$40 seriously? [Archive] - Steam Users' Forums

Ardbug

07-14-2012, 12:31 AM

They never said it would be a weak port. They said it was challenging and they won't have time to fix the frame rate dips in a couple of the areas that are harder on the game engine.

What they said was :
"In terms of the PC version, the quick answer is no, [we won't be fixing the frame rate problems]. Because we wanted to get the PC version out as soon as possible, it's more strictly a port from the console version. We haven't been able to step up into doing any specific optimisation for PC." (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-06-07-from-software-having-a-tough-time-porting-dark-souls-to-pc-frame-rate-issues-remain)

And:
"As I said in the beginning, the game will be a complete port from the consumer version. Even for controls, I would recommend you use a gamepad. That being said, it’s pretty difficult to create really good controls with a keyboard and mouse." (http://www.siliconera.com/2012/04/17/dark-souls-prepare-to-die-edition-lets-you-play-as-sir-knight-artorias/)

Which, if you read it literally, says:
-Frame rate issues not fixed
-A rushed port (as soon as possible)
-A strict port
-No specific PC optimization
-A complete port even for controls
-Gamepad recommended
-No good controls with keyboard and mouse

I must assume that your definition of a "weak port" is vastly different from mine, because those 7 points pretty much define the very concept of a weak port in my mind, and we still haven't seen if it is in 720p or 1080p yet, or what the actual video options in general are, so there may well be even more points that would add to the conclusion that this is indeed a weak port.

So yes, they did say it would be a weak port, not with those exact words, but the words they did use describe the exact same thing.

Derangel

07-14-2012, 12:53 AM

What they said was :
"In terms of the PC version, the quick answer is no, [we won't be fixing the frame rate problems]. Because we wanted to get the PC version out as soon as possible, it's more strictly a port from the console version. We haven't been able to step up into doing any specific optimisation for PC." (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-06-07-from-software-having-a-tough-time-porting-dark-souls-to-pc-frame-rate-issues-remain)

And:
"As I said in the beginning, the game will be a complete port from the consumer version. Even for controls, I would recommend you use a gamepad. That being said, it’s pretty difficult to create really good controls with a keyboard and mouse." (http://www.siliconera.com/2012/04/17/dark-souls-prepare-to-die-edition-lets-you-play-as-sir-knight-artorias/)

Which, if you read it literally, says:
-Frame rate issues not fixed
-A rushed port (as soon as possible)
-A strict port
-No specific PC optimization
-A complete port even for controls
-Gamepad recommended
-No good controls with keyboard and mouse

I must assume that your definition of a "weak port" is vastly different from mine, because those 7 points pretty much define the very concept of a weak port in my mind, and we still haven't seen if it is in 720p or 1080p yet, or what the actual video options in general are, so there may well be even more points that would add to the conclusion that this is indeed a weak port.

So yes, they did say it would be a weak port, not with those exact words, but the words they did use describe the exact same thing.

They were given a very limited amount of time and money to do the port and it seems like everyone is expecting miracles here. As for your points:

1. Yep. Though that doesn't exactly mean it will have a bad frame rate, it means it will have dips in the taxing areas like the console versions. Potentially really annoying/really bad depending on the dips. The console versions only ran at 30FPS so even a small dip would be more noticeable.

2. It's the time they were given sadly, nothing that can be done about it. Still as long as the game works on release the time frame isn't important.

3. With brand new content that won't be on consoles until after the PC version's release. Did you expect them to make a new engine or use pointless DX11 features or something?

4. Umm that is the same thing you said in point 1.

5. Same as 3.

6. Well no crap. What about Dark Souls makes it seem like a game suited for keyboard and mouse anyway? It's a game designed specifically around a controller and it's going to work best with the control method it was designed for.

7. Basically the same as 6 but just note they said it's hard to make it work good with the keyboard and mouse they didn't say they weren't going to try. You make it sound like they are going to list a controller as a requirement and not even let you use kb/m.

*Headdesk.* For someone that pretends to be informed you are quite ignorant of proof plastered all over this damn sub-forum stating it MUST support 1920x1080 in order to be a GFWL title. MUST it is a requirement set by Microsoft. It has been said numerous times that he was talking about the texture resolution. As for options there was a site somewhere that saw the e3 build and said it had a few options. Pretty sure it's mentioned in the first post of the "Beware of false information about the port." thread.

FrozenMeat93

07-14-2012, 01:12 AM

40€ is a fair enough price, considering all the butt-pounding I will cause of Lower Undead Burg.

Yes. I plan on going SL01 Darkwraith and ruin everyone's early experience for at least the first few days before people can fight back properly. Na-hah-hah-hah!

Ardbug

07-14-2012, 01:32 AM

They were given a very limited amount of time and money to do the port and it seems like everyone is expecting miracles here. As for your points:

1. Yep. Though that doesn't exactly mean it will have a bad frame rate, it means it will have dips in the taxing areas like the console versions. Potentially really annoying/really bad depending on the dips. The console versions only ran at 30FPS so even a small dip would be more noticeable.

2. It's the time they were given sadly, nothing that can be done about it. Still as long as the game works on release the time frame isn't important.

3. With brand new content that won't be on consoles until after the PC version's release. Did you expect them to make a new engine or use pointless DX11 features or something?

4. Umm that is the same thing you said in point 1.

5. Same as 3.

6. Well no crap. What about Dark Souls makes it seem like a game suited for keyboard and mouse anyway? It's a game designed specifically around a controller and it's going to work best with the control method it was designed for.

7. Basically the same as 6 but just note they said it's hard to make it work good with the keyboard and mouse they didn't say they weren't going to try. You make it sound like they are going to list a controller as a requirement and not even let you use kb/m.

You don't disagree at any point that it will be a weak port, you just excuse it, which is fair enough seeing as you are a strong supporter of the game "no matter what state it is in".

1- So we agree, the frame rate problems they had on the consoles are still present on the PC.

2- The word used often is "lazy port", that does not imply that the developers are lazy per se, but rather allure to the fact that it was rushed, like DS.

3- The content isn't PC specific, it is also being developed for the consoles, so in that regard it's still a strict port even though that was not my point at all.
What I meant was more akin to the points that the framerate isn't fixed and the controls wont be good on Kb+M, basically it will play like on a console, even though I pay good money to get a better experience on my PC.

4- No, optimization is not the same as fixing one specific problem, optimization denotes a wider process of making the port play well on all fronts of the hardware it is being ported to.

5- I chose to add it since they specifically talked about the controls.

6- Why should it not work well on keyboard+mouse ?? just because there is no Kb+M on consoles doesn't mean they shouldn't put effort into making the Kb+M controls good, they themselves are already making excuses for the Kb+M experience. What exactly is it about the controls that makes it unsuited for Kb+M in your eyes ?
When Torchlight was ported to consoles a lot of effort went into making it suitable for gamepads, same thing applies.

7- They said "it’s pretty difficult to create really good controls with a keyboard and mouse" which would imply that they have not managed to make that happen, at no point did I claim that Kb+M was not supported.

*Headdesk.* For someone that pretends to be informed you are quite ignorant of proof plastered all over this damn sub-forum stating it MUST support 1920x1080 in order to be a GFWL title. MUST it is a requirement set by Microsoft. It has been said numerous times that he was talking about the texture resolution. As for options there was a site somewhere that saw the e3 build and said it had a few options. Pretty sure it's mentioned in the first post of the "Beware of false information about the port." thread.

I have not read every line of every post about the port, and last I checked there were no hard facts regarding resolutions, but I will definitely take your word for it.
Anyway it was not part of the premises I gave to claim that it was a weak port, it was more of a "what if" scenario after the points I already listed, but as I said, I stand corrected.

ONe mOMENT

07-14-2012, 02:07 AM

KrekerisT

07-14-2012, 02:12 AM

Im sorry you mean 39,99€?

Lepinkäinen

07-14-2012, 02:18 AM

I don't know if the steam version is worth the asking price. But when you can get the retail for $45 (https://content.ebgames.com.au/website/images/detail/157565_detail_1000.jpg). Seems a bit more worth it all up.

buying new on steam is usually more expensive compared to retail. In fact this is the case on all digital stores.

EDIT: in fact here that same retail version costs 40.49e, to the digital 39.99e. So yeah.

Benjamin Breeg

07-14-2012, 02:37 AM

If you haven't played it before, I'd say is totally worth it for $40, unforgettable experience. If is not gonna be better than the console version, at least is not gonna be worse either, and that version WAS WORTH every single penny of my $60.

If you have it on console, I'm guessing you'd better off waiting for a discount or just getting the DLC for the console.

I already have it for PS3, and I decided I'll be waiting for the discount to get it on PC too.

Pumpgunner

07-14-2012, 03:58 AM

Absolutely fair price considering that we will get the 20€ DLC as well.

netnerd85

07-14-2012, 04:35 AM

"As I said in the beginning, the game will be a complete port from the consumer version. Even for controls, I would recommend you use a gamepad. That being said, it’s pretty difficult to create really good controls with a keyboard and mouse." (http://www.siliconera.com/2012/04/17/dark-souls-prepare-to-die-edition-lets-you-play-as-sir-knight-artorias/)
Oh my god. What kind of drop kick says that? :eek: I mean, are you kidding? Definitely going to need a demo for this one. Not sounding good at all.

Pumpgunner

07-14-2012, 04:39 AM

Oh my god. What kind of drop kick says that? :eek: I mean, are you kidding? Definitely going to need a demo for this one. Not sounding good at all.

I am playing all my games on PC, but Dark Souls is one of those games which just isn't suited for M+KB to be honest. I even bought a new PS3 controller for the PC version.

Pumpgunner

07-14-2012, 04:40 AM

double post

Nexozable

07-14-2012, 04:51 AM

£29.99 for the PC version here on Amazon. It's not that bad of a price, considering you're getting DLC as well.

There have been worse ports on PC that charged £29.99 or more and they were developed by companies that have more experience on PC...

Black Ops, Ghost Recon Future Solider, anyone?

just_dont_do_it

07-14-2012, 05:07 AM

6. Well no crap. What about Dark Souls makes it seem like a game suited for keyboard and mouse anyway? It's a game designed specifically around a controller and it's going to work best with the control method it was designed for.
The only technical limitation of KB+M vs. last-gen controller is the lack of analog stick tilt data. "Half-presses" don't exist in KB world and the speed of M movement is a different thing.

However, Dark Souls do not have anything extensive tied to tilt. Just a standard "controller-look" functionality, and even that is just a clone of mouselook.

So no, it's not a game designed specifically around a controller. It's just a console game. And understandably, it uses the controller for input. But there's nothing "specific" about it. At all.

netnerd85

07-14-2012, 05:33 AM

So no, it's not a game designed specifically around a controller. It's just a console game. And understandably, it uses the controller for input. But there's nothing "specific" about it. At all.

Agreed. There never has been a good reason for lack of KB+M support for a PC game. It's an extremely basic thing to do, if you can't then don't bother making games. Same with custom key mapping, normally I use a games default keys but it's always good to have the option to change. If every game in the 90's could do it, then there is no excuse for today except being lazy.

Derangel

07-14-2012, 05:58 AM

You don't disagree at any point that it will be a weak port, you just excuse it, which is fair enough seeing as you are a strong supporter of the game "no matter what state it is in".

1- So we agree, the frame rate problems they had on the consoles are still present on the PC.

2- The word used often is "lazy port", that does not imply that the developers are lazy per se, but rather allure to the fact that it was rushed, like DS.

3- The content isn't PC specific, it is also being developed for the consoles, so in that regard it's still a strict port even though that was not my point at all.
What I meant was more akin to the points that the framerate isn't fixed and the controls wont be good on Kb+M, basically it will play like on a console, even though I pay good money to get a better experience on my PC.

4- No, optimization is not the same as fixing one specific problem, optimization denotes a wider process of making the port play well on all fronts of the hardware it is being ported to.

5- I chose to add it since they specifically talked about the controls.

6- Why should it not work well on keyboard+mouse ?? just because there is no Kb+M on consoles doesn't mean they shouldn't put effort into making the Kb+M controls good, they themselves are already making excuses for the Kb+M experience. What exactly is it about the controls that makes it unsuited for Kb+M in your eyes ?
When Torchlight was ported to consoles a lot of effort went into making it suitable for gamepads, same thing applies.

7- They said "it’s pretty difficult to create really good controls with a keyboard and mouse" which would imply that they have not managed to make that happen, at no point did I claim that Kb+M was not supported.

I have not read every line of every post about the port, and last I checked there were no hard facts regarding resolutions, but I will definitely take your word for it.
Anyway it was not part of the premises I gave to claim that it was a weak port, it was more of a "what if" scenario after the points I already listed, but as I said, I stand corrected.

I'm not excusing. It's not a black and white situation. It could be a bad port BUT we don't know yet. It's like you are completely writing it off without even bothering to give them any chance.

1. Yep.

2. But how could it be called lazy if it's just rushed? If it's rushed wouldn't that imply that the devs had to work their butts off to make it?

3. I could be completely wrong but from how NB and FS made it sounds the PC version is the reason this content exists since I recall them saying before that they didn't have plans to do DLC for the game.

4. But he was talking specifically about the frame rate issues when talking about optimization.

5. Understandable.

6 & 7. Yes but it doesn't mean they are going to give up and not try to make it good. That quote was from around E3 wasn't it? Depending on how far along they were on the port at the time there still could be plenty of time to work on things.

As for what I mean by the whole designed around consoles thing it comes down to how I define proper keyboard and mouse support. For me that means fully or nearly fully mappable controls, no mouse accel, more than a small handful of keys being used, a single key not being used to do numerous unrelated options (see: Space bar in Mass Effect 2 and 3), and other things along those lines.

Ardbug

07-14-2012, 07:26 AM

I'm not excusing. It's not a black and white situation. It could be a bad port BUT we don't know yet. It's like you are completely writing it off without even bothering to give them any chance.

Truth is I was looking very much forward to this when I heard it would release on PC, I dont play consoles at all but still it had managed to grab my attention even before anything was said about a PC release.
But yes the statements made by the developers was like a kick in the gut to me when I read them, I game on a i7 2700k with a GTX 680 on top, so as you can understand I value a smooth and nice looking gaming experience, and I am willing to pay for it.
So you are right, I have written it off as a weak port by now, although I really really wanted them to make it good, because it would sell like hotcakes on the PC had they made it good.
Like Alan Wake, Remedy spent a lot of time and money on the PC port, and they recouped that investment in just 4 days because it was widely recognized as a quality port !!!

1. Yep.

2. But how could it be called lazy if it's just rushed? If it's rushed wouldn't that imply that the devs had to work their butts off to make it?

I already said it has nothing to do with the devs being lazy, but the term "lazy port" is usually used when a port is rushed, so no it does not mean the developers are lazy at all :)

3. I could be completely wrong but from how NB and FS made it sounds the PC version is the reason this content exists since I recall them saying before that they didn't have plans to do DLC for the game.

Dark Souls sold more than 1.1 million on the consoles in Europe and USA alone, which (as I understand it) (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/gamehunters/post/2012/05/dark-souls-sales-top-1-million/1#.UAF49_UZlx5) was a lot more than they expected given the difficulty of the game.
So I suspect this DLC was already planned on the basis of those good sales figures regardless.

4. But he was talking specifically about the frame rate issues when talking about optimization.

You are actually right, it was wishful thinking on my part, I misread it.

5. Understandable.

6 & 7. Yes but it doesn't mean they are going to give up and not try to make it good. That quote was from around E3 wasn't it? Depending on how far along they were on the port at the time there still could be plenty of time to work on things.

As for what I mean by the whole designed around consoles thing it comes down to how I define proper keyboard and mouse support. For me that means fully or nearly fully mappable controls, no mouse accel, more than a small handful of keys being used, a single key not being used to do numerous unrelated options (see: Space bar in Mass Effect 2 and 3), and other things along those lines.

On that part we agree completely, when for example Skyrim launched on PC it had horrible Kb+M controls, the x axis moved twice as fast as the y axis, which is only there to make gamepad controls easier, but omg did it ever screw up the Kb+M experience, I did not play that again untill they fixed it in a patch, so we definitely agree.

I am playing all my games on PC, but Dark Souls is one of those games which just isn't suited for M+KB to be honest. I even bought a new PS3 controller for the PC version.

This one sorta applies to you too Derangel, I have asked multiple times why Dark Souls isn't suited for Kb+M, but I have not gotten a straight answer yet, what exactly makes it unsuited for Kb+M ??

Derangel

07-14-2012, 07:44 AM

Truth is I was looking very much forward to this when I heard it would release on PC, I dont play consoles at all but still it had managed to grab my attention even before anything was said about a PC release.
But yes the statements made by the developers was like a kick in the gut to me when I read them, I game on a i7 2700k with a GTX 680 on top, so as you can understand I value a smooth and nice looking gaming experience, and I am willing to pay for it, so you are right, I have written it off as a weak port by now, although I really really wanted them to make it good, because it would sell like hotcakes on the PC had they made it good.
Like Alan Wake, Remedy spent a lot of time and money on the PC port, and they recouped that investment in just 4 days because it was widely recognized as a quality port !!!

I already said it has nothing to do with the devs being lazy, but the term "lazy port" is usually used when a port is rushed, so no it does not mean the developers are lazy at all :)

Dark Souls sold more than 1.1 million on the consoles in Europe and USA alone, which (as I understand it) (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/gamehunters/post/2012/05/dark-souls-sales-top-1-million/1#.UAF49_UZlx5) was a lot more than they expected given the difficulty of the game.
So I suspect this DLC was already planned on the basis of those good sales figures regardless.

You are actually right, it was wishful thinking on my part, I misread it.

On that part we agree completely, when for example Skyrim launched on PC it had horrible Kb+M controls, the x axis moved twice as fast as the y axis, which is only there to make gamepad controls easier, but omg did it ever screw up the Kb+M experience, I did not play that again untill they fixed it in a patch, so we definitely agree.

This one sorta applies to you too Derangel, I have asked multiple times why Dark Souls isn't suited for Kb+M, but I have not gotten a straight answer yet, what exactly makes it unsuited for Kb+M ??

Alan Wake is an amazing port, but anything less would be disappointing coming from Remedy. I'm trying to keep my expectations low for Dark Souls and they've been low since day one.

3. That is true. It's hard to say, all we have to go on are what they've said before,

I didn't play Skyrim until it was $30 on Steam a while back but the thing that I really hated was that awful UI. So glad there was a mod by then.

It has to do with the type of game. Action games with more complex fighting systems are not really suited to a keyboard and mouse. A game like Skyrim, for example, works well when done right because quite frankly it's combat system is incredibly shallow. There is very little depth to it. In the case of something like Dark Souls or even a game like Darksiders or DMC4 there is just something about a controller that makes it feel more suited and generally better. It's just one of those things, not every game is going to be suited to every control method.

just_dont_do_it

07-14-2012, 07:54 AM

Action games with more complex fighting systems are not really suited to a keyboard and mouse.
Nope. It totally depends on the implementation. About 99% of action games can go well with standard KB+M limitations (no "half-presses", up to 4 (but better 3) simultaneous KB presses at max).

In fact, even the "non-typical" genres, like race/flight simulators can be easily adapted for a very decent KB+M controls quite easily, we already have many examples.

The only genre that doesn't really fit KB+M is the typical console fighting (and only because it's the genre born totally on consoles and for consoles), and only because it's became "defining" that you need to push LOTS of buttons there. I'm pretty sure that it's still possible to creatively adapt fighting game controls for KB+M, if someone devise a good way to make use of mouse.

Derangel

07-14-2012, 08:02 AM

Nope. It totally depends on the implementation. About 99% of action games can go well with standard KB+M limitations (no "half-presses", up to 4 (but better 3) simultaneous KB presses at max).

In fact, even the "non-typical" genres, like race/flight simulators can be easily adapted for a very decent KB+M controls quite easily, we already have many examples.

The only genre that doesn't really fit KB+M is the typical console fighting (and only because it's the genre born totally on consoles and for consoles), and only because it's became "defining" that you need to push LOTS of buttons there. I'm pretty sure that it's still possible to creatively adapt fighting game controls for KB+M, if someone devise a good way to make use of mouse.

Racing sims are horrible on a keyboard. You really need more analog control for them. Flight sims can work on a keyboard and mouse, I'm not sure if I would particularly call it good though. Keyboards are digital devices. It's either fully on or fully off so anything that needs more sensitive controls doesn't work as well. This is also the case with more complex fighting systems. Action games these days have fighting systems much more akin to fighting games than anything else. I haven't played a ton of Dark Souls, but from what I played of it and from Demon's Souls it seems like unless done amazingly well a keyboard and mouse would be a bit cumbersome.

Stupid on screen prompts aside, the Assassin's Creed series is one of the best examples of using a mouse and keyboard for an action game I've seen recently but even then it can be annoying and a gamepad is a much better option.

just_dont_do_it

07-14-2012, 08:31 AM

Racing sims are horrible on a keyboard.
Nope. They are "worse than analog", but not "horrible". Some racing sims are even "very slightly worse than analog", especially if you factor out all the baseless boasting by controller-lovers. All the NFS (not a hardcore racing sim, I know) series from the times immemorial make practically no difference between a gentle "D-slight pause-D-slight pause-D" sequence and an analog stick half-pressed to the right -- because of the game compensating for it.

As for the rest of your argument: mouse in KB+M can cover those "sensitive" cases VERY well, much better than an analog stick. There's a reason that you can't play professionally in UT using controller, you'll just embarrass yourself and your team.

So, all that's needed is one brave soul to throw away the popular notion that "mouse must be used only for mouselook period" (good for FPS/Shooters, but in TPSes and non-shooters it could easily have extra functions), and suddenly, there's another HUGE layer of control complexity that can be easily implemented for KB+M. Just look at that funny "Die by the sword" game (oh, those great times when people were not afraid of doing something non-standard).

QuaziPance

07-14-2012, 08:42 AM

I bought the 360 version on release and played probably a solid 100+ hours. I will probably pre-order this one just because I prefer my PC over my 360 (my 360 is an original model and is very loud/locks up sometimes).

One thing I will say though, is that this better have pretty spot-on controller support. I can't imagine playing this with keyboard and mouse and it working out (although maybe a ranged character would be easier to play if they add some good support for mouse-keyboard aiming).

TLDR; I love this game. It is the best game I've played on this generation of consoles. I will be very pleased to add it to my steam collection.

Ardbug

07-14-2012, 08:44 AM

It has to do with the type of game. Action games with more complex fighting systems are not really suited to a keyboard and mouse. A game like Skyrim, for example, works well when done right because quite frankly it's combat system is incredibly shallow. There is very little depth to it. In the case of something like Dark Souls or even a game like Darksiders or DMC4 there is just something about a controller that makes it feel more suited and generally better. It's just one of those things, not every game is going to be suited to every control method.

Racing sims are definitely best played with a wheel, I just picked up project cars for that reason, I love hard racing sims that rely on the precise input of a wheel, even a controller would do poorly in that game, same goes for LFS.

Fighting games and twin stick shooters are best done on fighting sticks and gamepads respectively, Kb+M is NOT a good option for those type of games.
But I see absolutely no reason why Dark Souls shouldn't do very well on Kb+M, since it sorta handles like assassins creed, which was good on Kb+M, the only gamepad specific things about it as I see it is selecting different items in each inventory category on the fly, but that could be easily done with the number keys, while keys like Q, E, F and G was used to activate the inventory items.
I still dont understand why FS would say Kb+M isn't a good choice for DS.

Derangel

07-14-2012, 09:53 AM

Nope. They are "worse than analog", but not "horrible". Some racing sims are even "very slightly worse than analog", especially if you factor out all the baseless boasting by controller-lovers. All the NFS (not a hardcore racing sim, I know) series from the times immemorial make practically no difference between a gentle "D-slight pause-D-slight pause-D" sequence and an analog stick half-pressed to the right -- because of the game compensating for it.

As for the rest of your argument: mouse in KB+M can cover those "sensitive" cases VERY well, much better than an analog stick. There's a reason that you can't play professionally in UT using controller, you'll just embarrass yourself and your team.

So, all that's needed is one brave soul to throw away the popular notion that "mouse must be used only for mouselook period" (good for FPS/Shooters, but in TPSes and non-shooters it could easily have extra functions), and suddenly, there's another HUGE layer of control complexity that can be easily implemented for KB+M. Just look at that funny "Die by the sword" game (oh, those great times when people were not afraid of doing something non-standard).

Alright let me put this out here: I'm the type of guy that says it's pointless to play a real racing sim unless you're using a wheel so for me keyboards suck for sims. Now for arcade races they're fine. I use my keyboard a lot on arcade racers like the NFS series, I'll switch to the controller for less pure arcade racers like Shift or Dirt.

UT is a shooter though, it's not really comparable. Maybe I'm completely wrong and it could work but so far there are no examples of it and quite frankly I'd rather have From focus on the technical aspects of the port. The technical side of things has always been From's weakness.

Heids24

07-14-2012, 01:46 PM

They never said it would be a weak port. They said it was challenging and they won't have time to fix the frame rate dips in a couple of the areas that are harder on the game engine.

Some people can read between the lines and corporate speak, and obviously others cannot.

Derangel

07-14-2012, 01:49 PM

Some people can read between the lines and corporate speak, and obviously others cannot.

Some people are way to ♥♥♥♥ing judgmental and obviously others understand that it's better to wait and see instead of jumping to conclusions.

AlanOC91

07-14-2012, 02:36 PM

Some people are way to ♥♥♥♥ing judgmental and obviously others understand that it's better to wait and see instead of jumping to conclusions.

This.
It makes me laugh when I see people writing paragraphs upon paragraphs about this port when its not even released.
Stop this silly back and forth bickering and just wait and see.

Inarborat

07-15-2012, 06:35 AM

Some people can read between the lines and corporate speak, and obviously others cannot.

Uh, not much corporate speak going on with this game. The devs have been brutally honest about their lack of experience with developing a PC title and the difficulties they've been having. Some of us appreciate that honesty in an industry so bereft of it.

All the extra content + a $40 price tag has me sold on this game because I've played many supposedly optimized for the PC platform titles that clearly weren't. I know what I'm getting into, some probably technical issues that will be far, far overshadowed by an incredible game.

Scorpio27

07-15-2012, 06:54 AM

To be fair, it's their first time with PC, and Bandai is rushing them. If it sells well, their next title might be same-day release with better support.

Ninja Blade was their first time with PC

Adde

07-15-2012, 06:58 AM

Ninja Blade was their first time with PC

I'm pretty sure that was outsourced.

Derangel

07-15-2012, 08:04 AM

I'm pretty sure that was outsourced.

Yeah. They outsourced it to ND Games and bitComposer. Amusingly they're still listed as the developers despite doing that.

Baresark

07-15-2012, 10:22 AM

This thread has gotten away from topic.

$40 is a very fair price for this game. It will only have been out for 10 months when it releases. It will match the price of the console at that point and it comes with the DLC included. Do I wish it was cheaper, of course I do. But it's not an unfair or unreasonable price. This subject is so dramatic.

Richard M Nixon

07-15-2012, 10:57 AM

analog motion cannot be translated into binary keyboard strokes without compromise.

DS was created for and extensively tested around dual analog sticks + buttons. Therefore, any kb/mouse scheme will involve compromised gameplay because they are not going create a new combat system from the ground up based on kb/m. period.

Will you be able to play it with kb/mouse? yes, just like racing games can be played without a wheel, or one can type with a gamepad. But the experiences are all less then optimal.

I think the defensiveness wrt to the pad v kb/m arguments come from peoples attachment to the input mechanism that they have spent the most time with. Looking at it objectively though, it is pretty easy to see that some games are meant for pads and others for kb/m. Horses for courses...

As far as the quality of the port goes, some people have unrealistic expectations. No AAA today takes full advantage of the PC platform. Even PC only games like Diablo III don't leverage the full PC potential as they have to make sure that the games will run only any pc made in the last 5-7 years in order to maximize sales.

The only logical thing to do is to wait a week or so after release, do some due diligence, and decide if the game is something you want to buy. Loving it or condemning it before release is just forum wank.

abort_user

07-16-2012, 05:28 PM

They never said it would be a weak port. They said it was challenging and they won't have time to fix the frame rate dips in a couple of the areas that are harder on the game engine.

that means they didnt optimize it which means its most likely going to be a weak port.

im still probably going to get it (after a price drop) but you gotta call a spade a spade.

Sterlin22

07-16-2012, 05:59 PM

I paid $60 for it on the Xbox 360 and have had zero regrets. Definitely worth every penny.

Teh_Barbarian

07-16-2012, 06:41 PM

I don't see anything wrong with this price tag.

nirvanasource

07-16-2012, 07:06 PM

AlanOC91

07-16-2012, 07:08 PM

It should be £20 ($31) maximum.

Anyone paying more than this price is just one of those who contributed to the initial end of PC gaming (2004'ish?).

If you let these console companies feed us this cheap crap, then they'll continue to do so.

Cheap crap? :confused:
I will gladly pay full price for this, the devs have been nothing but completely honest about how they are handling it, they have NO experience working on PC games and this will be their main test. Its expected to have faults.

Besides, they said as a WORST case scenario it will play 1:1 like the console version which is amazing for me as the console version was perfect in my eyes. Anything better (no matter how small) is a plus for me.

Also on a small note, not every dev left is Satan himself. Its sad to see what the likes of EA and Activision have done to people.

Sterlin22

07-16-2012, 07:55 PM

It sounds to me like this is more so a debate that games, as a whole, are overpriced and that this game is an example of this, not that this game in particular is overpriced compared to other games.

Because of this, I think this whole entire discussion should be taken to a COMPLETELY different forum, don't derail Dark Souls.

netnerd85

07-16-2012, 10:40 PM

It should be £20 ($31) maximum.

Anyone paying more than this price is just one of those who contributed to the initial end of PC gaming (2004'ish?).

If you let these console companies feed us this cheap crap, then they'll continue to do so.

No, it's people like you that won't pay money for games that is killing PC gaming. PC game piracy was everywhere back then. As with music etc.

Why spend 3 years developing a game, which costs any where from $2-200 million to make to have people just rip it off?

You don't make $50 million back selling 100,000 copies at $10 :rolleyes:

nirvanasource

07-16-2012, 11:05 PM

No, it's people like you that won't pay money for games that is killing PC gaming. PC game piracy was everywhere back then. As with music etc.

Why spend 3 years developing a game, which costs any where from $2-200 million to make to have people just rip it off?

You don't make $50 million back selling 100,000 copies at $10 :rolleyes:
Some of you just need to join us in the present. You still have the same mindset as this big publishers who are behind the times.

The reason piracy exists is because people can't/won't pay the higher prices.

At $10 they might sell 10x more copies than at $30.

10 copies @ $10 = $100
1 copy @ £30 = $30

Even at 5x they'd make more money. Cheaper prices are the future, as is F2P.

Rovio are worth more than some of the biggest publishers.

I actually make a living from a game sold at £5.99.

Derangel

07-16-2012, 11:14 PM

Some of you just need to join us in the present.

The reason piracy exists is because people can't/won't pay the higher prices.

At $10 they might sell 10x more copies than at $30.

10 copies @ $10 = $100
1 copy @ £30 = $30

Even at 5x they'd make more money. Cheaper prices are the future, as is F2P.

Rovio are worth more than some of the biggest publishers.

Bullcrap. Piracy exists for many reasons. You are a complete fool if you actually believe there is only one reason. Most pirates will pirate anything no matter what the price is because they can get it for free.

At $10 they MIGHT sell more or most likely they won't sell anywhere near enough to make back the development cost and make a profit. People would still ♥♥♥♥♥ and moan that games were too expensive and use that as an "excuse" to pirate. That said I agree that the $60 price point is bad. It is likely part of the reason game sale have been falling continuously the last few years. Dropping prices so drastically across the board is insane and stupid, but going back to games being $40-50 on average for big retail games sounds like a much better idea.

netnerd85

07-16-2012, 11:20 PM

Cheaper prices are the future, as is F2P.

I actually make a living from a game sold at £5.99.
F2P is going to crash hard and it's going to burn brighter than the Hindenburg. Much like that 3D stuff. Fads are unsustainable.

Cheap prices are hurting the industry. How many of the cheap games are people actually going to play and finish from this Steam sale? Cheap prices maybe good for sales, but greed doesn't make a good game. There is cheap and then there is reasonable. $40 for a game is VERY reasonable. $89.99 is not, looking at you Activision, EA and big Beth.

If you focus on getting as many sales as possible then you make generic games. There is nothing worse than a generic game. Make games for a market and sell to that market at a reasonable price.

Quantity vs Quality. You can smell F2P a mile away.

And do tell, which game do you make money from my dear?

nirvanasource

07-16-2012, 11:31 PM

F2P is going to crash hard and it's going to burn brighter than the Hindenburg. Much like that 3D stuff. Fads are unsustainable.

Cheap prices are hurting the industry. How many of the cheap games are people actually going to play and finish from this Steam sale? Cheap prices maybe good for sales, but greed doesn't make a good game. There is cheap and then there is reasonable. $40 for a game is VERY reasonable. $89.99 is not, looking at you Activision, EA and big Beth.

If you focus on getting as many sales as possible then you make generic games. There is nothing worse than a generic game. Make games for a market and sell to that market at a reasonable price.
The problem is that you're suggesting there is only one type of F2P. There will be more of a mix in the future, even if it ends up more like Shareware. It won't be all be dodgy MMO's from Korea.

I don't think Minecraft would've sold as well if you couldn't have played the free version before hand. F2P will evolve to be a mix of shareware/microtransactions. Look at Ouya - it's forcing every game to be free to download with at least a section of it playable for free. F2P is the future.

If Mario 64 was to be released today on PC, it should be free to play, but with small fees to open each door.

I just bought Shogun 2, Saints Row 3 and Tropico 4. If they were priced higher they wouldn't have got my cash.

Then we could argue that you guys should pay $60, and I should only pay $20. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination

clstirens

07-17-2012, 03:48 AM

I was pleasantly surprised to see it's going to be $40 and not $60. Some of you guys need to get a grip about what's a reasonable price.

Delicieuxz

07-17-2012, 04:51 AM

CoDs are ports yet they cost $60. Same with Skyrim. Go figure. Wanting cheaper makes you a cheap ♥♥♥ cheapo Mc cheap-cheap cheaper.

Le0

07-17-2012, 12:54 PM

I think the defensiveness wrt to the pad v kb/m arguments come from peoples attachment to the input mechanism that they have spent the most time with. Looking at it objectively though, it is pretty easy to see that some games are meant for pads and others for kb/m. Horses for courses...

Nope. I'm a big fan of dmc series and pretty good with a pad.
But both assassin's creed and batman series simply play better and allow for more control with kb/m.
Especially batman, where you can have every single gadget bound to a separate key. You don't have to switch them with a d-pad, you just press 1 button and it activates immediately. And you can control the camera while doing combos.

Controller is great for slashers with a fixed camera, like dmc or god of war because your right thumb doesn't have to two-time between face buttons and a stick (and a d-pad, in my case).
Which Dark souls isn't.

Teh_Barbarian

07-17-2012, 01:18 PM

Nope. I'm a big fan of dmc series and pretty good with a pad.
But both assassin's creed and batman series simply play better and allow for more control with kb/m.
Especially batman, where you can have every single gadget bound to a separate key. You don't have to switch them with a d-pad, you just press 1 button and it activates immediately. And you can control the camera while doing combos.

Controller is great for slashers with a fixed camera, like dmc or god of war because your right thumb doesn't have to two-time between face buttons and a stick (and a d-pad, in my case).
Which Dark souls isn't.

This is a great example of opinion.

I personally liked both Batman games better on my gamepad, and I'm not a big fan of assassin's creed, (my wife is) and I also prefer those on gamepads. And having played Demon's Souls I can see how Gamepad would work better for Dark Souls than KB/M but hey, some people prefer some things to others.

To me KB/M is better for PC specific type of games, such as RTSs and FPS the such. but this game will probably be more enjoyable with a gamepad.

abort_user

07-17-2012, 01:34 PM

CoDs are ports yet they cost $60. Same with Skyrim. Go figure. Wanting cheaper makes you a cheap ♥♥♥ cheapo Mc cheap-cheap cheaper.

well first off most PC games retail for $50 because PC doesnt have licensing fees. $60 prices are nothing but a cash grab and informed consumers should know better than to pay them.

second off, this is a relatively old game. Skyrim and CoD were released at around the same time as their console counterparts. its really not fair to consumers to have a price disparity between systems by charging more for an older game when its released on a new system. the consumer (rightfully) should go with the cheaper option which would be to avoid the PC version.

you can very easily find Dark Souls on consoles for around $20 or less. IIRC the DLC which is included with the PC version is being sold for $15 (which $15 is pretty steep for DLC btw). that puts the game $5 cheaper on consoles and they pay the licensing fee that PC doesnt. $40 is NOT a great price. sure it could be worse but its far from reasonable.

Inarborat

07-18-2012, 12:56 AM

$40 is reasonable and if you don't like it, don't buy it and stop arguing about it. The game is less than a year old so you need to throw out the Alan Wake comparison completely, not to mention Remedy and the other studio that worked on the PC version have FAR more experience with PC games than From Software, who have none. I don't care about saving $5 when I can get a much better resolution, framerate (which is frequently abysmal in the console version), and quicker loading times. $40 for a content packed game is worth it no matter how "old" it is. It's a miracle this game is even getting a PC release.

abort_user

07-18-2012, 07:43 AM

not to mention Remedy and the other studio that worked on the PC version have FAR more experience with PC games than From Software, who have none.

by your logic, i should pay more for a worse port? hey my cars needs fixing. ill go to the mechanic with no experience because he costs more. wait, that makes no sense either way you look at it.

Baresark

07-18-2012, 08:48 AM

by your logic, i should pay more for a worse port? hey my cars needs fixing. ill go to the mechanic with no experience because he costs more. wait, that makes no sense either way you look at it.

You don't know anything about this port as no one has played it. But it's not going to be as good a port as Alan Wake, this we do know. Alan Wake was almost 2 years old when it came out on the PC. It's a much much much much different game and much much much shorter game. This game is way newer than Alan Wake. I'm not saying that either game is bad, but comparing them is like comparing Apples and bricks. They are two completely different beasts.

When you pay for a game, you are paying for what fair market value is determined to be. In the case of a new release title, the company determines fair market value. If it's too much for you, the price will depreciate over time and you should wait to buy it. But comparing it to another game doesn't make sense because pricing is not determined by the quality of other games development cycle.

abort_user

07-18-2012, 09:46 AM

You don't know anything about this port as no one has played it. But it's not going to be as good a port as Alan Wake, this we do know. Alan Wake was almost 2 years old when it came out on the PC. It's a much much much much different game and much much much shorter game. This game is way newer than Alan Wake. I'm not saying that either game is bad, but comparing them is like comparing Apples and bricks. They are two completely different beasts.

are you trolling/stalking me? ive answered your claim that we know nothing about this port (which isnt even true) in multiple topics and once directly to you. i will repeat again:

it looks to be a subpar port but there isnt much known. this can mean at best it will play a little better than on consoles with few extra options for PC users. at worst it means the game will have lots of issues, run poorly, and have no extra options for PC users. no one knows right now. im leaning towards it being better than worse, id hold off on preordering just in case... From Software has no experience with PC ports.... if you liked it on PS3, id wait and see how it runs then get it.

---

also when did i mention Alan Wake? whats with people on the internet and straw men? last i checked fallacies only reflect poorly on the person using them.

Baresark

07-18-2012, 09:01 PM

are you trolling/stalking me? ive answered your claim that we know nothing about this port (which isnt even true) in multiple topics and once directly to you. i will repeat again:

it looks to be a subpar port but there isnt much known. this can mean at best it will play a little better than on consoles with few extra options for PC users. at worst it means the game will have lots of issues, run poorly, and have no extra options for PC users. no one knows right now. im leaning towards it being better than worse, id hold off on preordering just in case... From Software has no experience with PC ports.... if you liked it on PS3, id wait and see how it runs then get it.

---

also when did i mention Alan Wake? whats with people on the internet and straw men? last i checked fallacies only reflect poorly on the person using them.

I completely owe you an apology. I read a bunch of comments and then when I quoted you by accident, I rebutted all of them as if you said them. That is my bad. I'll be more careful in the future.

Someone had mentioned Alan Wake and how it looks to be a much better port but was $10 cheaper. My point was the comparison isn't fitting. But once again, that wasn't you.