How big featureset compared to MOO2?

[dingoperson]

I'm thinking about buying this, but given the price and since it's an indie game, I'm wondering about the amount of content and feature set specifically. Just the things that stand out and add flavour, rather than everything being a slider bar or statistical +1% to X and -2% to Y.

For MOO I'd say:
- different races with pretty significant differences, and custom races
- constructing individual buildings on planets
- different types of planets
- a huge research tree
- ship design using a variety of weapon and nonweapon systems
- ship combat
- diplomacy
- random events and treasures/exploration
- heroes
- other minor bits: planetary invasions, espionage, fancy/different endings

Clearly not looking for precisely the same and I have already seen the combat model, but in the context of a list like the above, what features really stand out in the game?

[Zorlond]

Well, let's see here...

-races: 8 currently, and they each seem fairly unique, gameplay-wise. Not only different stats, but their tech trees are different, with some unique buildings sprinkled in.
---Cravers: Can't be at peace with anybody, designed for war and constant expansion.
---Sophons: Fast researchers but weak fighters.
---Sowers: Slow movers, eats half their factory production as food, can colonize anywhere right off the bat.
---Amoebas: Master diplomats and traders, very peace-oriented.
---(haven't tried the others yet)
-Each planet itself only gets one building of four possible, and possibly a moon exploration, negative planet trait reduction, or terraforming. All other construction is handled on a solar-system-wide level, which reduces micromanaging a lot.
-Planet types: barren lava desert arctic arid tundra ocean jungle terran asteroid gas-giant... 11 off the top of my head. A lot of planetary traits and resources (separate items!) increases the variability by a lot. MOO2 only had occasional planetary traits and resources. In ES they're all over the place.
-Simplified combat system, with RPS style offense and defense systems, plus tactical cards of 6 different types to turn the course of battle.
-Diplomacy isn't 100% yet, we're still in beta here. The AI's kinda simple-minded.
-Plenty of random events, but they're still being tweaked and balanced. Bad things tend to stay forever atm.
-Heroes with player-controlled skill development as they gain job experience.
-Invasions are system-wide, and are just a case of leaving a fleet in a system for several turns while you watch a bar fill up.
-No espionage atm.
-Multiple victory conditions: Wonder, Diplomacy, Economic, Technology, 300-Turn Score

[indrct]

Espionage is slated for future builds, however

[luinglin]

If you are a MOO fan, stay far away from this game.

The combat is a joke.

[Haldur]

If you are a MOO fan, stay far away from this game.

The combat is a joke.

Honestly, I didn't like the combat in ES at first, myself. But it's grown on me over time. 4X games are not about the tactical combats in any case, to the point where a lot of the best of them don't even include tactical combat at all.

I look at it as more of non-tactical combat, with a slight twist. You can still do it totally non-tactical by selecting quick-combat, and that puts you firmly on the side of more traditional 4Xs (Civilization, Alpha Centauri, etc.)

[InfyD]

If you are a MOO fan, stay far away from this game.

The combat is a joke.

weird, because I've been a MOO fan since MOO 1 and I think it's fine for what it is (which is a way of keeping multiplayer games snappy, without someone sitting there for ten minutes while other players resolve battles).

[Woofy12]

weird, because I've been a MOO fan since MOO 1 and I think it's fine for what it is (which is a way of keeping multiplayer games snappy, without someone sitting there for ten minutes while other players resolve battles).

Same here. I think calling it a joke is a bit harsh.

[InfyD]

Same here. I think calling it a joke is a bit harsh.

the tactical element has very much moved into ship design (do you make single-purpose kinetic ships & hope the other guy didn't bring lasers, or some sort of multi-role ship that might not be as effective) and hero customisation (some hero abilities unlock new tactical cards, although these cost you money to play).

it doesn't have the depth of MOO or SotS combat, but it does exactly what it is intended to do.

[Mivo]

If you are a MOO fan, stay far away from this game. The combat is a joke.

Different games are different. MOO was the arguably best game in the genre, few people will question that, but that doesn't mean other, newer 4X titles can't be fun or interesting. It's not like we're seeing a ton of intriguing fresh releases in this genre on a frequent basis.

As others have said, the ship design is in essence the tactical mode, and the quick combat does allow for faster, more MP-friendly games. Would I like to have the option for interactive, tactical ship combat? Sure. But the game is nevertheless extremely promising even in its current alpha-beta shape.

And if you want something new, what else are you really going to play?

[Meru448]

except the ship design is rock-paper-scissors which makes for some shallow choices.

[Rossignol]

The phase tactics method makes an interesting middle ground choice. The biggest split between 4X players would likely be combat. Some prefer deep micromanagement of every single battle, others see it as a necessary evil that slows down empire-building. Build a game too heavily in one direction or the other and you potentially lose half of a relatively small niche market.
The card-phase combat would likely be few people's first choice, but I'd think it a perfectly acceptable option for most.

The benefits of this method are that it gives the player some control over fights without becoming too much of a bog as the game advances. And, as InfyD pointed out, it's nice for multiplayer.

The cinematics are decent too, and improving as new patches fine tune the cameras. Few play 4X games for the graphics...but they don't hurt.

[InfyD]

except the ship design is rock-paper-scissors which makes for some shallow choices.

that isn't really true - unless you've neglected to install more than one type of armour, the winner of the battle probably isn't going to be whoever chooses the correct weapons or cards, but whoever has researched the most extra tonnage for their hulls.

at least, once you're past the earliest stages of the game that's true - you can't fit a heck of a lot on the early hulls.

[Mikoshi]

I like the combat for the MOST part, but feel like the options for ships need to be dramatically expanded. As it stands, like someone already pointed out, the one with the most tonnage, and passable defenses is going to win. Alternatively, make the cards do more. My experience was that I could almost not use ANY cards and the outcome wouldn't change much. The only one that seemed to have any large outcome was spamming the repair one so my fleet was fully repaired after I wasted them in the first phase.

Which rolls right into the problem of combat being OVER by the end of phase 1. Kind of defeats the purpose of the repair modules if everyone is dead by the time they would do something. I just get the feeling like there is a razor edge between taking no damage, and instantly dieing. Increasing overall hit points would probably solve that problem (or maybe just more hull classes to give more progression between tech levels)

To compare MOO2 and this, I'd argue that MOO2 definitely has the larger feature set. Since the diplomacy system in this seems kind of lack luster (but oh so much potential), fewer races, fewer techs, essentially no ground combat, no static defenses (a massive disappointment for me. Battle stations, planetary guns, missle batteries, and fighter squads are almost a requirement of 4X games imo). I like how improvements are system wide, it cuts down on micromanagement, but it also cuts into the depth when you can't do much of anything to the planets themselves.

I have a love hate thing going on with how they implemented "trade", but mostly hate how hard it is to even GET trade going. There should be no reason that you can't have trade between your own systems, hell even trade between planets could have been modeled, but only being able to invest into trade by befriending an AI (who is incredibly hard to please given the goofy diplomacy system in place. If your borders touch, you are mortal enemies until the end of time).

I will end by saying that the game was well worth the money I paid for it, and I do hope that it gets expanded upon down the road, but MOO2 is, and probably always will be, the pinnacle of this genre. While a certain paradox title will always be the Marianas Trench of the genre (I was one of the lucky ones that managed to get a refund on my 40 dollar "investment").

[Chthon]

Which rolls right into the problem of combat being OVER by the end of phase 1. Kind of defeats the purpose of the repair modules if everyone is dead by the time they would do something. I just get the feeling like there is a razor edge between taking no damage, and instantly dieing. Increasing overall hit points would probably solve that problem (or maybe just more hull classes to give more progression between tech levels)

I do agree that combats either take longer than 3 phases or don't ever last through phase 2. I think the problem is that in Phase 1 and 2 accuracy of ballistics is supposed to be lower because the target has longer to take evasive action. In Phase 2 and 3 the accuracy of missiles should be lower as they have less time to track their target and adjust aim. Currently the way it is you don't see much of an issue with any of these weapons in any phase. I think they should make the effects of firing out of phase more pronounced as a result.

More HP would just extend the problem honestly.