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View Full Version : Sniper Elite V2 - The Ultimate Sniping Simulator!


Senescent
04-30-2012, 02:44 AM
Youtube Link! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOyXsryXNHY)

Oh man, I hope they'll actually polish this game because it's pretty cool. Well, as long as you don't play like me.

Edit- Some people don't seem to understand the point of this video. Its purpose is to show the complete lack of a ballistics system when aiming without scoping in. There is no weapon sway or recoil. Stamina does not matter unless you look down your scope. The few missed shots in the video are entirely due to the ridiculously large crosshair. Playing this way shouldn't be even remotely feasible. I really hope they'll release a patch for this because, besides this and the linear tutorial mission, the game is pretty great.

Edit- Someone else recorded a video to "prove me wrong." (Which you can view here! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLbbvjWrmu4)) But unfortunately they've done something terribly wrong. Did you notice how they line up their shot by scoping in, unscoping and then shooting? Well, I've found another flaw with the game. The middle of your scope is in a different place than the middle of your crosshair. That means that his crosshair was not in the same spot as his scope. I've recorded another video to make it clearer. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejl4gS1wEZY) Now, look at these two screenshots. Please note that I've edited the contrast on the target so it's easier to see.

Taken right before I shoot (http://i.imgur.com/hBv20.png)

Taken as soon as I unzoom (http://i.imgur.com/GPIcq.png)

You may think that this is because of recoil but your weapon actually moves back to the original position after you're done firing. What other proof do you need?

z0rrer0
04-30-2012, 03:21 AM
This gotta make developers wonder WTF did they create xD

Hopefully a better AI and worst aiming from crosshair would make it.

Regards

jimrad1
04-30-2012, 03:56 AM
What? he couldnt do all that with just a knife?

Amateur!

:D

Inquisitioner
04-30-2012, 06:04 AM
Hah.. Guess that's one way to go.

iNerd
04-30-2012, 07:49 AM
This is sad. Hopefully it ain't the same in full version.

Senescent
04-30-2012, 01:12 PM
We can only hope. The game really has a lot of potential to be amazing as long as the levels in the full game aren't linear.

Raydog702
04-30-2012, 01:15 PM
This is sad. Hopefully it ain't the same in full version.


who cares? It took him like 3+ shots per kill. thats horrible.

aim using scope takes 1 shot per kill. and much much faster.

quanta78
04-30-2012, 01:18 PM
Wait, your telling me it's possible to run and gun as a skilled player?!

I can think of one, maybe two games tops that didn't allow this if you were a decent fps player.

rAdIOhEaD
04-30-2012, 01:18 PM
there is nothing to fix, a guy makes a video derpin' around and breaking the gameplay on purpose and the developers are supposed to fix the game? lol

Senescent
04-30-2012, 01:25 PM
If you can break the gameplay this easily it needs to be fixed.

rAdIOhEaD
04-30-2012, 01:32 PM
If you can break the gameplay this easily it needs to be fixed.

there is nothing really "broken" there, the guy knows where the enemies are because like many people he has played the demo a lot, he is just using the rifle without the scope, thus less precise than a scoped shot, thus taking longer to kill enemies.
what's there to fix?

Senescent
04-30-2012, 01:38 PM
"That guy" is me, just for future reference. Regardless of if I knew where the enemies are or not I could still achieve the same thing. The bullets are almost perfectly accurate when you're not scoped in. There is no bullet drop. There is no wind. The few missed shots are due to the ridiculously large crosshair. Stamina needs to come into play in third person, there needs to be weapon sway and recoil. The game needs a day one patch if they haven't all ready fixed this because if not it's completely broken. I'm sure they will get it all fixed up eventually but for now it's a shame because the game is pretty cool otherwise.

rAdIOhEaD
04-30-2012, 01:50 PM
"That guy" is me, just for future reference. Regardless of if I knew where the enemies are or not I could still achieve the same thing. The bullets are almost perfectly accurate when you're not scoped in. There is no bullet drop. There is no wind. The few missed shots are due to the ridiculously large crosshair. Stamina needs to come into play in third person, there needs to be weapon sway and recoil. The game needs a day one patch if they haven't all ready fixed this because if not it's completely broken. I'm sure they will get it all fixed up eventually but for now it's a shame because the game is pretty cool otherwise.

the game wasn't meant to be played derpin', runnin' and gunnin' without scope, you might be mad because that's the way you want to play it, but like I said this is a Sniper game not meant to be played like that, maybe if you whine enough and threat them to cancel your pre-order they will release a patch to please you so you can play "Mc Derpi-no scoping". Don't hold your breath thou...

Senescent
04-30-2012, 01:54 PM
I don't think you're comprehending what I'm saying. You can currently play "Mc Derpi-no scoping" as evident by the video I've posted. This needs to change, which is why I said that weapon sway and recoil needs to be added when aiming without scoping in. I don't enjoy playing this way, silly. It's just stupid that it's currently a feasible "tactic."

gatwizard
04-30-2012, 02:07 PM
Hmmzers. Growing multiplayer concerns... :confused:

Make the crosshairs hilariously big. Problem solved. Can't do that with the Welrod. I've tried. :cool:

Nice video. I can't believe I never tried that.

rAdIOhEaD
04-30-2012, 02:07 PM
I don't think you're comprehending what I'm saying. You can currently play "Mc Derpi-no scoping" as evident by the video I've posted. This needs to change, which is why I said that weapon sway and recoil needs to be added when aiming without scoping in. I don't enjoy playing this way, silly. It's just stupid that it's currently a feasible "tactic."

I understand what you are saying, but who would want to play like that? this is a slow-pace, precision-shooting sniper game.
If someone goes out of his/her way just to play like that, frankly he/she is playing the wrong game.
Should the developers patch the game to punish those who play like that? maybe, be like I said, whoever plays this game "runnin' and gunnin'"kinds of deserve the experience they are gonna get for for it. At the end of the day it's a single player game and they are just ruining their own experiences.

Hells High
04-30-2012, 02:14 PM
A rifle is a rifle; whether you are looking down the sights, using an aimpoint/scope, or hipfiring the damned thing. The round is going to go where you point it, so enough of this "bullet should fly 10 feet to the left" crap.

That being said, the game shouldn't be playable like this and I do hope it gets some tweaks.

Senescent
04-30-2012, 02:20 PM
A rifle is a rifle; whether you are looking down the sights, using an aimpoint/scope, or hipfiring the damned thing. The round is going to go where you point it, so enough of this "bullet should fly 10 feet to the left" crap.

That being said, the game shouldn't be playable like this and I do hope it gets some tweaks.

If the game was a true simulation this would be true. But if you watch interviews they clearly state that they're aiming to make a game first and simulator second. That's the reason for the exaggerated bullet drop/wind. If they're aiming for more "fun" gameplay, then this needs to be changed. It doesn't make any sense for gravity and wind to only effect the bullet when you look down the scope. Regardless of the specifics, I think we all agree that no scoping shouldn't be nearly this effective.

Rahab_mx
04-30-2012, 03:47 PM
I understand what you are saying, but who would want to play like that? this is a slow-pace, precision-shooting sniper game.
If someone goes out of his/her way just to play like that, frankly he/she is playing the wrong game.
Should the developers patch the game to punish those who play like that? maybe, be like I said, whoever plays this game "runnin' and gunnin'"kinds of deserve the experience they are gonna get for for it. At the end of the day it's a single player game and they are just ruining their own experiences.

well yes and no, if the same tactic can be aplied to multiplayer then they will ruin the entiere MP playerbase experience :(

Atomic Hamster
04-30-2012, 04:09 PM
If that starts happening in MP and ruining the game before it's even out I will hunt you down and get my money back from you. Why show every little COD kiddie out there how to break the game?

Ordain
04-30-2012, 04:28 PM
Most of you seem to miss the entire point of this video. The devs said this type of gameplay would not be possible and that you would easily die, and die a lot. On Normal, let alone Elite diff.

This video proves they lied and were incorrect. He is showing them it, and making it public knowledge for people know what they are getting into. The devs now have the ability that we know that they were wrong. They can fix it or leave it. I'd want them to fix it.

JoeFabooche
04-30-2012, 04:30 PM
Most of you seem to miss the entire point of this video. The devs said this type of gameplay would not be possible and that you would easily die, and die a lot. On Normal, let alone Elite diff.

This video proves they lied and were incorrect. He is showing them it, and making it public knowledge for people know what they are getting into. The devs now have the ability that we know that they were wrong. They can fix it or leave it. I'd want them to fix it.

Link where the devs said that...

gatwizard
04-30-2012, 04:32 PM
I guess we'll have to act like real snipers in MP and not be seen. And if they wanna run & gun, we've got trip mines and Thompsons.

SheD
04-30-2012, 04:49 PM
Why show every little COD kiddie out there how to break the game?

Would they not try it anyway?

Hope they fix this especially in mp.

jimrad1
04-30-2012, 05:17 PM
Lets all keep in mind one tiny thing. How many times did he play that demo level? 30? 50? 100? I do anything repetitive to that nature and I'll be pretty good to. Its already said, that demo level is one of the first missions, made intentionally easy to bring your skills in line for later. If its anything like the first Sniper Elite, first level was easy, they get harder, then they get brutal. I think if you play any level that many times, you find its quirks and take advantage of them. This certainly wasnt a first run on that video. :D

JoeFabooche
04-30-2012, 05:19 PM
Lets all keep in mind one tiny thing. How many times did he play that demo level? 30? 50? 100? I do anything repetitive to that nature and I'll be pretty good to. Its already said, that demo level is one of the first missions, made intentionally easy to bring your skills in line for later. If its anything like the first Sniper Elite, first level was easy, they get harder, then they get brutal. I think if you play any level that many times, you find its quirks and take advantage of them. This certainly wasnt a first run on that video. :D

^THIS! But now we only have to worry about multiplayer...

Senescent
04-30-2012, 05:20 PM
Lets all keep in mind one tiny thing. How many times did he play that demo level? 30? 50? 100? I do anything repetitive to that nature and I'll be pretty good to. Its already said, that demo level is one of the first missions, made intentionally easy to bring your skills in line for later. If its anything like the first Sniper Elite, first level was easy, they get harder, then they get brutal. I think if you play any level that many times, you find its quirks and take advantage of them. This certainly wasnt a first run on that video. :D

I'll say this again. It does not matter if I played it before or not. The core mechanics of the game are flawed, regardless of the mission. Just because it might be harder to pull off on later levels doesn't mean the problem won't still be present.

jimrad1
04-30-2012, 05:26 PM
I'll say this again. It does not matter if I played it before or not. The core mechanics of the game are flawed, regardless of the mission. Just because it might be harder to pull off on later levels doesn't mean the problem won't still be present.

Its kind of hard to tell off just one level. Id rather judge the game after its actually released. Then I have a full idea of what it is or isnt. :)

Senescent
04-30-2012, 05:28 PM
Its kind of hard to tell off just one level. Id rather judge the game after its actually released. Then I have a full idea of what it is or isnt. :)

I want the game to be better at launch as well but I still don't think you really understand. If you booted the demo up right now and starting shooting your rifle without scoping in, it is going to be almost perfectly accurate. Unless they have fixed that for release or are planning to patch it later it will not change from mission to mission. It's a core game mechanic, so if it persists in one level it will continue to the next.

DV8ing1
04-30-2012, 05:30 PM
Lets all keep in mind one tiny thing. How many times did he play that demo level? 30? 50? 100? I do anything repetitive to that nature and I'll be pretty good to. Its already said, that demo level is one of the first missions, made intentionally easy to bring your skills in line for later. If its anything like the first Sniper Elite, first level was easy, they get harder, then they get brutal. I think if you play any level that many times, you find its quirks and take advantage of them. This certainly wasnt a first run on that video. :D

It has nothing to do with him playing it several times or not. Yes he knows where the enemies are and yes he knows where to camp to kill them. The PROBLEM is that he just lines them up in the middle of the crosshair and pulls the trigger. There are no bullet ballistics at all when no scoping. No bullet drop, no obvious accuracy penalty from running/elevated heartbeat etc. I don't know if he was playing on easy or not by the footage (could have been doctored easily enough) but he did set it to REALISTIC which normally needs you to account for bullet drop and wind. He did not need to do that while no scoping, thus the broken mechanic being pointed out.

This WILL be a major let down if its in multiplayer.

jimrad1
04-30-2012, 05:35 PM
I want the game to be better at launch as well but I still don't think you really understand. If you booted the demo up right now and starting shooting your rifle without scoping in, it is going to be almost perfectly accurate. Unless they have fixed that for release or are planning to patch it later it will not change from mission to mission. It's a core game mechanic, so if it persists in one level it will continue to the next.

Well again hard to say until is released right? Demo's tend to be an early build, I believe even the community rep said this was an early build. Without a full product everything is speculation. Its like people now running around creating reviews from Demos. Its lame, I'd rather wait until I actually see it in full before Im convinced of what it is or isnt. Im just not in to speculative thinking based on small samples.

Im certainly not 100% on it, Ive not preordered, I never do that with any game. I'll wait and see what the feedback is on the full game first. I just cant seriously take only a small sample like this demo as concrete evidence that the game will suffer. Maybe Im a bit more optimistic I guess just based on their first Sniper Elite.

jimrad1
04-30-2012, 05:39 PM
It has nothing to do with him playing it several times or not. Yes he knows where the enemies are and yes he knows where to camp to kill them. The PROBLEM is that he just lines them up in the middle of the crosshair and pulls the trigger. There are no bullet ballistics at all when no scoping. No bullet drop, no obvious accuracy penalty from running/elevated heartbeat etc. I don't know if he was playing on easy or not by the footage (could have been doctored easily enough) but he did set it to REALISTIC which normally needs you to account for bullet drop and wind. He did not need to do that while no scoping, thus the broken mechanic being pointed out.

This WILL be a major let down if its in multiplayer.

Actually bullet drop has been one of the bigger complaints. That there is excessive bullet drop in just 200 to 250 meters. Ive seen bullet drop as well, its exaggerated in this game. I dont think they were shooting for a sniper simulation, the community rep stated as so. They mixing realism with game play, hence the exaggerated bullet drop.

Look at this chart, this is for an M-16 standard rifle, sniper rifles ballistic curves go farther out to 400 to 500 meters. In the game, your not seeing distances beyond much farther than 125 to 150 meters. There will be no bullet drop in that range.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:M855_drop_during_25-meter_zeroing_trajectory_M16A2_M4.jpg

They actually placed exaggerated bullet drop within 100 to 150 meters just so there would be a challenge. Heartbeat and wind dont become a factor in the short ranges your seeing in the game. They introduced some of it yet again exaggerated for game play.

.

Senescent
04-30-2012, 05:42 PM
Just in case anyone thinks I've edited the footage and I'm really playing on easy, if you look at 2:36 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BOyXsryXNHY#t=157s) you can see the wind gauge at the top of my scope, which only appears in the hardest difficulty setting. I guess I could edit that as well but hopefully that's more proof beyond just my word and the beginning. Also, just to nitpick, the reason I zoomed in for that shot is because it will not register unless you're scoped in. Which, in my opinion, is pretty lame. Hopefully the full game won't be quite this scripted.

DV8ing1
04-30-2012, 05:50 PM
Actually bullet drop has been one of the bigger complaints. That there is excessive bullet drop in just 200 to 250 meters. Ive seen bullet drop as well, its exaggerated in this game. I dont think they were shooting for a sniper simulation, the community rep stated as so. They mixing realism with game play, hence the exaggerated bullet drop.

Look at this chart, this is for an M-16 standard, sniper rifle ballistic curves go farther out to 400 to 500 meters. In the game, your not seeing distances beyond much farther than 125 to 150 meters. There will be no bullet drop in that range.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:M855_drop_during_25-meter_zeroing_trajectory_M16A2_M4.jpg

They actually placed exaggerated bullet drop within 100 to 150 meters just so there would be a challenge. Heartbeat and wind dont become a factor in the short ranges your seeing in the game. They introduced some of it yet again exaggerated for game play.

.


I agree. I never mentioned that I thought the game was realistic at all just that the core mechanics were not being taken into account while no-scoping.

jimrad1
04-30-2012, 05:58 PM
Just in case anyone thinks I've edited the footage and I'm really playing on easy, if you look at 2:36 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BOyXsryXNHY#t=157s) you can see the wind gauge at the top of my scope, which only appears in the hardest difficulty setting. I guess I could edit that as well but hopefully that's more proof beyond just my word and the beginning. Also, just to nitpick, the reason I zoomed in for that shot is because it will not register unless you're scoped in. Which, in my opinion, is pretty lame. Hopefully the full game won't be quite this scripted.

Just remember, its a game not a true simulation. I can point you to several military quality sniper simulations. You will end up paying a high price for them, but they will do what your asking of them. Trust me though, its not quite as fun. Its actually very monotonous with tons of math crunching. Some range from 250.00 to 1500.00 for the better version. Complete with charts on bullet drop, different powder packing, differences due to round type and manufacturer ect ect. Its just at 44.00, you cant ask a game to be a true simulator.

All first person shooters are games first, created to entertain.
.

Rahab_mx
04-30-2012, 06:03 PM
Guys good news, after watching the video i decided to run a few test on my own and found out ballistics ARE implemented when no-scoping you can try and confirm this with a simple test just by doing this:

Set a game with rookie AI, realistic ballistic system and moderate GUI aid

in the first alley crawling with soldiers kill all the soldiers except the sniper at the end of the corridor (with the AI set to rookie he wont be able to hit you so don't have to worry for getting killed nor taking cover)

once all soldiers except the sniper are dead do this

1.- from the wrecked building in which you start go to the main entrance all the way to the back of that hallway and go prone (you should be around 250-260 meters away form the sniper)
2.- using the scope aim to the sniper and focus to center the scope on the snipers head
3.- when the zoom is maxed out and the enemy sniper's head is centered in the cross-hair press CTRL (this will switch your aim from the scope to the the white third person cross-hair with the sniper rifle)
4.- shoot with the white cross-hair centered on the snipers head. you will notice the bullet impact hits way too low (like 4 feet) and a bit to the right (like a foot) proving ballistics are being implemented when non-scoping

why the guy in the video could hit the snipers without problems?

DISTANCE and position regarding the wind, when he shoots the sniper he is around 160 meters away and has to aim to the right with the wind in a tighter angle to his shoot (in our test we are 250-260 meters away with the wind hitting the bullet in a broader angle) so his shoot hits about 1.5 feet below and just a couple inches to the right, so while he is aiming to the head the shoot hits on the chest in the left (probably the left lung) killing the sniper, notice how he gets a "KILL" but not a "head Shot"

BTW, shooting with that white cross-hair is equivalent to use the iron sight, if you hit CTRL again to shoot from the hip (no scope nor cross-hair) you will notice a huge dispersion cone as it should be.

Senescent
04-30-2012, 06:09 PM
At what point in the video do I aim to the right to hit someone?

Rahab_mx
04-30-2012, 06:14 PM
second 33 you are not aiming to the right of the soldier, you are aiming to your right and since the wind comes from your left the angle between the wind and your shoot vector is tighter. This plus the smaller distance drastically decrease the wind effect

Senescent
04-30-2012, 06:16 PM
I honestly don't see it. The bullets are almost completely accurate. What about every other kill in the video? Heck, the one you're talking about doesn't even make any sense. The crosshair is too big to tell if I'm aiming at the head or not. You just aim at them, not any specific part.

Rahab_mx
04-30-2012, 06:22 PM
most of those shots where at 100 meters or less the bullet falls no more than a feet and the wind displace the bullet just a inch or two. not saying that you are lying or anything, just saying you should make a test at longer distance with fixed targets to have a reference point and see the ballistic effect.

Just try it as I say and you will find out that you will need to compensate for gravity and wind while no scoping :)

Senescent
04-30-2012, 06:29 PM
1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BOyXsryXNHY#t=31s) - 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BOyXsryXNHY#t=81s) - 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BOyXsryXNHY#t=139s) - 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BOyXsryXNHY#t=173s) - 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BOyXsryXNHY#t=181s)

You can't make much longer shots than those in the demo. I don't know how much more blatant it can be. There obviously has to be a bit of deviation from the crosshair but not enough to make any sort of significant difference.

jimrad1
04-30-2012, 06:38 PM
1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BOyXsryXNHY#t=31s) - 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BOyXsryXNHY#t=81s) - 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BOyXsryXNHY#t=139s) - 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BOyXsryXNHY#t=173s) - 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BOyXsryXNHY#t=181s)

You can't make much longer shots than those in the demo. I don't know how much more blatant it can be. There obviously has to be a bit of deviation from the crosshair but not enough to make any sort of significant difference.

Its easy, go into the demo, forget about AI, just pick a vehicle or flat area on a wall at the longest distance you can find, or least 200 to 250 meters. Aim at a spot, then watch where the bullet falls. Even then, the bullet drop is exaggerated. I know bullet drop fascination is really high amongst FPS fans, but they are never realistic. Isnt that the complaint? Not realistic enough? If you want actual realism, then at 200 to 250 meters there should be zero bullet drop. Check any sniper rifles ballistic on bullet drop over range. To me its sounds like, you want it to have unrealistic bullet drop, so it matches your personal version of bullet drop. Irregardless if its actually realistic or not. :D You cant have it both ways. If you really go into the demo, and do this scientifically and really objectively, you will see bullet drop.

Ordain
04-30-2012, 06:44 PM
Link where the devs said that...

http://www.destructoid.com/new-sniper-elite-v2-videos-are-looking-good-220201.phtml

Top video is the dev video, bottom one is a trailer.

Andrew Haith: "This is a game where you have to think your way through each encounter. Take your time and measure the situation first." , "A lot of the gameplay will revolve around stealth, if the enemy detects you at close quarter you are most certain to die."

Steve Hart: "We wanted to build this around a certain tension of whether to shoot, when to shoot and who to shoot. These are the key ingredients for the roots of the gameplay. If you run and gun in this game you will find yourself dead, quite quickly."

I made it for you didn't even have to watch the video.

JoeFabooche
04-30-2012, 06:46 PM
http://www.destructoid.com/new-sniper-elite-v2-videos-are-looking-good-220201.phtml

Top video is the dev video, bottom one is a trailer.

Andrew Haith: "This is a game where you have to think your way through each encounter. Take your time and measure the situation first." , "A lot of the gameplay will revolve around stealth, if the enemy detects you at close quarter you are most certain to die."

Steve Hart: "We wanted to build this around a certain tension of whether to shoot, when to shoot and who to shoot. These are the key ingredients for the roots of the gameplay. If you run and gun in this game you will find yourself dead, quite quickly."

I made it for you didn't even have to watch the video.

Well thats too d*mn bad isnt it? We will only know if thats the truth or a lie when the full game comes out now wont we?

Senescent
04-30-2012, 06:47 PM
I have a feeling neither of you speak English as your first language and I don't really know how to say this anymore simplistic. If you shoot from the hip the bullet may be effected by bullet drop/wind/whatever but not nearly as much as if you scope in. The two ballistic models are drastically different. I have said nothing of my personal preference or if I think it's realistic or not. It is currently broken, bottom line. The bullet should not drop more when you look down your scope.

Steve Hart: "We wanted to build this around a certain tension of whether to shoot, when to shoot and who to shoot. These are the key ingredients for the roots of the gameplay. If you run and gun in this game you will find yourself dead, quite quickly."

That is exactly why I want this to change so badly. It will ruin the game if left how it is.

jimrad1
04-30-2012, 07:02 PM
I have a feeling neither of you speak English as your first language and I don't really know how to say this anymore simplistic. If you shoot from the hip the bullet may be effected by bullet drop/wind/whatever but not nearly as much as if you scope in. The two ballistic models are drastically different. I have said nothing of my personal preference or if I think it's realistic or not. It is currently broken, bottom line. The bullet should not drop more when you look down your scope.



That is exactly why I want this to change so badly. It will ruin the game if left how it is.

Here's a good idea, make a video showing exactly this argument. ;) Show via video that the round is dropping more while scoped in, then the argument should end right?

Running and gunning through a demo isnt showing anything, just shoot a video with ballistics in mind. :)

Zarukei
04-30-2012, 07:07 PM
Don't you get more points for sniper the proper way, going through the way he did gets you less points.

Rahab_mx
04-30-2012, 07:08 PM
1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BOyXsryXNHY#t=31s) - 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BOyXsryXNHY#t=81s) - 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BOyXsryXNHY#t=139s) - 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BOyXsryXNHY#t=173s) - 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BOyXsryXNHY#t=181s)

You can't make much longer shots than those in the demo. I don't know how much more blatant it can be. There obviously has to be a bit of deviation from the crosshair but not enough to make any sort of significant difference.

1- 160 meters
2- 160 meters
3- 110 meters
4- 60 meters
5- 100 meters

On 4 and 5 you are in advantage point way above the targets which reduces bullet drop

You can make longer shoots if you do as i say here (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=30544664&postcount=36) (up to 266 meters) and notice the ballistic models are exactly the same for both in scope and iron-sight modes.

Think your problem is that a damage model where almost any hit will kill an enemy is too realistic for your likes (yea i know there are some weird shoots that should be incapacitating but are not, like the femur ones) and I do agree heart rate should be considered to increase the dispersion cone in iron sight mode at least for rifles, but saying there are no ballistics applied in iron-sight mode is misleading.

but hey look at the bright side, at the beginning of the tread you were saying there was no ballistic model at all

...Edit- Some people don't seem to understand the point of this video. Its purpose is to show the complete lack of a ballistics system when aiming without scoping in.....

and now you say there seems to be a ballistic model after all

If you shoot from the hip the bullet may be effected by bullet drop/wind/whatever but not nearly as much as if you scope in. The two ballistic models are drastically different.

We are making progress, little by little but progress after all

(btw, those white cross-airs are supposed to be iron sights, remove them and shot, you will see you cant hit the same place twice... that's shooting form the hip)

jimrad1
04-30-2012, 07:18 PM
Where the OP post is correct, the distances in the game are too short to represent a real sniper experience. Granted most engagements in WWII were at 125 to 200 yards, as far as game play its not realistic. At those ranges I can pluck targets out using standard iron sights with M-16A2 rifle. Hence this is why people can run and gun through this. The reason they didnt in the actual war IS, they didnt have health packs. :D Every video Ive seen has the gamer hit at least 4 to 6 times. If the developers want to prevent that, throw out health packs, and make it so 1 to 2 hits and your done. Still unrealistic, but I'd like to see people run and gun with that modification. They wont, because Ive not seen a video yet that shows them not getting hit 4 to 6 times. This is why I like the ARMA series, its not this forgiving. Typically its one shot and your done. :D Frustrating, but sure makes for better online play. COD players tend to stay with super health styled games.

Senescent
04-30-2012, 07:20 PM
I've all ready uninstalled the demo so I can't make another video. If you guys want to keep defending an incredible flaw in an otherwise great game, you can continue to do so. I've posted my blatant evidence and what you're saying isn't proving anyone otherwise. You record a video showing what you've supposedly tested, Rahab_mx. Because apparently what I and most others have played is an entirely different game than what you've played. But honestly, realizing the games flaws might get them fixed. No reason to defend it with nonsense.

Edit- Also, a game that had every bullet go in the same place every time would have a "ballistic model". What I meant by the game not having one when you shoot from the hip is that it does not have one that makes sense.

jimrad1
04-30-2012, 07:34 PM
.

Edit- Also, a game that had every bullet go in the same place every time would have a "ballistic model". What I meant by the game not having one when you shoot from the hip is that it does not have one that makes sense.

I have no idea what you just said there. Not sure who your trying to convince more, me or you. I shoot for a living, and I do not see the problems your seeing. I see exaggeration in the ballistics. Anywho.............. nearly time to download. Have fun all.

:)

Senescent
04-30-2012, 07:39 PM
I have no idea what you just said there. Not sure who your trying to convince more, me or you. I shoot for a living, and I do not see the problems your seeing. I see exaggeration in the ballistics. Anywho.............. nearly time to download. Have fun all.

:)

Every video game has its own ballistic model. Be it Call of Duty, Counter Strike, Medal of Honor, whatever. If in that game every bullet went exactly where you were aiming every single time it would still be that games ballistic model. What I meant by saying that there is no ballistic model is that it differs greatly from scoping to no scoping. Maybe it's my fault for wording it poorly, who knows? But once again, I'm not even talking about the bullet drop being exaggerated. What is your first language? Maybe if I ran it through a translator you might be able to understand.

JoeFabooche
04-30-2012, 07:41 PM
Every video game has its own ballistic model. Be it Call of Duty, Counter Strike, Medal of Honor, whatever. If in that game every bullet went exactly where you were aiming every single time it would still be that games ballistic model. What I meant by saying that there is no ballistic model is that it differs greatly from scoping to no scoping. Maybe it's my fault for wording it poorly, who knows? But once again, I'm not even talking about the bullet drop being exaggerated. What is your first language? Maybe if I ran it through a translator you might be able to understand.

Why the hell do you think this guy's first language isnt english? Maybe you're the one that can't speak/read proper english. His post is worded just fine...

jimrad1
04-30-2012, 07:42 PM
Every video game has its own ballistic model. Be it Call of Duty, Counter Strike, Medal of Honor, whatever. If in that game every bullet went exactly where you were aiming every single time it would still be that games ballistic model. What I meant by saying that there is no ballistic model is that it differs greatly from scoping to no scoping. Maybe it's my fault for wording it poorly, who knows? But once again, I'm not even talking about the bullet drop being exaggerated. What is your first language? Maybe if I ran it through a translator you might be able to understand.

I think you just explained it poorly actually. My language is fine actually. For one who's grammar is suspect sometimes, you shouldn't throw stones. That being said, to each their own. Ive no idea what your seeing, because you refuse to well....show us. You posted a video showing a person running and gunning so quickly, its hard to say what you were actually seeing. Your trying or attempting to teach someone who instructs people on ballistics......ballistics. Did I say I do this for living already? :D

JoeFabooche
04-30-2012, 07:43 PM
I think you just explained it poorly actually. My language is fine actually. For one who's grammar is suspect sometimes, you shouldn't throw stones. That being said, to each their own. Ive no idea what your seeing, because you refuse to well....show us. Your posted a video showing a person running and gunning so quickly, its hard to say what you were actually seeing. Your trying or attempting to teach someone who instructs people on ballistics......ballistics. Did I say I do this for living already? :D

winning

jimrad1
04-30-2012, 07:44 PM
Why the hell do you think this guy's first language isnt english? Maybe you're the one that can't speak/read proper english. His post is worded just fine...

Ohhhhh he's just being defensive, trying to prod an emotion, the whole "I must be superior in language" argument. Spelling mistakes, grammar mistakes excused on his end though.

Senescent
04-30-2012, 07:49 PM
I just downloaded the demo and recorded another video for you guys. If you guys deny me after you see it you're all hopeless. I have to render it and upload so it may take me a little bit.

jimrad1
04-30-2012, 07:51 PM
I just downloaded the demo and recorded another video for you guys. If you guys deny me after you see it you're all hopeless. I have to render it and upload so it may take me a little bit.

Okay, now we're talking. Well you should actually download the game, its out for preload, so forget the demo. :D In any case, this is the better way to prove or present your argument I agree. Maybe you are actually seeing something, but without any idea what, and Im not experiencing it, doesnt mean its not there. So yes, this is very welcome.

Cheers.

jimrad1
04-30-2012, 08:18 PM
Just some interesting info in the game manual. The rep said the first level is a training level. Who knows, maybe you didnt get to see how hard it really was. According to this, ballistics play a big part, as does wind and breathing. Since a lot of people were tagging targets under the hardest setting in the demo, and its not available under the Sniper Elite difficulty level, maybe no matter what setting you chose, it was CADET level.

Cadet
For players that want to snipe without too much of a challenge and no
bullet ballistics applied to sniper shots. All tactical assistance features
(Threat Indicator, Tagging, Ghost Image) are active.


Marksman
For players that want a fair challenge and a bit more realism. Your stance
will have an effect on your scope’s steadiness and gravity will affect your
bullets. All tactical assistance features are active.


Sniper Elite
For the ultimate challenge. The enemy will hunt you down relentlessly
and with brutal precision. Wind will also affect your shots and your heart
rate and stance will have a greater bearing on the steadiness of your rifle.
All tactical assistance features are disabled.

Rahab_mx
04-30-2012, 08:27 PM
If you guys want to keep defending an incredible flaw in an otherwise great game, you can continue to do so. I've posted my blatant evidence and what you're saying isn't proving anyone otherwise. You record a video showing what you've supposedly tested, Rahab_mx. Because apparently what I and most others have played is an entirely different game than what you've played. But honestly, realizing the games flaws might get them fixed. No reason to defend it with nonsense.

the only flaw here is your argument and your lack of maturity to accept your mistake.

your so called blatant evidence is no more than edited video where you shoot at targets so close the ballistic model makes little difference and then you say there is not at all.

I do accept the game is too easy and that at least the demo can be beat down with such cheap tactics, but the thing to blame here is the bullet sponge health regen model which the PR guy has already said its something devs could take a look at later. (i wont say is the AI fault cause having programmed AI before I know we will never be able to make it smart enough to make it challenging)

Anyway, enough words, here (http://youtu.be/uLbbvjWrmu4) is the "nonsense"

And remember guys if the quality of the video is not good enough for you, this is something anyone with the game or demo can try on their own, and if you don't do it is because you don't want to face the truth ;)

nick2730
04-30-2012, 08:29 PM
been deciding if i want to buy this. Im deciding no, until i hear reviews and or see its actually worth it. just to much risk rebellion has made some shaddy games latley. In this video he should have died so many times. I remember when rebellion released AVP it was riddled with bugs and lies. Im not falling for it again

Senescent
04-30-2012, 08:33 PM
the only flaw here are your comments and your lack of maturity to accept your mistake.

your so called blatant evidence is no more than edited video where you shoot at targets so close the ballistic model makes little difference and then you say there is not at all. that's a poor argument

I do accept the game is too easy and that at least the demo can be beat down with such cheap tactics, but the thing to blame here is the bullet sponge health regen model which PR has alreayd said its something dev could take a look at later. (i wont say is the AI fault cause having programmed AI before I know we will never be able to make it smart enough to make it human-like)


anyway, enough words, here (http://youtu.be/uLbbvjWrmu4) is the "nonsense"

And remember guys, this is something anyone with the game or demo can try on their own ;)

You do realize that the crosshair is in a different place than the middle of your scope when you unzoom, right? Anyway, here's proof that it's jacked up. Notice how my scope is in the middle of his body when I fire and it goes to the bottom right. I then unzoom and move my crosshair down and to the left in order to line up with the middle of his body and it shoots him in the face.

Video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejl4gS1wEZY)

JoeFabooche
04-30-2012, 08:39 PM
Dude seriously give up... You are wasting your time. The full game is out.

Senescent
04-30-2012, 08:44 PM
Dude seriously give up... You are wasting your time. The full game is out.

Give up because the full game is out? Yeah and I bet I could do the same thing on there. The game has a flaw, admit it. There is no way you can dismiss this now that I've recorded another video. Oh and just in case you don't believe me that the crosshair moves when you unscope, let me show you more proof. Your video is complete nonsense, Rahab. Stop trying to add to the debate when you have no idea what you're talking about.

(I've added more contrast to the man so it's more clear.)

Right before I shoot. (http://i.imgur.com/hBv20.png)

Right as I unzoom. (http://i.imgur.com/GPIcq.png)

nick2730
04-30-2012, 08:45 PM
Dude seriously give up... You are wasting your time. The full game is out.

Hes not, im not buying cause of it. Rebellion has some shady history

JoeFabooche
04-30-2012, 08:47 PM
Give up because the full game is out? Yeah and I bet I could do the same thing on there. The game has a flaw, admit it. There is no way you can dismiss this now that I've recorded another video. Oh and just in case you don't believe me that the crosshair moves when you unscope, let me show you more proof. Your video is complete nonsense, Rahab. Stop trying to add to the debate when you have no idea what you're talking about.

(I've added more contrast to the man so it's more clear.)

Right before I shoot. (http://i.imgur.com/hBv20.png)

Right as I unzoom. (http://i.imgur.com/GPIcq.png)

WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR DO IT AND STOP COMPLAINING

Senescent
04-30-2012, 08:47 PM
Hes not, im not buying cause of it. Rebellion has some shady history

Thank you. It blows my mind how some people just can't understand something so simple. I'm not buying the game until it's fixed either. Ignoring the problem will just let Rebellion have an excuse not to fix it.


WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR DO IT AND STOP COMPLAINING

Do what, buddy? I've given you two videos and two pictures. What more could you want? The three of you are wrong. That's the bottom line. I'm just trying to let people know that there is a game breaking flaw before they throw their $50 away.

JoeFabooche
04-30-2012, 08:48 PM
Hes not, im not buying cause of it. Rebellion has some shady history

I lol'd... You're missing out on a great game. One less tard in game is always a good thing

JoeFabooche
04-30-2012, 08:49 PM
Thank you. It blows my mind how some people just can't understand something so simple. I'm not buying the game until it's fixed either. Ignoring the problem will just let Rebellion have an excuse not to fix it.




Do what, buddy? I've given you two videos and two pictures. What more could you want? The three of you are wrong. That's the bottom line. I'm just trying to let people know that there is a game breaking flaw before they throw their $50 away.

what do you not understand about "the demo doesnt represent the full game"

Senescent
04-30-2012, 08:50 PM
what dont you understand about "the demo doesnt represent the full game"

I bet it does. Record a video and prove me wrong. Just be sure you do it properly and understand what you're trying to show, unlike the other guy.

JoeFabooche
04-30-2012, 08:51 PM
I bet it does. Record a video and prove me wrong. Just be sure you do it properly and understand what you're trying to show, unlike the other guy.

You "bet" I lol'd.

Senescent
04-30-2012, 09:00 PM
You "bet" I lol'd.

There's no need to be angry. Just report it to Rebellion and maybe they'll patch it.

JoeFabooche
04-30-2012, 09:05 PM
There's no need to be angry. Just report it to Rebellion and maybe they'll patch it.

How is "loling" angry? I lol'd. U mad cuz the game real game isnt broken and u based how the real game will be by a demo...

jimrad1
04-30-2012, 09:07 PM
I bet it does. Record a video and prove me wrong. Just be sure you do it properly and understand what you're trying to show, unlike the other guy.

Eesh guy calm down. :D Its just a game.

Just looking at your video, you reloaded, your mouse position changed. Then you corrected it. Thats not a very scientific method. Try doing it without reloading. 2 shots with scope, 2 shots without. If the gun barrel moves then your altering the results. I could see the barrel move up and to the left after you reloaded as you reaimed. Right after reloading, you can see the whole frame move as you adjusted your aim.

.

Senescent
04-30-2012, 09:12 PM
Eesh guy calm down. :D Its just a game.

Just looking at your video, you reloaded, your mouse position changed. Then you corrected it. Thats not a very scientific method. Try doing it without reloading. 2 shots with scope, 2 shots without. If the gun barrel moves then your altering the results. I could see the barrel move up and to the left after you reloaded as you reaimed. Right after reloading, you can see the whole frame move as you adjusted your aim.

.

This is why I need a translator. Read my original post because I've edited it. I moved my mouse because the crosshair is not in the same spot. You have no idea what you're talking about.

jimrad1
04-30-2012, 09:14 PM
This is why I need a translator. Read my original post because I've edited it. I moved my mouse because the crosshair is not in the same spot. You have no idea what you're talking about.

And thats the whole point, your adjusting the results in your favor. Sorry, you proved nothing other than you cant admit being wrong. IF what you said is true, you wouldnt have to adjust the shot. By doing so, your trying to hard to prove your right and everyone else is wrong. :) I suggest shooting someone down range who is standing up, not prone, its easier to make things out. :) Try another video. This time no moving the barrel. NOTE the other person demonstration video, no movement. His proves the point, your altering results.

GenericAmerican
04-30-2012, 09:17 PM
Hey. . .Gentlemen "and i say that lightly" Why don't you stop, take a breath, and stop fighting over a god damn video game?

It may be flawed, it may not be; does it make a difference? Not too me, I don't plan on trying too no scope everyone or whatever you guys are arguing about.

Senescent
04-30-2012, 09:18 PM
And thats the whole point, your adjusting the results in your favor. Sorry, you proved nothing other than you cant admit being wrong. IF what you said is true, you wouldnt have to adjust the shot. By doing so, your trying to hard to prove your right and everyone else is wrong. :)

I'm going to speak to you like a five year old.

Look at this picture. Do you see how the middle of the scope is on the bad man? (http://i.imgur.com/hBv20.png)

Now lookie here, buddy. Do you see how when I unzoom the middle of the crosshair is in a different spot? (http://i.imgur.com/GPIcq.png)

Do you understand now? Holy christ, are you really being serious? I had to adjust my shot because the middle of the crosshair is in a different spot than the middle of my scope. Also, since you can't understand basic physics, when I was scoped in the bullets were hitting underneath the man and a bit to the right. I moved my mouse down and to the left. How would that allow me to hit him? Please, explain it to me.

jimrad1
04-30-2012, 09:20 PM
Hey. . .Gentlemen "and i say that lightly" Why don't you stop, take a breath, and stop fighting over a god damn video game?

It may be flawed, it may not be; does it make a difference? Not too me, I don't plan on trying too no scope everyone or whatever you guys are arguing about.

Such a great idea, Senescent, you right Rebellion and let them know, and we'll go enjoy the game. :) Let us know what they say or when then act on your demands.

JoeFabooche
04-30-2012, 09:20 PM
I'm going to speak to you like a five year old.

Look at this picture. Do you see how the middle of the scope is on the bad man? (http://i.imgur.com/hBv20.png)

Now lookie here, buddy. Do you see how when I unzoom the middle of the crosshair is in a different spot? (http://i.imgur.com/GPIcq.png)

Do you understand now? Holy christ, are you really being serious? I had to adjust my shot because the middle of the crosshair is in a different spot than the middle of my scope. Also, since you can't understand basic physics, when I was scoped in the bullets were hitting underneath the man and a bit to the right. I moved my mouse down and to the left. How would that allow me to hit him? Please, explain it to me.

I'm loling so hard... You are so hooked on this demo. Keep diggin your grave man, its quite hilarious!

jimrad1
04-30-2012, 09:23 PM
I'm going to speak to you like a five year old.

Look at this picture. Do you see how the middle of the scope is on the bad man? (http://i.imgur.com/hBv20.png)

Now lookie here, buddy. Do you see how when I unzoom the middle of the crosshair is in a different spot? (http://i.imgur.com/GPIcq.png)

Do you understand now? Holy christ, are you really being serious? I had to adjust my shot because the middle of the crosshair is in a different spot than the middle of my scope. Also, since you can't understand basic physics, when I was scoped in the bullets were hitting underneath the man and a bit to the right. I moved my mouse down and to the left. How would that allow me to hit him? Please, explain it to me.

I know, you have to be right, so convince yourself your right and let the rest of us go on with life :D I think everyone will sort of get what logical people have BEEN trying to explain to you. But hey, if it makes you happy, walk away thinking your right. ;) We done now? :D I TOTALLY agree with you................you shouldnt buy this game. See? You are right.....with one thing.

Senescent
04-30-2012, 09:25 PM
I have all ready convinced a handful of people not to buy this broken game. I'm done responding to you three because it's obvious none of you can comprehend this simple problem. Anyone else that reads this thread can decide for themselves based on the evidence I've given. Regardless, hopefully Rebellion notices this thread and fixes the issue because it's pretty lame.

JoeFabooche
04-30-2012, 09:27 PM
I have all ready convinced a handful of people not to buy this broken game. I'm done responding to you three because it's obvious none of you can comprehend this simple problem. Anyone else that reads this thread and decide for themselves based on the evidence I've given. Regardless, hopefully Rebellion notices this thread and fixes the issue because it's pretty lame.

Dude its a f'in demo... Do you need a translator? Do you not speak english? Do I need to talk to you like a 5 year old? ITS A ♥♥♥♥ING DEMO

jimrad1
04-30-2012, 09:30 PM
I have all ready convinced a handful of people not to buy this broken game. I'm done responding to you three because it's obvious none of you can comprehend this simple problem. Anyone else that reads this thread can decide for themselves based on the evidence I've given. Regardless, hopefully Rebellion notices this thread and fixes the issue because it's pretty lame.

Just out of morbid curiosity, how will you ever know if its any different in the full game, if all you played is the demo? I know one way to figure this out, you and I in COOP mode. You go stand about 200 meters out, and I'll aim the rifle at your head, if the slow mo death cam shows me shooting your nuts off, then case closed. :D :D

nick2730
04-30-2012, 09:36 PM
I lol'd... You're missing out on a great game. One less tard in game is always a good thing

Spoken like a true homer with no concept of money or ideals. Got plenty of other games, its not my loss ill keep my 40 bucks and spend it on diablo III. Ill buy it when it goes on sale for 10 bucks and is actually fixed you can enjoy your impulse buy for 44.99

JoeFabooche
04-30-2012, 09:41 PM
Got plenty of other games, its not my loss ill keep my 40 bucks and spend it on diablo III. Ill buy it when it goes on sale for 10 bucks and is actually fixed you can enjoy your impulse buy for 44.99

Basing your decision to buy on a COD ♥♥♥♥♥♥ that wants to run and gun through the game... MAKES SENSE

nick2730
04-30-2012, 10:06 PM
Basing your decision to buy on a COD ♥♥♥♥♥♥ that wants to run and gun through the game... MAKES SENSE

It does, he should be dead. it shows a lack of AI and i wanted a challenging game

Anslem
05-01-2012, 04:19 AM
Good find, OP. Hopefully the devs see this at some point and patch this s**t up.

Would be a good idea to keep this topic bumped.

Sambo110
05-01-2012, 04:21 AM
The best sniper in World War 2 didn't use a scope as the glare gave away his position. He fired every shot with iron sights. So it's not unrealistic.