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View Full Version : The boar and the gigantic tree [Possible spoilers]


death_au
04-23-2012, 03:54 AM
I believe I had the same issue in the iOS version the first time I played before I knew what I was doing.
I got the dark moon trigon first. And without revealing to many spoilers, this affected the giant tree at the center of the world. Now that the dark moon has waned the grizzled boor has appeared. I chased him to the tree, but... Then he disappeared. So... is that it? I just missed out? Or is this a bug?

Katrazaie
04-23-2012, 04:34 AM
I ended up doing that too and had to restart the game.

PCVXD
04-23-2012, 08:23 AM
Yup, tree split is no bear. Sorry :(

SweetNothing
04-23-2012, 08:27 AM
Yup, tree split is no bear. Sorry :(

Oh crud. Guess I'll wait till we're out of dark moon tomorrow and restart.

So it seems like if you start the game during a dark moon, you have the possibility to lock yourself out of any game advancement for 2 weeks unless you "cheat." Possibly not the best gameplay choice the devs could have made, as frustration can make people rage.

PCVXD
04-23-2012, 08:32 AM
Oh crud. Guess I'll wait till we're out of dark moon tomorrow and restart.

So it seems like if you start the game during a dark moon, you have the possibility to lock yourself out of any game advancement for 2 weeks unless you "cheat." Possibly not the best gameplay choice the devs could have made, as frustration can make people rage.

Yup, agreed. Only read if you already finished it:
I think that when the bear is in the tree and you do the trigon it should kill it, and when the tree is split it should just go in anyway. The bear should always show up. This would totally fix this.

SweetNothing
04-23-2012, 08:54 AM
Thanks for putting whatever that was in a spoiler. I presume it's an explanation for why that particular design choice was made. Although I'm curious to know, I haven't finished the game yet so I'll wait.

Hazz-JB
04-23-2012, 10:59 AM
This probably isn't relevent but I bought this game during a Dark moon and was in your situation.

I ended up cheating to get to play during the Bright moon and completed the game, but got the #honest achievment instead of the cheater one, not sure how that happened...

PCVXD
04-23-2012, 11:22 AM
This probably isn't relevent but I bought this game during a Dark moon and was in your situation.

I ended up cheating to get to play during the Bright moon and completed the game, but got the #honest achievment instead of the cheater one, not sure how that happened...

You probably didn't see the bear, did you?

Hazz-JB
04-23-2012, 11:41 AM
You probably didn't see the bear, did you?

No I didn't.

PCVXD
04-23-2012, 12:46 PM
No I didn't.

How did you get to the rock concert?

Hazz-JB
04-23-2012, 01:16 PM
How did you get to the rock concert?

After getting the 3rd trigon, I met the Grizzled Boor on one of the areas on the right side of the lake and he led me to the door in the meadow and let me in. I never got to fight him though.

PCVXD
04-23-2012, 01:43 PM
After getting the 3rd trigon, I met the Grizzled Boor on one of the areas on the right side of the lake and he led me to the door in the meadow and let me in. I never got to fight him though.

Ok thanks for the info, wondered what happend.

Freakservo
04-23-2012, 08:38 PM
Yeah, I remember running into this issue with the Boor not appearing after the tree is split on the iOS version. I sent an email to them about this sometime back. I got no response. =\

If it's intentional, it's pretty unbalanced. Why should this occur with the events of the new moon and not the full moon? Hm.

Oh, and...

...The Boor appears at the concert regardless of what happens to him in the game. I once killed him to get the 'Grizzled Boor' achievement, but he was there on cue to guide me to the concert after getting the third Trigon.

death_au
04-26-2012, 01:27 AM
I guess if there's #noboor I should go for the #cheater achievement this time around. Maybe after the half moon.

Capy_Nathan
04-27-2012, 11:17 AM
Hey folks,

This is how the game is intended to be. There are parts of the game that, when played out of moon phase or out of order, result in other parts being missable.

If you split the tree & fight the dark moon trigon first, you can't fight the boor.

Number 905
05-04-2012, 11:17 AM
That's a really poor design choice.

fiddler6
05-04-2012, 01:34 PM
That's a really poor design choice.

So you don't like games that have secrets? The whole game is unconventional and every decision we made, when isolated, could be called a poor design choice if you really wanted. But think of the game as a whole! It's great fun!:)

in.meinem.turm.
05-04-2012, 01:52 PM
But think of the game as a whole! It's great fun!:)

It is unless you play it on the wrong day. Well there's always getting called a cheater by the achievements or waiting. :(
I'm personally glad I mad a several day long break after episode II or I would not have gotten the moon grotto key.

Daavpuke
05-06-2012, 02:42 PM
I'm going to have to agree on poor design choice. Btw, I defeated the Bright Moon first and need to go for the Dark Moon and the bear doesn't show up either. So now I'm forced to either wait or cheat, because I wasn't omniscient enough to predict when to start the game, while other players can finish it in one session if they so choose? That seems unbalanced and unfair to me. Guess I'll wait for tomorrow and otherwise cheat and miss a slice of the game because tough cookies Nostradamus. Definitely not happy about that.

fiddler6
05-07-2012, 12:39 PM
Cheating is a positive choice in this case! We encourage you to cheat to get all of the achievements and encourage the game. It allows everyone to play it how they want to. Also, since it's possible to make it a short game you can play it whenever you feel like!
The reason we use Cheating Cheater as the name is because there's a ghost character in the game who is called a Cheating Cheater by his ghost friends who are also in the game!
Try to think of how flexible and encouraging the game can be rather than seeing these things as restricting and limiting. Everyone's experience will be different and subsequent playthroughs will be as well.

Daavpuke
05-08-2012, 06:14 AM
I've weighed out that possibility, kind of like how Metal Gear Solid requires you to perform a certain switch during the Psycho Mantis fight. Eccentric choices can indeed enrich an experience. However, I'm still sided to my point of view, as altering time still feels like "cheating" and that sits on one's conscience. To me, it just feels wrong to have it done so arbitrary through time periods you can't really predict when tackling the game and that leads to needless frustration. Hell, I still remember just how frustrated I was when I discovered how you had to get Meryl's frequency in MGS; just to stick to that.

If anything, this just serves at community feedback you can use as a post-mortem to see the reaction to your choices. Psychological evaluations to games are always interesting to see.

Sp_nce
06-03-2012, 10:50 AM
It's a bit of a drag, I saw the boar and was chasing him but the archetype's chair appeared and I got kicked out of my dream where the owls appear. Perhaps 'cause I was playing at the very end of a cycle (fair enough) or the dream had some arbitrary time limit (if that is the case, very frustrating). Finished on 95%

But it leaves something for a second play through in future years. Hopefully I can find some more of the secrets next time. It seems like a game that would have some.

+ one more note. I discovered I wasn't awarded the end game achievement until I opened the Steam overlay. Perhaps some sort of detection bug? I like the idea of being awarded achievements after a gameplay session. Because personally I find they detract from the experience- but might be a bug there.

Poki#3
06-21-2012, 01:39 PM
That's a really poor design choice.I agree.
In a game full of interesting secrets and real word connections, the "You can't fight the boar if you do the Dark Trigon" decision just... sucks.
Having to reset your game data always sucks. I don't see any good reason why I have to do that just to fight the boar. The boar even shows up and you can follow him... he just disappears when you get to the tree :/

Not I'm going to have to wait another month to finish the game again...

fiddler6
06-22-2012, 12:52 PM
I do and don't agree with your assessment that you have to start from scratch. Lots of games have miss-able secrets. You can't always get everything perfectly the first time and it's short enough that you can play it over and over. Also, that fight is not a requirement to finishing the game, it's all a bonus. It happens in all sorts of games; you did something in the wrong order and now you've missed this little secret thing that doesn't really affect anything. I don't understand why it's such a big deal in this game and not others (though maybe I'm not as tuned in to discussions about other games?).

The opinions are very much appreciated! I just want to understand the reason behind it to help us craft games in a way that doesn't cause aggravation.

Poki#3
06-23-2012, 08:19 PM
I'm not really good at explaining my thoughts, but I'll try. Some things that stick out for me are:

- The fact that after finishing the game you're back in the Trigon Grove and free to explore. This implies that you can still explore the word and look for secrets like this one.

- The fact the the Boar still shows up in the dream world and you can follow him. Then he just disappears near the tree. The fact that he disappears looks like a bug honestly. I was looking for him all over :/

- What other parts of the game are missable like this? The only extra that comes to my mind of the White Stag (I didn't do that yet, so no spoilers :P) but you can do that at any point, right (provided the moon phase is right)?

- The fact that you have to wait days and weeks for the right moon phases makes anything that's missed very costly. Yeah you can cheat, but some people would prefer to not resort to cheating. Most other games are longer, but also can be finished faster, if you know what I mean.

- The presence of achievements. Being a completionist etc. Honestly any missable achievements that you can't go back for an get later are in my opinion horrible. (just slightly better then multiplayer achievements).

I'm always annoyed by meaningful missable content that's also tied to achievements.

My turn: I'd like to know why you made the decision to have this scene be missable. I mean, I finished the game. I have 1 life. I want to explore the word some more and find the Boar in the dream. Why can't I fight him? The battle would be hard for me, sure, but that's my decision.

I'm not a designer, but I really like to listen to people that talk about making games, explaining why this and why that and trying to understand it all. I also sometimes like to break down games to their core designes and I don't understand this decision. Please enlighten me.

fiddler6
06-25-2012, 08:09 AM
@Poki#3
While I wasn't the designer and it wasn't my decision to make this skippable I believe it was done to be a fair bit like retro games that required you to complete certain tasks in a certain order. You must do A then B then C. If you complete A then C you won't be able to do B anymore. I think what might be messing you up is that it doesn't seem logical in the same way because it's just moon phases. If you think of it in the sense that by destroying the Great Mother Tree you won't have a place to fight the Boar it is a bit easier to understand. Yes, it just opens the area up and you can see where you would have fought the Boar but since you can't enter that area (the room only exists when the tree is intact) you won't be able to fight him.

Much of this game was built to give you a retro sense of things. Clues that aren't really clues. Secrets that may disappear. Cryptic messages or scenes. Slightly interpretive, wide-open storyline. Lots of magical moments. I hope that helps you understand a bit more of why the game was build this way.

Fytayn
07-23-2012, 12:31 PM
It's a relatively small thing but it's... Kinda hard to explain. In some ways I felt like the game was giving me less just for being "smart" and following the breadcrumbs. I happened to play the game on a dark moon and was all excited about waiting for the bright moon to finish -- I actually felt like this was something I didn't want to cheat for. But after the Boor appeared and I followed him to the tree, at which point he seemingly de-spawned, I checked some online info and found out how he worked. Kinda bummed me out about the game.

But I decided, "hey, why not finish the game while cheating for the achievement," and did so. Then, after restarting the day after the dark moon passed, I defeat the Boor and get the key only to find that it's kinda a different form of cheating -- just a 'legitimate' one. Well this kinda made the self who had excitedly done the dark moon trigon, and who had planned to wait, feel a bit lessened. Like that feeling of 'this game is worth waiting the time for' had been meaningless.

Hard to explain, like I said.

francesko
07-26-2012, 03:49 PM
Same happened to me: I started playing during a dark moon and since I didn't know about Boor nor it did appear I did the only thing I could do, obtaining the dark trigon. A few days later when I resumed my game Boor appeared but it was leading nowhere and that's when I found out I was screwed and had to start a new game (no boor = no moon grotto = having to wait days to finish the game and also no boor achievement).

Since the whole zone is just a dream couldn't you simply reset the tree state after you get the dark trigon and exit the area? That would definitely solve this Boor-ing problem.

Ssstn
07-27-2012, 03:19 AM
I like it the way it is. I too missed the Boor fight but to me it's not a big deal. I decided to get all the achievements so I would have to complete this game twice anyway to get the Cheating Cheater achievement (I'm taking the honest route on my first playthrough because it takes more effort, and I get to enjoy the game the way I think it's supposed to be enjoyed). Of course you don't have to cheat if you have access to Moon Grotto but that's beside my point.

francesko
07-27-2012, 03:31 AM
I like it the way it is. I too missed the Boor fight but to me it's not a big deal. I decided to get all the achievements so I would have to complete this game twice anyway to get the Cheating Cheater achievement (I'm taking the honest route on my first playthrough because it takes more effort, and I get to enjoy the game the way I think it's supposed to be enjoyed). Of course you don't have to cheat if you have access to Moon Grotto but that's beside my point.

You don't need to complete the game twice to get Cheating Cheater; after you finish the game you can re-play the final session as much as you want and get the achievement there.

-0mega-
08-02-2012, 04:40 PM
I've weighed out that possibility, kind of like how Metal Gear Solid requires you to perform a certain switch during the Psycho Mantis fight.

The Psycho Mantis fight does not actually *require* you to play with the 2nd controller slot. It's optional and just makes it a crapton easier/faster to kill him. There's multiple ways to beat him.

Not really relevant to this game, but since you referenced mgs I thought I'd clear that up.

Quoting old posts ftw.

sniperdoc
12-29-2012, 11:20 PM
@Poki#3
While I wasn't the designer and it wasn't my decision to make this skippable I believe it was done to be a fair bit like retro games that required you to complete certain tasks in a certain order. You must do A then B then C. If you complete A then C you won't be able to do B anymore. I think what might be messing you up is that it doesn't seem logical in the same way because it's just moon phases. If you think of it in the sense that by destroying the Great Mother Tree you won't have a place to fight the Boar it is a bit easier to understand. Yes, it just opens the area up and you can see where you would have fought the Boar but since you can't enter that area (the room only exists when the tree is intact) you won't be able to fight him.

Much of this game was built to give you a retro sense of things. Clues that aren't really clues. Secrets that may disappear. Cryptic messages or scenes. Slightly interpretive, wide-open storyline. Lots of magical moments. I hope that helps you understand a bit more of why the game was build this way.

I agree with some of what you explained, however, the manbearpig/boar issue is more frustrating because there's no definitive "you've screwed up. Game over!" Instead the player is left wandering and wondering, in my case for HOURS, trying to figure out why I couldn't open the moon mood cove door.

I shouldn't have to resort to digging through 10 play-through videos to see:
"oh... Where did that guy get that extra key to open that door?"
"oh, he got it from a manbearpig?"
"how do i find that guy? I never saw the manbearpig anywhere?"

Sure I saw a clue about shifting time through the settings menu (ingenious as it was!), but I received no hint to the fact that this was linked to the manbearpig. At this point, I'm still stuck, on my Tab10.1, with only the first trigon and the brightmoon trigon unlocked, and no way to open the grotto. So, will the manbearpig be unlocked if:
1. I wait for the proper moon phase in real life?
2. Or, if I cheat by changing the settings on my droid?

No one really explained something to this effect or hinted that the game is essentially unfinishable because "I lost my chance."