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View Full Version : Is this Valve's Example of Dumbing Down Shooters?


TTU VAPOR
11-18-2008, 09:06 AM
I'm obviously new to these forums, and I believe I had an old account but I can't remember what it is, so I had to sign up for a new one today. I've played Valve's games since HL, and then when the modders made CS...I instantly fell in love with that game...then going on to HL Opposing Force, Blue Shift, Day of Defeat, etc... I even LOVED that Wanted game, ya know...the ol wild west shooter that had chunks of body pieces when you blew someone up with the dynamite...good times.

When I downloaded the L4D demo on the 360 I was really shocked by the intro movie...it was so well put together...I could literally imagine it being a full-length film...much better than most of the zombie movies I've seen in the past 10 years.

But what I was really shocked by was when the game actually started. As soon as I picked up the Uzi, I fired away wanting to see what the gunplay was like and go figure that it is completely garbage. Why even bother with having a blooming crosshair when it does nothing in terms of actual bloom to the bullets you're firing?

Where's the recoil? Where's the vertical lift on the weapons? Time and time again all I ever see these days are dumbed down shooters being made for the masses...and why?? Why this shift in shooters in making them so simplistic that people's 5 year old kids could pick up the controllers and play just as good as someone who's 20?

I'm really disgusted by this game that it didn't feature the same gunplay as counter-strike. Honestly...why didn't it?

And please do not tell me that the zombies are moving so fast in this game that if the guns had counter-strike-eque properties that the game wouldn't be fun...

It would make the game challenging instead of being a hold down the trigger spamfest and press the reload key every now and then to reload.

I got bored by this game...and I don't understand the whole hoopla about it.

Typical dumbed down shooter in my opinion.

Anyone else share these thoughts or have any explanations as to why this was designed this way? Keep in mind, I'm not looking for the next competitive shooter with L4D...I'm simply speaking in terms of video game design.

Gene
11-18-2008, 09:08 AM
I don't know about 360 but there is definitely a lot of recoil on PC...

polka
11-18-2008, 09:11 AM
yup theres recoil on the pc.

if there no recoil on the 360 then maybe they lowered/removed it to work better with gamepads?

Zips
11-18-2008, 09:13 AM
It doesn't have the same gun play as CS because it's not Counter-Strike. And really, if you believe that CS is in any way realistic, I urge you to try something like ArmA or OpFor.

Drew The Pirate
11-18-2008, 09:13 AM
Game was not designed to be competitive like Counter-Strike.

Was designed to be fun.

TTU VAPOR
11-18-2008, 09:13 AM
Show me some links of the guns on the PC version...perhaps youtube?

BTW...thanks for those calling me an idiot because I disagree with the masses on this game...real pros there lemme tell ya.

aznxk3vi17
11-18-2008, 09:13 AM
If you want some realist junkie game go back to counterstrike. This is obviously not the game for someone as hopelessly closed minded as you.

realist
counterstrike

lol


Not that I agree with OP, but I just had to make that clear.

Yakuzathug
11-18-2008, 09:13 AM
I'd say it's because it's being released on consoles too, which is where the dumbing down comes into play. Still a great game in my opinion, but yes, the shooting is alot less dynamic.

NAMKCOR
11-18-2008, 09:14 AM
long story short, if you don't like the style of the game, then you won't like it. It's supposed to be more arcade style. That being said, sorry you don't enjoy it, but this thread is pointless.

GIGAR
11-18-2008, 09:14 AM
This game is abselutely AWESOME.
In every possible (and even some impossible) way(s).

TTU VAPOR
11-18-2008, 09:14 AM
Game was not designed to be competitive like Counter-Strike.

Was designed to be fun.

What's your idea of fun in a video game? If the game is a shooter...should the shooting be somewhat challenging instead of just calling for the player to hold down the trigger and spam spam spam???

Scorpion
11-18-2008, 09:14 AM
lol CSS=Realism? HAHA i love CSS but the game isnt realistic at all.

left4right
11-18-2008, 09:15 AM
So the game is bad because your gun doesn't recoil?
Op = fail

ragenrok
11-18-2008, 09:16 AM
sorry OP, this is an arcade type shooter. mabey you never played one (also doesn't help your playing on the xbox)

once you realize this is a arcade shooter and not a typical FPS, and play it on the PC you'll understand.

Mabey arcade shooters just arn't your style.

Aoi
11-18-2008, 09:17 AM
I'm obviously new to these forums, and I believe I had an old account but I can't remember what it is, so I had to sign up for a new one today. I've played Valve's games since HL, and then when the modders made CS...I instantly fell in love with that game...then going on to HL Opposing Force, Blue Shift, Day of Defeat, etc... I even LOVED that Wanted game, ya know...the ol wild west shooter that had chunks of body pieces when you blew someone up with the dynamite...good times.

When I downloaded the L4D demo on the 360 I was really shocked by the intro movie...it was so well put together...I could literally imagine it being a full-length film...much better than most of the zombie movies I've seen in the past 10 years.

But what I was really shocked by was when the game actually started. As soon as I picked up the Uzi, I fired away wanting to see what the gunplay was like and go figure that it is completely garbage. Why even bother with having a blooming crosshair when it does nothing in terms of actual bloom to the bullets you're firing?

Where's the recoil? Where's the vertical lift on the weapons? Time and time again all I ever see these days are dumbed down shooters being made for the masses...and why?? Why this shift in shooters in making them so simplistic that people's 5 year old kids could pick up the controllers and play just as good as someone who's 20?

I'm really disgusted by this game that it didn't feature the same gunplay as counter-strike. Honestly...why didn't it?

And please do not tell me that the zombies are moving so fast in this game that if the guns had counter-strike-eque properties that the game wouldn't be fun...

It would make the game challenging instead of being a hold down the trigger spamfest and press the reload key every now and then to reload.

I got bored by this game...and I don't understand the whole hoopla about it.

Typical dumbed down shooter in my opinion.

Anyone else share these thoughts or have any explanations as to why this was designed this way? Keep in mind, I'm not looking for the next competitive shooter with L4D...I'm simply speaking in terms of video game design.

Quite the opposite. L4D actually requires a great deal more forethought than most other shooters out there, and requires you to continually be cognizant of your three-dimensional surroundings and your teammates to a degree that is highly unusual among first-person shooters.

What it doesn't require a great degree of is twitch skills.

You appear to simply prefer a different type of game. Which is fine. But suggesting that L4D is "dumb" because it isn't what you're looking for is a bit silly.

Die_Angel
11-18-2008, 09:17 AM
It isn't about dumbing down it's about making a game FUN, ENJOYABLE, and ACCESSIBLE.

Games that are reserved to a tiny elite of old fps players do not sell.

Nethlem
11-18-2008, 09:18 AM
You are playing a FPS game on a xbox with a joypad and complain about "dumped down shooters"?


......




.............



...........................



Seriously? And the dynamic crosshair has impact, you shoot more accurate if you crouch down and don't move and if you fire in burst. But as the shooter expert you are obviously are you should have noticed that. Oh no you didn't... maybe maybe because you have no clue what you are talking about?

CrowbarSka
11-18-2008, 09:19 AM
You answered your own question.

Why this shift in shooters in making them so simplistic that people's 5 year old kids could pick up the controllers and play just as good as someone who's 20?

More people can play it = more people can buy it = more money for Valve. Don't forget it's a business they're running, albeit an entertainment one. I do share your concerns though sometimes, although I wouldn't exactly call myself a hardcore shooter fan. I can't play CS to save my life.

lokis222
11-18-2008, 09:19 AM
long story short, if you don't like the style of the game, then you won't like it. It's supposed to be more arcade style. That being said, sorry you don't enjoy it, but this thread is pointless.

agreed. LFD's demo was less than spectacular but I was completely blown away by the hoards of zombies and the difficulty that i had playing the outdoor mission. I have played most of the same games as the OPer but I think this is a game you have to take as unique to itself.

Mystic Theurge
11-18-2008, 09:20 AM
This guy is a ♥♥♥♥ing troll

yet another L4D fanboy. Stay a little critical to the things you play. BTW, uzi really feels strange without the recoil. You just press M1 and spam bullets.

People are saying L4D expert is too easy, then make it more difficult to shoot for them.

Koruptdeath
11-18-2008, 09:20 AM
lol


Not that I agree with OP, but I just had to make that clear.

Yeah I know, I meant more of in a relative sense.

TTU VAPOR
11-18-2008, 09:22 AM
Quite the opposite. L4D actually requires a great deal more forethought than most other shooters out there, and requires you to continually be cognizant of your three-dimensional surroundings and your teammates to a degree that is highly unusual among first-person shooters.

What it doesn't require a great degree of is twitch skills.

You appear to simply prefer a different type of game. Which is fine. But suggesting that L4D is "dumb" because it isn't what you're looking for is a bit silly.

I still don't see it. I played the game on Expert mode, the only difference between the Expert and easier modes is that the Zombies inflict more damage upon you...that's it, everything else remains the same.

I know what arcade shooters are but your CODs, and even your CS are all arcade-style shooters. CS has a fabricated recoil on the weapons that isn't anywhere near realism, but the fabricated recoil is what makes the game challenging and fun.

My question is, why are there no recoils on the weapons in L4D? Simply saying that it's because the game is an arcade shooter....are you implying that anything that is labeled arcade = non-challenging shooting mechanics?

nagolxela
11-18-2008, 09:24 AM
Valve releases a great game and people start complaining....geez

MulleDK19
11-18-2008, 09:24 AM
It's a console.... It's ♥♥♥♥...

Of course, they remove recoil, just so console players will think they aim great...

The PC version is best. Heck, you can't even see your own body on the xbox 360.

MulleDK19
11-18-2008, 09:26 AM
I still don't see it. I played the game on Expert mode, the only difference between the Expert and easier modes is that the Zombies inflict more damage upon you...that's it, everything else remains the same.

I know what arcade shooters are but your CODs, and even your CS are all arcade-style shooters. CS has a fabricated recoil on the weapons that isn't anywhere near realism, but the fabricated recoil is what makes the game challenging and fun.

My question is, why are there no recoils on the weapons in L4D? Simply saying that it's because the game is an arcade shooter....are you implying that anything that is labeled arcade = non-challenging shooting mechanics?

Either your game didn't know you changed difficulty, or it's because you play on a console, cause the PC version definetly gets harder.. Not just increased damage.

Nethlem
11-18-2008, 09:26 AM
My question is, why are there no recoils on the weapons in L4D? Simply saying that it's because the game is an arcade shooter....are you implying that anything that is labeled arcade = non-challenging shooting mechanics?

Read what the people are writing or even better: Play the game...

Try sniping infected from range with a pistol when you are running around.

Now crouch and don't move and try the same again.



And than please come again here and complain that weapon behavior is too arcarde like. It's exactly the same as in counter strike the difference is that infected die faster as people in counter strike.

TTU VAPOR
11-18-2008, 09:26 AM
You answered your own question.



More people can play it = more people can buy it = more money for Valve. Don't forget it's a business they're running, albeit an entertainment one. I do share your concerns though sometimes, although I wouldn't exactly call myself a hardcore shooter fan. I can't play CS to save my life.

So are you basically saying that older gamers have to get shafted because Valve wants 5 year olds to be able to pick up a controller and play L4D with their daddys? It's a mature rated game and if any families out there allow their 12 and unders to play this game...then they have some serious problems...but that's a whole separate issue.

Team Fortress 2 is an arcade-style shooter and its weapons had more challenge in them than L4D's. Like I said earlier, there's obviously something going on behind the scenes with Valve and I'd really like to know why Valve is doing what every other AAA dev out there has been doing for the past 5 years...Bungie, Dice/EA, Infinity Ward, Ubisoft, etc...

Next thing you know, Id Software will be dumbing down Doom 4 and Rage in order to appeal to 5 year olds.

lokis222
11-18-2008, 09:27 AM
I know what arcade shooters are but your CODs, and even your CS are all arcade-style shooters. CS has a fabricated recoil on the weapons that isn't anywhere near realism, but the fabricated recoil is what makes the game challenging and fun.

My question is, why are there no recoils on the weapons in L4D? Simply saying that it's because the game is an arcade shooter....are you implying that anything that is labeled arcade = non-challenging shooting mechanics?

You are obviously much better at this game than I am. I found expert challenging and fun. Personally, I never noticed the lack of a recoil but I stuck to shotguns.

The one think I would add to this is that the only thing missing in game in my opinion is the ablility to cut off my hand and strap on a chainsaw.

MrChris
11-18-2008, 09:27 AM
its not designed around CS, not every game has to immitate it

and CS isn't exactly realistic, for one, jumping around a corner a firing an awp, it doesnt dislocate your shoulder or blow legs off

there is always a tug of war battle between realism and gameplay, depending on what kind of game design you are going for, sometimes one is favoured above the other

and I thought the recoil in L4D was fine tbh

Lecoste
11-18-2008, 09:30 AM
TTU VAPOR


ur a moron man. a simple ' i dont like the no/low recoil on weapons, could this be implemented using console commands or modded version?'

would have gotten u FAR more possitive replies.
ur attitude just sucks, adios.

Aoi
11-18-2008, 09:31 AM
I still don't see it. I played the game on Expert mode, the only difference between the Expert and easier modes is that the Zombies inflict more damage upon you...that's it, everything else remains the same.

I know what arcade shooters are but your CODs, and even your CS are all arcade-style shooters. CS has a fabricated recoil on the weapons that isn't anywhere near realism, but the fabricated recoil is what makes the game challenging and fun.

My question is, why are there no recoils on the weapons in L4D? Simply saying that it's because the game is an arcade shooter....are you implying that anything that is labeled arcade = non-challenging shooting mechanics?

I'm not sure increased recoil would have much effect on gameplay. Most shots tend to be taken either from relatively close, or at longer ranges against stationary targets.

Regarding difficulty, yes, the only immediately-perceivable difference is that you can get taken down faster. (I seem to recall reading that boss zombies would spawn more frequently, or you could have two Tanks simultaneously on expert). Is your point that that is somehow a less valid way of ramping up difficulty, and accordingly the need to act strategically, than doubling the number of hordes would be?

TTU VAPOR
11-18-2008, 09:32 AM
its not designed around CS, not every game has to immitate it

and CS isn't exactly realistic, for one, jumping around a corner a firing an awp, it doesnt dislocate your shoulder or blow legs off

there is always a tug of war battle between realism and gameplay, depending on what kind of game design you are going for, sometimes one is favoured above the other

and I thought the recoil in L4D was fine tbh


I don't mean to imply that everything needs to be = to CS, but in terms of gunplay (keep note people, I'm talking about the 360, and please, to the PC guys, relax...I have a PC too, I just can't afford to update it to be up to today's standards) and perhaps people are right in this thread, perhaps the 360 console version was dumbed down intentionally because they thought console gamers were stupid or something.

Honestly, if that's the case, I'm really sick and tired of that crap because consoles dont need to be dumbed down. Heck...putting the 180 degree turn button on the controller was bad enough in my opinion.

Nethlem
11-18-2008, 09:33 AM
Next thing you know, Id Software will be dumbing down Doom 4 and Rage in order to appeal to 5 year olds.

Yes because doom games allways had so much weapons with recoil or weapons that got inaccurate while moving :rolleyes:

Troll away it's getting too obvious..

TTU VAPOR
11-18-2008, 09:34 AM
TTU VAPOR


ur a moron man. a simple ' i dont like the no/low recoil on weapons, could this be implemented using console commands or modded version?'

would have gotten u FAR more possitive replies.
ur attitude just sucks, adios.

I'm talking about the Xbox 360 version my friend. Not everyone is playing the PC version.

Nahual
11-18-2008, 09:37 AM
Playing a FPS (any FPS) with a controller is dumbing the experience down in an on itself (yes, i went there), so i don't know what you're babbling about.

N3oN667
11-18-2008, 09:37 AM
The people that made TF2 Helped make it. It's designed to be fun, not realistic, and not agrivating (CSS)

Wookie1209
11-18-2008, 09:38 AM
Well the 360 isn't the perfect platform for a shooter. The controls can be clunky, so my guess is that valve had to dumb them down a little on the 360 so more people could play. The computer is always going to be the best system for a shooter cause it allows far greater precision, so valve made it harder for the pc.

finkypoo
11-18-2008, 09:41 AM
Wah. I played 2 minutes of the game on a crappy gamepad and then i came here to spend 10 minutes typing out my rant. Wah Wah Wah

Te 8
11-18-2008, 09:43 AM
Gameplay > realism

I've played plenty of first person shooters where the weapons didn't have recoil, and they were some of the most fun. I don't like CSS. You don't like this game. Fair enough. I also list different TV shows to some of my friends.

TexaShootah
11-18-2008, 09:45 AM
You fail at 2 distinct things that make you an absolute tool.

1. You don't know what competitive gaming is.
2. You don't know what fun is.


This game isn't an e-sport, and this game is HELLA fun.

THE Nakedgun
11-18-2008, 09:45 AM
Is this Valve's Example of Dumbing Down Shooters?
I always thouight CS was.

L4D is more a fun game you can play after the pub swith your mates, does the split screen work still?

bloodypalace
11-18-2008, 09:46 AM
UZI had no recoil or vertical lift? well, if you had used an UZI you would have known that UZI has almost no recoil! and if you happened to use any other gun you would have also known that guns actually hit where you aim! CS's cone of fire and recoil are the only unrealistic things here! Now go back to cs.

OiScout
11-18-2008, 09:46 AM
When I playing with scrubs, I'm GLAD there's not too much bullet deviation and climb. Otherwise I would have died like 30 times already.

But at the same time, I sometimes wish there would be more deviation. Then I remember back to my BF2/PR days ... and deviation got ugly.

polka
11-18-2008, 09:47 AM
wow these forums are so aggressive nowdays.
hes voicing an opinion, as he is entitled to, theres no reason to start namecalling like a bunch of kids.

grow up people...

kraz
11-18-2008, 09:50 AM
Aren't consoles more "casual" in general? Gameplay tends to be easier in order to accommodate gamepad controls. Which is not bad, mind you, but it's hard to demand pr0 gaming difficulty from a console game, where turning can last for over a second. You'd be dead in no time.

Nixondy
11-18-2008, 09:52 AM
I didn't even notice the recoil on PC. I like some aspects of Zombie panic a bit more than L4D (scarce ammo, more realistic gunfire, less "user-friendly" stuff (like those blue outlines around friendlies), but if I want realistic, I play Zombie panic. L4D concentrates more on the fun side.

Jaded
11-18-2008, 09:54 AM
Unoriginal, shallow, repetitive, generally dull and ultimately very short.

I'd say 'dumbed down' would fit in there somewhere :rolleyes:

RandomSanity
11-18-2008, 09:55 AM
They lowered it for 360 because everyone knows you wouldn't be able to last 10 minutes on a console otherwise, they're just not made for shooters.. thus the lack of recoil and auto aim feature.

Nixondy
11-18-2008, 09:56 AM
"Unoriginal, shallow, repetitive, generally dull and ultimately very short.

I'd say 'dumbed down' would fit in there somewhere"

Ooooh, dude, get ready to burn :P. Maybe you're right, but I don't know about "unoriginal". There haven't been many co-op zombie apocalypse FPS games as far as I know...

thrillhouse
11-18-2008, 09:58 AM
The main question on this thread before the trolls and fanboys started bickering was "why doesn't L4D include recoil?"

I'll admit the weapon mechanics in the game are a bit lacking, but Valve didn't sit down and make an game with sweet weapon mechanics. They sat down and made a completely unique multiplayer FPS.

TTU VAPOR, Im guessing your just playing the demo on your 360? Have you played the multiplayer? Because the multiplayer is the meat and potatoes of this game. Sell your 360 and buy a PC because CONSOLES ARE FOR FIVE YEAR OLDS.

I was a bit skeptic with the demo, I don't really thing it highlights the massive awesomeness that is this games multiplayer.

Alright, now I have to go show up for work 4 hours late...

ragenrok
11-18-2008, 09:59 AM
I don't mean to imply that everything needs to be = to CS, but in terms of gunplay (keep note people, I'm talking about the 360, and please, to the PC guys, relax...I have a PC too, I just can't afford to update it to be up to today's standards) and perhaps people are right in this thread, perhaps the 360 console version was dumbed down intentionally because they thought console gamers were stupid or something.

Honestly, if that's the case, I'm really sick and tired of that crap because consoles dont need to be dumbed down. Heck...putting the 180 degree turn button on the controller was bad enough in my opinion.


theres a reaosn whyt hey dumb it down, gamepads are alot less accurate than a kb+mouse combo, with a mouse you cna turn and aim veyr quickly and easly, controllers are way to clunky and slow to keep up with a mouse.

Ydiss
11-18-2008, 10:07 AM
Summed up the thread:

Werz muh reelizum!

1 star.

Mountainforest
11-18-2008, 10:11 AM
Counter Strike is really hard to get in to. I played it once for a couple of hours and got killed, killed and killed again. The fact that after dieing you have to wait for the round to end doesn't add to the fun either. I know a lot of people love CS, and I can get why that is, but the fact is that it's really hard to get in to. That, I believe, is the reason you no longer see a lot of those games: developers don't want to scare their customers away the first time they start up.

TF2 and L4D allow anyone to jump right in and do some good. Part of this means that when a new player starts up the game, he doesn't first need to spend a lot of time getting to grip with the weapons. More experienced players can increase their skill in other areas. By aiming for the heads for instance. Or knowing when to melee / use primary weapon / use secondary weapon. Or being able to free a player from a horde of zombies with minimal damage to the player itself. Or a lot of other things.

The bottom line is that weapons handling is just one of many factors determining how difficult a game is. Weapon handling isn't the focus of L4D, but that doesn't mean you dumbed the game down.

winterforge
11-18-2008, 10:15 AM
Can we have a separate forum for Xbox 360 users please? The gameplay and the players between the two are like night and day.

Darghan
11-18-2008, 10:15 AM
So are you basically saying that older gamers have to get shafted because Valve wants 5 year olds to be able to pick up a controller and play L4D with their daddys? It's a mature rated game and if any families out there allow their 12 and unders to play this game...then they have some serious problems...but that's a whole separate issue.



OP: Just because this particular product doesn't appeal to you, doesn't mean you've been shafted. Unfortunately, not every game will appeal to everyone.

It seems to me that you had some preconceived notions of what the game was about. From what you have posted so far, your notions where dissappointed.

Although presented as a FPS, L4D isn't so much about shooting, and the skills you'd need in other games like say, Farcy and Counterstrike (feel free to correct me on these examples; I'm old, and not that much into FPS). It seems to me that L4D is all about cooperation.

In my opinion, the 'simulation' part, for want of a better term, that you seem to expect is therefore unneccessary. The pace is so frantic that it would actually distract from the game.

I would suggest trying the game with a fresh mindset, devoid of expectations, and enjoy it for what it is. I've certainly not been dissappointed.

If that's not for you, then so be it. There are plenty other quality shooters out there that will appeal to you, I'm sure. I don't think though that such agression needs to be leveled at Valve because their product didn't meet your expectations. In that regard you might want to consider showing some restraint.

After all, Valve has given us many worthy titles. They deserve your respect at least for that.

Ta,

Darghan

Um...TE
11-18-2008, 10:22 AM
Time and time again all I ever see these days are dumbed down shooters being made for the masses...and why?? Why this shift in shooters in making them so simplistic that people's 5 year old kids could pick up the controllers and play just as good as someone who's 20?

One word: profit. The key to making money selling games is to make games that lots of people buy and enjoy.

Many people don't understand that a good portion of the market buying these games are in their 40s, not their 20s. Folks for whom their first video game was Pong tend to value the fun-factor more than those who take pride in their l33t gamer skillz. They're looking for more strategic challenges, not technical ones.

Does L4D deliver? In some ways, yes. Working together as a small group presents many low-twitch challenges. Would those cooperative moments be improved by weapon climb? Longer reload sequences? Less ammo? Flashlight battery drainage? Realistic falling damage? Muzzle flash?

So we can agree that additional recoil would make the game harder, I think it's a tough sell to claim that it would make the game better.

X-tr3m3r
11-18-2008, 10:25 AM
You have all been talking about recoil and realism. The fact that L4D has Zombies makes it totally unrealistic in the first place. Also CS:S doesn't have so much recoil on the guns, they are just inaccurate. DOD:S has much recoil.

Also L4D aimed at providing the community with a game which would require loads of cooperation between the players. Recoil and other similar complications would increase the need of personal skill which contradicts in some ways the main objective of the game mentioned above. This doesn't imply that personal skill is useless.

I don't really see why you are complaining about this game. It's really well-made and fun to play. It also introduces some new features like the A.I. Director and co-op gameplay. Let alone all the effects and the feeling it gives.

nufanvandal
11-18-2008, 10:53 AM
This guy is a ♥♥♥♥ing troll

true I'll never get why people think we care why you don't like a game. I don't go on the jonas brothers site and say how they are a plague, because they don't give a crap

Don't like it don't play

Smart_Bomb
11-18-2008, 10:56 AM
I have both a 360 and a good PC. The PC version is A LOT better, the way it's meant to be played as a speed shooter. The 360 version is more of a simple port from PC.

TraumaHound
11-18-2008, 11:00 AM
I have respect for the 360 and everything but I only play shooters on the PC. Shooters suck on consoles. Period. Left 4 Dead is awesome by the way.

MJEdens
11-18-2008, 11:01 AM
What's your idea of fun in a video game? If the game is a shooter...should the shooting be somewhat challenging instead of just calling for the player to hold down the trigger and spam spam spam???

It's a Zombie game from an FPS POV.

Understand that.

pinion
11-18-2008, 11:03 AM
Interesting how a person's ego freaks the ♥♥♥♥ out so easily over something so frivolous as perception of challenge and fun over a socially embraced game.

moonjo
11-18-2008, 11:06 AM
You saying 'dumbed down' is bad thing.
I really enjoyed DoD 1.2 with no recoil, endless bunny hopping, midair proning, etc; can't call it dumbed down though since I can't remember any fps game having recoil back then.

xBuTcHeRx
11-18-2008, 04:25 PM
Game was not designed to be competitive like Counter-Strike.

Was designed to be fun.
I agree, and it is best that way.

Smart_Bomb
11-18-2008, 05:16 PM
Certainly takes simpler than most FPS but I wouldn't consider it "dumbed-down."

It's a speed shooter like the good 'ol days with DOOM and Wolfenstein

St33lGh0st
11-20-2008, 11:01 AM
"Dumbed down" is a little strong for me. I'd call it "simpler" or "more visceral". I just wouldn't say it's bad.

Tango1ndiaTango
11-20-2008, 11:32 PM
I think, perhaps, that you did not really try out the game in the first place, to the thread starter. See, if you run around holding the trigger down, you'll never have enough ammo to make it successfully to the next ammo spot, or safe room for that matter.
The 360 version does, indeed sport recoil, and a great amount at that.
Consoles themselves are much more powerful than the average PC user cares to admit, or understands.
It's not a matter of creating a game to the masses, but seriously, no one is attempting for realism in a zombie survival game with a comedic appearance.
Before you go knocking on someone's design document, though, please consider the work involved in creating each video game. The men and women involved should be applauded for their work. It is no easy task, let me tell you from personal experience.
I think your easiest bet may be to simply say you do not like something, rather than attempting to flame the developers. While flaming other forum members is a definite no-no, flaming the people who work hard every day to bring dreams to life in interactive environments is by far a messed up occasion.
Please, more or less, think before you flame. You never know who you're going to hurt, be it some one else or yourself.

And a further note, just to let you know, sir, Left 4 Dead is not Counter-Strike.

genecrazy
11-21-2008, 03:00 AM
I didn't read everything in this thread, because im too lazy. But I know where youre coming from. A lot of FPS games are dumbed down these days. regen health, grenade indicators, less recoil, stupid repawns [ie bioshock, too human, halo series, cod 2,3,4,5, rainbow six vegas, etc]

But L4D is NOT dumbed down. I really dont know what the xbox 360 version is like. But the PC version is definitely not dumbed down in any way.

And if youre complaining about recoil, and aiming skill. This isnt what the game is about. Its not about fast reflexes, or precise aiming. Its about survival and working very very VERY close with your team.

Oh and, the expert mode isn't just dealing more damage. There are a bunch more zombies swarming at you..at least in the PC version

inkedskin
11-22-2008, 03:35 AM
I read through this whole thing. You guys are dumb.

It's the same argument as for why there's no melee weapons in the game. "BUT OMG IT WOULD BE LIEK REALISTIK CUZ BLADES DONT NEED RELOADING LOLOLOL."

This game was designed with a specific purpose in mind: four players, cooperatively shooting zombies in a cinematic fashion.

Not four players cooperatively shooting zombies while surviving a zombie apocalypse in a perfectly realistic way. Not four players cooperatively looting stores for food that hasn't yet gone stale, or one player trying to maintain barricades while the other three players sleep.

This game isn't a zombie apocalypse believability simulator; it's a FUN GAME TO PLAY. All I could honestly glean from OP was "Uzi recoil is insufficient, excuse me while I apply ointment to my butthurt."

If those Left 4 Dead preview videos going around at E3, etc. all had the disclaimer at the end "btw the recoil is unrealistic," I would still have bought the game. You, apparently, would not have.

I fail to see what is "dumbed down" about the game other than the recoil. I suppose you don't have the ultra-realistic armor or perfectly accurate hitboxes that Counter-Strike has. Nor do we get the just-like-in-real-life stab-someone-a-few-times-and-they-die-instantly knife physics. We even fail epically in the "utterly inaccessible to new players who don't want to spend hours of frustrating failure and incessant mocking by better players" department, perhaps moreso than any of the others I've listed.

What it boils down to is this: you expected a different game than it actually was, because your formed your own ideas of what the game would entail instead of listening to what people were actually saying about the game. You saw zombies and guns and thought "OMG IT MUST BE TEH REALISTIKZOR!" It's not realistic. It's not that believable. (Not in a bad way; the game world is fairly immersive and all that, but I think that if any of us were in a zombie apocalypse, we'd bring along a handaxe or SOMETHING melee-able.) But it's highly entertaining. Once you get past whining about no melee weapons, no realistic recoil, no real sense of long-term survival, no interconnected story, etc., you'll actually have fun.

Also, I think the greatest aspect of the game (for people who have greater concerns in life than recoil variables) is the sense of community. Just earlier tonight (erm... yesterday now), I met up with three people that I didn't know at all. We played through Dead Air and had a blast getting to know one another, despite only two of us having microphones. We worked well together, and we even went on to play another campaign after that one. In the end, we all traded Steam names and added each other as friends. I now know two pretty cool guys and one pretty cool girl who I can now call up whenever I want to shoot some zombies with some friends. What more could I want?

On a slightly unrelated note, I see the 360 version of this game as worthless, not because it's a 360 game (I'm a PC fanboy who can respect console fanboys' positions), but because the fact that Microsoft won't allow for user-driven content like we'll start seeing for the PC version in a few months. Not even just from Valve, but from random mappers and stuff. I can't wait.

T|L|D|R: Go back to Counter-Strike, and leave us to have fun.

Nomad Trooper
11-22-2008, 10:57 AM
UZI had no recoil or vertical lift? well, if you had used an UZI you would have known that UZI has almost no recoil! and if you happened to use any other gun you would have also known that guns actually hit where you aim! CS's cone of fire and recoil are the only unrealistic things here! Now go back to cs.
QFT

Most people here have not fired a real firearm so they little idea about what there saying. The first game I played with "recoil" was some Medal Of Honer demo, and I as thought 'WTF is wrong with my aim?' now I play games like Wolfenstein ET, and BF1942, and it feels like I'm holding the gun at my hip at not to my shoulder (because of the recoil) like one is supposed to.

In L4D your shots do become more inaccurate with rapid consecutive shots so I have no clue why you say they don't, unless your trying to strengthen your already weak argument?

Some of you say it is short, well since you compare it to FPS's in game play lets do the same thing with game length. there are very few great FPS's that are more then 10 hours of game play.

No expert is not easy albeit I have not played with s super good team on expert. There is more to expert then increased damage to players and decreased damage to the horde, there are much more special zombies then on the lower difficulty's, more hordes, and friendly fire is turned on so you have to think twice before you use the shotgun. What would you think higher difficulty would do? Make them shoot more accurate? React faster? Take cover? Throw more grenades? There not soldiers there zombies!

One final thing I must make clear to you all that have made this mistake, even the so called professionals have made it: This game is NOT a FPS, it is primarily in the genre Survival Horror with FPS attributes. I have read some posts back and saw that MJEdens, said it before I did lol.

Oh I have the 360 version,and the only thing I dislike is not being able to create map's (I like maping for Quake 3 games), but my comp can't run L4D because its old (look at the titles I play, those stretch the limits of my comps ability)

I can go on and on, but I have other things to do.

Stryker2[X]
11-22-2008, 11:18 AM
UZI had no recoil or vertical lift? well, if you had used an UZI you would have known that UZI has almost no recoil! and if you happened to use any other gun you would have also known that guns actually hit where you aim! CS's cone of fire and recoil are the only unrealistic things here! Now go back to cs.

Haha op just got pz'd.

dlind70
11-23-2008, 01:49 AM
Both versions are the same, gameplay wise. I'd don't know the point of the war that's brewing in this thread. Take it to System Wars.

Tango1ndiaTango
11-23-2008, 02:01 AM
It's mostly people with too much time on their hands.
And also the people who don't know what they're talking about.
You generally find when people really know what they're talking about,
that there is less talking, since the knowledge is clearly stated, rather
than a ton of annoying bickering.
And the majority of the posts on here are peoples opinions that they are
for some reason trying to elevate beyond opinion.

MMXBL
11-23-2008, 05:39 AM
To me the gunplay, gun animations and controller feedback in the L4D demo felt , looked and acted like all the other Valve console releases to date. Unless that changed with the final release I would tend to agree with the OP somewhat... I don't know if dumbed down is the words I would use though.

getoffmycar
11-23-2008, 01:34 PM
what game are you guys playing... there is no recoil in l4d only a crappy cone of fire which makes you think you have recoil when there is none at all.

theJwac
11-24-2008, 02:14 PM
What's your idea of fun in a video game? If the game is a shooter...should the shooting be somewhat challenging instead of just calling for the player to hold down the trigger and spam spam spam???Beat the four campaigns on expert then tell me this game isn't challenging. By the way, there is absolutely recoil in the 360 version. I don't know what you are talking about when it comes to claiming there isn't.