capable of at least defending himself. He only has 125 HP...

Yeah first one seems reasonable, although I have peeves about 1vs1 disadvantage.

Can we move on now to 15 and 20 pls? :P

Magnamancy
04-30-2012, 11:37 PM
If user has at least 15% cloak:
+20% damage
-15 cloak on shot
If user has less than 15% cloak:
-10% damage

If there's no more responses to the above by tomorrow we'll move on.
=p

r_a_k
05-01-2012, 02:25 AM
I support moving on.

Also, an idea: how about, this time, after voting we ask Valve specifically to test more than one variant? I mean, let's say we have 2 or 3 different solutions - let's not say "this one is what community thinks", but "please try this and this in Beta, for we aren't sure which would work better".

Strings
05-01-2012, 03:49 AM
Well if you are going to do it like that why not make it weaken after ~3 shots instead ~6.

The one that is not Strings.

Spy should always be capable of at least defending himself. He only has 125 HP...Spy is also a stealth class. Punishment for being caught should be sharp.

Makarni
05-01-2012, 04:45 AM
The one that is not Strings.

Spy should always be capable of at least defending himself. He only has 125 HP...

That is what DR and C&D is ''suppose'' to be for. Problem is good players render the real defence useless. They work yes.... but they have you on the run so much that you are actualy a waste of space to the team. I also feel i must use spy-cicle.. but this in mny times than not is almost as bad as being killed at-least on smaller maps. Nothing worse than when you sneak up on enemy medic.... spy-cicle ready.. just before the killing blow boom... random fire spam. Did i not earn the kill by getting behind enemy line?.. the time it take to sneak in and get right up behind the force???. If a heavy-medic get into enemy base with uber they rip the place up. I am alone behind enemy line.. thats my job, i don't have team to back up. I need to be one man army in this place. As we know this is not the case with spy vs good players.. and thats why spy vs good players is a wasted team spot. Especialy more so when enforcer have nerf.. this was making the dowsides of all the so called stealth stabs worthy.

Yes ofc this just means im a noob right??.

KajiVena
05-01-2012, 06:57 AM
Spy is also a stealth class. Punishment for being caught should be sharp.Being caught often spells death for the 125 HP class, regardless of what revolver he has equipped (unless he's running DR).

Why does Spy need to, at times, not be able to defend himself with a revolver?

Strings
05-01-2012, 07:42 AM
Being caught often spells death for the 125 HP class, regardless of what revolver he has equipped (unless he's running DR).

Why does Spy need to, at times, not be able to defend himself with a revolver?

It is the price you pay for extra power. Stealth classes NEED a very binary feedback thingy or else you muddle the gameplay and lower the motivation to be stealthy.

Trotim
05-01-2012, 08:12 AM
I agree with Strings here but personally prefer the damage penalty on low cloak. Whatever, needs ingame testing.

Next suggestion already please!

Magnamancy
05-01-2012, 05:24 PM
Next up:

(8.)
-0.5 sec cloak time
+0.5 sec decloak time


... Essentially an entirely new unlock.

I don't personally think the Enforcer will get realistically
reworked on this scale, but with it the Enforcer becomes a
Revolver tailored to escaping... Might step on the L'Etranger's
toes.

Makes it a downgrade with the DR though.

CheeseSandvich
05-01-2012, 05:29 PM
Unacceptable for the reason stated directly above. The Enforcer would go from a revolver that has no downsides when used with the Dead Ringer to not having any upsides.

Strings
05-01-2012, 06:56 PM
Unacceptable for the reason stated directly above. The Enforcer would go from a revolver that has no downsides when used with the Dead Ringer to not having any upsides.

I don't know, man. The watches are so mechanically different that requiring each unlock to be equally effective with every watch might be an unrealistic demand.

Magnamancy
05-01-2012, 07:43 PM
I don't know, man. The watches are so mechanically different that requiring each unlock to be equally effective with every watch might be an unrealistic demand.

Aim of the game is to stop the Enforcer being too good to begin
with, and to stop it being even better with the DR. While equal
effectiveness is as you said possibly unreasonable, we can
reasonably expect to sort out extreme cases. =p

KajiVena
05-01-2012, 08:24 PM
Complete rework that results in a minor to non-existent upside with a minor downside.

Turns the Enforcer from an upgrade to the Revolver all around to a pointless weapon.

No.

Magnamancy
05-01-2012, 08:54 PM
Complete rework that results in a minor to non-existent upside with a minor downside.

Turns the Enforcer from an upgrade to the Revolver all around to a pointless weapon.

No.

I'm inclined to agree.



If nobody contests for the suggestion by tomorrow we can move on.

cheeseboy
05-03-2012, 02:34 PM
I don't like the current idea in discussion. It's a completely different weapon, not The Enforcer...It's more like a new invisibility watch, really.

Still waiting to discuss #14 ;-;

Magnamancy
05-03-2012, 05:57 PM
Next idea:

(9.)
+50% max ramp-up
-15% damage penalty
Cannot crit and minicrit under any circumstances


Just to run some numbers:
Base Damage: 34
Max Ramp Up: 68 (Twoshot threshold is 63)

Sooo, still 2 shots but only when right in their face and is less
effective at other ranges.

KajiVena
05-03-2012, 06:14 PM
Why do we need this one, exactly?

I can't really see a reason why we should nerf everything but the close range damage output the Enforcer has.

Magnamancy
05-03-2012, 11:53 PM
Doesn't really seem to address much of anything.

It's still 2shotting at close range, 6 less damage at medium, and
5 less damage at long. I'm not seeing a by any means fair tradeoff
at any rate. :|

r_a_k
05-04-2012, 03:50 AM
Doesn't agree. First of all, you do count only border spots, not thinking about parts of distances. Yet (unless I am wrong with maths) -15%dmg, +50%max ramp up results in:

-> not 2-shoting anymore if not closer than 91% of mid-close distance
-> has lower damage till 42% of mid-close distance (because, even with +50% max ramp-up, you do have to work up against standard one)

non-graphical (I cannot see way to insert pic on those forums) representation
(0 distance) | E e e e r r r r |r r r r r r r r r | (over 1024 units - loooong distance)

r - revolver is better
e - enforcer is better
E - enforcer is capable of dealing > 63 dmg

What does it mean in practice - with this variant revolver is totally better on long, mid and ~0.4 of close distance (roughly 204 game distance units). In exchange, it gets better in remaining ~0.6 of "close" distance (about 302 game distance units), but not being able to 2-shot enemy unless really close (about 46 game distance units).

(to actually read about ramp-up and distances, check here: wiki - ramp up (http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Ramp_up))

So, how is this balanced? Simply, the same way all shotguns are. If you keep your enemy at certain distance, his weapon is weaker than yours. If you allow him to get close, he benefits.

InB4-butSpyCanGetReallyCloseFast-argument: Scout, most mobile class in game, has scattergun as main weapon. It is balanced.

Magnamancy
05-04-2012, 05:53 AM
... Huh. The diagram-thing helps. =p

The current Enforcer's 2shot range is fairly forgiving, which isn't
fantastic, and this'd require really getting in the persons face
to use it at it's best, which is better, and is worse at most
other ranges.

I think it'd be balanced with the watches at any rate, I can't
see why it wouldn't atm.


Does anyone have any balance concerns for this suggestion?


Kaji raised the point that he couldn't see why we'd nerf the
other ranges of the unlock, and I suppose the simplest answer
is hopefully to have a go at balancing it I guess. =d

Magnamancy
05-04-2012, 09:53 PM
... Well let's move on then.



Next up is suggestion:

(10.)
+20% damage
35% slower firing speed
Cannot crit and minicrit under any circumstances




Getting close to halfway through them all too. :)

r_a_k
05-05-2012, 03:07 AM
(...)
Next up is suggestion:

(10.)
+20% damage
35% slower firing speed
Cannot crit and minicrit under any circumstances

(...)

OK, let's go (again) with reasoning behind this. Enforcer is (currently) so good because you can fire
1) with extra dmg
2) as fast as you can do it with stock revolver
This results in several things (2-shoting light classes, being able to get close and spam enforcer to kill medics and alike etc).

Valve was trying to balance greater damage, by giving other classes more time to react (stock revolver can be spammed with each 0.58 sec; 20% slower firing speed means you cannot shoot any faster than 0.696 sec). Yet, even it is enough for absolute minimum - shotgun can be spammed with 0.625 sec - it requires enemy to be extremaly fast to turn around, fire and fire second time before Spy can.

So, going along with Valve's thinking, the thing to readjust was the width of "response window". With 35% slower firing you have 0.783 sec attack interval. That means, that even if you start with your bullet, enemy has ~0.15 sec to react (instead of 0.07sec which comes with Beta version).

One can argue if it isn't still too little. That should be tested, and if still not enough, penalty can be increased (keep in mind, that with 40% slower firing speed we get 0.812 sec attack interval -> "response window" is then nearly ~0.2 sec). I am just saying that it can be the way to actually make Enforcer strong, but balanced weapon as well.

No criting part is there to eliminate any possiblity of 144 crit and to make the gun behave all the same even on jarrated (etc.) enemies.

edit: InB4ButIAMProAndIWaitForAccuracySo1.25SecAnyway :) Your enemies don't have to wait (either they have shotgun-like weapons that can and are fired at minimum attack interval time, or they have enough health to get rescued in that 3.75 sec). Guys that use Enforcer with 1.25 sec delay aren't a problem for anyone.

Magnamancy
05-05-2012, 04:41 AM
What about it's affect against heavier classes R_a_k?



Otherwise: A sixth of a second, or the increase to 40% taking it
to a fifth of a second, doesn't seem like a meaningful time
window to give lighter classes a fair chance from surprise in,
but it should help light classes a lot in a straight up fight.

I don't know how good of a thing this is. Spy isn't supposed to
get into straight up fights in the first place and has the tools
to avoid it, and it allows the Enforcer to still kill light classes
it gets the drop on.

It should prevent obvious gunspy though and it's inability to
handle heavier classes may be a hidden balancing thing?

cheeseboy
05-05-2012, 06:27 AM
I don't like the current idea. The slower firing speed will prevent spamming, yes, but I prefer to wait for the cooldown as it is. Plus, if you catch a medic/other light class by surprise, you can still fire off both of those shots before he can kill you. Also, the upsides and downsides are completely based around battle spying, not giving you a more reliable fallback. I think this would be plausible if it had 15% damage bonus.

Makarni
05-05-2012, 07:29 AM
And what do we call taking out a engineer with the amby from sniper range?.

Really.. the enf caters to a diff play style. That's all. Stop hating.

The biggest role i use the enf for is for shooting poeple in the back. razor snipers.. or people who are to far away where shooting is quicker or less risk of spy check.

Thinking about it, the obvious change is to only give 20% dmg increase to back hits. this fills the role as a stalk and kill gun. Perhaps go as far as to say -20% dmg to front hits. Or.. no - front hit.. but reduce the accuricy so that anything above 10m or so will likely miss. A short range stalking back shot revolver. Imo has a good fitting role for alot of situations im sure most spys find themselves in.

Strings
05-06-2012, 02:30 PM
And what do we call taking out a engineer with the amby from sniper range?.

Really.. the enf caters to a diff play style. That's all. Stop hating.

The biggest role i use the enf for is for shooting poeple in the back. razor snipers.. or people who are to far away where shooting is quicker or less risk of spy check.

Thinking about it, the obvious change is to only give 20% dmg increase to back hits. this fills the role as a stalk and kill gun. Perhaps go as far as to say -20% dmg to front hits. Or.. no - front hit.. but reduce the accuricy so that anything above 10m or so will likely miss. A short range stalking back shot revolver. Imo has a good fitting role for alot of situations im sure most spys find themselves in.

This could work.

Something like:
100% minicrits from behind
normal damage from the sides
-35% damage while the target is facing you

Can't be used for self defense. Better for executions. Hit detection for back/front however might make this impossibly frustrating.

r_a_k
05-07-2012, 01:39 AM
What about it's affect against heavier classes R_a_k?
Let's be frank - even with current Enforcer, you aren't really a threat to full health demo or soldier in a face to face fight (if they are worth their salt. Sure, I can put newbie demo down even with stock revolver.. but not a good one). Heavy is also out of reach, for you will never stock up enough damage to kill him with enforcer (without crits anyway).

If they are hurt and you are just cleaning up, then sure - but this doesn't differ from cleaning up with any other weapon.

As for pyro and medic..
Fighting Pyro with your gun depends all on a distance (and if said Pyro has a flare). Yet, when we talk about distances Enforcer bonus damage starts to seriously count, we have to remember that is the effective range of airblast, fire particles, shotgun and flare - whatever tool Pyro picks, each of them capable of bring more hurt to you than you do to them. With decreased firing speed of Enforcer, Pyro has enough health to do even simplest thing in the world - set you on fire and switch to shotty.

Last non-light class is Medic - and while this nerf doesn't affect such matchup in direct way, it is never about Medic defending themselves. And their pockets do benefit, having more time to protect his moving healthpack.


Otherwise: A sixth of a second, or the increase to 40% taking it
to a fifth of a second, doesn't seem like a meaningful time
window to give lighter classes a fair chance from surprise in,
but it should help light classes a lot in a straight up fight.

I'd like to disagree. A fifth or sixth of a second might seem a short time, but I encourage anyone to get into a game and just measure a time one need to turn 180 degrees and aim at random point - it is doable.

Moreover, let's remember that one shouldn't really allow Spy to get easily into max-dmg range without spychecking him - current enforcer problem is that when you are holding it you still can get spychecked (for example hit by shotgun), and fire twice before enemy can finish you -> after such change this behavior is ruled out.


I don't know how good of a thing this is. Spy isn't supposed to
get into straight up fights in the first place and has the tools
to avoid it, and it allows the Enforcer to still kill light classes
it gets the drop on.

It should prevent obvious gunspy though and it's inability to
handle heavier classes may be a hidden balancing thing?
I'd say it isn't hidden - as slower firing speed means more time for enemies to fire at you, it is quite in plain sight :)
But yes, for me it is definitely balancing factor - and, I guess, also for a Valve, as their try such solution in Beta (we differ just about necessary nerf magnitude)

KajiVena
05-07-2012, 09:03 AM
In a theorycraft enviroment, slower firing speed is a serious downside.

Strings
05-07-2012, 10:30 AM
In a theorycraft enviroment, slower firing speed is a serious downside.

It can be. It all depends on the value, which can be perfected through feedback and iteration.

Magnamancy
05-08-2012, 05:14 PM
Alright, I think you're still overestimating reaction time in a
game R_a_k, but that's neither here nor there.

There's both support and opposition for this idea, and since it
looks like another where neither side will give or has proven
that the other is completely and totally wrong, I'll pass it
through so we can move on.



Next up!

(11.)
+20% damage bonus
1 sec increase in time taken to cloak
1 sec arming delay on feign death

First Enforcer, + 1/2 a second that also hits the DR.

Is such a cloaking nerf a real balancing factor for +20% damage?

Aznbkd19
05-08-2012, 05:15 PM
11 is gay. Next.

KajiVena
05-08-2012, 05:52 PM
Ignores any possible future instant-cloak options.

Also is very stupid.

Magnamancy
05-08-2012, 06:51 PM
I agree. If there's no shown support for the suggestion by
tomorrow we can move on.

Mister L
05-08-2012, 08:28 PM
**CURRENT IDEA IN DISCUSSION**

(11.)
+20% damage bonus
1 sec increase in time taken to cloak
1 sec arming delay on feign death

******************************

The Questions:

1. What would the idea's effect be?
1a. Does it address previous issues?
1b. Could it be balanced?

2. What would be wrong with this idea?
2a. What does it fail to address?
2b. Is it unbalanced?

3. Is there anything that could improve this idea, and if so, what?


1. A powerful Revolver that draws it's extra power from the Spy's watches.
1a. It definitely solves the DR-negates-downside problem with the current Enforcer
1b. If it reduces or eliminates synergy with the Dead Ringer then it's balanced.

2. The DPS is 20% higher due to no penalized fire rate.
2a. Not entirely sure...
2b. With downsides like that, I can't be sure.

3. I have nothing in mind right now.

TurtleKing
05-08-2012, 09:14 PM
1. A powerful Revolver that draws it's extra power from the Spy's watches.
1a. It definitely solves the DR-negates-downside problem with the current Enforcer
1b. If it reduces or eliminates synergy with the Dead Ringer then it's balanced.

2. The DPS is 20% higher due to no penalized fire rate.
2a. Not entirely sure...
2b. With downsides like that, I can't be sure.

3. I have nothing in mind right now.

You serious?
This just substitutes current DR's friend, to C&D and Invisible Watch. The balance should fit with all the watches.

As others have stated, a terrible solution/idea.

r_a_k
05-09-2012, 12:31 AM
My biggest concern is, that (quite similar to -cloak ideas) it does nothing to fight itself (like: sure, you have problem with cloaking after killing your target, but target is already dead :D).

All that it would really change is making DR+Enforcer gunslinging impossible, in my opinion not enough.

Cap'n Funshine
05-09-2012, 01:59 AM
Why do people insist on keeping the 20% damage. That's the problem with this. Down it to 10% at least.

Also it needs to break the synergy of the Dr. Enforcicle set; make it break the DR somehow. Enforcer draws power from the cloaking device for extra damage, eg. 15% cloak drained on shot (miss) and 10% on shot (hit) for example.

Magnamancy
05-09-2012, 05:27 PM
Moving on!

12.
+20% damage bonus
30% slower firing speed.
-10 cloak on shot.

I put this idea forward as an unholy fusion of the two biggest
sides of the discussion, for the sake of seeing if it'd work or
not.


Why do people insist on keeping the 20% damage. That's the problem with this. Down it to 10% at least.

Also it needs to break the synergy of the Dr. Enforcicle set; make it break the DR somehow. Enforcer draws power from the cloaking device for extra damage, eg. 15% cloak drained on shot (miss) and 10% on shot (hit) for example.

5% more power still 2shots light classes, and is the most
noticeable effect of increased power, and that idea is already
in the suggestion options somewhere.

KajiVena
05-09-2012, 05:51 PM
Too much of a nerf for my liking.

TurtleKing
05-09-2012, 05:57 PM
Too much of a nerf for my liking.

Agreed. Too much nerf even for +20% damage.

r_a_k
05-10-2012, 02:07 AM
I do agree with Magna, that it is like joining Valve idea with Kai's.

So why not? I mean, Kai (+supporters) stated for long that slower firing speed isn't serious nerf, while I was stating that -cloak doesn't affect fight as it is -> this way we both should agree that this gun:

1) affects stuff we see important
2) has additional downside that isn't that important

;D

Honestly, I still think that
+20% dmg/35% slower firing/no crits
is better, but if that
+20% dmg/30% slower firing/-10 cloak
would be alternative liked more by everyone else I'd say it is OK as well.
For sure not an overnerf.

KajiVena
05-10-2012, 11:47 AM
Maybe not an overnerf to someone who thinks that the Enforcer Spy will always get a two-shot and thus has to have a downside which counters that entirely situational power.

Straight -cloak is better. Slower firing speed is a terrible idea.

Magnamancy
05-10-2012, 05:02 PM
... Ohhhkay, I do not want to start this discussion again, and
since the only support for it came from the idea that others
should like it more, I'm going to scrap it.


Next is:

13.
+20% damage bonus
Cannot activate cloak while active.


... So you make the script that on right mouse click swaps you
to knife and then cloaks, you get an almost nonexistant (ty Kaji)
delay on cloaking. This leave's it a smaller nerf version of
suggestion 11, but script writer indexed instead.

I've seen this idea a lot, so I'm proactively putting that there
this time.

KajiVena
05-10-2012, 06:55 PM
Ignores the fact that switching weapons negates while-held downsides immediately (see: GRU jumping).

Annoying, but not a good downside.

JPA32
05-10-2012, 07:01 PM
A downside shouldn't be annoying and easy to negate... That just makes the downside a pointless arbitrary obstacle that serves no ultimate purpose.

Terrible idea.

KajiVena
05-10-2012, 07:12 PM
... So you make the script that on right mouse click swaps you to knife and then cloaks, you get a whole .67 second delay on
cloaking. This leave's it a smaller nerf version of suggestion 11, but script writer indexed instead.It's not even .67.

It's as freaking instant as the script/your client will allow.

r_a_k
05-11-2012, 03:05 AM
I agree, this implementation is bad.
However, there is a way to modify it:

+20% damage bonus
Cannot activate cloak when not having 6 bullets in clip

Reload time is 1.16 sec, and you cannot script it easily (as ther is no "reload", there is just "+reload" and "-reload"). I'd toss some additional, slight downside (my preffered is that about no critz, nevah ;D)

I am not a big fan of this idea anyway, but I remember SentryIsASpy and someone else being quite optimistic about half-honourbound approach ;)

Magnamancy
05-12-2012, 12:11 AM
Our dear Wats has more influence than he realizes.

That's what I remember to be his most recent conviction
though, so I'll throw it up there for discussion, along with
the no crits downside. =p


Next suggestion:

14.
+10% damage bonus
-15% cloak recovered from ammo sources


+10% damage still 2 shots very easily by the by, so that
utility is still fully intact despite appearing reduced. =p

KajiVena
05-12-2012, 12:51 AM
Our dear Wats has more influence than he realizes.

That's what I remember to be his most recent conviction
though, so I'll throw it up there for discussion, along with
the no crits downside. =pActually, from what I recall, his most recent conviction was -cloak per shot.

:cool:


Next suggestion:

14.
+10% damage bonus
-15% cloak recovered from ammo sources

+10% damage still 2 shots very easily by the by, so that
utility is still fully intact despite appearing reduced. =pEither a pointless downside (if it works multiplicative like all other percentages... Say a Spy gets 25% cloak normally. -15% from that would result in 22% instead...) or a powerful one? (25% becomes 10%)

Definitely a powerful downside if not multiplicative.

Not sure why the damage was reduced though. I'd say that +20% would be just fine with a non-multiplicative percentage.

Magnamancy
05-12-2012, 04:09 AM
Actually, from what I recall, his most recent conviction was -cloak per shot.

:cool:


Either a pointless downside (if it works multiplicative like all other percentages... Say a Spy gets 25% cloak normally. -15% from that would result in 22% instead...) or a powerful one? (25% becomes 10%)

Definitely a powerful downside if not multiplicative.

Not sure why the damage was reduced though. I'd say that +20% would be just fine with a non-multiplicative percentage.

If not multiplicative, even if just for the sake of the
discussion, I'm not sold on how relevant it'd be: Still
superb firepower for slightly stricter on the spot cloak
reserves.

Admittedly it's like your -cloak on shot idea, which at
least ties into combat punishment, but in terms of how
I see it working out it comes of more like the scrapped
cloaking delay function: Only relevant in combat once in
a blue moon and barely pittance of a nerf outside combat. =/

r_a_k
05-12-2012, 12:04 PM
Difference between +10% and +20% is distance of "2-shoting".

With 20% you can 2-shot 125 hp class from in 0-40% of max ramp-up distance (~204 game distance units).

With 10% you can 2-shot the same hp from in 0-16% of max ramp-up distance (~82 game distance units).

So, it has a purpose.

Other than that, like you've said Magna, its downside doesn't affect direct combat, it does affect what's after it.

(edit, just to explain, since I perhaps wasn't clear enough - I am not really supporting this idea. I just wanted to say, that there is a difference and a significant one: nearly to such degree that it wouldn't be, like Kaji below stated, worth to use this gun)

KajiVena
05-12-2012, 02:01 PM
Difference between +10% and +20% is distance of "2-shoting".

With 20% you can 2-shot 125 hp class from in 0-40% of max ramp-up distance (~204 game distance units).

With 10% you can 2-shot the same hp from in 0-16% of max ramp-up distance (~82 game distance units).So it becomes a useless weapon that would have no reason to be equipped at all.

No.

Bad idea.

There is nothing wrong with being able to two-shot light classes from ~205 hammer units

I'd only take the suggestion if it did not affect the damage.

Strings
05-12-2012, 08:25 PM
So it becomes a useless weapon that would have no reason to be equipped at all.

No.

Bad idea.

There is nothing wrong with being able to two-shot light classes from ~205 hammer units

I'd only take the suggestion if it did not affect the damage.

It's current purpose is pretty cheesy (hurr, stealth class not being stealthy). I wouldn't mind it getting a different reason to exist.

KajiVena
05-12-2012, 08:36 PM
It's current purpose is pretty cheesy (hurr, stealth class not being stealthy). I wouldn't mind it getting a different reason to exist.If by a different reason, you mean no reason at all, then I dislike you.

I have no quarrel with an option for Spy to become more gun-oriented than stealth-oriented.

Maddy Baddy
05-12-2012, 08:49 PM
If by a different reason, you mean no reason at all, then I dislike you.

I have no quarrel with an option for Spy to become more gun-oriented than stealth-oriented.

What about the fact that there are already 2-3 other gun oriented classes?

sniper

scout

heavy

Why does every class have to do every class' job?

KajiVena
05-12-2012, 11:07 PM
What about the fact that there are already 2-3 other gun oriented classes?

sniper

scout

heavy

Why does every class have to do every class' job?:rolleyes:

It's not being able to do every classes job.

It's allowing the Spy to be more gun-aggressive while doing his normal job.

Like what the DR does, but not OP like it is now.

Magnamancy
05-12-2012, 11:47 PM
I haven't seen any support so let's move on.


15.
+20% damage bonus
-25 max health on wearer


The downside trods on the Earner's toes unless the Earner is
adjusted too, but it allows the Spy to be both more powerful in
combat offensively and weaker in combat defensively.

Also leaves the Kunai with 35 Base/105 Overheal unless the Kunai
forces 180 Overheal. :3

roamzero
05-13-2012, 12:58 AM
I think 15 would work fine on the contingent that the Big Earner be reworked (i.e., instead of -25HP give it something like a 20% slower firing interval or on miss slash self). A change to make it more Kunai friendly would be to make the Kunai set your HP to a flat 60 regardless of other factors (would cancel out the downside, but IMO less meaningful than the way the DR does currently).

Magnamancy
05-13-2012, 02:13 AM
Idk if we can base any changes on expecting an Earner change. ._.
I'm still pushing for both it and L'Etranger, but it's been
gigantic just getting here with the Enforcer a year after
starting this project. There's no way to tell when it'll happen.

... A change to make it more Kunai friendly would be to make the Kunai set your HP to a flat 60 regardless of other factors (would cancel out the downside, but IMO less meaningful than the way the DR does currently).

After the direct upgrade with a watch thing I don't think it'd
be responsible to move to a direct upgrade with a knife thing. :/

cheeseboy
05-13-2012, 05:49 AM
No, because I like the Kunai.

CheeseSandvich
05-13-2012, 11:29 AM
35HP with the Kunai . . . bring it on.

Mister L
05-13-2012, 12:46 PM
15.
+20% damage bonus
-25 max health on wearer

I like this better, the Spy can take you down 20% faster, so why can't you do the same?

r_a_k
05-13-2012, 01:19 PM
I haven't seen any support so let's move on.


15.
+20% damage bonus
-25 max health on wearer


The downside trods on the Earner's toes unless the Earner is
adjusted too, but it allows the Spy to be both more powerful in
combat offensively and weaker in combat defensively.

Also leaves the Kunai with 35 Base/105 Overheal unless the Kunai
forces 180 Overheal. :3

I used to be supporter of such idea (esp. if paired with BE rework, that is needed anyway), but after some time I grew some doubts:

- sure, Spy gets 25 hp less, meaning he is easier to get killed. Yet, that is still 100 hp -> so you still need to fire twice (rocket, nade, shotty) at said Spy. So, in fact, it doesn't change that much.

- not sure, how much we can depend on Valve doing kunai and BE adjustments.

- also, it is quite flat compared with some newer ideas. I mean, not as interesting as other options..

So, I would say - not a best one.

Magnamancy
05-13-2012, 06:01 PM
15.
+20% damage bonus
-25 max health on wearer

I like this better, the Spy can take you down 20% faster, so why can't you do the same?

As R_a_k said, the math points out that where the Spy now 2shots
he still needs to be 2shotted same as before, not changing very
much nearly as meaningfully as the upside does.

KajiVena
05-13-2012, 06:48 PM
-25 HP is significant.

But I don't like it. Boring change and has nothing to do with the gun.

JPA32
05-13-2012, 06:52 PM
I don't think the guns should lower/raise HP. That seems like a strictly Knife thing.

Magnamancy
05-14-2012, 03:57 AM
Kaji is right, I just tunnelvisioned, but there's little to no support so
let's move on.

... turns out 16 was 14 a second time. Whoops.

17.
+20% damage bonus.
-20 Cloak on every decloak
Cannot see enemy health at all
Old bullet spread and accuracy recovery

A small punishment to conservative cloak use, no enemy health, and
assumingly worse bullet spread and recovery.

r_a_k
05-14-2012, 04:17 AM
What does it mean, exactly, "old bullet spread and accuracy recovery"?

roamzero
05-14-2012, 02:41 PM
What does it mean, exactly, "old bullet spread and accuracy recovery"?

All the other guns get Ambassador spread.

r_a_k
05-14-2012, 03:20 PM
All the other guns get Ambassador spread.

You mean, you want to give ALL revolvers 0.95 sec spread recovery, while leaving Enforcer with 1.25 sec?
If so, I somehow doubt Valve would do this (buffing all revolvers with 0.3 sec spread recovery bonus)..

roamzero
05-14-2012, 04:21 PM
You mean, you want to give ALL revolvers 0.95 sec spread recovery, while leaving Enforcer with 1.25 sec?
If so, I somehow doubt Valve would do this (buffing all revolvers with 0.3 sec spread recovery bonus)..

It's just something I threw out when I suggested my ideal change. A lot of people have wanted some more accuracy for the revolvers, but the existence of a +damage gun like the Enforcer throws a small wrench in the mix, but at the same time unlocks like the Ambassador have shown that a minor accuracy boost isn't exactly OP.

But the important part to look at is the -cloak on decloak. I dont think some players realize how important it is to keep a reserve of cloak and how often you go around popping in and out of cloak. I think it would hurt the CnD the most but it does affect all watches, and the precise number can be tweaked (even to a degree that it could work as the only downside, imagine losing 50 of cloak on decloak for example). The Big Earner also mitigates the downside slightly enough that the two work better as a set.

TurtleKing
05-14-2012, 10:26 PM
Kaji is right, I just tunnelvisioned, but there's little to no support so
let's move on.
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooo!
If only I had some extra time, to save it.:(

r_a_k
05-15-2012, 12:46 AM
@roamzero

Ambasador decreased spread recovery is paired with increased action time (that is, instead of 0.58 sec interval between shots, you do have to wait that 0.696 sec) and is strictly because of its headshoting utility.

Moving to next part:

-X cloak on decloak: my way of seeing it is similar to -cloak/shot, it doesn't affect combat in direct way. Also, I'd say it is not even as strong downside as -cloak/shot, because you have cloak regen going during the fight

About not seeing enemy healt - again, you do know how much health each class has at max. You can see how much damage you've dealt with each bullet - rest is simple maths. Sure, it would be annoying and would make picking wounded targets harder - but the way I see it, when you pull out your gun to kill someone, you keep placing bullets in them till they drop anyway.

so, in short - main downside weaker than -cloak/shot (which isn't my fav anyway :D), secondary downside annoying (which is enough for secondary, but with good and strong primary downside). Part about accuracy recovery I skip, because I don't belive in Valve reworking all other guns..

Don't like it (but it is only my personal view)

Magnamancy
05-15-2012, 05:55 AM
What could you have brought to the table that hadn't been
brought up Turtle?




Like with the previous one, I do not think it's safe to assume
other unlocks will be changed for this one at this point in time,
let alone unlocks I've put no effort forward towards changing.


On the other downsides:

Losing cloak on shot would mildly force full cloak usage, and
would discourage optimal cloak usage, making it a gun that
makes the Spy stronger but lowers incentive to learn.

Not necessarily a bad thing as it would encourage smart gunplay
and positioning. Increasing the number is largely moot though,
as beyond a point it can't drop the cloak below zero. =p

"Cannot see enemy health" has been discussed to death and I
agree with R_a_k's assessment of it.


Given that I wouldn't rely on the accuracy change happening, I'm
not overly fond of the suggestion, as I'm not convinced it'd do
enough even with a large number used to balance the bonus
damage gun against the Revolver.

TurtleKing
05-15-2012, 06:38 PM
What could you have brought to the table that hadn't been
brought up Turtle?




Like with the previous one, I do not think it's safe to assume
other unlocks will be changed for this one at this point in time,
let alone unlocks I've put no effort forward towards changing.


So you're saying we should give up on L'Etranger (who even valve admitted they messed up) & Big Earner?

You gave up too soon man. You were the one person to wake them up with constant emails regarding the lack of balance, even before the Enforcer showed up.

This downside alone would get them to work on the Big Earner, and L'Etranger and Kunai (fall damage immunity) if we are luck. For the people who claim the downside is not enough, you folks need to play with the Big Earner more often. It's a heck of a lot harder playing a 125hp spy vs 100hp (grab big earner and don't pick up ammo).

In summary, I believe this enough to justify Valve testing the downside.

By the way, if you equip this enforcer with current Kunai, I don't think you deserve to complain.

Magnamancy
05-16-2012, 03:52 AM
So you're saying we should give up on L'Etranger (who even valve admitted they messed up) & Big Earner?

You gave up too soon man. You were the one person to wake them up with constant emails regarding the lack of balance, even before the Enforcer showed up.

This downside alone would get them to work on the Big Earner, and L'Etranger and Kunai (fall damage immunity) if we are luck. For the people who claim the downside is not enough, you folks need to play with the Big Earner more often. It's a heck of a lot harder playing a 125hp spy vs 100hp (grab big earner and don't pick up ammo).

In summary, I believe this enough to justify Valve testing the downside.

By the way, if you equip this enforcer with current Kunai, I don't think you deserve to complain.

That is not what I'm saying, the second paragraph was changing
topics to the current idea who suggested changing unlocks I
wasn't addressing.
What I am saying is that after a year and progress in just 1
unlock it is not safe to assume others will get changed.

I am not and have not given up, but I reserve the right to quit
whenever I want to. ._.


We'll come back to your idea after the current one.

Magnamancy
05-17-2012, 02:43 AM
Is there anything left talk about with 17?


... The other Spy guns, sans L'Etranger, are very unlikely to be
addressed. So:
- Is '-cloak on decloak' a viable downside?
- Does the 'inability to see enemy health at all' pad the above
out enough to compensate for +20% damage?

Magnamancy
05-17-2012, 11:39 PM
I'm going to take the silence as a nope.

So, because TurtleKing is totally not holding my family hostage,
and by my own free will, we can discuss 15 again and see if Turtle
can change anyobody's mind.


For reference:

15.
+20% damage bonus
-25 max health on wearer


From previous discussion:

Pro
-It could be fine if the Earner was reworked.
-Kunai challenge mode.
-Spy could be taken down 25% faster.
-Might be boring but practical.

Con
-It's not a safe bet to assume the Earner will be reworked anytime soon.
-Kunai masochist mode.
-Spy might still be outside relevant damage thresholds.
-Might be boring but practical.

iBlewUpTheMoon
05-18-2012, 03:11 PM
If L'etranger are like brother and sister with the refill cloak ability, then turn the Enforcer to counter part to Your Eternal Reward, like: cannot disguise, but YER is only way to do so. first shot while disguised gives a +30 to +40% damage bonus, otherwise every fired shot while being undisguised deals -15% damage

Magnamancy
05-18-2012, 07:44 PM
If L'etranger are like brother and sister with the refill cloak ability, then turn the Enforcer to counter part to Your Eternal Reward, like: cannot disguise, but YER is only way to do so. first shot while disguised gives a +30 to +40% damage bonus, otherwise every fired shot while being undisguised deals -15% damage

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying for the most part,
but if you're suggesting the stats:

+35% Damage bonus while disguised
-15% Damage reduction while undisguised
Can't use disguise kit

I can certainly add it to the list.


On 15, there's literally no discussion, at all, so if nothing pops up I'm
going to move it along later today.

Magnamancy
05-19-2012, 01:42 AM
... And there we go.

Next up.

18.
+20% damage bonus.
0.5 increased cloak time
Unable to see enemy health
No random Critical hits

KajiVena
05-19-2012, 01:46 AM
Downside 1: Insignificant and non-existent with Dead Ringer
Downside 2: Assuming the current implementation, circumvented by disguising
Downside 3: lulz

Trebjonn
05-19-2012, 02:18 AM
Iv suggested it before, but why cant we just add the cloak time to how fast the spy can draw out the deadringer?

Make it have a longer delay so it wont be as reactive as now and gun spies have to be more planning or having to risk it.

iBlewUpTheMoon
05-19-2012, 03:33 AM
I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying for the most part,
but if you're suggesting the stats:

+35% Damage bonus while disguised
-15% Damage reduction while undisguised
Can't use disguise kit

I can certainly add it to the list.


On 15, there's literally no discussion, at all, so if nothing pops up I'm
going to move it along later today.

Thanks for adding my stats and sorry for that gibberish i wrote. Its annoying to write with Android phone in threads after it changes the words i write

Magnamancy
05-19-2012, 03:49 AM
Iv suggested it before, but why cant we just add the cloak time to how fast the spy can draw out the deadringer?

Make it have a longer delay so it wont be as reactive as now and gun spies have to be more planning or having to risk it.

Already discussed and shot down mercilessly. Check previous
pages if you want to see the talkings.

iBlewUpTheMoon
05-19-2012, 03:50 AM
Or another:
+20% damage increase from shots fired from close range
-20% damage penalty from shots fired from distance
Minicrits when headshotting
-10% accuracy compared to vanilla revolver (after it is a snubnosed revolver and to harden the chance of headshots)

r_a_k
05-19-2012, 05:08 AM
... And there we go.

Next up.

18.
+20% damage bonus.
0.5 increased cloak time
Unable to see enemy health
No random Critical hits

I don't like it very much. First, primary downside doesn't affect combat, it (like with other cloak-based solutions) affect aftermatch. Being unable to see enemy health was discussed already few times - it is good additional downside, but only when having serious primary one.
No random critical hits is a weak one as well, since big part of the game is played on no random crits servers anyway.

cheeseboy
05-19-2012, 06:08 AM
I don't like it very much. First, primary downside doesn't affect combat, it (like with other cloak-based solutions) affect aftermatch. Being unable to see enemy health was discussed already few times - it is good additional downside, but only when having serious primary one.
No random critical hits is a weak one as well, since big part of the game is played on no random crits servers anyway.

This.

Magnamancy
05-20-2012, 12:28 AM
Alrighty then.

Turns out 19 was a strictly worse 11, so lets go on.

20.
+20% damage when health <50% of max.
-20% damage when health >50% of max

Magnamancy
05-21-2012, 06:30 AM
Straight out of Spawn you're weak, and you have to carefully
evaluate if/when to heal, but lucky or properly managed health
nets you a powerful damage bonus.

Also a desperation style gun, although reliability would vary.


I'm not sold either way. It might be a bit too strong or
underpowered in practice.

mechamecha
05-21-2012, 07:13 AM
**CURRENT IDEA IN DISCUSSION**

(20.)
+20% damage when health <50% of max.
-20% damage when health >50% of max

******************************

Pointless.
It's not only unoriginal/unimaginative, it's bad, boring, and doesn't offer an alternate gameplay style.

r_a_k
05-21-2012, 10:43 AM
I don't like it very much.
Go down to 62 hp (or lower, in case of BE/kunai) to get bonus dmg, while having most of the time less dmg than stock version.. I might be wrong, but it seems to me that it would turn into unlock used less than BE.

Strings
05-21-2012, 11:34 AM
I don't like it very much.
Go down to 62 hp (or lower, in case of BE/kunai) to get bonus dmg, while having most of the time less dmg than stock version.. I might be wrong, but it seems to me that it would turn into unlock used less than BE.

For spys that use the revolver for self defense it isn't that bad, -20% damage is manageable and you get the damage boost when you need to defend yourself. Not as reliable as the current enforcer but we don't want that do we?

On the other hand it sort of rewards you for getting caught (still better than the current enforcer) and would have synergy with the dead ringer, using fiegns to stay alive below 50% health (again, not as abusive as the current enforcer). I think this idea has some potential.

r_a_k
05-21-2012, 12:04 PM
Problem is, that when you are going to utilise it, you are actually dead from one nade/rocket/shotgun salvo..

Risk is too high, to be worth the reward. Exactly like Shahanshah for Sniper - you don't see it being equipped like.. ever? Bushwalka, Tribalsman, even standard Kukri, but not Shahanshah. And for Sniper it is melee weapon, so you do use it when enemy is probably also using melee. Here we are talking about ranged dmg exchange.

Strings
05-21-2012, 12:59 PM
I find the simulation would not be so cut and dry. Spy doesn't fight soldiers by exchanging salvos, he waits till you are weakened or distracted. I understand that perhaps 20% bonus damage at <50% might not be enough reward for the risk but those variables can be altered.

KajiVena
05-21-2012, 06:39 PM
Enforcer does not need an entire rework to be made into a balanced weapon.

Frustraatio
05-22-2012, 12:57 AM
Critical hits are mini-crits, cloak delay also applies to DR. That's the balance this thing needs to discourage all the terrible spies from using this while still keeping it semi-useful for the ones who know how to use it. I don't really mind the spam that much but the current 144-dmg crits... I don't think that's balanced. You see, the Ambassador which is a lot more difficult to use only deals 102 dmg on headshot. The Enforcer has a chance of dealing 144 while spamming like hell.

Magnamancy
05-22-2012, 02:32 AM
It's worth noting that Spy has the tools to get out/stay
comparatively safe to utilize the damage bonus.

This suggestion has has very little support however, I'll move
things along tomorrow if nothing changes.



That'd be excellent Frustraatio but you provide no reasoning
for the universal cloaking delay being adequate, which has
been laughed at in every other suggestion it's been in, and
a 'no crits' nerf has already been established as not nearly
enough to carry the Enforcer as well.

I hope you can understand why I'm not taking it as a
suggestion until it gets some solid thorough reasoning
to counterbalance the pages of discussion on it's
components already.

r_a_k
05-22-2012, 04:42 AM
Going back to dmg modified by Spy health, I would rather have..

+15% dmg
damage is scaled down with user health percentage lost

(by that I mean, you start with +15% bonus, but if you are hit and lost 10% dmg, now you have +15% -10% = +5% only. If you lost 50% of your health, you have now +15% - 50% = -35% dmg..)

That would promote very careful playstyle, and would make defending against it easier (for, even hit for 16 hp is ~12% loss!)

Why do I use "lost health percentage" instead of "lost health" - simply to be OK with hp scaling weapons (kunai, BE).

Makarni
05-22-2012, 04:49 AM
Going back to dmg modified by Spy health, I would rather have..

+15% dmg
damage is scaled down with user health percentage lost

(by that I mean, you start with +15% bonus, but if you are hit and lost 10% dmg, now you have +15% -10% = +5% only. If you lost 50% of your health, you have now +15% - 50% = -35% dmg..)

That would promote very careful playstyle, and would make defending against it easier (for, even hit for 16 hp is ~12% loss!)

Why do I use "lost health percentage" instead of "lost health" - simply to be OK with hp scaling weapons (kunai, BE).

this is tf2.. with spread dmg, 1 hit melee crit kills and general direction flame throwers. How long do you think is the diff between 100% hp and 50% (if you even see it)?.

r_a_k
05-22-2012, 04:59 AM
That would be a factor that separates boys from men here ;)
Either you are good enough to pick angle where noone expects you and fire those 2-3 bullets with maximum bonus, or you are using bad spots, get hurt a lot and simply other gun would be better for you.

Plus, remember I am trying to make that Shahasanahshashasn-like idea of (+dmg when hurt, -dmg when OK) more viable.. because, with your reasoning you won't last after you've dropped under 50%, right?

I mean, compare current (20)

+20% damage when health <50% of max.
-20% damage when health >50% of max

with

+15% dmg
damage is scaled down with user health percentage lost

(by that I mean, you start with +15% bonus, but if you are hit and lost 10% dmg, now you have +15% -10% = +5% only. If you lost 50% of your health, you have now +15% - 50% = -35% dmg..)

which is more viable?

Solid Eglor
05-22-2012, 05:57 AM
Idea 20. is horrible. The enforcer was meant to make you deal more damage at the cost of your cloaking abilities and now it does something different entirely.

Magnamancy
05-22-2012, 06:32 AM
20 itself hasn't changed in response, so there we go.

21.
+20% damage bonus.
Short Stop pellet number and spread
No Random Crits

Huh. I didn't expect to see that idea again.

The Shortstop has 4 Pellets.

Edit math:
Base damage: 48
- Per Pellet: 12

Point Blank: 70-72
- Per Pellet: 17-18

Medium: 41-55
- Per Pellet: 10-14

Long: 24-26
- Per Pellet: 6-7




There are real life revolver shotguns (http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Beretta-revolver-shotgun-taiwan-1.jpg), before that's brought up. :|

KajiVena
05-22-2012, 07:40 AM
Enforcer does not need an entire rework to be made into a balanced gun.

Also, r_a_k, both suggestions are horrible.

And Mag, Spy does not have the tools to take advantage of the gun. He'll die well before he can do jack ♥♥♥♥.

Magnamancy
05-22-2012, 08:48 AM
Enforcer does not need an entire rework to be made into a balanced gun.

Also, r_a_k, both suggestions are horrible.

And Mag, Spy does not have the tools to take advantage of the gun. He'll die well before he can do jack ♥♥♥♥.

He has more escape and encounter-control tools than any other
class, which would be the tools needed for adequate use of the
mechanic, which was the point I was trying to make.

And that first statement is irrelevant, everyone should know
full well there's a huge number of ways to balance the Enforcer.
What we're addressing right now is how individual suggestions
would work.


Everyone, there's no use in simply saying you that you think
ideas are terrible, you need to at least say why you feel that
way. Same for supporters.
Every suggestion is owed it's due time and thought godammit,
if not then this's all been for no reason.

Makarni
05-22-2012, 09:09 AM
We drop dmg out put/actave survival for the fact that we can 1 shot somebody in the back.

Did the other classes drop something to 1 shot people from any angle with a all to common melee crit?, i think not. so whats the diff?.. i have to sneak behind somebody and hope they don't spy check.. anothe rclass just has to hope the dice rolls a crit?.. souns like much the same to me.. only their down side is what?.. if in rqange use a rocket laucnher.. if not.. use melee. sounds like up and up to me.


If you wanne talk about straight upgrades (enf+dr) and nerf.. lets also nerf other straight upgrades.. like 1 of 3 encounters being instant death by any angle melee crits.

the enf can kill mostly in 3-4 hits from situation to situation. People think thats just wrong!!.. but, a sniper who can head shot you from 5 million miles away.. then 1 shot you in melee.. is fine yo.

Take away the enf, feel free.. but allow the dagger to have crit chance from other angles like other melee.

NOOOO!!!! that would be wrong. Becuase realy, whast this boils down to is that people can only accept a being back stabbed. If you see a spy in any other circumstance he MUST die. Ok.. sure.

KajiVena
05-22-2012, 09:49 AM
He has more escape and encounter-control tools than any other class, which would be the tools needed for adequate use of the mechanic, which was the point I was trying to make.Escape and encounter-control mechanics have nothing to do with moronically engaging the enemy when you are at a severe disadvantage as a class who ISN'T known for durability.

Also, in that regard, it's also still a straight upgrade/weapon you'd only use with the DR.

And that first statement is irrelevant, everyone should know full well there's a huge number of ways to balance the Enforcer. What we're addressing right now is how individual suggestions would work.Yes, there are multiple ways of balancing the Enforcer.

What I want you, and every moron whose suggested one, to realize is that Enforcer does not need an entire rework to be balanced and work.

The best change propositions are the ones who realize this.

And those suggestions actually have a chance of happening, in comparison to an entire rework.

Everyone, there's no use in simply saying you that you think ideas are terrible, you need to at least say why you feel that
way. Same for supporters. Every suggestion is owed it's due time and thought godammit, if not then this's all been for no reason.Some suggestions are completely unneeded. Plain and simple. More firepower while at a severe disadvantage is one of those.

And while we're on it, I supported a Spy shotgun in the past, but this just severely gimps the Enforcer past close range, where it's not an issue. It's also an entire rework, which is not needed.

Strings
05-22-2012, 10:32 AM
20 itself hasn't changed in response, so there we go.

21.
Shortstop pellet number, spread and damage
Shotgun rate of fire and manual reload

Huh. I didn't expect to see that idea again.




Me gusta, but I think it should have the things I added to the schema.

Shotgun rate of fire to make it fair and manual reload to make it more cumbersome to wield.

EDIT: For the discussion: pellet spread means you need to meatshot (skill) to get the bonus damage which is nice.

Magnamancy
05-22-2012, 07:27 PM
What I want you, and every moron whose suggested one, to realize is that Enforcer does not need an entire rework to be balanced and work.

The best change propositions are the ones who realize this.

And those suggestions actually have a chance of happening, in comparison to an entire rework.

Some suggestions are completely unneeded. Plain and simple. More firepower while at a severe disadvantage is one of those.

And while we're on it, I supported a Spy shotgun in the past, but this just severely gimps the Enforcer past close range, where it's not an issue. It's also an entire rework, which is not needed.

Yes, I believe I said at the very least that a moron like me
understands that the Enforcer doesn't need to be entirely
reworked to be balanced, that there's any number of things
that could balance it.

I haven't supported the shotgun type Enforcer in a long time,
and idk who suggested it here, what I'm getting on you case
about is this idea that you get to pick what suggestions can
be idly tossed aside without a second thought.

If that were an allowable privilege I wouldn't even be here,
instead I'd have my own idea that I actually thought was worth
the time of day and I'd be badgering Valve all by myself.

Every god damn suggestion, even the remarkably stupid ones, are
owed an explanation as to why that is.

"It just sucks" is not good.

"It just sucks because... " is ALL that is needed.


Strings, I'm happy you like that idea, but the 21 in your quote
several thrown stones from the one being discussed.

I can add it to the list if you want, but since the Enforcer
already does around about or a little over shortstop damage,
it's all a series of big nerfs, particularly 2 out of the 3
'pros' and the manual (1 by 1 if I understand correctly) reload,
that leave the Enforcer unusable at most distances, a tricky
Revolver at point blank that's barely better, and useless for
facing down more than a single enemy, where the stock could've
done much better. It's a worse Revolver at anything it can do.

TurtleKing
05-22-2012, 09:19 PM
Magnamancy, I think perhaps it would be better to add more categories to the Main Post.

Such as:
-Recommended for Beta (can be pictured passing Beta Test)

-Plausible (Beta Testing only)

-Other (ideas that didn't get support or criticism)

-Foolish (Too much of an upgrade or downgrade)

Just my 2 cents.

Strings
05-22-2012, 10:14 PM
Strings, I'm happy you like that idea, but the 21 in your quote
several thrown stones from the one being discussed.

I can add it to the list if you want, but since the Enforcer
already does around about or a little over shortstop damage,
it's all a series of big nerfs, particularly 2 out of the 3
'pros' and the manual (1 by 1 if I understand correctly) reload,
that leave the Enforcer unusable at most distances, a tricky
Revolver at point blank that's barely better, and useless for
facing down more than a single enemy, where the stock could've
done much better. It's a worse Revolver at anything it can do.


With spread it becomes harder to hit for max damage but easier to hit glancing blows. I just didn't want it to be easy to spam glancing blows with a quick reload \ fast rof.

AlphaPenguin
05-23-2012, 02:05 AM
+20% damage

for

-10% max speed

or

-40% health.

r_a_k
05-23-2012, 02:22 AM
20 itself hasn't changed in response, so there we go.

21.
+20% damage bonus.
Short Stop pellet number and spread
No Random Crits

Huh. I didn't expect to see that idea again.

The Shortstop has 4 Pellets.

Edit math:
Base damage: 48
- Per Pellet: 12

Point Blank: 70-72
- Per Pellet: 17-18

Medium: 41-55
- Per Pellet: 10-14

Long: 24-26
- Per Pellet: 6-7




There are real life revolver shotguns (http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Beretta-revolver-shotgun-taiwan-1.jpg), before that's brought up. :|

Not sure if I get it right... I mean, is this proposition to change Enforcer bullets into shotgun shells with 4 pellets each? If so, then:

- big nerf at long range
- serious nerf at mid range
- big buff at mid-to-close range (it is statistically better to get partial hit with 3 of 4 pellets than to play hit and miss with 1 bullet)

Similar effect, but without changing revolver mechanics into some strange shotgun, we get with variant 9 (+50% max ramp-up; -15% damage penalty; no crits at all), difference is you are with hit-or-miss bullet instead of pellets.

In my opinion, 9 has much less to rework than 21, so easier to encourage Valve to implement it.

edit: additional thing is visual factor. Enforcer is revolver, having shotgun-like ammo would require different model (different drum, different barrel..)

Magnamancy
05-23-2012, 03:04 AM
I don't see what uselful information that would give TurtleKing
besides making things more comlicated than they need to be.

Accepted for voting covers:
-Recommended for Beta. (High hopes of working, leaving to voters)
-Plausible. (Could work, leaving to voters)

And discarded as foolish covers:
-Ideas without support or criticism. (Nobody cares to support or
bother to deny it, so it's very unlikely to get any votes anyway.
It's getting removed to clean up the pool)
-Foolish. (Silly, removed to clean up the pool)

I could do it by all means, I just want to avoid needless
complication, so what useful information would such a thing
yeild? What am I missing?



On the main topic, lets move on.

22.
+20% damage bonus
Jams for three seconds if fired during cooldown

Extra damage for have rudimentary timing skill.

r_a_k
05-23-2012, 03:51 AM
I don't see what uselful information that would give TurtleKing
besides making things more comlicated than they need to be.

Accepted for voting covers:
-Recommended for Beta. (High hopes of working, leaving to voters)
-Plausible. (Could work, leaving to voters)

And discarded as foolish covers:
-Ideas without support or criticism. (Nobody cares to support or
bother to deny it, so it's very unlikely to get any votes anyway.
It's getting removed to clean up the pool)
-Foolish. (Silly, removed to clean up the pool)

I could do it by all means, I just want to avoid needless
complication, so what useful information would such a thing
yeild? What am I missing?

From what I understand, TurtleKing proposes skipping voting and sending Valve just ideas that passed, with proper comments (recommended - they seem OK, and we believe it would be good idea to put them straight into Beta just to pick the best; plausible - we aren't sure if they are going to work, but testing in Beta would help a lot).

And I have to admit that it isn't terrible idea. I mean, sending them (Valve) 5, or so, variants with pro/con list and community opinion + link to whole thread, so they could read and decide by themselves..


On the main topic, lets move on.

22.
+20% damage bonus
Jams for three seconds if fired during cooldown

Extra damage for have rudimentary timing skill.

In practice it could be simply +20% damage bonus, action time = 1.25 sec - everyone and their dog who would use this variant would be also having means to measure countdown (simplest is reload time + a bit), and such implementation wouldn't require programming jamming mechanics.

Strings
05-23-2012, 07:02 AM
Discarded just like that? :P

It wouldn't play out just like '9'. -15% damage is a pathetic downside, missing out on ~6 damage at mid range for the ability to dominate close combat against other light classes. It would overshadow stock.


@r_a_k

Strange? Strangeness is an asset. Why do you want it to be a common revolver? About the visual aspect: You should know that it doesn't matter or the grenade launcher model would have only 4 grenades instead of 6 by now.





22.
+20% damage bonus
Jams for three seconds if fired during cooldown

Extra damage for have rudimentary timing skill.

Assuming the cooldown is 1.25s, like r_a_k said, then I can't see what benefit it has compared to the revolver. If the 'jam cooldown' was shorter (~0.7s?) and independent from the accuracy cooldown it would still have a higher 'time to kill' while retaining the rhythm aspect.

r_a_k
05-23-2012, 03:51 PM
(...)
Strange? Strangeness is an asset. Why do you want it to be a common revolver?

(pick at least one from list below)
1. Because best ideas are those who are beautiful but not overcomplicated.
2. Because shotgun is sloppy, non elegant weapon. Not for mentelgen!
3. Because amount of work required to add spread, pellets, accuracy etc is (as far as I can tell) significantly greater than just adjusting dmg and ramp-up.

Also, by would result much like 9 I meant "weaker than stock in mid-long range, benefiting in close range". Difference is, we can count quite close how much it would benefit in case of single hitscan bullet, while with "4 pellets shotty" it isn't as clear, due to spread etc - so also harder to balance.


About the visual aspect: You should know that it doesn't matter or the grenade launcher model would have only 4 grenades instead of 6 by now.

Perhaps it is just me, but I tought that if something isn't ok, then it should be corrected (a.f.a.i.r there was even 4-nade chamber project in Workshop), not to be used as an excuse for more abominations ;)

Strings
05-23-2012, 05:25 PM
It seems like you have two main issues with this idea.
1. Aesthetically spy shouldn't have a shotgun-revolver.
For this I have no argument since it is just opinion.

2. It is slightly more work for Valve.
The amount of extra work is very small. Using that as an excuse to toss out an idea is pretty uncool.

All I want is the +20% damage skill indexed in some way.

Magnamancy
05-23-2012, 10:53 PM
I can't let any ideas skip the voting stage, just like I can't
pick my favorites or dismiss suggestions without discussion.


Alright, Strings, I am not concerned with appearance as I've
already provided evidence that revolver shotguns could be made
in it's image, and the extra work notion is but a second
thought, I'm concerned with balance.

I said why I wasn't fond of the one you suggested, but I'll add
it to the list, because what your suggestion is very noticeably
different from 21 and should be treated as such.


Moving on:

23.
100% minicrits from behind
normal damage from the sides
-35% damage while the target is facing you

Solid Eglor
05-24-2012, 12:53 AM
Number 23. is a horrible idea since it has nothing to do with the original enforcer at all.

It's just some random new weapon.

r_a_k
05-24-2012, 06:00 AM
"Mini-crits add an extra 35% damage to a weapon's damage. Like normal critical hits, they ignore damage fall off, but unlike critical hits, they are still given ramp-up at close range and random spread."

So, if I am correct, shooting with variant #23 at anyone from behind results in 52 - 78 dmg (52 from any distance - since it ignores dmg fall off - up to mid range, and then goes up with dmg ramp-up).

I am somehow concerned about Spy getting behind enemy lines (easy thing) and then spamming..

Magnamancy
05-24-2012, 06:12 AM
If there's no counter arguments by tomorrow I'll move things along.

Strings
05-24-2012, 06:42 AM
"Mini-crits add an extra 35% damage to a weapon's damage. Like normal critical hits, they ignore damage fall off, but unlike critical hits, they are still given ramp-up at close range and random spread."

So, if I am correct, shooting with variant #23 at anyone from behind results in 52 - 78 dmg (52 from any distance - since it ignores dmg fall off - up to mid range, and then goes up with dmg ramp-up).

I am somehow concerned about Spy getting behind enemy lines (easy thing) and then spamming..


Revolver spread keeps you from spamming at long range and even then your target would turn to face before your next shot.

r_a_k
05-24-2012, 07:25 AM
My concern here isn't spamming speed, rather a fact that you can sit somewhere high and far, and do that 52 dmg / sec no matter how far your target is.

Sure, it isn't anything close to amby sniping, but on the other hand you don't have to hit the head, so it gives you far larger margin.

And, I am not saying it is bad or we should skip it. I am saying that I am not sure if it wouldn't breed a new kind of BattleSpy - guy that instead of doing his job, sits somewhere for most of the game and is trying to hunt for ranged 52+ dmg occasions.

Perhaps, we could think it into something that works with range as well?
Unless that long-range (mid-long-infinity here is the same, 52 hp) dmg capability is key point of idea?

(I am thinking about removing minicrits and adding dmg bonus/penalty basing on two factors: distance to enemy and is enemy facing us. For example:

+35% dmg if behind targeted enemy and distance < 1024 hammer units
-35% dmg if targeted enemy is facing us and distance < 1024 hammer units

or, with ramp-up:

+45% max ramp-up if behind targeted enemy
-45% max ramp-up if targeted enemy is facing us

or even:

+45% max ramp-up if behind targeted enemy
-35% dmg if targeted enemy is facing us
)

Strings
05-24-2012, 09:07 AM
Any of those could probably work.

Solid Eglor
05-25-2012, 06:39 AM
The easiest solution REMAINS removing all current stats and making it:

The Enforcer
+20% damage when at 15% cloak or more
-15% cloak when fired
No random critical hits

Selbi
05-25-2012, 07:13 AM
The easiest solution REMAINS removing all current stats and making it:

The Enforcer
+20% damage when at 15% cloak or more
-15% cloak when fired
No random critical hits

I actually have a question to that suggestion: What happens when you fire while having less than 15% cloak?

Trotim
05-25-2012, 08:11 AM
The opposite of +35% damage is -25% damage, will people ever learn how percentages work

I actually have a question to that suggestion: What happens when you fire while having less than 15% cloak?

You don't get the damage bonus

Strings
05-25-2012, 12:06 PM
The opposite of +35% damage is -25% damage, will people ever learn how percentages work

What do you mean?

EDIT: Oh, I see what you're getting at but it doesn't apply here since it is just conditionally modifying the base value.

Danikah
05-25-2012, 12:57 PM
Enforcer
Damage bonus is based on current ammo in clip
Correct disguise reload sounds
Single type reload (What shotguns have for example, reloads one by one.)
(Hidden downside: pressing R inserts only one ammo to the clip)

What this is going to do:

Damage scales with the ammo loaded.
6 ammo loaded means +25% damage bonus
5 ammo loaded means +15% damage bonus
4 ammo loaded means +5% damage bonus
3 ammo loaded means -5% damage bonus
2 ammo loaded means -15% damage bonus
1 ammo loaded means -25% damage bonus
The single reload and the continuously decreasing damage makes it excellent for surprise attacks, not so much for longer fights.
Currently, if you reload while disguised, you will fake the reload with your disguise, but only by movements, your revolver's reload sound play, not your disguise's weapon's reload sound. This Enforcer changes that.
The hidden downside allows for more convincing disguises. Soldiers reloading only one rocket seem out of place rather than normal. But if you can reload four times, your disguise seems more real.


What say you?

r_a_k
05-25-2012, 01:01 PM
The opposite of +35% damage is -25% damage, will people ever learn how percentages work

1.35 * 40 = 54 (or, if you prefer +14 dmg from base 40)
0.65 * 40 = 26 (or, if you prefer -14 dmg from base 40)

but don't you worry, next time you'll get it ;)

Trotim
05-25-2012, 01:57 PM
1.35 * 40 = 54 (or, if you prefer +14 dmg from base 40)
0.65 * 40 = 26 (or, if you prefer -14 dmg from base 40)

but don't you worry, next time you'll get it ;)

Oh man you're right, misread that, sorry - I thought it was another case of the usual SPUF poster thinking minicrits are negated by adding -35% damage or something

Magnamancy
05-25-2012, 11:27 PM
23 itself seems to be neglected enough to move on, but before
that I'll add Danikah's idea to the first post, and would you
like me to add any of those to the first post R_a_k?

r_a_k
05-26-2012, 04:57 AM
I was just giving ideas how to change (abusable) implementation of "minicrits from behind", and I think it is up to author of #23 to decide if he wishes to have any of those changes included into discussion.

As for me, to be honest, I am not sure if Valve would be willing to implement "check what vector is target facing" mechanics to revolver - especially since there are (in my opinion) some easier and more elegant changes.

Magnamancy
05-26-2012, 05:39 AM
Alright, and since 23 has been in and of itself left high and dry
I'll move things along.

24.
+20% damage bonus
Cannot activate cloak when there are less than 6 bullets in clip
Cannot crit

Danikah
05-26-2012, 10:15 AM
Cannot crit is good, but since the reload is quite fast (around 1 second) and it fully reloads the clip, I think the first downside would be just an annoyance rather than a proper downside.

Selbi
05-26-2012, 10:57 AM
Alright, and since 23 has been in and of itself left high and dry
I'll move things along.

24.
+20% damage bonus
Cannot activate cloak when there are less than 6 bullets in clip
Cannot crit

Seriously? I mean, like, seriously? How would something like that justify the damage boost at all?

r_a_k
05-26-2012, 03:51 PM
Seriously? I mean, like, seriously? How would something like that justify the damage boost at all?

In other words it is "if you fire, you cannot go invisible before you reload". Which means, enemy has (at least) 1.16 sec of hunting for you once you've revealed yourself with first bullet.

I am still not a big fan of that direction (since it affects survivability after fight, like "-cloak per bullet" variants), but I remember such half-honourbound idea have been advocated by Wats and Ungulateman (for example, here (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2513151)) - this one is just more elegant implementation (not basing on weapon switch, but on the fact you've used your bullet/s)

Magnamancy
05-27-2012, 01:52 AM
Would it be fair to say it plays out as a little over a second
cloaking delay, particularly with autoreload on?


I've seen cloaking delay ideas so many times I want to gouge
my eyes out, but that's not reflective of this idea. Are there
any supporters who wish to back this idea?

r_a_k
05-27-2012, 02:34 AM
Another question is, would this be more "serious" if such variant would disable _manual_ reload (so you'd have to fire all 6 bulltes)?

Magnamancy
05-27-2012, 04:28 AM
Another question is, would this be more "serious" if such variant would disable _manual_ reload (so you'd have to fire all 6 bulltes)?

Do you mean Can't be reloaded unless the clip is empty?

... Sounds like a frustrating mechanic. Easily more serious,
since there's no real option to cloak once engaged.

Alright, if 24 was:

+20% damage bonus
Cannot activate cloak without a full clip
Cannot reload unless the clip is empty
Cannot crit

What would be the thoughts on it?

Danikah
05-28-2012, 05:50 AM
+20% damage bonus
Cannot activate cloak without a full clip
Cannot reload unless the clip is empty
Cannot crit

Hm...

Maybe. Not sure about it.
But now it sounds better.
Though it somewhat fixes the problem with the annoying DR+Enforcicle spam, it may screw up non-DR users a bit too much, don't you think?

JacquesLEBS
05-28-2012, 05:58 AM
The Enforcer
+20% Damage
-20% Cloak on hit

L'Etranger
+20% Cloak on hit
-20% Damage

Enforcer increases your firepower but decreases your chance of escape, and vice verca for the L'Etranger, this also buffs the L'Etranger a bit to.

Thoughts?

Danikah
05-28-2012, 06:05 AM
The Enforcer
+20% Damage
-20% Clock on hit
That typo there made me lol my ♥♥♥ off.

On hit, you loose time. And spy has watches, hehe, geddit? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DontExplainTheJoke)

JacquesLEBS
05-28-2012, 06:20 AM
That typo there made me lol my ♥♥♥ off.

On hit, you loose time. And spy has watches, hehe, geddit? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DontExplainTheJoke)

It took me a few seconds what you were on about but then I realized what an idiot I am. XD

The Enforcer
+20% Damage
-20% Cloak on hit

L'Etranger
+20% Cloak on hit
-20% Damage

There we go Spy no longer losses his clock.

r_a_k
05-28-2012, 07:19 AM
(...)

The Enforcer
+20% Damage
-20% Cloak on hit

L'Etranger
+20% Cloak on hit
-20% Damage
(...)

well, -cloak/bullet ideas (variants #5 and #6) were already discussed, look at first page for reference :)

as for

(...)

Alright, if 24 was:

+20% damage bonus
Cannot activate cloak without a full clip
Cannot reload unless the clip is empty
Cannot crit

What would be the thoughts on it?

I'd say it is quite a big deal.
I mean you do have bigger firepower, but question IF to use it is also question of being unable to cloak.
From one side it is still affecting aftermatch - your victim is dead, and you cannot cloak (so, the same problem that -cloak/bullet has).
On the other side, it is far more harsh than -cloak/bullet, and one would really have to think about going battlespy with this..

I'd say, if #7 passed, I would pass that one as well.

Danikah
05-28-2012, 12:01 PM
I'd say, if #7 passed, I would pass that one as well.
I guess it would be something like the Ambassador: balanced by the fact that people cannot use it properly.
Think about it: if there's a guy who is able to land all his shots, what stops him? Nothing. It just a +20% damage and a sudden urge to (successfully) kill everyone around him if he wants to cloak.

Magnamancy
05-29-2012, 01:06 AM
Alright, if there's no counter arguments for

24
+20% damage bonus
Cannot activate cloak without a full clip
Cannot reload unless the clip is empty
Cannot crit

that by tomorrow we can move on.

Makarni
05-29-2012, 06:16 AM
Maybe kill 2 birds with one stone. Make a knife usefull.. balance a gun.

Mini set ''enforcement''.

connniver's kun - abosrbs health as normal, health decreases slightly faster though.

Enforcer, remove the cloak pen, reduce standard dmg to -10%.

Set bonus = For every 50 hp absurbed with conni, the enf gains 10% dmg caped to a max +20% dmg.

As the hp drains or is taken away.. every 50hp reduces dmg by 10% till its base -10% value.

The numbers are not fully correct, you get the idea though.

Magnamancy
05-29-2012, 07:56 AM
The Kunai is generally agreed to be fine save one or two minor
bugs though Makarni. :/ If you can give some evidence as to why
it's not useful the way it is go for it though.


Otherwise, lets move on.

25.
+35% Damage bonus while disguised
-15% Damage reduction while undisguised
Can't use disguise kit

Forces you to use the YER to even see the upside.

Makarni
05-29-2012, 09:16 AM
The Kunai is generally agreed to be fine save one or two minor
bugs though Makarni. :/ If you can give some evidence as to why
it's not useful the way it is go for it though.


Otherwise, lets move on.

25.
+35% Damage bonus while disguised
-15% Damage reduction while undisguised
Can't use disguise kit

Forces you to use the YER to even see the upside.

If it is fine why have i never ever ever ever ever seen another spy use it?. I used it for a little while, i simply could not figure out what the point in it was. You are a 1 hit kill until you get the first kill, you need to keep on back stabbing or you lose the health. If you are keep on back stabing why on earth do you need health?.. its obvius the team sux... and you could take em on with only 1 hp.

I just figured back stab engi.. take his hp.. sap sentry and then use the enf set bonus to try and take somebody out if you know stealth escape is unlikely. Ofc, basic example. Dont rage engi's....

r_a_k
05-29-2012, 10:02 AM
(...)
Otherwise, lets move on.

25.
+35% Damage bonus while disguised
-15% Damage reduction while undisguised
Can't use disguise kit

Forces you to use the YER to even see the upside.

I don't like it. First of all I don't like idea of forcing someone to use a weapon in order to make _another_ weapon (conditionally) worth equipping. Second - I don't like it is a YER not BE that is forced, for if anything it should be BE (as a part of set).

In my opinion - big no.

Danikah
05-29-2012, 12:18 PM
Forces you to use the YER
BAAAAAAAAAD.

A weapon should not force the usage/avoidance of an another weapon that directly. This is also the problem of the 90% of the proposed Axtinguisher/Degreaser nerfs.