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View Full Version : Looks like $1 = €1 after all


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palker4
12-26-2008, 03:46 PM
I bought Beyond good and evil and IL2 1946 for 11,23 eur best price i can get for that games

Webez
12-26-2008, 03:51 PM
Actually these games have fair prices in euro.

That is why I bought it and I suggest that we continue to buy on Steam games that are fairly priced, to give Valve a hint on what they should do :)

Yeah, those games are fair priced so I will buy them. It seems ubisoft has done things right (late for europeans but right).

Frontlines and Dawn of War Everything Pack (but the thq is a lot more expensive) have a good euro price too. But don't look for much more than that because there is not. It usually is a $1 = €1 conversion and cheaper in pounds.

sartek
12-26-2008, 04:13 PM
Holidays sale L4D:

USA: $33
EU: €33

GREAT THANK YOU SO MUCH

/sarcasm

PS: did the topic starter banned cus he posted this ?

dont forget the VAT

CsendesMark
12-26-2008, 04:14 PM
Mass Effect Holyday discount (44,99€ to 40,49€) Thanx, in us /wo discount $30 :o

EA Marketing is a ZERO, they think, we can't use proxy to check prices in $???

TKATK
12-26-2008, 04:23 PM
Just restating the obvious, the price change makes Steam awful in Europe, with the exception of the UK and the few countries with the highest wages.

Also, having the OP banned seems like a low blow to me, as his recent post history doesn't seem to have anything banworthy in it.

Edit:
dont forget the VAT
The VAT was 20%, right?
USD:$39.66
EU: 33.33

And $39.66 equals 28.21 in euro.
I'd say it still sucks

Edit2:
The VAT is 19%, USD:$39.27, which is 27.93 EUR

chokke
12-26-2008, 04:34 PM
I am just curious. Have anyone tryed to call Valve somehow to get a response to WHY other then "this is that"?

Stilgar
12-26-2008, 04:37 PM
I am just curious. Have anyone tryed to call Valve somehow to get a response to WHY other then "this is that"?



Yes. Guess what is the result:)

I wonder how they let this happen. Absolutely absurd situation. And they had a beta!

sartek
12-26-2008, 04:42 PM
Just restating the obvious, the price change makes Steam awful in Europe, with the exception of the UK and the few countries with the highest wages.

Also, having the OP banned seems like a low blow to me, as his recent post history doesn't seem to have anything banworthy in it.

Edit:

The VAT was 20%, right?
USD:$39.66
EU: 33.33

And $39.66 equals 28.21 in euro.
I'd say it still sucks

Edit2:
The VAT is 19%, USD:$39.27, which is 27.93 EUR

country dependent

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_added_tax#Tax_rates

TKATK
12-26-2008, 05:51 PM
country dependent

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_added_tax#Tax_rates

Was actually wondering which one the thread generally uses, seeing as having everyone post his own VAT would end up a bit confusing, but i guess 19% will do

Karma_Police
12-26-2008, 06:20 PM
Was actually wondering which one the thread generally uses, seeing as having everyone post his own VAT would end up a bit confusing, but i guess 19% will do

I think we should always use 25%, just to accentuate the ridiculousness of the situation. Only Denmark and Sweden have 25% VAT, and yet with the maximum VAT the old prices and the UK prices are still better than the new ones we got.

steel78
12-26-2008, 06:20 PM
MEH i wanted to buy L4D today but when i saw that the price in UK is £20.24 and for me its 33,74€ that's just not fair. And you ain't seeing my money on this kind of rip-offs steam. I really don't get it why is the UK suddenly so privileged with the prices. I would not mind if the price was the same but this is just WRONG.

Krid
12-26-2008, 07:56 PM
Actually these games have fair prices in euro.

That's probably because Valve isn't the one picking the prices; all prices are set by whoever put the game on Steam.

That said, I'm quite disappointed by Valve's decision to punish non-American consumers.
I see no reason why they can't set-up a system where payments not in USD are priced so that Valve gets the USD value of the product after a bank handles the conversion. That would be about as fair all around as a system like this can get.

GrownupLawolf
12-26-2008, 07:59 PM
I'm really disappointed of Valve now. I thought Valve was a company, which didn't just care about money but bet what I think of them now...
It's just not fair to pay more for the SAME games for which others pay less. THIS IS A RIP-OFF, VALVE! It isn't so hard to calculate the "real" prices in €. But one thing's clear: 39$ are NOT 39€!

I won't buy anything from Steam until that gets changed. It's not enough to just change SOME prices, ALL of them have to be changed!

smooth
12-26-2008, 08:04 PM
That's probably because Valve isn't the one picking the prices; all prices are set by whoever put the game on Steam.

That said, I'm quite disappointed by Valve's decision to punish non-American consumers.
I see no reason why they can't set-up a system where payments not in USD are priced so that Valve gets the USD value of the product after a bank handles the conversion. That would be about as fair all around as a system like this can get.
I suspect then we'd see a glut of posts complaining about being charged the bank surcharge to convert the currency...

GrownupLawolf
12-26-2008, 08:10 PM
Valve is watching this thread.

StingingVelvet
12-26-2008, 08:24 PM
Houses are so much cheaper in Mexico. I don't know how land ownders get away with the blatant discrimination of charging more for a house in the New Englans suburbs than they do in Mexico. Discrimination!

Also, I went to a grocery store in downtown Philadelphia the other day and can you believe they were charging more for food there than in the suburbs?!?! Why?!?! Discrimination against urban people!!!

Seriously... if you guys want to see a change and debate the new prices you need to compare how they match up with local retail store prices, not prices here in the U.S. or anywhere else. Things cost more or less in different parts of the world... heck, in different parts of a country or state. This is how the economy works. Saying "cheaper in dollars... discrimination!!!" just makes you look ignorant to basic economic facts.

Argue the prices are too high compared to your local stores, if they are. Makes a lot more sense.

Bento90
12-26-2008, 08:25 PM
Been following this thread on and off and although I'm in the UK I too will not be buying any games from Steam until the prices are lowered in €, it's just rediculous, if they want to have local currency make the products the same value everywhere.

I only use Steam for Valve games because I have to, otherwise I go out and buy the game retail. It can be cheaper than Steam, plus there's also the assurance that if Steam ever goes away for whatever reason I still have my game.

Most price increases/higher prices only stick in general because people are willing to pay that, if they weren't willing it'd go down pretty fast, which is why Britain is Rip-off Britain in alot of sectors.

GrownupLawolf
12-26-2008, 08:57 PM
I too will not be buying any games from Steam until the prices are lowered in €

You are our friend. Thank you for supporting us!

CombatEngineers
12-26-2008, 10:27 PM
IIRC here in Finland when Far Cry 2 was first released on STEAM it cost 57 € inc. VAT and now 37,49 (49,99) €. If someone remembers differently please correct me.

.5 liter Pepsi
1.50 EUR = 2.10892 USD

StingingVelvet
12-26-2008, 10:51 PM
.5 liter Pepsi
1.50 EUR = 2.10892 USD

And yet it costs like $1.25 here in the U.S.... is everyone going to protest against Pepsi as well?

CombatEngineers
12-26-2008, 10:56 PM
I'm not protesting Pepsi. Ever heard of the Coca Cola or Big Mac index?

pkt-zer0
12-26-2008, 11:03 PM
IIRC here in Finland when Far Cry 2 was first released on STEAM it cost 57 € inc. VAT and now 37,49 (49,99) €. If someone remembers differently please correct me.
The newspost I've found mentions a 50 USD starting price, which, after adding 25% VAT, results in 44 EUR. So that 25% discount is more like a 13% discount, actually. Might want to add that as a footnote somewhere.

As for the rest, the 10% discount is actually a 0.8% raise, 50% off means 44% off, and a 75% deduction is a 72% cut.

Faur
12-27-2008, 12:04 AM
And yet it costs like $1.25 here in the U.S.... is everyone going to protest against Pepsi as well?

There are logistics, supply, and demand involved with a physical product much more than a digital download.

I've yet to see a reasonable argument as to why you'd charge more for a download in one country than another, excluding tax. Let alone make that change overnight, right before christmas.

And yes, the prices in the local stores are much cheaper than they are on steam - even after the christmas sale. I can get Call of Duty 4 boxed for 22 usd which is 55 usd on steam during the sale.

It's not an outrage because I feel valve "owes" me anything, it's just so "what are they thinking".

cebero
12-27-2008, 12:33 AM
Lol, I was eagerly waiting Steam holiday sale - was thinking about buying CoD5 and GTA4. But still, even after 10% discount those games are about 5 euros more expensive than in our local retail store. Thanks, but no thanks.

I believe Valve has lost quite a many deals with their currency mess up.

Europhoria
12-27-2008, 12:44 AM
I believe Valve has lost quite a many deals with their currency mess up.

This is one of the best ways to send a clear message to Valve. There was no need for the Europeans to flood the other threads. We support you, but not if this nonsense continues.

supernaut
12-27-2008, 01:12 AM
Karma_police, thanks for correctly understanding my post.
I agree that 5 euros for Bioshock is low price, but compared to price in dollars it is still a ripoff In My Humble Opinion, which no all people have to agree with, but it does not mean they have to insult me ("stop whining", etc).

Why do I claim it is a ripoff?
Bioshock in USA costs 5 dollars
5 dollars equals 3,56 euros

Bioshock in EU (except UK) costs 5 euros
5 euros equals 7 dollars

So, Europeans pay 40% more for Bioshock - I consider this a ripoff, even if it is relatively small amount.

US users, imagine that is you who pay 40% more for games on Steam than Europeans, wouldn't you consider this a ripoff?

You can address me personally you know. I edited my original post, where I DID apologize, in case you didn't notice. And don't have the illusion of me insulting you, because "Is it really worth whining about ?" is not an insult. Stop putting words in my mouth by saying "stop whining".

I misunderstood, which is the reason I was being rude and for that I apologized.

P.S.

I'm from Europe, so I share your predicament. I payed about $68 for Bioshock when it first came out on Steam, $68 for a game with no multiplayer, no physical box or manual. That was a ripoff!

Unshaved
12-27-2008, 01:14 AM
This is one of the best ways to send a clear message to Valve. There was no need for the Europeans to flood the other threads. We support you, but not if this nonsense continues.

You are absolutely right. The more people spamming other threads about the euro=dollar thing the more it looks like little 10 year olds are complaining about pricing.
So, PLEASE keep it within this thread.

btw; I actually bought some stuff from the holiday sale... bioshock.. €5.. such a good game that I don't care about the ~€2 difference. and the dawn of war everything pack which is €15 vs. $30.

chopstix
12-27-2008, 01:21 AM
Houses are so much cheaper in Mexico. I don't know how land ownders get away with the blatant discrimination of charging more for a house in the New Englans suburbs than they do in Mexico. Discrimination!

Also, I went to a grocery store in downtown Philadelphia the other day and can you believe they were charging more for food there than in the suburbs?!?! Why?!?! Discrimination against urban people!!!

Seriously... if you guys want to see a change and debate the new prices you need to compare how they match up with local retail store prices, not prices here in the U.S. or anywhere else. Things cost more or less in different parts of the world... heck, in different parts of a country or state. This is how the economy works. Saying "cheaper in dollars... discrimination!!!" just makes you look ignorant to basic economic facts.

Argue the prices are too high compared to your local stores, if they are. Makes a lot more sense.

That really makes no sense. If you are going to use that argument, put it into better context.

A single real estate group owns all the houses. They decide to use another form of currency instead of what has been used all this time, and don't give a care to conversion rates. Instead, you will be charged 20-40% more just for the sake of it for the same house that were previously cheaper. Does that really make sense?

Personally this doesn't affect me, I live in the US, but surely you can see the absurdity behind it. I have always highly praised Valve, but the delay in sorting this situation and around the holidays is proving to be disheartening. I feel bad for my European friends who are not apart of the EU, and being forced to use a currency that jacks the prices up more than the USD or their own local currency.

pkt-zer0
12-27-2008, 01:26 AM
An official or semi-official update would be nice. I realize that people are in a rush there as it is, seeing how there are still a couple of bugs with the sales and/or alternate currencies, but still. Just saying "the prices are here to stay" or "whoops! we're looking into it" would suffice, or just to know whether the status quo will persist until the end of the holiday sales.

Sure, if third parties are involved in the pricing, the response might be further delayed, but I don't see what's keeping VALVe from aligning the European prices of at least their own games with the rest of the world. They've done that for Portal, why not the rest?

The silence is deafening.

Simplex
12-27-2008, 01:27 AM
Supernaut, thanks for clarification, sorry for misrepresenting what you wrote.

UnD3RD0G
12-27-2008, 02:11 AM
no more steam for me...
only reason why i keep it installed will be L4D
if i ever get sick of that game , Steam is going straight to Trashbin...
freaking ripoffs...

Woutsie
12-27-2008, 02:17 AM
I was going to buy a ♥♥♥♥load of games during this holiday discount. Dawn of War games, UT games, ... Too bad they are STILL expensive in Europe.

JediEagle
12-27-2008, 02:22 AM
Oh,come on guys. Now, you're just being, well bunch of idiots.
Yes, most of the prices are to much, but, where else in Europe can you get get Bioshock for 5€? OR LESS! And now you're ♥♥♥♥♥ing because with the current exchange rate yo could get it for 5$+VAT(0.2 fo me) = 6$ --> 4.27 €. So will, those extra 0.72 cents really kill you? Sure, Prince of Persia is way too much, I got it for 17.99 pounds from a UK store, which is 18.88 €, but not all deals are bad.

As mentioned before, Bioshock, the we have Beyond Good & Evil for 3.5€ or 5€ regularly, which the game still deserves.

There might come a momment where the exchange rate will not be so favourable with Europeans and you just might be happy about it.

But to stay true to the topic. Call of duty 4 is still to expensive. Come on, drop the price on that one already to about 15€ - 20€.

P.S.: this response is mostly for the people who are complaining about the price of Bioshock, which, at 5€, is a freakin' steal :)

Roachz
12-27-2008, 02:47 AM
Oh,come on guys. Now, you're just being, well bunch of idiots.
Yes, most of the prices are to much, but, where else in Europe can you get get Bioshock for 5€? OR LESS! And now you're ♥♥♥♥♥ing because with the current exchange rate yo could get it for 5$+VAT(0.2 fo me) = 6$ --> 4.27 €. So will, those extra 0.72 cents really kill you? Sure, Prince of Persia is way too much, I got it for 17.99 pounds from a UK store, which is 18.88 €, but not all deals are bad.

As mentioned before, Bioshock, the we have Beyond Good & Evil for 3.5€ or 5€ regularly, which the game still deserves.

There might come a momment where the exchange rate will not be so favourable with Europeans and you just might be happy about it.

But to stay true to the topic. Call of duty 4 is still to expensive. Come on, drop the price on that one already to about 15€ - 20€.

P.S.: this response is mostly for the people who are complaining about the price of Bioshock, which, at 5€, is a freakin' steal :)


Its not the price !! its te principle.... they up the price by 30% than give a 20% discount and we should be happy.. hey, most of the people are falling for it tough...

FidelCastrol
12-27-2008, 02:55 AM
Its not the price !! its te principle.... they up the price by 30% than give a 20% discount and we should be happy.. hey, most of the people are falling for it tough...

Yep, the prices for holiday sales are the prices we should get, like...all the time ;)

Yammo
12-27-2008, 03:17 AM
I wonder, how many Game-deveopers / Publishers are reading this thread?

strandedPL
12-27-2008, 03:26 AM
Remember you can always ask for gifts from you American friends (if you have any)...

But those 3 titles (BioShock, Frontlines: Fuel of War, Company of Heroes) are really worth it! They are even cheaper in Europe than in USA.

I think you should take advantage of those lower prices, especially because THQ did us a favor the same with BioShock devs (2K Games?).

Anyway back to games ;D

tobeast
12-27-2008, 03:27 AM
There might come a momment where the exchange rate will not be so favourable with Europeans and you just might be happy about it.

P.S.: this response is mostly for the people who are complaining about the price of Bioshock, which, at 5€, is a freakin' steal :)

I don't really think that a less favourable exchange rate would benefit us in Europe. The prices would then most (like 99%) likely go up. It seems to be common practice that companies don't give a crap when they charge more in other countries but when the dollar gets stronger, ooooh no those customers don't get a deal for a change but they get their prices adjusted as well so that the companies don't end up getting less money from those customers.
This goes for pretty much everything that can be bought online, be it software like Maple or
songs from the iTunes store. Some stores adjust their prices based on just your IP ... which leads to some "funny" side effects sometimes for people that have an ISP from another country... didn't that happen with CS or something in the past when people from France ended up with the cut German version?

As for Bioshock that price is still very good and I would get it if it came with the English audio here in Germany but apparently it doesn't - but localization is a whole other story...

GaryCXJk
12-27-2008, 03:43 AM
Oh,come on guys. Now, you're just being, well bunch of idiots.
Yes, most of the prices are to much, but, where else in Europe can you get get Bioshock for 5€? OR LESS! And now you're ♥♥♥♥♥ing because with the current exchange rate yo could get it for 5$+VAT(0.2 fo me) = 6$ --> 4.27 €. So will, those extra 0.72 cents really kill you? Sure, Prince of Persia is way too much, I got it for 17.99 pounds from a UK store, which is 18.88 €, but not all deals are bad.

As mentioned before, Bioshock, the we have Beyond Good & Evil for 3.5€ or 5€ regularly, which the game still deserves.
I'd have to agree with Bioshock and Beyond Good & Evil. These prices really left me Bioshocked.

Bleh, stupid pun.

Anyway, I'd buy Bioshock if it weren't for the fact that I am not fond of shooters.

Fair prices == legal buy from me.

And it appears that the Euro will stay strong against the dollar, at least for the coming year, and perhaps until 2012. After that it doesn't really matter anyway, since we're all going to die anyway.

But seriously, publishers really need to price their games reasonable. Even for US standards these prices are too high. It's digital media, not some stupid boxed retail crap. We support digital media distribution because it's cheaper, not because we're lazy-♥♥♥ people, or because we think it's the future. We buy on-line because we expect the games to be cheaper. If a game costs the same or more on-line in comparison to retail releases, it's really not worth the trouble, you could just have been wasting your time on better things, like making your games slightly less bugged. I mean, what idiot thought it would be "a good idea" to sell games at the same price as retail releases, or even at a higher price? Seriously, these people should be fired on the spot. Europeans aren't stupid, heck, Americans aren't even that stupid to realize that $50 in store and $55 on-line equals going to the store instead.

And that's my $1, eh, $0.50, eh, €0.50.

Simplex
12-27-2008, 03:57 AM
Remember you can always ask for gifts from you American friends (if you have any)...

But those 3 titles (BioShock, Frontlines: Fuel of War, Company of Heroes) are really worth it! They are even cheaper in Europe than in USA.

I agree that Frontlines and Company of Heroes is cheaper on European Steam, but I noticed that for the second time you wrote that Bioshock price in Europe is better than in USA. I double-checked and Bioshock is 5$ (3,5€)in USA and 5€ (7$) in Europe. So how is that cheaper? Bioshock is another example of 1$=1€ conversion, so it is 40% more expensive in Europe.

I admit I was not looking very hard, but except games you mentioned (excluding Bioshock) the only game I found cheaper in EU is Beyond Good & Evil - and I bought it.
It is only 3,75€ (5,3$) in Europe and 7,5$ (5,3€) in USA. Funny, price in USA is 5,3€ and price in EU is 5,3$ - that's what I'm talking about! :D
If any American wants to experience how Europeans are ripped off by the currency converion, they should compare price of BG&E in US and EU - it is the same "ripoff", only in the other direction.

Accidentaly, Beyond Good and Evil is one of the best games ever made so I advise everyone to buy it for such a small sum.

Beyond Good & Evil - 3,75€
Satisfaction that despite being in Europe you paid less than you would pay in the USA - priceless ;)

BTW. I used https://bypas.in to check prices in USA, perhaps you used a different method and got a different price.

Karma_Police
12-27-2008, 04:01 AM
BTW. I used https://bypas.in to check prices in USA, perhaps you used a different method and got a different price.

We use the simple appending of ?cc=US to the URL. After you see the prices either replace US with your country code, or clean your fakeCC cookie.

Cold Fear is also cheaper, but it doesn't look any good though.

GaryCXJk
12-27-2008, 04:06 AM
In my opinion, any non-indie game that is lower than $9.99 at regular price is reasonable, even if converted to €9.99. It's no use to argue on that level anyway, since these games are mostly reasonably priced anyway.

For me it doesn't really matter that Bioshock is €5 and $5. Bioshock still is a decently new game, and to be this cheap in such a short period is a good deal anyway. Mind you that most games barely get in the bargain bin after five years.

CorneliusCH
12-27-2008, 04:13 AM
I hope they will lower the prices. I thought about buying CoD: World at War, Mass Effect and Grand Theft Auto IV, but those are still too expesive.
If I didn´t already own Bio Shock, I would buy it now, though.

Simplex
12-27-2008, 04:17 AM
We use the simple appending of ?cc=US to the URL. After you see the prices either replace US with your country code, or clean your fakeCC cookie.
Using this method price of Bioshock is still 5$ so my argument still stands.
However, I am unable to go back to prices in euro, no matter what country code I use (I tried GB, UK, PL, SPA) - I still see prices in dollars.

Cold Fear is also cheaper, but it doesn't look any good though.
If you like survival horror games, you could try it.

Karma_Police
12-27-2008, 04:25 AM
Using this method price of Bioshock is still 5$ so my argument still stands.
However, I am unable to go back to prices in euro, no matter what country code I use (I tried GB, UK, PL, SPA) - I still see prices in dollars.


If you like survival horror games, you could try it.

Weird. They should work. Try these links.

US: http://store.steampowered.com/?cc=us
UK: http://store.steampowered.com/?cc=uk
GB: http://store.steampowered.com/?cc=gb
PL: http://store.steampowered.com/?cc=pl
ES (you were trying spain?): http://store.steampowered.com/?cc=es

If they don't work, clean your cache.

Simplex
12-27-2008, 04:28 AM
I cleared my cookies and I was back to euro. Your links work too, perhaps it was the fact that I was using capital letters (GB) instead of small letter, but strange thing is that capital letters US worked.

wolf5
12-27-2008, 04:31 AM
Compare prices (if ur in Europe):
http://store.steampowered.com/
with the US prices:
http://browse007.com/ (enter http://store.steampowered.com/)

MassEffect for €40 or $26. Talk about BIG DIFFERENCE!

EDIT: Oh. Someone posted an alternate way above :P

TENGILL
12-27-2008, 04:46 AM
Steam lost me as a a shoper.
Wont be geting any games from this platform unless the start living in the real world.

Klitoride
12-27-2008, 04:47 AM
seems thery are adjusting SOME of the prices...
here an example
Left 4 dead: 37.49$
Left 4 dead: 33.74€

there is still a difference of 1 or 2 euro, before was 45€ anyway so at least something is moving...

FredWP
12-27-2008, 04:51 AM
seems thery are adjusting SOME of the prices...
here an example
Left 4 dead: 37.49$
Left 4 dead: 33.74€

there is still a difference of 1 or 2 euro, before was 45€ anyway so at least something is moving...

And it will be 45 euros again after holidays sales. They got you fooled as well.

Unshaved
12-27-2008, 04:54 AM
I was going to buy a ♥♥♥♥load of games during this holiday discount. Dawn of War games, UT games, ... Too bad they are STILL expensive in Europe.

Dawn of war games? As far as i've seen the Dawn of War everything pack is IMPOSSIBLE to get in europe for less than €15. I'm talking about new and retail and not some ♥♥♥♥♥ package from ebay. Dark crusade alone costs more(~€20) at the cheapest store.

Also to the ones jabbering about bioshock being too expensive: PLEASE, GTFO of the thread. Tell me where you can get Bioshock for less than €5? The cheapest I can find is €15.
Even though we pay more for it you have absolutely NO right to whine about it when it's less than retail. Because that'd be like getting a free cookie and asking for a second one.

Klitoride
12-27-2008, 04:55 AM
And it will be 45 euros again after holidays sales. They got you fooled as well.

OMG they are getting smarter :eek:

TENGILL
12-27-2008, 05:02 AM
Im supriced thay havent killd this.
Thats a plus for them. :)
Leting us speek our minds.
And i think thay will change this pricing problem in a day or so.
Like after people get back from x-mas and new years.
That is what i think is the reason for this problem.

Now im of to try and find a fix for the Railroad Tycoon problem on Vista.

Haas82
12-27-2008, 06:08 AM
I wonder, how many Game-deveopers / Publishers are reading this thread?
none... they only watch figures

Hawaian_ape
12-27-2008, 06:37 AM
The games are overpriced- but the $ prices have no VAT and Euro prices have VAT included in them. So for many countries with high VAT its almost the same. They should think about the prices though- some are insane !

CorneliusCH
12-27-2008, 06:40 AM
Well, the VAT in Swiss is only 7.6% and not around 20% like for EU Members, but I thought Digital Media is VAT-exempt anyway....

Hawaian_ape
12-27-2008, 06:41 AM
Nope- paid for VAT when I was paying in $.

0hYeah
12-27-2008, 06:45 AM
I don't understand. Doesn't Valve want my money? I want to buy good games on Steam, but I will not do it when I feel I'm getting screwed in the process.

For now, I'll probably buy Bioshock for 5€. Now that's a bargain.

Karma_Police
12-27-2008, 06:46 AM
The games are overpriced- but the $ prices have no VAT and Euro prices have VAT included in them. So for many countries with high VAT its almost the same. They should think about the prices though- some are insane !

Great... For the 2 (2 are many now?) high VAT countries, which pay 25% it's almost the same. The rest of us have to pay premium because?

faugusztin
12-27-2008, 06:59 AM
The games are overpriced- but the $ prices have no VAT and Euro prices have VAT included in them. So for many countries with high VAT its almost the same. They should think about the prices though- some are insane !

There are zero (0) countries with so high VAT as you say. Why ? Because simply there is no country with 46% VAT. Most countries have VAT bellow 20%, maximal VAT is 25% if i remember correctly. Neither is even close to the 46% difference between $ and EUR.

Stilgar
12-27-2008, 07:09 AM
Im supriced thay havent killd this.
Thats a plus for them. :)
Leting us speek our minds.
...

Trying to silence like 10K people can have disastrous effects online. Ever heard of the Streisand Effect ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect )?

Marmelada
12-27-2008, 07:15 AM
I read that the new euro prices included vat and in that case they weren't much higher then the old usd prices with VAT added however i made a purchase and got this weird total:
Bioshock 4,19 EUR Garry's Mod 7,55 EUR Half-Life: Blue Shift 0,83 EUR Opposing Force 0,83 EUR Geometry Wars 3,02 EU Multiwinia + Darwinia 6,29 EUR Trials 2: Second Edition 2,09 EUR
Unreal Tournament 3 8,39 EUR
Total
39,52 EUR

CombatEngineers
12-27-2008, 07:38 AM
Well, the VAT in Swiss is only 7.6% and not around 20% like for EU Members, but I thought Digital Media is VAT-exempt anyway....22% here...:mad:

Crysis Warhead cost me 30.36 € when I bought it. It's now 29.99 €.

What I don't understand is why is the UK getting games so much cheaper...

pl0wsh4r3
12-27-2008, 07:51 AM
Valve, you should update Support knowledge base:
What currency are the prices in the Steam store priced in?

All prices presented in the Steam store are in United States dollars - if you need the exact total in your country's currency, please contact your credit card issuer or bank for the current exchange rate (order totals are based upon the exchange rate at the time of purchase).

Matt
12-27-2008, 07:52 AM
Valve, you should update Support knowledge base:

thanks for the info. I'll alert them.

GrownupLawolf
12-27-2008, 08:04 AM
I would like to hear a statement from one of Valve's staff members, because right now, I think they are in need of one.

Balerion
12-27-2008, 08:08 AM
Im supriced thay havent killd this.
Thats a plus for them. :)
Leting us speek our minds.
If they closed this discussion, it'd be a disaster for them, cause it'll piss everyone else and people will start shouting even louder cause of that kind of censorship.

EDIT: like Stilgar pointed out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

I'd say they are just waiting for this outcry to die down (which is already happening...)

It's much better and smarter to just let people express their opinions with just a little bit of censorship here and there and just ignore them.
The people will feel better because they can complain and the company (Valve) will look better because they can say they support free speech.
That's win win situation for Valve. They won't change anything, why should they? And yet, they'll still come out as a nice company with a very minor damage to their image. (which can be fixed by some "great discounts" /sarcasm)

I'll just post this again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_technique

Congrats to Valve for making fools out of their customers. Bravo. :rolleyes:

Jani666
12-27-2008, 08:10 AM
European currency change, - blabla.
It’s quite clearly now for everybody that this was just a price raise for us Europeans, nothing else.
It’s just sad that they try to wind us up with this currency change bullcrap. Next price raise the currency will change to Yuan. :D

Hawaian_ape
12-27-2008, 08:21 AM
Okay- here is the thing- in Poland its like this: Dolar is 2,9 PLN and Euro is 4,1 so its HARDLY 40% more. Its like.. 30%- so its close to 22% that is in Poland. Im sure many more countries have exchange rate as close as this one is. So its not a big deal. Thats all.

pkt-zer0
12-27-2008, 08:29 AM
The games are overpriced- but the $ prices have no VAT and Euro prices have VAT included in them. So for many countries with high VAT its almost the same. They should think about the prices though- some are insane !
It's a 40% increase due to the conversion, VAT is 25% at the very highest. Furthermore, UK prices seem to include no VAT whatsoever.
Okay- here is the thing- in Poland its like this: Dolar is 2,9 PLN and Euro is 4,1 so its HARDLY 40% more. Its like.. 30%- so its close to 22% that is in Poland.
Huh? Unless I'm missing something, 4.1 / 2.9 = 1.4137931 -> 41.37931%, not 30%.

CsendesMark
12-27-2008, 08:36 AM
The games are overpriced- but the $ prices have no VAT and Euro prices have VAT included in them. So for many countries with high VAT its almost the same. They should think about the prices though- some are insane !

Please, dont be a smart "Guy"
For example:
Mass effect in Hungary and the other European countries 40,5€ the same product in US is $27 (+20% VAT $32,4)= 22€ for american users...

scorpionus
12-27-2008, 08:42 AM
SO easier... i am not gone buy anything from steam anymore ... i better buy game from the shops ...

Hawaian_ape
12-27-2008, 08:46 AM
It's a 40% increase due to the conversion, VAT is 25% at the very highest. Furthermore, UK prices seem to include no VAT whatsoever.

Huh? Unless I'm missing something, 4.1 / 2.9 = 1.4137931 -> 41.37931%, not 30%.

Oops- sorry bout that. Well yeah- my bad for being a dumbass with percentage. But when a game costs 10 Euro and 10 bucks I pay ~36 PLN for dolars and ~41 for euro. Its getting worse when the price is higher- 20 $= ~72 PLN and 20 euro is ~80 so its not the end of the world- it is higher but its not a horrible price. But I do agree that its worse when ya know that its a difrent situation in every country. And games (retail) in Poland are 50% cheaper. Thats where I see the problem.
CsendesMark I really am not trying to be a smart guy- I see that its not fair, even if we would be pain' like.. 1% more- why should we ? and yes I agree that some prices are really weird for us europeans- And that is F'd up.

AndreaGalileo
12-27-2008, 08:57 AM
Look! The price of Portal has been adjusted!

Sale price:
3.75 Euro vs 4.99 Dollars

Normal price:
14.99 Euro vs 19.99 Dollars

This is a good sign! (or maybe not)

Hawaian_ape
12-27-2008, 09:01 AM
Lets hope the prices of european games are going to be much lower than what we see now. Because I can buy Left 4 dead for 20 euro (80 pln) from a store near me (thats a price I am willing to pay)- and on steam its.. 33 euro (44 euro normaly)(not going to happen).

strandedPL
12-27-2008, 09:06 AM
Sorry about the BioShock, it turns out Valve changed it, because it was $14.99, not $4.99.

Oh well, it's just like few dollars/euros more. I don't really care about it that much anymore...

AndreaGalileo
12-27-2008, 09:21 AM
Sorry about the BioShock, it turns out Valve changed it, because it was $14.99, not $4.99.

Oh well, it's just like few dollars/euros more. I don't really care about it that much anymore...

Here, Bioshock is priced at 4.99 euro

Yammo
12-27-2008, 09:28 AM
none... they only watch figures

...at least one is watching... :cool:

pkt-zer0
12-27-2008, 09:31 AM
Oops- sorry bout that. Well yeah- my bad for being a dumbass with percentage. But when a game costs 10 Euro and 10 bucks I pay ~36 PLN for dolars and ~41 for euro. Its getting worse when the price is higher- 20 $= ~72 PLN and 20 euro is ~80 so its not the end of the world- it is higher but its not a horrible price.
I agree it's not a horrible price increase, it's only 13% over the price+25% VAT people have been paying, after all. But by the same logic, was it worth the amount of ill will and dissatisfaction this has generated, especially during Christmas? In the long run, possibly. But with the prices being higher than retail, like you mention, I'm not too sure about that.

Stilgar
12-27-2008, 09:54 AM
...

I'd say they are just waiting for this outcry to die down (which is already happening...)

...

That's win win situation for Valve. They won't change anything, why should they?

...


Not exactly. Even if the outcry dies people won't buy from Steam if their local retailer sells 30% cheaper. That is why valve will change things. In my opinion this is just a silly mistake and I believe someone will get fired for this after the holidays. If not Valve will suffer reduced or no sales in Europe. They invested so much in order to convince people that they don't need boxes to put on the shelf and I doubt they will throw it away. I had problems buying games with nothing physical and it took me years to start buying digital copies even if they were cheaper.

Klitoride
12-27-2008, 10:08 AM
I'll just post this again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_technique

Congrats to Valve for making fools out of their customers. Bravo. :rolleyes:

its what they did with the prices that have been sdjusted and now looks "resonable" omg :o

Playmaxxi
12-27-2008, 10:08 AM
Sorry but i'm out of discussion:
there +30% price for European or Americans?

chopstix
12-27-2008, 10:16 AM
...

I'd say they are just waiting for this outcry to die down (which is already happening...)

...

That's win win situation for Valve. They won't change anything, why should they? And yet, they'll still come out as a nice company with a very minor damage to their image.

I completely disagree. This is not a win win situation for Valve. If they simply wait for the outcry to die down and ignore the situation overall, they are losing a huge customer base. People in Europe are going to go back to buying retail, or use another form of digital distribution that does not unfairly raise prices.

Not to mention, Steam will not regain it's image to those that this is affecting. For those it doesn't concern, it's easy to forget about and just call people in Europe whiners (when in reality they are not, they just want fair pricing). This is going to seriously hinder Valve unless they correct their actions.

I am not even from Europe, and I am very disappointed in Valve right now. With their lack of information to the community about the issue or attempt to remedy the situation, I am seriously beginning to question them.

Simplex
12-27-2008, 10:18 AM
Sorry but i'm out of discussion:
there +30% price for European or Americans?

Read first post in the thread.

For those wanting to buy Oddworld games - they are cheaper on Good Old Games: http://www.gog.com/en/search/sort/search/odd

Plus, you actually OWN games bought on GoG - in the sense that there is no DRM whatsoever, you can play games when offline and will still be able to play even if GoG goes bankrupt.

Unshaved
12-27-2008, 10:24 AM
Okay- here is the thing- in Poland its like this: Dolar is 2,9 PLN and Euro is 4,1 so its HARDLY 40% more. Its like.. 30%- so its close to 22% that is in Poland. Im sure many more countries have exchange rate as close as this one is. So its not a big deal. Thats all.

$1 = €1.406 at the moment which means 40.6%

I'll just post this again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_technique

Congrats to Valve for making fools out of their customers. Bravo. :rolleyes:

Err... you mean:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique

Karma_Police
12-27-2008, 10:29 AM
Sorry but i'm out of discussion:
there +30% price for European or Americans?

Well... It's explained in the first page of this thread, but here goes.

Valve wanted/needed the store to have more currencies, so they decided to start with Europe. Now, their research told them that:

a) All Europeans like to pay more for games, except in the UK.
b) All Europeans use one currency, Except in the UK.
c) All Europeans pay the same VAT, Except in the UK.

So, they compiled their new list of prices, with fair prices for the UK, and 1$ = 1€ for the rest of Europeans, disregarding the different VATs in different countries, and the different currencies. They sent this to the developers/publishers who:

a) Didn't care to check it, and just said OK.
b) Trusted Valve to have done their homework and check which price is right, and just said OK.
c) Are greedy ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥s, saw we would pay more, and just said OK.

After that, some Valve employees acknowledged that maybe there were some problems, adjusted some prices, and I guess got some developers to adjust their prices. Of course, we're still not happy. Call us greedy ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥s if you want, but they are still worst than they were, and they are horrible to those that pay lower or no VAT.

And there you have it.


So, to answer your question, +30% price for Europeans.

Highstrike
12-27-2008, 10:34 AM
I won't pay anymore valve's digital delivery those prices doesen't make any sense:o

me 2, i bought lots of games on steam in the past 4 years but now.... it seams its not worth it anymore.... i'd rather go retail or ripped by reloaded :P

Go1den3ye
12-27-2008, 10:44 AM
This is ♥♥♥♥ing SICK! I used to Love steam, but this is ♥♥♥♥ing robbery.
First of, Im from norway. We dont pay VAT on digital download WHATSOEVER, so WHY VALVE?!? WHY SHOULD I DO IT ON STEAM NOW?!?

STEAM has allways been a number one for me, cheaper than store bought, easier cause no cd or cd key to loose.

But now its more expensive, and thats just wrong when theres no extra expence, and specially when people on hte other side of the dam pay less.

Yammo
12-27-2008, 10:50 AM
Whoever laid up the strategy for this conversion at Steam-Store will have a hard time keeping his job. Even if the prices are adjusted back to the previous levels... Or even if they are made to match other "normal" online stores... The damage is done... People have started using asking themselves what they really get for their money and if Steam is as "stable" as one thought. Steam-Store faces a dire task with minimizing their prices to get customers to return.

Alea iacta est.

netlork
12-27-2008, 10:51 AM
$1 = €1.406 at the moment which means 40.6%



Err... you mean:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique

1€=1.406$ ;)

niMic
12-27-2008, 10:58 AM
Whoever laid up the strategy for this conversion at Steam-Store will have a hard time keeping his job. Even if the prices are adjusted back to the previous levels... Or even if they are made to match other "normal" online stores... The damage is done... People have started using asking themselves what they really get for their money and if Steam is as "stable" as one thought. Steam-Store faces a dire task with minimizing their prices to get customers to return.

Alea iacta est.

I've got to agree with this. If Valve put things right with the prices, they'll probably continue to be my favourite game company (developers/publishers), but I won't be as naively besotted as I was before this. I'll continue buying their and others games on Steam (as opposed to now), but there will always be the ♥♥♥♥ling little fear that they might pull another customer abusing stunt like this.

Perhaps it would help if they at least made a formal statement about it.

MartinezZ
12-27-2008, 10:58 AM
OK, I have all prices in €. If I use url in format:http://store.steampowered.com/?cc=us I can add games in cart in $ BUT if I try continue from "Payment method and billing information" i get only error:Your billing address doesn't look like it matches up with your current country. Please contact support for assistance or use a payment method registered to your current address.BUT :D if I do same think throught standard url (without ?cc) I can finish whole purchase - damned! I want pay in USD!!!

Smurfy12
12-27-2008, 11:07 AM
OK, I have all prices in €. If I use url in format:http://store.steampowered.com/?cc=us I can add games in cart in $ BUT if I try continue from "Payment method and billing information" i get only error:BUT :D if I do same think throught standard url (without ?cc) I can finish whole purchase - damned! I want pay in USD!!!

They ban your Steam account if you do that.

Go1den3ye
12-27-2008, 11:10 AM
What vale SHOULD do, Is just admit their damn fault, change it so its the same price worldwide. and Be f%&ing glad we actally WANT to give them a second chanse.

Karma_Police
12-27-2008, 11:12 AM
OK, I have all prices in €. If I use url in format:http://store.steampowered.com/?cc=us I can add games in cart in $ BUT if I try continue from "Payment method and billing information" i get only error:BUT :D if I do same think throught standard url (without ?cc) I can finish whole purchase - damned! I want pay in USD!!!

It doesn't work. They can see your credit card is from another country, so the transaction fails.

Also, if you compare the prices, you really want to buy in £ and not $.

Simplex
12-27-2008, 11:41 AM
Steam can make this ♥♥♥♥storm go away in one simple, brilliant move - set UK prices for all Europeans :D

Unshaved
12-27-2008, 11:45 AM
1€=1.406$ ;)

Err.. what he said :eek:

Simplex
12-27-2008, 11:50 AM
Ehh, I caved in and bought Culpa Innata for 4,99€, despite the fact that it is for 4,99$ in the US - but the only reason is that I was unable to find a place where they sold it in Poland.

DrBreen
12-27-2008, 11:58 AM
OP was banned

Way to go valve!

MartinezZ
12-27-2008, 12:00 PM
They ban your Steam account if you do that.

Perfect. Really. They press me to pay in €, I not want it and if I try pay in $ (as I want), BAN awaiting me. Perfect.

OK, christmas discount and I don't buy anything. Even that some games are "favourable". Cause I hate this $1 = €1 policy :(

Yackeroeni
12-27-2008, 12:00 PM
They should correct the prices, tough they should leave the VAT included, it really was misleading when you had to pay taxes afterwards!

Unshaved
12-27-2008, 12:01 PM
Ehh, I caved in and bought Culpa Innata for 4,99€, despite the fact that it is for 4,99$ in the US - but the only reason is that I was unable to find a place where they sold it in Poland.

I'm only buying from steam if there is a price difference thats reasonably between the $ and the € OR If it's cheaper than retail(no ~€2.. but from €5 onwards) OR if there is no other possibility and the rip-off european price isn't that bad(e.g I'll never buy Flatout Ultimate Carnage even if i couldn't buy it anywhere else)

I suggest doing the same or just not buying at all. I think that will provide a better message to Valve and other publishers instead of a topic thats 60% spam or the same thing every page.

Woutsie
12-27-2008, 12:06 PM
I was going to buy the Eidos Everything Pack but thanks to the $ = €... No thanks :)

Playmaxxi
12-27-2008, 12:13 PM
That NOT ****ing fair!!!
Why +30% for European?
Because we buy more games?
damn!!!

tvangstr0ye
12-27-2008, 12:24 PM
I ain't buying ♥♥♥♥, and neither is any of my friends.

bralmu
12-27-2008, 12:26 PM
Welcome to Sesame Street

1 Dollar = 13 Mexican Pesos
1 Dollar = 91 Japanese Yens
1 Dollar = 6.84 Chinese Yuans
1 Dollar = 1 Euro !!!:confused:
the last time it happens was in 2002.

Good idea
+40% prices just because we are from Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain or Sweden.

Maledictus010
12-27-2008, 12:28 PM
Hmm... With the holiday discounts i am tempted to buy something anyways, but after a little check in the store i'm cured. Had my eye on Crysis but that's now 27€, which is still more than the original $25 (from before the "conversion"). And local retail Crysis is under 20€. L4D is now actually priced fairly when compared to before the conversion, but for some totally weird reason they pulled the demo after the full game was released so that's a no-buy too. Other stuff of interest to me (silverfall, loki, doom3) is all still way above local retail prices (with loki setting the record with a 6€ retail price tag, and rightly so i might add) so this holiday savings stuff isn't doing it for me.
On a side note, i'm beginning to believe the "conversion" is here to stay. No statement, no changes (noteworthy)... This is it i guess. Goodbye steam.

Playmaxxi
12-27-2008, 12:29 PM
Welcome to Sesame Street

1 Dollar = 13 Mexican Pesos
1 Dollar = 91 Japanese Yens
1 Dollar = 6.84 Chinese Yuans
1 Dollar = 1 Euro !!!:confused:
the last time it happens was in 2002.

Good idea
+40% prices just because we are from Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain or Sweden.

Yeah that razzism!
P.S. I'm from italy :P

Unfeared
12-27-2008, 12:30 PM
http://forums.savage2.com/showpost.php?p=240941&postcount=10

Valve sets the prices, not the publishers.

Zamav
12-27-2008, 12:37 PM
http://forums.savage2.com/showpost.php?p=240941&postcount=10

Valve sets the prices, not the publishers.

Wake up and check the 1st post.

Unfeared
12-27-2008, 12:38 PM
Oh, my bad.

MortalC
12-27-2008, 12:41 PM
I have been away on holiday for 1 week and when I come back I see that nothings have changed :(
Can anyone explain this for me? A retail game where I live cost 30 Euros with VAT but on Steam the same game costs 50 Euros without VAT. Now I have been trying for a week to understand how the hell Valve managed to put that price, but I simply can’t understand it. Can anyone else explain it for me?

JediEagle
12-27-2008, 12:48 PM
its 50€ WITH VAT! No need to spread false information ;) I didnt get charged any extra tax at the checkout. I paid what I saw. But yeah, Call of Duty 4, Mass Effect need to go doooooooooown :D

Karma_Police
12-27-2008, 12:49 PM
Oh, my bad.

I think you get a better picture from this thread: http://www.bit-blot.com/?p=191

in short, Valve computed some prices, publishers OK'd them (either by ignorance or greed)

*VeLeRoN*
12-27-2008, 12:52 PM
in short, Valve computed some prices, publishers OK'd them (either by ignorance or greed)

Best summary ever.

MortalC
12-27-2008, 12:53 PM
its 50€ WITH VAT! No need to spread false information ;)

I don’t pay VAT on digital purchases but I do on retail purchases…so as I was saying how can it be 30 Euro with VAT and 50 without VAT…anyone?

JediEagle
12-27-2008, 12:55 PM
I don’t pay VAT on digital purchases but I do on retail purchases…so as I was saying how can it be 30 Euro with VAT and 50 without VAT…anyone?

Oh, Norway? Ok, then. Mea culpa :)

Grgolj
12-27-2008, 01:55 PM
This 1e=1$ stuff also messed up packages.
For example Counter-strike complete is 26.99e but if you buy separate games it costs 8.99+9.99=18.98
I haven't looked for other packages but the situation is probably same.

Phosphor94
12-27-2008, 02:08 PM
I live in Australia Retail games are through the roof(CoD4=$99.95). If i buy a game on steam is the prices shown in Euro or US Dollar??

Haas82
12-27-2008, 02:15 PM
This 1e=1$ stuff also messed up packages.
For example Counter-strike complete is 26.99e but if you buy separate games it costs 8.99+9.99=18.98
I haven't looked for other packages but the situation is probably same.
http://i39.tinypic.com/2lshbvn.jpg
lol FAIL
also notice that dollar sign....

lackoo
12-27-2008, 02:18 PM
I live in Australia Retail games are through the roof(CoD4=$99.95). If i buy a game on steam is the prices shown in Euro or US Dollar??You can't pay in € .

chopstix
12-27-2008, 02:23 PM
http://i39.tinypic.com/2lshbvn.jpg
lol FAIL
also notice that dollar sign....

Many packages seem to be like that. I was considering to pick up Shadowrun cheap, but even their package is way over the price of buying individually.

Steam is having some serious issues with managing their games and pricing, and the fact that it isn't being correct, is scary.

Phosphor94
12-27-2008, 02:28 PM
You can't pay in € .

In my cart i have 4 items and the total is $93.46. Is that in Australian Dollar?? US Dollar?? Euro Dollar??

v@.Li.um
12-27-2008, 02:36 PM
its 50€ WITH VAT! No need to spread false information ;) I didnt get charged any extra tax at the checkout. I paid what I saw. But yeah, Call of Duty 4, Mass Effect need to go doooooooooown :D
The way it was before, it was still cheaper EVEN with VAT.

For example, a 50$ game was about 40€, plus VAT ~45€. Slightly cheaper than in stores. In some cases it was even better.

Krid
12-27-2008, 02:40 PM
Houses are so much cheaper in Mexico. I don't know how land ownders get away with the blatant discrimination of charging more for a house in the New Englans suburbs than they do in Mexico. Discrimination!

That's a physical product that requires working within the local economy. Have you ever tried to ship a house? Yea, didn't think so.

Seriously... if you guys want to see a change and debate the new prices you need to compare how they match up with local retail store prices,

Unfavorably.
Also, Steam has a history of being behind the times when it comes to pricing. Compare US Steam game prices to US Retail prices, and retail wins almost every time.

Saying "cheaper in dollars... discrimination!!!" just makes you look ignorant to basic economic facts.

Ok, so you learned enough in econ to understand the importance of regional differences, great for you. Now, what happens to the supply/demand curve when the supply is infinite? What happens to the profit curve when the marginal production cost is zero?

Steam is a store with a solely online presence. Because it exists as an online entity, it is equidistant from every customer.
This isn't a case of charging two different customers different prices because of the store's location and the local economy, it's a case of charging two different customers different prices based on where they live.

Basically, it's shenanigans on Valve's part.

King Extrem
12-27-2008, 02:41 PM
Feedback on Karma_Police post
Well... It's explained in the first page of this thread, but here goes.

Valve wanted/needed the store to have more currencies, so they decided to start with Europe. Now, their research told them that:

a) All Europeans like to pay more for games, except in the UK.
b) All Europeans use one currency, Except in the UK.
c) All Europeans pay the same VAT, Except in the UK.

So, they compiled their new list of prices, with fair prices for the UK, and 1$ = 1€ for the rest of Europeans, disregarding the different VATs in different countries, and the different currencies. They sent this to the developers/publishers who:



Let me guess, you are from the US? For this is a typical answer for someone from the US that have no FREAKING idea of what is real and what is simply fantasy...

a) We DO NOT want to pay more for anything when we can get it cheaper somewhere else... Don't believe me? Ask people from EU
b) All countries in the EU does NOT use the same currency
c) All countries in the EU have there OWN VAT rate

You are incorrect in all 3 statements...



Facts
- It's NOT legal to treat one part of EU consumers better than another as stated in the EU consumers rights, it has to be fair for everyone.
- VAT varies from country to country in the EU.
- Norway ISN'T member of the EU.
- Norway DOESN'T pay VAT for digital media.
- In the US there are about 304 million people compared to 500 million in the EU, which makes the EU a bigger market.
- Even WITH VAT added to the prices it's still more expensive than the prices in USD + VAT.



Calculations
We take the Edios Collector Pack, the prices before and after the European Local Currency:
Before: 99.99 USD without VAT
After: 99.99 EUR with VAT

I live in Denmark so I'll use Denmark's VAT, which is the highest in the EU, which is 25%.

Current exchange rate:
1 EUR = 1.40595 USD

With USD + VAT the ECP would cost me:
99.99 USD * 1.25 = 124.9875 USD

With EUR prices the VAT is already included and it cost 99.99 EUR, now let's calculate and see what it equals to in USD:
99.99 EUR * 1.40595 (Exchange rate) = 140.5809405 USD

As you can see, it's way more expensive:
140.5809405 USD - 124.9875 USD = 15.5934405 USD

Now let's calculate the MINIMUM price rise for the ECP:
(140.5809405 - 124.9875) / 140.5809405 * 100 = 11.092%

Now explain to me how:
1 USD + 25% VAT = 1 EUR

The real comparison would be:
1 USD + 25% VAT = 0.889081 EUR

Now if the VAT in x country is way lower than this the price rise would be greatly higher.

Note: I've just seen a few game prices have been somewhat fixed! But only somewhat...

- King Extrem

*VeLeRoN*
12-27-2008, 02:45 PM
I think Karma_Police was being ironic...

KayTwoEx
12-27-2008, 02:50 PM
Unfortunately I bought COD5 on Euro-Beta. At least I payed €63,25 for it. When I saw it I thought "What the ****? Are they kidding me?" but now I know that was no joke and it was Steam that made me paying almost the double I would have payed in pysical store with getting just the game without the stuff like handbook etc. I hope the current prices will sink to real €-price. If not, cYa Valve and R.I.P. Steam. :o :o :o

edit:
Another mail sent to European Commission.
Same here.

edit2:
Does Valve even know that we're angry about the prices?

darkradeon
12-27-2008, 03:06 PM
Another mail sent to European Commission.

GiT4x
12-27-2008, 04:04 PM
Another mail sent to European Commission.

This....

And i suggest/hope everyone else does the same.

MAC13DAV
12-27-2008, 04:21 PM
I don't know if anyone pointed that, but I think they should say at the receipt how much VAT is in the price (in percentage and in value) but as far as I know they don't. They only state that price include VAT.

Is there any law that could force them to give that information?

Unshaved
12-27-2008, 04:28 PM
Another mail sent to European Commission.

Recommended! but please, ONLY write about it saying there is a difference in price between £ and €. mentioning how it's unfair that there is a (huge) difference between € and $ isn't going to help us further. We want £=€. or a choice to choose £ as a payment option which almost makes it £=€ seeing how the exchange rate is at the moment.

smooth
12-27-2008, 04:55 PM
They invested so much in order to convince people that they don't need boxes to put on the shelf and I doubt they will throw it away. I had problems buying games with nothing physical and it took me years to start buying digital copies even if they were cheaper.
Where do you guys get your information?

Over here in the US it's always less expensive to buy in the store than on steam. It's even more funny to see people whining about buying Valve games cheaper in the store as if that's some kind of justification for being angry against them...go buy it in the store and put the key into your steam client!

Where did you even learn that Valve considered Steam to be a cheaper platform than retail? Since its beginning it's been touted as a convenience for the users and DRM for Valve; not a cost-based alternative to retail.

I don't know if anyone pointed that, but I think they should say at the receipt how much VAT is in the price (in percentage and in value) but as far as I know they don't. They only state that price include VAT.

Is there any law that could force them to give that information?
ROFL!
Two weeks ago you all were whining about how you couldn't figure out the price of the games because Valve displayed the VAT charges before you had to click on "Confirm" for the purchase!

Do you guys do anything other than whine? Why not go play the games you own...or do you even own any? Maybe after Valve starts giving their games away you'll be happier; actually I bet you'd complain about any bugs even if they gave you the games for free!

Unshaved
12-27-2008, 05:30 PM
Where did you even learn that Valve considered Steam to be a cheaper platform than retail? Since its beginning it's been touted as a convenience for the users and DRM for Valve; not a cost-based alternative to retail.

Wait, what? I clearly remember when they released half-life 2, they had like several packages and they even wrote it down in the announcement that it was cheaper to get the digital version of the package because it didn't include the box and everything around it.

How is it not possible for you to understand that making boxes,printing manuals,burning the games on dvds,shipping the product to 1000s of shops and leaving a little bit of room for vendors to profit from sales costs money. Selling a digital version of the same game and providing bandwith for it to be downloaded is cheaper than all those combined, even if the user decides to redownload a 6GB game 20+ times.

If you even have any logical understanding you'd know it wise for VALVe to sell the game through steam. Making the retail version of their own game cheaper isn't going to help one bit.

Ice_
12-27-2008, 05:34 PM
Steam offers a discount now when Christmas is about, can we Europeans use this offer? No way... sure the games are cheaper now but they would be hell of a lot cheaper if Valve actually *cared* about the European situation... I am still not going to buy stuff through Steam. Buying games even with shipment costs are cheaper than buying through steam!!

Steam is a great application giving us users the ability to install and update our games through their application from any computer which is really nice... when it's expensive though... ♥♥♥♥ it... :cool:

smooth
12-27-2008, 05:34 PM
Wait, what? I clearly remember when they released half-life 2, they had like several packages and they even wrote it down in the announcement that it was cheaper to get the digital version of the package because it didn't include the box and everything around it.

How is it not possible for you to understand that making boxes,printing manuals,burning the games on dvds,shipping the product to 1000s of shops and leaving a little bit of room for vendors to profit from sales costs money. Selling a digital version of the same game and providing bandwith for it to be downloaded is cheaper than all those combined, even if the user decides to redownload a 6GB game 20+ times.

If you even have any logical understanding you'd know it wise for VALVe to sell the game through steam. Making the retail version of their own game cheaper isn't going to help one bit.
Why don't you go and dig that article you remember so clearly and post it here for all of us to benefit from.

Unless you know the cost manufacturing billions of jewel cases and cardboard boxes I suggest you tone down the unsupported point you just raised.

Even on the retail end it's cheaper for me to make a one-off dvd than it is to download 6 gigs of data.

You want to question my logic? Back up your points with facts.

supakillaii
12-27-2008, 05:34 PM
Aww what the ♥♥♥♥ man, VALVe, what did you do? Oh, WHAT DID YOU DO!?

Unshaved
12-27-2008, 05:41 PM
Why don't you go and dig that article you remember so clearly and post it here for all of us to benefit from.

Unless you know the cost manufacturing billions of jewel cases and cardboard boxes I suggest you tone down the unsupported point you just raised.

Even on the retail end it's cheaper for me to make a one-off dvd than it is to download 6 gigs of data.

You want to question my logic? Back up your points with facts.

Well, really I don't feel like looking back in the announcements for a couple of hours searching for it. Because here's even something better:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/the-last-of-the-independents-

from the article to help you a bit:
GamesIndustry.biz spoke to Valve's VP of marketing, Doug Lombardi at a recent EA press event, about the challenges the company has faced, the boost it has given to indie game development and the changing PC market.

and then beneath the question; Q: Why do you think games like Audiosurf do so much better on Steam?
I think that's what gets in the way of [retail publishing], and with Steam there's no disc to burn, so you save that money. There's no box to make, so you save that money, and your shipping is done over the wire which is a lot cheaper than putting stuff on trucks.

Draggeta
12-27-2008, 05:46 PM
Why don't you go and dig that article you remember so clearly and post it here for all of us to benefit from.

...

You want to question my logic? Back up your points with facts.

Don't want to get into the argument, but the post has been posted here in this very thread quite often. Not in the mood to look it up though.

Edit: Not quite the same article, but a similar quote has been posted by the poster before me.

smooth
12-27-2008, 05:50 PM
Well, really I don't feel like looking back in the announcements for a couple of hours searching for it. Because here's even something better:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/the-last-of-the-independents-

from the article to help you a bit:


and then beneath the question; Q: Why do you think games like Audiosurf do so much better on Steam?
We're talking about Valve here, buddy, not indie developers.
Of course it's cheaper for indie developers to choose Valve as a publisher for them as they don't have the volume of mainstream titles.

The discussion is about Valve games, which they control the pricing for.
http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200410/N04.1007.1313.56380.htm

Steam was developed for streamlining patches, DRM, and convenience for end-users.

It was never reported by Valve to be a cheaper alternative to publishing retail. In fact, unless I'm totally off-base, I believe some of the HL2 packages weren't even available at the retail level.

Before you want to question my logic, and then pass it off your ignorance as being too lazy to produce any evidence to back up your point, you should at least get your facts straight.

Don't want to get into the argument, but the post has been posted here in this very thread quite often. Not in the mood to look it up though.

Edit: Not quite the same article, but a similar quote has been posted by the poster before me.
Yeah, same poster and same general faulty argument that indie developers now have an oppportunity to have exposure that would otherwise cost them billions of dollars. Publishers like EA and Ubi soak that cost already, they don't pick up small time programmers very often because they can't recoup the costs. That's not the same as when EA publishes Valve's titles.

Yammo
12-27-2008, 05:51 PM
...Do you guys do anything other than whine?

Ad Hominem: Complaining does not equal "whining".



...Why not go play the games you own...

Ignoratio elenchi: Why don't you?



...or do you even own any?...

Appeal to Ridicule / Ad hominem: This matters, how?



...Maybe after Valve starts giving their games away you'll be happier;...

Ignoratio elenchi: Ofcourse we would love the games for free, but this is not what is asked for in this thread.



...actually I bet you'd complain about any bugs even if they gave you the games for free!...

Non sequitur & Ad hominem: Even if a person were to complain about a free product not having promised effect, it does not make them a bad person.


----------
Before making conclusions as to the character of the people who post on this thread I would advice you to read post #1. Many are quite agitated from being tricked into paying up to 40% more than they intended buy the bait-and-switch tactic of Steam.

(Although, it does take spending your own hard-earned money to care.)

smooth
12-27-2008, 06:00 PM
Bait and switch?
What are you on about?

Whining vs. complaining is repeatedly posting the same "issue" over and over.
It is complaining to Valve about not including VAT in the purchase price, and then two weeks later complaining to Valve about the product page being higher because VAT is now included in the price.

Nice try, buddy, but there's nothing personal about calling constant complaining about something and then incessant complaining about the solution you asked for as "whining"

Here's some articles from 2004...since you guys were too "lazy" (your words, not mine) to do it yourself:

http://forums.allgames.com/showthread.php?t=2349

Screw my Gamestop preorder. I'm getting the Gold edition! Or maybe Silver. Whichever I can afford. I just want to play HL2 most of all.
I like Penny Arcade's latest post about this:
I posted it very late, but it's possible that you saw it already: Valve's Gabe Newell has made the purchase options for Half-Life 2 a matter of public record. The "subscription" option suggested last year around this time seems to have evaporated. Outside of that, there's a couple things that draw the eye.

One, while there are currently no retail options that include Day of Defeat: Source - a game we could reasonably have assumed was in development - there are fully two Steam options which include it. We don't know how much those options actually cost, but it seems like even odds you're better off getting it this way than buying it down the road when it hits retail or emerges in Steam. That's just my belief, and it's not based on anything. Well, except common ♥♥♥♥ing sense.

Two, and this is the big one, take a look at those asterisks that denote which items will be available when Half-Life 2 is released, and which ones you'll be able to play immediately. Interesting, huh?


http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5329

I have not heard that it will be available for Steam earlier, but i do know that it wont be cheaper on Steam.


Those are the words and impressions of those of old enough to remember what was going on in 2004.

Ice_
12-27-2008, 06:01 PM
We're talking about Valve here, buddy, not indie developers.

I totally agree here... S2games are a perfect example of this, they lowered their price to compensate the European customers because of Valve's so called "bug" (I'd call it more like money making).

SynTerro
12-27-2008, 06:12 PM
Bait and switch?
What are you on about?

Whining vs. complaining is repeatedly posting the same "issue" over and over.
It is complaining to Valve about not including VAT in the purchase price, and then two weeks later complaining to Valve about the product page being higher because VAT is now included in the price.

Nice try, buddy, but there's nothing personal about calling constant complaining about something and then incessant complaining about the solution you asked for as "whining"


What about those countries that are not supposed to pay VAT taxes and also got higher prices i.e. Norway. Norwegians must now pay same amount as rest of Europe included VAT taxes.

... and read carefully the first post prices are now higher than the old prices including VAT tax added.

Anyway why do you care if you are happy with the new prices(..or most likely it does'nt affect you) why don't you stop whining and trolling and get a life.

Unshaved
12-27-2008, 06:19 PM
Bait and switch?
What are you on about?

Whining vs. complaining is repeatedly posting the same "issue" over and over.
It is complaining to Valve about not including VAT in the purchase price, and then two weeks later complaining to Valve about the product page being higher because VAT is now included in the price.

Nice try, buddy, but there's nothing personal about calling constant complaining about something and then incessant complaining about the solution you asked for as "whining"

Here's some articles from 2004...since you guys were too "lazy" (your words, not mine) to do it yourself:

http://forums.allgames.com/showthread.php?t=2349


http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5329


Those are the words and impressions of those of old enough to remember what was going on in 2004.

From the second link the impression i get is that they put up the option of getting a box or getting the steam version and all are talking about that they'd like the box and are reluctant to try the new program called "Steam". Why would they even think about it, let alone, post it on the forums if the retail would be cheaper? that'd be a win/win situation for them.

Also from the same thread:
I want to buy the bo9x, but dunno if I can be assed. If the steam way is reliable so I can just keep a password or summat to download my copy of hl2 again if I format or somthing. Then I will do it. Just burn it onto a CD. I can also see the download version costing less.

Sasquatchsliper
12-27-2008, 06:25 PM
Before Steam "currencies" update :

1$ (on Steampowered) => 0,85* € (everything included : VAT + € to $ bank's fee)

*(average calculated on 12 purchases through 2 years)

-----

After Steam "currencies" update :

1$ (on Steampowered) => 1€ (VAT and € to $ included)

=> So where did the 15% go ? (FYI 100 - 85 = 15)

The electric bill, extra bank fee, currency rate insurance, pizzas ? I guess it's classified information... :)

ps : with or without anchovy ? I'll keep it secret :D

smooth
12-27-2008, 06:29 PM
From the second link the impression i get is that they put up the option of getting a box or getting the steam version and all are talking about that they'd like the box and are reluctant to try the new program called "Steam". Why would they even think about it, let alone, post it on the forums if the retail would be cheaper? that'd be a win/win situation for them.

Also from the same thread:
Yes, good point. From the same thread someone else made the same inaccurate conclusion you did...that the lack of the box would cost less than the steam version.

That's why I posted the releases from Valve itself along with end-users' comments to people speculating about pricing.

And since it's now obvious you weren't around when HL2 launched, I'll explain it in better detail for you: those packages were not available in retail stores. Hence, Valve distinguishing between collector's edition and Gold and Silver packages.


The reason we were all talking and posting about it was because we were worried about steam becoming the new DRM. That was the only consideration as you can see from people posting they didn't care about the pricing as long as they got to play.

If you were around back then, which it really doesn't seem like you were, we were worried about a lot of the same stuff newer users are today...stuff like not being able to log in and whether steam would ever go permanently down.

Steam has changed and improved drastically over the years. Most of those initial concerns are no longer posted because Starforce and SecuROM are so prevalent and much more intrusive. Some older users actually still harbor this slight distrust of Valve and do hope for a steamless way to play their games, but much less than before.

There was also the fact that computers were significantly less powerful than they are today. So a lot of us didn't like the fact of extra background programs running.

Also, if you go and read the history, you'll find that a lot of us were right in our reservations. The HL2 launch was a fiasco and upset a significant portion of the community. The stuff people enjoy today, all the little goodies that steam does for you, were added later on to sweeten the taint of Valve's DRM.

Like I said earlier, this is all publicly available. I'm not making it up; I was there. I was a gamer and well into my adult years in early 2000. If you weren't, then go read it rather than sloughing it off as being too lazy to look it up. I'm not here to argue with you in the hopes of winning anything out of the deal. If you don't believe me, then fine. But you're wrong and us older users who were there when steam launched can see by your arguments you don't really know what you're talking about.

Balerion
12-27-2008, 06:36 PM
Those are the words and impressions of those of old enough to remember what was going on in 2004.
Old enough to remember 2004? Eh? If you are proud you remember 2004 then I guess you are not very old, right?

Look buddy, this obviously doesn't affect you, so why don't you move over to some other thread?
I'd like to see how smart you'd be if it was the other way around and YOU'd be the one who'd have to pay 40% more for a digitally distributed product. (no covers, no shipping fees, no printing, no cds/dvds, just data)
I bet you'd be one of the first to "whine" about it. Or maybe not, maybe you are not even earning your money and are getting them from parents so you have no idea what it means to be charged 40% more for no reason.

So just, Go. Away. This doesn't concern you obviously.

smooth
12-27-2008, 06:43 PM
What about those countries that are not supposed to pay VAT taxes and also got higher prices i.e. Norway. Norwegians must now pay same amount as rest of Europe included VAT taxes.

... and read carefully the first post prices are now higher than the old prices including VAT tax added.

Anyway why do you care if you are happy with the new prices(..or most likely it does'nt affect you) why don't you stop whining and trolling and get a life.
I'm not the one whining, bro. You need to look back through the forums and cross-reference the people in this thread who were posting a few weeks ago and hammering Valve for not using localized pricing. Those are the people you should be upset at, not me for telling them they brought this on themselves by their request.

What did you think was going to happen?
As far as I know, my friends in Canada have always had to pay the same "price" as my copies of games, regardless of currency exchanges. If a game is $60 dollars over here in the US, then it's $60 Can dollars across the border. Were they upset? Yes. Was it fair? I can see how some would say it was not.

But that's also the way it has always been. Aussies have been getting jacked for years when a game launches over here for $49.99 and if it's even available to them, they have to pay $130 dollars for it over there. Retailers and Etailers will do what they will--and that will be whatever brings them the most profit. What they absolutely will not do is wake up each morning and check the currency exchange rates and change all their price tags to reflect the same pricing of a game being sold in another country.

If you grew up in the digital age, I can understand how that seems strange given that the world is a lot smaller than it was even 10 years ago. But that doesn't change the fact that what you're asking Valve to do is something that is not generally done in any industry, let alone the gaming industry. Game publishers aren't even monolithic. Each country has its own publishing arm and they set the prices individually or choose to release a game or not (cf. Ubi).

I don't know what else you want me to tell you...other than I have a life and I'm not sure what you read from me that indicates otherwise.

Old enough to remember 2004? Eh? If you are proud you remember 2004 then I guess you are not very old, right?

Look buddy, this obviously doesn't affect you, so why don't you move over to some other thread?
I'd like to see how smart you'd be if it was the other way around and YOU'd be the one who'd have to pay 40% more for a digitally distributed product. (no covers, no shipping fees, no printing, no cds/dvds, just data)
I bet you'd be one of the first to "whine" about it. Or maybe not, maybe you are not even earning your money and are getting them from parents so you have no idea what it means to be charged 40% more for no reason.

So just, Go. Away. This doesn't concern you obviously.
I already posted earlier that for those of you who are unaware of this fact, Steam games are generally higher priced than their retail counterparts. For US users, this whole "it should cost less than the store" is not even relevant because stores have sales all the time and reduce prices to get rid of stock. I can't think of a single time that Steam has offered a game cheaper than retail when it wasn't on sale...and usually not even then.

If you had bothered to read the response I posted that to, the guy said he distinctly remembered Valve claiming that Steam would offer games cheaper than retail. They have never stated any such thing, and in response I posted discussions from 2004 backing that up.

But your arguments are also about whether you should pay the same or less than us US customers. Well, whatever, when I buy parts for my BMW I certainly do have to pay out my nose to get what I need and I don't go whining to customer service about the unfairness of it all because they would: a. tell me to go drive something else and b. not care much

marekfreak
12-27-2008, 06:59 PM
I am kind of shocked that this matter has still not been clarified or resolved by Valve, especially during the critical X-mas season.

To be absolutely honest, my faith and trust in Valve/Steam have been shattered. It is going to take me sometime to return to Steam and for Valve to once again earn my trust as an EU customer, before I ever consider ever purchasing another game via Steam.

High Five to Valve for this major screw-up, which any sane minded company would do to resolve ASAP. OR do my congrats belong to the publishers, who put on the pressure and had their way to set this anal pricing for the European region in order to favor retails sales in EUROs during these "dire" times for the dollar OR simply to turn the tide to Retail during the X-mas season.

...oh and kudos to Valve for breaking a few EU laws and WTO trade agreements along the way as well.

FYI: I bought C&C: RED Alert 3 and Crysis: Warhead on the 24/12/2008 in Retail. C&C RA 3 is not yet available on Steam, but then again Crysis Warhead is...so tell me why would I want to pay a 60% higher price on Steam compared to retail.

And one poster mentioned that in the US retail prices are actually cheaper than on Steam. OMG! Looks like you are also inadvertently alienating your primary market Valve. Time to wake up peeps. If you haven't noticed, there is a bit of a ongoing financial crunch right on your doorstep. I still don't get how prices even compared to Amazon as a lot higher on Steam...and Amazon had some fantastic sales and ton of business came their way for X-mas season.

marekfreak
12-27-2008, 07:10 PM
What they absolutely will not do is wake up each morning and check the currency exchange rates and change all their price tags to reflect the same pricing of a game being sold in another country.

If you grew up in the digital age, I can understand how that seems strange given that the world is a lot smaller than it was even 10 years ago. But that doesn't change the fact that what you're asking Valve to do is something that is not generally done in any industry, let alone the gaming industry. Game publishers aren't even monolithic. Each country has its own publishing arm and they set the prices individually or choose to release a game or not (cf. Ubi).

But your arguments are also about whether you should pay the same or less than us US customers. Well, whatever, when I buy parts for my BMW I certainly do have to pay out my nose to get what I need and I don't go whining to customer service about the unfairness of it all because they would: a. tell me to go drive something else and b. not care much

You are gravely mistaken there. In this digital age, companies review currency and exchange rates on a daily basis. You ever heard of a hedge fund?

I worked in a number of online/web-based companies and trust me, exchange rates play a HUGE role on a daily basis in both predicting trends, forecasting and comparative analysis. One company I worked for, adjusted prices on a daily basis based on the exchange rate AND prices of their competitors. And when you want a piece of the cake...you are watching the mid-market rates like a hawk...when you setup a hedge account with your bank, then you are sweating blood and ♥♥♥♥ting bricks for that period.

Draggeta
12-27-2008, 07:10 PM
@ smooth

Ok, I might have read it wrong and if so, my bad. Should have remembered it better. BTW, I was there in 2004, even have the old email login :)

However, I do find it quite strange that Steam, despite not having some fixed cost associated with shipping etc., charges us more on old games then buying a newly released game on day one. Not talking about console, but PC. Those tend to be between €40,- and €45,- here in stores and €30-40 online.

Second, I know some companies who do adjust the rates. If not daily, they do it on checkout. Bought a few laptops from a Sager reseller and they updated the prices for EU customers quite often.

MortalC
12-27-2008, 07:11 PM
I'm not the one whining, bro. You need to look back through the forums and cross-reference the people in this thread who were posting a few weeks ago and hammering Valve for not using localized pricing. Those are the people you should be upset at, not me for telling them they brought this on themselves by their request.

What did you think was going to happen?
As far as I know, my friends in Canada have always had to pay the same "price" as my copies of games, regardless of currency exchanges. If a game is $60 dollars over here in the US, then it's $60 Can dollars across the border. Were they upset? Yes. Was it fair? I can see how some would say it was not.

But that's also the way it has always been. Aussies have been getting jacked for years when a game launches over here for $49.99 and if it's even available to them, they have to pay $130 dollars for it over there. Retailers and Etailers will do what they will--and that will be whatever brings them the most profit. What they absolutely will not do is wake up each morning and check the currency exchange rates and change all their price tags to reflect the same pricing of a game being sold in another country.

If you grew up in the digital age, I can understand how that seems strange given that the world is a lot smaller than it was even 10 years ago. But that doesn't change the fact that what you're asking Valve to do is something that is not generally done in any industry, let alone the gaming industry. Game publishers aren't even monolithic. Each country has its own publishing arm and they set the prices individually or choose to release a game or not (cf. Ubi).

I don't know what else you want me to tell you...other than I have a life and I'm not sure what you read from me that indicates otherwise.


I already posted earlier that for those of you who are unaware of this fact, Steam games are generally higher priced than their retail counterparts. For US users, this whole "it should cost less than the store" is not even relevant because stores have sales all the time and reduce prices to get rid of stock. I can't think of a single time that Steam has offered a game cheaper than retail when it wasn't on sale...and usually not even then.

If you had bothered to read the response I posted that to, the guy said he distinctly remembered Valve claiming that Steam would offer games cheaper than retail. They have never stated any such thing, and in response I posted discussions from 2004 backing that up.

But your arguments are also about whether you should pay the same or less than us US customers. Well, whatever, when I buy parts for my BMW I certainly do have to pay out my nose to get what I need and I don't go whining to customer service about the unfairness of it all because they would: a. tell me to go drive something else and b. not care much

As fare as I can remember the difference between US retail and US steam was about 10 dollars in average. You se most of us aren’t really that annoyed with pricing being a bit above retail, but there is a big difference between 7 Euros more witch is what you pay in average and 20 Euros(almost 30 dollars) more witch is what I have to pay. When prices are 50% + higher for new games, than they are retail we feel that it is time to let them know that enough is enough.

Of course you can always find games where the difference is even bigger both in the US and Europe but my point was to post at an average for the games I remembered.

When it comes to the localized prizing issue that was mainly UK residents that where complaining about that and they got what they wanted, but all of use that where happy with the old way got screwed as well.

chopstix
12-27-2008, 07:14 PM
I already posted earlier that for those of you who are unaware of this fact, Steam games are generally higher priced than their retail counterparts. For US users, this whole "it should cost less than the store" is not even relevant because stores have sales all the time and reduce prices to get rid of stock. I can't think of a single time that Steam has offered a game cheaper than retail when it wasn't on sale...and usually not even then.

If you had bothered to read the response I posted that to, the guy said he distinctly remembered Valve claiming that Steam would offer games cheaper than retail. They have never stated any such thing, and in response I posted discussions from 2004 backing that up.

But your arguments are also about whether you should pay the same or less than us US customers. Well, whatever, when I buy parts for my BMW I certainly do have to pay out my nose to get what I need and I don't go whining to customer service about the unfairness of it all because they would: a. tell me to go drive something else and b. not care much

I don't know where you shop, but I wished I lived there. I am from the States, and new releases are always the same price as on Steam unless you find a special promotion going on somewhere. It is very rarely more or less. When it comes to older games, it's very back and forth. Sometimes Steam is cheaper, some times it is not.

Regardless, I think you are missing the larger issue at hand. This is about Valve unfairly raising prices overall. They paid absolutely no attention to conversion rates. This is causing people to pay 20-40% more than they normally were all together. They are even forcing some countries to use a currency that is not even a part of their economy.

Do you see this as fair? Would you honestly not care if Valve changed the currency for US users, further raising prices? Do you really support your own friends in Canada having to pay more because Valve doesn't care to figure in currency conversion?

If this is how Steam wants to keep things, that is their choice. However, they will be losing an extremely large market. I know I won't be supporting it as much until they get their act together, whether this affects me or not. It affects many of my friends though who are losing out right now, because prices increased so greatly overnight for no reason.

Lastly, we get it, you are this awesomely old Steam user who has been around for a while. Not sure how many more times you are going to mention that and toss it into people's faces. I've been playing Valve games before Steam, I wonder if that means I top you. :eek: Clearly it doesn't, but hopefully you see the absurdity of constantly pointing this out. Please discuss this in a more mature manner, instead of making Americans look worse in this thread.

marekfreak
12-27-2008, 07:17 PM
What they absolutely will not do is wake up each morning and check the currency exchange rates and change all their price tags to reflect the same pricing of a game being sold in another country.

If you grew up in the digital age, I can understand how that seems strange given that the world is a lot smaller than it was even 10 years ago. But that doesn't change the fact that what you're asking Valve to do is something that is not generally done in any industry, let alone the gaming industry. Game publishers aren't even monolithic. Each country has its own publishing arm and they set the prices individually or choose to release a game or not (cf. Ubi).

But your arguments are also about whether you should pay the same or less than us US customers. Well, whatever, when I buy parts for my BMW I certainly do have to pay out my nose to get what I need and I don't go whining to customer service about the unfairness of it all because they would: a. tell me to go drive something else and b. not care much

You are gravely mistaken there. In this digital age, companies review currency and exchange rates on a daily basis. You ever heard of a hedge fund?

I worked in a number of online/web-based companies and trust me, exchange rates play a HUGE role on a daily basis in both predicting trends, forecasting and comparative analysis. One company I worked for, adjusted prices on a daily basis based on the exchange rate AND prices of their competitors. And when you want a piece of the cake...you are watching the mid-market rates like a hawk...when you setup a hedge account with your bank, then you are sweating blood for that period AND there is always a lot to lose.

As a prime example, look at this thread, with over 200 000 views and thousands of concerned posters.

Remember, that companies are not the only ones following the currency rates...but more so do your customers. EU is a prime example with so many member states across the region and other countries not part of the EU. Trust me, you are not European if you don't check and compare exchange rates on a regular basis. Its also the daily bread and butter of hundreds of business over here.

This issue is simply snow-balling and Valve ought to do something about it sooner than later.

smooth
12-27-2008, 07:22 PM
You are gravely mistaken there. In this digital age, companies review currency and exchange rates on a daily basis. You ever heard of a hedge fund?

I worked in a number of online/web-based companies and trust me, exchange rates play a HUGE role on a daily basis in both predicting trends, forecasting and comparative analysis. One company I worked for, adjusted prices on a daily basis based on the exchange rate AND prices of their competitors. And when you want a piece of the cake...you are watching the mid-market rates like a hawk...when you setup a hedge account with your bank, then you are sweating blood and ♥♥♥♥ting bricks for that period.
Come on man, we're not talking about financials or mom and pop shops who can't match the volume of larger trans-national corps...keep it in context! I'm banking on common sense here from people reading my posts. We're talking about regular retailer/etailer storefronts in relation to games.

Amazon and iTunes eventually set up alternate storefronts. I'm not sure what their pricing scheme was before they did that, but they don't check your IP and cross reference that before you click on "purchase" and give you the exact exchange rate for your local currency. And they certainly are *not* changing prices day to day...you can see that much by walking down the street and looking in any storefront or cruising the web. If that were the case, Valve, Staples, Circuit City's prices would fluctuate daily...they don't.

Completely different when the commodity itself is currency. Seriously dude, I can't believe you even tried to make that argument.

As fare as I can remember the difference between US retail and US steam was about 10 dollars in average. You se most of us aren’t really that annoyed with pricing being a bit above retail, but there is a big difference between 7 Euros more witch is what you pay in average and 20 Euros(almost 30 dollars) more witch is what I have to pay. When prices are 50% + higher for new games, than they are retail we feel that it is time to let them know that enough is enough.

Of course you can always find games where the difference is even bigger both in the US and Europe but my point was to post at an average for the games I remembered.

When it comes to the localized prizing issue that was mainly UK residents that where complaining about that and they got what they wanted, but all of use that where happy with the old way got screwed as well.
Yes, I hear you guys. Most of the people in this thread are posting reasonable comments. Take a look at when I finally added my thoughts to the stream. I have been reading the hundred+ pages up until then. My comments were directed at the people who complained before and continue to complain now. If you look back at my first post in this thread, I think you'll see that to be the case. But if it wasn't clear, I'm clarifying that with this post right now and sorry if it wasn't earlier.

I don't know where you shop, but I wished I lived there. I am from the States, and new releases are always the same price as on Steam unless you find a special promotion going on somewhere. It is very rarely more or less. When it comes to older games, it's very back and forth. Sometimes Steam is cheaper, some times it is not.

Regardless, I think you are missing the larger issue at hand. This is about Valve unfairly raising prices overall. They paid absolutely no attention to conversion rates. This is causing people to pay 20-40% more than they normally were all together. They are even forcing some countries to use a currency that is not even a part of their economy.

Do you see this as fair? Would you honestly not care if Valve changed the currency for US users, further raising prices? Do you really support your own friends in Canada having to pay more because Valve doesn't care to figure in currency conversion?

If this is how Steam wants to keep things, that is their choice. However, they will be losing an extremely large market. I know I won't be supporting it as much until they get their act together, whether this affects me or not. It affects many of my friends though who are losing out right now, because prices increased so greatly overnight for no reason.

Lastly, we get it, you are this awesomely old Steam user who has been around for a while. Not sure how many more times you are going to mention that and toss it into people's faces. I've been playing Valve games before Steam, I wonder if that means I top you. :eek: Clearly it doesn't, but hopefully you see the absurdity of constantly pointing this out. Please discuss this in a more mature manner, instead of making Americans look worse in this thread.
I live in California. Name a top release right now and show me where it's cheaper to purchase on steam at non-sale prices than retail...hell, most of the holiday sales just barely got the steam prices down to retail for most games.

Despite what you're saying, and oddly enough as a US customer so I don't know how you can tell me what the EU argument is, the posts I was responded to *were* about the fact that it's more expensive on steam than retail. If you missed those posts, hit on *any* page in this thread and you'll see someone post that exact argument. Some have even whined about the difference between 5 bucks and 5 euros in regards to Bioshock!

And since you didn't get this the first time I posted it, I *did* not say antyhing about how long I've been a steam customer. Try reading comprehension if you're going to attack a post of mine! Those points were in response to someone saying that Valve launched steam on the promise of cheaper prices than retail. I was pointing out that those of us who have been around since the launch of steam know that Valve promised no such thing.

You got something to dispute that? Didn't think so...especially since you come swinging your e-peen around trying to prove me wrong and start it off with the ludicrous statement that people aren't even asking for prices cheaper than retail. That's *exactly* what they're doing and the fact they are still arguing digital distribution is inherently cheaper than boxes/jewel cases illustrates what they're doing despite what you think.

BTW, what do you mean they gave "no attention to conversion rates"? That demonstrates a total lack of comprehension of how currency rates operate. They aren't one-time things, lol. Valve very well could have used the current exchange rates when they made the prices but they would have been different 1 minute later. You really should learn a thing or two about trade between economies if you're going to criticize a poster or company on its economic policies.

Draggeta
12-27-2008, 07:26 PM
It has been stated before, but the problem is not about games being cheaper than retail, even though we would like it to. No matter how much we complain about US/EU difference, it's completely in Valve's/the publisher's right to do so.

It's not about Valve increasing the price by 20 or more percent (legal), not about lowered prices for UK members(legal), it IS about not letting EU members buy from UK store (illegal), it IS about charging VAT in countries with no VAT (probably illegal, unless the prices are actually set higher there by Valve).

Malteserr
12-27-2008, 07:33 PM
Thank you so much Valve for making games 30% more expensive for me.

MAC13DAV
12-27-2008, 07:33 PM
ROFL!
Two weeks ago you all were whining about how you couldn't figure out the price of the games because Valve displayed the VAT charges before you had to click on "Confirm" for the purchase!

Do you guys do anything other than whine? Why not go play the games you own...or do you even own any? Maybe after Valve starts giving their games away you'll be happier; actually I bet you'd complain about any bugs even if they gave you the games for free!

What I meant, if we have the same gross price for each EU country that means in each of them there is different net price. That means, according to ECC law, we can choose in weach EU country we want to buy (read - where the net price is lower) and add a VAT to it. It would not make any changes for people in countries where the VAT is high, but it would mean a lot for those where it is low or nonexistent.

And to be honest, I liked that prices was given in net value, and then VAT was added at checkout.

marekfreak
12-27-2008, 07:42 PM
Come on man, we're not talking about financials...keep it in context! I'm banking on common sense here from people reading my posts. We're talking about regular retailer/etailer storefronts in relation to games.

Amazon and iTunes eventually set up alternate storefronts. I'm not sure what their pricing scheme was before they did that, but they don't check your IP and cross reference that before you click on "purchase" and give you the exact exchange rate for your local currency. And they certainly are *not* changing prices day to day...you can see that much by walking down the street and looking in any storefront or cruising the web. If that were the case, Valve, Staples, Circuit City's prices would fluctuate daily...they don't.

Completely different when the commodity itself is currency. Seriously dude, I can't believe you even tried to make that argument.

You are again making assumptions. Common sense does not equal gritty reality. There are tons of examples and reference in relation to both retail and online in this thread. And don't forget, its the X-mas season and companies will do a lot to drive as much business towards them during this period...

You should look at the retail figures in Europe. Man its even been posted in the media on a regular basis. You know how much business has been directed to the US from the EU with the depreciation of the USD? You know how many companies in Europe updated their prices, favorably and even within less than a week ESPECIALLY retail AND yes tons of business update their prices on a daily basis (pre-order say anything to you) and generated additional business due to the low $ - Euro exchange rate. You know what even a psychological effect of 5% - 10% decrease on prices has on say you and me, the average consumer. Factor in the media bombarding us with currency info, price trends, consumer shopping habits changing, best countries to shop in retail/online etc, etc. This is the EU dude..the frickin' EU. If can buy cheap from neighboring Austria, I am sure as hell gonna do it and as often as I possibly can.

Sales are through the roof for the EU in 2008, from retailers, online stores, delivery and post services...2008 was for many retailers & on-line stores the ultimate wet dream come true.

Even more so, with this financial crisis, businesses and consumers have been a lot more aware and sensitive towards currency exchange rates and especially influenced due to the coverage in the media. I would confidently go as far to say that 2008 was paradise for the average consumer. Hell even I benefited immensely and made some really fantastic purchases this year. More than usual.

Then again, who knows what internal policies govern some companies. I think Steam and probably every online gambling company is checking your location according to web protocol and debit/credit card numbers and blacklisting these cards depending your location. This is wrong and illegal in so many ways this approach is always dependent on "internal policies".

..but anyway not all Companies may change their prices daily, but remember, many companies buy at wholesaler prices and if volume will increase sales and drive in additional business, they will lower prices, even if it means changing prices from Monday to Tuesday (and they will not forget to make sure that you know about it). Clothing retailers have it the worse though, due to seasonal trends and the huge amount of inventory they buy for a particular period, I really don't envy them. But then again we're not talking about clothing here are we?

smooth
12-27-2008, 07:51 PM
But we're not takling about clothing here are we?
No, we aren't. Read my initial post and the ones following and you'll see that my point was made toward the users who hammered Valve or not offering localized pricing when the exchange rate would favor their purchases, and now that no longer being the case, they are jumping in the bandwagon on the backs of legitimate complaints made by other EU customer they effectively screwed and crying that they can't get the best prices once again.

The point is that those people are not going to be satisfied no matter what Valve does and even go so far as to call for a boycott of Steam for a $.45 cent difference between some games.

That's just whining. If you can't understand that point, I'm not sure if you just want to argue in an attempt to win an argument on the internet. But if you're trying to educate me about how the real world works, rest assured I'm far more aware of it than people who are going to ask Valve to change their pricing structure and web programming every week!

I can only assume Valve is working on a way to fix the valid issues people are raising...that's been the case so far, hasn't it? Or are you honestly suggesting that Valve is just out to screw millions of customers...er, actually themselves since they aren't making sales?

If case you don't remember, go back a few weeks ago and look at the titles of threads like "Valve is extorting UK customers" and "Valve is dishonest" because they put VAT at the end of the purchase sequence before the customer hit "confirm."

chopstix
12-27-2008, 08:01 PM
I live in California. Name a top release right now and show me where it's cheaper to purchase on steam at non-sale prices than retail...hell, most of the holiday sales just barely got the steam prices down to retail for most games.

Obviously you are not reading my posts, and simply looking to argue. I never said they were cheaper. I said they were often the same, and very rare to find games costing more or less on Steam, unless of course a retail store is running a promotion or vice versa. Why do you have me wanting to find a top release right now that is cheaper? Just looking to argue for no reason, since I said they ran about the same?

Despite what you're saying, and oddly enough as a US customer so I don't know how you can tell me what the EU argument is, the posts I was responded to *were* about the fact that it's more expensive on steam than retail.

So because i am a US customer, I don't know anything about this? Then what are you doing here? You are one too. :confused: My argument comes from my friends who are not even a part of the EU and being forced to use the Euro, when the games aren't even being calculated with valid exchange rates. $1 does not equal €1.

Didn't think so...especially since you come swinging your e-peen around trying to prove me wrong and start it off with the ludicrous statement that people aren't even asking for prices cheaper than retail.

Sorry to disappoint but I'm not even a guy, thus I really don't have one to swing around unlike yourself. And yes, the people I know from Europe at least want equal and/or reasonable prices. Currently there is absolutely no reason to use Steam. Valve will be the one losing out in the end.


BTW, what do you mean they gave "no attention to conversion rates"? That demonstrates a total lack of comprehension of how currency rates operate. They aren't one-time things, lol. Valve very well could have used the current exchange rates when they made the prices but they would have been different 1 minute later. You really should learn a thing or two about trade between economies if you're going to criticize a poster or company on its economic policies.

Obviously you aren't getting the point and again just looking to troll these posts and not have a reasonable discussion. Yes, I know rates change constantly. So, does that mean we should stop caring all together? Screw it, let's just charge other countries unfairly, what do we care? That's pretty much what we are doing right now.

How about instead, pricing the current games fairly in regards to the current rate. Then, updating them on periodic bases? I really don't think people would complain about that. They are back to paying reasonable prices, instead of having Valve slap them in the face with absurd prices.

Not even sure what you are after any more in this thread, instead of looking to argue constantly. How about discussing and working towards a solution, instead of calling all of Europe "whiners?" Surely you wouldn't be happy if Steam just started playing with pricing and currency and it directly affected you. What would be the point of the service at all anymore if Valve doesn't at least try to provide reasonable prices?

marekfreak
12-27-2008, 08:08 PM
No, we aren't. Read my initial post and the ones following and you'll see that my point was made toward the users who hammered Valve or not offering localized pricing when the exchange rate would favor their purchases, and now that no longer being the case, they are jumping in the bandwagon on the backs of legitimate complaints made by other EU customer they effectively screwed and crying that they can't get the best prices once again.

The point is that those people are not going to be satisfied no matter what Valve does and even go so far as to call for a boycott of Steam for a $.45 cent difference between some games.

That's just whining. If you can't understand that point, I'm not sure if you just want to argue in an attempt to win an argument on the internet. But if you're trying to educate me about how the real world works, rest assured I'm far more aware of it than people who are going to ask Valve to change their pricing structure and web programming every week!

I can only assume Valve is working on a way to fix the valid issues people are raising...that's been the case so far, hasn't it? Or are you honestly suggesting that Valve is just out to screw millions of customers...er, actually themselves since they aren't making sales?

If case you don't remember, go back a few weeks ago and look at the titles of threads like "Valve is extorting UK customers" and "Valve is dishonest" because they put VAT at the end of the purchase sequence before the customer hit "confirm."


Fair enough, I am not looking to argue and I admit I was not aware there was an issue with localized pricing. I've only just heard about some EU Beta store and such. But in the EU and many other countries, by law the prices have to be displayed with VAT, prior to purchase. The EU is strict in this regard.

..BUUUUUUUUUUUUT when the localized prices are 60% to 70% higher than retail and USD prices, then something is definitely fubar with Valve. Savage has been the only company to react and correct the pricing on Steam. Kudos to them. And there has been no reaction from other publishers and its not like people are not talking.

But, it is fair to say Valve has already screwed millions of paying customers from the EU and during the peak X-mas season of all periods when we all have our precious X-mas bonuses to spend. Not a very bright move from Valve, especially the uproar it has caused and what have we heard from them...nada. Not a word. And what has Valve done to alleviate this situation. Nothing. And what does it look like Valve will do. Nothing.

And you want to know whats a real slap in the face. Their X-mas 50% - 70% deals, which are still 60% higher than retail and any other stores, where I can buy the same games offered on Steam for much lower prices.

I do not know, which individual/company is advising Valve on pricing and tax laws within the EU and who decides on their internal policies, but they need a serious spanking. I am going to voice my opinion with my wallet and I hope all EU customers follow suit.

smooth
12-27-2008, 08:10 PM
Obviously you are not reading my posts, and simply looking to argue.
No, the reason I said go find one is that I was informing the EU customer base that steam customers in the US pay the same or more than retail versions of the games. We buy for convenience, not price considerations.

I made that point because of someone telling me that the whole idea of steam was to give customers a cheaper alternative to retail purchases. That is not true. I backed this up with Valve's own pricing scheme on release of steam, US customers' perspectives from the time period, and the fact that even today new releases are the same price or higher than retail pricing. Old releases are always cheaper at retail stores, except on deep discount days.

You challenged that assertion, so I said find a new or old release that is cheaper on steam than retail; you can't because it's not the case. I am definitely not arguing to argue.

Like I wrote earlier, go look up my first posts in this thread. Here they are for your convenience since you couldn't be bothered to do so...even while you accuse me of not reading your posts, not getting the point, or trolling. Why don't you do yourself a favor and look up who I was responding to so you can stop saying inaccurate things like I'm accusing all non-US customers of being whiners or whatever. I've even posted more than once now that some of them have legit reasons to be upset...


I suspect then we'd see a glut of posts complaining about being charged the bank surcharge to convert the currency...

Originally Posted by Stilgar View Post
They invested so much in order to convince people that they don't need boxes to put on the shelf and I doubt they will throw it away. I had problems buying games with nothing physical and it took me years to start buying digital copies even if they were cheaper.
Where do you guys get your information?

Over here in the US it's always less expensive to buy in the store than on steam. It's even more funny to see people whining about buying Valve games cheaper in the store as if that's some kind of justification for being angry against them...go buy it in the store and put the key into your steam client!

Where did you even learn that Valve considered Steam to be a cheaper platform than retail? Since its beginning it's been touted as a convenience for the users and DRM for Valve; not a cost-based alternative to retail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAC13DAV View Post
I don't know if anyone pointed that, but I think they should say at the receipt how much VAT is in the price (in percentage and in value) but as far as I know they don't. They only state that price include VAT.

Is there any law that could force them to give that information?
ROFL!
Two weeks ago you were whining about how you couldn't figure out the price of the games because Valve displayed the VAT charges before you had to click on "Confirm" for the purchase!

Do you do anything other than whine? Why not go play the games you own...or do you even own any? Maybe after Valve starts giving their games away you'll be happier; actually I bet you'd complain about any bugs even if they gave you the games for free!



@marekfreak,
yeah, totally agree. I feel bad for the people who got screwed and hope Valve fixes it quickly...if they even can. If pricing arrangements were more transparent, you can bet we'd know who to be angry with (*cough* EA and Ubi, for example, as two well known publishers to drop regular turds on their customers), but since Valve listens to their customers they get the bulk of the complaint. Ironic. They don't have an obligation to drop prices to below retail, which is what I was primarily debating against...and now I've even got a US customer telling me I'm just arguing to argue when "she" knows full well that we can't buy games cheaper on steam than we can in retail stores ;)

Faur
12-27-2008, 10:45 PM
we can't buy games cheaper on steam than we can in retail stores ;)

But then what's the reason for even using steam? Do you seriously pay $80-90 for new releases?

some2one
12-28-2008, 01:02 AM
So is Steam charging Europeans prices higher then the RRP? If that is true then it is obviously something that needs to be fixed but if the price changes in Europe just made steam prices equal to the RRP then I see no problem.

The reason for using steam is meant to be that you prefer it over buying your games from retail and like the services that steam provides, not that it is cheaper.

Stilgar
12-28-2008, 02:44 AM
So is Steam charging Europeans prices higher then the RRP?

Yes. Like 30% higher.

snaileri
12-28-2008, 02:47 AM
WTF? Still no comment from Valve about this issue?
I'm not buying anything until the prices are the same for every user,
even if they put some 90% off deal, because someone still gets the game cheaper than me.

Woutsie
12-28-2008, 02:54 AM
WTF? Still no comment from Valve about this issue?
I'm not buying anything until the prices are the same for every user,
even if they put some 90% off deal, because someone still gets the game cheaper than me.

They DID comment on it. They're working on it.

pkt-zer0
12-28-2008, 03:30 AM
They DID comment on it. They're working on it.
You mean the "Yes, we agree that some of the prices for third party products are higher then what you can find locally but we are working to fix that." comment? The prices on VALVe's own games are off, with the exception of Portal, and those are definitely not "third party products".

FredWP
12-28-2008, 03:35 AM
They DID comment on it. They're working on it.

If they were they would put it back on beta realizing how big the errors currently are (21 euros price difference in some games).

Unfeared
12-28-2008, 03:35 AM
Pff who cares, if they don't fix it soon, the European commission will.

Woutsie
12-28-2008, 03:39 AM
You mean the "Yes, we agree that some of the prices for third party products are higher then what you can find locally but we are working to fix that." comment? The prices on VALVe's own games are off, with the exception of Portal, and those are definitely not "third party products".

Ok. Then I was wrong. :p

smooth
12-28-2008, 03:40 AM
Pff who cares, if they don't fix it soon, the European commission will.
What can the European Commission do to Valve?

It seems like they wouldn't be able to do anything to a US based company...maybe make it so they can't sell to you guys but I'm not sure how that would help anyone.

Haas82
12-28-2008, 03:44 AM
What can the European Commission do to Valve?

It seems like they wouldn't be able to do anything to a US based company...maybe make it so they can't sell to you guys but I'm not sure how that would help anyone.
They can, you can only ask will they? The price diffrent in the uk with the rest is in my view illegal, but i am no advocate

Unkn0wn
12-28-2008, 03:46 AM
What can the European Commission do to Valve?

They can force valve to adjust their prices in order to stop price discrimination between EU countries. (which is illegal in the EU) They CAN fine valve and there's no way that valve would be able to ignore this. (See microsoft/apple in the past)

The EU has a worldwide economic influence.

smooth
12-28-2008, 04:22 AM
Do you guys just believe everything people post in this thread?
Do some research, sheesh...it only took me a few minutes to find this:


The Commission was satisfied that the price differential was not the result of collusion between Apple and the record companies. The probe "allowed the Commission to clarify that there is no agreement between Apple and the major record companies regarding how the iTunes store is organized in Europe. Rather, the structure of the iTunes store is chosen by Apple to take into account the country-specific aspects of copyright laws," the Commission said.

It added that it is aware that some record companies, publishers and collecting societies still apply licensing practices which can make it difficult for iTunes to operate stores in a uniform manner in all European countries.

No antitrust action would be taken against the record companies, said Jonathan Todd, the Commission's competition spokesman. "Our understanding is that the record companies that don't apply pan-European pricing [for their music] do so respecting copyright policy, and that is not an antitrust violation," he said.

--http://www.macworld.com/article/131479/2008/01/eu.html

Balerion
12-28-2008, 05:00 AM
But your arguments are also about whether you should pay the same or less than us US customers. Well, whatever, when I buy parts for my BMW I certainly do have to pay out my nose to get what I need and I don't go whining to customer service about the unfairness of it all because they would: a. tell me to go drive something else and b. not care much
You obviously don't see the difference between shipping s PHYSICAL product and DIGITAL product.
It's obvious why BMW parts are going to be more expensive in US than in Germany. But there's NO REASON whatsoever for a DIGITAL product to be more expensive in another country. Period.

I don't care if it's more expensive than retail, what I care about is WHY should one country pay more than another for digitally distributed product.


EDIT: They even deny European customers to buy in the UK store and that's obviously illegal by EU laws.


What can the European Commission do to Valve?

It seems like they wouldn't be able to do anything to a US based company...
Really? How about you go ask Microsoft about that? ;)
They can make Valve to pay a fine for illegal business practices (denying EU customers to use UK store and UK prices). Valve would either had to pay the fine and fix the issue OR stop selling in EU. Because even if you are a US based company, if you want to sell in another country you have follow the laws in that country. And I seriously doubt they'd willingly lose such a big market.

Stilgar
12-28-2008, 05:17 AM
The European Commission doesn't have to do anything. I will fix this myself by not giving valve my money. Including through retail. There... it's fixed.

mouton
12-28-2008, 05:29 AM
I like how every now and then an American or British user comes to this thread and goes on to explain the dumb Europeans how they should be grateful they have this wonderful thing Steam is and we should shut up and pay. It is so damn easy to love Valve when it was not YOU who got shafted. I have yet to see an European user coming here and saying all is good, lol

Smooth, you fail. The main point is we got a large and sudden price increase under the guise of mundane currency change and with no communication with users whatsoever. Then we get tons of discounts that still often fail to reduce the price below the old one. I don't give a damn about how it works in US and i don't care about EU Commission doing anything. I care that Valve treated it's loyal customers like dumb sheep that they can feed with anything.

K0NGEN
12-28-2008, 05:50 AM
I like how every now and then an American or British user comes to this thread and goes on to explain the dumb Europeans how they should be grateful they have this wonderful thing Steam is and we should shut up and pay. It is so damn easy to love Valve when it was not YOU who got shafted. I have yet to see an European user coming here and saying all is good, lol

Smooth, you fail. The main point is we got a large and sudden price increase under the guise of mundane currency change and with no communication with users whatsoever. Then we get tons of discounts that still often fail to reduce the price below the old one. I don't give a damn about how it works in US and i don't care about EU Commission doing anything. I care that Valve treated it's loyal customers like dumb sheep that they can feed with anything.
Exactly. I wish they would just either revert it so I can partake in the holiday sales. I don't even use € as a currency where I live and it's forced on me. As of right now, I'm not buying anything. I hope nobody else is too.

Zeppelid
12-28-2008, 06:12 AM
Exactly. I wish they would just either revert it so I can partake in the holiday sales. I don't even use € as a currency where I live and it's forced on me. As of right now, I'm not buying anything. I hope nobody else is too.

Whats your damn problem? The Holidaysale is amazing. Steam is visibly cheaper than retail for Europeans.

I am sure, if European prices are cheaper than US and you still had USD you are moaning why you are still having USD while Euro-countries are closer to you.

So be realistic and not a damn *****!

AND ENJOY HOLIDAY SALE!

Mr. X
12-28-2008, 06:20 AM
...

Simple: I buy my games elsewhere now, preferably other online stores because it's cheaper there then trough Steam.

A Euro is not a Dollar so the 'Damn problem' as you put it is in the unreasonable price rise of all steam games. And the holiday sale doesn't make that up. Plus the fact that the holiday sale is temporary. I enjoyed buying stuff from steam but a raise in price of more then 25% makes me go to other online stores.

tonka
12-28-2008, 06:26 AM
Whats your damn problem? The Holidaysale is amazing. Steam is visibly cheaper than retail for Europeans.

I am sure, if European prices are cheaper than US and you still had USD you are moaning why you are still having USD while Euro-countries are closer to you.

So be realistic and not a damn *****!

AND ENJOY HOLIDAY SALE!

Agreed with you...:D

And Happy New Year

jalf
12-28-2008, 06:26 AM
Also, perhaps you'd like to explain how you think the EU fining MS for abusing anti-trust laws has any bearing on this situation at all...nah, you'd rather snivel and snot all over your keyboard.

Unlike your post, he actually had a valid point. Of course, that's not apparent unless you actually bother to read the post he was replying to. Microsoft is an example of the European Commision being perfectly capable of "doing something to a US-based company". And as it happens, the post he responded to was "It seems like they wouldn't be able to do anything to a US based company...".

My, what a coincidence. Someone asks whether the EUC can do anything to a US-based company, and someone else responds with an example of the EUC doing something to a US-based company.

But by all means, go on trolling. It's so much easier.

Have fun with that ;)

Whats your damn problem? The Holidaysale is amazing. Steam is visibly cheaper than retail for Europeans.
LOL...

Have you looked at Steam's prices?
Yes, there are a couple of good deals. But for "Steam to be visibly cheaper than retail", it would have to be the case for *most* games. It isn't. Most of Valve's *own* games are still cheaper in retail, *even with the holiday sale prices*. Mass Effect is still what, 70% more on Steam than it is in retail.

I am sure, if European prices are cheaper than US and you still had USD you are moaning why you are still having USD while Euro-countries are closer to you.
Are you? Well, we had US dollars until a few weeks ago. So how about you back up your wild claims with some facts? Show us some moaning about us having USD when Euro-countries are closer to us. There ought to be hundreds of them on the forum, given that Steam used USD for years.

But once again, it's easier to troll, isn't it? Who needs facts when you can make up your own little stories about issues that don't affect you.

ROFL, sounds more like you fail...I was able to buy dozens of games at awesome prices and have been enjoying my weekend whereas you will still be crying come monday...
Really? Care to list them? I'd like to see "dozens" of games on Steam that, at European prices, even with the holiday sale, have "awesome prices".

I'd be impressed if you can list more than 5.

Now, may I suggest that if you people have nothing to add to this discussion, if you aren't affected by the Euro prices, and don't see them as a problem in any case, you stay out of this thread rather than repeatedly trying to derail it with your trolling?

We have a reason for posting in this thread. We do it because we feel ripped off. Why do you spend so much time on it? Unless you actually prefer the higher prices, why do you get so upset about us protesting against them? Why do you spend so much time and effort telling us to suck it up and accept a 40% price jump? Not even Valve is doing that, and they have a clear interest in higher prices.

Zeppelid
12-28-2008, 06:32 AM
Simple: I buy my games elsewhere now, preferably other online stores because it's cheaper there then trough Steam.

A Euro is not a Dollar so the 'Damn problem' as you put it is in the unreasonable price rise of all steam games. And the holiday sale doesn't make that up. Plus the fact that the holiday sale is temporary. I enjoyed buying stuff from steam but a raise in price of more then 25% makes me go to other online stores.
Surely holiday Sale is temporary, but it is just stupid to boycott it like some people here.
Show me a site for europeans where you get clear Sky new for less than 15€? Even without shipping you just won't find a deal like this.

smooth
12-28-2008, 06:34 AM
Unlike your post, he actually had a valid point. Of course, that's not apparent unless you actually bother to read the post he was replying to. Microsoft is an example of the European Commision being perfectly capable of "doing something to a US-based company". And as it happens, the post he responded to was "It seems like they wouldn't be able to do anything to a US based company..."
Oh yes, that's rich indeed.
How about you try reading and quoting the entire sentence before accusing me of trolling.

Here's the rest of my sentence:

maybe make it so they can't sell to you guys but I'm not sure how that would help anyone.


MS lost an antitrust suit regarding the products their company sells in the EU. Apple did not after the EU determined that the differences in pricing were based on legitimate reasons.

Perhaps that sounds like some valid points to you, but not to any reasonable readers who can comprehend the English language.
We have a reason for posting in this thread. We do it because we feel ripped off. Why do you spend so much time on it? Unless you actually prefer the higher prices, why do you get so upset about us protesting against them? Why do you spend so much time and effort telling us to suck it up and accept a 40% price jump? Not even Valve is doing that, and they have a clear interest in higher prices.
I have plenty of reason to post in this thread. Unlike you snot-nosed brats who think the world owes you everything you whine for, I care about the company I purchase my games from.

Eventually your short-sighted complaining will result in Valve either refusing to sell to certain regions, or like you're bragging about doing getting the EU to stop them from selling to certain regions, or they'll start charging for each download.

Unlike you, I actually bought product. I don't feel ripped off. You didn't buy anything, so how could you have been ripped off? Go whine somewhere else...preferably on the EA or Ubi forums.

jalf
12-28-2008, 06:41 AM
BTW, what do you mean they gave "no attention to conversion rates"? That demonstrates a total lack of comprehension of how currency rates operate. They aren't one-time things, lol. Valve very well could have used the current exchange rates when they made the prices but they would have been different 1 minute later
Ah yes, of course. The Euro<-> USD conversion rate just jumped 40% in 1 minute. Got a source to back that one up?
maybe make it so they can't sell to you guys but I'm not sure how that would help anyone.
LOL, because that is exactly what they did to MS, is it?
I'm sorry, but perhaps you should do some reading on the subject before teaching us Europeans about what the EU can or can not do?
Fining MS quite a few billions ring any bells? That's not what I'd call "make it so they can't sell to you guys". It's a bit more hard-hitting than that. MS is great example of the EUC doing a lot more than "making it so they can't sell to you guys".

(And requiring MS to change their product in order to sell it in Europe certainly *does* help EU customers. Because neither MS nor Valve are interested in losing a market of 700 million people, so they're more than willing to make the necessary changes.)

Deltasniper
12-28-2008, 06:44 AM
I have a question.

Does a 20oz bottle of coke cost .86 Euro?

smooth
12-28-2008, 06:45 AM
LOL, because that is exactly what they did to MS, is it?
I'm sorry, but perhaps you should do some reading on the subject before teaching us Europeans about what the EU can or can not do?
Fining MS quite a few billions ring any bells? That's not what I'd call "make it so they can't sell to you guys". It's a bit more hard-hitting than that. MS is great example of the EUC doing a lot more than "making it so they can't sell to you guys". If you weren't so busy trolling, I'm sure you'd be able to understand that. I know Microsoft has understood it.

(And requiring MS to change their product in order to sell it in Europe certainly *does* help EU customers. Because neither MS nor Valve are interested in losing a market of 700 million people, so they're more than willing to make the necessary changes.)

So yes, I'm accusing you of trolling, and of being goddam ignorant of the things you're trying to teach us all about.

Not only did I read up on both cases, I even posted the conclusion to the cases right in this thread in the post you conveniently chopped up to try and make a point.

The analogous case is the Apple case, not the Microsoft one.
The EU dropped the investigation against Apple and fined Microsoft for antitrust violation.

I didn't try to "teach" you Europeans anything...I asked what the EU could possibly do to a company like Valve, who is merely distributing products of other companies who set the prices.

That's what happened in the Apple case, not the Microsoft anti-trust investigation. Rather than explain, you resorted to insulting me. That's trolling.

Explain how the Microsoft case applies here instead of insulting me and perhaps you'll regain some credibility.

EDIT: PS, I reported you for personal insults and using foul language on the public forums.

MaxMcG
12-28-2008, 06:46 AM
Funny how as soon as they change the pricing, Ubisoft games become available. Guess we know now why they weren't available previously...

jalf
12-28-2008, 06:54 AM
I have a question.

Does a 20oz bottle of coke cost .86 Euro?
No, in some European countries it is far cheaper. In others far more expensive.
In any case, irrelevant. Both because the economics are different (logistics for shipping coke bottles around are very different from sending bits over the internet), and because the problem isn't whether or not European Steam prices are identical to US Steam prices, but the fact that Valve tries to hide a 40% price jump under a currency change.



Explain how the Microsoft case applies here instead of insulting me and perhaps you'll regain some credibility.
Who's insulting? I didn't call you any four-letter words liek you just did.

But allow me to jog your memory, since you seem to have conveniently forgotten what you asked:

It seems like they wouldn't be able to do anything to a US based company...maybe make it so they can't sell to you guys but I'm not sure how that would help anyone.
Let us analyze this. You make several points:
- Would the EU be able to do anything to a US based company?
- Would they be able to do anything other than forbid the company from selling their product in the EU?
- Would it benefit anyone if they forbade the company from selling in the EU?

You didn't say anything about what wrongs the US-based company in question had committed, only whether or not the EU can do anything about US-based companies.

And you've been given answers to all of these.
As the Microsoft case showed, the EU is very capable of doing more than simply forbidding the sale of a product. They can fine a company, for example. Whether or not they can do this to Valve for screwing up their prices is irrelevant, because that wasn't what you asked. You asked whether the EU had the mandate to do anything to a US-based company.

And moreover, even just forbidding the sale of the product would be a very efficient tactic that would benefit European customers. Because no sane US-based company would simply give up the European market. It is rather big, and both Microsoft, Apple and Valve have a lot of revenue at stake there.

mouton
12-28-2008, 06:56 AM
ROFL, sounds more like you fail...I was able to buy dozens of games at awesome prices and have been enjoying my weekend whereas you will still be crying come monday...
So all this posting here was just to say "neener-neener, we got lower prices!"? Congratulations, I am happy I contributed to you reliving your childhood.

And yet you miss the point again. I can get my games elsewhere, no problem. It is Valve who loses sales here. And that is sad because I like Valve and wish I could buy from them. Why do they drive their customers away like that is beyond me.

jalf
12-28-2008, 07:00 AM
And yet you miss the point again. I can get my games elsewhere, no problem. It is Valve who loses sales here. And that is sad because I like Valve and wish I could buy from them. Why do they drive their customers away like that is beyond me.

That's the thing I don't understand about the "suck it up and buy games from Steam regardless of prices"-brigade.

Why do they bother defending this? Europeans can and will buy their games elsewhere. Valve will have to react to this or lose a truckload of money. That's all there is to it. The fact that this thread exists is a service to Valve as much as anything. It tells Valve *why* their European sales just nosedived. And it is a service to European Steam customers who may not be aware of the vastly cheaper alternatives available.
Customer complaints are an opportunity for the company to fix problems that may otherwise scare more customers away.

Who gains anything by trying to defend the new prices? Not Valve, because no matter what, we will buy where the games are affordable, and at the moment, that is not Valve.
Not the Euro customers either, and it doesn't seem to have any relevance to US customers either.

So why anyone spends all day trying to convince an entire continent to pay 40% more than necessary for their games, is beyond me.

mouton
12-28-2008, 07:02 AM
So be realistic and not a damn *****!
Realistic, you say? OK!

"Realistically looking, Steam prices are way higher than retai, therefore I will buy games elsewhere"

How is that? Oh, and being realistic also includes realizing that the holiday discounts end in a few days.

smooth
12-28-2008, 07:02 AM
Who's insulting? I didn't call you any four-letter words liek you just did.

But allow me to jog your memory, since you seem to have conveniently forgotten what you asked:


Let us analyze this. You make several points:
- Would the EU be able to do anything to a US based company?
- Would they be able to do anything other than forbid the company from selling their product in the EU?
- Would it benefit anyone if they forbade the company from selling in the EU?

You didn't say anything about what wrongs the US-based company in question had committed, only whether or not the EU can do anything about US-based companies.

And you've been given answers to all of these.
As the Microsoft case showed, the EU is very capable of doing more than simply forbidding the sale of a product. They can fine a company, for example. Whether or not they can do this to Valve for screwing up their prices is irrelevant, because that wasn't what you asked. You asked whether the EU had the mandate to do anything to a US-based company.

Yes, pardon me for relying on common sense to prevail.
When we're talking about Valve and it's business practices, I didn't see the need to clarify that anti-trust cases against companies were irrelevant.

Sane readers understood that the question was:
"In a situation such as this, what could the EU effectively do?"
The Apple case was the same situation as this.
In the Apple case, they dropped the investigation.
I can't use clairvoyance to anticipate any other irrelevant cases you might conjure up, so try and have a bit of patience while you come up with nonsensical responses to my points.

cryptodan
12-28-2008, 07:06 AM
ms anti-trust...

That case revolved around the integration of Internet Explorer, and forcing people to use Windows Media Player. MS Struck WMP out of the installer, but kept IE integrated. This violated the order, and was fined. It had nothing to do with prices as you say it does.

jalf
12-28-2008, 07:08 AM
So "sane people" are ones who can read your mind and know what you *meant*, even if it wasn't actually mentioned in your posts?

I suspect there's a world shortage of sanity, in that case.

smooth
12-28-2008, 07:12 AM
Cryptodan pointed it out right above you.

Everyone who knows about the cases knows the MS case was about anti-trust violation; it had nothing to do with pricing.

I suppose you could dig up a scenario where some company stole something and was fined, too. But that would be just as irrelevant, as well.

I don't know what else you want to say. It's pretty obvious you're the one who is trolling and talking about cases you don't even know the basic facts.

K0NGEN
12-28-2008, 07:15 AM
So "sane people" are ones who can read your mind and know what you *meant*, even if it wasn't actually mentioned in your posts?

I suspect there's a world shortage of sanity, in that case.
Sanity doesn't exist to trolls. :D

Deltasniper
12-28-2008, 07:21 AM
No, in some European countries it is far cheaper. In others far more expensive.
In any case, irrelevant. Both because the economics are different (logistics for shipping coke bottles around are very different from sending bits over the internet), and because the problem isn't whether or not European Steam prices are identical to US Steam prices, but the fact that Valve tries to hide a 40% price jump under a currency change.



Keep telling yourself that.

jalf
12-28-2008, 07:22 AM
Cryptodan pointed it out right above you.
Everyone who knows about the cases knows the MS case was about anti-trust violation; it had nothing to do with pricing.

Yep, and as I pointed out, you did not specifically ask for an example of the EU successfully lowering unfair prices. You simply said you didn't think the EU could do anything about a US-based company. It can, and has done that, as I and others illustrated.

If you meant something different, perhaps you should have been more specific. Perhaps you should have actually mentioned it in your post, for example.

jalf
12-28-2008, 07:23 AM
Keep telling yourself that.

Keep telling myself what, exactly? That the price on Coke varies widely in Europe?
Or that European users are upset about Steam?

Yes, I think I'll keep telling myself those two things, because they just so happen to be true.

CorneliusCH
12-28-2008, 07:27 AM
Thank God we are only arguing about games and not about something you can happily live without... *irony*

mouton
12-28-2008, 07:27 AM
I don't know what else you want to say. It's pretty obvious you're the one who is trolling and talking about cases you don't even know the basic facts.
Even if he was wrong with the EU Commission thing, it doesn't really touch the core issue of this thread which is "Valve treating their customers like ♥♥♥♥". This is where we all come from.

smooth
12-28-2008, 07:32 AM
Yep, and as I pointed out, you did not specifically ask for an example of the EU successfully lowering unfair prices. You simply said you didn't think the EU could do anything about a US-based company. It can, and has done that, as I and others illustrated.

If you meant something different, perhaps you should have been more specific. Perhaps you should have actually mentioned it in your post, for example.
OMG, I'm sorry this is so difficult for you to understand.

I suggest you translate the English word, context into whatever native language you speak because you are making yourself look like an idiot.

When we are in a thread discussion Valve and it's video game pricing schemes, and someone asks "what can the EU Commission do to a US company" that does not mean "what can the EU do to a company that violates anti-trust law" by any stretch of the imagination.

The reason you are harping on it is because you didn't actually know the facts of the MS case. If you did, you wouldn't have used it as an example of something the commission could do to Valve.

I posted the Apple case long before you responded. The apple case was exactly like the Valve situation; and in that case, the EU did nothing.

If there's any other situations I failed to mention in my question, I can't be held responsible for them because they aren't relevant to the discussion. That's called discussing something in context. If we didn't have that concept in the English language, every time someone asked a question he would have to anticipate any and all examples the other person might come up with. That's not how discussions work and that's not how the law operates. The case has to be relevant to the material facts. This is pretty basic stuff and the fact that you keep going on and on even after it's been pointed out to you by several people leads me to conclude that you're just trying to troll the thread into the gutter because you've got nothing important or relevant to add and you're embarrassed by being proven that you didn't actually understand what you were spouting off about.

Even if he was wrong with the EU Commission thing, it doesn't really touch the core issue of this thread which is "Valve treating their customers like ♥♥♥♥". This is where we all come from.
I've written several times in this thread that the customers who have been adversely affected by the problem have my sympathies. However, Valve appears to be working on what they are able to control. If the 3rd party developers are keeping them from adjusting the prices of their games, there is nothing Valve can do about it. Apparently, there isn't much the EU commission will do about it either based off what they concluded in the Apple case.

If you want to be heard effectively, you guys should be campaigning on the forums of the game developers who have set incorrect prices rather than blaming Valve for everything. Boycotting, threatening lawsuits, trying to get Valve fined or shut down from selling in the EU is childish and doesn't even result in what you want.

Deltasniper
12-28-2008, 07:32 AM
Off to purchase some amazingly cheap games off steam!

mouton
12-28-2008, 07:37 AM
Off to purchase some amazingly cheap games off steam!
I recommend Mass Effect. 40 euro is a monumental bargain. Or Left4Dead - with this huge discount at 33 euro it is almost as cheap as retail now! Or how about COD: WaW for 45 euro? OR Perhaps GTA4 for the same? Discounts! Discounts!

jalf
12-28-2008, 07:40 AM
I suggest you translate the English word, context into whatever native language you speak because you are making yourself look like an idiot.

Ok, I found the word. What do I do next?


When we are in a thread discussion Valve and it's video game pricing schemes, and someone asks "what can the EU Commission do to a US company" that does not mean "what can the EU do to a company that violates anti-trust law" by any stretch of the imagination.
No, when you go out of your way to say "A US-based company", I assume you mean "a US-based company" in general.

If you meant "what can the EU do to Valve in the current situation", you could have simply asked "What can the EU do?", and it'd have been clear from context that you were talking about Valve, Steam and the current pricing fiasco. You went out of your way to specifically say "A US-based company", rather than Valve.

And oddly enough, several people before me seemed to understand your post in the same way as I did. They answered your post like I did, and got flamed by you for it.

The reason you are harping on it is because you didn't actually know the facts of the MS case. If you did, you wouldn't have used it as an example of something the commission could do to Valve.
Yes, I've never even heard of Microsoft. And I love it when people tell me what I do what I do, because clearly you know what I'm thinking far better than I do.


The case has to be relevant to the material facts.
And the question "Can the EU do *anything* to US-based companies in the first place?" isn't relevant to a discussion of whether or not the EU can do anything to Valve in *this* case?

I beg to differ. I think it's both relevant, and very fundamental to the discussion.
If the EU can't touch US-based companies under any circumstances, the discussion of whether they can do anything about the pricing on Steam is obviously moot.

I've written several times in this thread that the customers who have been adversely affected by the problem have my sympathies. However, Valve appears to be working on what they are able to control. If the 3rd party developers are keeping them from adjusting the prices of their games, there is nothing Valve can do about it.
Once again, missing the point, and even then, you're still wrong.
First, we don't need anyone's sympathy. We can simply buy our games elsewhere.

Second, Valve certainly does have a lot of control over prices. As the S2 and Aquaria developers pointed out, Valve suggested these prices.
And I find it hard to believe that Valve can't adjust prices themselves. As long as the 3rd party publishers get their cut, why would they care if Valve lowered the price? That'd just mean less profit to Valve, that's not their problem.
And even Valve's own games are incompetetively priced. Who, if not Valve, are to blame for this? I'd love to see how you can rub that one off on 3rd parties.

smooth
12-28-2008, 07:46 AM
Your arguments are becoming increasingly pathetic.

The person who seemed to read my question the same way as you was a four post wonder who registered today...probably your alias.

Everyone else is saying you're wrong...and they're coming from the EU.
Mouton had some pretty harsh things to say about my posts, and if you scroll up a few posts even he said you were wrong.

What is your point even? Are you trying to argue that the EU can, in fact, do something to a US company?

Ok, fine. Understood. We get it.
Quit beating a dead horse and answer the question I have since made abundantly clear I meant to ask:
What can the EU do to Valve in this situation?

mouton
12-28-2008, 07:49 AM
However, Valve appears to be working on what they are able to control. If the 3rd party developers are keeping them from adjusting the prices of their games, there is nothing Valve can do about it.
You see, I want to believe this. I really do. But why, then, couldn't Valve SAY so? A single post by Valve employee, who are many of whom are quite active on those forums, could limit this thread to 14 pages instead of four billion. Total lack of communication from Valve is one of the main reasons why people are so angry about this situation and it only makes the worse assumptions ("they did it for lulz/cash") more likely.
If you want to be heard effectively, you guys should be campaigning on the forums of the game developers who have set incorrect prices rather than blaming Valve for everything.
It was Valve who set those prices in the first place. Proof? Prices of Valve products are just as ridiculous.

Look, I know you like Valve and you are annoyed when some whiners ♥♥♥♥♥ about it incessantly. I like Valve too and would have been considered a loyal fanboy just a week ago. It pains me when I see them killing their credibility just like that and I keep posting here exactly because I like them.

Sasquatchsliper
12-28-2008, 07:49 AM
2 french cent :D

=> The EU Comm' is not a knight who say "NI" or "YAY!" :D
It's a geopolitical problem, the member and the president of the Commission change, the President and gov of europeans countries change, etc.

/!\ And remember there's no "stare decisis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stare_decisis)" in Europe, only UK is under the common law (see Civil law (legal system) in Wikipedia).

About 1$=1€, Steam is not that big, so IMO the EU Comm' won't do anything (or wait at least 6 months).

smooth
12-28-2008, 07:57 AM
You see, I want to believe this. I really do. But why, then, couldn't Valve SAY so? A single post by Valve employee, who are many of whom are quite active on those forums, could limit this thread to 14 pages instead of four billion. Total lack of communication from Valve is one of the main reasons why people are so angry about this situation and it only makes the worse assumptions ("they did it for lulz/cash") more likely.

It was Valve who set those prices in the first place. Proof? Prices of Valve products are just as ridiculous.

Look, I know you like Valve and you are annoyed when some whiners ♥♥♥♥♥ about it incessantly. I like Valve too and would have been considered a loyal fanboy just a week ago. It pains me when I see them killing their credibility just like that and I keep posting here exactly because I like them.

mouton, come on now...do you want them responding to every single post or working on the situation? It's the weekend, and a holiday weekend on top of it all.

No amount of posting from Valve is going to stop the incessant whining. It's not just limited to this thread. It's all over the place. It's not even just this week. Pretty much every day of every month there are multiple threads complaining about how the games are priced. If it's not the fact that they differ from one country to another, it's because they are different from retail. There's simply no pleasing some people.

People are complaining in nearly every thread on the board. Do you really expect Valve employees to monitor every single thread and respond to people posting about how they won't buy TF2 in the thread about whether players should use game scripts? Should they respond to people posting in the Portal mods thread that they can't buy portal for $5? When someone asks if Stalker can be updated to the retail version, and then someone else just has to post that he wasn't able to get in on the $5 dollar deal...at some point it becomes obvious that there's just no talking to such people.

It's gotten so bad that Canadians are starting to chime in and point out that they've always had to pay higher prices for games but they aren't complaining, and they are closer to Valve than I am by proximity.

jalf
12-28-2008, 07:58 AM
Ok, fine. Understood. We get it.
Thank you. That only took what, five attempts?


What can the EU do to Valve in this situation?
No clue. I don't know that, and you don't either. That'd take more than a few months for experts in EU law to figure out.

But I can suggest a few reasons why it's not exactly the same as Apple's case. There are strong similarities, sure, but it's not an identical case.
For one, the prices were flat until a few weeks ago. Apple got off the hook because they were simply following the record labels. Steam has shown that it's been able to set a flat, and competetive, price for Europe ever since they launched. Did all the publishers gang up overnight to force a 40% price jump? (And if they did, that'd certainly warrant another investigation. Price fixing cartels aren't legal either)
Or why did Steam suddenly lose control of their pricing overnight?

Second, there's evidence that Valve, not third-party publishers, came up with the new prices.

But if I had to guess, I'd agree with you, I don't think the EU can or will do anything about this. And it doesn't matter. I can live with Steam being 40% overpriced. I'll just buy my games elsewhere. It's just a shame because Valve is going to lose out on a lot of revenue, and the end-users are going to lose out on a convenient service.

And EA is going to lose out on revenue, because the only store selling their games without crippling DRM is 40% overpriced. I've got several EA games I'm looking to buy as soon as they becmoe affordable without the excessive DRM from the retail versions.

Seems like everyone loses.

mouton, come on now...do you want them responding to every single post or working on the situation? It's the weekend, and a holiday weekend on top of it all.
And this issue did not pop up overnight. Once again you seem to be deliberately misunderstanding anyone who doesn't blindly worship the Steam-god.
It was not a holiday *or* weekend when this issue showed up. Valve didn't respond then. Valve hasn't responded now. And no, no one wants them to respond to every single post. They could make *one* response saying they're aware of the problem, and here's how they're going to solve it.

They haven't done that, and they've had what, two weeks now?


No amount of posting from Valve is going to stop the incessant whining
I think you're wrong. A single post from Valve would stop the majority of the complaints. And frankly, the only whining I see in this thread are from US users like you who are somehow upset that we dare point out the stupidity of the new prices.

Vir
12-28-2008, 07:58 AM
What can the EU do to Valve in this situation?

They can easily sue for billions of euros... Like poor M$ :eek:

smooth
12-28-2008, 08:02 AM
But if I had to guess, I'd agree with you, I don't think the EU can or will do anything about this.

They can easily sue for billions of euros... Like poor M$ :eek:

You guys are too funny...

Unshaved
12-28-2008, 08:04 AM
mouton, come on now...do you want them responding to every single post or working on the situation? It's the weekend, and a holiday weekend on top of it all.

No amount of posting from Valve is going to stop the incessant whining. It's not just limited to this thread. It's all over the place. It's not even just this week. Pretty much every day of every month there are multiple threads complaining about how the games are priced. If it's not the fact that they differ from one country to another, it's because they are different from retail. There's simply no pleasing some people.

People are complaining in nearly every thread on the board. Do you really expect Valve employees to monitor every single thread and respond to people posting about how they won't buy TF2 in the thread about whether players should use game scripts? Should they respond to people posting in the Portal mods thread that they can't buy portal for $5? When someone asks if Stalker can be updated to the retail version, and then someone else just has to post that he wasn't able to get in on the $5 dollar deal...at some point it becomes obvious that there's just no talking to such people.

It's gotten so bad that Canadians are starting to chime in and point out that they've always had to pay higher prices for games but they aren't complaining, and they are closer to Valve than I am by proximity.

It's true that it would be timeconsuming and mostly pointless to reply to those small threads(lets say under ~50 posts) but they have to be almost blind to not see such a huge thread like this. It has almost 2.500 posts. How is that not worthy of getting ONE reply even if it's a small one?

jalf
12-28-2008, 08:04 AM
Why? Because we disagree? Yes, that's hilarious. It's because we're different people. And there's a big difference between suing for billions of euros (which they could easily do), and actually winning the suit. So he's right too.

smooth
12-28-2008, 08:05 AM
I saw at least one reply from a Valve staff in this thread.

And no, you're funny because you wanted to disagree so badly only to conclude that you actually agreed with what I was saying.

And he's funny for being completely wrong.

CorneliusCH
12-28-2008, 08:05 AM
Maybe those who decide about such things are away, like on vacation because of some holiday ?

It's true that it would be timeconsuming and mostly pointless to reply to those small threads(lets say under ~50 posts) but they have to be almost blind to not see such a huge thread like this. It has almost 2.500 posts. How is that not worthy of getting ONE reply even if it's a small one?

Unshaved
12-28-2008, 08:10 AM
Maybe those who decide about such things are away, like on vacation because of some holiday ?

Since 18-12-2008? that's when the beta started if I remember correctly. Immediately followed by lots of complaints. That would be very stupid to "be on holiday" in such a timeperiod. How are the holiday sales then made up? some janitor or something was their replacement? I'm guessing they probably need the same person(s) to make the descision what to reply as they would need to announce the holiday discount and/or decide the prices for them

smooth
12-28-2008, 08:15 AM
How are the holiday sales then made up?
From the very first post of this thread:


Vandal (CD Projekt): Just remember, Steam doesn't necessarily set the prices for games on the site -- they've asked publishers about the prices they'd like to sell games at. Publishers have to approve the pricing, or they have an option of changing it. With The Witcher: Enhanced Edition we asked them to lower the price in Europe (well, Eastern Europe, where the game is available on Steam) to be in-line with market expectations.

...

Valve sent us an email basically saying "here's what we're doing and here are the prices we're planning to use -- let us know if you need them adjusted" and I'd suspect that other publishers must have gotten that same email.. particularly considering the fact that we only have one game on Steam, so we're a minor player.

Quintus77
12-28-2008, 08:15 AM
No amount of posting from Valve is going to stop the incessant whining. It's not just limited to this thread. It's all over the place. It's not even just this week. Pretty much every day of every month there are multiple threads complaining about how the games are priced. If it's not the fact that they differ from one country to another, it's because they are different from retail. There's simply no pleasing some people.

People are complaining in nearly every thread on the board. Do you really expect Valve employees to monitor every single thread and respond to people posting about how they won't buy TF2 in the thread about whether players should use game scripts? Should they respond to people posting in the Portal mods thread that they can't buy portal for $5? When someone asks if Stalker can be updated to the retail version, and then someone else just has to post that he wasn't able to get in on the $5 dollar deal...at some point it becomes obvious that there's just no talking to such people.

It's gotten so bad that Canadians are starting to chime in and point out that they've always had to pay higher prices for games but they aren't complaining, and they are closer to Valve than I am by proximity.

It's not just a fact of paying a higher price though, you wouldn't trade 1 euro(don't have the symbol on my keyboard) for $1 when you should at least be getting $1.40. Also Valve block the rest of Europe from accessing and therefore buying from the correctly priced UK store. Which is highly illegal (we have free trade within the EU). So it's not just whining about higher prices but more of the illegality of the situation

smooth
12-28-2008, 08:18 AM
Valve block the rest of Europe from accessing and therefore buying from the correctly priced UK store. Which is highly illegal (we have free trade within the EU). So it's not just whining about higher prices but more of the illegality of the situation
I posted this earlier:

The Commission was satisfied that the price differential was not the result of collusion between Apple and the record companies. The probe "allowed the Commission to clarify that there is no agreement between Apple and the major record companies regarding how the iTunes store is organized in Europe. Rather, the structure of the iTunes store is chosen by Apple to take into account the country-specific aspects of copyright laws," the Commission said.

It added that it is aware that some record companies, publishers and collecting societies still apply licensing practices which can make it difficult for iTunes to operate stores in a uniform manner in all European countries.

No antitrust action would be taken against the record companies, said Jonathan Todd, the Commission's competition spokesman. "Our understanding is that the record companies that don't apply pan-European pricing [for their music] do so respecting copyright policy, and that is not an antitrust violation," he said.

--http://www.macworld.com/article/131479/2008/01/eu.html

CombatEngineers
12-28-2008, 08:19 AM
Apple and record companies?

smooth
12-28-2008, 08:24 AM
Apple and record companies?
That's the relevant decision on the subject of an online distributor selling 3rd party digital merchandise for different prices among the EU member states from the EU commission itself.

The opening post incorrectly asserted that Apple was forced by the EU to align its prices uniformly across all of EU. It did no such thing, in fact, the commission decided the opposite.

The only other case cited was the situation of MS being fined for anti-trust violation, which is not relevant to this issue.

If you've got some other cases regarding similar situations to this, then provide them.

Quintus77
12-28-2008, 08:28 AM
I posted this earlier:
Quote:
The Commission was satisfied that the price differential was not the result of collusion between Apple and the record companies. The probe "allowed the Commission to clarify that there is no agreement between Apple and the major record companies regarding how the iTunes store is organized in Europe. Rather, the structure of the iTunes store is chosen by Apple to take into account the country-specific aspects of copyright laws," the Commission said.

It added that it is aware that some record companies, publishers and collecting societies still apply licensing practices which can make it difficult for iTunes to operate stores in a uniform manner in all European countries.

No antitrust action would be taken against the record companies, said Jonathan Todd, the Commission's competition spokesman. "Our understanding is that the record companies that don't apply pan-European pricing [for their music] do so respecting copyright policy, and that is not an antitrust violation," he said.

--http://www.macworld.com/article/131479/2008/01/eu.

I saw that, but I wouldn't apply that ruling across the board to all digital distribution. And also the prices concerned there were in line with current exchange rates so in fact it was easier to allow it. This issue is different enough to warrant a new ruling.

Lance_Lake
12-28-2008, 08:28 AM
If the EU can't touch US-based companies under any circumstances, the discussion of whether they can do anything about the pricing on Steam is obviously moot.

QFT
10char

CombatEngineers
12-28-2008, 08:30 AM
I would think that the European Commission would deal on a case by case basis. I'm sure Valve have looked into what they were doing better than any of us but to Joe Public it looks like Valve is working with 6 year old exchange rates.

I'm sure Valve will give an official reply in the coming weeks, they've alway been relatively open (except about Episode 3!)

johnnie
12-28-2008, 08:36 AM
Valve still owes us a solid explanation

snaileri
12-28-2008, 08:39 AM
They've just lost a customer.

Europhoria
12-28-2008, 08:41 AM
If you are concerned about the legality of this situation, take it up with your local authorities/government and let them deal with it. Simply quoting it here won't help your cause much. Also, exercise your rights as a consumer in a free market (I assume most of Europe is a free market, I'm an engineer, not an economist) and buy what is cheaper, retail or on Steam. Falling digital distribution sales will only encourage Valve and the other publishers to bring their prices in line with consumer expectation. I assume this is what happened in Australia when our dollar fell from $0.98 US to $0.68 US, some slashed up to ~100% off their price (CoD4 from $88.50 to $49.99, Bioshock from $49.99 to $19.99).

jalf
12-28-2008, 08:59 AM
I saw at least one reply from a Valve staff in this thread.

Where? Are you talking about the one on SteamFriends saying "we know a few 3rd-party titles are priced too high, and we're looking into fixing this".

Because that's not really relevant when:
1 - Valve's own games are priced just as badly (so it's not just third-party)
2 - It's not "a few titles", but basically across the board, excepting a couple of titles whose publishers listened to feedback and lowered their prices.

So if that is the reply you're talking about, it's completely irrelevant. If they feel that reply is relevant to this pricing fiasco, it only shows that Valve still does not understand the problem with their pricing.

Or did they make another reply which I missed? One which actually addressed any of the criticism levelled at their pricing?

chopstix
12-28-2008, 09:04 AM
ROFL, sounds more like you fail...I was able to buy dozens of games at awesome prices and have been enjoying my weekend whereas you will still be crying come monday...

Off to purchase some amazingly cheap games off steam!

I am just curious, what is the point of these sort of posts in this thread? Simply to brag? Wow great, you live in a country Valve hasn't screwed over yet. What is the point of these posts other than to cause trouble in this thread? They are clearly troll posts, contributing nothing of value to this conversation.

How about instead of constantly making fail arguments, lets all just chill out and work towards a solution?

You asked what if the EU makes Valve shutdown. Although that would be unlikely, what would anyone from Europe care to start with? They aren't going to buy anything from it anyways, considering Valve feels they should be charged up to 40% more for a digital download than their American counterparts. Valve is the only one losing out here.

It would be in their best interest to work with European users and provide at a minimum, reasonable prices equivalent to retail. Why is that so hard to understand? Why do you guys feel the constant need to tell Europe to "suck it up"? I am pretty sure if this was reversed, you wouldn't be happy.

How about talking like adults and working towards a solution peacefully, instead of berating Europeans for wanting fair prices? Or is that to much to ask for (and I am guessing it is by the tone of most posts, including the above)?

mouton
12-28-2008, 09:11 AM
mouton, come on now...do you want them responding to every single post or working on the situation?
Just one official reply would change the situation significantly, if not fix it. Valve employees are active on those forums, so it is only fair to assume Valve simply doesn't want to comment on this topic. This indicates their motives were as bad as we might think.
No amount of posting from Valve is going to stop the incessant whining. It's not just limited to this thread. It's all over the place. It's not even just this week. Pretty much every day of every month there are multiple threads complaining about how the games are priced.
Man, did you see the sheer numbers near this thread? Have you see any flame thread like this on those forums? Also, while there are some people who keep discussing the matter actively (like you and me), there are hundreds of posts by first time posters who ignore the rest of the thread and only came here to voice their outrage. And new ones appear even now, a week after. Check out the steam group dedicated solely to this matter: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/1e1us
There is 11 thousand active Steam users who were pissed enough to actually go join some group. This is not "just typical whine thread", no sir. Valve did many questionable things but they really hit a mother lode of anger with this one.

2g4u|Fear
12-28-2008, 09:16 AM
Yeah nice , for example now GTA IV costs me 44.99 Euro in steam of course

In my Country it`s something about 180 zł . But in my Shops i can buy it for 130 zł :| Nice Valve , about 50 zł expensive

smooth
12-28-2008, 09:17 AM
It is reversed, chopstix.
Go read any of the other numerous posts all over the board in totally unrelated threads where Euro users chime in with the fact they are boycotting Valve.

Want to talk about the soldier update? No problem...oh wait, here comes someone to inform us that UK is paying 7 pounds and they've got to pay 10 Euro (a whopping three US dollar difference)

Want to talk about Crysis mods working on steam? No problem...oh wait, here comes someone to inform us that they are once again boycotting Valve because it's more than retail (apparently oblivious to the fact that it's steam's price is twice US retail prices, yet we aren't filling up the Crysis section about that for some reason)

Want to talk about Titan Quest not being patched to the latest version? No problem...oh wait, here comes yet another person complaining that they have no intention of ever buying another product from steam (no matter that the gold edition is half steam's price in retail stores *and* is patched to the latest version)


I find your post especially strange because earlier you claimed that you were a US customer but you sure don't sound like one here with your constant chiming in about reasonable prices compared to retail, whatever that is. I asked you earlier, and you apparently thought leaving for a few hours would mean you didn't have to answer the question, where do you see steam games offered for the same or less than retail prices in the United States? oh that's right, you said that wasn't really what the argument was about...consistent much?

Just one official reply would change the situation significantly, if not fix it. Valve employees are active on those forums, so it is only fair to assume Valve simply doesn't want to comment on this topic. This indicates their motives were as bad as we might think.

Man, did you see the sheer numbers near this thread? Have you see any flame thread like this on those forums? Also, while there are some people who keep discussing the matter actively (like you and me), there are hundreds of posts by first time posters who ignore the rest of the thread and only came here to voice their outrage. And new ones appear even now, a week after. Check out the steam group dedicated solely to this matter: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/1e1us
There is 11 thousand active Steam users who were pissed enough to actually go join some group. This is not "just typical whine thread", no sir. Valve did many questionable things but they really hit a mother lode of anger with this one.
ONCE AGAIN...my posts were directed at the people who started a similar thread requesting localized pricing. Now that it's being implemented, those same people are complaining about differences in pricing.

jalf
12-28-2008, 09:20 AM
smooth: So why don't you:
1: report those posts for being off-topic, and
2: Complain about them in *those* threads?

Instead, you prefer to do the same thing, trying to derail another, completely unrelated thread with your own ranting and rambling.

This thread is *not* about the soldier update or Titan Quest. If those are the things you wish to talk about, this is not the thread for you.

smooth
12-28-2008, 09:27 AM
smooth: So why don't you:
1: report those posts for being off-topic, and
2: Complain about them in *those* threads?

Instead, you prefer to do the same thing, trying to derail another, completely unrelated thread with your own ranting and rambling.

This thread is *not* about the soldier update or Titan Quest. If those are the things you wish to talk about, this is not the thread for you.
Strange, I've been posting about the EU commission and pointing out that:
a. the opening post was incorrect about the claim that it ruled Apple would have to change its pricing structure
b. steam prices are higher than US retail prices

Since much of the complaint is that Valve is doing something illegal or EU customers are being treated unfairly because steam prices are not the same or lower than retail, those points are perfectly relevant to this thread.

Hence, those arguments are baseless. If you feel that is derailing the thread, go ahead and report me. I have been reporting posts as I see fit and you can see the results by the users who have been banned thus far.

I brought those other points up in direct response to the question of why US users feel compelled to post one-liners in this thread...we're sick of euro players doing it in other threads and then personally attacking us instead of responding to the valid points I've raised in this one.

case in point, the guy above me. there are more of those trashy posts than the ones chopstix posted. I don't see you guys admonishing those silly posts...

jalf
12-28-2008, 09:31 AM
Strange, except for the times you guys keep asking what my interest in this thread is, I've been posting about the EU commission and pointing out that:
a. the opening post was incorrect about the claim that it ruled Apple would have to change its pricing structure
b. steam prices are higher than US retail prices

And how does this relate to your rambling posts about the soldier update, about chopstix' gender and nationality, calling me a twit, or about whether or not we Europeans actually have games on our Steam accounts or how we'd behave if they were free?

Yes, you've made one or two relevant posts. I fail to see how that justifies the 20 troll posts you made trying to derail the thread.

Kingston
12-28-2008, 09:35 AM
Steam has lost a customer.

smooth
12-28-2008, 09:39 AM
And how does this relate to your rambling posts about the soldier update, about chopstix' gender and nationality, calling me a twit, or about whether or not we Europeans actually have games on our Steam accounts or how we'd behave if they were free?

Yes, you've made one or two relevant posts. I fail to see how that justifies the 20 troll posts you made trying to derail the thread.
Chopstix brought up her own gender and her nationality as a basis for her opinion.

I never called you a twit, you have me confused with someone else. I certainly have not posted 20 troll posts. The one chopstix quoted is the only post where I wasn't directly discussing the points relevant to the thread.

Now that you've given up on arguing over your incorrect assessment of the EU's position on this matter, I see that you're back to trying to argue in circles.

What exactly is your point?
What you're doing right now is going nowhere and certainly appears to be derailing the thread, if anything. Stick to the issues.

jalf
12-28-2008, 09:50 AM
Chopstix brought up her own gender and her nationality as a basis for her opinion.
And you put it in quotes, because you can't really believe that girls exist on the internet. So she's not a she, but a "she".


I never called you a twit
What a shame I reported the post before you edited it out, eh?
Not that I think "snot-nosed brats" is a huge improvement. But eh, denial is a wonderful power. I can see you've mastered it to perfection.


Now that you've given up on arguing over your incorrect assessment of the EU's position on this matter, I see that you're back to trying to argue in circles.

Which incorrect assessment was this? The only assessment I made of the EU's position on the matter was that I doubted they could do anything...

I don't think I'm the one arguing in circles.

Karma_Police
12-28-2008, 09:53 AM
...

Hey King. I was trying to be funny... Obviously, I failed. No, I'm not American.


On another note,
We don't hate Valve, and we don't want Steam to be destroyed. At least I don't. We already paid more than what we could find in other places in the old store, be it retail or other on-line stores, and yet we kept buying. The difference was reasonable. I didn't even buy anything outside steam before this update. Now I know better.


The reason for this thread is because this time it was a little too much, on our opinion. Yes, we now know that developers/publishers are to blame too, since the story seems to be that Valve presented some prices, and they said Yes.
But you also have to understand we didn't know this in the beginning. And we don't know because Valve told us. This information came out little by little on threads on another forums. So, don't be surprised if not everyone is aware of that fact.


And yes, there is always someone complaining about something on steam, but somehow they didn't span a thread with 150+ pages and growing, and a group with 11,327+ members. Not that it gives this complaint any more credibility or reason, but I think it makes it somehow different from other complaints.


Last, about RRP.

I don't know if play.com or amazon are an authority on RRP, but here's a small list:
Left 4 Dead: RRP: £34.99, steam sells it at £26.99
Fallout 3: RRP: £34.99, steam sells it at £26.99
GTA IV: RRP: £34.99, steam sells it at £26.99

I think you get the picture. They are not following the RRP, so it's not an excuse for the prices.

Europhoria
12-28-2008, 09:54 AM
:rolleyes: This is only getting worse.

Smurfy12
12-28-2008, 09:55 AM
Hey, 2500 posts.

Arnstone88
12-28-2008, 09:56 AM
And no, US retail is not much cheaper than steam (atleast not for the newer games). Online retailers sell their games at practically the same prices, and physical stores sell them at slightly higher prices, unless it's a sale, or a special offer (much like with Steam).

But the discussion here is not about the US prices, it's about Steam that over night raised all their prices with nearly 40% without any obvious reason, other that to include a manditory high VAT tax (higher than anybody anywhere use), even where they don't pay VAT taxes on digital distributions.

chokke
12-28-2008, 10:09 AM
Holy ♥♥♥♥ this thread has turned into a flame war.

Well, there isn't much more to be said untill Valve comes with an offisial responce.
Until that we will have lots of "you suck", "left4dead cost me (nanana) euro and I can buy it for (less nanana) euro, this translates to (made up money) which is alot buuhuu".

I think we can all agree that this is a rather sad chapter in Valves history, but a good one for EA.

(Though I wouldn't call 10 % discount on a new game a sale ;) ).

Smurfy12
12-28-2008, 10:11 AM
I don't know if you guys know, but this thread makes you all look like a bunch of whiny ♥♥♥♥♥es.

Karma_Police
12-28-2008, 10:16 AM
Well, there isn't much more to be said untill Valve comes with an offisial responce.
Until that we will have lots of "you suck", "left4dead cost me (nanana) euro and I can buy it for (less nanana) euro, this translates to (made up money) which is alot buuhuu".

I think we can all agree that this is a rather sad chapter in Valves history, but a good one for EA.

(Though I wouldn't call 10 % discount on a new game a sale ;) ).


There is no official response possible. What are they going to say?

a) "Hey, it's all the fault of developers/publishers." Do they really want to piss of the publishers? Not to mention we would still ask, "hey, do you want us to believe you have no influence on the prices on your own store? what kind of business are you running here?"
b) "We decided the prices with the publishers." Lose/lose. Publishers get pissed at Valve, we get pissed at Valve, everyone's pissed.
c) "It was all us. We decided the prices. Mwhahahah". :rolleyes: Well... I guess at least the publishers won't be pissed at Valve with this one.