Net-Code-FIX for COMPETITIVE gaming!!!

[disruptor]

Content:
1) Introduction
2) Test environment
3) The tests
3.1) cl_interpolate 0/1
3.2) cl_interpolate & cl_lagcompensation
3.3) cl_interpolate & cl_interp
4) Conclusion


1) Introduction:
Hello. My name is Christoph ‚disruptor’ Dölger. I’m a German professional cyber-athlete and I’m playing for the international known Clan ‚n!faculty’ (www.faculty.de). I’m playing Counter-Strike since November 1999 (Beta 4) and Counter-Strike:Source since February 2005. I’m just waiting for a net-code-fix by valve, too long. I posted this thread, because I want Valve to recognize, that many Gamers are dissatisfied with the current situation. This thread is not mentioned to show how the net-code work or how the net-code should work. The point is that Valve has to recognize the problem with the net-code and to fix it! This thread is for all the cyber-athletes that see CS:S as a sport and matching each other on tournaments and leagues.
The game is because of the current net-code-bugs NOT competitive!

2) Test environment:
I accomplished my tests on two “high-end”-Computers and one dedicated LAN-Server. The Computers reached on every single test 100fps. The dedicated LAN-Server was located in my personal home-network and provided a constant 100-tickrate. The general net-settings of the clients were: rate 25000, cl_cmdrate 101 and cl_updaterate 101. These Values are forced on LANs and events. I accomplished my tests on LAN because of the low-latency and the quick Client-Server-Communication. However the results of the tests are transferable to the internet and (nearly) identical! But on LAN you still have the best premises.

3) The tests:
3.1) cl_interpolate 0/1:
First of all you should watch the following video several times:
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_vid_interpolate1-0.wmv

On that video you can recognize, that at “cl_interpolate 1” the model that stands still, sees the moving model delayed. In this situation, as a waiting/camping player you have a reaction-disadvantage, because the moving model sees the standing model sooner and because of that the moving model can react faster than the camping player!
At “cl_interpolate 0” you are seeing the moving model at the same time as the moving model sees you! So there is neither a reaction advantage nor a reaction disadvantage at “cl_interpolate 0”!!
The next image makes that clear:
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_pic_interpolate1-0.jpg

Result:
You should assume, that “cl_interpolate 0” is the best setting, BUT there is a bug in the lagcompensation (see below).

3.2) cl_interpolate & cl_lagcompensation:
cl_interpolate 0 & cl_lagcompensation 1:
These settings are bad, because you have to shoot behind the model to hit it.
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_vid_ip0_lc1.wmv
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_pic_ip0_lc1.jpg

cl_interpolate 0 & cl_lagcompensation 0:
These settings are perfect! The hit-boxes are on the model and because of “cl_interpolate 0” nobody has a reaction-disadvantage! But you can ONLY use these settings on LAN (because of the low-latency), because the lag-compensation is disabled!
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_vid_ip0_lc0.wmv
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_pic_ip0_lc0.jpg

cl_interpolate 1 & cl_lagcompensation 1:
These settings are forced on LAN tournaments (unfortunately)… and on internet leagues. But they are also bad, because of the reaction-disadvantage by “cl_interpolate 1”!!!
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_vid_ip1_lc1.wmv
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_pic_ip1_lc1.jpg

cl_interpolate 1 & cl_lagcompensation 0:
These settings are just too bad, because you have to shoot in front of the model to hit it!
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_vid_ip1_lc0.wmv
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_pic_ip1_lc0.jpg

Result:
As you can see above, the best client-settings are clearly “cl_interpolate 0” AND “cl_lagcompensation 0”, BUT you can ONLY use these settings on LAN, because the lag-compensation is (client-sided) disabled! However this is no problem on LAN, because every player has got a ping under 15ms!
On the internet the players has got a ping from 25ms and higher. On that “high-ping”-gamers and the settings “cl_interpolate 0” AND “cl_lagcompensation 0”, you have to shoot in FRONT of the model so that it is not adaptable to the internet! And because of that, we all have to play on “cl_interpolate 1” AND “cl_lagcompensation 1” online! That’s just the lesser of two evils!

3.3) cl_interpolate & cl_interp:
If you take a look at the picture:
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_pic_interp.jpg
You should recognize that the “cl_interp”-Value doesn’t matter on “cl_interpolate 0”, because the lag-compensation is disabled!
The higher the “cl_interp”-Value is chosen at “cl_interpolate 1” the later you see the model!

Result:
The setting “cl_interp 0.01” is obviously the best.

4) Conclusion:
My conclusion is easy:
On LAN with a tickrate-100-server you have to configure the following client-settings: cl_interpolate 0, cl_lagcompensation 0, cl_interp 0.01 and the following server-setting: sv_unlag 0 (“0” = disables player lag-compensation).
Unfortunately, we all have to play with the lesser of two evils in the internet (that means: “cl_interpolate 1”, “cl_lagcompensation 1”)! And here Valve comes into play!

VALVE! PLEASE FINALLY FIX THE LAG-COMPENSATION!!!!!!!!!




***UPDATE1:
The following commands haven't got an effect on the interpolation bug!
cl_smooth 1/0
cl_smoothtime 0.1/1/0.9/0.35
cl_pred_optimize 2/0
cl_interp_all 0/1
cl_interp_npcs 0.0/1
cl_lagcomp_errorcheck 1/0
cl_cmdbackup 2/0/100/101

***UPDATE2:
The following video shows the same effect:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=g7AJ3lBFLOA

***UPDATE3:
I (20ms) made the following videos with a highpinger (50ms) on an internet-server:

With these settings (cl_interpolate 0, cl_interp 0.01, cl_lagcompensation 0) you have to shoot in FRONT of the Model.
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_vid_internet_ip0lc0.wmv

With these settings (cl_interpolate 0, cl_interp 0.01, cl_lagcompensation 1) you have to shoot in BEHIND of the Model.
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_vid_internet_ip0lc1.wmv

Result:
There is no good setup for "cl_interpolate 0" in the internet!


***UPDATE4:
This video clearly shows the bug I'm talking about:
www.zlam.dk/z0uless/interpolate1.wmv


I got a friend of mine to make a short and simple video: www.zlam.dk/z0uless/interpolate1.wmv

client settings:
cl_interpolate "1"
cl_interp "0.01"
fps_max "101"
rate "25000"
cl_cmdrate "101"
cl_updaterate "101"
cl_smooth "1"
cl_smoothtime "0.1"
cl_lagcompensation "1"

Server runs at tickrate 100 and clients got 19 and 14 ping (online). There is no questioning this bug. Everyone knows about it.

Edit: Notice the headshot happens when you barely see my knee. I bet I could shoot headshot even earlyer, but I'm just human afterall

***UPDATE5:
A new video that shows, that cl_interp 0.01 adds more delay than 10ms! Thanks to Hutz.
http://hutz.sixwinter.com/other/CSSInterpBug.wmv

[disruptor]

Inhalt:
1) Einführung
2) Testumgebung
3) Die Tests
3.1) cl_interpolate 0/1
3.2) cl_interpolate & cl_lagcompensation
3.3) cl_interpolate & cl_interp
4) Fazit


1) Einführung:
Hallo. Mein Name ist Christoph ‚disruptor’ Dölger. Ich bin ein deutscher professioneller E-Sportler und spiele für den international bekannten Clan ‚n!faculty’ (www.faculty.de). Ich spiele Counter-Strike seit November 1999 (Beta 4) und Counter-Strike:Source seit Februar 2005. Ich warte nun schon zu lange auf einen Netcode-Fix von Valve. Dieser Thread wurde von mir eröffnet, damit Valve erkennt, wie viele Spieler mit der derzeitigen Situation unzufrieden sind. Im Folgenden geht es nicht darum aufzuzeigen wie der Netcode funktioniert oder funktionieren sollte. Hierbei geht es einfach nur um die aktuelle Situation und soll Valve dazu anregen, sich endlich dem Netcode-Problem anzunehmen. Dieser Thread ist vor allem an alle E-Sportler gerichtet, die CS:S als Sport sehen und sich auf Turnieren und in Ligen messen. Das Spiel ist durch die derzeitigen Netcode-Bugs nicht wettbewerbsfähig.

2) Testumgebung:
Meine Tests habe ich an zwei „Highend“-Computern und einem dediziertem Lanserver durchgeführt. Die Computer erreichten in jeder Situation der Tests
100fps. Der dedizierte Lanserver wurde in meinem Heimnetzwerk erstellt und lieferte eine konstante 100er Tickrate. Die generellen Netsettings der Clients betrugen: rate 25000, cl_cmdrate 101 und cl_updaterate 101. Diese Werte sind auf allen LANs und Events vorgeschrieben. Ich habe diese Tests im LAN durchgeführt, da man dort einen sehr niedrigen Ping hat und die Client-Server-Kommunikation schneller als im Internet vonstatten geht. Dennoch sind die Ergebnisse der Tests auch auf das Internet übertragbar und (fast) identisch! Im LAN hat man aber trotzdem die besten Voraussetzungen.

3) Die Tests:
3.1) cl_interpolate 0/1:
Zunächst sollte man sich folgendes Video mehrmals anschauen:
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_vid_interpolate1-0.wmv

Auf diesem erkennt man, dass bei „cl_interpolate 1“ das stehende Model, das um die Wand rennende Model zeitlich verspätet sieht. Man hat also in dieser Situation als wartender einen Reaktionsnachteil, da das um die Wand laufende Model, das stehende Model eher sieht und dadurch auch schneller reagieren kann!
Bei „cl_interpolate 0“ sieht man das um die Wand laufende Model zu der gleichen Zeit, wie dieses Model das stehende sieht. Also gibt es bei „cl_interpolate 0“ weder einen Reaktionsvor-, noch einen Reaktionsnachteil!!
Dieser Bug wird im folgenden Bild nochmals verdeutlicht:
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_pic_interpolate1-0.jpg

Zwischenfazit:
Man müsste nun eigentlich davon ausgehen, dass „cl_interpolate 0“ die beste Einstellung ist, ABER es gibt da einen nicht ganz unerheblichen Bug in der Lagcompensation (siehe 3.2).

3.2) cl_interpolate & cl_lagcompensation:
cl_interpolate 0 & cl_lagcompensation 1:
Diese Einstellungen sind schlecht, da man hinter das Model schießen muss um zu treffen!
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_vid_ip0_lc1.wmv
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_pic_ip0_lc1.jpg

cl_interpolate 0 & cl_lagcompensation 0:
Diese Einstellungen sind perfekt! Man hat die Hitbox genau auf dem Model und durch „cl_interpolate 0“ keinen Reaktionsnachteil! Da die Lagkompensation aber deaktiviert wird, kann man diese Einstellungen NUR im LAN wegen des niedrigen Pings benutzen!
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_vid_ip0_lc0.wmv
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_pic_ip0_lc0.jpg

cl_interpolate 1 & cl_lagcompensation 1:
Diese Einstellungen sind in allen LAN- und Internet-Ligen Pflicht, ABER schlecht wegen dem Reaktionsnachteil durch „cl_interpolate 1“!!!
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_vid_ip1_lc1.wmv
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_pic_ip1_lc1.jpg

cl_interpolate 1 & cl_lagcompensation 0:
Diese Einstellungen sind extrem schlecht, da man vor das Model schießen muss um zu treffen!
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_vid_ip1_lc0.wmv
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_pic_ip1_lc0.jpg

Zwischenfazit:
Die besten Client-Settings sind wie man oben erkennt eindeutig „cl_interpolate 0“ UND „cl_lagcompensation 0“, ABER diese Settings kann man nur im LAN anwenden, da die Lagkompensation (Clientseitig) komplett deaktiviert wird. Im LAN ist dies allerdings kein Problem, da alle auf dem Server einen Ping unter 15ms haben!
Im Internet ist es aber die Regel, dass viele Spieler einen Ping ab 25ms und höher haben. Bei solchen „Highping“-Spielern muss man bei den Settings „cl_interpolate 0“ UND „cl_lagcompensation 0“ VOR das Model schießen und ist somit nicht für das Internet anwendbar! Darum wird „cl_interpolate 1“ UND „cl_lagcompensation 1“ im Internet gespielt. Es handelt sich hierbei um das kleinere Übel!

3.3) cl_interpolate & cl_interp:
Wenn man sich folgendes Bild betrachtet:
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_pic_interp.jpg
Erkennt man, dass der „cl_interp“-Wert bei „cl_interpolate 0“ egal ist, da die Interpolation ja deaktiviert ist.
Je höher man bei „cl_interpolate 1“ den „cl-interp“-Wert wählt, desto später sieht man das Model.

Zwischenfazit:
Die Einstellung „cl_interp 0.01“ ist offensichtlich die Sinnvollste.

4) Fazit:
Mein Fazit ist simpel:
Im LAN auf Tickrate-100-Servern müssen folgende Clienteinstellungen vorgenommen werden: cl_interpolate 0, cl_lagcompensation 0, cl_interp 0.01 und folgende Servereinstellung: sv_unlag 0 („0“ = Schaltet die Lagkompensation für jeden Spieler aus)!
Im Internet muss aber leider mit dem kleineren Übel, also weiterhin mit „cl_interpolate 1“, „cl_lagcompensation 1“ gespielt werden… und hier kommt Valve ins Spiel…!

VALVE! BITTE FIXT ENDLICH DIE LAGKOMPENSATION!!!!!!!!!




***UPDATE1:
Die folgenden Cvars haben keinen Einfluss auf den Interpolate-Bug!
cl_smooth 1/0
cl_smoothtime 0.1/1/0.9/0.35
cl_pred_optimize 2/0
cl_interp_all 0/1
cl_interp_npcs 0.0/1
cl_lagcomp_errorcheck 1/0
cl_cmdbackup 2/0/100/101

***UPDATE2:
Das folgende Video zeigt den selben Effekt:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=g7AJ3lBFLOA

***UPDATE3:
Folgende Videos habe ich (20ms) mit einem Highpinger (50ms) auf einem Internet-Server angefertigt:

Bei diesen Settings (cl_interpolate 0, cl_interp 0.01, cl_lagcompensation 0) muss man VOR das Model schießen.
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_vid_internet_ip0lc0.wmv

Bei diesen Settings (cl_interpolate 0, cl_interp 0.01, cl_lagcompensation 1) muss man HINTER das Model schießen.
http://www.thegladbacher.de/n-css/hitboxes/hitbox_vid_internet_ip0lc1.wmv

Fazit:
Es gibt keine guten Einstellungen für "cl_interpolate 0" im Internet!


***UPDATE4:
Dieses Video zeigt den Bug ganz klar:
www.zlam.dk/z0uless/interpolate1.wmv


I got a friend of mine to make a short and simple video: www.zlam.dk/z0uless/interpolate1.wmv

client settings:
cl_interpolate "1"
cl_interp "0.01"
fps_max "101"
rate "25000"
cl_cmdrate "101"
cl_updaterate "101"
cl_smooth "1"
cl_smoothtime "0.1"
cl_lagcompensation "1"

Server runs at tickrate 100 and clients got 19 and 14 ping (online). There is no questioning this bug. Everyone knows about it.

Edit: Notice the headshot happens when you barely see my knee. I bet I could shoot headshot even earlyer, but I'm just human afterall

***UPDATE5:
Ein weiteres video, das zeigt, dass cl_interp 0.01 mehr Delay produziert als 10ms! Danke an Hutz.
http://hutz.sixwinter.com/other/CSSInterpBug.wmv

[ShinSource]

I always figured you could see people faster when you move.

Nice thread, deserves a sticky imo. Dont flame.

[disruptor]

I didn't mean to flame :).

[ShinSource]

lol! I was telling others that :P

by the way, is ducking still delayed by 100ms even on lan ? If so make a video out of it please :)

[disruptor]

Originally posted by ShinSource
lol! I was telling others that :P

by the way, is ducking still delayed by 100ms even on lan ? If so make a video out of it please :)

yes.

[ShinSource]

sigh,,, no wonder people seem to shoot you easier when you duck :S

[Barelds_TUF]

Quite nicely done, excellent job.

[hornysquirrel]

in cs1.5 there was (nearly) the same problem with ex_interp until valve fixed it with cs1.6

So valve please fix this bug.
You can do it again! :D

[EleMenT_BL]

Wow this needs a sticky.

[stalker_2hit6]

im going to have to read that a few more times to full comprehend everything, but that was a very extensive and in depth write up, very impressive

[ShinSource]

FYI...

You can EXPLOIT the ducking lag by ducking behind a box (e.g. behind B on dd2 or generator A on inferno) and lifting the duck up for a split second. Others will not see you come up.

[feng]

Is cl_lagcompensation forced on by servers with sv_unlag?

[disruptor]

no.

[flamez70]

my realplayer and wmv doesnt wanna open these videos it would be a HELLA lot betterr to upload on youtube =/

[Bsquared]

very good discription love it

[gummerz]

sticky this :)

[StrategyFreak04]

Excellent description, I was always wondering why when I was camping I would be killed by people I didn't see yet! (cl_interp 0.01 helps a lot, so that you don't see people after they've killed you. cl_interp 0.1 is the worst!)

This DEFINATELY deserves to be stickied! Explains almost everything about the CS netcode and its problems, and gives a good introduction to anybody wanting to learn about the internal workings of CS.

[Nil313]

the reason you get killed before you can see people has nothing to do with cl_interpolate 1 or 0 most of the time, is has to do with angles in counter strike source. Do a thread search for angles to figure out what im talking about. What this guy is talking about is when you're moving, interpolate effects nothing if you're standing still.

Good thread though, however Im wondering how you came to that final screen shot.

[StrategyFreak04]

Originally posted by Nil313
the reason you get killed before you can see people has nothing to do with cl_interpolate 1 or 0 most of the time, is has to do with angles in counter strike source. Do a thread search for angles to figure out what im talking about. What this guy is talking about is when you're moving, interpolate effects nothing if you're standing still.

Good thread though, however Im wondering how you came to that final screen shot.

Yeah I know. This is what i was talking about.

http://momo.coxcomb-worx.de/disi/hitbox_pic_interpolate1-0.jpg

[Barelds_TUF]

Originally posted by StrategyFreak04
Excellent description, I was always wondering why when I was camping I would be killed by people I didn't see yet! (cl_interp 0.01 helps a lot, so that you don't see people after they've killed you. cl_interp 0.1 is the worst!)

This DEFINATELY deserves to be stickied! Explains almost everything about the CS netcode and its problems, and gives a good introduction to anybody wanting to learn about the internal workings of CS.

The doesnt really explain the inner works of the game at all, only some of the bugs. It however does a very good job at describing/explaining those bugs.

[Narf2k]

Yes, pls fix it.

We've played enough CS:S Beta, time making it final, isn't it?
Well, just before some guys start flaming... I know Valve said it's final, but for me it's not really.

[AeonCraft]

Thanks. Me and my friends now know more in depth why the "hitboxes" (But more lag) is the reason for bs shots.

[ArmadonRK]

Couple of flaws in this argument.

Yes, for LAN, cl_interpolate should be off. This is a given. But online, with interpolate on, cl_interp 0.01 is not necessarily the best.
I'll use myself as a prime example. I live in Europe, I often play on US servers. I ping about 100 thanks to a fast connection, but the distance is still big, and the time it takes for me to receive a packet from the server is long. In this case, cl_interp 0.1 works best. Since players clsoer to the server are receiving messages from the server faster, the delay compensates on my end for other players advantages in terms of reaction times.
On the other hand, playing on a local server with a good ping warrants a smaller cl_interp value.
When I play on European servers and I ping 20 or less, I use cl_interp 0.01, so that I can keep up with the server.

[datdeejay619]

Wow...that was a pretty extreme test.

[xs|Stalker.]

Good work.

By the way, have you tried the same tests on a 66 tick server?

[cetris]

nice post, needs addressing

[bi0]

Originally posted by feng
Is cl_lagcompensation forced on by servers with sv_unlag?

yes

sv_maxunlag on 0.1 and lagcompensation should be realy small oder sv_unlag 0 it should be disabled

nice test disi :>

[Leopard__]

then how would you FIX it?

there is always LAG in the internet world.
-> there must always be compensation.

if you play on LAN sure you can deactivate it.
but for online gaming it is needed.
this is the disadvantage of serversided hit-recognition.
but the advantage (no aimbots) is far greater.

[goomyman]

What you are refering to has absolutely nothing to do with Valves net code and everything to do with ping time.

I dont mean to flame when I say this but VALVE has nothing to do with this at all! and the fact that you claim to be some type of pro CS player you should know this.

Never join a server with over 100 ping and it will be almost not noticeable.

Also, it has always been the advantage to run around a corner and shoot someone so the guy camping a door always loses :).

[falkeri]

Well, at first appearance this looks bad, however...

You have to think about the fact that you ARE using lag-compensation on a LAN, where you don't HAVE lag to compensate for. So maybe on the internet, where there is actually lag to compensate for, it wouldnt look like that, it would be perfectly in sinc.

Secondly, if my first argument is wrong, you don't know that the netcode doesnt take that delay into account when it see who shot first. That is, the reference frame of the advancing player is behind that of the person waiting for him, so it actually matches up when they make the calculations.

[Tristan8969]

:up: important post, and constructive, needs all staff team of valve and work on it plz

[ICantShoot]

Originally posted by Leopard__
then how would you FIX it?

there is always LAG in the internet world.
-> there must always be compensation.




This is why you pick the closest servers near you to avoid lag. Lag compensation was only introduced to the game because valve wanted modem players to be able to play source too, not just DSL people. There are those 56k'rs out there still. This sucks as the hits should be registered when shooted at, not after compensation. (where is enemy hitbox? before of the model or after, no one really knows as the current system sucks)

Originally posted by StrategyFreak04
Yeah I know. This is what i was talking about.

http://momo.coxcomb-worx.de/disi/hitbox_pic_interpolate1-0.jpg

"Its not a bug, its a feature"

[PumPumGanja]

Originally posted by EleMenT_BL
Wow this needs a sticky.

Jepp :)

[Jay]

remove the 56K support and alot of the problems will be solved.

[nimrod1984]

hm valve need to fix it.

[Scinner]

well this is nice in theorie but plenty servers use plugins that force those settings like interp 0.1 , interpolate 1 etc..on the otherhand everybody plays with the same settings then ..and some clanbased things like cal etc force you to play with regular settings..

[Dr.Fly]

Originally posted by Jay_oasis
remove the 56K support and <font color=orange>a lot</font> of the problems will be solved.

true but will it happen?

Also wouldn't this mean they have to rewrite a lot of stuff?

If that's the case it will never happen knowing valve and their priorities.


game on:D

[Zefar]

I think it's more about stopping those rate abusers and giving everyone who play CSS a damn good connection. Then we might have better hit reg on everyone. Otherwise it will be a problem.

Nice post btw OP.

But just because you see him first doesn't mean you'll always get the kill. Because the server look on which exact time both of you where killed on and if you got killed before the other guy you are going to be killed by the server.

Imo this is actually a fine system they use because now we won't be needing to shoot infront of the model nor behind it if you use good rates and don't mess with some of the commands.

But till everyone gets a 10 mb line we will have hit reg problem.

[Dr.Fly]

rate-abuse is somewhat a myth as it works both ways remember.

further more a lot of servers use cvarblock or simulair stuff which forces rates to a certain level.

[MaKauTZ]

Signed :)
Btw disi, please do me the favour and search for a german word on the top of your first post ;x

[Ta!phoon]

good post, valve really need to find a lagcomp without delay!

[MrS]

im a bit dissapointed that you didnt try with cl_smooth on and off as ive found with cl_smooth set to 0 and cl_interp and interpolate set to default i have minimal hit reg issues and 99% of the time the player model is lined up with the hit box..

please retest your work as its not complete.. sry

[swewolf]

nice, #css.eu will support this.

[Amplified]

Good read and very well done hopefully Valve will listen and take actions

[Kyp]

Yeah, quite good.

[asd22]

Nice nice. Hopefully they'll fix this :|.

[iSCraZy]

nice article and yes valve, fix it :)

[BRNC-Jericho]

Originally posted by MrS
im a bit dissapointed that you didnt try with cl_smooth on and off as ive found with cl_smooth set to 0 and cl_interp and interpolate set to default i have minimal hit reg issues and 99% of the time the player model is lined up with the hit box..

please retest your work as its not complete.. sry

Can anyone describe how this works in detail?

[Q-ten]

WELL DONE DISI!!!

I have been observing this bug quite a long time, too.
This bug exactly became present, when valve forced a minimum value of 0.01 to cl_inter
Befor playing with cl_interp 0 , cl_interpolate 0 was quite nice!
- no reaction disadvantage
- no shift in hitbox

Since cl_interp 0,01 became minimum all cl_interpolate 0 players could shoot slightliy behind the model to hit (big, abusiv advantage for awp players)
this sucked very mutch

As this bug is not present in CS 1,6 i suppose that this is one of the major reasons world's elite progamers would not transfer to CSS yet

greetz

[ghost.pos]

Sticky this please, Valve needs to fix this!

[eKaj]

fix it valve.

[disruptor]

Originally posted by Q-ten
I have been observing this bug quite a long time, too.
This bug exactly became present, when valve forced a minimum value of 0.01 to cl_inter
Befor playing with cl_interp 0 , cl_interpolate 0 was quite nice!
- no reaction disadvantage
- no shift in hitbox

Since cl_interp 0,01 became minimum all cl_interpolate 0 players could shoot slightliy behind the model to hit (big, abusiv advantage for awp players)
this sucked very mutch

As this bug is not present in CS 1,6 i suppose that this is one of the major reasons world's elite progamers would not transfer to CSS yet

Jep, indeed.

[Die.beute^]

#signed

[realCosMo]

good work disi
please fix it @ valve

Gute Arbeit disi
bitte Bug beheben @ Valve

:D

[bongman]

Well played Disruptor, someone had to do it.

[Wanker2000]

TTT

Awesome post, I have nothing to add though really.

[[FN]pTosis]

fix it valve!

[ganove]

First of all, nice text...

But one thing comes in my mind:

While looking on the screens of your 2 clients - you obviously see each client time - but the things that count are managed on the server at server time - so maybe this delay is fixed at the server...

[maxwell-cs]

full ack.

[disruptor]

Originally posted by ganove
First of all, nice text...

But one thing comes in my mind:

While looking on the screens of your 2 clients - you obviously see each client time - but the things that count are managed on the server at server time - so maybe this delay is fixed at the server...

Then you would hit somebody with "cl_interpolate 0"... but you ain't.

[k0leg]

well done disi :)

[fps_dean]

Originally posted by ShinSource
I always figured you could see people faster when you move.

Nice thread, deserves a sticky imo. Dont flame.

I'm always getting killed through walls... this explains it in writing basically.

[MrS]

Originally posted by MrS
im a bit dissapointed that you didnt try with cl_smooth on and off as ive found with cl_smooth set to 0 and cl_interp and interpolate set to default i have minimal hit reg issues and 99% of the time the player model is lined up with the hit box..

please retest your work as its not complete.. sry

Originally posted by BRNC-Jericho
Can anyone describe how this works in detail?

in the most simplist terms i can put it in..

when you have smoothing on it allows the client pc to smooth out a connected player movement but the player hit box is not effected by this which can cause the hit box to be in a slightly different place than the player model as the client side PC is adding a little guess work on where the player is which is something you dont want to happen.

by having smoothing off i found that there is a better line up of player model and hit box on net based servers, lan events are minimal so should not count for most people who only play online as in a clan match you will have ten vs ten not one vs one.

Also was the two pc's the test was done on the same spec as a lower spec pc might have problems dealing with the the amount of data a high spec pc can.

and did you know that demo's are recorded at a different tickrate from the server you are playing on, so again demo tickrate can have an effect on what you see when you play the demo back.

also no net_graph 2 data was provided so how do we know that both pc's was running at an optimal settings. net_graph 2 data is very important and i would suggest that people learn how to use it so you can see the effect the map and net line you are on has on your pc and the way it handles data.

not many people know how Valve's net code works, ive only ever come across a few that understand it ( im still learning about it ) but with what im learning im finding that i tend to have great reg for the servers i play on regardless if there is 10 or 64 people playing on there and with 64 people your pc will have to cope with loads of data from the server.

now please retest with smoothing off, to identical pc's and with out a bot to mirror your movement as that will cause an extra load on that pc and that can skew results.

with any test you need to make it as fair as possible and provide valve info on the server and settings and the two pc's used aswell as your findings.

[ganove]

Originally posted by disruptor
Then you would hit somebody with "cl_interpolate 0"... but you ain't.

I am a bit confused right now

generally each client sends his world snapshot to the server - delay depending on the client ping

at the server lag compensation tries to fix the ping differences between the clients - the server also credits each players interp value - then it calculates the game and sends a snapshot to all clients

that means that every player who uses interpolation should get his lost time back

so you see things unsynced on the client screens - but the server should fix that during hit calculations - meaning that the player who sees the other one later will finally have the same time to react and kill the enemy

so you say that this system doesnt work and while using interpolaion every moving player gets a reaction bonus to fixed players?

you need to test it with kills and timings - not only with client positions

pls tell me my errors in reasoning if I am wrong

[disruptor]

The Videos weren't made by tickrate, but by the server-time. Net_graph 2 doesn't matter, because the Clients and the Server had constant high rates. You can trust me I guess... oO. In addition the feeling is the same on LAN-Events and online.

I'm going to test "cl_smooth 0" but I can tell you, that it won't affect the tests!!

[Fiasco]

Nice Test, it´s realy time to fix the netcode.

[MrS]

Originally posted by disruptor
The Videos weren't made by tickrate, but by the server-time. Net_graph 2 doesn't matter, because the Clients and the Server had constant high rates. You can trust me I guess... oO. In addition the feeling is the same on LAN-Events and online.

I'm going to test "cl_smooth 0" but I can tell you, that it won't affect the tests!!

testing with cl_smooth is great but still show me a lan event that has one on one...

i play on a lan server with ten bots and cl_interpolate 1 and cl_interp 0.1 and i dont have the problem that you are claiming in this thread, the server runs the bots..

im not saying the net code is perfect but i feel you need to back up what saying in the thread a lot better than what is going on as this has been done before.. with movies and pic's and still valve wont listen and thats for a reason, they have tested the net code and they might know that it needs a little tweaking ( imo ) but then you must ask yourself what does cal and ED block these commands as im sure they better understand the netcode than what i do. if you email valve to exlain the inner working of the net code and what commands will effect it im sure they will respond.

i ajust net_maxfragments as that has an effect on my pc to benifit me, but i use that as an example for you to show you that interpolate and interp are not the only commands that will have an effect on net code and hit reg.

i know lots of people who net_graph 3 to set there rates but net_graph 3 only shows you a small amount of what net_graph 2 can so it is worth looking at befor you dissmiss it.

im not trying to say that your tests are wrong and are missleading but for a test to be done in the right way and as fair as possible you must check every possibilty not just interpolate and interp and if you check the rest and if all you are left with is interp and interpolate doing what you are trying to prove then it can be nothing else.

I still feel that having two different spec pc's to test on is wrong as how can you expect the same results when you dont know what effect the game will have on the pc.

[jesus likes pie]

good read!

[disruptor]

I'm playing CS:Source since 1,5 years now and I'm testing severall things every week since the first day! So I know what cl_smooth is/was. But I'll test it again, because I don't test cl_smooth every week.

Important is the conclusion:
LAN: interpolate 0, lagcompensation 0 (the optimum)
Inet: interpolate 1, lagcompensation 1 (the lesser of two evils)
Valve has to fix this because back in the days there wasn't that bug! With interpolate 0 the game was competitive (not with interpolate 1 ^^!)

But the stupidest thing you can do is playing interpolate 1 and interp 0.1 !

[seevers]

Originally posted by Barelds_TUF
The doesnt really explain the inner works of the game at all, only some of the bugs. It however does a very good job at describing/explaining those bugs.

Alot better job than UnknowFactor. Oh wait he is banned.

[MrS]

if the stupidist thing i can do is play with cl_interpolate 1 and cl_interp 0.1 then please explain whay i dont have the same problems when i play on my lan server ( my lan server is a amd64 3500+, 1gig ram, fx5950ultra, 80gig hard drive and running xp home ) that you show in the movies and images as im at a loss why my pc would respond in a totaly different way to what you show with those commands.

[disruptor]

The higher the "cl_interp"-Value the later do you see the models.

[Deadly Chicken]

If valve knew their own net code properly they would not need to leave it open for the user to set his rates etc, they would be able to verify the connetion this person has and set their rates optimally for them,

but they do not and have never done so

Hell most people like it, they like the hands on ability to chage their settigns manually

[disruptor]

Originally posted by Barelds_TUF
The doesnt really explain the inner works of the game at all, only some of the bugs. It however does a very good job at describing/explaining those bugs.

Thats what I wanted to do and thats what I wrote into the Introduction :). I don't know the code and not exactly how to fix this Problem. Thats what Valve will do I hope.

[StrategyFreak04]

Originally posted by Barelds_TUF
The doesnt really explain the inner works of the game at all, only some of the bugs. It however does a very good job at describing/explaining those bugs.

The pictures and videos help a lot in showing how each console setting affects the position of models and how each cvar changes the locations where you need to shoot, etc. You can learn a lot about how the server compensates for lag this way through the images and the explanation.

Its just that some people (ahem) can't realize whats an explanation even when its in their face.

[FrostbiteX]

Nice!

[asd22]

Originally posted by StrategyFreak04
The pictures and videos help a lot in showing how each console setting affects the position of models and how each cvar changes the locations where you need to shoot, etc. You can learn a lot about how the server compensates for lag this way through the images and the explanation.

Its just that some people (ahem) can't realize whats an explanation even when its in their face.

yeah thats true. i really hope that valve will fix this asap!

[o_kpeta_convert]

I don't understand the tittle of the thread. The fix will be to everyone. :)

[goomyman]

What fix? I guess Valve could pay for fiber optics going to everyones house directly and servers within 1 mile from everyones house.

[asd22]

Originally posted by goomyman
What fix? I guess Valve could pay for fiber optics going to everyones house directly and servers within 1 mile from everyones house.

the game is not competitive even on lan with the lagcompensation!

[MashY*]

He quotes Barelds_TUF, then says:

Originally posted by seevers
Alot better job than UnknowFactor. Oh wait he is banned.

Anyone else see the irony? Made me lol.

seevers - Barelds IS TheUnknownFactor, keke?

The issue for server admins online is we have to cater for users acorss the spectrum of settings / connections etc. ex_interp 0.1 works better for that scenario, but of course, 0.01 for lan works best in that controlled environment.

GJ

[seevers]

Originally posted by MashY*
He quotes Barelds_TUF, then says:



Anyone else see the irony? Made me lol.

seevers - Barelds IS TheUnknownFactor, keke?

The issue for server admins online is we have to cater for users acorss the spectrum of settings / connections etc. ex_interp 0.1 works better for that scenario, but of course, 0.01 for lan works best in that controlled environment.

GJ

Yes. I knew exactly who it was. It was an intentional comment.
I love how he posts as if he is all mighty and knowlegable as a user. When in fact my own GSP has been on top of his so called "experiments" for a long time. Way before his post on the issue. So I am not impressed. I am however impressed by someone (this poster) laying it out in layman terms. Instead of someone gloating how smart and credible they are. It really isnt all the uncommon for Alfred to thank someone. He has thanked me and staff of my GSP many times. Again...not impressed.

So go kekekekekekekeke somewhere else.

[weedo]

Great thread, exposes this bug perfectly!

VALVe need to fix this bug, i want to play more fairly than this and i have noticed myself getting headshots when i aim next to peoples heads while they move. Its because they are really where i am shooting, but i cant see that.

[MrS]

i found this on net_code tests

http://whisper.ausgamers.com/wiki/index.php/Netcode_tests

might help with a retest as you did use a bot that was set to mirror your actions which can give you a false readings.

[WatchDog]

/sticky

[nimrod1984]

Hope, they can solve the problem fast :/

[MaKauTZ]

Originally posted by Q-ten
As this bug is not present in CS 1,6 i suppose that this is one of the major reasons world's elite progamers would not transfer to CSS yet

greetz
Thanks Q-ten, I agree.
Mods please stick that thread on top.
Too much time went by without any changes, so try harder this time!

[oru]

Yes. pls fix this bug and css will become better than cs 1.6 :]

[tErM]

sticky this topic please.
disi the best!


Valve u must fix it !

[Die.beute^]

do anyone expect feedback from an mod? xD

never.

[ghost.pos]

I don't think it's their responsibility to provide feedback. Also note that there have been endless threads on this topic, this one is particularly well constructed. Instead of responding, Valve should be Fixing.

It's about time.

[simme[ger]]

valve fix this

[_al]

+1

[NayR]

nice work fix it VALVe please!

[asd22]

Originally posted by oru
Yes. pls fix this bug and css will become better than cs 1.6 :]

yeah thats true! the netcode fix makes the game much more better!!!!

[disruptor]

100% agree :)!

[-=[ZdG]=-Balder]

VALVE look at this CS:S Mod http://www.cspromod.com
make it so like this mods ( the maps too ) and Source will be the most popular Steam Game like CS 1.6

[asd22]

CS:S has to be more professional than the cspromod! VALVE PLEASE DO SOMETHING!

[disruptor]

2nd day:
100 Posts
18650 Views
24 votes - 4.83 average

I really hope, that Valve will react!

[Separate]

Yes, please fix it ! ! !

[k0leg]

i have an other idea to make it better - maybe valve can make a cvar command to disable all items lieing on the ground for example tins...

[asd22]

good would be a cvar that enables/disables settings for professionals and settings for public and spectators.

[duke nukem]

professional cyber-athlete... hahaha sorry that always cracks me up

[Tristan8969]

I really hope, that Valve will react too

[Nightmare85]

Very good thread!

--> Valve, do something <--

New radar, new maps, dynamic weapon pricing... all fine :)
But don't forget the most important thing (for me):

The N E T C O D E

Greets

[asd22]

AMEN !

[disruptor]

AMEN !

[Nightmare85]

English:

But I also have a question:
You all know the typical problem, that you see the enemy and want to run in cover.
But the enemy kills you, because your new position wasn't registered by the server.
Or you stay behind a box, see the enemy and the you do crouching.
The enemy kills you.
He doesn't shoot through the box, he shoots like you still were standing.
Very good to see on servers with mani admin plugin (death beam).
Is this the same problem ?

Greets

Deutsch:
Aber ich habe noch eine Frage:
Ihr alle kennt ja sicherlich das typische Problem, dass ihr einen Gegner sieht und schnell in Deckung rennen oder springen wollt.
Der Gegner tötet euch aber, als wärt ihr noch garnicht um die Ecke gesprungen.
Weil eure neue Position einfach noch nicht so schnell berrechnet wurde.
Oder ihr steht hinter einer Kiste, seht den Gegner, und wollt euch schnell ducken.
Er tötet euch.
Aber nicht in dem er durch die Kiste schießt, sondern als wärt ihr immer noch im Stehen hinter der Kiste.
Dank dem Mani Admin Plugin, kann man das genau erkennen, wie er euch getötet hat.
Also mit dem Strahl!
Ist das nun das gleiche Problem?

Grüße

[disruptor]

Yes.
Ja.

[EdoArdO]

yes, please fix the net-code thx ;)

[player451]

I never bothered to change thsoe settings, but I definately will now!

[maxwell-cs]

*push it*

[X-L]

do you get any answer dis?

[JanetReno]

Agree with the first poster. It's lame dying before you see the enemy round the corner.

[MtnDue]

Posted for support.

[wh1tey]

good work disi ;)

hope valve fix this sh.t

regards
wh1tey

[Dysan-XI]

Originally posted by -=[ZdG]=-Balder
VALVE look at this CS:S Mod http://www.cspromod.com
make it so like this mods ( the maps too ) and Source will be the most popular Steam Game like CS 1.6

If they wanted to make CS:S just like 1.6, they would've done so. Counter-Strike: Source is nearly a completely different game.

[eXecUtor]

VALVE! PLEASE FINALLY FIX THE LAG-COMPENSATION!!!!!!!!!

[polka]

Originally posted by seevers
Yes. I knew exactly who it was. It was an intentional comment.
I love how he posts as if he is all mighty and knowlegable as a user. When in fact my own GSP has been on top of his so called "experiments" for a long time. Way before his post on the issue. So I am not impressed. I am however impressed by someone (this poster) laying it out in layman terms. Instead of someone gloating how smart and credible they are. It really isnt all the uncommon for Alfred to thank someone. He has thanked me and staff of my GSP many times. Again...not impressed.

So go kekekekekekekeke somewhere else.
i dont get it?

tuf's thread explains it in laymans terms too.

it isnt his fault theres different degrees of 'layman' is it?...........................................
-------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
anyway,
it needs fixing, but in the meantime do what i do and adapt to it.

i started on 56k conn in normal cs, and i experienced the same thing; you could never sit and wait for someone to come around a corner to kill them, you would lose.

i always had to dart in and out of corners to take people out, that way u aint just sitting there waiting to be shot.

its a shame source plays like everyone is on a 56k modem as far as lag compensation is concerned anyway.

until its fixed, the best bet is to just play like you are on 56k tbh, never stand still.

lag-kills are not cool.

[gnoble]

signed.

I wonder if this issue is related to lag in demo recordings, where you see, in 6% speed, that bullets are fired (muzzle flash, etc) before aiming is done (aiming towards hitpoint/target after bullet is fired, you can see the crosshair moving to the bullethole after the bullet is fired).

[disruptor]

Originally posted by polka
until its fixed, the best bet is to just play like you are on 56k tbh, never stand still.

lag-kills are not cool.

word!

[asd22]

jepjep:O

[MaKauTZ]

Originally posted by MaKauTZ
Mods please stick that thread on top.

[pOOrbOy]

*bump*

[asd22]

Originally posted by Nightmare85
Very good thread!

--> Valve, do something <--

New radar, new maps, dynamic weapon pricing... all fine :)
But don't forget the most important thing (for me):

The N E T C O D E

Greets

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[EdoArdO]

please fix this interpolate because for competitive gaming is a real obsession having it not fixed and not right


thanks, hoping in valve

[disruptor]

still waiting...

[EdoArdO]

valve? :look:

[harrypalmer]

Bump For Great Justice!

[Tristan8969]

valve read it plz :)

[Killtek]

Someone mentioned the lag compensation code was designed to let 56k uers play on Source games. I really think it's time that Valve cut the cord and forget 56k support for future games... Seriously , are there any 56k players downloaing content from Steam??? Then why should we suffer for the losers that live in cow country?

[Barelds_TUF]

Originally posted by seevers
Alot better job than UnknowFactor. Oh wait he is banned.

Still bum-hurt over me not moderating a pathetic excuse for a flamewar? Or are you hurt now because I punished both sides of the argument? How about you file for quality control again? Oh wait, they already knew you're nothing but a whiny 11 year old after the first time you filed for quality control, and email all CAL sponsors because you weren't getting your way.

Originally posted by disruptor
Thats what I wanted to do and thats what I wrote into the Introduction :). I don't know the code and not exactly how to fix this Problem. Thats what Valve will do I hope.

Don't get me wrong, I am by no means slating what you're doing here. As a matter of fact, you're doing an infinitely better job then my thread at putting the problem up for display. I was merely responding to the person saying that this explains the ins and outs of the netcode, and saying that this more so displayed the problems, rather then explain the netcode itself.

Originally posted by seevers
I love how he posts as if he is all mighty and knowlegable as a user. When in fact my own GSP has been on top of his so called "experiments" for a long time. Way before his post on the issue. So I am not impressed. I am however impressed by someone (this poster) laying it out in layman terms. Instead of someone gloating how smart and credible they are. It really isnt all the uncommon for Alfred to thank someone. He has thanked me and staff of my GSP many times. Again...not impressed.
LoL

You and your GSP did this testing all before? So, where exactly are the results posted? Oh wait, let me guess, they never left you and your GSP did they?

Me gloating about how credible I am? Read through my thread, for every user who questions my results I recommend to test it themselves and provide a good test enviroment.

I hardly care for how impressed you are with anything. After all, you're the kind of person that only gives a damn when admins or people are biased in your favor. You're the kind of person that would hold this community and game back in every way possible if it is in any way profitable to you, your reputation, or your friends. Actually, If anything I'd prefer you not being impressed, that would atleast prove I haven't shown any bias in your favor.

Originally posted by Killtek
Someone mentioned the lag compensation code was designed to let 56k uers play on Source games. I really think it's time that Valve cut the cord and forget 56k support for future games... Seriously , are there any 56k players downloaing content from Steam??? Then why should we suffer for the losers that live in cow country?

The default netcode enviroment is made to work for all connection settings, starting with 56k, however can be scaled up significantly where the need for it exists. IMO; the default enviroment should be targetted to 128k modems (which is more then what you're probally assuming right now), and downscalable towards 56k (Valve seems to have taken this approach for DOD: S).

[disruptor]

just fix it valve! :O!

[MunkeyBuns]

Excellent info. this thread needs to be in the sticky notes. please valve fix the net code. thank u.

[o_kpeta_convert]

Originally posted by Killtek
Someone mentioned the lag compensation code was designed to let 56k uers play on Source games. I really think it's time that Valve cut the cord and forget 56k support for future games... Seriously , are there any 56k players downloaing content from Steam??? Then why should we suffer for the losers that live in cow country?

Hail o/. You are right, white man from the town. :>

[StrategyFreak04]

Don't get me wrong, I am by no means slating what you're doing here. As a matter of fact, you're doing an infinitely better job then my thread at putting the problem up for display. I was merely responding to the person saying that this explains the ins and outs of the netcode, and saying that this more so displayed the problems, rather then explain the netcode itself.


I think any player who simply wants to know how the netcode functions, not a complex lecture on the exact importance of every single variable concerning how the server and the client compensates for lag. Not only would be people not be able to understand it, but it wouldn't be practical for a forum like this.

While the initial purpose of the thread is to explain the problems of the netcode, it also does an excellent job of introducing the netcode to the beginners. It explicitly shows, with pictures, how the changing of certain critical variables can affect how the client displays enemies and how the server interprets hits. Now, if you care to explain it better, please do so, but as of now this is the best introduction I have seen to the netcode.

[frasierdog]

fix it

now please

[Deas]

Great Job Disrupter!
With all the talking going on lately i wasn't really able to understand the problem with the lagcompensation until you made that significant thread with those amazing pictures. The funny thing is. Now that you mentioned it in such detail I'm really starting to notice that bug over and over again.

I'm really looking forward to having fixed this issue or to get any kind of response from a developer.

[Jacc0s]

Please stick this thread

[Lurxu]

Real nice thread. I hope valve would finally pay attention to this and fix the netcode.

[weedo]

I just played online and really did notice this again. It needs fixing. :o

[MrS]

saddly i dont have the problem this guy has and i dont think you cant rely on his results as..

1, he used bots to mimic his movements ( using bots in that way will have a negitive effect on net code )
2, he did not say if he used a server mod or not
3, he gave no info on the server side settings he was using
4, he gave no info on client settings he was using
5, he did not provide server specs and os it was running on
6, he did not provide client side pc specs and what was running on there
7, he did not test other net code commands in his test
8, he did not test using different rate's
9, he did not repeat the test on day of defeat source as they use the same netcode
10, he provided no net graph 2 data to prove that the server and client pc was running with no hidden issues ( any issues with map, server, client pc and running tasks will show in net_graph 2 )

[Barelds_TUF]

saddly i dont have the problem this guy has and i dont think you cant rely on his results as..

1, he used bots to mimic his movements ( using bots in that way will have a negitive effect on net code )
2, he did not say if he used a server mod or not
3, he gave no info on the server side settings he was using
4, he gave no info on client settings he was using
5, he did not provide server specs and os it was running on
6, he did not provide client side pc specs and what was running on there
7, he did not test other net code commands in his test
8, he did not test using different rate's
9, he did not repeat the test on day of defeat source as they use the same netcode
10, he provided no net graph 2 data to prove that the server and client pc was running with no hidden issues ( any issues with map, server, client pc and running tasks will show in net_graph 2 )

If you don't trust them, how about you test them for yourself? These results have been proven consistent on practically every enviroment in use to date.

[Joseph]

I agree with the original topic creator.

[MaKauTZ]

sup every1?

[disruptor]

saddly i dont have the problem this guy has and i dont think you cant rely on his results as..

1, he used bots to mimic his movements ( using bots in that way will have a negitive effect on net code )
2, he did not say if he used a server mod or not
3, he gave no info on the server side settings he was using
4, he gave no info on client settings he was using
5, he did not provide server specs and os it was running on
6, he did not provide client side pc specs and what was running on there
7, he did not test other net code commands in his test
8, he did not test using different rate's
9, he did not repeat the test on day of defeat source as they use the same netcode
10, he provided no net graph 2 data to prove that the server and client pc was running with no hidden issues ( any issues with map, server, client pc and running tasks will show in net_graph 2 )

1. I didn't use Bots! Read my article carefully (§2).
2. Server didn't use plugins.
3. The serversettings are taken from important LAN-Tournaments.
4. Read my article carefully (§2).
5. Doesn't Matter.
6. Doesn't Matter.
7. The other commands doesn't matter!
8. Because highrates are better and forced on LAN-Events.
9. I'm a CS:S professional cyber-athlete... I don't care about DoD!
10. net_graph 2 doesn't matter, because the Server and the Clients provided high performance and rates in every situation!

You can trust me in what I've done! I'm not a noob oO. I'm playing on several international events and making money by getting bashed by interpolate :O. It's just like it is! Valve HAS TO fix this!

[MrS]

If you don't trust them, how about you test them for yourself? These results have been proven consistent on practically every enviroment in use to date.

im sry but all disruptor has proven is that if you play around with 3 of the commands that effect netcode it will cause problems. he has still yet to prove the net code is faulty as the sum of source net code is more than just 3 commands.. and it seems that besides valve im the only one who knows that.

I would test if i had a 3rd pc but i only have 2 so i could never provide results that are fair ( plus for the test to be fair both client pc's would need to be of the same spec and the server would need to run without a server mod )

the most imporant things in the test that was done has been missed out of the test and the worse things to add to a test he added.

He made a test based on trial and error with no understanding of how the game works and how can it be called a true test and proof of faulty net code which valve needs to fix when he would never be able to prove his results in a fair test enviroment. I bet he never knew that running a server at 100 tick rate creates certain bugs to happen but i will let him research that one as the bugs are server side and not client side.

[disruptor]

im sry but all disruptor has proven is that if you play around with 3 of the commands that effect netcode it will cause problems. he has still yet to prove the net code is faulty as the sum of source net code is more than just 3 commands.. and it seems that besides valve im the only one who knows that.

I would test if i had a 3rd pc but i only have 2 so i could never provide results that are fair ( plus for the test to be fair both client pc's would need to be of the same spec and the server would need to run without a server mod )

the most imporant things in the test that was done has been missed out of the test and the worse things to add to a test he added.

He made a test based on trial and error with no understanding of how the game works and how can it be called a true test and proof of faulty net code which valve needs to fix when he would never be able to prove his results in a fair test enviroment. I bet he never knew that running a server at 100 tick rate creates certain bugs to happen but i will let him research that one as the bugs are server side and not client side.

You are talking bull&hearts;&hearts;&hearts;&hearts;. Get a friend and test your settings! You can post the missing commands and I could do it. The testet settings are the more important.
By the way:
1. My aim was to show the important commands and their effects. I wanted to show Valve, that there is a annoying bug in the netcode and that they have to fix this!
2. I accomplished the tests in a fair environment! LAN + 2x highend-PCs are fair oO! Tickrate 100 means more data is processed by the server and thats of course better for competitive gaming!

[sonax]

100 % agree with disruptor

[wsc]

itd be sooooooo much better if source would use polygons hit detection like in doom instead if squared hitboxes. In doom I have picked up the pistol(its a weak weapon but accurate). Then I was shooting a friend stationnary and sometimes when he was moving. I could shot a .2 milimeters away from his head and it wouldnt hit. Ive tested it for everypart of the body also between the legs, arms&chest.

Pixel hit detection would requierd too much cpu.
Polygon hit detection would perfect because its the frame of the model.
Hitboxes dectection is too flawed.

I hate how this game netcodes works to help out higher pingers to hit better. You shouldnt be playing on a server from a different continent.. now for 56kers.. How many do we actually see? If somebody cannot afford better then a 56k modem I would hardly believe they would also have a computer capable of running CS:S.

[MrS]

1. I didn't use Bots! Read my article carefully (§2). -------- ok my bad but who did you use to mimic your movement as it looks like a bot
2. Server didn't use plugins. thats good to hear
3. The serversettings are taken from important LAN-Tournaments. which are ????
4. Read my article carefully (§2). well you only said that you was using 100/100/25000 on the rates
5. Doesn't Matter. ------ oh yes it does.. go have a look at the window and lunix sections and see how much troble and effort people go through to get there server at its best.
6. Doesn't Matter. ------ lol yes it does... i run xp x64 and i run that for a reason as it gives me an advantage over people who run normal 32bit pc as the 64bit version runs the game alot smoother as the latency times at the hardware level are alot better and there is also less load on system resources due to the 64bit features of my cpu. Norton anti-virus is a resource hog and can cause issues in game. there is more but im not going to go through them right now.
7. The other commands doesn't matter! ---- spoken like a true noob ( i dont think you are one though ) a few commands that will effect the way net code is treated on your pc, cl_cmdbackup, net_maxfragments,cl_lagcomp_errorcheck
8. Because highrates are better and forced on LAN-Events. ------yeah maybe but this is a test you are doing not a match and there is less people on the server in your test
9. I'm a CS:S professional cyber-athlete... I don't care about DoD! ---- dod would give you a great results as you would have two games that use the same net code. you say the net code is faulty and i say dod would help you prove that, but thats up to you if you want to add more proof to your claim
10. net_graph 2 doesn't matter, because the Server and the Clients provided high performance and rates in every situation! ---- like i said before using net_graph 2 does matter as it can let you see problems that you cant see with your eye's plus net_graph 3 is not always right but with net_graph 2 i can see choke and if my pc is dropping packets that net_graph 3 does not report. i can see the the quality of connection i have ( not guess i have it cause its lan ) and if my lan rates are causing problems. If you still feel that net_graph 2 is not important then please email someone at valve and ask them why do we have net_graph 2 or take a look in the support section as i know there is loads on net_graph 2 in there.


as ive said before im not trying to prove your test is wrong i just have questions about the info you have provided and why you left important stuff out of your test and test results. If you want to test the net code then test the net code not just one part of it like you have as how can your results be reliable when you test 20% of the net code.

[disruptor]

1. I didn't use Bots! Read my article carefully (§2). -------- ok my bad but who did you use to mimic your movement as it looks like a bot
2. Server didn't use plugins. thats good to hear
3. The serversettings are taken from important LAN-Tournaments. which are ????
4. Read my article carefully (§2). well you only said that you was using 100/100/25000 on the rates
5. Doesn't Matter. ------ oh yes it does.. go have a look at the window and lunix sections and see how much troble and effort people go through to get there server at its best.
6. Doesn't Matter. ------ lol yes it does... i run xp x64 and i run that for a reason as it gives me an advantage over people who run normal 32bit pc as the 64bit version runs the game alot smoother as the latency times at the hardware level are alot better and there is also less load on system resources due to the 64bit features of my cpu. Norton anti-virus is a resource hog and can cause issues in game. there is more but im not going to go through them right now.
7. The other commands doesn't matter! ---- spoken like a true noob ( i dont think you are one though ) a few commands that will effect the way net code is treated on your pc, cl_cmdbackup, net_maxfragments,cl_lagcomp_errorcheck
8. Because highrates are better and forced on LAN-Events. ------yeah maybe but this is a test you are doing not a match and there is less people on the server in your test
9. I'm a CS:S professional cyber-athlete... I don't care about DoD! ---- dod would give you a great results as you would have two games that use the same net code. you say the net code is faulty and i say dod would help you prove that, but thats up to you if you want to add more proof to your claim
10. net_graph 2 doesn't matter, because the Server and the Clients provided high performance and rates in every situation! ---- like i said before using net_graph 2 does matter as it can let you see problems that you cant see with your eye's plus net_graph 3 is not always right but with net_graph 2 i can see choke and if my pc is dropping packets that net_graph 3 does not report. i can see the the quality of connection i have ( not guess i have it cause its lan ) and if my lan rates are causing problems. If you still feel that net_graph 2 is not important then please email someone at valve and ask them why do we have net_graph 2 or take a look in the support section as i know there is loads on net_graph 2 in there.


as ive said before im not trying to prove your test is wrong i just have questions about the info you have provided and why you left important stuff out of your test and test results. If you want to test the net code then test the net code not just one part of it like you have as how can your results be reliable when you test 20% of the net code.

cl_cmdbackup, net_maxfragments,cl_lagcomp_errorcheck haven't got a effect on this topic oO! If you dont trust me, test it with a friend!

[MrS]

cl_cmdbackup, net_maxfragments,cl_lagcomp_errorcheck haven't got a effect on this topic oO! If you dont trust me, test it with a friend!

i know they dont have effect on this topic but they effect net code.. and as your topic states net code fix i thought you might of tested them as they are a very big part of net code for source games. also some commands are very important and they are there for diagnogstic reasons but that would not be of any intrest to your tests even though they will effect your results

[EdoArdO]

mmh valve?

!

[MrS]

mmh valve?

!

i cant see valve responding to this thread as the test results are incomplete.

[Nightmare85]

Yes Valve, the new forum style looks beautiful.

And now, fix the netcode, please ;)

Greets

[dusK]

i know they dont have effect on this topic but they effect net code.. and as your topic states net code fix i thought you might of tested them as they are a very big part of net code for source games. also some commands are very important and they are there for diagnogstic reasons but that would not be of any intrest to your tests even though they will effect your results

cl_lagcomp_errorcheck does NOTHING. it´s completely without function since a few updates. before that, it just collected information, it didn`t change anything in the netcode.
cmdbackup doesnt matter here too, it just enhighers your ping a very very little.
maxfragments is only interesting for modders.
so no command affects this what this thread is all about.

this would maybe be the first update everyone loves, a true "improved lagcompesantion" (quotet of an earlier update news ;))

[MrS]

cl_lagcomp_errorcheck = Player index of other player to check for position errors.
cl_lagcompensation = Perform server side lag compensation of weapon firing events

[disruptor]

cl_lagcomp_errorcheck = Player index of other player to check for position errors.
cl_lagcompensation = Perform server side lag compensation of weapon firing events

cl_lagcomp_errorcheck was on in my tests...

Valve said in one News, that the lagcompensation is fixed. Not everything that Valve said is true! And btw cl_lagcomp_errorcheck has no effect on the bugie netcode-issue that is described here!

[disruptor]

i cant see valve responding to this thread as the test results are incomplete.

These tests are NOT incomplete. All important commands had been tested. Stop flaming.

[MrS]

These tests are NOT incomplete. All important commands had been tested. Stop flaming.

so im flaming by explaining why i feel your tests are incomplete.. if you feel im flaming then please report me to a forum mod so they can ban me...

i cant help your closed mind on source net code.. thats not my fault.. but im trying to be a voice of reason ( the only one by the looks of it ). I know other people that know more about how the game and net code works than me and they agree that your tests are based on trial and error and not fact about source net code, the game and the way it works. Not one of them inculding me is saying that you are wrong but for valve to listen you have to do a lot better than what you have.

so far what you have done has been done more than 20 times on the steam forum and no one from valve has gone, ok.. i can see your test was a good one and we will look into it. People who do work at valve do check the forums and they have most likely been following the thread but with only half a test done on source net code how on earth do you expect them to take this issue any further than a post on the forum.

[dusK]

cl_lagcomp_errorcheck = Player index of other player to check for position errors.
cl_lagcompensation = Perform server side lag compensation of weapon firing events


i repeat it, lagcomp_errorcheck has ABSOLUTELY NO FUNCTION ANYMORE

[MrS]

i repeat it, lagcomp_errorcheck has ABSOLUTELY NO FUNCTION ANYMORE

im sry but i got to ask... prove it.. link me with comments from people who work from valve who have said that.

[nadez5]

wat about these settings?


cl_cmdbackup
cl_smooth
cl_smoothtime

[hotbot]

fix it please!

[nadez5]

the most ideal thing i think valve could do is lock the net code settings all together and make only selectable options in the game's vgui for internet speed and lan.

[oldrip]

100 % agree with disruptor

[Nightmare85]

100 % agree with disruptor

Me, too.

YES!

Greets

[disruptor]

so im flaming by explaining why i feel your tests are incomplete.. if you feel im flaming then please report me to a forum mod so they can ban me...

i cant help your closed mind on source net code.. thats not my fault.. but im trying to be a voice of reason ( the only one by the looks of it ). I know other people that know more about how the game and net code works than me and they agree that your tests are based on trial and error and not fact about source net code, the game and the way it works. Not one of them inculding me is saying that you are wrong but for valve to listen you have to do a lot better than what you have.

so far what you have done has been done more than 20 times on the steam forum and no one from valve has gone, ok.. i can see your test was a good one and we will look into it. People who do work at valve do check the forums and they have most likely been following the thread but with only half a test done on source net code how on earth do you expect them to take this issue any further than a post on the forum.

So then they can post their tests or be quiet.

[disruptor]

wat about these settings?


cl_cmdbackup
cl_smooth
cl_smoothtime

these settings haven't got an effect.

[disruptor]

the most ideal thing i think valve could do is lock the net code settings all together and make only selectable options in the game's vgui for internet speed and lan.

That's a really nice idea!

[MrS]

wat about these settings?


cl_cmdbackup
cl_smooth
cl_smoothtime

these settings do have an effect to a certain degree but no one is willing to include them in there tests as i guess it can have a negitive effect.

[Que]

Very good thread!

--> Valve, do something <--

New radar, new maps, dynamic weapon pricing... all fine :)
But don't forget the most important thing (for me):

The N E T C O D E

Greets

I want


Shadows
Clipping
Tweak all the guns (m3 scope weeeeeee. long range shotgun :D)
defuse bug
Port CZ hostage AI or something better.
http://files.filefront.com/CZ_hostagesW...fileinfo.html
http://files.filefront.com/CZwmv/;4633204;;/fileinfo.html

[Que]

So then they can post their tests or be quiet.

^^^^ Why not MrS?

[juggrnaut]

how on earth do you expect them to take this issue any further than a post on the forum.

So tons of users are saying "fix it, fix it," several have made the point and tested what they want fixed and have shown that it does need fixed...

Common sense says "fix it." Valve lacks common sense.

this forum style looks like a reverse contrast nightmare from hell

[ghost.pos]

So tons of users are saying "fix it, fix it," several have made the point and tested what they want fixed and have shown that it does need fixed...

Common sense says "fix it." Valve lacks common sense.

this forum style looks like a reverse contrast nightmare from hell

They don't have the resources. Blame them for their management. I am sure there is not enough going on there to get these things going in the company with source. I love when these threads start, because they always explode with enthusiasm, and eventually a mod will shut it because it blatently shows the ridiculousness of Valve and their support for source.

[BD|Lefty]

these settings do have an effect to a certain degree but no one is willing to include them in there tests as i guess it can have a negitive effect.

First of all: Nice post disruptor. Well done.

Mrs,

not that i've tested it in detail but these commands seem to tighten the issues with the lagcompensation. The effect of cl_cmdbackup might be low on broadband (2000 or more kbit) but seem to have a huge effect if the connection speed is slower.

With cl_smooth on it feels like no model is drawn in the correct location.

A test would be nice. Maybe disruptor make another one?

[seevers]

Still bum-hurt over me not moderating a pathetic excuse for a flamewar? Or are you hurt now because I punished both sides of the argument? How about you file for quality control again? Oh wait, they already knew you're nothing but a whiny 11 year old after the first time you filed for quality control, and email all CAL sponsors because you weren't getting your way.

Pfft. I would be hurt over crap you say. Your the one who thinks they are king over a bunch of 11 year olds. You feel good about yourself going into forums and "being the big tough guy" and flexing your e-muscles. For your info I never went to QC, not once...and not twice. Your lying if you say otherwise. And keep talking, because I work at a CAL sponsor. Which does not like you in the least. Go get your jollies off now e-thug. Obviously Valve even hated you with your first name because you were banned. So you make another.


You and your GSP did this testing all before? So, where exactly are the results posted? Oh wait, let me guess, they never left you and your GSP did they?

Me gloating about how credible I am? Read through my thread, for every user who questions my results I recommend to test it themselves and provide a good test enviroment.

I hardly care for how impressed you are with anything. After all, you're the kind of person that only gives a damn when admins or people are biased in your favor. You're the kind of person that would hold this community and game back in every way possible if it is in any way profitable to you, your reputation, or your friends. Actually, If anything I'd prefer you not being impressed, that would atleast prove I haven't shown any bias in your favor.

The results are posted in emails to Alfred. We are not whiny scum looking for forum approval like yourself. The rest of your post makes not since on that subject.

I believe you tooted your own horn quite a bit in your post. Was evident you want to be "top dog" in Valve forums. Which you will never be. Your someone who thinks e-power gives them the world. Keep dreaming. You tout how your wrote a plugin, spoke with Alfred. Who cares....lots have written plugins and lots have spoke with Alfred. Your plugin gets used because your head of AC for CAL. Little biased there dont ya think. There are several CVAR blockers out there.

Your the kind of person, that well....like I said. Loves to climb the highest on the Monkey Bars so all the little kids think your something great.

You think your hot snot on a silver plater, but your really a cold booger on a paper plate.

There is a whole swarm of people that cant stand you Barelds. And no not cheaters. From CAL-I to CAL-O. Alot think your a doofus. But I love in your open letter to Valve about the Weapon Pricing you gloat that CAL-I players have thanked you. Geee.....would that be hard to get thanks for when your head of ANTI-CHEAT in CAL.

Your whining about the Weapons Pricing, made me ashamed to have anything to do with CAL. You honestly think your better than normal players playing the game non-competitively. Well I have news. Every person played this game non-competitively when they started. Your a bigot who crys when CAL doest get their way...and over-reacts. 2 petitions and one open letter....dont you think thats extreme and childish? And when it came down to it. You have NO effect on the decision. CPL did. Pfft...Alfred probably already had a CVAR for the weapons before you opened you big mouth about it. He probably anticiapated your crying and whining about the issue. He probably said to himself...."I want to see just how much of a baby this CAL guy is gonna be before I announce there is a CVAR". And to add insult to injury...he tells Angel Munez...not "big shot" Barelds. Ha Ha.
But again, you were doing it to be looked up to be 12 year olds. Cause it makes you feel good.

Cheers.

[disruptor]

these settings do have an effect to a certain degree but no one is willing to include them in there tests as i guess it can have a negitive effect.

You got no idea I guess... You are talking very much as the day is long I guess. Test it or be quiet. These Settings have got NO effect on the interpolation bug!

[MrS]

You got no idea I guess... You are talking very much as the day is long I guess. Test it or be quiet. These Settings have got NO effect on the interpolation bug!

i hope you can prove that as you dont in your test

[disruptor]

counterevidence pls

[wsc]

god mrs stop replying. postcount isnt everything or are you so blind? source netcode is not perfect and that is comon sense and known by every player competiting but also by the new players that have experienced online play quite a bit.

[MtnDue]

good stuff

[Zips]

god mrs stop replying. postcount isnt everything or are you so blind? source netcode is not perfect and that is comon sense and known by every player competiting but also by the new players that have experienced online play quite a bit.
Neither is the CS1.6 netcode. The netcode, if rates are properly adjusted, is quite good. No netcode will ever be "perfect" until we're all with 1ms pings across the globe.

[EdoArdO]

hope on the fix of valve of this net-settings.

wanna make css competitive? go for it valve and fix the netcode ;)

[gummerz]

i hope you can prove that as you dont in your test

Your arguement is flawed. The obersvations that dis returned the test results that he did show there is a problem. Whos cares if he didnt test it out under all the different conditions that you have stated.The fact that he is getting these apparent problems are proof enough that the problem exists (plus im sure there are thousands of people using the exact same settings as him, who will be getting the same problems). There should be NO settings which cause a problem with bullet registration and so on.

[JanetReno]

For anyone interested on how the netcode works heres a link to some documentation on the HL1 netcode explained. http://www.resourcecode.de/stuff/clientsideprediction.pdf

Source should be "theoretically the same" procedure.

[tbaussie]

Valve have had this page up since the source engine was released:

http://www.valve-erc.com/srcsdk/general/multiplayer_networking.html

© 2004 Valve Corporation. All rights reserved. Valve, the Valve logo, Half-Life, the Half-Life logo, the Lambda logo, Steam, the Steam logo, Team Fortress, the Team Fortress logo, Opposing Force, Day of Defeat, the Day of Defeat logo, Counter-Strike, the Counter-Strike logo, Source, the Source logo, Hammer and Counter-Strike: Condition Zero are trademarks and/or registered trademarks of Valve Corporation. Microsoft and Visual Studio are trademarks and/or registered trademarks of Microsoft Corporation. All other trademarks are property of their respective owners.

[EdoArdO]

netcode for source is different than the hl1 one (imho).

[disruptor]

Today I've testet the following commands:
cl_smooth 1/0
cl_smoothtime 0.1/1/0.9/0.35
cl_pred_optimize 2/0
cl_interp_all 0/1
cl_interp_npcs 0.0/1
cl_lagcomp_errorcheck 1/0
cl_cmdbackup 2/0/100/101

My result:
They haven't got an effect on the interpolation bug!!!

[Dr.Fly]

Neither is the CS1.6 netcode. The netcode, if rates are properly adjusted, is quite good. No netcode will ever be "perfect" until we're all with 1ms pings across the globe.

True but there is a difference between cs1.6 and cs:s which is noticable. We've all experienced the feeling of "WTF mate?" when your opponent didn't die:cool: .

I'm not saying cs:s isen't playable or anything like that but it's still a long way from the overall performance of 1.6. Now you may likely think or say that it took cs a long time to reach that stage and yes you are right in that but that doesn't mean it has to take cs:s the same amount of time imho. If that would happen valve hasn't learned anything from the past tbh.

In the mean time try to enjoy the game as much as possible:)

[NemeAlamoda]

1.6 Netcode is far from good. Everyone playing that everyday complains of "registry" and "interping". Well, I really do not experience that in Source, even though I play 1.6 every day competitively.

What the Source community needs is to know what the best rates are based upon this study, and then apply them to everyone. If we can get a solid server up with everyone playing on these rates, the netcode should, logically, be better (if not perfect).

[dusK]

im sry but i got to ask... prove it.. link me with comments from people who work from valve who have said that.

even the name says it just CHECKS (in this case checked) for errors. it just displays (displayed) these as debug-info. there really is a mail (i think it was from alfred reynolds) containing this information. i tried to find it, but i wasn`t lucky enough ;D
i`ll continue, but not now, have to go to the driiving-school and rl calls me ;D

[dusK]

1.6 Netcode is far from good. Everyone playing that everyday complains of "registry" and "interping". Well, I really do not experience that in Source, even though I play 1.6 every day competitively.

What the Source community needs is to know what the best rates are based upon this study, and then apply them to everyone. If we can get a solid server up with everyone playing on these rates, the netcode should, logically, be better (if not perfect).

good morning, it`s all about the delay. noone cares about the (good) reg.

[disruptor]

good morning, it`s all about the delay. noone cares about the (good) reg.

Yep thats true. I've heared from several people that there is a delay because of the 56K Modem support. I don't know and I don't really care. We want a net code fix!

[cetris]

Neither is the CS1.6 netcode. The netcode, if rates are properly adjusted, is quite good. No netcode will ever be "perfect" until we're all with 1ms pings across the globe.

Just because your a moderator, doesnt mean you have to defend valve. Sure, 1.6 isnt perfect, but its better than source. The netcode is not quite good if rates are adjusted. Also for this to be true, each and every players rates must be the same to keep the same consistency, which is not a good idea outside lan. But due to the advantages of having consistent, yet bad netcode, most decent serves lock it so you cant change these rates.

Did you even read the OP? Do you even play the game? 1ms isnt even possible (er speed of light), and there are many ways different latencies can be dealt with. The way CS:S does it, is on the right track, just done poorly.

It needs fixing. If anyone disagrees, they either dont know enough about the subject or they have a vested interest in keeping it as it is (i.e. valve not spending any more money).

[MaKauTZ]

MrS you do not have any idea of what you are talking about. The settings that you wanted to be tested do simply not effect the gameplay, I'm really sorry. I'm playing CSS as competitive as disruptor and I can tell you that his results are totally correct and noticeable on every public server lol.

The thing with lagcomp_errorcheck is as following: I do not know if VALVe has posted that that cvar doesnt affect the game anymore, but I do know that some guy (i think it was r99t, not sure tho!) asked alfred from VALVe about it. In alfreds answer he was told that the cvar has no effect anymore.

So, you prolly should change your side and try to get VALVe to fix that bug.

BTW: VALVe has noticed that thread I'm pretty sure (they'd be a bad developer if they wouldnt read on their own board). None cares about them replying... It is all about reading this topic, testing it theirselves and trying to fix it without too many expenditures.

[Apocalyps]

Yeah. Now valve has a change to proof that they really care about CSS.

Let's wait n' see...

[disruptor]

I guess that the interpolation was a little bit fixed or so? At my tests from today I didn't have to shoot 2 Models behind the real model to hit it at lowpingers. Now I have to shoot "only" 1 Model behind the real model. But versus highpingers (50ms) it is still extremly bugie. Hm... still waiting for a real update.

[disruptor]

Yeah. Now valve has a change to proof that they really care about CSS.

Let's wait n' see...

100% agree!!

[ben0]

Nice post. Please fix Valve!

[z0uLess2]

/sticky

I hope in some way valve see this, but I doubt it.

[Zips]

Just because your a moderator, doesnt mean you have to defend valve. Sure, 1.6 isnt perfect, but its better than source. The netcode is not quite good if rates are adjusted. Also for this to be true, each and every players rates must be the same to keep the same consistency, which is not a good idea outside lan. But due to the advantages of having consistent, yet bad netcode, most decent serves lock it so you cant change these rates.

Did you even read the OP? Do you even play the game? 1ms isnt even possible (er speed of light), and there are many ways different latencies can be dealt with. The way CS:S does it, is on the right track, just done poorly.

It needs fixing. If anyone disagrees, they either dont know enough about the subject or they have a vested interest in keeping it as it is (i.e. valve not spending any more money).Yes I read the first post, and I do not agree that there is any significant problem at hand.

It's amazing, whether I'm on wireless DSL or on a campus network connection, I don't have to shoot behind any model in order to hit them. Hell, I hardly tweak my rates either. I tend to set it to the approrpriate settings for a 66-tic server and I don't adjust one way or the other no matter where I play.

The 1ms was a hypotethcial, and beyond that it was said to show that people would only not complain if they had direct links to the server with absolutely no ping. And yes I do play the game.

[nimrod1984]

The problem ist, that Valve dont cares about such a Thread, they needed for example over one year to fix the major SourceTV bugs, how long do u think valve will need to fix this lagcomp bug? Estimated one year or more... They are not Blizzard, which are fast in making good updates. Every time Valve comes out with a new update, they fix some bugs, that were made by the previous update. They use the great community as big beta test for every single update. But thats business... making games for the public, where the standard player plays some times the game and dont cares about srcTV, lagcomp or bugs...

I sadly think, that no co-worker from Valve will answer on this well done Thread.

But maybe they hear the voice of the community, when this one will be sticky :P

@ Zips:
66-tic server ? wtf? there u can still play random, for a normal player u dont see the problem so clear, like one guy who plays the game 6 hours a day and calls himself a "pro".
Besides i think you should try to play on an 100-tic server, so you will maybe better see what disruptor means. Maybe you should look the short movies, which disi made. Then you see the problem. And as last point, as moderator you are not qualified to give a adequate answer, because i think you are even a random player, who dont plays 6 hours a day. For normals player the differnece is not easy to see, for those ones which play more, you see more what disruptor means ;) (sorry 4 my bad english)

So guys keep on supporting this thread.

[DevgruSeal]

I say it should be stickied as well..

Perhaps take out the compensation for these..56kers..Not many games (Q4 for instance) support 56kers...They'll get nothing but problems, and so will others playing amongst them...

[Scikar]

So, what exactly does the OP expect Valve to do? Magically fix every server so the ping over the internet is as good as a LAN?

It's not hard. If you have an excellent connection (i.e. LAN) then disable interpolation. If you have interpolation disabled then disable lag compensation as well to ensure you still aim at the model. If you are not playing on a LAN then disabling interpolation may produce jerky results, so you must enable interpolation. Since you have interpolation enabled you need to enable lag compensation so that you still aim at the model. Interpolation carries with it the penalty that your system is waiting a few fractions of a second for data to interpolate, which increases your overall latency, so it's a tradeoff.

Valve can't lower your ping to an internet server, and they can't magically send data from the future to allow you to interpolate player movement without having to wait cl_interp seconds first.

[Barelds_TUF]

Yes I read the first post, and I do not agree that there is any significant problem at hand.

It's amazing, whether I'm on wireless DSL or on a campus network connection, I don't have to shoot behind any model in order to hit them.

Obviously you don't see a problem, you managed to fail understanding the original post.

[harrypalmer]

disruptor, i'm assuming that you use a autoexec.cfg file to run your settings. I was just curious what other settings you have enabled and was wondering if you could possibly post it so I could take a look. Cheers! :)

[Zips]

Obviously you don't see a problem, you managed to fail understanding the original post.
-sigh-

Fine, I'll bite. I do understand the original post, but please, enlighten me (again).

[disruptor]

The problem ist, that Valve dont cares about such a Thread, they needed for example over one year to fix the major SourceTV bugs, how long do u think valve will need to fix this lagcomp bug? Estimated one year or more... They are not Blizzard, which are fast in making good updates. Every time Valve comes out with a new update, they fix some bugs, that were made by the previous update. They use the great community as big beta test for every single update. But thats business... making games for the public, where the standard player plays some times the game and dont cares about srcTV, lagcomp or bugs...

I sadly think, that no co-worker from Valve will answer on this well done Thread.

But maybe they hear the voice of the community, when this one will be sticky :P

@ Zips:
66-tic server ? wtf? there u can still play random, for a normal player u dont see the problem so clear, like one guy who plays the game 6 hours a day and calls himself a "pro".
Besides i think you should try to play on an 100-tic server, so you will maybe better see what disruptor means. Maybe you should look the short movies, which disi made. Then you see the problem. And as last point, as moderator you are not qualified to give a adequate answer, because i think you are even a random player, who dont plays 6 hours a day. For normals player the differnece is not easy to see, for those ones which play more, you see more what disruptor means ;) (sorry 4 my bad english)

So guys keep on supporting this thread.

That's it.

[Zips]

That's it.Oh, right... Because I'm a mod and don't play 6 hours a day like a "pro" I'm not allowed to give an accurate representation of my personal experiences? I play on plenty of servers from ~30tic to ~100 tic. But hey, I'm just supposed to be a biased mod, right? Right (http://www.csnation.net/index.php). :rolleyes:

LAN gameplay is also not really indicitive of online gameplay. You can't have the videos account for much at all.

[Scikar]

I still haven't seen what the actual bug is. Lag compensation... compensates for lag, including that caused by interpolation. Interpolation... interpolates player positions at the cost of adding the interpolate time to your overall latency. Both of these features are working exactly as intended, and if you don't like them you can easily adjust them (cl_interp) or disable them completely, but if you're not on a LAN then you'll most likely get problems.

[o0paradox0o]

and now.....


correct me if i'm not mistaken....

but this applies to HL2 : DM as well?

because everyone in my clan has noticed the same exact issues... ever since the patch valve issued that messed up the accuracy of the weapons.. ( right before the fios championship) and some things still arent back to normal.. ( after subsequent patch releases to fix that issue )

people complain about the grav gun being inconsistant and not as accurate as previously...


many good friends and dm'ers were lost during that time..
many people say that the muliplayer has basically gone to the dogs at this point...
and the dm community over-all has definately slowed down..

I dont think it's that valve cant support the issues.. I just dont think they are approaching multi-player with the same approch as all the first person stuff.... or all the new games they are suddenly selling..


so my question is:

what is being done about this.? or at least what is slated to be done?


valve?

-[KBH] o0paradox0o
{Clan General Manager}

[Nightmare85]

I personally played on many servers, too.
Even with 100 tic I had problems.
My net settings were also fine (I tried plenty of settings).
The netcode of CS 1.6 and many other games is better than the source netcode. Sure I'm not a proof.
But I play this game for a long time.
It is so typical that CSS on Internet is retarding (translation of "verzögernd" - altavista).
I see the enemy, run around the corner and then I'm dead.
Just play with the death beam of mani admin.
It is so easy to see this!

I think there are some people here who can't or don't want accept the truth!!!

Greets

[disruptor]

@Nightmare85 : Yeah that's true...!
@Zips: Your personal experiences are maybe from your feeling, but here are the results of my tests. I don't trust people saying something without serious tests. I've tested it online, today (see post #201)!

[tefan]

we need the fix! and a poll!!!

[Que]

People can 'say' anything they want. Until they test it and have some fact to back it up, it mean nothing.

[Kam1kaz3]

Nah...
Not gonna happen, becose as it was stated before :
"its not a bug, its a feature " x_X

Besides they are now busy with much more important things then competitive gameplay, like inventing new dynamic weapon price system & other important, top priority stuff...

Well at least they've finally fixed the POV "feature".

[Deas]

Nah...
Not gonna happen, becose as it was stated before :
"its not a bug, its a feature " x_X

Besides they are now busy with much more important things then competitive gameplay, like inventing new dynamic weapon price system & other important, top priority stuff...

Well at least they've finally fixed the POV "feature".

Sad, but true. :(

[disruptor]

Don't hope so!

[Deas]

Well Disruptor, you gotta realize that Valve is a company. And a company wants to make money. And as we all own CS:Source and don't have to pay a monthly fee, Valve is not able to make any more money with us. That's why they're not supporting it - or at least not supporting it the way we'd like.

[MtnDue]

Well Disruptor, you gotta realize that Valve is a company. And a company wants to make money. And as we all own CS:Source and don't have to pay a monthly fee, Valve is not able to make any more money with us. That's why they're not supporting it - or at least not supporting it the way we'd like.

Please check the News page and tell me Valve isn't supporting CS:S

[ShinSource]

fix interpolate 0 pls valve.

[mikeydeee]

cl_interpolate 1; cl_lagcompensation 1
is great, just your understanding of netcode/lagcompensation is poor...

Although I do agree that it would be nice if players could choose to play with cl_interpolate 0, without being awarded their extra 'exploit' shots

[Barelds_TUF]

cl_interpolate 1; cl_lagcompensation 1
is great, just your understanding of netcode/lagcompensation is poor...

Although I do agree that it would be nice if players could choose to play with cl_interpolate 0, without being awarded their extra 'exploit' shots

cl_interpolate 1; cl_lagcompensation 1
Does indeed provide good hitregistration, however is by no means ideal. Any delay in visuals (as imposed by latency and interpolation) is a "bad" thing, the less visual delay, the higher the maximum competitive potential.

I don't think the original thread creator disagrees that, for online, cl_interpolate 1 isn't exactly "terrible".

[real-juice]

This is really an old bug. Drax reported it in his comprehensive Source bug list (http://www24.brinkster.com/draxus99/source/) a long time ago.

This isn't just a LAN issue, on LANs it would be easy to play with interpolate 0 lagcomp 0, but its also an issue of competitive online gaming.

Back when the "should we enforce interpolate 1" debate was at its worst, and then later trumphed through by brits due to their horrible Internet infrastructure, many good players went back to CS 1.6.

I do not know any person with Internet connections slower than 256 (up)/1024 (down) kbit. More and more people have real broadband (10mbit +) and players using ISDN and 56K are virtually non-existant. There is no need to optimize netcode for these guys. I'm sure if Valve gathered new statistics today they would have many less modemusers than 1 year ago.

Drax speaks at this issue as a delay issue. This delay is in the client, but also a product of the server unlag netcode in regards to the hitbox. Simply put. interpolate 0 removes this client delay when gathering frames so that it can draw the average/smoothed frames. Interpolate 1 enforces this delay which after measurements add a delay close to 90-100ms. This is a very severe disadvantage/advantage as the quickest gamers' reaction times fall very close to 100ms. This delay needs to get limited.

Lagcompensation exist on both client and server. It is not very common to play competitive matches above 55ms ping, though it does happen occasionally. Competitive netcode should be optimizated for the optimal situations, not the sub-optimal situations it does for today.

I suggest Valve create a couple more cvars, one serverside i.e. sv_force_competitive_netcode 1|0 and on the clientside cl_use_competitive_netcode 1|0 (which could for instance use competitve code reguardless the server settings). This should ofcourse also enforce rate settings between 18000-30000 and cmdrate/updaterates in the range 80-101.

I realise I do not know too much of how Valves implementation of the netcode is, but why not opensource it or even keep copyrights and release the source code so that people can come forth with qualified analysis of the problems?

Q4 has excellent netcode in comparison to the HL2:Source engine, I think Valve needs to ask themselves if /they/ are competitive instead of forfeiting this old and very severe and limiting bug.

Sorry for the bad english, I'm a tad hung over!

[cetris]

Yes I read the first post, and I do not agree that there is any significant problem at hand.

It's amazing, whether I'm on wireless DSL or on a campus network connection, I don't have to shoot behind any model in order to hit them. Hell, I hardly tweak my rates either. I tend to set it to the approrpriate settings for a 66-tic server and I don't adjust one way or the other no matter where I play.

The 1ms was a hypotethcial, and beyond that it was said to show that people would only not complain if they had direct links to the server with absolutely no ping. And yes I do play the game.

You must have a pretty damn good wireless connection not to notice loss and choke.
What net settings do you use and what do the servers you play on use and how far are you away from these servers in terms of ping? It sounds like you are in the (extemely rare) enviable position of playing on servers that have the minimum of error between hitboxes and models (see OP) and are close enough to that server to take advantage of it (i.e. close enough to be lan). Either that, or you are terrible and cant tell the difference between good and bad.

Anyway, hopefully valve arent that silly and fix it.

[sakkez]

this is awesome thread and needs stickied. i think valve should fix the net-code finally...and css would get more ppl to play it as it wouldnt have so much problems..competetive playing in source is gonna rise and go up if valve fix's it..


VALVE PLS FIX IT !!!!!! WE CSS PLAYER'S NEED IT...

*/gWf^
and we need it cuz 1.6 players who have paid 15$ from 1.6 and we who play css have paid 30-50$ and 1.6 has good net-code compared to cs:s

[Gideon2k]

Yeah agree with everything disruptor said, he makes a good point

[disruptor]

The following video shows the same effect:

http://momo.coxcomb-worx.de/disi/hitbox_vid_interpolate_delay.wmv

[Barelds_TUF]

I suggest Valve create a couple more cvars, one serverside i.e. sv_force_competitive_netcode 1|0 and on the clientside cl_use_competitive_netcode 1|0 (which could for instance use competitve code reguardless the server settings). This should ofcourse also enforce rate settings between 18000-30000 and cmdrate/updaterates in the range 80-101.

I realise I do not know too much of how Valves implementation of the netcode is, but why not opensource it or even keep copyrights and release the source code so that people can come forth with qualified analysis of the problems?

Q4 has excellent netcode in comparison to the HL2:Source engine, I think Valve needs to ask themselves if /they/ are competitive instead of forfeiting this old and very severe and limiting bug.

Sorry for the bad english, I'm a tad hung over!

Are you serious? Wow. If you want an improved situation, atleast suggest something even remotely reasonable.:eek:

[Nightmare85]

The situation, which is shown in the 18th second of the video, should be known for many gamers!
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6513/cssnetcodeut9.jpg

Greets

[Tristan8969]

im your guy, im using a dsl with 512ko download 128 upload, so think @ myself plz but I want four things
****net code fix
***bug fix as shadow trhough wall, weapons through wall
** VaC 3 : scanning all .exe all textures, all models
* why server are still using tickrate 100 and not 200 or 300 ?

[sakkez]

im your guy, im using a dsl with 512ko download 128 upload, so think @ myself plz but I want four things
****net code fix
***bug fix as shadow trhough wall, weapons through wall
** VaC 3 : scanning all .exe all textures, all models
* why server are still using tickrate 100 and not 200 or 300 ?

*100% agreed* these things need fixing

[Zefar]

The following video shows the same effect:

http://momo.coxcomb-worx.de/disi/hitbox_vid_interpolate_delay.wmv

But is it proven that the guy who run out from the box can kill the guy before he can do anything about it? :/

Just give both players 1 HP and take the shottie.

The first player will shoot when he's fully out and the other player should shoot when he spots him.

If the Player 2 gets the kill first you don't need to worry about the delay since it will add up in the server registre.

Please prove that the player who run out behind the box got bigger chance of killing the other.

Also as Zips said, Perfect Netcode will not exist untill people got 1ms ping across Globe.

[dave3_pwnz]

hmm.. can someone explain me why this netcode is so complicated? why are other games normal? why is css "special"?

[DevgruSeal]

Also as Zips said, Perfect Netcode will not exist untill people got 1ms ping across Globe.

However, near-perfect netcode can exist. Right. Now.

[Zefar]

hmm.. can someone explain me why this netcode is so complicated? why are other games normal? why is css "special"?

I belive it's because so that we don't need to shoot "infront" of players or behind them. Ever played a game like Quake 3 on the internet? :/ Those games use an system where the shot will come depending on how much ping you have after you clicked the mouse buttom. CSS is instant and it feels like it when you play it. Imo far better than that Quake 3 netcode.

However, near-perfect netcode can exist. Right. Now.

Not as long as people got bad computers/Ban connection/Are far away from you. Sorry but we will just have to wait till everyone upgrades before we can have near perfection hit reg. Imo it's pretty darn good and I play on 100 tickrate and when I have over 100 FPS it all just goes so smooth.

Anyway I still wanna know know if the player who comes out from the box can kill the guy before he can kill you.

[GIft3d]

Now the question is will Valve do anything about it, cause pretty much, you got everything else covered.

My rates and inconsistent hitboxes very between servers and it just sucks.

[disruptor]

Hopefully the next CS:S Update will tell us more...

[disruptor]

* why server are still using tickrate 100 and not 200 or 300 ?

I'm going to test it.

[maxwell-cs]

Hopefully the next CS:S Update will tell us more...

i dont think valve reacts that fast, but a reaction from valve would be nice (or was there one and i missed it? :>)

[MaKauTZ]

Guess there was none.

[Zefar]

But is it proven that the guy who run out from the box can kill the guy before he can do anything about it? :/

Just give both players 1 HP and take the shottie.

The first player will shoot when he's fully out and the other player should shoot when he spots him.

If the Player 2 gets the kill first you don't need to worry about the delay since it will add up in the server registre.

Please prove that the player who run out behind the box got bigger chance of killing the other.

Also as Zips said, Perfect Netcode will not exist untill people got 1ms ping across Globe.

disruptor can you test that to?

[killgor]

What a legend....doing all that testing etc. All I have to say is take that all you motherXXXXing XXXXs on this forum who have continualy tried to deny this issue exists and tried to bag me out whenever I have posted about it.

I have posted about this issue a number of times on this forum and each time i just got a pack of [color="#FF66FF"]♥[/color][color="#FF66FF"]♥[/color][color="#FF66FF"]♥[/color][color="#FF66FF"]♥[/color][color="#FF66FF"]♥[/color][color="#FF66FF"]♥[/color][color="#FF66FF"]♥[/color][color="#FF66FF"]♥[/color]s from around here come in and flame the thread and try and make up that I was just crap at CSS. So eat XXXX all you XXXXing losers!

My guess though would be that valve will just continue to ignore this issue.

[Nightmare85]

The following video shows the same effect:

http://momo.coxcomb-worx.de/disi/hitbox_vid_interpolate_delay.wmv

...Anyway I still wanna know know if the player who comes out from the box can kill the guy before he can kill you.

@disruptor:
Just create the same movie like this, but with shooting.
An updated version of the picture:
http://img271.imageshack.us/img271/6291/cssnetcodeel8.jpg

My suggestion: Make 2 versions:
1: Player 2, who comes out from the box, shoots the other.
2: Player 1 shoots Player 2, when he wants to get in cover (like in the picture).
So it should be better to see.
And can you use the Mani Admin Plugin Death Beam???

Greets

[PALGUN]

PLS FIX VALVE, THX.

[Tango2k4]

As far as my understanding of all this goes, there's no way you can really *fix* this. The problems disruptor points out lie in the nature of the system, since without the interpolation delay the entire *interpolation* routine itself wouldn't really be possible. I hope you get what I mean.

Back when I used to play tacops there was a mod that came out called "unlag", also trying to introduce lag-interp to the game. Players quickly realized that while being able to aim directly *on* the model was kinda cool, the interpolation caused more problems than it actually solved. So people went back to "leading" their targets. This is of course not all that good for people on modems and such, but hey, it's not like we're living in a fair world and if you looked at the competitive side of TO, interp was just a no-go.Why? Well because it created exactly the problems disruptor described, creating an unbearable situation in a competitive environment.

The only way you can *fix* this in CS:S (as far is I'm concerned) is either disable the system completely so that your connection is the number one factor when it comes to problems with lag, or crank up the interpolation settings. This however, is really only an option on LAN servers due to the low latency required, and even *if* you'd do it, the underlying problem will never go away.

[cetris]

As far as my understanding of all this goes, there's no way you can really *fix* this. The problems disruptor points out lie in the nature of the system, since without the interpolation delay the entire *interpolation* routine itself wouldn't really be possible. I hope you get what I mean.


Your understanding is wrong. The same way that the people who say it can not be fixed due to latency >1 ms are also wrong. It can be fixed.