To all the "do not buy" threads

[maddo03]

From what I've seen on here so far, you're all wrong.
The reasons you shouldn't buy the game are as follows:

1 - GFWL
Why? It's not a great system, most importantly however, it has region restrictions. Meaning certain country's simply aren't allowed to buy the game. Therefore we should try to buy as few games with GFWL as possible, until it dies out.

2 - Minimal mouse and keyboard support
It's already been said they aren't going to support mouse and keyboard and that you should play with a controller. For a PC game, this is very stupid.

If you decide not to buy the game for these reasons, you should tell FromSoftware & NAMCO Bandai why you're not buying it. Then if they release the next version on PC, they'll actually make it a PC game.

[Solona]

2 - Minimal mouse and keyboard support
It's already been said they aren't going to support mouse and keyboard and that you should play with a controller. For a PC game, this is very stupid.

I would think "Bad port" is a more fitting choice.

[Ardbug]

Yep those are the only 2 reservations I have about this game as well, Dark Souls look to be a fantastic game gameplay wise, so I am willing to excuse anything graphics related.
The most important point for me is keyboard+mouse control, if this is really done as badly as the Devs are hinting at, then I will skip the game.

If the controls on Kb+M are good then I will wait for a sale because of GFWL, I cannot bring myself to pay full price for a game using that abomination.

[Derangel]

Yep those are the only 2 reservations I have about this game as well, Dark Souls look to be a fantastic game gameplay wise, so I am willing to excuse anything graphics related.
The most important point for me is keyboard+mouse control, if this is really done as badly as the Devs are hinting at, then I will skip the game.

If the controls on Kb+M are good then I will wait for a sale because of GFWL, I cannot bring myself to pay full price for a game using that abomination.

Wouldn't $50-60 be considered "full price" for a game these days while $40 is considered a bargain price?

[Ardbug]

Wouldn't $50-60 be considered "full price" for a game these days while $40 is considered a bargain price?

Well full price is whatever they price it at at launch, so for me full price is 40$ :)

[KalROFL]

I think he means full-price of its starting price point. It's sort of silly to consider it a bargain price when it's not being discounted.

edit: ninja'd

[Ardbug]

edit: ninja'd

By 5 seconds :)

[MutantMonkey]

2 - Minimal mouse and keyboard support
It's already been said they aren't going to support mouse and keyboard and that you should play with a controller. For a PC game, this is very stupid.

People using this as a reason not to buy have short memories. Controllers on PC are far from new. Back in the early, mid and late 90's I used controllers quite a bit on racing, flying and 3rd person games, and this was long before "It's a port" became a popular phrase.

The simple fact is some games play better with a controller, particularly ones that do not require fine point precision.

[v8ftmfw]

wait ! no support mouse and keyboard ? ♥♥♥♥ i gotta find me a pc game controller , any recomment ?

[KalROFL]

Yes, but the overwhelming majority of PC games function perfectly well without requiring an additional controller. People don't want to use proprietary hardware for every game that is released.

Some games function better with a controller (frequently action games and platformers, like Bastion and Super Meat Boy). But it's unacceptable for a game to feel neutered without a controller.

[TheTurnipKing]

People using this as a reason not to buy have short memories. Controllers on PC are far from new. Back in the early, mid and late 90's I used controllers quite a bit on racing, flying and 3rd person games, and this was long before "It's a port" became a popular phrase.

The simple fact is some games play better with a controller, particularly ones that do not require fine point precision.
That decision is supposed to left to the player, not imposed upon the customer.

[TheTurnipKing]

wait ! no support mouse and keyboard ? ♥♥♥♥ i gotta find me a pc game controller , any recomment ?

X360 controller for Windows (360 controller with USB plug) is the defacto standard in most versions of Windows these days.

[Adde]

It's already been said they aren't going to support mouse and keyboard

I hope you're not spreading misinformation on purpose. Of course they are supporting the mouse and keyboard, all they said was that the game would probably play better on a controller.

[KalROFL]

We'll have to wait and see what that means exactly. However, given the versatility of a keyboard and mouse, I don't think it would be terribly hard to translate the controls adequately, and perhaps even better. The question is whether From is willing to do this through adequate playtesting. The best thing they can do is make it possible for the player to change the control scheme as he sees fit.

[Adde]

We'll have to wait and see what that means exactly. However, given the versatility of a keyboard and mouse, I don't think it would be terribly hard to translate the controls adequately, and perhaps even better. The question is whether From is willing to do this through adequate playtesting. The best thing they can do is make it possible for the player to change the control scheme as he sees fit.

Well if they fail to do it, maybe the modding community can help somehow. In fact, I hope the modding community can figure out how to do more than that.

[KalROFL]

Sadly, they are not going to develop the game to be easily moddable. This doesn't mean that it won't be, just that there's no guarantee that we will be able to mod the game to play the way we want.

My hope is that they mod the game to make a more traditional co-op mode. I would absolutely love to just run through the entire game with a friend without being forced to resummon him after each fight and each death.

[PeeWee1477]

Did you guys complain about light gun games being better only if you bought a light gun? Having an analog stick for some games just makes sense. Considering that there's a stealth mechanic in this game, and that you can control the stealth using the analog stick, it makes sense to buy a controller.

Same deal for the Assassin's Creed games on the PC. If you played that with a k+m, you probably cheated yourself out of quite a bit of movement precision. Since this game is not an FPS, and it contains a lock-on mechanic, I hardly see WHY anyone would be upset about the lack of extra work being spent trying to perfect k+m controls.

[Adde]

I hardly see WHY anyone would be upset about the lack of extra work being spent trying to perfect k+m controls.

Really? You can't think of even one reason? Some of us don't have controllers to use, and I'm not about to drop money on one. If you develop a game for the PC, you better be damn sure that a PC gamer is going to expect k+m controls that are actually usable.

[KalROFL]

That analogy just doesn't apply here. It's fine if a game controls better with an auxiliary controller, but if the game fundamentally controls poorly with the standard controller, that's a problem. Imagine if Dark Souls needed a proprietary controller to play smoothly on the PS3!

The main issue, really, is that it should not be difficult for the game to play reasonably well with a keyboard and mouse. It's not a lightgun game, and the analog stick argument just doesn't account for the fact that the game plays in such a way that it would be reasonable to port it to be fully-functional (or, at least, mostly-functional) on a keyboard and mouse.

Also, no one cares about lightgun games. =P

[Ardbug]

Having an analog stick for some games just makes sense. Considering that there's a stealth mechanic in this game, and that you can control the stealth using the analog stick, it makes sense to buy a controller.
Please explain why it makes sense, I have asked a number of times on this forum when people have made that claim, but so far no one have given me a good answer.
And Stealth games are fine on the PC, why would I need a controller to walk instead of running, I have done that in many other PC games already, the thief series spring to mind ...

Same deal for the Assassin's Creed games on the PC. If you played that with a k+m, you probably cheated yourself out of quite a bit of movement precision. Since this game is not an FPS, and it contains a lock-on mechanic, I hardly see WHY anyone would be upset about the lack of extra work being spent trying to perfect k+m controls.
Assassins creed handled quite well with kb+m, I could do all the special attacks, climb like a winner and generally be highly agile with kb+m, I did not miss a controller at any point in that game.

[KalROFL]

Eh, I tried Revelations on the PC, after playing the other titles on the PS3 and Xbox 360, and I thought it handled much better with a controller. It wasn't bad with the keyboard and mouse, but when I switched to my PS3 controller, it felt much better.

[Solona]

I can't imagine how Dark Souls will play with a mouse+keyboard, I may be bias towards this after playing so long on a PS3 controller, but just thinking about it earlier while playing it, it will be very awkward.

[PeeWee1477]

Well, I think that a lot of people are making assumptions about how well the k+m controls are going to work. They're not saying that they won't be functional; they're just stating that they haven't placed any extra work into them. We don't know if it's going to control poorly with the k+m config, unless someone knows something that I don't.

So to the people saying that it won't be usable, why exactly are you saying that?

[KalROFL]

I can't imagine how Dark Souls will play with a mouse+keyboard, I may be bias towards this after playing so long on a PS3 controller, but just thinking about it earlier while playing it, it will be very awkward.

It will be easier to turn and attack, for one. Left click for weak hit, right click for strong hit. On the keyboard, left shift is block, C is sprint. Something like that would work fine. It would also be easier to rotate the camera while sprinting.

As I said earlier, as long as they give us the ability to adjust the controls as we see fit, I don't foresee a big problem. I just hate when developers create one control scheme and don't allow us to change it.

[woolerland]

The problem is that pc gamers told the company to port it to PC as they'll buy it however majority of people didn't think it through.

It'll have to port as it was made for consoles first obviously & the fact that it'll be a stupid idea investing tons of money into a experimental project where the only reason for doing so is because the PC gamers have requested it.

Yet people expect massive Changes....


I will not be preordering as 1) i didn't request/care about this game before the PC build & 2) i'm too wary of console ports these days as some have been freakin terrible.

[timeformime]

Yes, but the overwhelming majority of PC games function perfectly well without requiring an additional controller. People don't want to use proprietary hardware for every game that is released.

Some games function better with a controller (frequently action games and platformers, like Bastion and Super Meat Boy). But it's unacceptable for a game to feel neutered without a controller.


An awful lot of games fall under action or third-person-something and play a lot more comfortably sitting back with one controller nestled between your hands, at least for those who are open to using one with their computer. It's also much more intuitive to me to handle one central thing on the screen with one central controller between my hands, which is a big reason that I'm worried about From pulling of Dark Souls' keyboard/mouse controls well. The game's design and combat was built around the PS3 controller, and it controlled like a dream.

And no one should close themselves off to another mode of input if it improves the gameplay on so many games they probably already have. If you really prefer K+M or don't want to spend the $32 to buy a pad on Amazon that's understandable, but I'm sure there are plenty of people who have never plugged an xbox controller into their computer just because so many others have posted saying it's an inferior mode of input. Ergonomically, that's just not true, and it really depends on the genre.

[Solona]

It will be easier to turn and attack, for one. Left click for weak hit, right click for strong hit. On the keyboard, left shift is block, C is sprint. Something like that would work fine. It would also be easier to rotate the camera while sprinting.

As I said earlier, as long as they give us the ability to adjust the controls as we see fit, I don't foresee a big problem. I just hate when developers create one control scheme and don't allow us to change it.

I don't know if you have played Dark Souls before but movement has never really been an issue for a controller, I've never felt that I turned too slowly or anything as movement is very precise in this game so I don't think mouse+keyboard will have any advantage over a controller in this scenario.

[Rumina]

Maybe I'll try to get my GFWL account working yet again to play this. I had no success the last several times when I had bought Bulletstorm. I really wish it had Steamworks and not GFWL. I've had so many problems with it.

My interest in this game is pretty high though.

[KalROFL]

I don't know if you have played Dark Souls before but movement has never really been an issue for a controller, I've never felt that I turned too slowly or anything as movement is very precise in this game so I don't think mouse+keyboard will have any advantage over a controller in this scenario.

If you've ever tried sprinting and turning, you'd know that movement can be an issue in Dark Souls. It's a minor issue, I guess.


An awful lot of games fall under action or third-person-something and play a lot more comfortably sitting back with one controller nestled between your hands, at least for those who are open to using one with their computer. It's also much more intuitive to me to handle one central thing on the screen with one central controller between my hands, which is a big reason that I'm worried about From pulling of Dark Souls' keyboard/mouse controls well. The game's design and combat was built around the PS3 controller, and it controlled like a dream.

And no one should close themselves off to another mode of input if it improves the gameplay on so many games they probably already have. If you really prefer K+M or don't want to spend the $32 to buy a pad on Amazon that's understandable, but I'm sure there are plenty of people who have never plugged an xbox controller into their computer just because so many others have posted saying it's an inferior mode of input. Ergonomically, that's just not true, and it really depends on the genre.

No one is asking to be prevented from using controllers. We just want a game that functions with the default control scheme. We don't want to be forced to shell out money each time a developer decides his PC title would be better off with a proprietary controller. This is why every PS3 title is expected to work with a PS3 controller. Why would it be any different for a PC title?

[Solona]

If you've ever tried sprinting and turning, you'd know that movement can be an issue in Dark Souls. It's a minor issue, I guess.


Yeah that's true, I guess we'll find out in a month, I really hope it does play well on a mouse+keyboard for the majority of people without controllers, it would suck to find out its ♥♥♥ and have to fork out.

[Ganimoth]

wait ! no support mouse and keyboard ? ♥♥♥♥ i gotta find me a pc game controller , any recomment ?

As someone said - Xbox 360 controller. Or if you prefer more "Playstationish" layout, you cant go wrong with Logitech Rumble Gamepad F510 which is also 100% compatible with xbox controller

[Alienware Gamer]

From what I've seen on here so far, you're all wrong.
The reasons you shouldn't buy the game are as follows:

1 - GFWL
Why? It's not a great system, most importantly however, it has region restrictions. Meaning certain country's simply aren't allowed to buy the game. Therefore we should try to buy as few games with GFWL as possible, until it dies out.

GFWL region restrictions mean nothing as unlike Steam no GEO IP check other digital stores sell GFWL games to anyone only Steam restrict the countries!

2 - Minimal mouse and keyboard support
It's already been said they aren't going to support mouse and keyboard and that you should play with a controller. For a PC game, this is very stupid.

Its built around a gamepad!


If you decide not to buy the game for these reasons, you should tell FromSoftware & NAMCO Bandai why you're not buying it. Then if they release the next version on PC, they'll actually make it a PC game. You think it will matter all that will happen is Namco will avoid PC in future they have ignored 3 times petitions for Steamworks some people should take that as a sign they are doing their own thing boycotting the game will just mean less chance of Namco PC support it will not encourage them to spend/waste more money on other ports will it ;)

[Ardbug]

GFWL region restrictions mean nothing as unlike Steam no GEO IP check other digital stores sell GFWL games to anyone only Steam restrict the countries!
If you run into any problems with GFWL, you will not be able to call on support for help if you live in an unsupported country, I suspect that is also why Steam wont sell GFWL games to non supported countries, because there is zero support.

Its built around a gamepad!
Offcause it is, what other choice do they have on a console ?? that does not automatically mean that they should ignore making good kb+m controls for the PC, or that a gamepad is the only or best option.


5char.

[Shiroshibal]

As for bad port:

It can't be worse than the console version (at least I hope/assume) and that is apparently just too bad for PC gamers out there with their mega-rigs not being used to the max - it runs just fine on consoles, except for 2-3 places where everytime FPS drops occur, which aren't anything to worry about though. I haven't had a single crash, a single story/quest-related bug in over 180 hrs gameplay.

As for GFWL:

Only own two games using it as of right now and I must say if it effs up multiplayer like it does with Gotham City Impostors, it might be a problem.. Especially when they incorporate new matchmaking systems, if those don't work I can fully understand it's a huge deal-breaker, even if the game is 80% singleplayer.

Edit: Gamepad vs. M+K, I'd say absolutely no chance to play this with M+K... You have the four trigger (LT/RT) and bumpers (LB/RB) used as attacks/blocks, only two mouse buttons - maybe you could do Shift+Mouse Button as the heavy RT attack, but that would be really clunky.
And: there is really no need for the precision of the mouse, first of all because of the lock-on mechanic and second because the game mostly plays horizontally, there is never any kind of threat coming from up above where you have to f.e. aim your shield at - the only thing that is a slight problem with controls is archery, which would make good use of mouse controls, but it's not that big a deal - this game (esp. PvP) is mostly Melee.

[Teh_Barbarian]

"I call myself a gamer cause I bought a 500 dollar computer/video card to play GAMES, but I am too cheap to buy a GAMEpad for my GAMES"

-Logic

[Omario27]

I hate lugging around camera views with the mouse on bad console ports - I just hate it. It's not a deal breaker for me though. I also hate GFWL - I don't need it,I don't want it, it's so annoying and gets in the way sometimes - but for me even GFWL isn't a deal breaker.

Truthfully GFWL is an absolute nuisance, but it can be ignored.

I think keyboard controls won't be too disheartening, but the mouse support will likely suck. I've always avoided controllers for PC games, but if keyboard/mouse aren't satisfactory then I will get a controller for the game... It's not a big deal really, besides I have other controller enabled games so it'll be a good investment.

Releasing a game on PC with bad keyboard/mouse controls is a bit silly, but it's entirely understandable for a console port IMHO, specially a console port form Devs that from my knowledge haven't developed a PC game before (FromSoftware, please correct me if i'm wrong)..

[KalROFL]

Also, a PS3 controller works well with the PC. You might need to tweak it a bit with Motionjoy, but you can even get it to work wirelessly by purchasing a cheap bluetooth dongle.

Shiroshibal, sometimes ports are so bad that they run poorly even on high-end hardware. This was an issue with GTA IV, for example. Hopefully, this isn't the case with Dark Souls, but that is my biggest concern: my PC is able to max out most titles without any problem. Dark Souls, being able to run on a PS3 that is hugely overshadowed by my PC, should not be a problem.

Teh_Barbarian, that argument is ridiculous. Suppose a PS3 title were released that required a proprietary controller? Would

I call myself a gamer cause I bought a $300 console, but am too cheap to buy a GAMEpad for my GAMES

be a valid argument? Of course not. Unless given extremely good reason, we expect our titles to work with the default controller. In the case of a PC, this is the keyboard and mouse.

[v8ftmfw]

any one got link to cheap control ?

[Teh_Barbarian]

be a valid argument? Of course not. Unless given extremely good reason, we expect our titles to work with the default controller. In the case of a PC, this is the keyboard and mouse.

Well, I have personally been a PC gamer for 20 years. I also own a PS3 for some of the awesome exclusives (See Demon's Souls). And I use my KB+M on games built around that scheme. The Souls games were not built around KB+M and people need to accept that. I personally own a Xbox360 pad because I don't like to cripple my experience playing games not built for KB+M with a KB+M.

I wish people would understand the game was DESIGNED with a gamepad in mind since conception. it's not just a keymapping issue here guys, the game mechanics are built around a gamepad.

We should be so thankful, that a game that was never meant to be on PC made its way here due to a petition. Has anyone ever heard of something like this happening before? We asked for this game knowing it would NOT be a KB+M friendly game, so seriously, this is just something silly to complain about IMO.

So if you call yourself a gamer, do yourself a favor, and pay 15-30 bucks for a gamepad, please, do yourself that favor and at least you have the option for a lot of games, and don't have to suffer with badly ported controls.

BTW, stop making such a big noise about GFWL. I wonder how many of you boycotted games because they required Windows Vista.

Skipping something so awesome due to something so minuscule is once again just hurting yourself more than the developers.

[KalROFL]

Missing the point/10.

[Adde]

"I call myself a gamer cause I bought a 500 dollar computer/video card to play GAMES, but I am too cheap to buy a GAMEpad for my GAMES"

-Logic

Logic is what this post lacks.

[Teh_Barbarian]

Logic is what this post lacks.

Yes, in case you didn't understand, it was sarcasm.

[Adde]

Yes, in case you didn't understand, it was sarcasm.

Mine was too.

[PeeWee1477]

Please explain why it makes sense, I have asked a number of times on this forum when people have made that claim, but so far no one have given me a good answer.
And Stealth games are fine on the PC, why would I need a controller to walk instead of running, I have done that in many other PC games already, the thief series spring to mind ...


Assassins creed handled quite well with kb+m, I could do all the special attacks, climb like a winner and generally be highly agile with kb+m, I did not miss a controller at any point in that game.

I dunno what there is to explain. You press down a little on the stick, you move slowly. You press more, you move faster. You press down more, you move a little faster still.

Yes, games like Thief have had sneak mechanics. Of course it's easy to have a run and a sneak button. But you can't recreate all of the middle ground that exists between sneak/walk/run unless you have buttons also for faster sneak, slow walk, jog, etc etc.

But again, no one actually responded to my post about how people have turned the statement that there won't be extra work done for k+m support into: "K+m will be total crap with this game." It may work just fine. I'm not sure why the assumption is being made that the standard k+m support is going to cause your character to walk off every cliff in sight.

[GamerSam]

I'm a PC exclusive gamer these days, but I have played both Demon's Souls and Dark Souls on PS3.

My honest opinion is that, there is no kind of keyboard & mouse scheme that would work better for these games than a controller. Sorry, but some games just play better with a controller.

Fighting games with an arcade stick, Racing games with a wheel... And I can say for a certain that Dark Souls was designed for a controller. It's a game that was designed exclusively for consoles for crying out loud. Stop the nonsense.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm not saying that the game would not be good enough with a K&M. But I believe From Software are right in recommending to play the game with a controller.

[KalROFL]

Lots of games make that suggestion without a problem. No one complains about Super Meat Boy suggesting the use of a gamepad. Again, the issue we have is if the keyboard and mouse support is subpar to the point where the game is fundamentally unplayable with a keyboard and mouse. With some control schemes, it's understandable, but not really with Dark Souls, in my opinion.

[jacobvandy]

I'm a PC exclusive gamer these days, but I have played both Demon's Souls and Dark Souls on PS3.

My honest opinion is that, there is no kind of keyboard & mouse scheme that would work better for these games than a controller. Sorry, but some games just play better with a controller.

Fighting games with an arcade stick, Racing games with a wheel... And I can say for a certain that Dark Souls was designed for a controller. It's a game that was designed exclusively for consoles for crying out loud. Stop the nonsense.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm not saying that the game would not be good enough with a K&M. But I believe From Software are right in recommending to play the game with a controller.

Agreed. I played both Souls titles on PS3, and while I'm really looking forward to higher resolution graphics and better performance on PC (not to mention new content!), I feel that this game would not work very well at all using KBM controls no matter how they tweaked and configured it.

Just get a dang Xbox 360 controller... They're $20 for the wired version and will serve you well for tons of games on PC including racers, platformers, fighters, and other third-person non-shooters. There's no need to be petty and refuse to use a controller, the strength of PC gaming is its versatility. You can have the best of both worlds!

[Slayer2.0]

I'm pretty sure they said it will have PC control support but you would get "a better experience" from using a controller, I recall someone saying that

[Ickorus]

I'm still buying it.

Disposable income, ho!